Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to
Speaker 1: the White Tail Woods. Present it by First Light, creating
Speaker 1: proven versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind.
Speaker 1: First Light, Go farther, stay Longer, and now your host
Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I am your host,
Speaker 2: Mark Kenyon, and this week on the show, I'm joined
Speaker 2: by Steve Varnella to discuss how he's used the great
Speaker 2: outdoors as a classroom for teaching his children about life
Speaker 2: and a whole lot more. All right, welcome to the
Speaker 2: Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light,
Speaker 2: and today we are wrapping up our month long series
Speaker 2: on parenting outdoor kids, and I think it is fitting
Speaker 2: to wrap it up with the one and only mister
Speaker 2: Steven Rinella, my friend, a colleague, a guy who has
Speaker 2: taught me both kind of from afar and in some
Speaker 2: more personal interactions about bringing people into the outside, sharing
Speaker 2: the outdoors with folks, teaching folks about the outdoors, and
Speaker 2: doing that not just with the random people, but also
Speaker 2: even with your own children. He is the author of
Speaker 2: a couple books on this very topic, which again makes
Speaker 2: him a perfect guest for us to help wrap a
Speaker 2: bow on this whole thing. These two books. One of
Speaker 2: them came out last year. It's titled Outdoor Kids in
Speaker 2: an Inside World, Getting your family out of the house
Speaker 2: and radically engaged with nature. It's a great book. I
Speaker 2: highly recommend it. I enjoyed it. Like I said, that
Speaker 2: one's already out there. And then in a couple of
Speaker 2: weeks from now on June thirteenth, twenty twenty three, his
Speaker 2: next book is Hitting the Shelves, and this one is
Speaker 2: titled Catch a Crayfish, Count the Stars, Fun Projects, Skills
Speaker 2: and Adventures for Outdoor Kids. And this is like an
Speaker 2: activity book for younger folks to engage with the natural
Speaker 2: world and build the skills and the experiences that will
Speaker 2: make you a competent hunter, angler, or just someone who
Speaker 2: enjoys the outside. I got an early copy of it,
Speaker 2: and me and my kids have been enjoying it. It's great,
Speaker 2: it's full of fun things. My son, in particular, my
Speaker 2: oldest son, was really really excited that Steve had written
Speaker 2: a book for kids like him. So if you've got
Speaker 2: a young child, my boys are three and five and
Speaker 2: they like it. So if you've got a kid that
Speaker 2: old up to I don't know twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen,
Speaker 2: who knows what. There's a lot of stuff in there
Speaker 2: for them. Highly recommend it. You can pre order it now,
Speaker 2: and if you're listening to this after June thirteenth, just
Speaker 2: get out of there and buy it. I'm sure you
Speaker 2: can buy it from the mediator dot com at our store.
Speaker 2: So that's the plug on the book front. But most importantly,
Speaker 2: you know Steve, if you've listened to his podcast, if
Speaker 2: you've read his books, if you've watched his show, you
Speaker 2: know that he brings a thoughtful approach to everything he does.
Speaker 2: And that's the kind of lens I think that we
Speaker 2: have been trying to look at parenting through and especially
Speaker 2: parenting a child that we hope will engage in the
Speaker 2: natural world. And that's something obviously that Steve's been doing
Speaker 2: with his own three kids that I think Gosh knows.
Speaker 2: I think his oldest is maybe thirteen or almost thirteen.
Speaker 2: So he's been at this for a while. He's had
Speaker 2: some interesting experiences that have colored that. And so here's
Speaker 2: what we talk about, Steve. We talk about some of
Speaker 2: the childhood experiences that he had himself when he was
Speaker 2: a kid that have impacted his parenting. Today, we talk
Speaker 2: about a lot of different ways that he tries to
Speaker 2: balance the outdoor experiences that he cultivates for his kids,
Speaker 2: both trying to allow them to be enjoyable, but also
Speaker 2: taking advantage of them as a learning experience and a
Speaker 2: personal kind of growth opportunity. That's been a big thing.
Speaker 2: If you've listened to the past three episodes with Tony
Speaker 2: with My Dad with Clay, you'll know this has been
Speaker 2: one of my big questions, which is, how do I
Speaker 2: balance making the outdoors or making hunting, or making fishing
Speaker 2: or camping or hiking. How do you make that fun?
Speaker 2: How to keep it fun so your kid is engaged
Speaker 2: and wants to keep doing it. How do you also
Speaker 2: use these things as a learning vessel to teach toughness
Speaker 2: or how to deal with the diversity, or perseverance, or
Speaker 2: you know, a thousand different things that these outdoor experiences
Speaker 2: can provide. That's something that I asked Steve about and
Speaker 2: he has some great thoughts on. Another thing that I've
Speaker 2: wrestled with a lot and that Steve helped me bring
Speaker 2: some clarity to, was this idea of how do we
Speaker 2: teach our children about conservation? How do we instill in
Speaker 2: them an appreciation for the natural world. How do we
Speaker 2: do all those things without overwhelming them, without taking the
Speaker 2: fun out of it. That's something that I really appreciated
Speaker 2: Steve's perspective on as well. So today we're going to
Speaker 2: get a look at how Steve raised his kids to
Speaker 2: live eye to eye with nature. It is is a
Speaker 2: conversation I really enjoyed. I think you will too, And
Speaker 2: do not forget to go pick up those two books
Speaker 2: I mentioned, because there's a whole lot more than what
Speaker 2: Steve and I can get to today, and those books
Speaker 2: cover it. I know you'll enjoy it. So without further ado,
Speaker 2: let's get mister Stephen Ranella on the line. All right
Speaker 2: with me? Now, I've got the one and only Steve Ranella. Steve,
Speaker 2: thank you for making time for this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, Mark Man.
Speaker 4: We haven't done anything in a long time, so this
Speaker 4: is good.
Speaker 2: I know it's been a little while, and I'm pulling
Speaker 2: in on.
Speaker 4: The since the back forty days, dude, I know.
Speaker 2: I'm pulling in for the hard hitting stuff too. We're
Speaker 2: talking parenting, So no softballs. If you're if you're okay
Speaker 2: with that.
Speaker 4: Steve Man, you drive by the bag forty.
Speaker 2: I don't drive by often, but I have been back
Speaker 2: and forth here and there and been there volunteering and
Speaker 2: mentoring hunter. So I've been seeing it. It's looking good.
Speaker 3: Is there any are there any?
Speaker 4: Are there any toads out there right now?
Speaker 2: I don't know about right now, but last year there
Speaker 2: was because no one's sporting their sport and their official
Speaker 2: head gear yet, you know. But I was out there
Speaker 2: with one of the new hunters last year and we
Speaker 2: had a really nice buck stand up on one of
Speaker 2: those fields just out of range and had had a
Speaker 2: really close Yeah. So it's been it's been producing. I mean,
Speaker 2: almost two dozen people I think have killed their first
Speaker 2: year out there.
Speaker 3: Now that's great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's been. It's been really incredible. When we
Speaker 2: have more time, I'll have to actually give you a
Speaker 2: bunch of the details. It's been very cool to see
Speaker 2: what's happened there. And uh, I guess that ties in
Speaker 2: really well to this conversation too, because that that's been
Speaker 2: a whole mentorship kind of story over there, and and
Speaker 2: today I want to talk about mentoring kids. And I
Speaker 2: don't know how you feel about this, Steve. There's some
Speaker 2: days when I think about this whole parenting thing, and
Speaker 2: it feels like I've got it figured out, like things
Speaker 2: are working out. My boys are, you know, coming along
Speaker 2: the way I hope they would, and they're listening great,
Speaker 2: and I'm excited about their future. And then there's other
Speaker 2: days where I'm wondering, Man, how did I get here?
Speaker 2: How am I qualified to do this? What am I
Speaker 2: doing today? You've you've written now two books, the newest
Speaker 2: one coming out June thirteenth, related to this idea of parenting,
Speaker 2: And I'm wondering, do you feel like you're an expert
Speaker 2: at parenting yet? Or do you still have days like
Speaker 2: I'm describing where it's just not happening or you've got
Speaker 2: these question marks.
