WEBVTT - The Hot-Cold Empathy Gap 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.360 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:15.000 Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:18.279 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:20.840 today we're going to be taking a look at what 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:24.520 I think is a very interesting and what is undoubtedly 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:29.880 a very common failure of empathy. Now, empathy has come 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:32.160 up on the show before. Of course, it is the 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:35.760 the ability to share and comprehend another person's feelings, or 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:38.600 at least it's usually defined in terms of other people. 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:41.879 So we know about all kinds of ways that humans 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:46.520 miscommunicate and misunderstand one another, and we fail to accurately 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:49.600 model the internal states of other people in our lives. 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:51.240 And of course, you know, a lot of the work 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:54.720 of being a good friend, being a good romantic partner 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:57.960 or spouse, being a good coworker, any of these relationships 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:02.000 is really in trying to improve our ability to empathize 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:04.600 with people in an accurate way. You want to understand 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:07.720 how what you do makes other people feel, to sort 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:11.399 of get inside their head and adjust your behavior accordingly. 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:17.200 But one type of empathy shortcoming that apparently is quite real, 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:21.319 but which we fail to even notice existing is our 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:26.440 inability to accurately model and comprehend our own feelings when 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:29.760 we're in a different state. Now, Rob, this immediately made 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.640 me think of something that I know you've mentioned several 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.880 times before, that that quote from the warren Zevon song 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:39.600 where he says you're a whole different person when you're scared. Oh, yeah, yeah, 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:41.840 that's it's a that's a pretty solid track off the 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:45.199 two thousand two albums I Rides here with the lyrics 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:49.120 by Hunter S. Thompson Actually, and uh, I'd say it's 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:52.920 not the most lyrically complex of warren Zevon songs that 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:57.200 you know. It has that kind of Thompson anxiety and 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:01.280 doom uh groove going on, you know, not a concrete 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:05.760 ballad or anything, not one of Yvon's deeper songs. But 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:09.680 the title and chorus always struck with me because they 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:11.239 I think I've mentioned on the show before, because it 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:15.840 often ends up mashing up with the realities of human cognition, right, 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:17.800 and it certainly relates to the topic we're gonna be 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:21.200 talking about today, which is a framework that is known 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:25.200 as the hot cold empathy gap, and it has to 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:27.600 do not just with fear, but with a host of 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:35.959 other emotions and visceral motivating states anger. Joy discussed thirst, hunger, pain, 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:40.440 sexual arousal, fatigue, and so forth, anything that can be 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:44.720 strongly motivating on human thought and behavior. And I think 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.720 today's episode might help us see ways in which you're 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:50.320 not only a whole different person when you're scared, you're 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:53.320 also a whole different person when you're thirsty, and a 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:56.840 whole different person when you're sleep deprived. And not only 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:00.280 are you a whole different person, that other person is 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:03.959 someone who you do not really understand and whose behavior 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:07.160 you are not really able to predict when you're not 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:10.680 in that state. And finally, that the lack of empathy 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:14.000 between these two states is mutual. That's right. We're gonna 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:16.920 get into a whole sort of chorus of of of 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:21.080 selves situation in here where the we can kind of 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:24.000 think of ourselvesselves as like a a jury that is 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:27.720 arguing with itself, and none of these individuals can really 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.960 see eye to eye on the important topics. Now, um, 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:33.799 I think it's interesting to think about our relationship with 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:37.840 these different emotions, but particularly anger. Uh, you know, humans 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:41.400 have have obviously pondered states of anger for a long time. 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:44.839 As long as they've had self reflection, and as long 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:47.560 as we've been capable of noticing that there are indeed 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:51.440 changes in our mental state that impact behavior and also 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:55.000 can seem far into us, at least on reflection. Right, 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:59.520 Because this this gap can be both prospective and retrospective. 