Speaker 1: What's up, everybody. I'm Gammy and this is positively gam
Speaker 1: The topic for today's discussion on wadering yourself down in
Speaker 1: white spaces, or code switching as most people call it.
Speaker 1: I got interested in the topic based on something that
Speaker 1: you said, Dr Alphie. I asked you, what were some
Speaker 1: of the things that you wanted to get off your chest,
Speaker 1: and part of what you said was I love myself
Speaker 1: and I demand that people show up and respect me
Speaker 1: exactly as I show up in the world, and don't
Speaker 1: ask me to change anything. And I was like, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: Now that's that's a conversation. That's a conversation to be
Speaker 1: able to present and be yourself in any space unapologetically.
Speaker 1: So if you haven't listened to the episode on self doubt,
Speaker 1: please check it out. But today joining me is Jared Hill,
Speaker 1: an award winning journalist, writer, and professor. Jared is the
Speaker 1: co host of the podcast Fanti from Maximum Fund. Jared
Speaker 1: is a returning guest, as he was on the episode
Speaker 1: two America's with Brittany pat Nick Cunningham. Hey, Jared, welcome back.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me back. I'm excited
Speaker 1: to be here. Oh, thank you alongside Jared, we have
Speaker 1: Travell Anderson, an award winning journalist editor for Toronto's Extra
Speaker 1: magazine and co host of the podcast What a Day
Speaker 1: by Cricket Media and Fanti, which they co host with Jared.
Speaker 1: Welcome travel, Hey, gam, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1: At last, but not least, we have back on positively gam.
Speaker 1: Dr Alfie Dr Alfie is a licensed psychologist, author and
Speaker 1: host of the video podcast Couched in Color. Hey Dr Alfie,
Speaker 1: welcome back, Hello utiful, Thank you for having me. So
Speaker 1: I want to start with you, Dr Alphie, because I
Speaker 1: want you to actually tell us what code switching is. Sure. So,
Speaker 1: code switching is something I think most often it impacts
Speaker 1: those of us we have marginalized identities, where depending on
Speaker 1: the situation that we're in, we change up how we speak,
Speaker 1: maybe how we stand or present ourselves in order to
Speaker 1: make ourselves. Most often, I hate to stay acceptable, but
Speaker 1: too I think for many of us is to allow
Speaker 1: a space for us to fit in and kind of
Speaker 1: assimilate in some ways with the situations that we're in.
Speaker 1: So it's not always bad, um, sometimes it's necessary, particularly
Speaker 1: if you have certain marginalized identities. I do think it's
Speaker 1: sort of a not a defense mechanism, but it's a protection,
Speaker 1: a way to protect yourself. So that's what code switching
Speaker 1: is for me, just changing who you are, how you speak,
Speaker 1: how you engage depending on the situation. And what about you,
Speaker 1: guys travel, did you have anything to add to that description?
Speaker 1: I completely agree. I feel like it is one of
Speaker 1: the situations that I often bring up when I'm describing
Speaker 1: code switching. Is like, for a lot of like black
Speaker 1: LGBTQ people, you know, we do what we do, you know,
Speaker 1: in the streets with our friends, but when we go
Speaker 1: to the barbershop, right, we butchered up for example, right,
Speaker 1: as a means of, you know, trying to be feel
Speaker 1: more safe or more welcome or more accepted in a
Speaker 1: particular space. Yeah, what about you, Jarret? Well, it's interesting
Speaker 1: because we I promise this is not promotion, but like
Speaker 1: Travilla and I are in the final week of writing
Speaker 1: our book, historically black phrases, and so we've been talking
Speaker 1: about code switching for months, right, and so in our
Speaker 1: interviews that we've been doing with folks, we've been talking
Speaker 1: a lot about code switching. And one of the things
Speaker 1: that's become interesting to me about code switching is the
Speaker 1: ways in which we find it looking different in different places,
Speaker 1: And I was saying to travel. We ended up doing
Speaker 1: a whole episode on code switching because it was interesting
Speaker 1: to me how when I was on the phone with
Speaker 1: my girls, right, like, we talked one kind of white
Speaker 1: when we're I'm a phone, hey, you know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 1: it's it's very animated and excited. But if I'm here
Speaker 1: at home by myself and I'm just like on FaceTime
Speaker 1: with you know, a different friend, it might be a
Speaker 1: lot more chill, and it might be kind of you
Speaker 1: know what it is, and blah blah blah. I'm on
Speaker 1: the phone with my dad, it might be something else.
Speaker 1: But if any I go downstairs and I go to
Speaker 1: the mailbox and I see miss Betty, it's like, hey, girl,
Speaker 1: how's it going. It's good to see you. You look good,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So I started to recognize
Speaker 1: the ways in which code switching isn't always just about
Speaker 1: entering a white space. Sometimes it's just about entering anything
Speaker 1: that's outside the front door, right, And sometimes it's about tone,
Speaker 1: and sometimes it's about voice. Sometimes it's about vocabulary. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it's about intonation, and so now I'm starting to think
Speaker 1: of it more as like code calibration, right, and like
Speaker 1: every interaction we have, like we kind of like calibrate
Speaker 1: ourselves to either feel safe or to to be safe
Speaker 1: or to signal safety to another person who is also black,
Speaker 1: Like we see each other, right, Like I see you
Speaker 1: and I want you to know that I'm here too.