Speaker 3: First off, man, I would never ever ever say that
Speaker 3: I was an expert in parenting.
Speaker 4: In fact, when I hear of like a parenting.
Speaker 3: Expert, that's the quickest way to get me to tune out. Yeah,
Speaker 3: the quickest way to tune out what I'm here and
Speaker 3: because or to tune them out, because the minute I
Speaker 3: hear that, I imagine someone one who is taking a
Speaker 3: really strange, perhaps alternate path to their expertise or meaning
Speaker 3: that they're applying theory right, that they're like a parenting
Speaker 3: expert in that they're applying theory or developing theory around
Speaker 3: raising kids rather than just the nitty gritty, hands on
Speaker 3: version of it. You know, I know so many great
Speaker 3: parents that I've admired my whole life, and none of
Speaker 3: them has ever uttered parenting expert. It was one time
Speaker 3: my brother Danny was saying that when he when people
Speaker 3: came to him and said, oh, you're such a good dad,
Speaker 3: he would say he would think to himself, meaning that
Speaker 3: I'm not sociopathic, like, of course, I would hope you're
Speaker 3: trying to you know. It's like he congratulated for that
Speaker 3: holding up my end of the bargain. But I uh,
Speaker 3: that's a long winded way of saying. I know, here's
Speaker 3: what I'm an expert on. I'm an expert on after
Speaker 3: my oldest just turned thirteen. I have three kids eight, ten, thirteen.
Speaker 3: I am an expert. Undoubtedly. I am an expert on
Speaker 3: getting your kids outside, whether that's been a success or failure.
Speaker 3: I'm an expert on what it involves to get your
Speaker 3: kids outside, introduce them to nature, and get them into
Speaker 3: hunting and fishing. Like I am an.
Speaker 4: Expert, because I mean, you know, I've been doing it
Speaker 4: for a long time.
Speaker 3: I guess I could get better when I have grandkids,
Speaker 3: and then I did it all the way with my
Speaker 3: kids and all the way with grandkids, maybe I'd be
Speaker 3: even better than I am now. I probably wouldn't feel
Speaker 3: like talking about it anymore. So I have a I
Speaker 3: have thirteen years. I'm a thirteen year veteran of getting
Speaker 3: kids outside messing around.
Speaker 2: Okay, And I think that's that's pretty fair. But it
Speaker 2: sounds like you still have days where you lack a
Speaker 2: full expertise or confidence on the whole rest of the thing.
Speaker 2: There's still questions for her some days.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I like, you know, but my wife sent me
Speaker 3: the their name of my wife sent me a clip
Speaker 3: and it was from a guy. There's a clip from
Speaker 3: Joe Rogan's show. I can't remember who the hell the
Speaker 3: guest was. It was just like a little pullout clip
Speaker 3: and the guy was talking about how frustrating it is
Speaker 3: to have kids. And he was saying, in all your
Speaker 3: interactions with your kids, imagine that you're eighty years old
Speaker 3: and you're given in this moment, in this moment of
Speaker 3: intense frustration, you're given a chance to go baack in
Speaker 3: time and have this interaction at the end of your life,
Speaker 3: you had a chance to go back and have this interaction,
Speaker 3: how would you have it? Then? I don't have. All
Speaker 3: of my interactions with my kids are not how I
Speaker 3: would have them if I was eighty and got a
Speaker 3: chance to go back and do it over again. I
Speaker 3: I'm not successful in that because they're frust They're annoying
Speaker 3: and frustrating. Yeah, my annoyance. So I could say I'm
Speaker 3: getting way better at not getting so annoyed and frustrated
Speaker 3: at my kids all the time. But if you mapped
Speaker 3: my level of an annoyance and frustration on a chart
Speaker 3: and had another line on the chart be how old
Speaker 3: they were, you would find a very tight correlation, meaning
Speaker 3: it just gets it gets easier. But I got I
Speaker 3: got like my kids great, man, they're great. My annoyance
Speaker 3: and frustration was all just physical stuff, right. It was
Speaker 3: like the physical aspect of it, especially when you're outside.
Speaker 3: It's just keeping people warm, keeping people dry, keeping people fed.
Speaker 3: It it's hard, and then you run into this idea
Speaker 3: of of and it's a It plagues a lot of guys,
Speaker 3: a lot of guys, I know, and i'd be lying
Speaker 3: up I said, I didn't feel it too. You're like, man,
Speaker 3: we'd be getting a lot more stuff if these kids
Speaker 3: weren't here, right, And yes, and that war is so
Speaker 3: I recognize it as though, like it's the most valuable
Speaker 3: thing I do. Like like if I had to whittle
Speaker 3: away all aspects of if I had to pick one
Speaker 3: thing and whittle away all their aspects of my life,
Speaker 3: I would I would the one that would be standing
Speaker 3: at the end of it all after I trimmed away
Speaker 3: everything else that.
Speaker 4: Would be standing with like be being with my kids.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, But but it's hard, and I'm not interested in
Speaker 3: someone coming and telling me there's just some little trick
Speaker 3: to escape, to escape every part of it that's so hard.
Speaker 2: So speaking of this like parent child, uh, frustration or
Speaker 2: challenge when you're trying to go outside and do these
Speaker 2: kinds of things. I heard you say once that when
Speaker 2: you thought back to the way your dad introduced you
Speaker 2: and your brothers to the outside, you're shocked that it
Speaker 2: didn't backfire and push you away from honeting and fishing
Speaker 2: and make you not want to do it. What did
Speaker 2: you mean by that? Can you expand on like what
Speaker 2: that childhood, those experiences were that made you feel that way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember when I my mom still lives in
Speaker 3: the house that I was brought up. And I've mentioned
Speaker 3: this before in writing. My room was on the upstairs
Speaker 3: of the house and there's a big like oak tree
Speaker 3: out the window, and I remember waking on hunting days.
Speaker 3: I remember waking up in the dark hoping to see
Speaker 3: that tree blowing like hell and there to be to
Speaker 3: be all wet with rain, because I'd be like, that way,
Speaker 3: I don't have to go and it doesn't need to
Speaker 3: be that. I bailed, Like if the old man called
Speaker 3: it right, He's like that too windy and rainy, and
Speaker 3: we're I canna go out. You don't have to get
Speaker 3: a new tree stands. I'd have been like because the
Speaker 3: last thing I was going to do was back out right.
Speaker 3: And so it was like I felt the guilt about it,
Speaker 3: you know when I've described this before, I said a
Speaker 3: guilt about it that I imagine some people feel, like when
Speaker 3: they don't go to church on Sunday, You're like, oh,
Speaker 3: I do anything to sleep in right, just be hungover? Man?
Speaker 3: If I don't, you know, I feel so bad not
Speaker 3: going to church, I break get up, and a lot
Speaker 3: of times it was like that because there was not
Speaker 3: a lot of attention paid to There's not a lot
Speaker 3: of attention paid to comfort.
Speaker 4: He was extremely demanding.
Speaker 3: He was so uptight about gear maintenance, so uptight about
Speaker 3: the boat being clean, ran around screaming at everybody all
Speaker 3: the time. But man, you learned so much. And the
Speaker 3: other part about it is that and this is the
Speaker 3: thing that I look back like I used to most
Speaker 3: of growing up. I looked at him like, what a
Speaker 3: horrible like that? Yeah, it was horrible to be out
Speaker 3: in the woods with. But to think about it, it
Speaker 3: would have been a laughable notion. As rough as my
Speaker 3: dad was, it would have been a laughable notion that
Speaker 3: he'd be going hunting and fishing and you weren't invited
Speaker 3: to go. There is no way, you know, out of
Speaker 3: school day if you want to go, like, oh that's fine,
Speaker 3: you need to go to school. You were invited. That
Speaker 3: was a huge gift, man, And it came like that
Speaker 3: was the gift.
Speaker 4: The expense was that he was so harsh.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 4: He was a World War two veteran.
