1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 4 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: today we're going to be taking a look at what 5 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: I think is a very interesting and what is undoubtedly 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: a very common failure of empathy. Now, empathy has come 7 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: up on the show before. Of course, it is the 8 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: the ability to share and comprehend another person's feelings, or 9 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: at least it's usually defined in terms of other people. 10 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: So we know about all kinds of ways that humans 11 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:46,520 Speaker 1: miscommunicate and misunderstand one another, and we fail to accurately 12 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: model the internal states of other people in our lives. 13 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: And of course, you know, a lot of the work 14 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: of being a good friend, being a good romantic partner 15 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: or spouse, being a good coworker, any of these relationships 16 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: is really in trying to improve our ability to empathize 17 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: with people in an accurate way. You want to understand 18 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: how what you do makes other people feel, to sort 19 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: of get inside their head and adjust your behavior accordingly. 20 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: But one type of empathy shortcoming that apparently is quite real, 21 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: but which we fail to even notice existing is our 22 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: inability to accurately model and comprehend our own feelings when 23 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: we're in a different state. Now, Rob, this immediately made 24 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: me think of something that I know you've mentioned several 25 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: times before, that that quote from the warren Zevon song 26 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: where he says you're a whole different person when you're scared. Oh, yeah, yeah, 27 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: that's it's a that's a pretty solid track off the 28 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,199 Speaker 1: two thousand two albums I Rides here with the lyrics 29 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: by Hunter S. Thompson Actually, and uh, I'd say it's 30 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: not the most lyrically complex of warren Zevon songs that 31 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: you know. It has that kind of Thompson anxiety and 32 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: doom uh groove going on, you know, not a concrete 33 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: ballad or anything, not one of Yvon's deeper songs. But 34 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: the title and chorus always struck with me because they 35 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 1: I think I've mentioned on the show before, because it 36 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: often ends up mashing up with the realities of human cognition, right, 37 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: and it certainly relates to the topic we're gonna be 38 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: talking about today, which is a framework that is known 39 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: as the hot cold empathy gap, and it has to 40 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: do not just with fear, but with a host of 41 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:35,959 Speaker 1: other emotions and visceral motivating states anger. Joy discussed thirst, hunger, pain, 42 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: sexual arousal, fatigue, and so forth, anything that can be 43 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: strongly motivating on human thought and behavior. And I think 44 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: today's episode might help us see ways in which you're 45 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: not only a whole different person when you're scared, you're 46 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: also a whole different person when you're thirsty, and a 47 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: whole different person when you're sleep deprived. And not only 48 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: are you a whole different person, that other person is 49 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,959 Speaker 1: someone who you do not really understand and whose behavior 50 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: you are not really able to predict when you're not 51 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: in that state. And finally, that the lack of empathy 52 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: between these two states is mutual. That's right. We're gonna 53 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: get into a whole sort of chorus of of of 54 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: selves situation in here where the we can kind of 55 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: think of ourselvesselves as like a a jury that is 56 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: arguing with itself, and none of these individuals can really 57 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: see eye to eye on the important topics. Now, um, 58 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting to think about our relationship with 59 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: these different emotions, but particularly anger. Uh, you know, humans 60 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: have have obviously pondered states of anger for a long time. 61 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,839 Speaker 1: As long as they've had self reflection, and as long 62 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: as we've been capable of noticing that there are indeed 63 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: changes in our mental state that impact behavior and also 64 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: can seem far into us, at least on reflection. Right, 65 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: Because this this gap can be both prospective and retrospective. 66 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: It's not only that you failed to understand exactly what 67 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: you're going to think and feel and how you're going 68 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: to act when you're angry. You can also look back 69 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: on yourself having been angry five hours ago and not 70 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: understand why you behaved the way you did. It can 71 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: seem like that was somebody else, right, And of course 72 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 1: there are various examples. You can turn to have supernatural 73 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,239 Speaker 1: attempts to explain this. You know what sort of spirit 74 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: or demon beset me when I was in that state? 75 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: But then there are plenty of logical attempts to understand 76 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: what's going on as well. So I was looking at 77 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: a book by William V. Harris titled Restraining Rage, Dealing 78 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: with Anger and Antiquity, and I was also looking at 79 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: a write up of the book by Joy Connolly. I 80 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,239 Speaker 1: was taken by by this because Connolly cites another book 81 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,679 Speaker 1: that I've read from Elaine Scary is The Body and Pain, 82 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: which is a very deep contemplation of the nature of pain. 83 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: I've I've sited on the show before. Um kind of 84 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: a kind of a thick, deep read in many respects. 85 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 1: But but but there's some wonderful bits to it. Um. 86 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: A point that Scary makes in the book is that 87 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: human language is severely lacking in its ability to plunge 88 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: the subjective variety and depths of human pain, which, to refresh, 89 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: entails not only nerve signals, not only just sort of 90 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: basic information about what your body is doing or what's 91 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 1: being done to it, but also emotional states about those 92 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: nerve signals, etcetera. Yeah, because pain is not only a 93 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: physical feeling the same way something might feel warm or 94 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: might feel fuzzy, uh, it is also a motivation state. 