Speaker 1: So it's been an interesting conversation to have. I'm glad
Speaker 1: you talked about that too, because I feel like that
Speaker 1: I feel like, Okay, my example would be how I
Speaker 1: present myself on Red table Talk, right, I feel like, um,
Speaker 1: how I present myself how I feel like I definitely
Speaker 1: feel like I'm doing a lot of codes with Red
Speaker 1: table Talk because I'm trying to be relatable to a
Speaker 1: wide range of people. And then in my person and
Speaker 1: even in my personal life, you know, in different spaces,
Speaker 1: I may have to change, um, maybe like you were saying, um,
Speaker 1: the language that I use or my tone. But it's
Speaker 1: not just when I'm in a white space, you know,
Speaker 1: it could be when I'm in a black space. I
Speaker 1: may need to toughen up a little bit more, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, I may cuss a little bit more, I
Speaker 1: may you know, how I carry myself, how I you
Speaker 1: know whatever, like yeah, you know, yeah, you know, it
Speaker 1: depends on what what space you're in. So, like you said,
Speaker 1: code switching isn't always bad, but it does lead me
Speaker 1: sometimes feeling like, um, a little inauthentic. Well can I
Speaker 1: can I jump in here? Yes? Please do so, agam.
Speaker 1: I think what's interesting about what we see you do
Speaker 1: on red Table Talk is red table Talk is a
Speaker 1: space that is really vulnerable, right. It's a place where
Speaker 1: we're asking you to accept ideas that or at least
Speaker 1: here ideas that may not be your own right, to
Speaker 1: open up a space, to be able to make a
Speaker 1: place for what this person is giving me that I'm
Speaker 1: I don't know if I really work with that, or
Speaker 1: I hadn't really I hadn't thought about it that way,
Speaker 1: or I need to say with that for a little bit, right.
Speaker 1: And So I think that in that place when we're
Speaker 1: talking about wanting to feel safe and wanting to figure
Speaker 1: out how we address a space, I think that on
Speaker 1: Red Table Talk, oftentimes we're asking you to like open
Speaker 1: yourself up in a way that viewers are often always
Speaker 1: able to do, right, and that viewers are often hoping
Speaker 1: that they can. And so I think that with that
Speaker 1: kind of a code switch, it's a it's a safety thing.
Speaker 1: It's like, Okay, let me let me see exactly what's
Speaker 1: happening here, let me see how much I can how
Speaker 1: much I can give. But I'm still with my daughter,
Speaker 1: with my granddaughter and at home, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's a different kind of space. But I think that
Speaker 1: that is probably why you feel that way, right. You
Speaker 1: feel like I'm trying to navigate this conversation and do
Speaker 1: it in front of people. Always remind people like in
Speaker 1: media training and stuff like, there's nothing normal about like
Speaker 1: getting in front of cameras and talking to the world. Um,
Speaker 1: so there's there's the realization of some safety there. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because in the back of your mind you're wanting to
Speaker 1: be accepted and not wanting to be attacked either. Okay, Jarrett,
Speaker 1: and travel is code switching something you find yourself doing
Speaker 1: in your everyday life. Mm hmm. Let's start with you travel.
Speaker 1: I feel like more and more, why I should say
Speaker 1: less and less, I'm code switching right mainly because I'm
Speaker 1: I'm no longer interested in being, you know, a partial
Speaker 1: person in this space and a different person in this space.
Speaker 1: I also say this recognizing that I have a whole
Speaker 1: lot of privilege, right, Like so much about my identities,
Speaker 1: which are marginalized, are also in many ways being exploited
Speaker 1: by various industries. Right, So I can make money off
Speaker 1: of being a professional queer or trans person in that
Speaker 1: particular way. Um, but I do recognize that for a
Speaker 1: lot of folks, they don't have that ability, right. And
Speaker 1: I remember when I used to work at the Los
Speaker 1: Angeles Times in particular a decade ago, I would go
Speaker 1: into that space a very different way because I felt
Speaker 1: like there was a particular way that I had to
Speaker 1: like present as a journalist and then as a black
Speaker 1: journalist in that white newsroom. Right because I want them
Speaker 1: to make I want them to know that I'm you know,
Speaker 1: worthy of being here. I want them to know that
Speaker 1: I'm just as professional as they are, that my HBCU
Speaker 1: education is just as good as their you know, Ivy
Speaker 1: League education or whatever the case may be. But what
Speaker 1: that does to us, right is it I think it
Speaker 1: forces us to just like contort ourselves in different ways
Speaker 1: to try to be palatable ultimately to white people's sensibilities
Speaker 1: about you know what is right or wrong or professional
Speaker 1: or unprofessional when like, you know, why can't around the
Speaker 1: way girls on the block also be professional? You know,
Speaker 1: That's the question that I'm always working through. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: That's what I feel mostly too, that that that trying
Speaker 1: to be palatable to the white community that is so
Speaker 1: challenging and feel so false and feels I mean, I
Speaker 1: actually kind of get piste off about it, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's irritating to me. It's irritating to
Speaker 1: me sometimes. Dr Alphie, what what what are your feelings
Speaker 1: about all of that? The same as yours, Which is
Speaker 1: why I said what I said on the last time
Speaker 1: I was on one of it, I said what I said,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying that So it's like because
Speaker 1: his tire is exhausting. I first thinned about it is exhausting.
Speaker 1: And I first learned about cose switching as an undergrad
Speaker 1: at Howard. I had his professor. Her name was Dr
Speaker 1: Calherd cw h r D. That's how I just remember her,
Speaker 1: and she talked to us about that. And I grew
Speaker 1: up in a predominant white environment in Virginia Beach, Virginia
Speaker 1: and that was my life. So being a high achieving
Speaker 1: black kid, we were always the only it was like
Speaker 1: six of us who were always the only black kids
Speaker 1: in the classes, right, And so I'm good at oh
Speaker 1: my god, like really, like are you serious? Like I can't.
Speaker 1: I can't, oh my god. And so, but that was
Speaker 1: a way too not that was the way to not
Speaker 1: have to deal with the drama that I had to deal,
Speaker 1: like the stupid questions like can I touch your hair?
Speaker 1: Can you now? I'm gen x, I'm goa date myself?