Speaker 3: Yeah, by his own definition, he had been what they
Speaker 3: called shell shocked at the time, you know, PTSD stuff.
Speaker 3: He had been he he he had a very he
Speaker 3: wasn't raised his parents didn't raised me. He was raised
Speaker 3: by his grandparents. He had a all these reasons why.
Speaker 4: He was the way it was. But yeah, he was
Speaker 4: just very, very hard.
Speaker 3: And and I and and and uh it's I look
Speaker 3: back and it's funny that I wouldn't have just been well,
Speaker 3: never mind, man, this isn't my lifestyle. But somehow the
Speaker 3: quality of the experience overcame that. And I've tried to
Speaker 3: really learn a lot from that. Like I I I
Speaker 3: in the category of how I relate to my kids
Speaker 3: and the friendships I have with my kids, Uh is
Speaker 3: nowhere is so much better than what I got growing up.
Speaker 3: And in fact, my dad would say, like, I'm not
Speaker 3: here to be your friend.
Speaker 2: How did you translate that experience then into the future
Speaker 2: for yourself? Because I feel like I look back on
Speaker 2: this kind of thing with my own childhood, and I
Speaker 2: think back on all the things I would like to
Speaker 2: do different. But then I also think to myself, well,
Speaker 2: if he hadn't done this, then I wouldn't be like
Speaker 2: I am today, or I wouldn't have developed this you know,
Speaker 2: love for this thing the same way, or the importance
Speaker 2: I place on certain aspects if it weren't for this
Speaker 2: tough thing or this tough thing or this thing that
Speaker 2: I didn't like so much back then. How have you
Speaker 2: tried to balance taking the good from what your dad
Speaker 2: brought to the table versus somehow realizing how to temper
Speaker 2: some of the other edges or soften the edges or
Speaker 2: maybe not.
Speaker 3: I think it's a degree, and it's a point at
Speaker 3: which you pay attention to something. I I this is
Speaker 3: not a handful of times. I many times when I
Speaker 3: was a little kid literally froze my fingertips with my dad. Okay,
Speaker 3: I just don't like, I don't understand how I mean
Speaker 3: coming back with hard tipped white fingertips.
Speaker 4: Jeez, I don't let it like I would never let that.
Speaker 4: I just don't let it.
Speaker 3: Go that far, right, But I still push it, like
Speaker 3: I want them to be uncomfortable. But the point at
Speaker 3: which I'm like willing to sort of look at them
Speaker 3: and express like a level of tenderness and concern for
Speaker 3: how they're doing, it's just it's sooner. I'm just I'm
Speaker 3: more empathetic, h I'm more empathetic than he was. There's
Speaker 3: another thing at play, and just in the spirit of
Speaker 3: like full honesty, there is a in getting your kids
Speaker 3: into the outdoors. I'm not going to sit here and
Speaker 3: tell you that it's l that it's not ell, it's
Speaker 3: not entirely altruistic. Uh it. There are massive benefits of
Speaker 3: the kids, and we can get into that. There's also
Speaker 3: a massive benefit to the parent if the parent wants
Speaker 3: to be outside right right now. I could have things
Speaker 3: in my life that I'm into that don't believe are
Speaker 3: good for me. I don't believe they're good for me. Like,
Speaker 3: let's say, you know, I used to I used to
Speaker 3: drink a fair a bit and like whoop it up
Speaker 3: my buddies back in college and grad school. Right, Uh,
Speaker 3: I had a hell of a good time doing that.
Speaker 3: Did I ever think that that was like good? Was ever?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 3: Man, I can't wait to introduce my kids binge drinking. No,
Speaker 3: but I was like pretty invested in binge drinking once
Speaker 3: upon a time. At the moment, it just happened all
Speaker 3: the time, laugh our asses off all and have like
Speaker 3: a great time and be stupid. But I don't, like,
Speaker 3: I didn't think, boy, when I can do this with
Speaker 3: my children, That'll be phenomenal. Right. I recognize that's a thing,
Speaker 3: it's overwhelmingly negative, but it's the thing I engage in
Speaker 3: with the outdoors. I love it way more than I
Speaker 3: ever loved that, and I want to be out there
Speaker 3: and I think that it's great for the kids. But
Speaker 3: in getting the kids into it, I am servicing my
Speaker 3: own desires as well. I just I think it's really
Speaker 3: important to point out that there's a big selfish part
Speaker 3: of it because that's where I want to be. And
Speaker 3: I could rationalize this in a hundred ways. I could say,
Speaker 3: I want it's important for my kids to see passion,
Speaker 3: to see commitment, to see expertise. Right, it's important for
Speaker 3: me for it's important to me that they witness that,
Speaker 3: and that they witness a role.
Speaker 4: Model of theirs, their dad a role model of theirs.
Speaker 3: Being very engaged, being an advocate for what he loves, right,
Speaker 3: rather than them witnessing a household full of apathy. I
Speaker 3: kind of watch TV, But do I really care about TV? No,
Speaker 3: I'm just watching it, right, Like I sort of begrudgingly
Speaker 3: clean the house, and they get to watch me begrudgingly
Speaker 3: clean the house. I don't know how you're what you're
Speaker 3: teaching them about how to live a passionate, engaged life
Speaker 3: if you're not showing them what it looks like. But
Speaker 3: that's all very logical, and it rationalizes the fact that
Speaker 3: that's where I want to be too.
Speaker 4: So I'm servicing them an it.
Speaker 3: And I'm sure that my dad had that element of dedication.
Speaker 3: I know he did. He had a dedication to fans,
Speaker 3: and he had a dedication to the outdoors. He wanted
Speaker 3: to be outside. He knew his role to his kids,
Speaker 3: and so the thing he had to do is He's like,
Speaker 3: I gotta do that. I got to bring the kids
Speaker 3: with me. And I don't mind showing them now and
Speaker 3: then that that I'm.
Speaker 4: Not entirely happy about their presence here.
Speaker 3: And and I've really tried to switch that around and
Speaker 3: be more aware of being more aware of that that
Speaker 3: I am asking something of them, right, I'm they're accompanying
Speaker 3: me to do a thing I love.
Speaker 4: I hope that they love it too.
Speaker 3: But they're in some way doing me, They're in some
Speaker 3: way indulging me, They're in some way doing me a
Speaker 3: favor to engage in the thing that I love. I
Speaker 3: hope it becomes infectious. But it's a give and take.
Speaker 3: You're giving them parenting, you're giving them fathering. They're giving
Speaker 3: you their days, right, and I think trying to be
Speaker 3: aware of that is really helpful. I don't think these
Speaker 3: are things that occurred to my dad.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So so along those lines, you want this for them,
Speaker 2: You want them to enjoy that, enjoy this. You want
Speaker 2: them to join you out there, you want to be
Speaker 2: out there. I think there's this risk sometimes, or I
Speaker 2: wonder about this risk of wanting it all too bad.
Speaker 2: You want them to feel the same way you feel.
Speaker 2: You want them to have the same experience as you had.
Speaker 2: You want them to get the turkey so damn bad.
Speaker 2: Do you ever worry about that kind of sports dad
Speaker 2: thing happening where you know, the dad wants his son
Speaker 2: to be so good, or he wants his son to
Speaker 2: get the thing you know just right, that you end
Speaker 2: up pushing them away from it, or because you're so
Speaker 2: into it, it drives them away and they want something
Speaker 2: different than what their dad wants for them. Has that
Speaker 2: been something you've you've thought about? Have you seen that
Speaker 2: at all? How do you deal with that?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think about all the time, and here's where
Speaker 3: I here's where I kind of here's where I land
Speaker 3: on it.
Speaker 4: I push them pretty hard, and I push him for.
Speaker 3: Success. We have a little fishing me and some family
Speaker 3: members on a fish and shack in Alaska, and I
Speaker 3: take my kids up there for a couple of weeks
Speaker 3: in summer. If it was up to if they ran
Speaker 3: the program, we would never leave the beach because they
Speaker 3: would just be like messing around with clams and stuff
Speaker 3: and messing around on a rope swing and we'd never
Speaker 3: leave the beach.
