Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I find my ball in a bride Egg
Speaker 1: Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg Friday, Frida Egg, bri Egg,
Speaker 1: Fridagg Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off
Speaker 1: of the hump course. Welcome to the Frida Egg Golf Podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Garrett Morrison and my guest today is Angela Moser.
Speaker 1: Angela was the lead associate for the construction of Pinehurst
Speaker 1: Number ten. That's a Tom dok design that opened in
Speaker 1: early April. It's the first course that Pinehurst has built
Speaker 1: since the nineties, and it's the first project for what
Speaker 1: will be called Pinehurst sand Mines. This is kind of
Speaker 1: a satellite facility about a ten minute drive from the
Speaker 1: main hub of the resort, and the land is really
Speaker 1: dramatic in this area, really different from what you see
Speaker 1: on the first nine Pinehurst courses. So this is a
Speaker 1: major project and a major opportunity for Angela Moser. Angela
Speaker 1: has worked for Tom Doak for about thirteen years at
Speaker 1: this point, but this was actually the first time she
Speaker 1: served as the lead associate on a construction job, so
Speaker 1: she was on hand earlier this week for a little
Speaker 1: media function that the resort held at the Number ten course,
Speaker 1: and after that I was able to sit down with
Speaker 1: her in the library at the Holly Inn in Pinehurst
Speaker 1: and talk a bit about the course and her career.
Speaker 1: It's a really fun conversation and that's coming up in
Speaker 1: this episode. But first a word about our sponsor, Ores
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Speaker 1: fried Egg. All right, let's get to my interview with
Speaker 1: Angela Moser. Angela, how did you find out about the
Speaker 1: Pinehurst Number ten project?
Speaker 2: So I was going to do a little road trip
Speaker 2: and play some golf and I was like, oh, perfect,
Speaker 2: where are you going. I'm like, yeah, I probably start
Speaker 2: in Pinehurst and then meander down. I really wanted to
Speaker 2: see what Brian Schneider and Blake Conan did at Old
Speaker 2: Bombwell and then also the tree farm that Kai Golby
Speaker 2: and Zach Blair shaped. And he's like, okay, well I'll
Speaker 2: meet you in Pinehurst. And that was just after our
Speaker 2: Renaissance Cup in Ireland at Sam Patrick's and turn out
Speaker 2: he caught COVID. Yeah, and I was going there by myself.
Speaker 2: When You're like, I'll send you a map look at
Speaker 2: the map and I'm like, okay, well this looks pretty cool.
Speaker 2: What is this? I was like, well, they approached me
Speaker 2: to build Pinehers No. Ten and I want you to
Speaker 2: go there pitch it to them, and then you know,
Speaker 2: you would be the lead associate. This would be your
Speaker 2: first lead job for me, and what do you think?
Speaker 2: And I'm like, that's you know, that's pretty heavy. That's
Speaker 2: a big, big, big project to start as a lead
Speaker 2: associate for Tom. There's you know, I don't want to
Speaker 2: say there's pressure. Yeah there's pressure, but it's so heavy
Speaker 2: because this whole town just loves and lives golf, and
Speaker 2: you know, you just want to do a really good job.
Speaker 2: And then of course it's not just the town. It's
Speaker 2: like it's a cradle of American golf and then there's
Speaker 2: you know, everyone from Renaissance Golf that I just felt like,
Speaker 2: I really want to make this a special place, and
Speaker 2: you know, I want them to be proud and want
Speaker 2: them to come back and say like, oh, yeah, this
Speaker 2: is this was really cool and this was really very
Speaker 2: enjoyable and turn out really really good. So I don't
Speaker 2: know if I make myself a lot of pressure, but yeah,
Speaker 2: there was there was a lot of a lot of that.
Speaker 1: Pressure can be a good thing, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it keeps you going for sure. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: What did you think when you first saw the property
Speaker 1: out there?
Speaker 2: Really grand? Like the topography is just nothing I've seen
Speaker 2: on any others course, and you know, it was undeveloped
Speaker 2: for such a long time, so that you had a
Speaker 2: lot of different vegetation out there and a lot of
Speaker 2: wildlife and it was just the sanctuary out there in
Speaker 2: the middle of nowhere, and I thought it was so beautiful.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I really really liked it. And the rolling
Speaker 2: hills of Pinehurst in North Carolina are just, you know,
Speaker 2: perfect for golf, So it was beautiful.
Speaker 1: Was there anything about the site that when you looked
Speaker 1: at it, some some detail of it that made you
Speaker 1: think that might make it a little bit tricky?
Speaker 2: The gas.
Speaker 1: Of course, Well tell me about the gas line.
Speaker 2: So there's there's a gas line that's crossing Hull one.
Speaker 2: Used to Crosshold two as well, but we avoided that.
Speaker 2: It crosses whole six, seven, eight, and eighteen, and you
Speaker 2: know you're not allowed to basically even drive your normal
Speaker 2: truck over it because you know, you don't know how
Speaker 2: deep the gas pipeline is, and yeah, you don't want
Speaker 2: to blow up.
Speaker 1: So you don't want somebody to take a bulldozer in
Speaker 1: there and hit the wrong thing.
Speaker 2: You don't want to get the bulldozer close to it.
Speaker 2: And then you also want to you know, we had
Speaker 2: special crossing points where you know, we built up dirt
Speaker 2: to have like a dirt bridge over over the gas line,
Speaker 2: and those were the only points where you could actually
Speaker 2: access from one side to the other. Yeah, so it's
Speaker 2: a bit more complicated, but I think we managed our
Speaker 2: way around.
