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Speaker 1: Internet providers are already pushing to get federal regulators to

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Speaker 1: repeal consumer privacy laws, which were just passed in October.

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Speaker 1: The rules require Internet providers like Comcast and Verizon to

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Speaker 1: ask their subscribers for permission to use and share data

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Speaker 1: about their browsing history and app usage. The so called

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Speaker 1: opt in rule was passed by the Federal Communications Commission

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Speaker 1: in October and called a historic victory by privacy advocates,

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Speaker 1: but the rule will probably be repealed before it even

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Speaker 1: goes into effect. On January second, some of the biggest

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Speaker 1: Internet providers filed a petition asking the FCC to roll

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Speaker 1: back the privacy regulations. My guests are Daniel Lyons, professor

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Speaker 1: at Boston College Law School, and Enrique Armo, professor at

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Speaker 1: Elon University Law School. Daniel, is this all about lost

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Speaker 1: revenue for the Internet providers? I think a big chunk

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Speaker 1: of it is about making sure that the same rules

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Speaker 1: apply throughout the Internet ecosystem. The problem that many of

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Speaker 1: the broadband providers have with the SCCS rules is that

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Speaker 1: it applied a more stringent rule for broadband providers like

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Speaker 1: Comcast and Verizon that it did for other parts of

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Speaker 1: other Internet companies such as Google or Facebook who are

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Speaker 1: allowed to share your information without your permission? And Enrique,

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Speaker 1: how would the rules have protected consumers privacy? Would they

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Speaker 1: really have done that? I think these these rules were

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Speaker 1: pretty significant, Dana. What basically, Um, what they did is

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Speaker 1: what you referred to as an opt in, which basically

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Speaker 1: said that any user of a broad fan service would

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Speaker 1: have to give express permission with regard to the use

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Speaker 1: and sharing of their data by the provider of their

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Speaker 1: broadband service with respect to what the FCC called um

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Speaker 1: A sensitive private information, and that was basically health and

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Speaker 1: financial information of the user, the users UH location as

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Speaker 1: established by the place where their access and their broadwa

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Speaker 1: in service and their web browsing history and any apps

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Speaker 1: that they used. So in the in the market of

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Speaker 1: of targeted targeted marketing services, this is actually UH this

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Speaker 1: is information that that that is is very helpful in

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Speaker 1: terms of monetizing Internet used for broadam providers. Dan, with

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Speaker 1: so much concern about Internet privacy, what do the Internet

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Speaker 1: providers say are the reasons that these rules should be reversed? Well?

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Speaker 1: I think again the primary concern is making sure that

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Speaker 1: there's a level competitive plane field, right, So, UM, consumer

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Speaker 1: information is the lifeblood of the Internet economy. It's the

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Speaker 1: turning of your online history into potential advertising leads that

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Speaker 1: makes it so that Google can provide free Gmail and

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Speaker 1: web searches and things like that. Uh. As long as

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Speaker 1: Google and Facebook and other companies have access to that

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Speaker 1: information at a lower barrier than Verizon and Comcast, that

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Speaker 1: it means those broadband provis can't be effective competitors to

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Speaker 1: companies like Google that dominate. They currently dominate Internet advertising.

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Speaker 1: So now the big question in REGA is there a

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Speaker 1: way to up the rules to make the rules stronger

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Speaker 1: for companies like Facebook and Google, or do we run

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Speaker 1: into problems there? Well, the interesting uh and and sticky

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Speaker 1: part there is that you know those um you know,

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Speaker 1: apps and websites are not real under the jurisdiction of

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Speaker 1: the FCC at all. You know, to the extent these

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Speaker 1: regimes are different, and Daniel certainly correct is that they

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Speaker 1: are different and even inconsistent a lot of ways. Part

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Speaker 1: of the function is that these are two different agencies

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Speaker 1: operating here. The FCC has jurisdiction UM, so it says

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Speaker 1: over the broadband access provider, and the Federal Trade Commission

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Speaker 1: has access over UM the Googles and facebooks of the world,

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Speaker 1: just basically on the jurisdiction over consumer protection. So to

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Speaker 1: to harmonize the work of those two agencies is is

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Speaker 1: would be quite difficult. And in that sense the claim

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Speaker 1: of of inconsistent regulatory regimes that Daniels talking about as

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Speaker 1: a valid one. Daniel the rule was passed by a

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Speaker 1: three to two vote with Democrats in the majority. Tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about the composition of the f

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Speaker 1: c C and what's going to be happening at the

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Speaker 1: Commission when Trump becomes president. So by statute, the FCC

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Speaker 1: is always going to be five members, three from one

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Speaker 1: party and two from the other party. The difference in

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Speaker 1: the presidential election determines who gets to be that swing vote.

