1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I'm Aukshatrati. This week innovation, the US 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: Climate Bill, and the Bill behind the Bill. My guest today. 3 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 1: Bill Gates hardly needs an introduction. As the co founder 4 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: of Microsoft, he has amassed one of the world's largest fortunes, 5 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: virtually all of which he has promised to give away, 6 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: mostly through the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. He's also 7 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: known for his forays into funding new climate technologies. In 8 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, he created Breakthrough Energy, an accelerator for green technologies. 9 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: It has a multibillion dollar venture capital arm that has 10 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: invested in nearly one hundred companies, and a nonprofit arm 11 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: that influences policy and conversations around climate solutions. In twenty 12 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: twenty one, he published a book called How to Avoid 13 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: a Climate Disaster, where he makes an impassioned case for 14 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: innovation and its essential role in changing our physical economy. 15 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: But he is also realistic about the time frame it's 16 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: going to take. So when people say to me, hey, 17 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: we love your climate staff because we can tell Putin 18 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: we don't need him, I say, yeah, ten years from now, 19 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: call him up and tell him you don't need him. 20 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: The amount of time needed to bring innovations to scale 21 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: is one reason why Bill is so keen to make 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 1: sure governments act on climate. Most recently, he was an 23 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 1: influential voice behind the landmark US climate bill called the 24 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: Inflation Reduction Act. I sat down with Bill in August 25 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: before President Joe Biden signed that legislation to talk about innovation, 26 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: the role of government, and the biggest challenges in a 27 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: world facing multiple crises. Your basic philosophy to tackle climate 28 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: change has been innovation. You've pledged to give away the 29 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: majority of your money in your lifetime, but climate change 30 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: is a time limited problem. We have to get to 31 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: zero as soon as possible. And you've also said that 32 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: we need to do everything we can to accelerate innovation. 33 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: What's stopping you from giving away all your money to 34 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: innovation right now? Well, innovation is not just a check 35 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: writing process. The cost is way greater than what anyone 36 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: could fund. Like when I chose to get involved in 37 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:33,839 Speaker 1: reinventing nuclear fission, I put about a billion dollars into that. 38 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: But my key value RATA was finding the basic idea 39 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: for a much safer, cheaper, low waste solution and bringing 40 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,679 Speaker 1: those brilliant people together on the software modeling skills and 41 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: having some realism about how tough it is to create 42 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: something that not only will pass the regulators standards, but 43 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: also be accepted by the broad public. I've been stunned. 44 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: The leading edge indicator of seriousness is did the energy 45 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: R and D budgets go up? And I went to 46 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: the twenty fifteen Climate Talks saying, we have not invented 47 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: an economic way of making aviation fuel or cement or steel, 48 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: and we're not even trying. And without those breakthroughs, the 49 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: brute force cost, say of using direct air capture, it 50 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: just won't ever happen. So without innovation, you will never 51 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: solve climate change. And the existing tools only apply to 52 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: areas like electricity generation, they don't apply to most of 53 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: the emissions. So you know, I'm getting governments involved, even 54 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: just this latest bill that I was personally involved in 55 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: a lot of what got written into it, and then 56 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: working with the key senators in the last month to 57 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: get it to pass. You know, that's far greater than 58 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: any individual fortune, and I'm orchestrating a lot of people. 59 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: Breakthrough energy ventures really entered the climate innovation space at 60 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: a time when there was almost nothing going on, and 61 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,559 Speaker 1: by having dep expertise, it's been able to not only 62 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 1: do it's funding, but also get other funders involved the 63 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: idea of replacing all the physical economy. You're going to 64 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: have to use markets, you're going to have to use 65 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: government R and D budgets, and you'll actually have to 66 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: find the right people to get behind. It's not just 67 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: purely a financial thing. So you just mentioned your involvement 68 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 1: in helping the Inflation Reduction Act. Now let's come back 69 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: to that a little later, but for now, I want 70 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: to discuss how that bill helps support climate tech innovation, 71 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: because you wrote an op ed in the New York 72 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: Times where you said this bill can turn American innovations 73 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: into American industries. How exactly does the build do it? Well. 74 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: A lot of the money in there is for things 75 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: like long duration storage, green hydrogen, better electricity transmission, director capture, 76 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: manufacturing processes that are zero carbon emission, including cement and steel. 