Speaker 1: Do you know all the words to rock the bells? Like?
Speaker 1: I didn't want to talk about that all the time.
Speaker 1: And so if I did the other stuff like oh
Speaker 1: my god, I love you too, I love starfing, yes,
Speaker 1: oh my god, then you know, people would leave me alone.
Speaker 1: And I think it started over time. It's exhausting, and
Speaker 1: so I would get home at night and I just
Speaker 1: felt like I would just take all of that off
Speaker 1: and put it to the side. So I'm like traville.
Speaker 1: I got to a certain point in my career where
Speaker 1: I was like, y'all catch the smoke because I ain't
Speaker 1: got time that I can't be bothered, right, And so
Speaker 1: I would get in staff meetings and people would say
Speaker 1: so I'd be like, Chad, please, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: And they would be like Mr. Pearls because they were
Speaker 1: like child, please, what is that exactly? Oh my, I'll
Speaker 1: feel like that's very ethnic. Oh wow, But you get tired,
Speaker 1: and so I agree with you, and I think for me,
Speaker 1: the real answer is when you get to a place
Speaker 1: like Travelle said, where you feel that you have enough
Speaker 1: privilege that you don't have to fit into anybody else's box.
Speaker 1: And so me having a nonprofit, I gotta feel in
Speaker 1: y'all box almost I do what I want to do.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's exhausting, That's what I'll say. What about you,
Speaker 1: jarret Um, I hate to get all deep on you,
Speaker 1: but I feel like lately, I feel like lately I've
Speaker 1: been thinking about this a lot. As I said, we're
Speaker 1: writing the book, but also I've just been kind of
Speaker 1: on my own like spiritual journey over the last couple
Speaker 1: of years. I don't know if y'all heard about this
Speaker 1: quarantine thing that happened, but it certainly slowed me down,
Speaker 1: um and made me think about things and I started
Speaker 1: to really realize. And I don't know that I've articulated
Speaker 1: this out loud. But I started to realize that my
Speaker 1: life has become my job, right, and my personality and
Speaker 1: what I think and what I believe and what I
Speaker 1: see has become a part of my work every day, right,
Speaker 1: my personality is what pays the bills. Um. And so
Speaker 1: I can't can tinue to like shrink myself down when
Speaker 1: I go into places if my job is to show up,
Speaker 1: right and so as I'm as I'm working as a
Speaker 1: professor right at USC, when I'm talking to my students,
Speaker 1: it's been incredibly important for me to always make sure
Speaker 1: that they know how what this journey looked like, right, um.
Speaker 1: And in our final class, they reflected back to me,
Speaker 1: like I one of the things that they got from
Speaker 1: our class that was about media reporting, journalism, uh for
Speaker 1: for pop culture and entertainment. One of the things that
Speaker 1: I always wanted to make sure that they got was
Speaker 1: that everybody's journey is their own, and like your story
Speaker 1: is your your path is your story, and that's like
Speaker 1: the power that you have. And so I find myself
Speaker 1: trying to coach switch less and less and less when
Speaker 1: I go into exceedingly white spaces or or you know,
Speaker 1: high power spaces, or when I'm in conversation with my therapist,
Speaker 1: or when I'm hanging out with my friends or whatever
Speaker 1: it is. I'm trying not to like dumbed down parts
Speaker 1: of myself, turned down parts of myself, but to show
Speaker 1: up as much as I can. And because I find
Speaker 1: that when I show up as myself that is when
Speaker 1: I have the most power. Wow, that that is really
Speaker 1: interesting and it's really inspiring to hear, because I'm not
Speaker 1: sure that I feel that way, but I have my
Speaker 1: own I have my own issues with self doubt and
Speaker 1: not the most confident person. So it's actually really good
Speaker 1: to hear you say that. Because darr alphie what triggers
Speaker 1: in our brain to to code switch safety? I really
Speaker 1: think it's about safety, right. So, when going back to
Speaker 1: where everyone has said, I really loved that Jared specifically
Speaker 1: has talked about code which is not just what happens
Speaker 1: when black we as black people are in white spaces.