Speaker 4: They'd never be in a boat.
Speaker 3: To see, you know, a seventy pound halb that come
Speaker 3: out of the water and harpooning it and drag it
Speaker 3: up in the boat. They wouldn't see it if someone
Speaker 3: wasn't leaning on them heavy. So in pushing them, I'm
Speaker 3: pushing them because I part of it. And again, just
Speaker 3: I want to be I want to maintain. I want
Speaker 3: to say one more time that I'm gonna stop saying it.
Speaker 3: I want to catch fish. Okay, I personally need want
Speaker 3: to catch fish. So I'm just let's not forget that detail.
Speaker 3: That's what I like, right, Why do I think it's
Speaker 3: great for the kids? Because I think that for them
Speaker 3: to see this thing playout of having a goal, making
Speaker 3: a plan about how you're going to do it, executing
Speaker 3: on the plan, overcoming hardship, sticking with it, and then
Speaker 3: out of like this murky depth comes this insane fish
Speaker 3: you know, that you drag up into a boat and
Speaker 3: then eat halibut nuggets off of for the next year
Speaker 3: is like a huge payoff. And if I got to
Speaker 3: pull them by the ear figuratively, if I need to
Speaker 3: drag them by the ear into that discovery, I think
Speaker 3: it's worth it because that is so cool to witness.
Speaker 3: The reason there's the reason I know that that I
Speaker 3: have an like a somewhat imperfect approach to it is
Speaker 3: I catch myself being much more severe with my older
Speaker 3: boy than I am with my daughter, but I get
Speaker 3: the same end result, right, so where they're really both
Speaker 3: like really excited about being outdoors.
Speaker 4: They love hunting and fishing.
Speaker 3: So I have a severe version with my son, and
Speaker 3: it comes from just how I picture father son relationships
Speaker 3: to be and things that were adopted by me subconsciously perhaps,
Speaker 3: And I'm much kinder and gentler with my daughter, but
Speaker 3: she's got an equal drive to be successful. So I
Speaker 3: think that maybe I don't have the perfect way to
Speaker 3: do it, but I'm not shy about I'm not shy
Speaker 3: about leaning on them real heavy.
Speaker 4: Gun safety is one thing.
Speaker 3: I overreact around issues of gun safety because they got
Speaker 3: to know it right. And on issues of technique, yeah,
Speaker 3: like I push really hard. There's right ways and wrong
Speaker 3: ways to do stuff, and they'll say like, well, let
Speaker 3: me see the turkey call. I'm like, not here, you
Speaker 3: practice you anytime you want, We'll practice at home. You're
Speaker 3: not touching it right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been there. I've seen this.
Speaker 3: Right. And you're like, why am I That's like not cool?
Speaker 3: You think, like, if you're the coolest dad in the world,
Speaker 3: would you just hand it to him and let him
Speaker 3: wail away. I'm like, well no, because when I'm really
Speaker 3: trying to show him is how awesome it is to
Speaker 3: having yeah strutter standing twenty yards away. That's cool. They
Speaker 3: think mess them with the turkey calls. They don't even
Speaker 3: know cool until this turkey shows up. So you're like,
Speaker 3: you're denying.
Speaker 4: I don't want to call them impulses.
Speaker 3: You're stealing from them little moments that they'd like to
Speaker 3: have in service of like the real crazy moments, they're
Speaker 3: going to change their lives.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So many people talk about how you got to
Speaker 2: keep it fun, you got to keep it light, You've
Speaker 2: got to stay on their schedule with their priorities first.
Speaker 2: And I think what I'm hearing from you is that
Speaker 2: sometimes we as the parent, know that the tougher path,
Speaker 2: if we were to follow it, will lead to a
Speaker 2: longer term win. It'll lead to a longer term satisfaction.
Speaker 2: If they can push through this, if they can listen
Speaker 2: to me on this, if they can get to the
Speaker 2: point where the strutter shows up, or if they can
Speaker 2: make it through the shitty cold or any day and
Speaker 2: see you know, the results of it, that will actually
Speaker 2: be more valuable in the long run than having three
Speaker 2: outings where they had suckers and andy bars and came
Speaker 2: home after fifty minutes.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And we're talking about evolving organisms here, right.
Speaker 3: I mean, these things they get older, so you're you're
Speaker 3: you're fine tuning it to what they're capable of early on,
Speaker 3: early on, getting your kids involved in nature and getting
Speaker 3: them into hunting and fishing early on when they're two,
Speaker 3: is going out and rolling rotten logs out of the ground.
Speaker 3: Ye right, yep, that's it. It's like lesson number one,
Speaker 3: and you can't pound it into them. You can't yell
Speaker 3: at them about technique. It's like you go out, take
Speaker 3: a rotten log, roll it out and pick up the
Speaker 3: stuff underneath it.
Speaker 4: Less number one.
Speaker 3: Don't be afraid of anything, Yeah, unless it really warrants
Speaker 3: being afraid of. Guarter snake, pick it up, bull snake,
Speaker 3: pick it up, rattlesnake. Don't touch it sending a piece.
Speaker 3: Let them wash. Watch across your hand, beehives, watch out,
Speaker 3: ants pick them up. You know.
Speaker 4: It's like worms. Every worm possible goes in your hand.
Speaker 3: And that's just there's no there's no like bullying, dragging
Speaker 3: by the ear, conjoling.
Speaker 4: It's just presenting. It's just presenting experience.
Speaker 2: And what age shift for you? With the boy with
Speaker 2: the kids start to interrupt? But at what point did
Speaker 2: it shift from that to the next phase?
Speaker 3: I started getting My eight year old, he's just about
Speaker 3: to get into uh, he's just about to get into
Speaker 3: where he's gonna get leaned down a lot more heavy.
Speaker 3: My thirteen year old.
Speaker 4: It's no holds barred.
Speaker 2: Yep, he's just another one of the guys.
Speaker 3: Right he at his age right now, the expectation is
Speaker 3: that it's like, the expectation is high that get a
Speaker 3: string it. If you have a problem with the not
Speaker 3: let me know, but like, I'm gonna look at you
Speaker 3: in an annoyed way if you come to me to
Speaker 3: tie that thing on again. Yeah, if you're gonna tell
Speaker 3: me you need help taking that fish off the hook,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna really look at you, like really, Yeah, it's
Speaker 3: high expectations right now, my eight year old, I'm still
Speaker 3: really willing to indulge and do some hand holding. But
Speaker 3: where I'm not willing to indulge is I'm not gonna
Speaker 3: go out there and come back home in thirty minutes.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And he came out turkey hunting with us this year.
Speaker 4: He wasn't first up, but he was. He was there
Speaker 4: all morning.
Speaker 3: He kept telling me he was gonna throw up, and
Speaker 3: I finally started taking him serious when he got real pale.
Speaker 3: And then he threw up before we could get back
Speaker 3: to my buddy's house, and I was like, wow, he
Speaker 3: really he really didn't He really didn't feel good. Well
Speaker 3: I felt a little bit about that, But you know
Speaker 3: what I'm saying, I'm like, like I I I they're not.
Speaker 3: I don't. At eight, they're definitely not running the show.
Speaker 3: But but and this is very you know, this is
Speaker 3: as you know, this is highly variable. Like one, you
Speaker 3: know one kid from the next I was just I
Speaker 3: have a friend of mine I just spend some time with.
Speaker 3: And he's a spearfishing guide, fishing guide.
Speaker 4: He's got a nine year old boy, and in certain areas,
Speaker 4: I was, I wash he's very diract, very diract, and
Speaker 4: his kid is incredibly competent.
Speaker 3: And his kid is eat and breathe like fishing all
Speaker 3: that kid wants to do. Okay, So this guy, his
Speaker 3: name's Cam. He he recognizes that there's no ruin it
Speaker 3: with this kid.
Speaker 4: You're not going to push him too hard because he's
Speaker 4: all in.
Speaker 3: This is he this is his life, this will be
Speaker 3: his life. And he's very competent. And at that age
Speaker 3: nine years old, his dad talks to him like a peer.