77 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: So in the very early stages, a new way of 78 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: making say cement, will be more expensive, and unless you 79 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: get it on an all in warning curve, you don't 80 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: drive that cost down, which means that there's a gigantic 81 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: green premium. You don't drive it down. So to give 82 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: some context here, simply put, the green premium is the 83 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: difference in cost between doing something in a way that 84 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: produces greenhouse gases and doing the same thing without releasing 85 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: those emissions. Imagine that you're building a home. You're going 86 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: to need cement. Today, you can buy that cement for 87 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: about one hundred dollars a ton, but you pay nothing 88 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: for the carbon oxide that is released in the making 89 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: of that cement. If you were to capture the carbon dioxide, 90 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: it would cost you another hundred dollars per ton of 91 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: cement produced, which means if you were to pay for 92 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,799 Speaker 1: a zero carbon cement option, you'd be paying two hundred 93 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: dollars a ton, twice as much as you would for 94 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: regular cement, and that difference, the extra hundred dollars is 95 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: the green premium. Bill argues that innovation is key to 96 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: lowering that green premium and making it possible for low 97 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: carbon technologies to be adopted all over the world. The 98 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: magic comes where you've had enough time selling that volume, 99 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: starting with lower volumes and then going up to where 100 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: the green premium gets to zero, so that you can 101 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: say to middle income countries that are sixty five percent 102 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: of emissions. This new way of making cement does not 103 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: have a green premium, because that's the only way they 104 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: get to zero. The rich countries aren't going to subsidize 105 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: trillions of dollars, and the middle income countries are not 106 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: going to slow down providing basic shelter to their citizens 107 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: when they know that the rich countries are responsible for 108 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: most of the historical emissions. And so that's what I 109 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: call the collective action problem, which is only solvable with 110 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: innovating green premiums to zero. And there's no other metric 111 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: that really counts other than current total emissions and your 112 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: progress on reducing green premiums. Everything else is a kind 113 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: of a sideshow. So if he take the stages of innovation, 114 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: typically it's scientists funded by governments that invent something in 115 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: a lab. Then comes in risky capital like breakthrough energy ventures, 116 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: that funds that idea to become pilot scale. Then comes 117 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: less risky capitals, such as loans from banks that help 118 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: create a self sustaining, viable business. The first step, however, 119 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: is government funding. Now, during the nineteen sixties, the US 120 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: spent two percent of its gross domestic product on innovation 121 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: that's down to point five percent today. In twenty fifteen, 122 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: during the historic climate talks that led to the Paris Agreement, 123 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: you try to make the case for doubling the funding 124 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: on innovation, You've got nowhere near doubling. You've got some increase, 125 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: and now this bill will give you some more increase, 126 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: but nowhere near double. Why do you think you fail 127 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: to eat that out? Given the case you're making is 128 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: so strong. Well, we did get very good increases one 129 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 1: Obama was an office, so we had two good years 130 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: with significant increases. You're right, even with the Compete's Bill 131 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: getting us some additional money, we're nowhere near the doubling. 132 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: And it's interesting because the NIH another innovation budget that 133 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: I have to love, related to health that has grown. 134 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: So there's a broader political consensus about the medical research 135 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: budget in the US than there is about energy research. 136 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: I think it's a mistake that that can happen, and 137 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: it's shifted more of the burden of the invention into 138 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: the innovative startups. So some of these ideas are not 139 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: as far along at the basic R and D level 140 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: as you'd like, which makes these companies even riskier. But hey, 141 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: if it's that's the only way to do it. You know, 142 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: we're going to fund companies, multiple companies in every area 143 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: of emission, and I'm surprised how many we found that 144 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: at least so far are making great progress. So sticking 145 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: with the idea of green premiums, there are many ways 146 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: to bring the green premium down. One way is what 147 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: you are doing with Breakthrough Energies Catalyst program, where you 148 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: get companies to voluntarily buy green cement or green steel 149 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: at a high cost. The more green cement and green 150 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: steel are made, the cheaper they become. The approach that 151 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: you're taking relies on the willingness of the companies to 152 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: do the right thing. But the proven way to drive 153 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: the green premium has been what governments have done. They 154 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: just put mandates on the deployment of say solar or wind, 155 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: or they provide a tax credit to pay off that 156 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: green premium. That leads to way more solar panels being 157 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: made and the price falls way faster. So surely then 158 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: the solution to reduce the green premium is for governments 159 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: to step in with policy or subsidy or how far 160 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: do you think the voluntary market you're creating with catalysts 161 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: can really go well. Certainly, governments are the big numbers. 