Speaker 1: We coach, which when we talk to our grandparents, think
Speaker 1: about that. I happen to be married to a person
Speaker 1: whose father is a preacher. Now I know how I
Speaker 1: like to dress, especially like twenty years ago, I ain't
Speaker 1: never had no clothes one right, but I wouldn't do that,
Speaker 1: I please, and if I can still get away with it,
Speaker 1: and then sometimes I do. But it was when I
Speaker 1: would go to their house right the coast, which was
Speaker 1: I wouldn't wear the stuff that I would wear every
Speaker 1: day because I felt like it wouldn't be respectful for
Speaker 1: their values. And more so, I really do think what
Speaker 1: triggers in our brain a couple of things. One is safety,
Speaker 1: but two is you're remembering times when you've been chastised
Speaker 1: with little or something negative has happened in response to
Speaker 1: you showing up in a certain way. Think about little kids,
Speaker 1: right the first time the little kid. Think about people
Speaker 1: we knew growing up with my family from the Deep South,
Speaker 1: I'm not what my family is. The first time a
Speaker 1: kid come out their mouth the wrong way to the parents,
Speaker 1: some kid, you get popped in the mouth, so the
Speaker 1: next time you're not gonna open your mouth and say
Speaker 1: anything sideways or I can remember with you know, being
Speaker 1: with friends and parents would be like, don't look at
Speaker 1: me in that tone of voice, fix your face. Do
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying? And so I think it's
Speaker 1: those are just examples from within our community. But I
Speaker 1: think when you're in other situations, just like Travel was saying,
Speaker 1: think about what it means to be a visibly open
Speaker 1: out person of the lgbt Q community and go into
Speaker 1: spaces where you're not sure where people are right how
Speaker 1: they feel. Your literal safety depends on you scoping that
Speaker 1: out before you reveal who you are, because that literally
Speaker 1: count me in life or death. So I think that's
Speaker 1: what it is. You know, past past behavior is the
Speaker 1: best predicted future behavior. So if people are not treating
Speaker 1: you right, then I think the next time you think
Speaker 1: about go ahead, Jared, I would say, gam as as
Speaker 1: I think about you specifically. Um, I I found earlier
Speaker 1: today I'd forgotten this, but on my wall up here,
Speaker 1: I just I just read design my Office. So on
Speaker 1: my wall up here, this photo is of you and
Speaker 1: I and Jada when we met when you guys launched
Speaker 1: Red Table Talk, and it was I didn't interview with
Speaker 1: you all for essence because you guys were doing the
Speaker 1: big launch event and we all got to sit down
Speaker 1: with y'all for like five or in minutes, and uh
Speaker 1: it was special to me because I felt like I
Speaker 1: know Jada Pinkett Smith and like I just saw this show,
Speaker 1: and I'm I'm meeting this new woman named Adrian who's
Speaker 1: like brand new to me, and like I didn't know
Speaker 1: her story before, right, And I was immediately calling you
Speaker 1: gam and like all of this stuff, and I felt
Speaker 1: like there was a connection. But then I sat down
Speaker 1: with you all, and it was so surprising to me
Speaker 1: because y'all felt so like like family immediately, right. You
Speaker 1: were just open and um kind and welcoming. And I
Speaker 1: could show you the photo up close, but like it
Speaker 1: is like us, like in a good cackle, right, and
Speaker 1: it felt so welcome. Right. But I think that what
Speaker 1: we've seen from you and Red Table Talk in general,
Speaker 1: is like how much you're willing to open up yourselves, right,
Speaker 1: And like I think that there are moments when you
Speaker 1: are probably trying to code switch to not feel whatever
Speaker 1: that negative thing is that you're telling yourself. But like
Speaker 1: all of those things are the things that we love
Speaker 1: about you, right, Like you've you've talked about one of
Speaker 1: the things in the interview that we did. You talked
Speaker 1: about how you had been married multiple times and how
Speaker 1: that was kind of challenging for you, right, and the
Speaker 1: ways that that showed up in your next marriage. But
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, but my daddy's been married three times,
Speaker 1: and my parents, my mom and dad have been married,
Speaker 1: my mom and said dad have been married twice. And
Speaker 1: I've been in and out of a lot of relationships
Speaker 1: that never showed up to a marriage, right, And so
Speaker 1: like to hear your story, I'm like, well, gam is
Speaker 1: doing the damn thing, so like let's keep it going, right,
Speaker 1: And like it's a thing that makes you feel weaker, insecure,
Speaker 1: or something that you want to run away from, but
Speaker 1: it's something that I want to lean into and be like,
Speaker 1: you know what, she kept going and kept trying, and
Speaker 1: like I want to do that too. And as I'm
Speaker 1: a single person that's thirty seven years old, I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know what, Gam Gamm is doing it, So Damna,
Speaker 1: why don't I keep trying? Like and and like that
Speaker 1: is something that I want to lean into because I
Speaker 1: see how you do it. And so as you are
Speaker 1: being honest and real and genuine about who you are
Speaker 1: and what you want and what you're doing and what
Speaker 1: you believe and how you feel, like it encourages saw.
Speaker 1: And then I go to my show, right and we
Speaker 1: get letters all the time from people who are saying like, oh,
Speaker 1: I send my your show to my students, or I
Speaker 1: send my your show to UM to be a part
Speaker 1: of my dissertation, or I play it for my clients
Speaker 1: or whatever, and so all of that has this really
Speaker 1: beautiful ripple effect when we show up as who we are.
Speaker 1: What do you think if there are any negative effects
Speaker 1: that code switching can have? Though? Yes, what do you think?
Speaker 1: Dr Alfrey? I think that's sometimes we struggle with who
Speaker 1: am I? If I'm a different person in all these
Speaker 1: different spaces? Who's me? Right? And I think there's also
Speaker 1: a part of it where it's am I valuing not
Speaker 1: just who am I? But am I valuing all of
Speaker 1: who I am? If I'm showing up as a different
Speaker 1: version of me in all these spaces? And I think
Speaker 1: for me personally, one of the things that I have
Speaker 1: struggled with in the past is who am I not
Speaker 1: representing effectively? If I show up and I'm something other
Speaker 1: than you know, proud African American woman, Do you know
Speaker 1: what I mean? In these spaces? Are proud gen X
Speaker 1: black woman? Yeah? For me, sometimes it just feels like
Speaker 1: I'm being phony, Yes, you know, yes, absolutely absolutely it
Speaker 1: feels like that. So I think those are the some
Speaker 1: conversations that we have internally when we coach with and
Speaker 1: think about. And I'm telling like, I was doing my
Speaker 1: little valley girl thing before, but I can't remember how
Speaker 1: difficult it was to I would show up in spaces
Speaker 1: and think that's what I was supposed to do, and
Speaker 1: now I get beat down for it. So my freshman year,
Speaker 1: Howard Chad wan't no joke. They like they snashed me hard.
Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm saying, Like, girl, this ay? No?
Speaker 1: Like they would say the name of the white radio station.
Speaker 1: We don't listen to YouTube up and here you better
Speaker 1: get your mind right, you know. And so that was
Speaker 1: a struggle. So it's sort of there's a piece of
Speaker 1: it where it was, okay, where can I be all
Speaker 1: of who I am all in one place at one time?
Speaker 1: And I think, to Jared's point, in Travell's point, over time,
Speaker 1: what I learned is I have to take ownership of that.
Speaker 1: But that was my journey, Like I have to be
Speaker 1: in control with that, and I still struggle with it.
