1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: I was brought up to respect women. End up, I've 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: never lost that respect. I've added to it, I've contributed 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: to it. It's the middle of the night, New York City, 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,119 Speaker 1: and Bob Guccioni, the controversial founder and longtime publisher of 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: Penthouse Magazine, is being interviewed on the CBS show Nightwatch. 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: Nightwatch was an overnight news show that aired from two 7 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: to six in the morning, a time when you could 8 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: talk more freely about topics like sexual desire and porn 9 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: on network TV. I think that if you're looking at 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: a woman's anatomy, it must be beautiful in all of 11 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: its pots. We cannot take one part of the anatomy 12 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: and say that this is vulgar or obscene and that 13 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: the rest of it is okay, the rest of it 14 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: is decent. That just simply doesn't work. Since you at 15 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: the time of this interview, Bob Guccioni is one of 16 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: the richest men in the world. He's on the Forbes 17 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: four hundred list, one of the most powerful publishers in 18 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: America back when publishers had real power, and he's not 19 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: humble or shy about any of it. I'm gonna workaholic. 20 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 1: I work day and nine. I work seven days a 21 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: week at least twenty hours a day. I sleep in 22 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: average of three hours a night, and I don't go 23 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: anywhere socially. I do not surround myself with celebrities. I'm 24 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: not staw struck. Bob's wearing a creamy white silk shirt 25 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: that's unbuttoned nearly to his navel. His chest, hair is out, 26 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: his skins overtan. There are a dozen or more gold 27 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: chains around his neck. Though the interview takes place in 28 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: the early eighties, his look is full disco. He's the 29 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: picture of seventies masculinity, even a caricature of it. I've 30 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: got a good reputation with the girls that I've always 31 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: worked with in the past. You look after our girls, 32 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:47,199 Speaker 1: working carefully. The host of night Watch is longtime anchor 33 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: Christopher Glenn, who looks particularly juxtaposed next to Bob, like 34 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: a Clark can't stand in a square. Glenn, like most 35 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: journalists at this time, is trying to knock Guccioni down 36 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,559 Speaker 1: a notch, corner him on a number of fronts. Since 37 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:09,679 Speaker 1: you started working in the area quote Men's Magazines, has 38 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: your personal attitude about women changed to a lot of 39 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: people say you're just an exploiter of women. Well, you know, 40 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: they can say what they like. My attitude toward women, 41 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: if anything, has grown more respectful over the years. In 42 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: what ways what I've come to understand them a lot better. 43 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: When I produced the women's magazine, some Musico cooled Viva, 44 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: which was very successful with the readership. The magazine he's 45 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: talking about, Viva, was a splashy but little known feminist 46 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: corn magazine Bob published a decade before this interview, from 47 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three until it was forced to fold it 48 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy eight. In addition to its groundbreaking full 49 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 1: frontal male nudes, beev was smart and cool. It treated 50 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: its readers like they had brains, publishing work by writers 51 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: like Mickey Giovanni were not a Adler and Erica John 52 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: and it was stylish. Anna Wintour was actually Viva's fashion 53 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: editor from nineteen seventy six to nineteen seventy eight. Viva 54 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: was a reflection of its time, a direct product of 55 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: the seventy sexual revolution, but maybe even more importantly, the 56 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: women's liberation movement. There is a serious questioning of the 57 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 1: role of women in our society. What do you think 58 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: men are doing wrong? They're in charge? Why do I 59 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: want it? Na? Viva came out fifty years ago, and 60 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: its story has more parallels to the issues around sexual 61 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: liberation that we're all still grappling with today than I 62 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: could have possibly imagined. But still almost no one remembers it, 63 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: and if they do, they get the story wrong. They 64 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: turn Viva into a joke about Dick's fashionable feminism plus 65 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: penises wrapped up in a blousy pussy bow que the 66 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: bow Chick a bow Wow music at the end. It's 67 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: safe to say that perceptions about female sexuality and empowerment 68 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: have been misconstrued and straight up dismissed by men since forever. 69 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: It's just unfortunate. Viva Zone. Bob GUCCIONI, porn mogul and 70 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 1: publisher of one of the first erotic women's magazines, was 71 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 1: just as clueless as the rest of them. But when 72 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: I started Viva, I thought I knew everything there was 73 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: to know about women. I thought I was the smartest 74 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: guy in the world as far as women were concerned. 