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:03.360 It's not only that you failed to understand exactly what 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:05.600 you're going to think and feel and how you're going 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:08.200 to act when you're angry. You can also look back 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:12.080 on yourself having been angry five hours ago and not 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.040 understand why you behaved the way you did. It can 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:17.880 seem like that was somebody else, right, And of course 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:22.039 there are various examples. You can turn to have supernatural 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:26.239 attempts to explain this. You know what sort of spirit 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.960 or demon beset me when I was in that state? 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.560 But then there are plenty of logical attempts to understand 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:35.960 what's going on as well. So I was looking at 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:39.560 a book by William V. Harris titled Restraining Rage, Dealing 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:42.680 with Anger and Antiquity, and I was also looking at 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:45.480 a write up of the book by Joy Connolly. I 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:48.239 was taken by by this because Connolly cites another book 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:51.679 that I've read from Elaine Scary is The Body and Pain, 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:54.480 which is a very deep contemplation of the nature of pain. 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.440 I've I've sited on the show before. Um kind of 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.640 a kind of a thick, deep read in many respects. 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:03.600 But but but there's some wonderful bits to it. Um. 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:05.800 A point that Scary makes in the book is that 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:09.080 human language is severely lacking in its ability to plunge 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:12.520 the subjective variety and depths of human pain, which, to refresh, 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:14.880 entails not only nerve signals, not only just sort of 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:17.000 basic information about what your body is doing or what's 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:19.919 being done to it, but also emotional states about those 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:22.919 nerve signals, etcetera. Yeah, because pain is not only a 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:25.960 physical feeling the same way something might feel warm or 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:29.719 might feel fuzzy, uh, it is also a motivation state. 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:35.640 Pain comes with a you must clause. So Connolly compares 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:39.000 pain to anger in this a subjective power that is 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:45.480 also transformative and protean. Meanwhile, Harris's main area of exploration 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:49.159 is that out of antiquity arises the popular idea that 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:53.000 anger is something that can and should be managed in control, 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:57.320 and by the Imperial Roman time, it's widely and popularly 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:00.720 held you can simply live an anger free life if 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:03.640 you know what you're doing and you're devoted enough to 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:05.760 to this way of life. Yeah, I'd be kind of 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:08.839 skeptical about how reasonable it is to expect that you 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:11.039 can do this totally for your whole life. But you 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:15.640 can probably, uh curtail anger impulses to some extent. And 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:17.800 I think this would be part of the philosophy of 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:20.279 like the Stoics, right, who might say, try to try 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:24.400 to observe your emotions as if they are something from happening, 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:28.440 you know, at a distance that does not affect you, right, right, 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:31.520 So it's I mean, it's it's not to say that 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:33.920 controlling your emotions is not important. I mean, we all 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.560 have to be able to regulate emotions. But this idea 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:39.839 that that anger just shouldn't be felt and you should 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:44.320 never feel it, that's to a large extent contrary to 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:47.360 modern understanding of anger, the idea that you know, anger 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:49.679 is also something that must be felt and even released 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.440 at times. It is not healthy to just bottle all 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:54.359 that anger down and say and put it away, to 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:58.719 just push it all into your depths. Um. But by 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:01.400 by the second century see Harris points out that there 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:04.560 there are Christian thinkers like St. Augustine and others that 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:06.680 acknowledge so, well, okay, there is such a thing as 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:11.520 righteous anger. You can be angry and and and it's okay, 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:16.160 it's there's there's like a light side to anger itself. 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:18.400 Of course, then again, if you look at a lot 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:21.160 of the things people actually do while believing they're acting 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:23.400 in quote righteous anger, a lot of it is pretty 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:27.520 terrible stuff. So like so it's like, uh, yeah, there's 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:29.880 a weird contradiction. I mean, anger is part of the 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:32.680 suite of things that gives human life its character, and 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:34.680 so it's kind of hard to imagine a rich and 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:38.080 full life that doesn't have an anger component to it. 