Speaker 1: But for me, those are some of the struggles that
Speaker 1: I think people have when they code switch. I feel
Speaker 1: like for black people, I just feel like we're doing
Speaker 1: it all the time. We're doing it all the time.
Speaker 1: It's like it's always been us trying to assimilate into
Speaker 1: this white world. But can you imagine if a white
Speaker 1: person came into a black space and tried to like
Speaker 1: talk like how we do and our lingo and all
Speaker 1: of that, Like it would be insulting. We'd be like stop,
Speaker 1: we don't even have to imagine exactly, don't you do it? Hanks?
Speaker 1: The whole time, I was like chet Hanks had mercy
Speaker 1: first of all. First of all, like you know, and
Speaker 1: you know immediately when it's happening, right when the person
Speaker 1: comes in and they're speaking language that is not theirs, right,
Speaker 1: when they're when they're affecting a dialect that does not
Speaker 1: belong to them, right, or something that they have. Yeah,
Speaker 1: one of our linguists, one of the linguals that we've
Speaker 1: been interviewing for the book, has been talking about how
Speaker 1: there's a difference between seeing something and learning it right,
Speaker 1: and like you can see something but like you didn't
Speaker 1: learn that, you just saw it on TikTok right, like
Speaker 1: you know it and you feel it, you feel it
Speaker 1: is different and like I think when you say, like
Speaker 1: what are the negative sides of like of code switching. UM.
Speaker 1: A friend of mine would just shared this with me
Speaker 1: in the last week, and he was saying how he
Speaker 1: was talking with his pastor about his sexuality and how
Speaker 1: challenging it was for him, UM as a bisexual person
Speaker 1: to like be able to embrace his his his truth,
Speaker 1: but also to like share that with his family, And
Speaker 1: his pastor said to him, if you don't tell your family,
Speaker 1: if you don't come out, you're never gonna fully believe
Speaker 1: that they really love who you are, right. And I
Speaker 1: thought that that was so powerful, it like it rocked
Speaker 1: me because I thought to myself, like, if we are
Speaker 1: not fully honest about who we are and show up
Speaker 1: in these places without like having to play a role
Speaker 1: or coach switch or beat something else, like, it's really
Speaker 1: hard to to receive the positive feedback if we don't
Speaker 1: feel like we're being genuine. Because I feel like you're
Speaker 1: giving me feedback to like this character that I put
Speaker 1: on as opposed to who I am, UM, and I
Speaker 1: think that that's been something really important for me. I
Speaker 1: agree with you, Jared, and I think there's a fear
Speaker 1: that when I reveal all of who I am to
Speaker 1: you You're gonna reject it absolutely, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: And so I think that sometimes holds people back from
Speaker 1: because it's beautiful when people receive us. It's really as
Speaker 1: hard as hell when they don't, especially people we love
Speaker 1: for people we have affection for. So I think when
Speaker 1: we do that, we're so vulnerable. So, you know, I
Speaker 1: just I would just add that one tiny little travel
Speaker 1: I see you shaking your head. What do you want
Speaker 1: to say? I'm nodding throughout all of this. Well, first
Speaker 1: on the on the aspect of like, you know, white
Speaker 1: people who have their black sense, and it also gets
Speaker 1: me thinking about, you know, the black people who who
Speaker 1: don't come from a particular type of black experience, but
Speaker 1: also wanna you know, yo yo yo it up right,
Speaker 1: And it makes me think to what you said earlier,
Speaker 1: gam about that authenticity. And I think what it is
Speaker 1: is that like those of us who come from certain
Speaker 1: types of communities, right where we talk a particular type
Speaker 1: of way, you can hear it and you can feel
Speaker 1: the authenticity, right. You can feel when someone has lived,
Speaker 1: you know, a yo yo yo type of experience, right,
Speaker 1: and you can feel when somebody just learned it like
Speaker 1: Jared said on Ticktop, because we know, we all know
Speaker 1: of those white folks right that did grow up you know,
Speaker 1: in the hood, right, who have that little particular swagger
Speaker 1: that we find acceptable, right and that we that we
Speaker 1: you know, put our hands around. We know those folks,
Speaker 1: and we provide space for those folks. It's the folks
Speaker 1: who don't know the culture, who don't know the community,
Speaker 1: the struggle, the experience, who were all side eyeing in
Speaker 1: a particular way. And it goes back to this this
Speaker 1: point about authenticity. It's about the culture. It's about what
Speaker 1: you have lived and experience, not just what you know,
Speaker 1: have seen on TV. And you know, we've been kind
Speaker 1: of focusing really on the black and the white community,
Speaker 1: but there's all cultures in in here in the United States.
Speaker 1: So I'm wondering how it might feel for other cultures.
Speaker 1: I don't know, because I'm I'm not that you know.
Speaker 1: I think that when we think about code switching and
Speaker 1: like dumbing ourselves down as any person that's a part
Speaker 1: of a marginalized community, is code switching somewhere? Right? And
Speaker 1: I would dare say when we did our episode of
Speaker 1: code switching, um, we got emails from white folks that
Speaker 1: were like, oh, well, I coach which when I go
Speaker 1: from this place to that place? And I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's the same. And I was like,
Speaker 1: hold on, straight, white man, I don't know if that's
Speaker 1: what we're talking about, right, But but I do recognize
Speaker 1: that there is a bit of a way that we
Speaker 1: turned something on when we get home to our family,
Speaker 1: as opposed to something on when we're at work, versus
Speaker 1: something on when we're on the road and they cut
Speaker 1: us off and we have a couple of choice words
Speaker 1: about who your mama might be, right, so, and so
Speaker 1: we engage all of those things in different ways. And
Speaker 1: so I was like, Okay, white people, you might be
Speaker 1: coach witching, but it's not the same, right it is.