75 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: I learned as a result of that experience, as a 76 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: result of working deeply with women, that I didn't begin 77 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: to know them, nor does any other man I know. 78 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: But what were these misunderstood women of Viva trained to 79 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: say with their feminist porn magazine And could they actually 80 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: pull it off? From crooked media? And iHeartMedia, I'm Jennifer 81 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: Romilini and this is stiffed. Episode one, Good Girls Walk 82 00:04:55,520 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: into a porn Magazine, Act one, the first word. The 83 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: first time I ever saw Viva magazine was in the 84 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 1: mid two thousands. Back then, I was working as a 85 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 1: mid level editor at a popular Conde Nast women's magazine 86 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 1: called Lucky, sitting at a desk just a few floors 87 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: down from Vogue. Before Lucky, I'd worked in junior positions 88 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: at Glamour and Cosmo, and women's magazines were then and 89 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: had always been messy, a lot of putting lipstick on 90 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: the internalized misogyny pig, a lot of exclusionary self esteem 91 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: eroding word salads that were beneath all of us, even 92 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: if we didn't really know we deserved better at the time. 93 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: But when I discovered Viva, I discovered that things hadn't 94 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: always been this way, and I was surprised to find 95 00:05:54,040 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: out that this revolutionary, cool, progressive women's porn magazine. All 96 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: seemed to have started with a man, Bob Guccioni, the 97 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: famous founder of the men's magazine Penhouse. I became very 98 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 1: interested in what was happening on the news stands, and 99 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: I saw that Playboy was the only men's magazine of 100 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: its kind and occurred to me in a very simplistic way, 101 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: that one might produce the British answer to Playboy. I 102 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: had no ideas in the beginning that I would ever 103 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: take this magazine to the United States. That's Bob again 104 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: on Night Watch, describing why he first decided to create Penhouse. 105 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: As you heard, he came up with the idea while 106 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: living in London with his family at the time. He's 107 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,559 Speaker 1: just a family man with a big idea. But once 108 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: he actually finishes the first physical issue of Penhouse magazine. 109 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: It wasn't until I actually held the first issue in 110 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: my hand and looked at it and said to myself, 111 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: my god, this is something specialist, is something great. And 112 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: at that moment in time, as it came off the press, 113 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: the first bound copy, I looked at him and I said, 114 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: I'm going to take this to America. Enter a young 115 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: aspiring magazine editor named Gay Bryant. I'd gotten this job 116 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: as the first literally the first employee you've Penthouse in 117 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: the United States. You might know Gay Bryant now for 118 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: her work as the former editor in chief of popular 119 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:20,679 Speaker 1: women's magazines like Mirabella, Working a Woman and Family Circle, 120 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: or for popularizing the term glass ceiling to describe barriers 121 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: women face in their careers. But before all that, back 122 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: in the sixties, Gay's just a girl in her twenties 123 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: with big career dreams, even if she's not entirely sure 124 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: how to make them happen. I grew up in a 125 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: time in England where you really sort of expected to 126 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: get married and that was about it. But I did 127 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: like writing. Being a nice English, well brought over English girl. 128 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: I was just sort of quiet and I learned fast 129 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: and I just absorbed it all. In other words, I 130 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: was nice, well behaved and a good listener. That was 131 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: the secret of my success. When Gay meets Bob GUCCIONI, 132 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: she's just a junior copy editor freelancing for Penhouse UK 133 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: before Bob offers her a big opportunity. It's her first break. Hey, 134 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: we're thinking of starting up in America and if you 135 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: get there, maybe you can get a job, so gay 136 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: moves to New York City to be the editor of 137 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: Penthouse US in the fall of nineteen sixty nine. She'd 138 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: never been to America before, and she knew almost no one, 139 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: but her new job at Penthouse kept her busy. I 140 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: was literally the only employee, so I did everything. You 141 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: had to know how to do covers that made guys 142 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: pick up the magazine and pay their money, And you 143 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: had to learn how to get advertising. You had to 144 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: learn the business. Gaye starts as a Penhouse employee, but 145 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: she's there for the beginning of Viva. And even though 146 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: she's one of the only people president Viva's start, you 147 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't know this because her name is strangely nowhere on 148 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 1: Viva's first masthead. It's an oversight that will turn out 149 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: to be likely very intentional. But I'm getting way ahead 150 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: of myself. When gay first arrives in New York, this 151 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: buttoned up English girl is thrust no pun into an 152 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: entirely new world. But like she said, she's a fast learner. 