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Speaker 1: So um at one of the Democrats, Jessica Rosenwors, will

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Speaker 1: step down the end of last year, and the current chairman,

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Speaker 1: Tom Wheeler, scheduled to step down the next couple of days.

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Speaker 1: That will leave the Commission with a to one Republican

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Speaker 1: majority until President Trump can fill those other two vacancies.

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Speaker 1: I would expect him to nominate one Republican and one

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Speaker 1: Democrat sometime in the next few months, but until then, UH.

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Speaker 1: From now until about January, the SEC is operating at

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Speaker 1: a two to tie and after an inauguration day it

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Speaker 1: will be a to one UH majority for the Republicans

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Speaker 1: who signaled that they have a desire to repeal this

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Speaker 1: order and several other orders that were enacted in the

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Speaker 1: last years and a half or so. So Enrique, basically

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Speaker 1: they could repeal this right after the inauguration. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: this is the kind of procedural posture of this is

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Speaker 1: that various companies are effectives have filed petitions for reconsideration,

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Speaker 1: which is a requirement for federal laws. You know, you

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Speaker 1: have basically have to ask the agency to reconsider its

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Speaker 1: decision before you ask a court to consider its decision. UM.

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Speaker 1: But if, as Daniel said, if a majority Republican commission

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Speaker 1: decides to kind of um reconsider and and and and

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Speaker 1: take these rules away, then there's there's no h there's

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Speaker 1: no challenge for the industry to make and there are

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Speaker 1: no privacy rules in place. Dan, tell me about some

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Speaker 1: of the other groups I know that add trade associations,

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Speaker 1: some of the other groups that have asked the FCC

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Speaker 1: to reconsider this rule. Yeah, and I think part of

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Speaker 1: it is UH concerned about the importance of robust competition

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Speaker 1: among the purveyors of consumer privacy or consumer information right um,

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Speaker 1: Google is the six hundred pound grill in this industry.

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Speaker 1: They've got uh significant market share of overall UM advertising revenue.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of ad agencies are concerned that, uh,

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Speaker 1: the fccs current rules will hobble broadband providers as they

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Speaker 1: attempt to try to become a counterweight to Google in

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Speaker 1: that market. And Enrique, what's the likelihood that right after

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Speaker 1: the presidential inauguration we see that this rule gets reversed.

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Speaker 1: I expect it will be pretty quick. You know. Underlying

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Speaker 1: all of this is is the decision back in the

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Speaker 1: Net Neutrality UM proceeding that the three of us actually

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Speaker 1: talked about it and several months ago, the decision to

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Speaker 1: treat broadband providers like telephone companies, and and that was

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Speaker 1: a juralsdictional step that the FCC had to take in

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Speaker 1: order to reclassify UM broadban improvisers, that's what we've been

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Speaker 1: calling title to telecommunication services, and that the FEC had

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Speaker 1: to rely on that same kind of jurisdiction to pass

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Speaker 1: these privacy rules. So if we're if net neutral at

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Speaker 1: the net neutrality domino is going to follow the Necessarily

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Speaker 1: the privacy domino will fall as well, and we'll get

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Speaker 1: back to where we were before we had robust net

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Speaker 1: neutrality protections for for Internet users. We've been talking about

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Speaker 1: Internet providers already pushing to get federal regulators to repeal

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Speaker 1: consumer privacy laws, which just we're passed in October and

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Speaker 1: haven't even gone into effect yet. I've been speaking with

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Speaker 1: Daniel Lyons, professor at Boston College Law School, and Enrique Armijo,

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Speaker 1: professor at Elon University Law School. Dan consumer advocacy groups

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Speaker 1: say they're opposed to this repeal. Obviously, they had hailed

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Speaker 1: it as a historic landmark rule and they're going to

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Speaker 1: work to oppose its repeal. Now, how much can they

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Speaker 1: really do well, It's not clear to me there's much

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Speaker 1: they can do at this juncture. Um as long as

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Speaker 1: the motion for reconsiderations pending before the f SEC, the

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Speaker 1: f SEC has the ability to review the motion, and