95 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: Pain comes with a you must clause. So Connolly compares 96 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: pain to anger in this a subjective power that is 97 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: also transformative and protean. Meanwhile, Harris's main area of exploration 98 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: is that out of antiquity arises the popular idea that 99 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: anger is something that can and should be managed in control, 100 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: and by the Imperial Roman time, it's widely and popularly 101 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: held you can simply live an anger free life if 102 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: you know what you're doing and you're devoted enough to 103 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: to this way of life. Yeah, I'd be kind of 104 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: skeptical about how reasonable it is to expect that you 105 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 1: can do this totally for your whole life. But you 106 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: can probably, uh curtail anger impulses to some extent. And 107 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: I think this would be part of the philosophy of 108 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 1: like the Stoics, right, who might say, try to try 109 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: to observe your emotions as if they are something from happening, 110 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: you know, at a distance that does not affect you, right, right, 111 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: So it's I mean, it's it's not to say that 112 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: controlling your emotions is not important. I mean, we all 113 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: have to be able to regulate emotions. But this idea 114 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: that that anger just shouldn't be felt and you should 115 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: never feel it, that's to a large extent contrary to 116 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: modern understanding of anger, the idea that you know, anger 117 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:49,679 Speaker 1: is also something that must be felt and even released 118 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: at times. It is not healthy to just bottle all 119 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 1: that anger down and say and put it away, to 120 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 1: just push it all into your depths. Um. But by 121 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: by the second century see Harris points out that there 122 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: there are Christian thinkers like St. Augustine and others that 123 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: acknowledge so, well, okay, there is such a thing as 124 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: righteous anger. You can be angry and and and it's okay, 125 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: it's there's there's like a light side to anger itself. 126 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: Of course, then again, if you look at a lot 127 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: of the things people actually do while believing they're acting 128 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: in quote righteous anger, a lot of it is pretty 129 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: terrible stuff. So like so it's like, uh, yeah, there's 130 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: a weird contradiction. I mean, anger is part of the 131 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: suite of things that gives human life its character, and 132 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: so it's kind of hard to imagine a rich and 133 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: full life that doesn't have an anger component to it. 134 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: And yet most of us would probably realize that we're 135 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: we do not make the best decisions when we're angry, 136 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: and that even even in states where we're maybe truly 137 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: righteously angry about something, a reaction to that situation might 138 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: be better determined in a state of calm than in 139 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: that state of anger. Right right, though, it is interesting 140 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: to to to think about, like all the different states 141 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: we go through trying to decide what states are the 142 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: best states in which to make various decisions. If you 143 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: if you follow that that line of of of questioning 144 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: too far, you you almost feel like you're venturing into 145 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: astrology territory, like like, Okay, I have to make this decision. 146 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: Is this a decision I should make um when I'm 147 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: full or when I'm hungry? Or should I make it 148 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: mid meal? You know? Is this a morning decision or 149 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: an afternoon decision? A sleepy or an awake decision? How 150 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: many cups of coffee should I have had before I 151 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: get into the deciding state for this decision? Well, that 152 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: highlights another problem, which is that, of course, decision theory 153 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: is goal dependent, right, So part of exactly what's going 154 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: on in in that those contradictions you just highlight is 155 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: that when we're in one state, we have different goals 156 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: than we do when we're in another state. I mean, 157 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: usually the way you can think about it is that 158 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: when you are calm and when you can think logically, 159 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: you're able to prioritize the things that are like your 160 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: long term goals or the things that mean the most 161 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: to you that you wish in your other states you 162 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: would prioritize. But then once you get into those states, 163 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: you don't anymore you might prioritize some kind of like 164 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: short term acquisition or relief that doesn't align with your 165 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: long term goals. Yeah, exactly. Now to go back to 166 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: ancient thought and the topic we're discussing here today, Uh, 167 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: there was still some some serious contemplation regardings, for instance, 168 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: how anger interacts with reason. Harris In in his book 169 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: shares the following quote from Aristotle's Eudemian ethics. Quote, Anger 170 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: thumos seems to listen to reason to some extent, but 171 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: to mishear it, as do hasty slaves who run out 172 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: before they hear the whole of what one says and 173 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: then muddle the order, or as dogs bark if there 174 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: is simply a knock on the door before looking to 175 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: see if it is a friend. So Anger, by reason 176 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: of the warmth and hastiness of its nature, though adheres, 177 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: does not hear and order and rushes to retaliate for 178 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: reason or a mat genation, informs us that we have 179 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: been insulted or slighted, and anger, reasoning as it were, 180 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: that anything like this must be fought against, heats up 181 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,839 Speaker 1: of course straight away, whereas appetites do not obey reason 182 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 1: at all, and are therefore more disgraceful, for the person 183 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: who is unrestricted in respect of anger is in a 184 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: sense controlled by reason. Now, not everything in this quote 185 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: is is useful for our discussions today, and it's it's 186 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: clear even from this that there is a you know, 187 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: there's a there's a contemplation though, of how how thumos 188 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: affects logos, how anger alters the functionality of our