153 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 1: She adapts quickly. And how did being a nice a 154 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: nice girl? How did that go along with working at 155 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: a porn magazine? Did you? How did you negotiate that. 156 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: I think I bought the line that it wasn't really 157 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: a porn magazine. It was a new product tackling the market, 158 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: and it was part of it. Like a David and 159 00:09:54,640 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: Goliath battle in the magazine newstand world the Golia Here's Playboy, 160 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: run by Bob's arch nemesis Hugh Hefner in the early seventies, 161 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: the porn landscape is still mainly limited to two men's magazines, Playboy, 162 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: the reliable old timer and Penhouse, the scrappy upstart. In fact, 163 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: Playboys around for almost two decades before Bob comes along 164 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 1: with Penhouse. For a long time it was the only 165 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: game in town. Here's Bob. Playboy had been so successful 166 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: for so long that they didn't recognize the possibility of 167 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: a threat. They didn't recognize any kind of competition. Playboy 168 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: was locked into a situation governed and controlled by its advertisers. 169 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: I didn't have any advertises when I gave into the market, 170 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,839 Speaker 1: so I had nobody to bow to what cowtown do. 171 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: I did what I felt was necessary, what was right, 172 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: and what Bob thought was right, publishing a magazine that 173 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: was much more explicit than Playboy. Playboy came out of 174 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: the conservative fifties. It had an old fashioned, gentlemanly vibe. 175 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: Was widely considered respectable pornography just some preppy, naughty boys 176 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: being boys stuff. And one big reason for this was 177 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: Hugh Hefner never showed full frontal nudes. But Bob Gucci 178 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: on his whole sex vibe is much more naturalistic than Half's. 179 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: He's not into this sanitized sexual innuendo. He's over Americans 180 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: hang ups about bodies and sex. Here he is explaining 181 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 1: in an interview on Arlene Herson's cable Access Showing the eighties, 182 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,079 Speaker 1: I determined by myself that it was wrong to publish 183 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: pictures of girls where you didn't see that the pubist, 184 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: because that is, to me, one of the most beautiful 185 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: pots of a woman's body, and I felt that the 186 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: world should look at it that way, and so we 187 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: did it. We took the step. It was daring at 188 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: the time, I suppose, but I really wasn't afraid of 189 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: what I was doing. I thought I was doing the 190 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: right thing, and I was prepared to defend that position. 191 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: But maybe more than anything, Bob sees more graphic nudity 192 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: as a smart business move. He thinks he can beat 193 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: Heffner by going bigger, by showing more. I knew then 194 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: and lay with that first issue, though, I come to 195 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: America with it, and that I would do battle with Playboy, 196 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: and that I would eventually take the market. So Bob 197 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: shows Pubic Hair and Penthouse basically from the jump, setting 198 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: off a public battle that half aptly deemed the Pubic Wars. 199 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: Penthouse shows Pubic Haare, Playboy shows Pubicare, Penthouse shows Labia, 200 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: Playboy shows Labia, and then well on it goes. So 201 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: Bob's image is sleazy lethario, but in reality he's a 202 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:42,199 Speaker 1: hyper ambitious workaholic. He works tirelessly on Penthouse, and it shows. 203 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: It's US circulation numbers grow to millions within months, it 204 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: sells out in newsstands, the carry it, and it is 205 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: quickly one of the biggest magazine success stories of all time. 206 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: It's a cash cow that, unlike its competitors, is run 207 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: on a shoe string, which makes it the more of 208 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: a cash cow. And though Gay Bryant was hired on 209 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: as the editor, she picks up quick to Bob's business 210 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: savvy and in early nineteen seventy three, after four years 211 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: working for Bob and helping him build Penhouse. I began 212 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: to think, Gee, you know, why can't women who are 213 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:24,079 Speaker 1: now part of the sexual revolution and the women's movement 214 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: and so on, why can't they have a magazine like 215 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: this for them? Kay Bryant suddenly had a magazine idea 216 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: of her own, and she shares it with her male 217 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: colleague at Penhouse. I went and talk to Ernie, the 218 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: publishing expert there, and I said, you know, I think 219 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: the company should do a magazine for women, a sexy magazine. 220 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: It's time. And he said, yeah, pretty idea. Why don't 221 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: you write up a proposal and I'll pass it up 222 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:57,079 Speaker 1: to Bob. Gay's excited. She gets to work right away. 223 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: She's got lots of ideas. I wrote up the proposal. 