Speaker 1: Well. You have this big kind of straight cut through
Speaker 1: the property where this gas line is, and you can
Speaker 1: see it if you're looking for it, but if you're
Speaker 1: just playing the golf course, you might not notice it.
Speaker 1: And I think that's probably a credit to the routing
Speaker 1: of the course and how the course gets across it
Speaker 1: in a variety of different ways. So, like, how did
Speaker 1: you and Tom manage that when you were, you know,
Speaker 1: coming up with the routing for the course, how do
Speaker 1: you think about like working your way around the gas
Speaker 1: line and across it in ways that didn't feel like repetitive.
Speaker 2: So basically Tom's trick is that you play over the
Speaker 2: gas line always you know, you don't have a landing
Speaker 2: area anywhere close to the gas line. So on Hold one,
Speaker 2: you have your drive and then you over it to
Speaker 2: the green and you just walk over it, and it's
Speaker 2: actually a fair way that's split up between your drive
Speaker 2: and you know, the second landing area and approach. So
Speaker 2: we renaturalized that so you don't really trying to hide
Speaker 2: it as much as we can. On Whole six, it's
Speaker 2: the same same idea, like you have your drive and
Speaker 2: your second shot is actually playing over it. And what
Speaker 2: we did is again renaturalizing the area and actually make
Speaker 2: it more looking like not like ravene is the wrong word,
Speaker 2: but like a little washy, like a wash out type
Speaker 2: of thing with native plants in it. And because it
Speaker 2: the topography on Whole six is actually you know, everything
Speaker 2: washes onto the gas line, and we didn't want the
Speaker 2: gas line to wash out. We had to just you know,
Speaker 2: slightly change the shaping of the area without you know,
Speaker 2: getting into the gas line. So there was a little
Speaker 2: bit of work to be done there. But again, you
Speaker 2: your second chot plays over it because you're crossing the
Speaker 2: hazard and the hazard, you know, is kind of part
Speaker 2: of the the gas line.
Speaker 1: What was the basic timeline for the construction of this course.
Speaker 1: It was pretty quick, right, yeah, it was.
Speaker 2: It just yeah, it just went down so quick. We
Speaker 2: normally calculate with about ten months of construction. It really
Speaker 2: depends on the site, on the soil, and you know
Speaker 2: how much help we have, you know what kind of
Speaker 2: if you have a contractor if you have the whole
Speaker 2: team behind you shaping. You know, there are a lot
Speaker 2: of things that in ful lens like the outcome on
Speaker 2: how quick you can be, how efficient you can be.
Speaker 2: And over here there were a lot of resources, you know,
Speaker 2: with the support of Pinehurst, and then we had our
Speaker 2: contractor was Labarg Renovations, So they put up a lot
Speaker 2: of people just to help and you know, get this
Speaker 2: turfed and finished as quick as possible.
Speaker 1: Was it about a year?
Speaker 2: It was less than a year.
Speaker 1: It was.
Speaker 2: So we normally calculated.
Speaker 1: It opened in the I mean it's it just recently
Speaker 1: opened now basically.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry, yeah, And so construction started on January seventeenth.
Speaker 2: I got my visa on January sixteenth because I need
Speaker 2: a work visa since I'm from Germany. So I got
Speaker 2: the email, Yes, you can pick up your passport in
Speaker 2: the embassy on January sixteenth. So my mom drove me
Speaker 2: to the embassy, picked up my password, and she drove
Speaker 2: me straight to the airport. I took the next flight,
Speaker 2: and the next day it was you know, on a bulldozer.
Speaker 1: Wow. And there was already I remember there was already
Speaker 1: kind of publicity going out about the project too at
Speaker 1: that point. I think it was in January twenty twenty
Speaker 1: three when I first heard about it, when we were
Speaker 1: kind of first reporting on it, and so it must
Speaker 1: have become real really quickly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just you know, from walking the side. I
Speaker 2: think that was I was over here in October. I
Speaker 2: was here in October and just walked the side, and
Speaker 2: then in in January. Yeah, trying to get my visa
Speaker 2: as quick as possible. Yeah, I've been here in December
Speaker 2: to just you know, meet Tom, and we had like
Speaker 2: one site visit where we both were here and looking
Speaker 2: at like, okay, clearing corridors, like how far are we
Speaker 2: clearing these holes? And then you know, all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: it's January and eighty percent of the golf course was
Speaker 2: already cleared. And I think that's kind of when they
Speaker 2: announced when Pineers announced. Oh yeah, and by the way,
Speaker 2: we're already you know, we're already clearing and you know,
Speaker 2: construction set soon. And everyone was I think everyone was
Speaker 2: taken by surprise and excitement, I think, and and yeah,
Speaker 2: it was it was amazing. And you came from Germany
Speaker 2: out of nowhere into like this excitement and it was
Speaker 2: it was just yeah, go, go go.
Speaker 1: And you were finished with shaping. Grass was going on
Speaker 1: the course by win last year November October.
Speaker 2: No Tom pointed out he approved the last green in June.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, seriously, seriously.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, now that I think about it, usually
Speaker 1: grass doesn't go down to that late in the year.
Speaker 1: But that's amazing. So it was like a like a
Speaker 1: five six month just dashed to get everything shaped.