Speaker 3: Get this, get that, get down off that thing, put
Speaker 3: your son's screen on. There's like zero assistance. It's so funny.
Speaker 3: It's like direct orders. But this kid's bought in, dude.
Speaker 3: So he's not in a state of kind of being
Speaker 3: like he's not in a state where he might be like,
Speaker 3: We're like, man, I can't tell him, I am I
Speaker 3: not doing this right? Am I ruining something? You know?
Speaker 3: Maybe I should adjust my approach, Like if you get
Speaker 3: where I haven't had this problem yet, but if I had,
Speaker 3: if one of my children just got to where they
Speaker 3: didn't they didn't have fun, they weren't liking it, they
Speaker 3: were trying to they were avoiding it. You know, by
Speaker 3: the time they got to be ten years old, twelve
Speaker 3: years old and they weren't into it, I would probably
Speaker 3: at that point, honestly, I would really probably reconsider my
Speaker 3: approach a six year old I'm not interested in what
Speaker 3: they want to do. Yeah, yeah, Well, when we make
Speaker 3: plans even now, if we're gonna go camp for the weekend,
Speaker 3: even at our kids ages eight, ten, thirteen, if we're
Speaker 3: going camp for the weekend, the last thing I'm gonna
Speaker 3: do is ask them, you know, say, hey, this is
Speaker 3: what's happening this weekend. Now, I'll give you a ton
Speaker 3: of latitude within that to do what you'd like to do.
Speaker 3: But that's what's happening this weekend. If you want to go,
Speaker 3: bring your friend, that's fine. If you want to bring
Speaker 3: your hammock or bring whatever or card games whatever.
Speaker 4: That's great, But the basics are we're going camping.
Speaker 3: Within that, I'm gonna give you as much room to
Speaker 3: customize the situation as you'd like. But that's happening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, Yeah, that that framework.
Speaker 3: People yep, And I see people give that up, and yeah,
Speaker 3: I don't. I don't. I don't ever want to criticize
Speaker 3: other families. I got families that I got. I know
Speaker 3: families that raise kids and skyrise apartments in big cities
Speaker 3: and they have just absolutely fantastic, wonderful, loving, kind, curious kids.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of ways to skin a cat. Uh.
Speaker 3: I would never say there's not, but uh, that's those parents.
Speaker 3: That's not their life, right the way it's my life.
Speaker 3: And so since this is my life, I I need
Speaker 3: to I want to manipulate the situation to create a
Speaker 3: livable experience for everybody.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, so much of what I've you know,
Speaker 2: read from you or heard from you talk about when
Speaker 2: it comes to your kids and the outdoors, is you
Speaker 2: using these outdoor experiences as a classroom for teaching many
Speaker 2: different kinds of life lessons. Absolutely, And one of the
Speaker 2: things that I think you've approached in some of your
Speaker 2: you know, in the book Outdoor Kids, Inside World and
Speaker 2: some of the other podcasts. I've heard things you've talked
Speaker 2: about risk and the outside, hunting, fishing, whatever it might
Speaker 2: be as as an opportunity to teach kids about how
Speaker 2: to assess risk. But I'm also curious about how you,
Speaker 2: as the parent, assess risk when adventuring outside with your kids,
Speaker 2: because that's something I've started thinking a lot about too.
Speaker 2: It's like, Okay, I want to plan a backpacking trip
Speaker 2: with my boys, or I'm going to do a float
Speaker 2: trip with the boys, And how do I think about
Speaker 2: the risk of taking them on this adventure while also
Speaker 2: teaching them about how to assess risk themselves. How have
Speaker 2: you thought about that yourself with your kids and how
Speaker 2: has that evolved over time.
Speaker 3: I want to start out by answering this question by
Speaker 3: saying this, you want to know what's landed our kids
Speaker 3: in emergency rooms? Uh uh? Swing sets, scooters, legos Okay, yeah, uh.
Speaker 3: As much as it's perceived and my wife and I
Speaker 3: laugh about this, as much as it's perceived by her
Speaker 3: that we're engaged in all these dangerous activities, there's no
Speaker 3: to date, there's no evidence to back this up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, not gonna would, right.
Speaker 3: She bought, she bought the kids of swing set. Dude, wasn't.
Speaker 3: Twenty four hours later we got a broken arm. I'm
Speaker 3: not kidding you, just like that. Yeah, so so uh
Speaker 3: I am more. If you were to go and take
Speaker 3: out of the man, let's say you're gonna go randomly
Speaker 3: pull a hundred You're gonna go randomly pull a hundred
Speaker 3: parents off the street, one hundred American parents off the street,
Speaker 3: and rank us in terms of risk tolerance outdoor risk tolerance.
Speaker 3: I would probably sit with the least risk tolerant at
Speaker 3: one and the most risk tolerant at one hundred, meaning
Speaker 3: one can't go outside because you're gonna get bit by
Speaker 3: a tick or mosquitos to stand inside all day every day.
Speaker 3: One hundred being hey kids, we're gonna climb K two.
Speaker 3: I'm in the nineties, low nineties. You're up there, I'm
Speaker 3: up there. What I have? This is gonna sound I
Speaker 3: don't want to sound. I hope this doesn't sound arrogant
Speaker 3: in some way. But I just have a like for
Speaker 3: a long time, just because I was dedicated to it,
Speaker 3: and now because of just a lot of professional experience
Speaker 3: I have. I just have enjoyed in existence of having
Speaker 3: a lot of exposure to stuff. So I have developed
Speaker 3: a really good understanding of what actually matters and what
Speaker 3: doesn't actually matter. Meaning I don't think this is to
Speaker 3: take an example that people would be able to relate
Speaker 3: to Mountain lions don't matter. They don't warrant any consideration.
Speaker 3: Black bears don't matter. They don't warrant any consideration. Tics. Okay,
Speaker 3: stick cary pathogens warrant considerations. Ticks that don't carry pathogens
Speaker 3: don't really warrant considerations, right, Like, I have a really
Speaker 3: detailed sense from exposure and from being able to hang
Speaker 3: out a lot, I have a detailed sense of like
Speaker 3: what matters and what doesn't matter. Yep, being in being
Speaker 3: in small boats at certain water temperatures matters a lot
Speaker 3: more than other water temperatures. Right. So, so so someone
Speaker 3: looking might be like, oh my god, that seems like
Speaker 3: dangerous or I can't you know, And I'm like, explain
Speaker 3: how you explain why you think that? Because I, like,
Speaker 3: I don't agree. I don't agree. I don't think it's dangerous.
Speaker 3: I think that factors could be a little different and
Speaker 3: it can be real dangerous. But I don't agree that
Speaker 3: this is dangerous because you can't point to me what is.
Speaker 3: You can't point to me the high probability of something
Speaker 3: that's gonna happen.
Speaker 2: So much of it comes down to your, like you said,
Speaker 2: your level of competence and context, right, I mean if
Speaker 2: you if someone took you off the mountain in Montana
Speaker 2: and sends you, I don't know, downtown Paris or something
Speaker 2: and said, all right, teach your kids how to I
Speaker 2: don't know, ride a unicycle down this busy street. Well,
Speaker 2: that'd be pretty risky for you. But maybe there's this
Speaker 2: is a horrible example, but maybe there's a circus worker
Speaker 2: in Paris who does that every day, and he'd be like, Nope,
Speaker 2: this is easy for me. This is something I understand.
Speaker 2: This is the world I live in. And in that case,
Speaker 2: you know, it varies depending on where you come from,
Speaker 2: what your skill set is, what your competence is in
Speaker 2: that situation, and so so I understand your point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we we hang out a lot, like we spend
Speaker 3: a lot of time in Grizzly Country, and there are
Speaker 3: times in grizzly Country. There are times when I'm on
Speaker 3: high alert. There are times when someone will be like,
Speaker 3: think that you had your guard down. Is it we're
Speaker 3: just getting up in the morning and they're coming out
Speaker 3: of their camp, out of the camp or in the
Speaker 3: early morning. That matters to me? Is it that it's
Speaker 3: the afternoon and their dog is out playing with them
Speaker 3: and we've all been out making tons of racket and
Speaker 3: the dog is like very tuned into stuff like that,
Speaker 3: and the dog has covered every square inch of ground
Speaker 3: within three hundred yards. My attitude is different because I'm
Speaker 3: just like weighing all the stuff that's going on. Also,
Speaker 3: I'm looking at like, look what kind of injury? You know.