162 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: Take the tax credits for the proven technologies electric car, 163 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: solar and wind. You know about half of the tax 164 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: credits in the bill are to accelerate the proven technologies 165 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: where your subsidy per unit is lower because it's very 166 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: high volume. But that's very helpful. Catalysts will be say 167 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: two billion to six billion over time, and it will 168 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: give us a seat at the table to help to 169 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: the government tax credit and project money. But that alone 170 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: wouldn't do it. You absolutely either need a broad carbon 171 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: tax or specific tax credits to meet the deadline we 172 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: have of getting in all areas of emissions extremely low 173 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: green premiums. None of the inventions will be a zero 174 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: green premium when they first come out. And to be 175 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: specific on an economy wide carbon tax, you have said 176 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: that it has to be high enough, like one hundred 177 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: dollars or two hundred dollars a ton, because if it's 178 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: too low, it's not going to overcome the green premium 179 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: thresholds on the products that we need. Yeah, in the 180 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: long run, what you want is a carbon tax that 181 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: matches your direct air capture cost and you actually literally 182 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: collect the fee and then you spend it on the 183 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: direct air capture and just so via clear Direct air 184 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: capture here refers to a technology that can remove carbon 185 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: dioxide directly from the air. You know, for some of 186 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:06,479 Speaker 1: categories that will be the lowest avoidance dollar per ton strategy. Currently, 187 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: the retail price for director captures on the D five 188 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 1: hundred dollars through climb works. There are companies that show 189 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: us how to get it to two hundred, one fifty, 190 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: one hundred, and even some that look like it can 191 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: get us below one hundred. Setting that up or bound. 192 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: It's very, very important for the most difficult areas to redesign. 193 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: A fun question for you because obviously you watch this 194 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: space with a different lens, but I think we watch 195 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: it obsessively together. If there was a sector of the 196 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: technology space that I had to pick up and say 197 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: that I've been flabbergasted, a may is surprised by the 198 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: sheer number of ideas coming through it. For me, that 199 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: is carbon removal. Is it a different answer for you, 200 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: I'd say the various agricultural innovations are kind of stunning 201 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: to me. That the basic idea of how does nature 202 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:09,599 Speaker 1: make food for example, there's funding to improve photosynthesis itself 203 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: and engineered to be twice as effective. The idea that 204 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: that's available or plants don't have to leak as much 205 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: water and so the amount of water you need for 206 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: crops can be reduced. You know, all the things around 207 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: approaches of making meat, which would have a lot of benefits, 208 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,959 Speaker 1: including greenhouse gas reduction. I always thought agriculture would be 209 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: the toughest, but I see a lot of things there. 210 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: You know, when we opened up Breakthrough Energy, I didn't 211 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: know that we'd have worthy companies. We built up a 212 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: very very strong technical team, and I have to say 213 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: that team, the Breakthrough Energy Ventures team, has been phenomenal 214 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: at not only identifying companies, but actually starting companies where 215 00:13:55,240 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: there was no one pursuing a particular idea. So when 216 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: we talked eighteen months ago, your book had just come 217 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: out and Breakthrough Energy Engines had raised a second billion 218 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,839 Speaker 1: dollar fund. Back then it was invested in fifty companies. 219 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: Now it is invested in nearly one hundred companies. And 220 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: that second fund, I understand, is nearly exhausted. Are you 221 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: raising another billion dollars for babes next fund? Yeah? Next 222 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: year we'll need BV three for additional companies, and then 223 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: we may also raise a fund that doesn't come in 224 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: at the early stages but does later stage funding. And 225 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: so we have some investors who've shown a clear and 226 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: Christen that even as the sort of ebulance in investing 227 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: in tech and climate companies is down a bit, I 228 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: still think we'll be able to raise the money. It's 229 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: not quite as easy as it was, say six months ago, 230 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: but yeah, we're looking at a new round for the 231 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: startup and a pool under the Breakthrough Energy Management that 232 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: does later stage investing. Bill Gates is, without a doubt 233 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: a techno optimist, and it's not hard to see why 234 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: innovation has been the tool of his