reason 189 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: and certainly from a modern perspective, our abilities to simulate 190 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 1: the internal states of of of ourselves and others. This 191 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 1: is just part of human reason. Now, to come back 192 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: to the idea of hot and cold. Uh, it's notable 193 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: that this is exactly the way that Aristotle discussed anger 194 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: and fear. He believed that anger caused the blood to 195 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: radiate away from the heart, resulting in thoughts and actions 196 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: of anger. And fear was the flip side of this, 197 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: when the it contracts towards the heart, resulting in bodily 198 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: chills and various symptoms of fear that were reported things 199 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 1: like trembling, sweating, and even your nation. Uh. Though I 200 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: guess in the sense of the psychological principle, both of 201 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: these would be hot states. Both anger and fear are 202 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: states where you're being driven by your emotions. So the 203 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: for the purposes of our psychological discussion here today, being 204 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: in a state of fear is hot. But from Aristotle's 205 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: point of view, being in a state of fear would 206 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: be cold. Sure, okay, not to be confused with being 207 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: physically cold, which will also factor into the experiments will discuss. 208 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: So as my main source on this, I was looking 209 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: at a paper published in the year two thousand five 210 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: in the journal Health Psychology by the Carnegie Mellon Professor 211 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: of Psychology and Economics, George Loewenstein, and this paper was 212 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: called Hot Cold, Empathy, gaps and Medical decision Making. Alright, 213 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: so the first thing we need to do in talking 214 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: about the paper is a couple of definitions. So first 215 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: of all, there is the concept of affect. What is affect, Well, 216 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: the the ap A psych Dictionary defines it as quote 217 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: any experience of feeling or emotion, rang ranging from suffering 218 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: to elation, from the simplest to the most complex sensations 219 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: of feeling, and from the most normal to the most 220 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: pathological emotional reactions. So as a mental shortcut, you can 221 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: think about psychological references to affect as feelings so these 222 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: would include common emotions such as happiness, sadness, anger, fear, discussed, surprise, 223 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: and so forth. However, for the purpose of this paper, 224 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: Loewenstein notes that he's using a more inclusive definition of affect, 225 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: which pulls in not only these classically recognized subjective emotions 226 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 1: I just mentioned, but also motivational drive states. And these 227 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: could include things like hunger, thirst, physical pain and discomfort, addiction, cravings, 228 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: and so forth. And so in the other literature, affect 229 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: might refer to just the emotions and not the drive states, 230 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: but for simplicity's sake, he's going to say affect in 231 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: this paper to refer to all of it. So what's 232 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: the difference between affective states of cold versus hot? Basically, 233 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: it is a cold state is whenever you are not 234 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: in some kind of affectively excited state. It's whenever you 235 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: are calm able to think reasonably and make reasonable plans 236 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: and so forth. Meanwhile, anytime you're feeling in an intense 237 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: emotion or drive for something, this is a hot state. 238 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 1: You are in an activated emotional or motivational place, and 239 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: that that stuff is affecting your behavior, because it certainly 240 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: does affect your behavior. You might think of affective states 241 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: as a kind of mode of the brain can occupy, 242 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: and then within that mode, nearly everything the brain does 243 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: works a little bit differently than it does in other 244 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: affective states. So Lowenstein writes, quote, affect influences virtually every 245 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: aspect of human functioning perception, attention, inference, learning, memory, goal choice, physiology, reflexes, 246 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: self concept, and so on. Indeed, it has been argued 247 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: that the very function of affect is to orchestrate a 248 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: comprehensive response to critical situations that were faced repeatedly in 249 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: the evolutionary past. So I think it's very reasonable to 250 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: think about affect both in terms of these emotions like 251 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: sadness or anger, and in terms of drive states like 252 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: hunger or thirst, or or desire for sleep to be 253 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: not just a thing you feel in your brain, but 254 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: a sort of mode that takes over your entire brain 255 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: and affects sort of becomes your person when you are 256 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: in it. And of course we know by this definition 257 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: affect has has powerful effects on decision making, typically in 258 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: this form, right, you know, So when we are in 259 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: a cool and logical state, we can weigh costs and benefits. 260 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: We can make plans. We can organize our behavior to 261 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: serve whatever our long term goal is. So might think, 262 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: you know, I want to reduce my sugar consumption, so 263 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: I'm not going to eat six candy bars like I 264 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: did yesterday. Or I want to be well rested tomorrow. 265 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: I'll be at my best if I'm well arrested, so 266 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: I will go to bed early tonight. Or you know, 267 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: I want to maintain a good relationship with my friends, 268 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: so I will not blow up with rage at them 269 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: about some minor thing they do that annoys me. Or 270 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: you might think I want more money, so I'm going 271 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: to ask for a raise at work. But then of 272 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: course affect comes in and it can interfere with us 273 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: following through on the things we planned to do when 274 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: we were in a cool state. So of course, maybe 275 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: you planned not to eat the candy, but then you 276 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: get hungry and you think I want them, and just 277 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: the brain, it's like there's a different person guiding your brain. 