Speaker 3: I encourage my kids to climb trees because I don't
Speaker 3: think they're gonna They're not gonna, I mean they could,
Speaker 3: They're not gonna fall out a tree and die. Probably
Speaker 3: they might fall out a tree and break your arm,
Speaker 3: but they break you. Already broke his arm out of
Speaker 3: swing set, so like, I'm not I can live with
Speaker 3: a broken arm. My kid had lime disease. I couldn't
Speaker 3: live with that. That was hard. That caused a lot
Speaker 3: of guilt, and it caused a lot of concern for
Speaker 3: his well being, and it was some of the worst
Speaker 3: weeks of my life. Okay, So I just have a
Speaker 3: I feel that it's important for people to develop a calibrated,
Speaker 3: a finely calibrated sense of risk. I talk a lot
Speaker 3: about this in Outdoor Kids in an inside world is
Speaker 3: just getting educated enough to understand what matters and what
Speaker 3: doesn't matter.
Speaker 2: So, speaking of some of these things in Outdoor Kids
Speaker 2: and inside world, there's another, I guess another one of
Speaker 2: these lessons that stood out to me, and this you
Speaker 2: wrote about kind of this relationship to nature that we
Speaker 2: are trying to help foster with our children, and that
Speaker 2: can come from hunting or fishing or many different things.
Speaker 2: But you talked about this really interesting concept of looking
Speaker 2: down at nature versus looking up at nature, and it
Speaker 2: seemed to me that that your belief is that we
Speaker 2: ought to try to help our children understand to live
Speaker 2: somewhere in between. Can you can you span on that?
Speaker 2: Can you explain what you mean by that and why
Speaker 2: that matters as we are trying to introduce our kids
Speaker 2: to these things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, looking down at nature, I talk about looking down
Speaker 3: at it, looking up at it, and be an eye level.
Speaker 3: Looking down at nature is very easy to explain it's
Speaker 3: it's the idea that everything's gross and dangerous. Okay, you
Speaker 3: are in outside of something like maybe like some kind
Speaker 3: of like a cute iraq and aphobia or things like that.
Speaker 3: You're in the driver's seat on whether your kids think
Speaker 3: that everything's gross and dangerous, they're just they're absorbing it
Speaker 3: from you. There's individual personality at play, but by and large,
Speaker 3: your kids if you think nature is gross and and
Speaker 3: they're gonna absorb that, you don't need to even say it.
Speaker 3: Your body landlang, which tells them being dirty is bad.
Speaker 3: Looking up at nature is something much more modern. The
Speaker 3: peril of looking down at nature is that you disregard
Speaker 3: it and disrespect it, and would just as soon do
Speaker 3: away with it. I'm thinking of a common practice where
Speaker 3: I grew up, of going down to the beach and
Speaker 3: buying a bunch of sand, trucking a bunch of sand,
Speaker 3: and taking around up and killing off every bit of
Speaker 3: vegetation along the beach, dumping a bunch of sand down,
Speaker 3: and then knowing you've vanquished everything slimy or crawley, you
Speaker 3: can finally sit down in your chair and enjoy your day. Right,
Speaker 3: It's like looking down at it, looking up at it,
Speaker 3: like I said, is newer. And this is this idea
Speaker 3: that nature is so pure and pristine that human presence
Speaker 3: spoils it. That you know, I live not far from
Speaker 3: Yellowstone Park. Could be that you'd go to Yellowstone and
Speaker 3: anything beyond looking out your window is spoiling the landscape.
Speaker 4: Humans are bad. Were the ones that are gross, Were
Speaker 4: the ones that are dirty? Were the ones that foul everything?
Speaker 4: And it can create a where nature has an otherness
Speaker 4: and it lacks relevance in one's life. Where you imagine
Speaker 4: there's nature that sits separately from human existence and that
Speaker 4: the two are incompatible, and that creates a sensibility that
Speaker 4: that in and around us, in our living spaces and
Speaker 4: our yards and things, that we're not regarding these as a.
Speaker 3: Compromise between us and nature. I would much rather have
Speaker 3: my kids understand that there is a way to engage
Speaker 3: explit like, explicitly engage with nature in a hands on
Speaker 3: way that is productive for them and is productive for
Speaker 3: the natural world, because any other perspective is ridiculous. In
Speaker 3: this world today, there is no putting the genie back
Speaker 3: into the bottle. This is a human We live in
Speaker 3: a human engineered human manipulated ecosystem We live in human engineered,
Speaker 3: human manipulated ecosystems. There is no having a world in
Speaker 3: which nature sits outside of us. Most landscapes that we
Speaker 3: live on are already massively impacted by humans. It will
Speaker 3: take it's human impact that will restore them and make
Speaker 3: them better. In our yard, in our yard, in the
Speaker 3: areas around our yard. It's like improvements to nature inviting nature.
Speaker 3: Interactions come from hand on, hands on involvement. Yeah, And
Speaker 3: so I want them to under stand that their actions
Speaker 3: have impact. Right that you can make a brush pile,
Speaker 3: And we did this last fall. I was like, I
Speaker 3: bet you if we made a brush power right here,
Speaker 3: rabbits can move in and live in this brush pile.
Speaker 3: We made a brush pile. A rabbit moved in and
Speaker 3: lived in that brush pile.
Speaker 2: That's awesome.
Speaker 3: They couldn't believe it. They ate all all the sticks
Speaker 3: we put ate, all the bark all year off the
Speaker 3: sticks we put down in there. And and that is
Speaker 3: hands on relationship to nature, right, Like they have power
Speaker 3: to do good and they have power to do bad.
Speaker 3: And that I think is like trying to demonstrate that
Speaker 3: like nature at eye level.
Speaker 2: So kind of taking that next step. You you also
Speaker 2: talk about the idea of thinking native and helping your
Speaker 2: kids understand that, as you just said, that we are
Speaker 2: a part of this natural world, not outside of it,
Speaker 2: and the next step. In my mind, a lot of
Speaker 2: times when I'm thinking about out there doing stuff with
Speaker 2: my kids, right shoot a buck and the kids come
Speaker 2: help me track it down and they're seeing it, I
Speaker 2: constantly am thinking about how do I, or should I,
Speaker 2: or when should I be connecting the dots between just
Speaker 2: the hunting or fishing activity and then the conservation context.
Speaker 2: You know, when I grew up, When I grew up,
Speaker 2: I just did the things. We just did it. We hunted,
Speaker 2: we fished. I was taught to love it, I was
Speaker 2: taught to respect it. But I never once heard about
Speaker 2: public land or how we got it. I never once
Speaker 2: heard about the Pittman Robertson that. I never once heard
Speaker 2: about the fact that we need to advocate for these things.
Speaker 2: That wasn't something I learned about till I was an adult.
Speaker 2: And so I wonder, now, you know, when should I
Speaker 2: start introducing those things, or if I do it too early,
Speaker 2: am I going to overwhelm them or stamp out the
Speaker 2: fun of it because I'm trying to teach too much.
Speaker 2: How have you thought about that, Steve, as far as
Speaker 2: taking that next step and understanding how we have these
Speaker 2: things and how we keep them around.
Speaker 3: I was brought up the same way. Uh we lived
Speaker 3: by and uh we live by and use the national
Speaker 3: forest that that that you ask anybody that lived in
Speaker 3: that area, the best explanation they could give you is
Speaker 3: that it fell from the sky. I was raised hunting ducks.
Speaker 3: I was never told that ducks were nearly wiped out.
Speaker 3: I was raised hunting deer. I was never told the
Speaker 3: stories about when you couldn't find a deer track in
Speaker 3: that area. Uh. I don't know why. There's they're extremely important.