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:41.120 And yet most of us would probably realize that we're 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:44.120 we do not make the best decisions when we're angry, 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:47.840 and that even even in states where we're maybe truly 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:51.920 righteously angry about something, a reaction to that situation might 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:54.640 be better determined in a state of calm than in 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:57.960 that state of anger. Right right, though, it is interesting 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:00.760 to to to think about, like all the different states 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:03.360 we go through trying to decide what states are the 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:06.520 best states in which to make various decisions. If you 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.920 if you follow that that line of of of questioning 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:12.560 too far, you you almost feel like you're venturing into 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:17.000 astrology territory, like like, Okay, I have to make this decision. 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.480 Is this a decision I should make um when I'm 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:23.040 full or when I'm hungry? Or should I make it 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.280 mid meal? You know? Is this a morning decision or 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:29.120 an afternoon decision? A sleepy or an awake decision? How 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:31.640 many cups of coffee should I have had before I 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.760 get into the deciding state for this decision? Well, that 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:37.680 highlights another problem, which is that, of course, decision theory 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:40.400 is goal dependent, right, So part of exactly what's going 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:43.800 on in in that those contradictions you just highlight is 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:46.720 that when we're in one state, we have different goals 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:48.560 than we do when we're in another state. I mean, 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:50.920 usually the way you can think about it is that 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.240 when you are calm and when you can think logically, 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:56.160 you're able to prioritize the things that are like your 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:58.640 long term goals or the things that mean the most 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:01.640 to you that you wish in your other states you 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:04.360 would prioritize. But then once you get into those states, 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:06.640 you don't anymore you might prioritize some kind of like 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:10.760 short term acquisition or relief that doesn't align with your 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:13.880 long term goals. Yeah, exactly. Now to go back to 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:17.120 ancient thought and the topic we're discussing here today, Uh, 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:20.640 there was still some some serious contemplation regardings, for instance, 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:24.880 how anger interacts with reason. Harris In in his book 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:30.720 shares the following quote from Aristotle's Eudemian ethics. Quote, Anger 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:34.960 thumos seems to listen to reason to some extent, but 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:38.520 to mishear it, as do hasty slaves who run out 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:41.600 before they hear the whole of what one says and 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:45.360 then muddle the order, or as dogs bark if there 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:48.480 is simply a knock on the door before looking to 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:51.280 see if it is a friend. So Anger, by reason 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.840 of the warmth and hastiness of its nature, though adheres, 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:59.200 does not hear and order and rushes to retaliate for 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:01.440 reason or a mat genation, informs us that we have 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:04.440 been insulted or slighted, and anger, reasoning as it were, 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:07.440 that anything like this must be fought against, heats up 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:10.839 of course straight away, whereas appetites do not obey reason 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:13.959 at all, and are therefore more disgraceful, for the person 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:17.040 who is unrestricted in respect of anger is in a 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:20.920 sense controlled by reason. Now, not everything in this quote 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:23.760 is is useful for our discussions today, and it's it's 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:25.440 clear even from this that there is a you know, 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:28.720 there's a there's a contemplation though, of how how thumos 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:32.880 affects logos, how anger alters the functionality of our reason 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:36.760 and certainly from a modern perspective, our abilities to simulate 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:40.840 the internal states of of of ourselves and others. This 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.959 is just part of human reason. Now, to come back 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:46.880 to the idea of hot and cold. Uh, it's notable 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:49.920 that this is exactly the way that Aristotle discussed anger 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:52.760 and fear. He believed that anger caused the blood to 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:56.240 radiate away from the heart, resulting in thoughts and actions 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.240 of anger. And fear was the flip side of this, 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:02.800 when the it contracts towards the heart, resulting in bodily 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:07.200 chills and various symptoms of fear that were reported things 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.679 like trembling, sweating, and even your nation. Uh. Though I 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:14.000 guess in the sense of the psychological principle, both of 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:16.480 these would be hot states. Both anger and fear are 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:20.160 states where you're being driven by your emotions. So the 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:23.840 for the purposes of our psychological discussion here today, being 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:26.880 in a state of fear is hot. But from Aristotle's 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:29.440 point of view, being in a state of fear would 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:34.000 be cold. Sure, okay, not to be confused with being 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:38.480 physically cold, which will also factor into the experiments will discuss. 