1 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. We're just finishing up our fall break episodes, 3 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: so this is going to be part two of the 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: Demons of Ancient Mesopotamia that originally published ten ten, twenty 5 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: twenty four. But starting Thursday, we're going to have all 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: new Halloween episodes for you, So stick around. I guarantee 7 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: we will be back. All right, let's jump right into 8 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: the episode. 9 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 10 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,639 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 11 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: is Robert. 12 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 3: Lamb, and I am Joe McCormick, and we have returned 13 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,599 Speaker 3: with part two of our Halloween season series on the 14 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 3: monsters and demons of ancient Mesopotamian religion. Now, if you 15 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 3: haven't heard part one yet, this is really one of 16 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 3: those series where I think you should go back and 17 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 3: listen to part one first. I would recommend that because 18 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 3: in that episode we have a general discussion about the 19 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 3: connotations of the English word demon and the ways it 20 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 3: both does and does not describe these entities from ancient Mesopotamia, 21 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 3: and we also get into some general general trends and 22 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 3: observations about the spirits and supernatural forces of ancient Mesopotamian religions. 23 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 3: But in that episode we also talk about a number 24 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 3: of specific horrifying creatures depicted in the literature and artworks 25 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 3: of this region and time period, including Humbaba or Huuahwa, 26 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 3: whose breath is death and whose face is an omen 27 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 3: when seen in the spilled intestines of a sheep. We 28 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 3: talked about the terrifying oppressor Lamashtu, who threatens infants and 29 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 3: pregnant women. And we talked about Pazuzu, the demon or 30 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 3: perhaps god depending on your take of the Southwest Winds, 31 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 3: known best to modern audience is as the devil that 32 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 3: possesses Reagan McNeil in The Exorcist. And then finally, we 33 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 3: talked about some actually quite surprising qualities of Pazuzu in 34 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 3: his original cultural context, in which he was often seen 35 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 3: as not just a malevolent threat in himself, but as 36 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 3: an apotropaic protector warding off other evil beings the Riddick principle, 37 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 3: if you will. 38 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: We also talked about how no one really knows for 39 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: sure how to pronounce any of these words or names. 40 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: We have some best practices recommended by scholars, and we 41 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: try to follow that, But ultimately no one can know 42 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: for sure, Like, for instance, inky do, what if it's 43 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: inky do? No one ever says it like that, But 44 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: it's not impossible that that was the original pronunciation, right, 45 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 1: I think people say it like that inky do. Yeah, 46 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: I've heard that inky do. I don't know. It just 47 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: feels wrong. 48 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 3: It just thinks I've said it that way. 49 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: It doesn't have the same gravitized you know, I don't know. 50 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: It sounds a little like preschooler educational program. 51 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 3: It does sound like a word my daughter would say, 52 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 3: just one of those words she makes up. 53 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: Now. When I told my wife that we were going 54 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: to do a couple of episodes about ancient Mesopotamian demons, 55 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: she jokingly asked if we were going to talk about 56 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: Goser Ah. And you know, readers of Tobin Spirit Guide 57 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,679 Speaker 1: know all too well that Gozer the Gazarian is said 58 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: to have been an ancient extra dimensional entity worshiped in 59 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 1: ancient Mesopotamia, attended to by two guardians, Vince Clortho the 60 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: key Master and Zeel the Gatekeeper. Ah. 61 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 3: Yes, who can forget the frantic search of Rick moranis 62 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 3: for the Gatekeeper? I am Vince Clortho key master of Gozer. 63 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: Yes, we are, of course talking about Ghostbusters again. And 64 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: to be very clear, Goser and their attendants are fictional 65 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: creations of Dan Ackroyd and Harold Ramis, and their names 66 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: have no connection to the actual mythologies the actual religions 67 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: of ancient Mesopotamia. In fact, in interviews, Ackroyd has pointed 68 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: to two key inspirations for the name Gozer in the film. 69 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: He claims there was a Goser Chevrolet dealership in upstate 70 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: New York, and that the name Gozer is somehow I'm 71 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: connected to her involved in an alleged poltergeist haunting. So 72 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: I don't doubt Akroyd on either of these counts. But 73 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: I also couldn't find any solid evidence of either. But 74 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: you know, it seems very likely on both counts, because 75 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: I believe Gozer or something like it is a relatively 76 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: common Turkish last name. And as far as haunting stories go, 77 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: I mean, sure, anything as possible. 78 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 3: In the realm of ghosts. You can make up whatever 79 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 3: words you want. 80 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, But that being said, Gozer is a pretty great 81 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 1: fictional demonic god played by slaves Jhovin and voiced by 82 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: Patty Edwards. And the original Ghostbusters and Act and then 83 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: in the recent Ghostbusters Afterlife played by Olivia Wilde and 84 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: voice by show ray Adashlu. I like both incarnations of 85 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,239 Speaker 1: the both both awesome in my opinion. 86 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 3: I haven't seen the new Ghostbuster stuff, but. 87 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: It's worth it for Gozer. Worth it for Gozer. Okay. 88 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: So Goser works, especially in the original Ghostbusters in a 89 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: large part because Akroyd and Ramis really had a lot 90 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: of enthusiasm clearly for weird fiction, Acroid in particular for 91 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 1: the occult and spiritualism. I think he said, I have 92 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: like a family connection to some of that stuff, and 93 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: you know, to a limited degree, I would say the 94 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: idea of Gozer is a kind of guardian death god, 95 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,919 Speaker 1: guard of the under god of the underworld, feels appropriate 96 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: for ancient Mesopotamia. That being said, I believe in the 97 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 1: film or supporting material they give a date of like 98 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: six thousand BCE for Goser's worship, and that would put 99 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: this figure well outside the historical framework that we've been 100 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: considering in these episodes. So Goser would in this case 101 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: be like a firmly neil Thic deity. 