success. After the 235 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: break I asked Bill whether innovation is enough? And we 236 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: also talk about the broader revolution needed to help solve 237 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: the climate crisis. You're a techno optimist, but the scale 238 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: of the climate challenge is so much bigger than anything 239 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: humans have done. It requires the rebuilding of the physical 240 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: economy so that it produces no emissions. You once told 241 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: me when we spoke the last time, that if we 242 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: manage to do this, it would be a bigger achievement 243 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: than winning the Second World War. But is technology the 244 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: only innovation we need or do we also need a 245 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: social and political revolution alongside it. Well, I don't know 246 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: what those words mean. We need more than technology because 247 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: we have to have the political will. We're asking society 248 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: to stop using really stuff that other than climate things. 249 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: You know, that coal plant would last longer, and those jobs, 250 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: and that natural gas plant and that way of making cement. 251 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: We're asking society to walk away from those. Of course, 252 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: the more you walk away from saying natural gas, the 253 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: cheaper it'll be. It'll just be sitting there just as 254 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: cheap as can be, because you're trying to drive demand 255 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: to zero. Anyone who says that will tell people to 256 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: stop eating meat or stop wanting to have a nice house, 257 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: and we'll just basically change human desires. I think that 258 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: that's too difficult. I mean, you can make a case 259 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: for it, but I don't think it's realistic for that 260 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: to play a absolutely central role. I mean, after all 261 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 1: the rich countries completely disappeared, that's only less than a 262 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: third of emissions. You know, if we all completely just 263 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: weren't in that picture at all, And those two thirds 264 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: of emissions are pretty basic in terms of the calories 265 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: and shelter and transport and goods being used. So the 266 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 1: excesses of the rich country, even kurby those completely out 267 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: of existence, is not a solution to this problem. It 268 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: may feel calvinistically appropriate, but I'm looking at what the 269 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: world has to do to get to zero, not using 270 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 1: climate as a moral crusade. But there are people who 271 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: are getting louder about the idea of d growth. They 272 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: say it's a moral impertative for developing countries to grow 273 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,479 Speaker 1: so that they can meet their basic needs. And they 274 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: argue that the planet is finite, which means developed countries 275 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: have to rein in their excesses. Does capitalism as it 276 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: exists today allow for an outcome? I don't think it's 277 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: realistic to say that people are utterly going to change 278 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 1: their lifestyle because of concerns about climate. You can have 279 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: like a cultural revolution where you're trying to throw everything up. 280 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 1: You know, you can create a North Korean type situation 281 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 1: where the states in control other than immense central authority 282 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: to have people just obey. I think the collective action 283 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: problem is just completely not solvable. And when people say 284 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: the earth is finite, I don't actually know what they 285 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 1: mean we can grow enough food. The water's not disappearing, 286 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: the minerals are not disappearing. It's not a Malthusian situation. 287 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 1: In fact, other than the continent of Africa, we're actually 288 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:54,479 Speaker 1: in population decline. We reached so called peak baby in 289 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: the last decade. The only reason we have population growth 290 00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: is not that we have more babies. It's just that 291 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: life fans for longer. So there's not like some equation, 292 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: like some plan b it can't possibly work type thing. 293 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: That's not a problem. So there are four ways to 294 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: cut emissions through government policy. One, your tax emissions. You 295 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: can put a price on carbon or have a cap 296 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: and trade system to mandate emissions reduction. So you write 297 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: some regulations that will force companies to emit less. Three 298 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: reduce fossil fuel production where you just shut down oil 299 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: and gas facilities. For subsidize what you want, throwing money 300 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: at the problem, like tax credits and other subsidies that 301 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: make green things cheaper relative to dirty things. If we 302 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: look at the new US Climate bill, it's all carrots 303 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: now sticks, right, It seems like in the US it's 304 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 1: very hard to implement a stick and get the government 305 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: to actually regulate reduction in emissions. Do you think that 306 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: threatens our ability to get to zero by twenty fifty. No. Absolutely, 307 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: asking people in this generation to take their expectation of 308 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: improving standards of living and actually, because of the transitional costs, 309 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 1: reduce their standard of living. There just isn't that broad consensus. 