Speaker 1: It is similar, but it's not exactly the same. It's
Speaker 1: not necessarily for the same safety. That's right. And no,
Speaker 1: it sounds cliche. All of our lives would be if
Speaker 1: we just had the opportunity to be with people in
Speaker 1: the fullness and unapologetic nous to coin a phrase of
Speaker 1: who they are, Like, how beautiful would that be? To
Speaker 1: just enjoy people exactly as they are in the most
Speaker 1: authentic versions of themselves. I just feel like it would
Speaker 1: just be heavenly. Oh absolutely, But we've got such a
Speaker 1: long way to go to get to that, sadly sadly enough,
Speaker 1: but that's just the truth of the matter. But Jared
Speaker 1: and and Travel, you guys have mentioned this book that
Speaker 1: you're working on several times. So Travel, let's start with you.
Speaker 1: I want you to tell us what this book is about,
Speaker 1: because you guys, once it's out, you guys are gonna
Speaker 1: come back and we're gonna talk about it. But I'm
Speaker 1: very excited, So tell everybody what this book is all about. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the name of the book is historically Black Phrases.
Speaker 1: It's basically going to be this coffee table sized homage
Speaker 1: to the special way that that unique razzle dazzle that
Speaker 1: we as black folks put on the English language. And
Speaker 1: so we've come up with these phrases that we think
Speaker 1: are historically black, everything from I ain't want of your
Speaker 1: little free ins to do you have McDonald's money? Okay?
Speaker 1: And so we're putting we're putting definitions to these phrases.
Speaker 1: We're pulling pop culture moments about these phrases, and we're
Speaker 1: interviewing a variety of different folks about how black language
Speaker 1: has shown up in their own unique experiences, because ultimately,
Speaker 1: our goal is really to pay homage to how we
Speaker 1: as black folks speak, because it's it's unique, it's special,
Speaker 1: and it deserves kind of that type of treatment. Jared,
Speaker 1: did you want to add anything? Um, I, first of all,
Speaker 1: really glad to have Travel as a co writer and
Speaker 1: co publicist on this because they can sum it up
Speaker 1: very very well. Um. This started out as like a
Speaker 1: joke that I was doing on Facebook, like doing like
Speaker 1: posts about what it meant to, you know, to say
Speaker 1: trouble don't last always or you know what, I guess
Speaker 1: I can say fun boy, but like what a funk
Speaker 1: boy is, right, and and why we use that language
Speaker 1: and where it comes from and what he probably is
Speaker 1: acting like right, And so it started off as that,
Speaker 1: and then people were saying back to me like, um, well,
Speaker 1: when are you putting this in a book? And I
Speaker 1: was like, UM, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm I'm I'm working
Speaker 1: on that right now. And so over the course of
Speaker 1: six years, it has become uh, this book that is
Speaker 1: now going to be available next fall and uh is
Speaker 1: due in a couple of days, so you know, pray
Speaker 1: for us. But but we're excited about it, and I'm
Speaker 1: excited to get a copy. Put me first on the list.
Speaker 1: I think it's gonna be awesome. So is there anything
Speaker 1: else in this conversation about code switching? Is there? I
Speaker 1: want to give each of you an opportunity to like
Speaker 1: give your last comments on it before we wrap up. Um. Oh,
Speaker 1: the one thing I always tell myself and I want
Speaker 1: people to remember, sometimes showing up justice who you are
Speaker 1: is an act of resistance. That's it. Uh Now, I
Speaker 1: didn't think about it that way. Yeah, you being gam
Speaker 1: and think about it when Gam is at the table.
Speaker 1: I remember one episode you you said something like I
Speaker 1: don't remember what the topic was, but you're like, you know,
Speaker 1: my generation, we can talk about stuff like that. That's real.
Speaker 1: And you gave permission for a lot of other people
Speaker 1: who are of your generation to say, she write won't
Speaker 1: won't get down like that. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: And so, just like Travell and Jared talking about the book,
Speaker 1: the two things came to mind for me. Let's red
Speaker 1: table it all all the black folks. We know what
Speaker 1: that means. We're saying, let's red table it right. And um,
Speaker 1: you know just what they're doing. Or when you were
Speaker 1: talking about I think it was travel white folks who
Speaker 1: you know, if you grew up in that environment. The
Speaker 1: first thing that came to my head was Tina Marie, right.
Speaker 1: I was like Tina ree while having eternal invite to
Speaker 1: the cookout. And when you're black and you say invite
Speaker 1: to the cookout, everybody know what that means. So yeah,
Speaker 1: So the authenticity of it, I that's and so you
Speaker 1: just being you, gam Jared, just being Jared, Travel, just
Speaker 1: being Travel. There's so many times when we've been pushed
Speaker 1: and required and asked and cajoled into not being who
Speaker 1: we are. Sometimes just you, even if it's just for
Speaker 1: a moment, showing up in the fullness of who you are,
Speaker 1: That in and of itself is an active resistance because
Speaker 1: you're taking your control back. Wow. I needed to hear
Speaker 1: that Travel you next. I love that. I was going
Speaker 1: to say something very similar about the utility of bringing
Speaker 1: your full self into spaces where you feel like that
Speaker 1: full self is not welcome. Um, because what it does,
Speaker 1: and you know, I want to be clear, it's not
Speaker 1: always easy, you know. I think many of us who
Speaker 1: have these conversations about code switching, like still work through
Speaker 1: the anxiety that I know for me as a black
Speaker 1: Clear trans person when I'm going into a variety of
Speaker 1: spaces where I am the only black clear trans person,
Speaker 1: when I make the decision to show up with a
Speaker 1: lip on and my nails done and in some heels, like,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of anxiety that goes into presenting this
Speaker 1: image of confidence to the world. Um, Because to Dr
Speaker 1: Alfie's point, I know that me being in these spaces
Speaker 1: as I am will necessarily change the makeup of that space.