278 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: You might plan to go to bed early, but then 279 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: that phone just kind of wants you to keep scrolling, 280 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: and suddenly it's three am. You felt like you couldn't 281 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: stop for some reason, uh, and so forth, Maybe you know, 282 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: you plan to ask your boss for a raise, but 283 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: then in that meeting you suddenly get kind of scared 284 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: for some reason that you and anticipate, and you just 285 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: never bring it up. And I'm sure every single person 286 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: listening has had experiences of this kind in one way 287 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: or another. It's it's a core contradiction of human life 288 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: that we want to behave in a way we know 289 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: we should behave to achieve certain goals in the long run, 290 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: but then at that moment of choice, something else seems 291 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: to take over and we behave in a completely different 292 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: way than we plan to now. The core observation of 293 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: the hot cold empathy gap is based on this contradiction, 294 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: but it actually takes the problem one step further. Not 295 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: only do we often fail to behave the way we 296 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: know we should in the moment, we are also really 297 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: bad at realizing in advance that this might happen or 298 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: understanding in retrospect why it happened. And Lowenstein writes, quote, 299 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: people have difficulty predicting what they will want and how 300 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: they will behave in affective states that are different from 301 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: their current state. So it's not just that we often 302 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: give into these states that oil our long term plans 303 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: and goals. It's that we fail to anticipate what we 304 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 1: will think, how we will feel, and what we will 305 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: do when we're actually in those states later. So this 306 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 1: is the empathy gap, and research shows that it tends 307 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: to go in both directions. So there are hot to 308 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: cold empathy gaps and there are cold to hot empathy gaps. 309 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:22,479 Speaker 1: So the cold to hot empathy gap is more what 310 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: we were just talking about. Uh, you know, you're you're 311 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,719 Speaker 1: in a calm state and you just don't You're not 312 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 1: able to predict how much you will be affected in 313 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: the future when you're in a hot state. And the 314 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: hot cold version is that people in hot states underestimate 315 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: the extent to which they're thinking and behavior are influenced 316 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: by transient affective states. So, uh, if you're making decisions 317 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: while you're angry, you might at some level recognize that 318 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: you're angry, but you're still probably going to severely underappreciate 319 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: how differently you're acting right now because of your hanger 320 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: than than you would be acting otherwise. And then he 321 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: offers up three other categories of hot cold empathy gaps, 322 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: so they can be prospective, retrospective, and interpersonal prospective empathy gaps, 323 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: or when we fail to predict our own future behavior 324 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: in an effective state different from our current One classic 325 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: example is the grocery shopping when you're hungry. I've done 326 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: it many times, you know, like you you just don't 327 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 1: realize how much you're not really going to want this 328 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: thing you're buying later because you're you're hungry while you're 329 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 1: buying it. Um Retrospective gaps are when you look back 330 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: and realize you just you don't understand how or why 331 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: you behaved as you did when you were in a 332 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: different affective state. Like you know, I, I know I 333 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 1: was angry, but like, why did I yell at Jeffrey 334 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: over nothing just because his shoes were squeaking on the floor. 335 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: I don't understand why I blew up like that. And 336 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 1: then finally, interpersonal gaps are the inability to understand and 337 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,199 Speaker 1: predict the behavior of another person who's in a different 338 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 1: affective state than yourself. I would propose that a huge 339 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: person edge of the time you are analyzing the behavior 340 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: of another person and you think to yourself, why would 341 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: they do that? It doesn't make any sense. It's because 342 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: they were in some kind of affective state that you 343 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: are not currently sharing. Yeah, it's it's interesting to think. 344 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: I mean you see various little tidbits of wisdom that 345 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: often captured this. I remember we had a coworker us 346 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: to have one over their death that said, like, each 347 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: person is fighting a great battle. Remember that each person 348 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: is fighting a great battle or something that extent, which 349 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: is to you could interpret as being like, consider the 350 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: fact that anyone you're interacting with is in is in 351 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: in an effective state. You know that that they are 352 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: you know, angry or angry, etcetera. But but I wonder 353 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: does that sometimes sort of make you assume that anyone 354 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: you're interacting with is going to be in some sort 355 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: of an extreme state, And um, I don't know, it 356 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: can I feel like it can make one wary of 357 00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: other people, you know, like, assume everyone is angry. It's 358 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: it becomes a very difficult world. Well, I would interpret 359 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: that more to be like, uh uh, be open minded 360 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: about what is motivating other people and that they actually 361 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: maybe when their behavior seems unreasonable to you, it's worth 362 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: remembering that it's possible. I mean, it varies by the 363 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: situation obviously, but it's possible they are just reacting to 364 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: something that's going on in their lives, where you would 365 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: be reacting the same way if you were in the 366 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: same situation. But I mean, yeah, it's true that, yeah, 367 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: there are all these aphorisms that try to communicate this. 368 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 1: There's another paper by Loewenstein and a and a co 369 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: author named Leaf and boven Uh that's looking into how 370 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: how the hot cold empathy gap affects perceptions of thirst, 371 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: hunger and thirst. And there's a traditional Irish proverb sited 372 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: at the beginning of the paper that says, the full 373 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: person does not understand the needs of the hungry. And 374 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: I think that's good because that's true not just of 375 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: different people. Like when you're really satisfied, you you you 376 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: don't understand the needs of somebody who is not satisfied 377 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: in the same way. But you also don't even understand 378 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: what you would be like if you were in the 379 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: same situation of not being satisfied. Than in fact, we 380 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: could go ahead and look at that that thirst paper 381 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: as one example, so Lowenstein in this article. So it's 382 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: a number of different studies that have illustrated the hot 383 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 1: cold empathy gap, and this one is in a paper 384 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: called social projection of transient drive states published in the 385 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin in two thousand three. This 386 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: is by George Lowenstein and Leaf van Boven and this 387 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: was a study conducted at a gym. I thought this 388 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: was pretty funny. It goes like this, So the researchers 389 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 1: asked people arriving at the gym uh if they're planning 390 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: on a vigorous cardio workout, and if they are, if 391 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: they would be interested in taking part in a short survey. 392 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: The survey involved in eagining yourself in a scenario and 393 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: then answering questions about the scenario. So you would read 394 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: a prompt that that goes as follows, with a few 395 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: abridgements for length. It says, imagine that three vacation ers 396 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: in Colorado this past August embarked on a short six 397 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: mile hike. As the day wore on, they realized that 398 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: they were hopelessly lost. Worse, because they had packed lightly 399 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: for a short hike, they had not carried much in 400 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: the way of food or water. In the space below, 401 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: please take the perspective of one of the three hikers 402 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: and describe your situation, how you got into it, how 403 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: you feel now. Both physically and mentally and what you're 404 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 1: hoping will happen. And then after that prompt they were 405 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: asked specific questions such as, which do you think is 406 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: the most unpleasant for the lost hikers, hunger or thirst? 407 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: Which do you think the hikers regretted not packing more 408 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: water or food if you were in the hikers shoes, 409 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 1: which do you think you would regret not packing uh? 410 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: And then finally they were asked to rate, on a 411 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: scale of one to ten, their current level of hunger, thirst, 412 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: and how warm they were. Now here's the kicker. After 413 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 1: the people agreed to participate in the survey, they were 414 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: randomly divided into two groups. One group did the survey 415 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: immediately so just whatever you know, normal state they're in 416 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: when they're entering the gym before the workout begins, and 417 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: the other group did the survey immediately after they finished 418 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 1: their workout. Based on the hot cold empathy gap, the 419 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: authors predicted that the people who just finished a workout 420 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: would be much more likely to think that the hikers 421 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: would regret not bringing water and to mention thirst in 422 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: the open ended response, because they themselves would more likely 423 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: be hot and thirsty after their cardio routine and the 424 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: experiment did indeed find what the authors had predicted. The 425 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: differences were pretty strong, so like the difference in um 426 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: people who rated the thirst as being more unpleasant than hunger. 427 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,479 Speaker 1: For the hikers, that was fifty guests thirst would be 428 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: more important before exercise, using eight percent of the people 429 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: thought thirst would be more uh important after they had exercised, 430 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 1: And and similar trends broke through when they were asked 431 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: to imagine themselves in the in that scenario as well. 432 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: Thirst is just a much more salient concept when you 433 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: are actually thirsty, even though like you know rationally that 434 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,479 Speaker 1: in that situation you would be thirsty, that's not like 435 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: a surprise. And yet somehow the fact that you are 436 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: actually thirsty in this moment makes you realize it with 437 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: much greater intensity. Yeah, this is this. I love this 438 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 1: because this is one of those revelations that I think 439 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: too many people will not come. It doesn't seem like 440 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: that much of a revelation, you know, like it may 441 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: seem just like an outrageous overstatement of the obvious that yes, 442 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 1: while you are yourself thirsty, you can relate more to 443 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: thirsty individuals and situations in which one might be thirsty. 444 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: But uh, you know, here we see these various questionnaires 445 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,679 Speaker 1: prove this out, um, you know, and and ultimately like 446 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: show even more important is the conditions in which we 447 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: have the empathy, but then the conditions in which we 448 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: are then removed from that empathy. That's the part that's 449 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 1: really telling, right, I mean, I think it's not surprising 450 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: that a thirsty person would rate thirst as very important 451 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: in a hypothetical scenario. I think what's more surprising about 452 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: it is the level to which when you're not thirsty, 453 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: you don't predict how important thirst is when you are thirsty. 454 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: Right now. Of course, we all have moments there in 455 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: a life where we're at least momentarily forced to confront 456 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 1: that where we for instance, we we realize, oh, I 457 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: didn't bring enough water for this hike. I brought the 458 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 1: amount of water that that that that that fully satisfied me. 459 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 1: I thought was going to be appropriate, and that was incorrect, 460 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: right right, Which is a really good example of the 461 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: real world consequences of the hot cold empathy gap. You 462 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: don't pack enough water on the hike because even though 463 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: you know when it ants rationally that you will need water, 464 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: you you just underestimate how much you will need water. 