Speaker 2: I mean, you had most of it shaped, but then
Speaker 2: they're still sure that those were greens. And then you
Speaker 2: you know, you have a couple of bunkers that you
Speaker 2: want to touch up, or you have a couple of
Speaker 2: tea still to build, so you do that. And that's
Speaker 2: after June obviously, So you know, by September we were
Speaker 2: playing all eighteen holes, and you know, if there was
Speaker 2: anything that we wanted to change or we wanted to
Speaker 2: add a tea box or something. We were able to
Speaker 2: do that still because it was September, you can you
Speaker 2: can sow it until November December, no problem.
Speaker 1: So this is your first time as a lead associate
Speaker 1: on a project, and that comes with a number of
Speaker 1: kind of managerial responsibilities. You're you're overseeing a lot of
Speaker 1: aspects of the construction. Tom Doak is on site a
Speaker 1: good bit, but is not on site all the time.
Speaker 1: You were actually living here and supervising this project. And
Speaker 1: so that seems to me to be a really different
Speaker 1: kind of role than a lot of what you did before,
Speaker 1: which was, for the most part, as I understand it, shaping,
Speaker 1: serving as one of the kind of creatives of the
Speaker 1: projects that you were doing on a bulldozer out there,
Speaker 1: focusing on features. So for you, how is being a
Speaker 1: lead associate different than being a shaper?
Speaker 2: I think I had a lot more input in terms
Speaker 2: of the architecture. It's funny, you think like, as a
Speaker 2: shaper you have a lot more you know, a lot
Speaker 2: more leeway and a lot more influence on the shapes.
Speaker 2: And you know, to some extent, yes that's true. But
Speaker 2: then sometimes I felt like, Okay, what's the overall plan. Well,
Speaker 2: I think I have a better understanding leading a project
Speaker 2: what the overall plan is. And you know, if someone
Speaker 2: else is leading and you just help out as a shaper,
Speaker 2: you're just focusing on an area and you're asking the
Speaker 2: lead associated what's the bigger picture here? What is the plan?
Speaker 2: What you know? And being that person on this job
Speaker 2: was just really cool. I so enjoyed it. It was
Speaker 2: amazing because you see so many facets of the profession
Speaker 2: that you know, yeah, we're completely completely new. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I dip my toes into you know, a little bit
Speaker 2: of supervising and leading before, but obviously not to this extent.
Speaker 2: But it was fun, and yeah, I can't wait to
Speaker 2: do it again if I get a chance.
Speaker 1: You want to do it again?
Speaker 2: Sure?
Speaker 1: So? Is there is being a lead associate? Do you
Speaker 1: think less creative than being a shaper or more creative
Speaker 1: or is it a different kind of creativity?
Speaker 2: M It has a lot to do with organizing the
Speaker 2: next steps and preparing, you know, like for example, I
Speaker 2: knew exactly when Palm would come into town, and I
Speaker 2: knew which holes he wanted to work on, or you know,
Speaker 2: I decided like, okay, this makes the most sense to
Speaker 2: work on these, and I would communicate that with him
Speaker 2: and really make sure that everything is prepared to you know,
Speaker 2: he wanted to see that kind of cut, or there
Speaker 2: were like two or three more trees that needed to
Speaker 2: be cut, or you know, you name it. I try
Speaker 2: to make sure that the site is prepared for him
Speaker 2: coming over and that we get the most out of
Speaker 2: his visit. And also his visit always comes with getting
Speaker 2: help from the senior design associate. So having Eric, Brian
Speaker 2: and Brian and Blake come over and help, you know,
Speaker 2: you want to have something prepared for them to shape
Speaker 2: the green or you know, whatever needed to be done
Speaker 2: and whatever holes we wanted to get shaped and done.
Speaker 2: You want to have those ready. You can't have that,
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we still need to clear like some of
Speaker 2: the root zones or grow up something. You want to
Speaker 2: have it already so they can just here's your bulldozer,
Speaker 2: go to you know, Hold ten both the freaking amazing
Speaker 2: green and you know, and that's what they do. And
Speaker 2: they're so fast and quick and it's inspiring, like how
Speaker 2: how greative they are, and yeah, it's just really cool.
Speaker 1: That's one of the things that's interesting about this project,
Speaker 1: and really about a lot of Tom Doak's projects. The
Speaker 1: shapers on the construction site are a variety of architects
Speaker 1: who have been working with Tom Doug for a long time.
Speaker 1: So you mentioned Brian and Brian that's Brian Slonik and
Speaker 1: Brian Schneider. Eric that's Eric Iverson, Blake Conant. All of
Speaker 1: these really experienced architects were coming to this project and
Speaker 1: shaping greens on the construction site that you were supervising.
Speaker 1: Tom Doak also shaped a couple of greens out there.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Is this you know, you've worked for a couple of
Speaker 1: other architects, but not like a lt you weren't. You
Speaker 1: haven't gone all over the place to a bunch of
Speaker 1: different architects. Is this a fairly unique way of working?
Speaker 1: Like do other architects do this where they're bringing in
Speaker 1: really experienced people like this to just shape a couple
Speaker 1: of greens.
Speaker 2: So I worked with Gil Hans for a little while
Speaker 2: and it was it was slightly different, I want to say,
Speaker 2: in terms of Gil and Jim Wagner have a really
Speaker 2: big pool of young talented architects and shapers, but you
Speaker 2: know they don't always get the chance to both the greens.