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:41.280 So as my main source on this, I was looking 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:44.400 at a paper published in the year two thousand five 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:48.080 in the journal Health Psychology by the Carnegie Mellon Professor 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:52.680 of Psychology and Economics, George Loewenstein, and this paper was 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:57.600 called Hot Cold, Empathy, gaps and Medical decision Making. Alright, 0:11:57.640 --> 0:11:59.679 so the first thing we need to do in talking 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:03.360 about the paper is a couple of definitions. So first 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:07.040 of all, there is the concept of affect. What is affect, Well, 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:10.480 the the ap A psych Dictionary defines it as quote 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:14.280 any experience of feeling or emotion, rang ranging from suffering 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:17.560 to elation, from the simplest to the most complex sensations 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.600 of feeling, and from the most normal to the most 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:24.760 pathological emotional reactions. So as a mental shortcut, you can 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:29.280 think about psychological references to affect as feelings so these 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:35.760 would include common emotions such as happiness, sadness, anger, fear, discussed, surprise, 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:38.880 and so forth. However, for the purpose of this paper, 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:42.760 Loewenstein notes that he's using a more inclusive definition of affect, 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:46.720 which pulls in not only these classically recognized subjective emotions 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:50.839 I just mentioned, but also motivational drive states. And these 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:56.760 could include things like hunger, thirst, physical pain and discomfort, addiction, cravings, 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:00.400 and so forth. And so in the other literature, affect 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:03.280 might refer to just the emotions and not the drive states, 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:06.000 but for simplicity's sake, he's going to say affect in 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.320 this paper to refer to all of it. So what's 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:12.640 the difference between affective states of cold versus hot? Basically, 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:15.360 it is a cold state is whenever you are not 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:18.920 in some kind of affectively excited state. It's whenever you 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:23.200 are calm able to think reasonably and make reasonable plans 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:26.880 and so forth. Meanwhile, anytime you're feeling in an intense 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:30.480 emotion or drive for something, this is a hot state. 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:34.319 You are in an activated emotional or motivational place, and 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:37.840 that that stuff is affecting your behavior, because it certainly 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.200 does affect your behavior. You might think of affective states 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:44.480 as a kind of mode of the brain can occupy, 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:48.240 and then within that mode, nearly everything the brain does 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.120 works a little bit differently than it does in other 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:56.520 affective states. So Lowenstein writes, quote, affect influences virtually every 0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:06.360 aspect of human functioning perception, attention, inference, learning, memory, goal choice, physiology, reflexes, 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.920 self concept, and so on. Indeed, it has been argued 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:12.920 that the very function of affect is to orchestrate a 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:17.280 comprehensive response to critical situations that were faced repeatedly in 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:20.880 the evolutionary past. So I think it's very reasonable to 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.720 think about affect both in terms of these emotions like 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.560 sadness or anger, and in terms of drive states like 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.240 hunger or thirst, or or desire for sleep to be 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:34.440 not just a thing you feel in your brain, but 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.720 a sort of mode that takes over your entire brain 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:41.000 and affects sort of becomes your person when you are 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:44.320 in it. And of course we know by this definition 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:48.040 affect has has powerful effects on decision making, typically in 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:49.840 this form, right, you know, So when we are in 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.560 a cool and logical state, we can weigh costs and benefits. 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:57.000 We can make plans. We can organize our behavior to 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.520 serve whatever our long term goal is. So might think, 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:03.560 you know, I want to reduce my sugar consumption, so 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:06.000 I'm not going to eat six candy bars like I 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:09.400 did yesterday. Or I want to be well rested tomorrow. 