465 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: The thirsty you has a greater appreciation for that water need. Yeah. Yeah, 466 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: there's one of those examples where like the it seems 467 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: like an outrageous amount sometimes you know, like that's a 468 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 1: lot of water. I don't need that much water, but 469 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: you do need that much. That's why they're bothering to 470 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: tell you, because they feel, you know, left your own devices, 471 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 1: you might only bring like one flimsy bottle, you know. 472 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: Lowenstein goes on to elaborate about this with an interesting 473 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: line of thoughts. So it starts with a general finding 474 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: that we are uh somewhat different than the hot cold 475 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: empathy gap, just that we're generally worse at predicting the 476 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: behavior of other people than we think we are. Sometimes 477 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 1: other people's thoughts and behaviors don't make sense to us. 478 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: We don't know why they do it. We're not able 479 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: to predict what they do. And the question is why 480 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 1: why do we often fail to model the thoughts and 481 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 1: behaviors of other people? A common way of answering this 482 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: question in the theoretical psychological realm is that we tend 483 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 1: to underestimate or overestimate the differences between ourselves and others 484 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 1: as people, sort of as in terms of fixed psychological traits, 485 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 1: and these are concepts known as false consensus assuming that 486 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 1: other people are like us and think like we do, 487 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: or false uniqueness, assuming that we are unique and other 488 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: people don't think like us or would do the opposite 489 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: of whatever we do. And these effects could both place 490 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 1: some role, But Lowenstein in this paper actually argues that 491 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 1: the largest source of error when we fail to predict 492 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 1: how other people will act is not misjudging the gap 493 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 1: between different people's fundamental tendencies and personalities, but in misjudging 494 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: the differences even within ourselves between affective states. So he writes, quote, 495 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: when people attempt to predict the behavior of another person 496 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 1: in a different situation than their own, they first attempt 497 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: to predict how they would behave in that situation, and 498 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: then adjust for perceived differences between themselves and the person 499 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: whose behavior they're attempting to predict. Because they mispredict their 500 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: own behavior as a result of hot cold empathy gaps, 501 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: they then mispredict the behavior of others. And I thought 502 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: it was interesting how much this sort of aligns with, 503 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: or at least connects to another psychology concept we've done 504 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: episodes on in the past, the the idea of fundamental 505 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: attribution error, which is the finding that when we observe 506 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: what other people do, we tend to overestimate the influence 507 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: of fixed traits like disposition and personality and underestimate the 508 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: influence of transient situational factors. So if you were to 509 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: see somebody else I don't know, uh, steal a bottle 510 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: of water or something, due to fundamental attribution error, you 511 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: might think, Oh, they stole that bottle of water because 512 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: they're a dirty, dishonest thief and they just steal. That's 513 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: what this person is like. But in fact maybe they 514 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: did it even though they wouldn't normally steal, but because 515 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: they're very thirsty, And in fact, you would do the 516 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: same thing in that situation, but you're not very thirsty now, 517 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: so it doesn't occur to you. The fundamental attribution raor 518 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: episode was the one where we started with that that 519 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: big thought experiment about alien you know, like the question 520 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: of do you let Kine onto the ship and wilily 521 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: refuses and so forth. That was fun, but thirst is 522 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: not the only effective state. Of course, Again, the hot 523 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: cold tympathy gap seems to apply to basically any emotional 524 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: or motivational drive state. Another one that is commonly researched 525 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: is pain. So there's a study that Lonstein talks about 526 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: here where he was also a co author. This one 527 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: is by Daniel Reid and Lowenstein on It's called Enduring 528 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: Pain for Money Decisions based on the Perception and Memory 529 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: of Pain in the Journal of Behavioral Decision Making. And 530 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: this was studying the decision making of people who are 531 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: asked to stick their hand in a bucket of ice 532 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: water for money. Uh. That might sound kind of weird, 533 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: but buckets of cold water are often used for psychological 534 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: studies on pain tolerance because they succeed in causing extreme 535 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: momentary discomfort with very little risk of permanent injury. And 536 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: so this experiment used monetary pricing to test pain tolerance. 537 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: You know, it would be looking at things like, hey, 538 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: would you dip your hand in this bucket of ice 539 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: water for thirty seconds for five dollars? Would you do 540 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: it for ten dollars and so forth? And an interesting 541 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: finding here was that people who had experienced the ice 542 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: bucket dip a week earlier demanded lower compensation to do 543 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: it again than people who had done the ice dip 544 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: just moments before. So even though they had both had 545 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: the same experience, people in a in the situation ironically 546 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: named cold state, who were you know, it had been 547 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: a while and they were calm, they were more willing 548 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: to take the pain again for less money. And people 549 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: in a quote hot state, the people who had just 550 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: had the experience were less willing and demanded more money 551 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: before they would repeat it. Uh. And from here Lowenstein 552 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: goes on to quote an interesting passage from um from 553 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: a book called Shadows on the Waste Land by stroud 554 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: N that was about crossing Antarctica, and it's talking about 555 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: a figure in that story who was suffering from I 556 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: believe severe frost bite, and the author is saying I 557 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: could do nothing but reassure him that I understood, though 558 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: I did not. Really, pain is a problem that cannot 559 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: be shared. Yeah, and this this is something that uh, 560 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: this is one of the core points that Elaine Scary 561 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: makes in the Body in Pain about you know, in particular, 562 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: that there's just the pain is ultimately so impossible at 563 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: times for us to relate from one person to another. 