Speaker 2: Jim McGill take big pride in shaping those greens. I
Speaker 2: don't want to say that you never get a chance
Speaker 2: building greens with them. That's not absolutely not true. I
Speaker 2: shaped a couple of grains with them and it was fun.
Speaker 2: But they really like to be on the machines themselves.
Speaker 2: So it would be similar to Tom wanting to shape
Speaker 2: like ninety percent of the greens. And I think it's
Speaker 2: fair to say he's saying that a lot. I don't
Speaker 2: want to put him on a spot, but he keeps saying,
Speaker 2: like you know, Eric Iverson, Brian Schneider and Brian Slonik,
Speaker 2: they get the vision into the ground so much quicker
Speaker 2: that and so much cleaner that it is so much
Speaker 2: easier working with like experienced shapers to get something into
Speaker 2: the ground rather than doing it yourself. Now we're talking
Speaker 2: about these guys have been working with Tom for such
Speaker 2: a long time, so they we have some kind of
Speaker 2: you know, similar lingo.
Speaker 1: Right, they know what he likes.
Speaker 2: They know what he likes and if they're talking about it,
Speaker 2: what the green should do. They know exactly what he wants.
Speaker 2: And you know, part of part of the job is
Speaker 2: also and this is the fun part. It's like if
Speaker 2: you travel a lot, you have seen many places, and
Speaker 2: you know, you can only hope that you remember like oh,
Speaker 2: that really cool kicker slope on this green, or like, hey,
Speaker 2: why don't we build like you know, the green of
Speaker 2: National you know, Whole five or something. And and the
Speaker 2: thing is that you know, we know what that green does,
Speaker 2: and so do other shapers, Like we look at those
Speaker 2: shapes and whenever Tom gil Jim or looking at building
Speaker 2: a green, you have those greens in the back of
Speaker 2: your head, I want to say. And a really good
Speaker 2: example is Holly eleven out here on course number ten.
Speaker 2: You know, Tom took the inspiration from Crystal Downs the
Speaker 2: ninth hole, which is a part three uphill, and you
Speaker 2: know it's not the same hole, but it's similar. And
Speaker 2: you know that's the thing, Like you're not copy pasting,
Speaker 2: but there might be similarities. And maybe you change something
Speaker 2: or you have like you know, different bunkers, or you
Speaker 2: have like a cliff like we do, or you know,
Speaker 2: whatever it is, you're just making it unique to this place.
Speaker 2: I feel like every golf course in every site that
Speaker 2: we're looking at have their own identity and their own
Speaker 2: feel and you know this sense of place, like you know,
Speaker 2: what's growing here? What are we looking at? What's the vibe?
Speaker 2: There's so much that goes into it and just honoring
Speaker 2: that and yeah, so it. You know, we're taking some
Speaker 2: ideas of greens and off wholes, but we're making a
Speaker 2: unique all right.
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Speaker 1: slash TM. All right, let's get back to Angela Moser.
Speaker 1: So far, whole eight at Pinehurst, number ten has gotten
Speaker 1: a lot of attention, and I actually want to swerve
Speaker 1: away from that at this point because I think that
Speaker 1: there's probably enough content out there about the eighth hole
Speaker 1: at this course. If you don't know what I'm talking about,
Speaker 1: it's the hole that goes over the big humps and
Speaker 1: bumps and has a green kind of in a natural
Speaker 1: or you know, somewhat shaped punch bowl setting, and it's
Speaker 1: a unique and pretty thrilling hole. But it's been very
Speaker 1: much discussed so far, so I'm wondering if there's another
Speaker 1: hole that you think will be the second most discussed.
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny. I always thought eleven will be great,
Speaker 2: and there were you know, doubts because it's slightly uphill
Speaker 2: and you can't really see that much of the putting surface,
Speaker 2: and there were a lot of doubts about how that
Speaker 2: hole turns out. I think it turned out fantastic. Well,
Speaker 2: why don't I not start on Let's start with hold one.
Speaker 2: Hold one is very cool. I like Hold one. It's
Speaker 2: like a little bit of homage to Pineer's number two.
Speaker 2: How you know the green is perched up, it's like tilted.
Speaker 2: I really like how you know some of the bunkering,
Speaker 2: the native bunkering on the right eats in and it's
Speaker 2: very strategic. I think Hole three has such a beautiful
Speaker 2: green that Blake Conan shaped. It's so it's sitting on
Speaker 2: the ground. It's it's beautifully done. And you know, this
Speaker 2: is a very good example. Actually, I was standing with
Speaker 2: Tom and Blake on on the green side for Whole
Speaker 2: Free and Tom directed Blake's like, you know, make it
Speaker 2: a little bit like garden City. So it sits on
Speaker 2: the ground and you have, you know a couple of contras,
Speaker 2: but it's falling away. I think he nailed it. It's
Speaker 2: beautiful how the bunker are coming into play and making
Speaker 2: the whole squeeze in the right place, And you know,
Speaker 2: I think that's pretty cool. And then whole four or five, four, five, six,
Speaker 2: I think seven, eight are a really strong stretch. I
Speaker 2: really like eleven and twelve and fourteen.
Speaker 1: So the answer to the question, which hole, aside from
Speaker 1: eight do you think is going to be the most
Speaker 1: discussed is every other holes? Here's my take. I think
Speaker 1: the answer to this question, and not that this is
Speaker 1: the right answer, this is just my sense of it.