102 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 3: It would be from before written sources. 103 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, so again no actual grounding in ancient Mesopotamian myth, 104 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: though the name, as you and I were discussing off 105 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: Mike the other day, does sound similar to the ancient 106 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: Egyptian pharaoh that is therefore essentially a god an individual 107 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: by the name of Joser Jesser Zoser. Even often I 108 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: think the primary spelling you run across in English is 109 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: djo s e R, but I've also seen it as 110 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: z o z Er. Okay, his name apparently refers to 111 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: the ancient Egyptian symbol of stability, a kind of terrorist 112 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: pillar known as the Jed. 113 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 3: I mainly associate the pharaoh Joser with his his pyramid, 114 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 3: which is is a step pyramid, and it's different from 115 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 3: the pyramids on the Giza plateau. But this one is 116 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 3: really early. It was apparently like the first of the 117 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 3: big stone monuments of ancient Egypt. Yeah. 118 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, So anyway, that's just a brief aside about Gozer. 119 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: But and then when we may come back briefly to 120 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: the idea of Gozer, but let's turn now to some 121 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: more amazing actual demons and monsters from the world of 122 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: ancient Mesopotamian myth and religion. 123 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 3: That's right, so to get to the real ones, but 124 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,239 Speaker 3: not to leave the movie connections. I just had another 125 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 3: quick note on Pazuzu, which we talked about at length 126 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 3: in the last episode. I was looking at some artifacts 127 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 3: pictured photographed in a book that was published by the J. 128 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 3: Paul Getty Museum that had text by Arion Thomas and 129 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 3: Timothy Potts. This was published in twenty twenty. This book 130 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 3: features an image of a full bronze statuette of Pazuzu 131 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 3: from the Neo Assyrian period, and it is depicted in 132 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 3: the statuette much like the common Pazuzu description we talked 133 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 3: about in the last episode, and there were lots of 134 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 3: depictions of Pazuzu because of his common use in Protective 135 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 3: Household Magic. But I thought a really cool thing about 136 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 3: this is that the statuette has an inscription on the 137 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 3: back and it like says, here's who I am. It says, 138 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 3: I am Pazuzu, son of Hanbu, king of the Leelu demons. 139 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 3: I have scaled the powerful mountains. They trembled the contrary 140 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 3: winds I've sometimes seen translated as enemy winds or something 141 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 3: like that. The contrary winds were headed west one by 142 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 3: one I broke their wings. 143 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. Pazuzu, the breaker of the wings of the wind. 144 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 3: Once again reminds me of your Godzilla comparison from last time. 145 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 3: You know that you is like, this is the the 146 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 3: king of monsters in a sense, the breaker of other monsters. 147 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: That's right, but still dangerous in its own right. 148 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. So this inscription mentions that Pazuzu ruled over the 149 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 3: other demons of the wind. He was strong enough to 150 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 3: repel and subjugate them, as in the description one by one, 151 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 3: I broke their wings, and he says he is king 152 00:08:55,800 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 3: of the Leelu demons. So who are these demons? Well? 153 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 3: I decided to look them up as well, because we 154 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 3: didn't end up talking about them by name in the 155 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 3: last episode. We may have sort of referred to a 156 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 3: class of wind associated demons that would include these demons. 157 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 3: But here I'm going to refer again to a text 158 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 3: that we brought up that we used in the last episode, 159 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 3: and we'll refer to again in this episode. This is 160 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 3: God's Demons and Symbols of Ancient Mesopotamia and illustrated dictionary 161 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 3: from British Museum Press, written by these scholars, Jeremy Black 162 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 3: and Anthony Green and illustrated by Tessa Rickards. So, regarding 163 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 3: the Leelu demons, Black and Green refer to them as 164 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 3: a family group of demons. So you got one male 165 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 3: demon named Leelu and two female demons named Lee le 166 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 3: Tou and our dot Lee Lee. The Leelu and Lee 167 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 3: Leitu are associated with the wilderness. They are malicious demons 168 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 3: who haunt the open desert in empty places, and much 169 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 3: like the demon as Lamash too, they pray a specially 170 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 3: on pregnant women and young children. The r double Lee, 171 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 3: on the other hand, is interesting because she seems to 172 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 3: embody something we see in a lot of monstrous imagery 173 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 3: throughout the Ages that seems to embody, especially male anxieties 174 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:18,719 Speaker 3: about womanhood. 175 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, the are, doubtedly. Lee certainly betrays very strict ideals 176 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: about what a woman's role or roles are in society. 177 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: That she is mother and she is wife, and a 178 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: woman that cannot act in these roles is essentially a 179 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: monster worthy of treatment as such. In these myths, Black 180 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: and Green include the translated quote, she is not a 181 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: wife a mother. She has not known happiness, she has 182 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: not undressed in front of her husband, has no milk 183 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: in her breasts and then you know, the most monstrous 184 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: creature then spreads impudence and infertility to other mortals like 185 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: a curse. So real, really rough stuff. But you know, 186 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: certainly you can use it as a lens to sort 187 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: of see like what were like the accepted roles and 188 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: limitations for people during this age. 189 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, and the idea of a feminine entity who does 190 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 3: not fit into any of the socially prescribed roles for 191 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 3: a woman so such as mother or wife, is in 192 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 3: itself a terrifying thought. 