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Speaker 1: if it decides to grant it, it it makes the order

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Speaker 1: go away. At that point, it simply goes back to

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Speaker 1: square one with regard to consumer protection organizations to begin

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Speaker 1: working from the ground up to build their case not

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Speaker 1: just at the FEC, but also at the Federal Trade

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Speaker 1: Commission UH to try to shift from the current opt

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Speaker 1: out regime into more consumer protective rule Base Enrique, we

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Speaker 1: spoke briefly about net neutrality, UM and what that what

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Speaker 1: happened to that in the upcoming administration. So first just

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Speaker 1: briefly explain net neutrality. Sure. Net neutrality is basically the

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Speaker 1: idea that all traffic over the Internet has to be

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Speaker 1: treated the same. In the FCCS rules that were passed

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Speaker 1: earlier this year put that into effect obligations on broadband

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Speaker 1: service internet service for writers to not treat UM traffic differently,

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Speaker 1: and and in the procedure here is is similar to

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Speaker 1: to what Daniel just described. You know that the FCC

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Speaker 1: UM will be asked to reconsider those rules, and a

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Speaker 1: Republican led FCC will decide that those rules are no

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Speaker 1: longer in the public interest and repeal them or change

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Speaker 1: them in some material way. And then you know, advocates

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Speaker 1: on the other on the other side of that issue

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Speaker 1: that one the first time around. So to speaker in

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Speaker 1: a very difficult place, UM, it's very hard to get

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Speaker 1: a court um to to say that an agency was

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Speaker 1: wrong when it's changed as mine, it's mine so long

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Speaker 1: as the agency gives reasons for changing its mind, and

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Speaker 1: you know it's part of the political process. Agencies are

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Speaker 1: part of the executive branch. The fccas an independent agency,

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Speaker 1: but it still comes within the aim but of the

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Speaker 1: President and the president for the most part, it's to

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Speaker 1: set the priorities of the FCC the same way the

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Speaker 1: President O vomited when he was president. So Dan after

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Speaker 1: the inauguration, what else are you expecting? What other changes

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Speaker 1: or reversals are you expecting at the FCC or the FTC.

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Speaker 1: I think that the with regard to the FEC and

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Speaker 1: Rique is exactly right. The Net Neutrality Proceeding is the

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Speaker 1: big target that's in the current Republican commissioners sites, not

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Speaker 1: just because they're worried about net neutrality rules, but because

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Speaker 1: they're worried about the broader imposition of common carriage obligations

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Speaker 1: that those rules placed upon broadbent providers. I would expect

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Speaker 1: to see UH the FEC open a proceeding to begin

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Speaker 1: to repeal at least the classification of broadband providers under

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Speaker 1: Title too, and we might see some movement in Congress

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Speaker 1: toward a legislative compromise. Ultimately, Uh, much of the fight

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Speaker 1: over the last few years has been the difficulty that

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Speaker 1: the agency has had trying to fit modern technology into, uh,

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Speaker 1: the language of a statute that was last updated in

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Speaker 1: and much of which was written back in the nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirties to govern the old bellmanofoly. So we may start

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Speaker 1: seeing some progress toward a legislative solution, uh, where to

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Speaker 1: update the law in order to better reflect modern telecommunications networks.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's probably a win win for everybody.

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Speaker 1: In thirty seconds in Rique, how much hope do you

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Speaker 1: have for a legislative solution? Uh? Not much. Your silence,

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Speaker 1: your pause, They're probably said it all. I think it's

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Speaker 1: less than It's really hard to get Congress to move

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Speaker 1: with respective big statue. It's even old statutes like the

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Speaker 1: Telecommunications Actor. There's just so many moving parts here that

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Speaker 1: that usually efforts to kind of rewrite big statutes covered

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Speaker 1: massive parts of the economy are are are generally doomed

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Speaker 1: to failure. You know, we have both houses part of

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Speaker 1: the same party. You know, that may help move things

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Speaker 1: along because we have majorities Republican majorities in both sides.

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Speaker 1: But uh, we will have you both on again to

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Speaker 1: talk about to talk about this, and it's been a

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Speaker 1: lot of it's going to be happening. That's ENRICKI Armeo,

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Speaker 1: Professor at Elon University Law School, Daniel Lyons, professor at

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Speaker 1: Boston College Law School. Coming up, Barack Obama makes history

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Speaker 1: before he takes the less step down