564 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,959 Speaker 1: And it also it is like basically the limits are 565 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: the imagination that it's Uh. This always makes me think 566 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: of a line from Corey McCarthy's All the Pretty Horses, 567 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: where he talks about um, you know, contemplating all the world, 568 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: the pain in the world, um, saying quote, he imagined 569 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: the pain of the world to be like some formless 570 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: parasitic being seeking out the warmth of human souls wherein 571 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: to incubate. And he thought he knew what made one 572 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: liable to its visitations. What he had not known was 573 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: that it was mindless, and so had no way to 574 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: know the limits of those souls. And what he feared 575 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: was that there might be no limits and scary into 576 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: their hands, says quote. The only state that is as 577 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: anomalous as pain is the imagination. Yeah. The example of 578 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 1: pain is so interesting because while of course other people 579 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: have always experienced types of pain that you haven't. Everybody 580 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: has experienced pain of some sort, and yet there's an 581 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: ineffability to the experience of pain that, even having experienced 582 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: it before, you sort of can't recreate in your mind 583 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: without being in pain in the moment, Like you can 584 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: acknowledge that there is something about pain that you just 585 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: don't get when you're not in pain. You can realize 586 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: that's true, and you still don't get it, Like realizing 587 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: that gap doesn't close the gap. Yeah. Absolutely, And this 588 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: actually comes back to there's another example in the Lowenstein 589 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: paper I wanted to mention briefly that was about drug 590 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: craving as another thing that's been studied in the hot 591 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: cold empathy gap research. So there's a study by Jordano 592 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: at All in two thousand four conducted with people who 593 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: were in treatment for heroin addiction. Of course, quitting highly 594 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: addictive drugs can cause a lot of pain, a lot 595 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: of discomfort, you know, it is it is compared to 596 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: various direct methods of pain infliction often. But so the 597 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: people who were undergoing this treatment trying to get off 598 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: of heroin, we're receiving a methodone like maintenance drug called 599 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: bupreno frin or b up. And the study is summarized 600 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: as follows in Lowenstein. So it's talking about the people 601 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,959 Speaker 1: in the treatment here and they quote, uh, chose between 602 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: getting an extra dose of b u P versus different 603 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: money amounts, So for example, ten dollars versus an extra dose, 604 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: twenty dollars versus an extra dose, and they got to 605 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: pick which one they would prefer. Continuing with the quote, 606 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,280 Speaker 1: they were told that they would receive their preferred item 607 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: from one of these pairs when they came in for 608 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: treatment five days later. The critical experimental manipulation involved whether 609 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: they made this choice when they were currently deprived, right 610 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: before receiving their current dose of BUP, or right after 611 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 1: when they could be expected to be satiated now. According 612 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: to the hot cold empathy gap, the authors predicted that 613 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: people who were currently experiencing drug craving would be better 614 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: at predicting the value of a future extra dose than 615 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,760 Speaker 1: people who were not currently experiencing craving, and the hypothesis 616 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: was in fact confirmed. The people in the hot state 617 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: of craving were better able to predict the motivating strength 618 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: of future drug cravings than the people in a cold 619 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 1: state who were doing okay at the moment uh, and 620 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: the difference in terms of dollar value was almost double. 621 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,760 Speaker 1: So cold state patients who had just been satiated predicted 622 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,800 Speaker 1: they would value a future dose at thirty five dollars. 623 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: Hot state patients predicted that they would valuate around sixty dollars. 624 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,280 Speaker 1: And drug addiction isn't in many ways. An almost perfect 625 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: illustration of the hot cold empathy gap because very often 626 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: a person who's dealing with addiction realizes they would be 627 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: better off if they were able to quit, and they 628 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 1: may repeatedly plan to do so until the affective state 629 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: of drug craving becomes overwhelmingly powerful, and the person who, 630 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: in a cold state planned to quit is unable to 631 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:41,359 Speaker 1: anticipate how powerfully motivating their later craving state will be, 632 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: even though they have personally experienced it many times before. 633 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: And this is one of the really surprising things about 634 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: the hot cold empathy gap that you might think once 635 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,800 Speaker 1: you have experienced the difference, once you have have known 636 00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: firsthand a particular hot cold dichotomy, now you will get 637 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: it and you'll be able to empathize with the hot 638 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: state once you're in a cold state again. But no, 639 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: this is not what the research finds. Mirror experience of 640 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: the gap does not seem to close the gap, and 641 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 1: this part is crucial to understand. We have all experienced 642 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 1: these gaps in various forms before, regarding a number of 643 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: different effective states. We know that we're different when we're 644 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: angry than when we're not angry. We know we're different 645 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 1: when we're hungry than not hungry, and yet this somehow 646 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: does not inoculate us against future empathy gaps. We still 647 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: fail to predict the difference in both directions. Yeah, yeah, 648 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 1: this is the addiction model here is. I think it's 649 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: fascinating because on on one hand, yeah, there's if you're 650 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: if you're looking at this this gap between hot and 651 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: cold states with people who have experienced the cravings, Like, 652 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: imagine how you know, how great are the gap between 653 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 1: people between with people who have never experienced these cravings. 