224 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: I cooled it Mia because at the time Mia Farrow 225 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 1: was like cool and intelligence and draw all those things. 226 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: I gave it to Ernie, Ernie gave it well, I 227 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: don't know, I guess Ernie gave it to Bob. Nothing. Nothing. 228 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: And by the time Gay here's back, Well, the magazine 229 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: she pitched is about to get green lit, but not 230 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: necessarily in the way she might have hoped. Act to 231 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: an unexploited resource. Here's the thing, Gay Bryant wasn't the 232 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: only woman working for Penthouse and coming up with big 233 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: innovative ideas for Bob. And we'll get back to her 234 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: magazine proposal and the response to it in just a minute, 235 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: but first it's important to talk about Bob and his 236 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: hiring practices because for the time they were pretty unique. 237 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: In the early seventies, Bob Guccioni hired tons of women. 238 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: He hired them, he promoted them, he gave them big titles. 239 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy four, you either went to Nis magazine 240 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: or you went to Penthouse because there was no other 241 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: place of his hiring women. That's a former Penthouse executive 242 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: named Nancy Lewinter speaking in the twenty thirteen Bob Guccioni 243 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: documentary Filthy Gorgeous. She's talking about magazine publicity and advertising, 244 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: but this applied to editorial too. Here's Bob's partner, Kathy 245 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: Keaton from the same documentary. Bob Guccioni was very smart. 246 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: He understood that women were an unexploited resource. Hiring women 247 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: was something Bob was known for, a big deal, something 248 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: he bragged about all the time. This is Bob again 249 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: on Night Watch in his interview with Christopher Glenn. You 250 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: have some rather high ranking officers of your organization. Are women? 251 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: Are they now? Yes? In fact, the three highest paid 252 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: individuals are women, and we have many more women executives 253 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: than we have men. And this has done simply because 254 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: I think they do a better job. And Guccioni may 255 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: have thought that women did a better job, but that 256 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: didn't mean he always let them do it. And if 257 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: he didn't let them do their jobs, if he sidelined 258 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: them or took credit for their work, the women who 259 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: worked for Bob Guccioni, well, they had little recourse. Remember 260 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: this is the seventies and the professional landscape for women 261 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: is not great. Yes, we're in the middle of the 262 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: women's liberation movement. It's a time of radical progressive change 263 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: for women. Sure, but women still can't apply for a 264 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: loan or get credit cards in their own name, and 265 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: sexual harassment is rampant in most industries, more the rule 266 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: than the exception. So women who wanted to work at 267 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,439 Speaker 1: this time often took what they could get. Working for 268 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: a porn king like Bob Guccioni, who gave them opportunities 269 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: was often worth the price of admission. I started working 270 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: at Penthouse actually when I was seventeen, as a temporary 271 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: secretary during the summer between high school and college, my 272 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: very first job except for babysitting. But yeah, that's Robin Walliner. 273 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 1: Robin's a former executive at c NEET and the founder 274 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: of Parenting magazine. You can imagine the reactions of my 275 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: parents to their seventeen year old daughter working at this place. 276 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: Parent approval or no. Working at Penhouse is the job 277 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: that helps put Robin through college. But while Robin is 278 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: finishing her degree at Cornell and working part time at Penhouse, 279 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: Gay Brian is running Penhouse's editorial and waiting to hear 280 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: back about her new magazine Idea and future Viva editor. 281 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: Pat Lindon's a fresh faced young reporter, a Berkeley graduate, 282 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: working her first magazine job. The first time I spoke 283 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: with Pat, it was over the phone. So I went 284 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: to work for Newsweek, and I was thrilled at some 285 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: fifty four dollars a week for six months until and 286 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: I was told, this is a really good job for 287 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: a woman. At Newsweek. Pat's hired as a quote editorial assistant, 288 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: but she's doing a lot more. She reports on local 289 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: and national politics, establishes high level sources, and even break stories, 290 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: but she's forced to give those stories to established male journalists, 291 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: men who get the buyelines and all the credit for 292 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 1: her work. For all the female reporters at Newsweek's work, 293 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: we decided that we wanted to get recognized on the 294 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: masthead for what we were doing. We didn't want to 295 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: be called