Speaker 1: I think the answer to the question which hole is
Speaker 1: going to be the most discussed aside from the one
Speaker 1: that everybody is discussing right now might be seventeen Part
Speaker 1: three across the water to a pretty unique and wild green. Now,
Speaker 1: a lot of the greens here are pretty subtle. This
Speaker 1: one is more bold. And you shape this green. I
Speaker 1: know this, and so I'm wondering if you could give
Speaker 1: me any insights into the thought process behind this hole
Speaker 1: and what you were going for with that very dramatic green.
Speaker 2: So the input that I got was I'm picturing a
Speaker 2: grain that's sloping left to right, and there might be
Speaker 2: like a bunker here or there and we'll see what
Speaker 2: you come up with. That was the input that I got,
Speaker 2: so pretty broad, pretty broad, I think, yeah, and then
Speaker 2: you know you have the pine tree in the back,
Speaker 2: and I thought like, okay, to get to a degree
Speaker 2: where the greenest fairly up from the from the lake,
Speaker 2: to be safe, you know, not building too low. The
Speaker 2: back was still going to be more for like like
Speaker 2: a punch bowl type of thing, like it has a
Speaker 2: it's not punchable, it's a it's a slope that you
Speaker 2: know you can kick in on the left and then
Speaker 2: you know the back is actually bringing your ball back,
Speaker 2: So there's a slope there that's more it. And you know,
Speaker 2: I was just playing with it, and I thought like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I really like this bunker in the front and having
Speaker 2: like a little plateau behind it where you can pin it,
Speaker 2: which is really really tough to hold it. I really
Speaker 2: liked how you had that slope in the back and
Speaker 2: you know you could feed your ball back in. And
Speaker 2: I just went down to like this front right pin location,
Speaker 2: and you know, at some point I thought like, well,
Speaker 2: we'll see what Tom thinks. It's that is a pretty
Speaker 2: tough pin. And I think the only part that he
Speaker 2: made me. Change was that plateau in the front was
Speaker 2: not deep enough. He pasts it off and it was
Speaker 2: just a couple of feet short of like what he
Speaker 2: would approve. So I had to adjust that slightly to
Speaker 2: make it work so you can hold a ball and
Speaker 2: not just always end up in that bunker. But yeah,
Speaker 2: besides that, he really liked it, you know, I remember
Speaker 2: Brian Schneider walked up like this is pretty cool.
Speaker 1: So high praise from Brian Schneider.
Speaker 2: That is high praise. I take it any time seriously.
Speaker 1: So you spent a lot of time in Pinehurst. You
Speaker 1: probably played the number two course at least a couple
Speaker 1: of times.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I played. I think I played one and a
Speaker 2: half rounds.
Speaker 1: And a half rounds, okay, perfect. I think that's enough
Speaker 1: to give a take on the course. Obviously, EOS Open
Speaker 1: is coming up, it's going to be at Pinehurst number two.
Speaker 1: When you look at Pinehurst number two, what is the
Speaker 1: thing that impresses you the most?
Speaker 2: The conjuring around the greens is exceptional. You know, you
Speaker 2: don't see a lot of push up greens that are
Speaker 2: so well conjured, so well thought through and challenging. And
Speaker 2: I could go on and on like there's they're magnificent, seriously,
Speaker 2: and the greens are the defense basically, and it depends
Speaker 2: what you hit into the green, how you hit it,
Speaker 2: where the pin is. You might have like a tiny spot,
Speaker 2: you might have, you know, a really awkward angle. So
Speaker 2: you have to be smart to you know, accept to
Speaker 2: take the bullet, lay up, use a potter, you know,
Speaker 2: whatever it is. You have to be very smart here
Speaker 2: and have a good sense of how you want to
Speaker 2: play this golf course and then good luck executing it.
Speaker 2: If you miss something, you might end up in a
Speaker 2: really tough spot. So there's a lot of defense around
Speaker 2: the green. And it's not always like a bunker. It
Speaker 2: might be a contour that you're not aware of or
Speaker 2: you didn't really see if you play the first time.
Speaker 2: So you know, there's a lot that don't rust it
Speaker 2: absolutely right out here.
Speaker 1: So did you and Tom think about how Pinehurst number
Speaker 1: ten might compare in contrast with the number two course.
Speaker 2: Well, if you're building a golf course, you know, the second, third,
Speaker 2: tenth course for a resort, you always want to be
Speaker 2: slightly different. You don't want to get mixed up with
Speaker 2: other courses, so you want to have your own identity
Speaker 2: and your own I don't want to say, look, that's
Speaker 2: not right, but you want to get off the golf
Speaker 2: course and then remember, you know what was whole seven again.
Speaker 2: You know, there's some some kind of remembering recognizing the
Speaker 2: holes you just played versus everything blending together. So there's
Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot of that. And we looked
Speaker 2: at what can we do on our hilly, very big
Speaker 2: topography site on course number ten versus a fairly flat
Speaker 2: number two. What can you get away with? Would it
Speaker 2: wash out? And you know, in terms of greens, I
Speaker 2: mean you played a couple of Tom's courses. I think
Speaker 2: one of his bests and biggest strength is that he
Speaker 2: puts a lot of different greens in the ground. And
Speaker 2: it's not just him, but the variety of greens is
Speaker 2: just one of his biggest strengths. And you know part
Speaker 2: of it is, you know, it comes through the routing
Speaker 2: because he finds the green sites and you always have,
Speaker 2: like you know, already a pitch like I said on
Speaker 2: seventeen that left to right was already naturally there. I
Speaker 2: just had to, you know, uncover a little bit more
Speaker 2: of what you see now. So he is very very
Speaker 2: good at that, and then of course if you have
Speaker 2: shapes like Eric, Brian and Brian, all of a sudden
Speaker 2: you create some cool, very very either low on the
Speaker 2: ground sitting greens or you know, pushed up and like
Speaker 2: a turtle back green of number two. And I think
Speaker 2: again like just having not the same green all the
Speaker 2: time and have different areas us on a green. That's
Speaker 2: another thing that we have on course number ten is
Speaker 2: there's sections of a green that is just slightly different
Speaker 2: than the other section. So there's a you know, there's
Speaker 2: a lot going on in terms of variety, which I
Speaker 2: think adds to the interest of a golf course.