193 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 1: Yeah. I also looked up the r dot Lee in 194 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: one of Carol Rose's books, or Encyclopaedia of Various and Leprechauns, 195 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: and she says that the name literally means made of 196 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: desolation and describes it as a wild haired, winged creature 197 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: that will entice mortals to lonely, desolate places and then 198 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: attack them. 199 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 3: Yeah. And also, you know, in this century, Black and 200 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 3: Green compare the ardot Lee to a figure from Hebrew 201 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 3: folklore known as Lilith, a sort of sort of alternate 202 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 3: accounts of creation that are parallel to what we see 203 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 3: in the Book of Genesis. There's this of Lilith that 204 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 3: is also created that. I think there's a lot been 205 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 3: written about Lilith as well, commenting on the ways that 206 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 3: it reflects anxiety about socially nonconforming womanhood. I think this 207 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 3: is not limited to the ancient world, of course. There's 208 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 3: still a lot of men who are going to see 209 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 3: women who are not fitting into the social roles that 210 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 3: they believe women should fit into and thus conclude that 211 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 3: that woman is some kind of a monster. 212 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think this is always one of the interesting 213 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,599 Speaker 1: things about monsters in particular, but also other trappings of 214 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: myth and religion. It's like, no matter how fantastic the creature, 215 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: the story is like, the ideas involved, you know, often 216 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: resonate across the ages, and they often do line up 217 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: with some of the same problems that we have today. 218 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean monsters they may not exist in reality, 219 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 3: they are made up, but they reflect what people have 220 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 3: on their minds, so they are actually I think, informative 221 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 3: about reality. They show people. They show weird sort of 222 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 3: like cracks and fissures in our categories, in our minds, 223 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 3: because monsters often occur at the intersection of categories, or 224 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 3: when we encounter a kind of being or concept that 225 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 3: doesn't fit into our category matrix very well, then we 226 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 3: make a monster out of it, or we simply just 227 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 3: express what's worrying us in some kind of physical form, 228 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 3: in the form of a monster. And those worries can 229 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 3: of course be in some cases very understandable even universal. 230 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 3: In other cases they can be pretty nasty. They can 231 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 3: reflect nasty attitudes, they can reflect misogyny, they can reflect 232 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 3: whatever is preoccupying people, understandable or not. 233 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Joe, why don't we move on to something 234 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: for the men here, specifically the scorpion man. 235 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 3: Hey, well, I'll give a preview that these next creatures 236 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 3: that gear Tablulu are often referred to as scorpion men, 237 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 3: but there are scorpion women as well, so we will 238 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 3: get both. But in the previous episode we talked about 239 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 3: the various human animal hybrids depicted in Sumerian and Tikadian 240 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 3: literature and then depicted in artwork from throughout the region 241 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 3: in the Neosyrian, Neo Babylonian period and so forth. In 242 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 3: some cases, it could be debated whether it is better 243 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 3: to call these monsters demons or some other kind of entity, 244 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 3: even in some cases a god. But however, we classify 245 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 3: them they are awesome. There are mermaids and mermen with 246 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 3: the head of a human and the tail and lower 247 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 3: body of a fish. There are centaurs half human and 248 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 3: half horse. There are lion centaurs part lion, part human, 249 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 3: and finally there are the gear tablulu, the scorpion men 250 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 3: or scorpion people. According to Black and Green, a scorpion 251 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 3: man is usually depicted as follows, so it's got to 252 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 3: human head with a majestic and luxurious beard on top 253 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 3: of his head. He often wears a horned cap and 254 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 3: sidebar on the horned cap because I got interested in 255 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 3: this and it seems like an important symbol. The horned 256 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 3: cap appears throughout Mesopotamian art, beginning in the early third 257 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 3: millennium BCE, and seems to be associated with power and 258 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 3: godhood in different periods of history. It is associated with 259 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 3: like different primary gods from the pantheons. So it might 260 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 3: be that the you know, in one period horn the 261 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 3: horned cap is really the symbol of this god, and 262 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 3: another period it's this Southern god. But it remains fairly 263 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 3: consistent as a symbol of divine status. Now, why does 264 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 3: a horned cap mean divine status? Black and Green speculate 265 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 3: that the godlike associations might be derived from the horns 266 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 3: of the now extinct wild bovine bos primogeneous, commonly known 267 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 3: as the orux now the aura was a wild ancestor 268 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 3: of today's domestic cattle, and still existed in its wild 269 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 3: form during much of human history, probably up until the 270 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 3: seventeenth century CE in some places, so just a few 271 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 3: hundred years ago that it finally went globally extinct, and 272 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 3: they were still being hunted by kings during the Neo 273 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 3: Assyrian period in Mesopotamia. These beasts were massive and awe inspiring, 274 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 3: larger than most domestic cattle today, with some bull oryx 275 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 3: standing up nearly six feet tall at the shoulder and 276 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 3: having gigantic thick horns more than eighty centimeters or about 277 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 3: two point six feet long, with each horn having a 278 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 3: diameter of up to between ten and eighteen centimeters, so 279 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 3: huge horns. I sometimes mention on the show that, like, 280 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 3: if you're not a farmer or a rancher and you 281 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 3: only ever see domestic farm animals like cattle and horses 282 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 3: on TV, it can be kind of shocking, like their 283 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 3: size and power when you actually get up close to one. 284 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 3: An example I've used before is that cattle can seem 285 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 3: very docile and bulky and slow moving until you see 286 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 3: one suddenly leap over a fence or start running at 287 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 3: full speed, and then you're like, WHOA. I did not 288 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 3: imagine that animal was capable of this, But the wild 289 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 3: Orx was even larger, more powerful, less docile, with horns 290 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 3: like Tim Curry and legend, so just an awe inspiring beast. 291 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 3: And with that in mind, it's not that hard to 292 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 3: imagine that the horns of the Aorx could be a 293 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 3: perfect symbol of kingly power, power, strength and will, and 294 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,880 Speaker 3: thus a cap with horns on it would be a 295 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 3: marker of divinity in art. But ultimately this is speculative. 296 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 3: We can't know for sure exactly why this imagery was used, 297 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 3: but seems to me like a good guess. 