Speaker 3: I think that that stuff that's where. That's where the
Speaker 3: dinner table, that's where being in the car driving down
Speaker 3: the road. That's where the books that you leave out
Speaker 3: for them, the books you read for them at night,
Speaker 3: that's where that stuff plays in. It plays out in
Speaker 3: the field too, But that's just baked into everyday life.
Speaker 3: My kids are not gonna remember, like they probably still
Speaker 3: couldn't tell it to you since the day they've been born.
Speaker 3: I don't care where we're at and we've lived in
Speaker 3: a handful of places. I always will say, if you
Speaker 3: pour a cup of water out in your yard, you
Speaker 3: take a leak in the yard, here's the path by
Speaker 3: which that water would go to the ocean. Right, it
Speaker 3: would go into like this creek, and it would flow
Speaker 3: into that creek, and it'd flow into that river, and
Speaker 3: that river had flown into that river, and that river
Speaker 3: would pick that river up and that's where that would
Speaker 3: wind up. And we were one time on vacation, right,
Speaker 3: Like I'm always pounding that stuff into them, but I
Speaker 3: just it's it's it's infused everywhere. It's like I and
Speaker 3: I talked about well with our activity book Catch a Crayfish,
Speaker 3: Count Stars, the one of that that's coming out as soon.
Speaker 3: It's meant like more four kids. It's not about kids,
Speaker 3: but it's four kids. We have a lot of stuff
Speaker 3: about in the home, right and how to like bring
Speaker 3: nature in the home. I talk about the same thing
Speaker 3: and outdoor kids in an inside the world is this
Speaker 3: how do you create a home environment where these kind
Speaker 3: of things are.
Speaker 4: Are are are part of.
Speaker 3: It, And it's the books you read, the conversations you have.
Speaker 3: One of the beauties of hunting and fishing for your food.
Speaker 3: Is that that's what we eat. We eat wild game
Speaker 3: at our house when we're at home. You know, we
Speaker 3: go to restaurants, right and don't. But when we're home,
Speaker 3: we're really strict about it. And when we're eating something,
Speaker 3: we're talking about it, right, We're not, we're not. We're
Speaker 3: probably not talking about how you get it. We're not
Speaker 3: talking about how you get a deer. We're probably talking
Speaker 3: about deer, the history of deer, yea, how people utilize
Speaker 3: deer historically, just all those narratives, right, And it's and
Speaker 3: again it's it's it's the stuff I like to learn about,
Speaker 3: and it's the stuff I like to talk about it.
Speaker 4: But they're they're all of their world is framed to
Speaker 4: include all of that information, all of the context. I
Speaker 4: didn't start personally finding out about this stuff untils in
Speaker 4: my twenties.
Speaker 3: I'm not making that mistake of my kids. And I
Speaker 3: don't want to say my dad made a mistake. This
Speaker 3: wasn't on his radar. But conservation history and natural history
Speaker 3: and that the moon does this and the sun does that,
Speaker 3: that's just baked in. That's every day. Yeah, a little
Speaker 3: snippet every day.
Speaker 2: Yep, So you mentioned Ketch a Crayfish new book coming
Speaker 2: out June thirteenth. You mentioned it's it's four kids, not
Speaker 2: about kids, But can you elaborate a little bit, you know,
Speaker 2: why this book?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 2: Why did you decide that this was the next thing?
Speaker 2: And what age do you feel like this is kind
Speaker 2: of geared towards what do you hope comes out of someone,
Speaker 2: some kids, some boy or girl getting this book for
Speaker 2: their birthday and opening up the pages.
Speaker 4: We started to conceive of it.
Speaker 3: We started to conceive of the kids Activity book while
Speaker 3: I was working on Outdoor Kids in the Inside World,
Speaker 3: where Outdoor Kids in the Inside World was sort of
Speaker 3: like a parent you know, it's me. It's it's largely essayistic,
Speaker 3: but it's structured around themes about experiences and experiences and
Speaker 3: advice and other things about how to get your kids outdoors.
Speaker 3: And the book is also like a sympathetic ear to
Speaker 3: the struggles that people encounter how to overcome those struggles.
Speaker 3: While we're doing it, we thought like it would be
Speaker 3: really cool to do a book that made.
Speaker 4: Some of those same learnings real meaning.
Speaker 3: And Outdoor Kids and Inside World there's a chat after
Speaker 3: on how to approach having a garden and catch a
Speaker 3: carry fish, count stars, which is the So let's let's
Speaker 3: imagine it as the kid's hands on version of this.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of projects around gardening, okay.
Speaker 3: The the Kid's Activity Book. I think that if you know,
Speaker 3: someone might look at that book and think that it
Speaker 3: was seemed to have a lot of like, uh, seemed
Speaker 3: to have a lot of different kind of weapons and
Speaker 3: dangerous stuff in it, you know, and it really does,
Speaker 3: like how to make a bow, how to make a
Speaker 3: blow gun, how to how to sneak up on stuff
Speaker 3: and build blinds and and all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my five year old picked up on that blowgun
Speaker 2: picture real quick. Oh he saw that immediately said we
Speaker 2: need to make one of those dead.
Speaker 3: Oh. Yeah, and I learned that, I say, I think
Speaker 3: I mentioned in there that I learned later or while working,
Speaker 3: uh that there's states where it's actually illegal to make
Speaker 3: a book, and they don't define it very clearly either.
Speaker 3: So it's funny, but.
Speaker 4: Uh, it's like.
Speaker 3: It's hands on stuff that you need to dig in
Speaker 3: and you need to get into it and find out
Speaker 3: what your kids are going to need help with and
Speaker 3: what your kids are going to be able to safely
Speaker 3: do on their own. But it's it's meant for projects
Speaker 3: that are going to increase competency, build risk assessment capabilities, dexterity,
Speaker 3: environmental awareness. Okay, so things around basics, around celestial navigation,
Speaker 3: basics around little survival skills that are built into projects
Speaker 3: kids can do, based around uh, outdoor ingenuity. Okay. So
Speaker 3: it's like when I looked at it, I was looking
Speaker 3: at if you let's say you're someone like you and me, Mark,
Speaker 3: and you know that you're going to put a high
Speaker 3: priority on being outdoors with your kids. It's a lot
Speaker 3: of the stuff that that you want to get around,
Speaker 3: you want to get around to teaching them and they'd
Speaker 3: be great if they knew, and it puts in the
Speaker 3: way that they can just tackle it and do a
Speaker 3: thing a day, a thing a week, spend their summer
Speaker 3: working on it. Some of it's and all of it's
Speaker 3: like pretty rewarding and pretty fun. And there's those things
Speaker 3: in there like, uh, you know, there's there's tool use
Speaker 3: where you're gonna need to get involved. There's things where
Speaker 3: you you know, a machete or a hatchet would be helpful,
Speaker 3: or you're gonna need your parents to help you drill
Speaker 3: some holes and stuff, or you're going to make a
Speaker 3: blowgun and need to set up a target and talk
Speaker 3: real seriously about what that blowgun should be used for
Speaker 3: not used for, And and and also understanding like issues
Speaker 3: around risk assessment, understanding how to like produce your own food,
Speaker 3: how to produce food and cook something for your for
Speaker 3: your siblings and your parent. Right so sell things that
Speaker 3: generate self sufficiency, situational awareness, outdoor expertise.
Speaker 4: And even though you might look and be like, oh, it.
Speaker 3: Seems that some of this stuff is dangerous, I would
Speaker 3: look at it too like a lot of this stuff
Speaker 3: drives ultimately safety because it creates expertise and a skill
Speaker 3: set where you're learning with guidance how to do stuff right,
Speaker 3: how to whittle, how to drill holes, how to be
Speaker 3: around a campfire, so that in a supervised sense, a
Speaker 3: kid can pick up some good know how. And then
Speaker 3: if you see, like if I do, if I tell
Speaker 3: my kids to go out and make a fire in
Speaker 3: the fire pit at all of their ages, I know
Speaker 3: that they can go out and do that mat and
Speaker 3: they know the rules, because at some point they're gonna
Speaker 3: want to do it, and you could have taken that
Speaker 3: chance when they were young to teach them like how
Speaker 3: to do it?