editorial assistance anymore, and we wanted to be writers, correspondents, 296 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Pat's a key witness and a 297 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:56,120 Speaker 1: landmark gender discrimination suit against Newsweek, a case brought by 298 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: forty six of the magazine's female journalists that changes publishing 299 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: workplaces forever, A case that inspires the book Good Girl's 300 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: Revolt that was later turned into the twenty fifteen TV 301 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: show of the same name. Women like Pat and Robin 302 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: and Gay are all trying to sort out who they are, 303 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 1: both professionally and personally. Here's Pat again, this time not 304 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: over the phone. We had no idea what we were 305 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: going to do or if we were going to do anything, 306 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 1: but we started going to these consciousness raising groups. Consciousness 307 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: raising groups literally groups of women sitting around and talking 308 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: without men were incredibly popular with second wave feminists in 309 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: the late sixties and early seventies, particularly in New York. 310 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: Women would sit around Network Bitch and share stories about 311 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: being moms, their careers, and their sex lives openly and 312 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: ways they hadn't before. And it's not just Pat attending. 313 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: Gay Bryant belongs to a women's consciousness raising group two 314 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: and on one Summer nine in nineteen seventy three, She's 315 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: got a lot to talk about, a lot to unload. 316 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: Remember Gay's big magazine proposal. Well, after months, She's finally 317 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: got an update, and it's from Nora Efron, of all people. Yes, 318 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: that Nora Ephron, the one behind when Harry met Sally 319 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: sleepless in Seattle feeling bad about her neck. I opened 320 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 1: up New York Magazine and Bob Guccioni is telling I 321 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: think it was Nora Efron in an interview about how 322 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 1: he was gonna start a really cool new erotic magazine 323 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 1: for women. Bob doesn't say the name of the magazine, 324 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: But for Gay this announcement is awfully coincidental, suspiciously so 325 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: Gay Shore Bob is screwing her over stealing her idea 326 00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: get along story short, I was pretty pissed off. So 327 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: I was in some consciousness raising group with other female 328 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: writers and editors, and I told them the story, and 329 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: I told them how outrageous it was Gay's venting, and 330 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: like anyone who's had a man or any boss take 331 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: credit for their idea, she's flooded with rage, incensed. And 332 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: one of them called Nora, and Nora interviewed me, and 333 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: that too, appeared in New York Magazine, saying I had 334 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: had the idea, but not everyone agrees with Gay's account. 335 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: It was entirely his idea, and I was great. Okay. 336 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 1: So a big voice missing from this series is Bob Guccioni. 337 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: He unfortunately passed away in twenty and ten, but we 338 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: did have the privilege of speaking to his son, Bob 339 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: Guccioni Junior. It was near the beginning and as he 340 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: was thinking it through, but he felt that women wanted 341 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: the same kind of a magazine that men wanted. Bob 342 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: Junior is one of the few people still alive who 343 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: worked at Viva from the start. He'd go on to 344 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: have his own success full career in publishing as the 345 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: founder and publisher of the music magazine's Spin, but in 346 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: the seventies. Bob Junior is a teenager and Viva magazine. 347 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: Well it's his first job, and as far as he's concerned, 348 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: it was his dad's creation. You know, he named it. 349 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: He named it. He just came up with the name. 350 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: He was Italian, Viva means life in Italian, and he 351 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 1: drew a logo on a note bed and the magazine 352 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: came from there. Now we can't know for sure who 353 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 1: invented the magazine. I'm inclined to believe Gay, though to 354 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: be fair, Bob's ultimate decision to green light Viva may 355 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: have come from a desire to keep pace with Hugh 356 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: Hefner Please Girl, launched just a few months before Viva. 357 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: Whatever the case, the seat of Viva is now out there. 358 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: But after spilling the beans to Nora Gaze, filled with 359 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: insecurity over her decision to talk, I do remember having 360 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: that of, oh my god, what have I done? And 361 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: to my eternal shame, I went to Bob and apologized 362 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: and said, of course, of course I didn't really mean 363 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 1: nat and of course it's your magazine. And I quit, 364 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: So Gay quits, and let's just call it really misplaced shame. 365 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: And Bob moves on finishing Viva's first issue without her. 366 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: Here's an excerpt from Bob's editor's letter in Viva Magazine's 367 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: first issue, read by writer and podcast host Alex Pappadimus. 