298 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: Okay, so not actual horns growing out of the scorpion 299 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,120 Speaker 1: man's head, but something more I can do, a crown. 300 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 3: Right, the horned cap. So back to the scorpion man 301 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 3: usually depicted, as I said, with the human head, thick beard, 302 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 3: and the horned cap of divinity. The scorpion man typically 303 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 3: had a human's upper body, so it would be kind 304 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 3: of human shaped from the diaphragm up. This seems pretty 305 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 3: consistent throughout representations, but then going down from here there 306 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 3: is some variation. Sometimes you'd get what looks like a 307 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 3: human abdomen, human pelvis, human thighs, but then going down 308 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 3: in the lower legs into bird legs and bird feet 309 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 3: with the talons of a raptor. 310 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: As we discussed in last episode, this is pretty common 311 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: in a lot of different demons and godlike beings in 312 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: ancient Mesopotamia, and as we've talked about on the show too, 313 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: like this idea of demons having the legs of a bird, 314 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 1: this doesn't quite go away. We see perhaps the reverberations 315 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,479 Speaker 1: of this on through like medieval and post medieval times. 316 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 3: That's right now. Another variation is that sometimes beneath the check, 317 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 3: sort of from the bottom of the ribs on down, 318 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 3: you would instead get a more horizontal body, kind of 319 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 3: egg shaped body that I'm not sure if this is 320 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 3: supposed to represent a scorpion's body enlarged or maybe a 321 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 3: bird's body. It looks almost in some depictions, kind of 322 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 3: like a duck with instead of a duck's neck, just 323 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 3: a human's upper body from the chest up and then 324 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 3: this also descends into feet with bird claws. I don't know, 325 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 3: rob you look at this, do you see scorpion body 326 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:31,959 Speaker 3: or bird body? 327 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: I mean it feels more bird body to me. 328 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 3: So whether the midsection is human or avian or iraqnid, 329 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 3: in any case, you will get a scorpion tail. This 330 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 3: is the promise of the premise, right. It is raised 331 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 3: in a threatening pose and it is ready to strike 332 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 3: with its deadly sting. 333 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: And to be clear, it does not look like the 334 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: scorpion king has portrayed by Dwayne Johnson in one of 335 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: the Scorpion Kings Sea. 336 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 3: Which is a real shame some of the best cgi 337 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 3: of all time. 338 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 1: Oh. 339 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 3: Also, sometimes you get wings in an X shape, like 340 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 3: we discussed with representations of Pazuzu and other wind demons, 341 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 3: these X shaped wings. And sometimes you get also, like 342 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 3: we discussed with Pazuzu, a penis that has a snakehead. 343 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 3: What is the meaning of the snakehead penis? It is 344 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 3: hard to say exactly, but I feel like I get 345 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 3: the gist. So scorpion men are mentioned in several of 346 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 3: the best known works of ancient Mesopotamian literature. First of all. 347 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 3: They appear among a catalog of demons and monsters in 348 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 3: the Inuma a Leish, the Babylonian Epic of Creation. So 349 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 3: in the text, there is a character Tiamot, who is 350 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 3: the personification of the primordial ocean the salt waters, and 351 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 3: Tiamot is seeking revenge for the slaughter of her consort Opsu, 352 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 3: who is the personification of fresh water. These two are 353 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 3: kind of the original primordial deities. And then kind of 354 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 3: like in the kind of like in the in the 355 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 3: Greek stories, we get different generations of gods descending from them. 356 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 3: In this story, Opsu gets really mad at the younger 357 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 3: generations of gods because they are creating a commotion. I 358 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 3: think they're being too loud and boisterous, and he wants 359 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,719 Speaker 3: to destroy them, but the gods kill Opsu first. And 360 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 3: then in preparing for vengeance, Tiamat creates or gathers a 361 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 3: bunch of monsters to her side to serve under her 362 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 3: son and new consort, Kingu. And then I'm going to 363 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 3: read from the inuma Elish, this is the Leonard William 364 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 3: King translation, talking about these monsters serving Tiamot with poison 365 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 3: instead of blood. She hath filled their bodies, fierce monster vipers. 366 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 3: She hath clothed with terror, with splendor. She hath decked them. 367 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 3: She hath made them of lofty stature. Whoever beholdeth them 368 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 3: is overcome by terror. Their bodies rear up, and none 369 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,479 Speaker 3: can withstand their attack. She Hath set up vipers and 370 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 3: dragons and the monster Leahamu, and hurricanes and raging hounds, 371 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 3: and scorpion men and mighty tempests and fish men and rams. 372 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 3: They bear cruel weapons without fear of the fight. Okay, 373 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 3: so from this Acadian source, from the second millennium BCE, 374 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 3: we can sort of see the company they keep. Right, 375 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 3: they're among all of these monstrous beings who might run 376 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 3: out to fight against Marduk, But otherwise we don't get 377 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 3: a lot of description here. However, the scorpion beings also 378 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 3: appear in the epic of Gilgamesh, where they play a 379 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 3: more active role in the plot, and they also, in 380 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 3: this case appear in both male and female forms. So 381 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 3: the scorpion beings show up in tablet nine of the 382 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 3: Gilgamesh epic, where a lot of the text of the 383 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 3: epic has been lost, leaving us with fragmentary and missing 384 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 3: lines throughout, but they still make quite an impression, even 385 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 3: if some of their part of the story is gone now. 386 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 3: So the context is that Gilgamesh's friend, the wild man 387 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 3: in key Dou, has been killed by a curse from 388 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 3: the gods in punishment for the fact that together Gilgamesh 389 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 3: and in key Dou killed the monster Humbaba, who we 390 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 3: talked about at the beginning of the last episode, you know, 391 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 3: the big scary monster that guards the Cedar forest. Gilgamesh 392 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 3: and in key Dou go in there and they fight 393 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 3: Humbaba and they kill him. And so in revenge for that, 394 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 3: the gods kill in key Dou with a curse. And 395 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 3: then Gilgamesh is distraught over the death of his friend, 396 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 3: and he embraces in Keydu's body, refusing to believe that 397 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 3: he has died, until finally maggots begin to fall from 398 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 3: in key Dou's face. So Gilgamesh is horrified not only 399 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 3: by the loss of his friend, but by the realization 400 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 3: that he is going to have to die one day himself. 