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.520 I'll be at my best if I'm well arrested, so 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:14.480 I will go to bed early tonight. Or you know, 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.560 I want to maintain a good relationship with my friends, 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:19.560 so I will not blow up with rage at them 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:22.280 about some minor thing they do that annoys me. Or 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:24.240 you might think I want more money, so I'm going 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:26.520 to ask for a raise at work. But then of 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:29.680 course affect comes in and it can interfere with us 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.120 following through on the things we planned to do when 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:34.760 we were in a cool state. So of course, maybe 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:37.160 you planned not to eat the candy, but then you 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:39.880 get hungry and you think I want them, and just 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.120 the brain, it's like there's a different person guiding your brain. 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:45.640 You might plan to go to bed early, but then 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:48.480 that phone just kind of wants you to keep scrolling, 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.040 and suddenly it's three am. You felt like you couldn't 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:54.040 stop for some reason, uh, and so forth, Maybe you know, 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:56.160 you plan to ask your boss for a raise, but 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:58.960 then in that meeting you suddenly get kind of scared 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:01.520 for some reason that you and anticipate, and you just 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:04.640 never bring it up. And I'm sure every single person 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:07.880 listening has had experiences of this kind in one way 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:11.040 or another. It's it's a core contradiction of human life 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.280 that we want to behave in a way we know 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:17.560 we should behave to achieve certain goals in the long run, 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:20.760 but then at that moment of choice, something else seems 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.400 to take over and we behave in a completely different 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:26.400 way than we plan to now. The core observation of 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.200 the hot cold empathy gap is based on this contradiction, 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:32.720 but it actually takes the problem one step further. Not 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.840 only do we often fail to behave the way we 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:39.240 know we should in the moment, we are also really 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:43.320 bad at realizing in advance that this might happen or 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:48.800 understanding in retrospect why it happened. And Lowenstein writes, quote, 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:52.280 people have difficulty predicting what they will want and how 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.320 they will behave in affective states that are different from 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:58.280 their current state. So it's not just that we often 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:01.240 give into these states that oil our long term plans 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:04.720 and goals. It's that we fail to anticipate what we 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:07.120 will think, how we will feel, and what we will 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.680 do when we're actually in those states later. So this 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.639 is the empathy gap, and research shows that it tends 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.639 to go in both directions. So there are hot to 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:20.639 cold empathy gaps and there are cold to hot empathy gaps. 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:22.479 So the cold to hot empathy gap is more what 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:25.240 we were just talking about. Uh, you know, you're you're 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:27.719 in a calm state and you just don't You're not 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.439 able to predict how much you will be affected in 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:33.600 the future when you're in a hot state. And the 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:37.520 hot cold version is that people in hot states underestimate 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:41.240 the extent to which they're thinking and behavior are influenced 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:45.040 by transient affective states. So, uh, if you're making decisions 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:49.320 while you're angry, you might at some level recognize that 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:53.520 you're angry, but you're still probably going to severely underappreciate 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:57.040 how differently you're acting right now because of your hanger 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:00.359 than than you would be acting otherwise. And then he 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:03.119 offers up three other categories of hot cold empathy gaps, 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:08.879 so they can be prospective, retrospective, and interpersonal prospective empathy gaps, 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:11.560 or when we fail to predict our own future behavior 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:15.040 in an effective state different from our current One classic 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:17.960 example is the grocery shopping when you're hungry. I've done 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.639 it many times, you know, like you you just don't 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.880 realize how much you're not really going to want this 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.840 thing you're buying later because you're you're hungry while you're 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:30.879 buying it. Um Retrospective gaps are when you look back 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:34.000 and realize you just you don't understand how or why 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:36.600 you behaved as you did when you were in a 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:39.639 different affective state. Like you know, I, I know I 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.120 was angry, but like, why did I yell at Jeffrey 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:44.879 over nothing just because his shoes were squeaking on the floor. 