Speaker 1: So changing topics a little bit here. You mentioned before
Speaker 1: that you're originally from Germany. You know, just to begin
Speaker 1: with golf in Germany, I don't really know a lot
Speaker 1: about it, But how would you say it's different from
Speaker 1: golf in the you know, in America or in the UK.
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, we kind of missed that window
Speaker 2: of the golden age of golf course architecture. So yeah,
Speaker 2: we do have a couple of Harry Cole golf courses,
Speaker 2: but you know, some of them did some work to
Speaker 2: the greens, to the bonker is, to sometimes everything and
Speaker 2: just the only thing that's left is for the most time,
Speaker 2: like the routing. And yes, sometimes you can see like
Speaker 2: some some of the Harry Colt's genius there, but then
Speaker 2: you keep walking and you're kind of like, okay, and
Speaker 2: now what's happening now? So you're you're at a dead
Speaker 2: end and something happened there. I heard a golf manager
Speaker 2: at some point say, if it comes to golf and
Speaker 2: golf architecture, we're more like a world country like to
Speaker 2: go and that I'm sorry for tog but you know,
Speaker 2: I think, you know, that's the thing, like we were
Speaker 2: very very proud of, you know, what we know about
Speaker 2: golf in Germany, and we're trying to achieve. But it's
Speaker 2: also about, you know, let's look outside of Germany and
Speaker 2: what's there and why is it good? And hey, let's
Speaker 2: just reach out to someone in America and see what
Speaker 2: they would suggest, you know, and this is a long
Speaker 2: way to answer your question. I got in touch with
Speaker 2: Tom because sitting in an office and designing golf courses
Speaker 2: out of a library wasn't really cutting it for me.
Speaker 2: I didn't feel that identity of the place. I didn't feel,
Speaker 2: you know how, how is the topography of the golf
Speaker 2: course or the future golf course, and I need to
Speaker 2: sense what's happening on site. And I didn't sense that
Speaker 2: when I was sitting in front of a computer screen.
Speaker 2: So you know, at some point I was pretty desperate,
Speaker 2: looked up the best golf courses in the world. Mackenzie
Speaker 2: was dead. Shit, Ross was dead, damn it, Cold was dead.
Speaker 2: And then at some point I crossed Corn Crenshaw and
Speaker 2: Tom Doak and checked them out and on their website
Speaker 2: Renaissance Golf, and Tom Doak has this amazing opportunity of
Speaker 2: the internship program. And I remember that I was writing
Speaker 2: that email straight away that I saw that, and I
Speaker 2: send that email straight away oft like I want to
Speaker 2: do this, please please please please answer my email. And
Speaker 2: this is where I'm at at the minute. But how
Speaker 2: you describe golf course architecture and how you do it
Speaker 2: and what you do makes so much more sense to me,
Speaker 2: and I want to be part of that. And you know,
Speaker 2: they replied and called me back. And I waited two
Speaker 2: years to to get the opportunity to get that internship.
Speaker 2: But for me, it was clear, I have to give everything,
Speaker 2: I have to continue and That's what I tried to
Speaker 2: do to use that opportunity to stay with them.
Speaker 1: So you did this internship back in twenty eleven. Right, Now,
Speaker 1: by that point you were already working toward being a
Speaker 1: golf architect. I guess you had become interested in golf
Speaker 1: architecture long before. I believe you played competitively when you
Speaker 1: were younger and a little bit, So how did you
Speaker 1: first start noticing golf architecture. Just to go back a
Speaker 1: little bit further, how did you go from playing competitive
Speaker 1: golf to being interested in golf courses?
Speaker 2: So I played golf every weekend somewhere else, right, So
Speaker 2: you for the very German you know, it's not a tour,
Speaker 2: but you play your age group and every weekend there's
Speaker 2: a different tournament and if it's like you know, a
Speaker 2: team event or a single event, whatever it is, it's
Speaker 2: on a different golf course. So you travel there, you play,
Speaker 2: and I'd be honest here, I don't really care how
Speaker 2: I play. For me, it was just interesting to see
Speaker 2: all these different golf courses because that's the coolest thing
Speaker 2: about golf course architecture and golf is like every golf
Speaker 2: course is different, right, So you have this endless variety
Speaker 2: of like yeah, let's I really like this place, Let's
Speaker 2: go and you know, go to Abandon or let's go
Speaker 2: to whatever. Like there's there's so many golf courses out
Speaker 2: there that you can discover, and and for me it
Speaker 2: was like I remember that it was four. I was
Speaker 2: playing somewhere close to Hamburg and there's like a part
Speaker 2: three and had like a kicker slope in the green
Speaker 2: and you know, maybe maybe there are a lot of
Speaker 2: people out there, me included, until then that thought like, okay,
Speaker 2: there's the pin, it's that that yardage. I got to
Speaker 2: shoot that like this straight and that's it. But you know,
Speaker 2: if there's a kicker slope and you have a lot
Speaker 2: more room, it might be a lot easier to just
Speaker 2: use that to get funnel to towards the pin. So
Speaker 2: I played and I thought like, well that's pretty cool, Like.