368 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: He'll hear him read Bob throughout this series, So thank you, Alex. 369 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: The magazine you hold in your hands is my newborn child, fragile, undisciplined, 370 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: painfully vulnerable. Bob's editor's letters become a regular column in Viva, 371 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: called the first Word, and in his first words, here 372 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: Bob's introducing his Viva to the world. The first issue 373 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: is published in October of nineteen seventy three, and even 374 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: today it's a visual standout. The cover is a full 375 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: bleed shot, an extreme soft focus closeup of a woman's 376 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: face in profile, her blue, eyeshadowed eyes closed in ecstasy, 377 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: her coral lipsticked, lips parted in a provocative pout, a 378 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: pink tongue jetting out just a bit across the top 379 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: of the model's face is the Viva logo, bold white 380 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: in a font that screams seventies. The letters made from 381 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 1: a series of thin vertical somehow disco elnes. It's a 382 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 1: beautiful magazine, and Bob Guccioni was at the top of 383 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: it all. Viva is Bob Guccioni Senior's baby in a 384 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: way he writes about literally here's his editor's letter again. 385 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: This child of love is my child, and I want 386 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: to see her grow and have all the advantages of 387 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 1: success that and attention can provide. Next to this letter 388 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: is a picture of Bob himself. He's forty three here 389 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 1: and artfully lit. He looks sensitive, pensive, a thinking man's pornographer. 390 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: I want to watch her develop firm, young limbs and 391 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 1: a fine, strong posture. I want to see her acquire 392 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: the sort of education that promotes knowledgeable opinions, bold, positive 393 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: attitudes toward life and love and sex, and that creates 394 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: above all character and personality. Just to be clear, because 395 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: it's not so much from his editor's letter, Bob was 396 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: making a magazine for adult women, not unformed baby ladies. 397 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: And he was also making an erotic magazine for grown 398 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 1: women who loved men. But what did he serve up Well, 399 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 1: a lot of vulva and naked breasts. There's a fifteen 400 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: page centerfold where a mustachioed man and a brunette woman 401 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: in a bonnet caused play as old timey people on 402 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: a picnic, a picnic where all they seem to be 403 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: serving is the woman's naked body. This issue also serves 404 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: up a quick hit piece on Jane Fonda and a 405 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: comic strip called the Little Hooker where a skinny blonde 406 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: woman with big tits engages in sex with a bear. 407 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: Oh and Bob made some interesting choices when it came 408 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: to who would be writing for Viva two. Here's the lineup. 409 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 1: White male novelist JP don Levy and I sometimes do 410 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: profess the actual facts of one's existence. White male political 411 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 1: reporter Tom Wicker perhaps will relapse into that more quiescent 412 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: mood wants the current a fad for investigative journalism that 413 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: stems out of Watergate. White male photojournalist Eddie Adams. When 414 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: I did the picture, I back the AP office and 415 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: I handed him to stroll a fill and said, I 416 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: think I got somebody healing somebody and I went out 417 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: to lunch. Was that simple white male essayist slash known 418 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,639 Speaker 1: misogynist Norman Mailer. And there is an element in Women's 419 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: liberation that tera five mean. It terrifies me because it's humorists. 420 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: Because with the exception, let's say of German Greer's book, 421 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: There's been almost no recognition that the life of a 422 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: man is also difficult. Here's what Gay thought when she 423 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: first saw it. Viva was always a man's idea of 424 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: what women wanted, and I don't believe that they really 425 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: knew what women wanted. Viva was Bob's creation alone, and 426 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: he wants the world to know it. It's all pretty cross, 427 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: particularly for Gay, who had a very different vision for 428 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: this magazine. But to Gay's credit, she quickly moves on. 429 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 1: She starts her own magazine called New Dawn, a Viva competitor. 430 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: She's a big name editor and writer for decades. She's okay. 431 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: But hearing Gay's story and now knowing where it ends, 432 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: it all makes sense. This was a messy beginning to 433 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: a messy magazine in a messy time, and the women 434 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: who would become involved in trying to grow Viva as 435 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 1: an intelligent, sexy magazine for other women, they were up 436 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: against it from the beginning. Nora Efronz slams Viva's first 437 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: issue in New York Magazine with a review titled Guccioni's 438 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: miss Print. She blames Bob for all of it, including 439 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: stealing Gay's idea. Here's my producer, Megan Donnas reading Nora's peace. 