310 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: For example, when Prance put on a diesel tax, then 311 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: you got the yellow vest phenomenon, and the diesel tax, 312 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: which was quite modest in the scheme of things in 313 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: terms of incentives to change, was absolutely repealed. Hey, we 314 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: lived in a political world and the voters in France 315 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: reacted to that increase. The US hasn't been able to 316 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: raise the gas tax even to fund highway construction, not 317 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: to mention climate related things. So if you're taking more 318 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: of the improvement in the economy and putting that all 319 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: into climate at a time when there's pandemic needs and 320 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: there's the health system costs are going up as people 321 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 1: are a gene and helping poor countries for their non 322 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: climate related problems. Funding the war in Ukraine the only 323 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: way you have to push the limit on getting people 324 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 1: to recognize climates important. And if you have one party 325 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: who's completely not part of that, then you better be 326 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: realistic about what you're going to get. So you know, 327 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 1: anybody who's broadly convincing Republican voters this is a high priority. 328 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: God bless them. But people are in the climate space 329 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: may not realize how many things are competing for the 330 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: modest amount of increased resources that society has, and that 331 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: not that many people are prepared to be worse off 332 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: because of climate requirements. And therefore, how do you square that. 333 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: I'll thank God that the innovation path makes the cost 334 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: of doing it better. And remember brute force nine million 335 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: or I brute force eliminate my climate things. Rich companies 336 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: can do brute force. Some of what they do now, 337 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: like tree planting, isn't real. But even if you get 338 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 1: to the real stuff, they could probably afford it. But 339 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: just having a few rich countries, a few rich companies 340 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: and a few rich individuals buy their way out so 341 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: they can say they're not part of the problem. That 342 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: has nothing to do with solving the problem. Solving the 343 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: problem is finding innovators, building these innovated companies so that 344 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: you can call up India and say, hey, you need 345 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: to make steal this new way cement this new way meat. 346 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: Actually they don't use as much meat, so bad example, 347 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: but do transport this way. And so the rich countries 348 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: dropping their emissions to zero is a nice thing, but 349 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: it's only you know, that's twenty five and you have 350 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: to have something that motivates middle income countries, including in 351 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: your Brazil, China, etc. To completely change these processes. Now, 352 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 1: what is happening here in Europe with the Ukraine War 353 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: and what's going to happen this winter is going to 354 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: be spectacularly bad for people because of high energy prices. 355 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: How do you think Europe should be dealing with this 356 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: while also holding onto its climate golds. Yeah, it's a 357 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 1: very scary situation where you know, natural gas is an 358 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: important input for heating houses, making electricitine industrial processes, you know, 359 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: the German chemical industry a key input is low cost 360 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: natural gas. And so overall that equation of okay, can 361 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: you use less of electricity or shift back to other 362 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: ways of getting electricity? Well, sadly, right now, the wind's 363 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: not going well. The French nuclear reactors are partly shut down. 364 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: The rainfall in Norway is bad. I mean, you know, 365 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: there's a there's a lot of things that are are 366 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: have gone wrong in terms of what that equation looks 367 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 1: like for Europe this summer, where of course the Ukraine 368 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 1: Wars is the super tough thing. The difference in the 369 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 1: amount of natural gas you need in a very cold 370 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: winter versus a mild winter will surprise people. It's almost 371 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: a factor of three difference. So you better be hoping 372 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: it's a fairly mild winter. If so, the tradeoffs are 373 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: pretty reasonable. In fact, for this winter. If it's a 374 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: very harsh winter, the tradeoffs are very very difficult, including 375 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: clamping industrial use in large part which you know people 376 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: aren't really ready for that. Sadly, most of the climate 377 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: things you know at beast or in the five to 378 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: ten year solution. So when people say to me, hey, 379 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: we love your climate stuff because we can tell Putin 380 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: we don't need him, I say, yeah, ten years from now, 381 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: call him up and tell him you don't need him. 382 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: But in the meantime, jobs in the German chemical industry 383 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: and people not freezing to death, people are still pretty 384 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 1: interested in it, and green technologies are even non green technologies. 385 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,199 Speaker 1: Build more allergy ships, more pipes. Should you reopen coal plants, 386 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: probably these pragmatics you know, are pretty important. Should that 387 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: Netherlands gas field be reopened? Maybe so. So it's a 388 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 1: very tough set of trade offs, very unexpected, you know. 389 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: I think in the long run it's good for climate. 