401 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 3: It's in a lot of ways, it's a kind of 402 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,479 Speaker 3: almost humorously self focused reaction to He starts thinking, I 403 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 3: can't this can't happen to me, because you know it 404 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 3: means he would be taken down to the gloomy, horrible 405 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 3: nether world, where dust is your food and clay is 406 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 3: your meat, and it's just horrible to think about how 407 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 3: this fate is unavoidable. Unavoidable that is for most mortals. 408 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 3: But there is one man within the story who knows 409 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 3: the secret to eternal life, and that is the aged Utnapishtim, 410 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 3: the son of Ubaratutu, who along with his family, was 411 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 3: granted eternal life by the gods. Now, Utnapishtim is the 412 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 3: protagonist of another story. He is the survivor of the 413 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 3: Mesopotamian flood myth, of which Noah's flood story in the 414 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 3: Book of Genesis seems to be a very close analog, 415 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 3: so you can think of Utnapishtim and Noah as similar characters. Anyway, 416 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 3: Utnapichtim and his family they have the gift of immortality, 417 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 3: and so Gilgamash is going to try to get to 418 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 3: Utnapishtim to figure out how to live forever himself. But 419 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 3: to reach the old man, Gilgamesh has to go on 420 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 3: along and perilous journey, and at one point in his 421 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 3: journey he comes to the peaks of Mount Mashu, the 422 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 3: mountain of the horizon, and there, nestled in the belly 423 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 3: of the mountain is a great, yawning tunnel which he 424 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 3: must pass through to meet the immortal One. But it's 425 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 3: not just any tunnel. This tunnel is the path of 426 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 3: the Sun. So every evening at sunset, the sun god 427 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 3: Shamash must descend into one end of this tunnel and 428 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 3: then emerge out the other side at dawn. Anyway, guarding 429 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 3: the entrance of the Path of the Sun tunnel are 430 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 3: two monstrous beings. You've got a scorpion man and a 431 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 3: scorpion woman. So here I'm going to read from the 432 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 3: Epic of Gilgamesh tablet. Nine. This is the Stephanie Dally translation. 433 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 3: And to be clear, there are some gaps in the 434 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 3: text here and speculative words filled in. I'll try to 435 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 3: make it smooth so it reads. The name of the 436 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 3: mountain is Mashu. When he reached the mountain Mashu, which 437 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 3: daily guards the coming out of Shamash, their upper parts 438 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 3: touched the sky's foundation. Below their breasts reach Aralu, meaning 439 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 3: the underworld. They guard its gait scorpion men whose aura 440 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:24,360 Speaker 3: is frightful and whose glance is death. They're terrifying. Mantles 441 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 3: of radiance drape the mountains. They guard the sun at 442 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 3: dawn and dusk. Gilgamesh looked at them, and fear and 443 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 3: terror clouded his face. He took the initiative and gestured 444 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 3: to them in greeting. A scorpion man shouted to his woman, 445 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 3: someone has come to us. His body is the flesh 446 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 3: of gods. The scorpion man's woman answered him, two thirds 447 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 3: of him is divine and one third of him is mortal. 448 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 3: So I like that there. The scorpion woman is a 449 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 3: bit more discerning in detecting mortality. Now after this there 450 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 3: is a section where a lot is missing. But it 451 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 3: seems that what happens is the scorpion beings question Gilgamesh 452 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 3: and where he's going, and he tells them he is 453 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 3: traveling to meet his ancestor, Napishtim. They warn him not 454 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 3: to try it, because to reach utnipischt him. Gilgamesh has 455 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 3: to pass through the tunnel under the mountain, which is 456 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 3: filled with the thickest darkness. No man has ever made 457 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 3: the journey alive, and missing text prevents us from knowing 458 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 3: exactly what happens, but it seems that maybe the scorpion 459 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 3: beings take pity on Gilgamesh and then allow him to 460 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 3: pass into the deep and he has to travel a 461 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 3: full day in this hot, pitch blackness, but he does 462 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 3: survive the journey and he makes it out to the 463 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 3: other side, where he emerges into the garden of Shamash, 464 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 3: where the trees are made of stone and they bear 465 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 3: jewels as their fruits. So you can see different roles here. 466 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 3: In the ina Ali, the scorpion people seem to be 467 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 3: simply grouped among other poisonous monstrosities the fighters of the 468 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 3: Imordial see Mother of Chaos, and they're going to do 469 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 3: battle against Marduk and the younger generation of gods. But 470 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 3: in Gilgamesh, while they are still presented as deadly and terrifying, 471 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 3: they're more human and more humane. And though this part 472 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 3: is speculative, one interpretation of the fragmentary text is that 473 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 3: they allow Gilgamesh to pass the gate of the Sun 474 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 3: because they take pity on him, And according to Black 475 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 3: and Green, you can see this duality in the way 476 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 3: the image of the scorpion person is used for artistic 477 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 3: and magical purposes. Much like Pazuzu, this horrifying entity can 478 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 3: not only attack, he can also protect. So they chart 479 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 3: the history of this imagery, saying that the scorpion person 480 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 3: first appears in the Acadian period in the third dynasty 481 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 3: of Ur, and then the scorpion people images became more 482 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 3: widespread during the Neo Assyrian and Neo Babylonian times, and 483 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 3: in accordance with their role in Gilgemh, they're often depicted 484 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 3: as servants of the sun god Shamash, sometimes even bearing 485 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 3: the up the image of the solar disk up on 486 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 3: their bodies, and in the Neo Assyrian period, the image 487 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 3: of the scorpion person in the form of a little 488 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 3: wooden figurine serves for apotropaic magic, just like Pazuzu, warding 489 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 3: off the malice of predatory demons and protecting the bearers 490 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 3: home from harm. So it seems interesting that this theme 491 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 3: recurs with multiple horrible demons we've talked about. Humbaba, Pazuzu, 492 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 3: and the scorpion people are apparently all apotropaic shields. At 493 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 3: some point. While they're like some of the scariest monsters 494 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 3: and demons that people can think of, they're also serving 495 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 3: as protective magic. 