Speaker 1: And hopefully somebody else who's in that room who has
Speaker 1: been feeling like they had to put on a mask
Speaker 1: to be there, they will take their mask off, right,
Speaker 1: and they will allow someone else to come behind them
Speaker 1: who also can take their mask off. And I think
Speaker 1: that's how we shift a culture. That's how we get
Speaker 1: to a space where we can be our authentic selves
Speaker 1: at all times right and not have to make these
Speaker 1: these trade offs or these calibrations for safety or to
Speaker 1: keep our job or to you know, stay in good
Speaker 1: graces with various folks. I wanted to to say lastly
Speaker 1: that I think we touched on privilege. Um, really briefly,
Speaker 1: but I do think that one of the things that
Speaker 1: we are all fortunate as people whose um personalities and
Speaker 1: careers are really informing what we do right now and
Speaker 1: allowing us to show up um as our full selves
Speaker 1: with our personalities. I want to also acknowledge that everybody
Speaker 1: does not get to do that at work, right and
Speaker 1: recognizing that, um, the places that you don't have to
Speaker 1: code switch are probably the places where you have the
Speaker 1: most privileged and probably the places that you feel the
Speaker 1: most powerful and authentic, right, the places that you're able
Speaker 1: to just show up and like, you know, sit back
Speaker 1: in the sea, just be who you are, and where
Speaker 1: what you wore right, your hair looks, how your hair looks,
Speaker 1: your makeup is done or not, your voice sounds the
Speaker 1: way that it does or does not. You use that
Speaker 1: word as opposed to that word right, those are probably
Speaker 1: the places where you feel like you have the most power,
Speaker 1: the most the most ability to like be be your
Speaker 1: own self. And so UM, I want to acknowledge that
Speaker 1: everybody doesn't get to do that at work, But you
Speaker 1: might get to do that a little bit more at church,
Speaker 1: or you might get to do that a little bit
Speaker 1: more with your friends or you might get to do
Speaker 1: that a little bit more where you volunteer, or you
Speaker 1: might get to do that a little bit more over
Speaker 1: here over there, and and think about like how your
Speaker 1: privilege is showing up and how you get to do
Speaker 1: that and how you get to to to be who
Speaker 1: you are, uh, and embrace it in the places that
Speaker 1: you can, because, like I said, everybody doesn't get to
Speaker 1: do it everywhere. Yeah. Important, I guess we gotta wrap
Speaker 1: up because we could go on, could we not? Yes? Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1: Now we're gonna do the segment, wouldn't you like to know?
Speaker 1: And we're gonna start with you, Jarrett. Jarrett, what book
Speaker 1: are you currently reading? I'm reading Balance, Positioning Yourself to
Speaker 1: Do All Things Well by Tory Roberts, who also happens
Speaker 1: to be my pastor. And so I'm I'm currently in
Speaker 1: that book right now and and really enjoying the ways
Speaker 1: that it's kind of opening me up and making anything differently.
Speaker 1: And what about you, travel I just finished reading Shine Bright,
Speaker 1: a very personal history of Black women in pop written
Speaker 1: by a fabulous music journalist, Danielle Smith. It's part biography
Speaker 1: of black women in pop music, part memoir of Danielle's story.
Speaker 1: She was the first black um editor of Vibe magazine,
Speaker 1: first black woman editor of Billboard magazine. And so it's
Speaker 1: just really really good. And if you can listen to
Speaker 1: the audio book, do that because she reads herself and
Speaker 1: it's so wonderful. I know. I love audiobooks. What about
Speaker 1: You to Alfie, there's two at the same time. I'm
Speaker 1: audiobooking The Godfather and then I'm always reading this book call.
Speaker 1: It's a very tiny short book. Um, I want to
Speaker 1: see You Shining. There's a super producer. His name is
Speaker 1: Mark Batson. He and I co wrote it and it's
Speaker 1: just it's very uplifting and it was done during the
Speaker 1: pandemic to help people through difficult times. And it goes
Speaker 1: with the album that he made literally uplifting song. My
Speaker 1: favorite song is um, you are Elegant and it's all
Speaker 1: positive affirmations. And so I'm reading, always reading that one
Speaker 1: and listening to The Godfather. Oh that's that's awesome. Okay,
Speaker 1: moving on, what's one thing you want to get off
Speaker 1: your chest? Jarrett? The thing I'm really upset about this week,
Speaker 1: like that I really want to get off of my chest.
Speaker 1: And this might feel small and don't judge me, gam
Speaker 1: but I'm mad at like subscription services that don't let
Speaker 1: me cancel their subscription within the app. And I know
Speaker 1: that's very specific, but yes, I'm talking to you. You
Speaker 1: can believe this out if you need to Orange theory.
Speaker 1: But like, I just want to pause for a few months. Okay,
Speaker 1: I just need a couple of months to like do
Speaker 1: my own thing. But you want to charge me more money.
Speaker 1: You want me to sign the paperwork, you want me
Speaker 1: to come in, you want me to give blunt just
Speaker 1: to pause. It's irritating me and I'm I'm feeling a
Speaker 1: way about it, that's all. I don't blame you. I
Speaker 1: would be irritated as well. What about you? Dr Alphie Um?
Speaker 1: Oh god, I have to but I'll pick one. The
Speaker 1: one I want to pick is I want to get
Speaker 1: off my chest that we should hold space for all
Speaker 1: the black people who over the weekend still showed up,
Speaker 1: including us today, showed up and did what they had
Speaker 1: to do in the aftermath of the terrorist attack in Buffalo.
Speaker 1: We're mourning, it's vicarious trauma, but we're still showing up
Speaker 1: to work. And the fact that nobody they're not too
Speaker 1: many people who understand that they're still asking us for stuff.