Speaker 1: Well there's more to it than just yeah for the hole,
Speaker 1: and right, there's a there's a whole golf course that
Speaker 1: kind of exists around the target.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, it's not target golf. It's like, you know,
Speaker 2: you play slopes and you you be creative. And again,
Speaker 2: like coming from Germany, I don't think there are too
Speaker 2: many slopes. So if you if you go you know
Speaker 2: to the UK and you know, play Saint Andrews or something,
Speaker 2: you know, some of the really cool old original golf courses,
Speaker 2: you have so many slopes that you can use to
Speaker 2: you know, funnel back a golf uh, you know, your
Speaker 2: golf ball and be creative. And that was the first
Speaker 2: time I saw this, and I thought, like, that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2: Didn't anyone actually think about this, not just as a golfer,
Speaker 2: but like like and it was a light bulb moment.
Speaker 2: And from there it was like, wait, is there like
Speaker 2: someone who's thinking about this seriously? Like someone built that?
Speaker 2: What a genius and you know, and it basically started there.
Speaker 2: And back then, you know, there was no book about
Speaker 2: golf course architecture in German. I didn't it didn't really
Speaker 2: cross my mind that I'm looking too much into like
Speaker 2: English books. Google was fairly new, I think, so, so
Speaker 2: you know, it was an age I want to say,
Speaker 2: where it didn't really cross my mind to you know,
Speaker 2: look further. And you know, by the time I studied
Speaker 2: landscape architecture, you know, my professors were all saying, like,
Speaker 2: that's incredibly stupid to you know, go into golf course architecture.
Speaker 2: We don't have the nineties anymore. And I basically told
Speaker 2: them like, who cares about Germany, Let's look outside of
Speaker 2: the box, you know. And I did. In scholarship in
Speaker 2: England where had professors, that was the first time that
Speaker 2: they were like, oh, that's cool, okay, why don't you
Speaker 2: go and travel and see golf courses here and then
Speaker 2: write about it and that's your essay for this course,
Speaker 2: you know. So you know, I did that and it
Speaker 2: was cool and it was different, new, and I felt
Speaker 2: like taken serious, you know, like that that is something
Speaker 2: that I want to do, and you know someone's actually
Speaker 2: listening and not shutting you down straight away. But there
Speaker 2: when I got back to Germany, I had to finish
Speaker 2: my degree just like a normal landscape architect and worked
Speaker 2: then in an office just like as an intern, to
Speaker 2: design golf courses from the computer. It was my first
Speaker 2: day in that office that I looked up, like I said,
Speaker 2: it was my first day, and I was like, I
Speaker 2: got I got back into my room and I was like,
Speaker 2: I can't do this the rest of my life. I
Speaker 2: love this, but I can't do it this way. So
Speaker 2: I needed to find a different way, and and that's
Speaker 2: when I found you know, Tom and the internship program.
Speaker 1: And yeah, what courses did you see when you were
Speaker 1: studying in the UK. It sounds like you did a
Speaker 1: little a little tour.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I definitely, you know, I saw North burk
Speaker 2: I saw Royal Dornic, I went to Hillside and World Burkdale.
Speaker 2: So most of the time, I for some reason I
Speaker 2: thought like Scottish golf is what I needed to check out.
Speaker 2: I saw, you know, I saw the old course of course.
Speaker 2: I was there during the Dunhill actually, so I saw
Speaker 2: all of the courses and that was that was just
Speaker 2: so neat to see like a historic place like that
Speaker 2: and how it plays and how it just stood the
Speaker 2: test of time. You know, it was just fascinating. I
Speaker 2: think that's the right word. It was fascinating to me,
Speaker 2: And yeah, just outstanding. If you're coming from a country,
Speaker 2: you know, again like Germany, it was just fascinating to
Speaker 2: see those golf courses and how they work and how
Speaker 2: creative they were. So that was pretty cool.
Speaker 1: What did it make you think about what you wanted
Speaker 1: to build in golf when you saw those golf courses?
Speaker 1: How did they kind of change your frame of reference
Speaker 1: for the kinds of golf courses that you wanted to build.
Speaker 2: Well, to put it frankly, like if you're if you're
Speaker 2: putting on the putting green in Germany, it's flat. If
Speaker 2: you're putting the ladies putting.
Speaker 3: Green and Saint Andrew's, you know flat, you have the
Speaker 3: opposite of flat, and you have a lot of fun
Speaker 3: and it's so cool, and you.
Speaker 2: Know, it just blew my mind and I was like, well,
Speaker 2: this is different, this is so different, and why don't
Speaker 2: we do this? And where where did this get lost?
Speaker 2: Why aren't we building something like this anymore?
Speaker 1: Do you have a hope at some point to do
Speaker 1: more work in Germany? I know you've done some you've
Speaker 1: done some projects in Germany, but is there a part
Speaker 1: of you that you know just wants to completely revolutionize
Speaker 1: golf golf in Germany, like turn it, turn it in
Speaker 1: a different direction.