496 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's so so fascinating to think about this 497 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: again within the trappings, and even just not in the trappings, 498 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: but in the shadow cultural shadow of monotheistic religions. This 499 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: is not something you tend to think about, you know. 500 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: It tends to be the kind of thing that on 501 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: atheistic religions have put a lot of effort into squashing 502 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: the idea that you can turn to any figure except for, 503 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: you know, the Supreme God, or maybe certain agents have 504 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: said Supreme God. But you certainly can't turn to any 505 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: of the villains and ask for their help in matters. 506 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 3: I'm going to recruit Beelzebub to protect me against Belisle. 507 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you get into a nuanced conversation about well, 508 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: I mean, one's far worse than the other. It makes 509 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: sense to use the lesser evil against the greater email, 510 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: all right. Now, moving on to a couple of other 511 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: demons from ancient Mesopotamia. These are the two we're going 512 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: to discuss here. Are both connected to some really striking imagery. 513 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: Imagery from beast relief slabs found in the ancient Assyrian 514 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: city of Nimrud in what is now Iraq. Now back 515 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: in the ninth century BCE, this city was known as Kalhu, 516 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: and the Assyrian king Ashur Nasirpal the second had them erected, 517 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: I think, to either side of the main entrance to 518 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: the Temple of Minurta. According to Black and Green, one 519 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: particular image from these slabs is so evocative that you'll 520 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: just find it all over the place, and if not, 521 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: you know the actual image like a recreation of it, 522 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: and you'll even find it on the Wikipedia page for 523 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: Ancient Mesopotamian religion. One. I've seen it on the cover 524 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: of textbooks. I've seen it as like a striking image 525 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: for museum displays that have to do with this time 526 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: and or region. And it basically depicts two figures. One 527 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: is a winged, bearded humanoid with thunderbolts or some sort 528 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: of like Vodra type weapons in both of his hands, 529 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: like double bladed, and he's battling or chasing after some 530 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: sort of fearsome monster or demon. At least in my eyes, 531 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: it's uncertain how many feet this creature walks on, like 532 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: is it rearing up or does it just walk on 533 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: those rear feet, which of course look like the feet 534 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: of a bird. This thing is sometimes described as a 535 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: kind of winged lion or a monstrous griffin of some sort. 536 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like it's got bird talons on its feet, 537 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 3: it looks like, but then also a clawed four pause 538 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 3: like maybe a lion's pause, though I don't know. Actually 539 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 3: they look more like hands with fingers, and then scales 540 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 3: all over the body and what looks kind of like 541 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 3: a lion's head, but weirdly, the neck doesn't look very leonine. 542 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 3: It looks more like a snake rising up, like a 543 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 3: you know, venomous snake rising up and hissing with its 544 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 3: mouth open, and then feathery wings. 545 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, without a doubt, it is fearsome looking. And apparently 546 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: this is another case we don't one hundred percent know 547 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 1: who these entities are. There seem to be some best 548 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: guesses and some solid hypotheses, but sometimes they're just presented 549 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: as chaos demon in sun god or something you know, 550 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: generic like that British Museum sources. It should be pointed 551 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: out the British Museum this is where you'll currently find 552 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: the slabs. They suggested that God would have been the 553 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: local thunder Deityurta Black and Green also present the god 554 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: Adad as a possibility, but seem to focus more on 555 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: this character of ne Nourta and what is he battling well, 556 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: British Museum sources suggest possibly the monster Anzu, also known 557 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: as the bird idigod. This is a great lion headed 558 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: bird that steals the Tablet of Destinies from Inky or 559 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: inlil and the pictured god then slays the monster in 560 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: order to retrieve this sacred artifact. Now you might be wondering, well, okay, 561 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: what to deal with the Tablet of Destinies? Like the 562 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: name like that, it's got to be important, and yes 563 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 1: it is important. It is essentially the most important binding 564 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: legal document in the universe. According to this mythology, as 565 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: Black and Green point out, the tablet was essentially a 566 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 1: tablet of uniform writing impressed also with cylinder seals, and 567 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: it would give the possessor power and authority to determine 568 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 1: the destinies of the world everyone in the world, and 569 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: linked heaven to the underworld. So I suppose you could 570 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: almost think of it as the world tree in legal 571 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: document form, no doubt, you know, driving home the importance 572 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: of writing in the cultures of ancient Mesopotamia. So normally 573 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: in leal or Inky holds the tablet close to his chest, 574 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,879 Speaker 1: clutching it as the guarantee of his rule. You don't 575 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: want this to fall into the wrong hands after all, 576 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: or the wrong clause, because that's exactly what happens. And 577 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: then Nnuta has to reclaim them and and then return 578 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: them to their rightful owner. So in and of itself, 579 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,720 Speaker 1: pretty tremendous story and pretty great role for a monster 580 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: or demon. But Black and Green also suggested the creature 581 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 1: in this image could be the great demon Asag or 582 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: a Saku. Carol Rose describes the Sag as a demon 583 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,760 Speaker 1: of disease who spreads pestilence, poisons the earth, and causes 584 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: wells to dry up. Black and Green describe a demon 585 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: so hideous and powerful that the fish boil alive in 586 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: the rivers at his approach. Whoa, He is the offspring 587 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: of the sky god, and he himself has mate it 588 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: with the mountains to produce monstrous offspring, presumably the Stone 589 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 1: warriors who follow him into battle. And this kind of 590 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: ties back in with the Zagros Mountains because they write 591 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: on one level, the defeat of Nnuta in this myth 592 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: of the Asag and the Stones expresses the unease felt 593 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,399 Speaker 1: by the inhabitants of the Mesopotamian plain about the inhabitants 594 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: of the zo Gross Mountains. As you'll remember in the 595 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: last episode, these mountains to the west were thought to 596 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:09,239 Speaker 1: produce winds of pestilence that would roll down into the 597 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: region in question. 