Speaker 1: That's what I want to get off my chest. People
Speaker 1: need to chill for a man, just give us a minute.
Speaker 1: Oh well, I feel like this is going to be
Speaker 1: a very start left turn. Um from the serious nature
Speaker 1: of Dr Alfie's point. That's okay. That was such a
Speaker 1: good point though, Dr Alfiat because yeah, that people just
Speaker 1: don't get it. Either they don't get it or they
Speaker 1: don't care. Give me, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme. So
Speaker 1: don't don't worry travel, will you know? Yeah? Follow that,
Speaker 1: follow that. I just wanted to give the listener a
Speaker 1: little a little disclaimer that I'm taking a left and
Speaker 1: the thing that i want to get off my chest,
Speaker 1: which is something I'm always complaining about, is you know,
Speaker 1: I feel like I coined this term a few years ago.
Speaker 1: B F B. It stands for big footed b I
Speaker 1: T C h S. These are people such as myself
Speaker 1: who have big feet but can't, like struggle to find
Speaker 1: high heels in our size in store. Okay, And so
Speaker 1: I just I want to tell all of the shoemaking
Speaker 1: people out there that I need them to carry bigger
Speaker 1: sizes in the store. Okay, somebody else was just talking
Speaker 1: about this. I don't know who it was. When I
Speaker 1: was just talking to somebody and they were complaining about
Speaker 1: the same thing you are with the store. Don't even
Speaker 1: mess with the store. You gotta order them joints. You
Speaker 1: can't them jones. You can't do it. I'm telling you,
Speaker 1: I as a as a big footed boy, if I
Speaker 1: can keep the bee, I will say that, like trying
Speaker 1: to find a size fourteen shoe, it is depressing, it
Speaker 1: is upsetting. It is I'm gonna start calling it racist
Speaker 1: and discriminatory or whatever else I how to call it.
Speaker 1: For people to start making bigger damn shoes. Jet, you
Speaker 1: were size fourteen, A fourteen. I'm six ft three and
Speaker 1: aware of fourteen size shoe and finding it. It's not easy.
Speaker 1: I understand your play. I haven't looked for a heel,
Speaker 1: but you know, I mean, listen, once you get past
Speaker 1: forget it. It's crazy, all right. What's the motto that
Speaker 1: you live by? Travel um A model that I live by.
Speaker 1: I sign all of my emails the same way, and
Speaker 1: that slay on with an exclamation point. I just always
Speaker 1: want myself and everyone that I come in contact with
Speaker 1: to slay on, slay the days late, the nights late,
Speaker 1: whatever you gotta slay, but just lay on. And what
Speaker 1: about you, Jared, I lately have been saying to myself,
Speaker 1: bring all of yourself, but don't make it about you. Um.
Speaker 1: And that's something that I've been trying to do more.
Speaker 1: And I mean we've been talking about that in this conversation.
Speaker 1: Is like, I want to like bring more of myself
Speaker 1: to the spaces where I'm asked to come and provide
Speaker 1: thought or feedback or insight or experience or wisdom or whatever.
Speaker 1: I want to bring all of myself to those spaces,
Speaker 1: but I don't want to make it about me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like that. I like that. What about you? Dr Alfhie?
Speaker 1: This is easy. But I speak tear rble teeny bit
Speaker 1: teeny tie a little bit of French. And so I
Speaker 1: have this one phrase, I know phrases. One phrase I
Speaker 1: always say is just sweet puss Um. I am peace.
Speaker 1: I'm probably saying that wrong too, but I am peace.
Speaker 1: And I always remind myself because pieces pieces paramount for me.
Speaker 1: That's the most important thing in my life. I feel
Speaker 1: like is peace first. And we ended on a positive note.
Speaker 1: So I like that too, because the topic was heavy.
Speaker 1: Where can we find you all on social media? Starting
Speaker 1: with you, Jarret, You can find me everywhere at Jarrett's Hill,
Speaker 1: Jarrett two rs and two tease because my parents wanted
Speaker 1: to be a little bit different, and you can find
Speaker 1: our podcast. Look, I can't ever find my name on
Speaker 1: a key chain at at a theme park, and I've
Speaker 1: talked to my therapist about it for years. Um. But
Speaker 1: I also would encourage you to go check out our
Speaker 1: podcast Fantai, where we talk about the things that we
Speaker 1: are fans of but also have some anti feelings about.
Speaker 1: It's a portmanteau of those two words fan and anti.
Speaker 1: You can find us everywhere at fan Thai podcast Everywhere,
Speaker 1: Fanti Podcast on Twitter and Instagram. I am on Twitter
Speaker 1: at travel Anderson t R E v e l L
Speaker 1: Anderson and on Instagram at Ray Jean r A y
Speaker 1: z h O N and Dr Alfie. So my podcast
Speaker 1: is couched in color um all one word, and we're
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Facebook and YouTube, but you connect to
Speaker 1: that through my website, which is Dr Alfie d r
Speaker 1: A L f I E F in the middle is
Speaker 1: the f Is and Frank Um and at Dr Alfie
Speaker 1: like on every platform except Snapchat because I still ain't
Speaker 1: figured it out. Yea, I feel you on that for sure.
Speaker 1: Thank you Jared at Travel and Dr Alfie for stopping by.
Speaker 1: Positively GAM. I love speaking with you guys today. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much, and that's our show. You can follow
Speaker 1: me online at gammy. Narris also help us out by
Speaker 1: leaving a five star review on Apple Podcasts and by
Speaker 1: hitting the follow button on I Heart Radio. Stay grateful, y'all.
Speaker 1: Positively gam is produce used by Red Table Talk podcast
Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio. Executive producers are Adrian Banfield, Nars,
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