390 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: In the short range, it's just you have to find 391 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: any solution, even if that means emissions are going to 392 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: go up. The sooner that war ends, the better. But 393 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 1: there's a lot of considerations that go into how to 394 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: bring it to an end. So let's come back to 395 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: the Inflation Reduction Act. I'm about to sign the Inflation 396 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: Reduction Act in the law, one of the most significant 397 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: laws in our history. Let me say from the start 398 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: with this law, the American people want and the special 399 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: interests lost. This landmark piece of climate legislation almost did 400 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: not happen. You were one of the people who was 401 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: involved in enabling it and helping it come through. You 402 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: were someone who spoke to the Democratic Senator Joe Mention, 403 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: who was a deciding vote. Now said the scene for me, 404 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: tell me the story of the call you made to 405 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: Joe Mention. Well, my dialogue with Joe has been going 406 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 1: on for quite a while. I had a meeting where 407 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: almost everyone on the Energy Committee came over and spent 408 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: a few hours with me over dinner discussing the role 409 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: of innovation in climate and how the US had both 410 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: this opportunity and was really the only country, given how 411 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: quickly this needs to get done, that has that innovation power. 412 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: Our universities, our national labs, are risk taking our ability 413 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 1: to attract the brightest people from all over the world 414 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 1: to come together. We've seen an industry after industry how 415 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 1: that matters, and those skills matter a lot for this 416 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,400 Speaker 1: climate innovation, and so the idea that some sort of 417 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: tax credits and project financing would have to be part 418 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 1: of the mix edswell was more r and d That 419 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: dialogue had been going on for a long time. When 420 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: Joe Biden came to power, he had an agenda that 421 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: promised on many things, including climate. The trouble is that 422 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: the two parties in America are extremely divided and rarely 423 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: vote for each other's legislation. That meant to fulfill any 424 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: part of Biden's agenda, every Democratic senator had to be 425 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 1: on board. What ended up happening was a lot of 426 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: horse training over many months, and ultimately many of the 427 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: big promises Biden made were delivered, but in three different bills. 428 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: The project financing came in the Infrastructure Bill, and some 429 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 1: of the R and D increase we want actually came 430 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: in another bill, the Ships or Competes Act. But the 431 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: tax credits were only going to happen in a reconciliation 432 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: format because you weren't, unfortunately, going to get Republican votes 433 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: for three hundred billion of tax credits related to climate 434 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: about half of which are related to new technologies, and 435 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,959 Speaker 1: so that meant you needed fifty out of fifty Senators, 436 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: and that means Biden needed mention. But because of the 437 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,719 Speaker 1: machinations of the US government, the Climate Bill wasn't just 438 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 1: a climate bill. It also included other types of spending 439 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 1: on healthcare and childcare and other priorities that the Democrats had. 440 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: That's what became a sticking point. You started with a 441 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: construct that had a lot of social programs that weren't 442 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 1: funded for the full ten years, even though the tax offset, 443 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: you know, was going over a ten year period, so 444 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: you know, it was almost like money was free, which 445 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: during the low interest part of the macroeconomics cycle, you 446 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: can get confused about that. So, you know, it was 447 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: a very ambitious thing that you would have had to 448 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: either cut those programs or run up deficits or raised 449 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: taxes in a way that neither party has shown an 450 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: appetite for anyway, So Joe had concerns. He wasn't the 451 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: only one, but as the bill got to be more 452 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: of a climate bill on the spending side, he was 453 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: overall supported. But there were a variety of things that 454 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: he had reasons he was concerned about, both for the 455 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: nation in some cases, for West Virginia in particular. So 456 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: you maintaining that dialogue, including them the last month where 457 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: people felt like, Okay, we tried, we're done. It failed, 458 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: and because I believed it was a unique opportunity trying 459 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: to bridge the communication gap and encourage people to make 460 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: one more effort because of the relationship we built up 461 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: over time, you know, we were able to talk even 462 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: at a time when he felt people weren't listening. I 463 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't have wanted to be in his position. The last 464 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: six months have been challenging, even you know, just getting 465 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: in his car and trying to live a normal life. 466 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: But anyway, here we are with a fantastic result, not 467 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: just this bill, although this bill is the biggest of 468 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: the three, but also with what's in the infrastructure and 469 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: competes acts. You mentioned he came for dinner with the 470 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: Energy Committee. Were there any other moments that you remember 471 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,239 Speaker 1: where maybe what you said really clicked and he got it. Now, 472 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: I've learned a lot from Senator Mansion as part of 473 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: the dialect, I went out and had a dinner and 474 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: DC with him. You know, his wife works on the 475 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: Appellations Commission, was there. We talked about the challenges there, 476 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: and you know, we talked about West Virginia and with 477 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: my work in nuclear fission, could that be a state 478 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: where some of those reactors going to create jobs that 479 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: some of the coal mining and coal plants will be 480 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: eliminating those jobs. You know. So it's a respectful dialogue. 