Speaker 4: What are the risks? How do you mitigate for those risks?
Speaker 4: How do you do it properly?
Speaker 3: Or you just leave it hanging h right until they're
Speaker 3: all enough to be out on their own doing stupid stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think I think it makes a lot
Speaker 2: of sense getting mad. I've always thought, with so many things,
Speaker 2: the earlier the better to establish those foundations and to
Speaker 2: get that experience, and to build up to the point
Speaker 2: where they can you know, I'd much rather than figure
Speaker 2: this stuff out now while I'm here with them than
Speaker 2: when they're sixteen on their own with their buddies. Another thing,
Speaker 2: another thing I noticed when I was just looking through
Speaker 2: the book and looking through it with my kids was
Speaker 2: just how many things as as as someone whose life
Speaker 2: is outside right, I mean, we're constantly doing these outdoor things.
Speaker 2: There's so many different little projects that I just take
Speaker 2: for granted now that I just never even think about.
Speaker 2: But actually, if I were to take the time and
Speaker 2: slow down and talk about this with one of my sons,
Speaker 2: there would be real value, Like walking in a straight
Speaker 2: line through the woods, like something as simple as that
Speaker 2: we just do all the time. But actually, you know,
Speaker 2: calling out in the book here like you did, and
Speaker 2: talking about well, how do you do that? How do
Speaker 2: you use landmarks? How do you navigate? You know, there's
Speaker 2: there's real value in or just little things that you know.
Speaker 2: One of the things we did just the other day
Speaker 2: after taking a look of the book, was we found
Speaker 2: an alpellet and dissected it and it was just a
Speaker 2: great reminder like, oh yeah, these things are sitting around
Speaker 2: and they are pretty darn cool if you take some time,
Speaker 2: oh yeah, to do it with your cast and so
Speaker 2: and so. Yeah, me and the two boys, the three
Speaker 2: year old in the five are were picking apart regurgitated
Speaker 2: mouse and had a blast with it.
Speaker 3: You know, my kids every year spent a couple few
Speaker 3: days my friend dog at his farm.
Speaker 5: And dog likes to say that's life and death on
Speaker 5: the fire, you know, I think the looking at owl palaces,
Speaker 5: like that's life and death in the woods.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good lesson to learn. So, uh, do
Speaker 2: do you or your kids have a favorite from the book?
Speaker 2: Favorite activity? Is there anything that stands out to you
Speaker 2: or that your that your family has particularly enjoyed you
Speaker 2: can think of.
Speaker 6: Man, Yeah, they like, uh, they like it's so funny.
Speaker 3: Man. They like anything involves fire, like stuff with projectiles.
Speaker 2: Yes, I guess that's pretty coming.
Speaker 4: Pretty you know, it's pretty understandable.
Speaker 3: Area where the day they're gonna run toward that. Right,
Speaker 3: anything on fire in their mind is like good, So
Speaker 3: that needs to be directed, harness educated, you know, projectile.
Speaker 3: Same way. And area where they really like the results
Speaker 3: but they just don't connect the labor with the results
Speaker 3: is gardening. They love planting seeds, they love picking stuff.
Speaker 3: All the stuff in the middle is without you leaning
Speaker 3: on them heavy, it's just you're not gonna get it
Speaker 3: out of them. And I think that helping them understand
Speaker 3: that that middle stuff is real important to the later
Speaker 3: stuff is great. One of the best things I st
Speaker 3: of growing was I tailored my garden to what's gonna
Speaker 3: catch their eye.
Speaker 4: Carrots and strawberries.
Speaker 3: Man, right, they can't.
Speaker 4: They don't stay away.
Speaker 3: From either of them. They're always out there messing around.
Speaker 3: And they like the fruits of the labor, but they
Speaker 3: they dislike the labor. But if I say, hey, go
Speaker 3: out and build a fire, you know we're gonna go
Speaker 3: out sit by the fire. Gonna make a fire, dude,
Speaker 3: They're going to fight over it. So, uh, it's just little.
Speaker 3: It's a little you know, looking at what they love
Speaker 3: and helping them figure out and help them learn how
Speaker 3: to do it right. And then and then some coersion
Speaker 3: on other stuff, and and and and and understanding that
Speaker 3: processes are long. Sometimes processes are long, and you got
Speaker 3: to stay you gotta stay with it. One of the
Speaker 3: projects we have is just how to start measuring rainfall. Right,
Speaker 3: you do the project is pretty quick, but then you
Speaker 3: know what you gotta do, wait for the rain. It's
Speaker 3: like a thing. Right, They're like, okay, You're like, well, ain.
Speaker 4: And rain for a week, stay tuned.
Speaker 2: A lot a lot of important lessons there. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of good stuff in both of these books, Steve,
Speaker 2: but uh the Catch a cray Fish in particular, my
Speaker 2: son Everett, who's five now, when I told him this
Speaker 2: was a kid's book, and he said, you, I mean
Speaker 2: Steve wrote this for me? Well, and I said, well,
Speaker 2: I guess. So he's obsessive that he just likes to
Speaker 2: page through it now and look at the pictures and say,
Speaker 2: can we do this one?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 2: Can we do this one?
Speaker 3: So? So good. There's a lot of there's a lot
Speaker 3: of good fun stuff in there, and they call you
Speaker 3: asked about age.
Speaker 4: You know, the way it works, the books that you
Speaker 4: have to kind of like picking you know, I.
Speaker 3: Can't remember, you know that the way they's there's a
Speaker 3: whole system to it. But I think our recommendation is
Speaker 3: I think it was the one up being eight and up.
Speaker 3: I think at you know, at fifteen sixteen, you're probably
Speaker 3: getting a bit for the book. I think that at
Speaker 3: eight you a lot of kids have been ready, are
Speaker 3: already ready for it. At eight, I imagine the real
Speaker 3: you know, ten even twelve being just you know, nine, ten, eleven,
Speaker 3: twelve being great, great years for just most kids. I
Speaker 3: think in that in that handful of years is when
Speaker 3: it would be most applicable. But there's enough in there
Speaker 3: where you can really shop around in there, right.
Speaker 2: Sure makes for great I mean for the younger kids too,
Speaker 2: Like with my three and five year old, even just
Speaker 2: it's an opportunity for me to read them something interesting
Speaker 2: I can pick and shoes in there. You've got some
Speaker 2: great little sidebars talking about different conservationists or impactful people.
Speaker 2: So I think there's some cool little bedtime story opportunities
Speaker 2: and then a teaching activity that you know I can
Speaker 2: guide as a parent. So I've enjoyed that so far too.
Speaker 2: And man, it's good stuff, Steve. I appreciate it. And
Speaker 2: I know you got to run, So I just want
Speaker 2: to thank you for carving out the time to talk
Speaker 2: about this stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm manning slot Mark. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: This is gonna be a book I'm sure will be
Speaker 2: following me around for many years to come as my
Speaker 2: boys continue to work their way through it. All right,
Speaker 2: And that is a wrap. Thank you for tuning in,
Speaker 2: Thanks for being with me this whole month, as we
Speaker 2: have taken kind of a left turn off of the
Speaker 2: usual path of talking deer hunting, and instead we have
Speaker 2: maybe zoom out to some of these bigger picture topics
Speaker 2: that a lot of us are experiencing. Maybe we experienced
Speaker 2: them in the past, maybe we're in the throes of
Speaker 2: it right now, living the parenting life every single day,
Speaker 2: or maybe you are listening and contemplating do I want kids?
Speaker 2: Is this something I can do? I hope to each
Speaker 2: and every one of you in any one of those phases,
Speaker 2: I hope there's been something here useful, beneficial, beneficial, insightful
Speaker 2: and enjoyable. So thanks for being on this ride with me,
Speaker 2: thank you for being a part of this community, and
Speaker 2: until next time, stay wired to Hunt.