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:47.600 I don't understand why I blew up like that. And 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:51.919 then finally, interpersonal gaps are the inability to understand and 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:55.199 predict the behavior of another person who's in a different 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:59.439 affective state than yourself. I would propose that a huge 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:02.480 person edge of the time you are analyzing the behavior 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.040 of another person and you think to yourself, why would 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:08.320 they do that? It doesn't make any sense. It's because 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:10.840 they were in some kind of affective state that you 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:14.520 are not currently sharing. Yeah, it's it's interesting to think. 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:17.720 I mean you see various little tidbits of wisdom that 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:21.480 often captured this. I remember we had a coworker us 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:24.680 to have one over their death that said, like, each 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:27.200 person is fighting a great battle. Remember that each person 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:29.920 is fighting a great battle or something that extent, which 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:34.520 is to you could interpret as being like, consider the 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:37.119 fact that anyone you're interacting with is in is in 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:40.600 in an effective state. You know that that they are 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:44.080 you know, angry or angry, etcetera. But but I wonder 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:47.480 does that sometimes sort of make you assume that anyone 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:49.680 you're interacting with is going to be in some sort 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:53.359 of an extreme state, And um, I don't know, it 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:56.320 can I feel like it can make one wary of 0:19:56.359 --> 0:20:01.440 other people, you know, like, assume everyone is angry. It's 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.240 it becomes a very difficult world. Well, I would interpret 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:07.680 that more to be like, uh uh, be open minded 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:11.080 about what is motivating other people and that they actually 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:15.200 maybe when their behavior seems unreasonable to you, it's worth 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:17.560 remembering that it's possible. I mean, it varies by the 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:20.800 situation obviously, but it's possible they are just reacting to 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:23.560 something that's going on in their lives, where you would 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:25.520 be reacting the same way if you were in the 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:29.560 same situation. But I mean, yeah, it's true that, yeah, 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:32.480 there are all these aphorisms that try to communicate this. 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:35.439 There's another paper by Loewenstein and a and a co 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:39.960 author named Leaf and boven Uh that's looking into how 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:44.320 how the hot cold empathy gap affects perceptions of thirst, 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:49.320 hunger and thirst. And there's a traditional Irish proverb sited 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:51.720 at the beginning of the paper that says, the full 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:55.000 person does not understand the needs of the hungry. And 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:57.560 I think that's good because that's true not just of 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:01.359 different people. Like when you're really satisfied, you you you 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:03.960 don't understand the needs of somebody who is not satisfied 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:06.639 in the same way. But you also don't even understand 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:08.960 what you would be like if you were in the 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:19.159 same situation of not being satisfied. Than in fact, we 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:21.800 could go ahead and look at that that thirst paper 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:25.160 as one example, so Lowenstein in this article. So it's 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:27.800 a number of different studies that have illustrated the hot 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:31.439 cold empathy gap, and this one is in a paper 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:36.040 called social projection of transient drive states published in the 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:40.000 Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin in two thousand three. This 0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:43.280 is by George Lowenstein and Leaf van Boven and this 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:46.000 was a study conducted at a gym. I thought this 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:49.000 was pretty funny. It goes like this, So the researchers 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:51.919 asked people arriving at the gym uh if they're planning 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:54.800 on a vigorous cardio workout, and if they are, if 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:57.840 they would be interested in taking part in a short survey. 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:02.080 The survey involved in eagining yourself in a scenario and 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:05.440 then answering questions about the scenario. So you would read 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:07.760 a prompt that that goes as follows, with a few 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:11.800 abridgements for length. It says, imagine that three vacation ers 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:15.480 in Colorado this past August embarked on a short six 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:18.480 mile hike. As the day wore on, they realized that 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:22.080 they were hopelessly lost. Worse, because they had packed lightly 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:24.240 for a short hike, they had not carried much in 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:26.879 the way of food or water. In the space below, 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:29.520