440 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: The original concept of Viva was a woman's Guccioni claims otherwise, 441 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: claims that the concrete idea for Viva hit him like 442 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: some transcendental bolts last year on a transatlantic plane, but 443 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: the actual product, in fact, came from a Viva editor 444 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,719 Speaker 1: named Gay Bryant, who wrote a fifty page outline proposing 445 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: and erotic general interest magazine for intelligent women. Guccioni adopted 446 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: Bryan's idea and added a couple of fillips of his 447 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: own the name, the logo, and most important, the overall tone. 448 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: It's a tone, Nora, and turns out a lot of 449 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: people hate a tone that Bob couldn't necessarily control since 450 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,239 Speaker 1: while it was his own. Here's Bob Junior again. The 451 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: entire thing was through his lens rather than a woman's lens, 452 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: and that was a mistake. But you can understand why 453 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: Bob's senior would make this kind of mistake. He's just 454 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: off the biggest career win of his life. The success 455 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: of Penthouse is unimpeachable, and like many founders of Megas, 456 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: successful things Bob's Senior now thinks his instincts are unimpeachable too. 457 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: Penthouse was such a fantastic success because it was an 458 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: update on Playboy, the more modern, more authentic, real magazine 459 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: about men's lives in the late sixties in the seventies. 460 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: Viva was intended to be the woman's version of that. 461 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: So he traded the magazine. He thought it through, He 462 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: believed in that concept, in that vision at the time, 463 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: and he was going to execute it. And the truth 464 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: was that even with Bob's shadow hanging over it, some 465 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: women in media were happy to see Viva come into 466 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: existence at all. A feminist erotica magazine marked progress. No 467 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: matter who was making it. There was a need for 468 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: a magazine like Viva, a hole in the marketplace. So 469 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: Bob Senior's instincts are not all wrong. After Viva's first issue, 470 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: after Nora Ephron's complaints, he starts to hire highbrow female writers, 471 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: female sex therapists, and eventually editors and writers with serious 472 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: journalistic cred including Pat. I mean, Newsweek was at a 473 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: real place, you know, it was a place where it 474 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: was like boot camp, and this standards were very high. 475 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: Pat was a bona fide journalist who knew her value. 476 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: But after the Newsweek case, she didn't know where to 477 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: go next. So she started networking, kicking the professional tires, 478 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,239 Speaker 1: meeting up with other female journalists. I can't remember her 479 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: last name, and I think she was also from miss 480 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: and we were talking walking down the street and I 481 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: told her I was interested in leaving. She said, oh, well, 482 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: I know the perfect place for you, and that was Viva. 483 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: Somebody had said that, you know, some pornographer was running it. 484 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have gone there, but these were bona fide 485 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: feminists right. As for Robin, after working as a secretary 486 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: at Penthouse, the choice to move over to Viva was easy. 487 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: She knew Bob paid. I got to live in wage 488 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: at Viva. And I was quite proud to work for 489 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: Viva because we saw the jet the version of Viva 490 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: that I worked for. We were going to be the 491 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: intelligent woman's Cosmo. And here's pat Kathy Keaton had come 492 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: up with a auto for Viva, which she was using 493 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: in advertisements, and the Viva woman lives the life that 494 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: the Cosmo girl only dreams about. And we thought, well, 495 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: that's kind of cute. And even Nora Ephron's mostly scathing 496 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: review of Bob's first issue offers both Viva and its 497 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: female editors some hope. Here's Megan reading Nora again. I 498 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: realize I'm treating Viva as if it were a failure, that, 499 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: to be sure, is premature and wishful thinking. Viva may 500 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: well succeed, may find some formula that works. But did 501 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: Viva need a new formula or did it need a 502 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: new leader? Could Bob Guccioni be trusted to raise this 503 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: female newborn magazine child on his own? We're about to 504 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: find out. Stiffed as an original podcast from iHeartMedia and 505 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: Crooked Media. It's produced by Crooked Media, hosted and written 506 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 1: by me Jennifer Romalini, and produced by Megan Donnas. Sidney 507 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: Raff is our associate producer, Story editing by Mary Knock, 508 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: music sound design and engineering by Hannis Brown. Our fact 509 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: checker is Julia Paskin. Additional production support from Noafola Kito 510 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: and Inez Maza. Thanks to Alex Peppadimus for reading the 511 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 1: voice of Bob Guccioni from Crook and Media. Our executive 512 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: producers are Sarah Geismer, Katy Long, and Mary Nooff. With 513 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: special thanks to Alison Falzetta and Lyra Smith from iHeartMedia. 514 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Beth Anne Macaluso and Julia Weaver.