481 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: He's a centrist. It's not easy to be a centrist 482 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: right now. But you know, he's not the only senator 483 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: I was talking too. And I have a team in 484 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: DC that's there to help with any staff group who's 485 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: focused on climate. So I think everybody's feeling good that 486 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: the collective effort. Although we came close to not getting 487 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: this key piece, it makes a huge difference, and I 488 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: wish we were going to get a lot of opportunities. 489 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: But this might have been a unique moment. Just in 490 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: the lastment, though, there was a moment where it all 491 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: fell about, as you said, and people who are like, Okay, 492 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: this chance has gone. What is it that you needed 493 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: to do to make the politics go in the right direction. Well, 494 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: I don't want to take credit for what went on. 495 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: I mean Schumer, he said to me, I'm one call it. 496 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: He'd shown infinite patience. And I said, you're right, and 497 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 1: all you need to do is show infinite plus one patience. 498 00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: It's tough, you know, getting fifty people lined up who 499 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: have different views, and you know this is a complex bill. 500 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: You know, I happened to be in some valley when 501 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: Senator Mansion was there. We had to talk about what 502 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: was missing, what needed to be done, and then after 503 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: that it was a lot of phone calls with various people, 504 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: and you know, I kept trying because you know, I 505 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: just didn't see another chance except in this one path. 506 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: Would it be fair to say that, surely, given the 507 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: amount of engagement you've had with Joe mentioned to convince 508 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: him to sign this bill, that this is the biggest 509 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: thing you've done on climate so far. Now, that would 510 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: be taking credit for a decision that Joe made, and 511 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: he's always been some part of the bill. He wasn't. 512 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: You know, the reason this has been under discussion is 513 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: not because you know, people say Joe likes Cole or 514 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: something like that. That's really not fair. Joe wanted to 515 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: see a climate bill a quick aside. While Bill says 516 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: Mention wanted a climate bill, it is also widely reported 517 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: that Mention and his family have a financial interest in 518 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,719 Speaker 1: coal in his home state, and he in terms of 519 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: what it did to inflation or how you funded it, 520 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: or was it realistic. You know, we need hydrocarbons in 521 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: the meantime, and we've seen, particularly with the Ukraine challenge, 522 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: that the transition spreads out over time, and Joe felt, 523 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: both in the area of inflation and what it's going 524 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: to take to have a smooth transition where the US 525 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: has cheap energy and stays energy sufficient, that you know, 526 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: he wanted to see a mix of things. I will 527 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: say that it's one of the happier moments of my 528 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: climate work. I have two things that excite me about 529 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: my climate work. One is when policy gets done well, 530 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: and this is by far the biggest moment like that 531 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: the other is where I sit and talk to these 532 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: innovative companies and I hear about this amazing new way 533 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: to make steel and cement and chemicals, and it's incredible. 534 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,760 Speaker 1: The green spending had dropped to near zero in twenty sixteen, 535 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: and now that's been reinvigorated and the innovation is going 536 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: way faster than I expected. That's why I'm optimistic that 537 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: we will solve this thing. That was a fascinating conversation. 538 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on the show bill now. It was great, 539 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: good discussion. Thanks so much. The US is the second 540 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: largest emitter in the world, and it has been a 541 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: lagguard on climate action. Now that it has passed its 542 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 1: biggest climate bill, it was fascinating to hear the inside 543 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: story of how it all happened. If you want more 544 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: on that, you can find a long read on Bloomberg 545 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: Green that I wrote with my colleague Gender Louis. That's 546 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: linked in the show notes. Thanks for listening to Zero. 547 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 1: If you like the show, please rate, review and subscribe, 548 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,359 Speaker 1: Tell a friend or tell you a senator. 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