598 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and you know, when we see like what 599 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 3: actually are the effects that demons, like malevolent demons tend 600 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 3: to produce on human beings, it is often described in 601 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 3: Mesopotamian texts as like winds sort of weather phenomena and disease, 602 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 3: and disease I think was often thought to ride on 603 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 3: the winds. 604 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I will have to add a note here 605 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 1: that is a common occurrence when we're researching mythologies that 606 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: you'll encounter some sort of like monstrous entities or a 607 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 1: monstrous race and you're like, oh, these are really fascinating. 608 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: I wonder what the origin is. And then you'll look 609 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: into it and it's like, oh, it's because one people 610 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: distrusted in other people and describe them as monster. One 611 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: people wiped out another people and described them as monsters. 612 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: So you know, again it's you know, we see this 613 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: in like certain aspects of Irish mythology if I recall correctly. 614 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: So again, you know that the shadows of humanity's failings 615 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:14,760 Speaker 1: certainly color even some of our more fantastic and captivating myths. 616 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 1: But anyway, zag was also frequently mentioned in spells against illness, 617 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 1: especially head fevers. And you know this this is because 618 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: I guess you need to name the demon that you 619 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: are saying, don't come in. Don't come in here, head 620 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: fever demon. And in some traditions, the asaku are said 621 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: to be a group of seven demons, not so much 622 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: an individual but a group of seven. 623 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 3: Now, rob One thing we ended up talking about in 624 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 3: the last episode was the sort of proposed timeline of 625 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 3: the changing role of demons in ancient Mesopotamian religions and cosmologies, 626 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,760 Speaker 3: and also how that affected views of the afterlife, because 627 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,359 Speaker 3: of course, you know, the modern Christian vision of Hell 628 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 3: is one that is populated demons often, but this is 629 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 3: not necessarily the case with all visions of an embodied afterlife. 630 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 3: You could imagine another world that doesn't really have any 631 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,240 Speaker 3: demons running around in it, but at least some versions 632 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 3: of the ancient Mesopotamian underworld of the dead did have 633 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 3: a demonic population. 634 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's sometimes the case that they're they're not 635 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,839 Speaker 1: so much just evil things that happen to live there, 636 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,959 Speaker 1: but they have a job, they have a role. They're 637 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 1: kind of part of the overall cosmic order. And of 638 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: course we see shades of this when we consider sort 639 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: of the wider loose and you know, it's the amorphous 640 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: ideas about even you know, the Christian cosmology and heaven 641 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: and Hell, like, okay, are the devils imprisoned in Hell? 642 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 1: Or do they work there? Like if they torment human 643 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: souls there, in which some of these beliefs would would 644 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: have What have you believe? Then? Is it like who 645 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 1: signs their paycheck? Is that a Satan thing? Is that 646 00:38:59,040 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: a God thing? 647 00:38:59,840 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 3: Like? 648 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 1: How does it work? You know, I don't know, big, big, 649 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 1: tough problems of religion and theology. Certainly you get into 650 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:08,959 Speaker 1: if you follow this thread enough. 651 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,839 Speaker 3: The idea of a hell with demons working in it, 652 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 3: by the way, is as we talked about it in 653 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,359 Speaker 3: the last episode, that's not in the Hebrew Bible at all. 654 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 3: That does emerge in Christian theology, but it's actually that 655 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 3: specific idea with demons working in hell to torture the 656 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,280 Speaker 3: damned is not even in the Christian New Testament. 657 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:27,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it looks good, It looks really cool in 658 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,279 Speaker 1: a woodcut, but you know, for my money, you can 659 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,359 Speaker 1: kind of leave that on the table. Anyway. This comes 660 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 1: to a particular type of demon though in the ancient 661 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: Mesopotamian world that did have a job. So the demons 662 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: in question here are the Gala or the Galu, underworld 663 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 1: demons charged with dragging people off to the underworld. They 664 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 1: were said to number seven, and there were numerous spells 665 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 1: that might be used to ward them away. So there's 666 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: another case where at least some spells are saying like no, no, no, 667 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: do not come here. We do not want you, do 668 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 1: not drag me into the underworld. When the goddess in 669 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: Anna returns from her descent into the underworld, she's accompanied 670 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: by the Gala. And while again they're generally perceived as 671 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 1: horrific beings with a horrific purpose from our standpoint, they're 672 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: also not necessarily evil, just more of a harsh part 673 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 1: of the cosmic order, and so they could also be 674 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,880 Speaker 1: invoked in a positive sense. So there are references to 675 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: both good Goala and evil Gala. You know, like good Goala, 676 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 1: come on in, evil Golla stay away. And yeah, so 677 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 1: I did wonder, like, you know how much of this 678 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 1: is about individual natures and or just their intentions, like 679 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,920 Speaker 1: just saying like Gala, if you're here for me, please 680 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: keep on moving. But if you're here for souls that 681 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: are not supposed to be here, for ghosts or whatever, 682 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,680 Speaker 1: then come on, come on in, do your job now. 683 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: You might wonder, well, how often does this occur? Like 684 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: what are the stories? And