Speaker 2: I would love to, Yes, Germany stays my home. And
Speaker 2: you know what I would really love to do is
Speaker 2: restore a Harry Colt golf course properly and just really
Speaker 2: put it back to the glory that you know Harry
Speaker 2: Harry Cole golf course is I don't know if there's
Speaker 2: ever going to be a possibility to build a new
Speaker 2: golf course in Germany. There are a lot of restrictions,
Speaker 2: and there's also the problem of a lot of the
Speaker 2: land that is owned. Most of the time those are
Speaker 2: too small for a golf course. So it's not like
Speaker 2: in the US where you have like a big area
Speaker 2: that is available, you know, and you can build like
Speaker 2: one course or two or three. So, you know, I
Speaker 2: think it's pretty tough. They're not many golf courses getting
Speaker 2: built in Germany anymore, to the point of my professor
Speaker 2: back then. But you know, if there's an opportunity, I
Speaker 2: wouldn't say no. But just again, like I learned from
Speaker 2: someone like Tom Doag, how important it is to get
Speaker 2: a good piece of ground. So there are a lot
Speaker 2: of things that would dictate that narrative.
Speaker 1: So most recently, I believe just before you came back
Speaker 1: to pine Hurst to do this whole function at Pinehurst
Speaker 1: number ten that you and I were both attending earlier
Speaker 1: today you were working in Scotland. So what's what's going
Speaker 1: on with Cabot Highlands. This is that this is at
Speaker 1: the facility formerly known as Castle Stewart, which started with
Speaker 1: a gil Hants course purchased by Cabot and now a
Speaker 1: second course designed by Tom Doak is going in. What
Speaker 1: what did you do at Cabot Highlands And how's that
Speaker 1: project going?
Speaker 2: I think it's going to be outstanding. My colleague Clyde
Speaker 2: Johnson is leading this. It's also his first time that
Speaker 2: he's the lead associate, and I think he's doing a
Speaker 2: fantastic job. You know, shaping looks outstanding and really cool.
Speaker 2: It was this falls right into his alley building links
Speaker 2: golf courses, so there's a lot of fun shots there.
Speaker 2: And what did I do? You know? I told him
Speaker 2: just tell me where you need help. You know. That's
Speaker 2: that's the thing.
Speaker 1: Like it's kind of like how the the Brians and
Speaker 1: Eric and did you on your project here?
Speaker 2: Exactly? Like you know, they were amazing. They came over.
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, where do you want me to work?
Speaker 2: And you know, if I had a you know, something
Speaker 2: that I really needed to figure out, you know, I
Speaker 2: would just say like would you mind doing like this
Speaker 2: area here? And I know how how big of a
Speaker 2: help it is to just you don't care, you just
Speaker 2: help whatever needs to be done. If it's a T box,
Speaker 2: if it's a bunker, if it's just native area somewhere,
Speaker 2: if it's a green, fantastic, sure. But whatever he needed,
Speaker 2: and I think there was what I did. It was
Speaker 2: like I did a little change on one of the
Speaker 2: greens that he built, and then did big for fair
Speaker 2: way moving, a movement fairway shaping. And then what else?
Speaker 2: Did I do a cut through, like you know, one
Speaker 2: area so you can see it from the tea box
Speaker 2: so it kind of looks natural. So yeah, a couple
Speaker 2: of things that I did. But you know, again, whatever
Speaker 2: he wanted me to do, I was happy to just
Speaker 2: help because I I understand like how helpful that is
Speaker 2: to just send someone over and know that, okay, they're
Speaker 2: going to figure it out, and after that I can
Speaker 2: just cross it off my list. So you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: I was just happy to be over there.
Speaker 1: Do you have a preference between shaping greens versus shaping
Speaker 1: bunkers or doing some other kind of work on a
Speaker 1: golf course? You know, there are some architects out there
Speaker 1: who really specialize in bunkers. I'm thinking of Jeff Bradley
Speaker 1: who works for Corn Crenshaw. He has really owned this
Speaker 1: bunker shaping thing for for the past couple of decades.
Speaker 1: There are other architects who really enjoy get a lot
Speaker 1: out of shaping greens and feel they have some sort
Speaker 1: of expertise in that area. Do you have a preference
Speaker 1: along those lines?
Speaker 2: I think that's another area where I would say we
Speaker 2: were taught differently, you know, we grew up differently under Tom.
Speaker 1: So this is maybe a difference between Coren Crenshaw's operation, yeah,
Speaker 1: and Tom Doak's operation. It does seem like, you know,
Speaker 1: that's a good point. It seems like a lot of
Speaker 1: Coren Crenshaw shapers start to specialize in some aspect of
Speaker 1: the construction process. Not not all of them, but but
Speaker 1: there you know, yeah, there are certain shapers who really
Speaker 1: do focus on bunkers, and there are others who really
Speaker 1: do focus on greens.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I don't I don't think that really that
Speaker 2: aspect really fits us, Like, you know, whatever needs to
Speaker 2: be done basicly and you know out here Eric I
Speaker 2: was in shape to a couple of tea boxes. Took
Speaker 2: him no time. But you know, this child's play for Yeah, okay, sure,
Speaker 2: I'll vote you some pease, which is super nice.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, Angela, thank you for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Really appreciate it. Congratulations on the work at Pinehurst number
Speaker 1: ten and looking forward to seeing what else you do.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Garrett, what a pleasure to be here.
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