there is one key story 685 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 1: where they have a major role, and it is the 686 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,920 Speaker 1: story of an Honor and her descent into the underworld, 687 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 1: which if I am understanding correctly, we don't necessarily know 688 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,239 Speaker 1: why she goes into the underworld. I think there have 689 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,239 Speaker 1: been a number of hypotheses as to, you know, why 690 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,239 Speaker 1: this would be, And certainly you can look at other 691 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: descent into the underworld stories from other traditions that come later, 692 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:21,839 Speaker 1: and you know, get some idea about you know, why 693 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 1: this would work. But essentially, she finds herself in a 694 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,880 Speaker 1: situation where she cannot leave without someone taking her place, 695 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 1: And so what did the Gala do? Will they venture 696 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: back to our world? And they drag her young husband, 697 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,439 Speaker 1: Dumuzi the shepherd god away in the night, so she's 698 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,480 Speaker 1: allowed to go free. But Dumuzi dies and becomes a 699 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,360 Speaker 1: god of the underworld. And there are accounts of the 700 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 1: sheep skin that he slept in was found empty, you know, 701 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: because they dragged him out of it in the night 702 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: and took him off to the underworld. But you know, 703 00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 1: he's a god, so it gets to be a god 704 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: in the underworld, and you know, he ends up. I 705 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,799 Speaker 1: was reading some descriptions in Black and Green where they 706 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,359 Speaker 1: talk about I believe it was Black and Green talking 707 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: about like his role in the underworld is kind of guardian, 708 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 1: kind of a shepherd, and then he's you know, and 709 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,400 Speaker 1: then we have these these gala around him as well. 710 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,080 Speaker 1: And this kind of reminded me a little bit of 711 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,839 Speaker 1: what we're presented with with Gooser in Ghostbusters. You know, 712 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 1: some sort of entity that is supposed to you know, 713 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: that is attended by monsters, beings, and perhaps has some 714 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:35,360 Speaker 1: role regarding the flow in and out of the underworld, 715 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 1: which you know, in Ghostbusters, the Ghostbusters have interrupted this, 716 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,760 Speaker 1: they have messed with things with their ghostbusting and ghost 717 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:44,279 Speaker 1: capturing technology. 718 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 3: Ah, that's very good, but you know, I was actually 719 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,880 Speaker 3: thinking of another comparison that tied into some older episodes 720 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,400 Speaker 3: we did, and that would be while acknowledging many of 721 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 3: the differences, some similarities there with the story of Osiris, 722 00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:00,360 Speaker 3: who dies, goes into the underworld, and you know, is 723 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,840 Speaker 3: sometimes I think dubiously called like a god who dies 724 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,360 Speaker 3: and rises again. Oh, Cyrus actually stays in the underworld, 725 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 3: so sort of stays in this dead state, but is 726 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:15,280 Speaker 3: transformed and in a way transforms the underworld himself becomes 727 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 3: an authority there. 728 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:21,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, I'm sure there's a lot deeper 729 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,640 Speaker 1: one could go into looking at like what what does 730 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,560 Speaker 1: it mean to have a shepherd god become a major 731 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,280 Speaker 1: figure in the afterlife? And what does it say Tatis's 732 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 1: line up too with like the emergence of this concept 733 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,000 Speaker 1: of a shadowy afterlife and our expectations for it, and 734 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,799 Speaker 1: the things we might want for ourselves in it, and 735 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,440 Speaker 1: the things we can do here for ourselves or for 736 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: our loved ones. Certainly, this idea of of the divine 737 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,759 Speaker 1: as a shepherd does not go away, and it's with 738 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 1: us still today in some traditions. 739 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,200 Speaker 3: All right, well, you know what I promised in the 740 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,000 Speaker 3: last episode that we were going to come back and 741 00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 3: talk about Himbaba some more, but it seems like we're 742 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,879 Speaker 3: really out of time on this series. So maybe we'll 743 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 3: have to return to Humbaba in the future, and in 744 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,920 Speaker 3: fact to the general category of ancient Mesopotamian demons. There's 745 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,360 Speaker 3: some whole other tangents I got really interested in but 746 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,799 Speaker 3: didn't have time to fully develop or research, maybe having 747 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:20,839 Speaker 3: to do with some connections to the Asiatic Lion. So 748 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 3: maybe we'll come back and do more ancient Mesopotamian demons 749 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:25,400 Speaker 3: in the future. 750 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:27,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm totally found for that. There's a lot we 751 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: could discuss, and really there's even a lot more with 752 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,719 Speaker 1: the epic of Gilgamesh that we eat into. Yeah, we've 753 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,160 Speaker 1: covered aspects of it in the past, but it's certainly 754 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,879 Speaker 1: something we could do a deep dive on. All right, 755 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,400 Speaker 1: let's go ahead and close it out then, just to 756 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,400 Speaker 1: remind your stuff. To Blow your mind is primarily a 757 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,960 Speaker 1: science and culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. 758 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,000 Speaker 1: We don't always talk about demons and monsters and so forth, 759 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,440 Speaker 1: but it is October, so you're gonna find mostly that, 760 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: if not only that, during the month of October and then, 761 00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,719 Speaker 1: like you know, thirty forty percent of the time the 762 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,399 Speaker 1: rest of the year, on Fridays, we set aside most 763 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,840 Speaker 1: serious concerns to just talk about a weird film on 764 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,000 Speaker 1: Weird House Cinema. You'll again find those episodes on Fridays, 765 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,799 Speaker 1: and during the month of October. They are all going 766 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:12,800 Speaker 1: to be horror and Halloween related. 767 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,120 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 768 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:19,120 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 769 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:21,720 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 770 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:23,799 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 771 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,759 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact stuff to Blow your 772 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:34,320 Speaker 3: Mind dot com. 773 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,279 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 774 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 2: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 775 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:58,600 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows. 776 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:00,840 Speaker 1: Four