654 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: And I think that's that's important to keep in mind, 655 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: particularly with drug addiction, when you're thinking about drug addiction 656 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,400 Speaker 1: treatment and policies and so forth. Well, yeah, I mean, 657 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: I think this manifests so easily, and like the glib 658 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: idea where people just say, like why don't they just 659 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 1: quit or something? You know, it's just you're just you're 660 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: failing to understand how powerfully motivating the cravings are. It 661 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 1: also brings to mind and this is by no means 662 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: limited to just addiction issues, but you you you sometimes 663 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: see these situations where you'll have a prominent individual who 664 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 1: is known to have once had, you know, certain struggles 665 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: or addictions, and they may say something that that comes 666 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 1: off as um as being highly hypocritical, you know, where 667 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: someone will say, how can they say this when they 668 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: experience this themselves? You know, how can they say this 669 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 1: when they themselves went through uh, you know, whatever the 670 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: life experience might be, that's being um brought up in 671 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: the scenario. And uh, the truth is, like, it doesn't 672 00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: It ultimately doesn't take long at all for someone to 673 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: no longer be able to relate in their cold state 674 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: to what it was like being in that hot state. Yeah, exactly, 675 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: even if they personally experienced it, the gap can still 676 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: remain huge. Yeah, not to say you don't remember, you know, 677 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: what it was like on some level, what it was 678 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: like to to have cravings, what it was like to 679 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: be hungry or thirsty, etcetera. But but it's not the same. 680 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: It's not the same sort it's it's it's memory, but 681 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: but not the the empathy, not the compassion level that 682 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: would be there if you were actively uh in that 683 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 1: hot state or closer to that hot state. Yeah, but 684 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: of course, sorry, I didn't mean to derail you. But yeah, 685 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,760 Speaker 1: we were talking about pain when we discussed drug craving. 686 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: Because drug craving I think is in many ways analogous 687 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: to the motivation state of pain. Yeah. Thank this brings 688 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,319 Speaker 1: us to the realm of of of torture, uh, which 689 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: I realized as a heavy topic. But we're not gonna 690 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 1: get too heavy into the like, we're not gonna talk 691 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 1: about details of torture here for anyone who you know 692 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,320 Speaker 1: understanding why doesn't want to listen to that. But, um, 693 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: you know, on one hand, there are several problems with torture. Obviously, 694 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 1: on one hand, there's the false confession problem. Um, you know, 695 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,760 Speaker 1: on top of it being a violation of humanitarian law 696 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,840 Speaker 1: and a grave war crime, it's also highly ineffective and 697 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:28,320 Speaker 1: drawing out actual information from an individual. Because on one hand, 698 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,320 Speaker 1: you have the torture victim and whatever truth they may hold, 699 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:37,359 Speaker 1: whatever values they possess, whatever will they have to resist, uh, 700 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 1: the you know, the inquisition or what have you. But 701 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 1: on the other the torture has the unlimited nature of 702 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 1: pain on their side. And this leads leads me to 703 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,880 Speaker 1: a wonderful quote from the Name of the Rose by 704 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 1: on Berto Echo, and I believe this is um. This 705 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 1: is brother William of Baskerville speaking on the nature of 706 00:39:55,600 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: torture and truth, he writes, Under torture, you are as 707 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:04,320 Speaker 1: if under the dominion of those grasses that produce visions. 708 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: Everything you have heard teld, everything you have read, returns 709 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: to your mind, as if you were being transported not 710 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 1: toward heaven but toward hell. Under torture, you say not 711 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 1: only what the inquisitor wants, but also what you imagine 712 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: might please him, because a bond, this is truly diabolical, 713 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 1: is established between you and him. These things I know, Ubertino, 714 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: I also have belonged to those groups of men who 715 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 1: believe they can reduce the truth with white hot iron. 716 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: Will let me tell you the white heat of truth 717 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: comes from another flame. Yeah. I mean this is highlighting 718 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 1: the difference between the incentives here, like, uh, of course 719 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,800 Speaker 1: tortured it does. Any pain is a highly motivating state, 720 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 1: but it's not necessarily high highly motivating to actually give 721 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: over true statements. Right, So you know, I think everybody 722 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,279 Speaker 1: out there pretty much is gonna fall in line with 723 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 1: the rash now that torture is bad. Uh, torture is 724 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 1: not something that should be used. But but then we 725 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 1: get into the question of well, what is torture and 726 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,440 Speaker 1: that leads us to another article on which George Lowenstein 727 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: was was one of the co authors titled what constitutes 728 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:21,719 Speaker 1: Torture Psychological Impediments to an Objective Evaluation of Enhanced Interrogation 729 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:26,240 Speaker 1: Tactics by Nord Grin, McDonald and Lowenstein. It was published 730 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 1: in Psychological Science in two thousand and eleven. So the 731 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: office here point out that, yeah, while nearly all nations 732 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 1: condemn the use of torture, it can ultimately become difficult 733 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: to define. Certainly, we we can look at really physically 734 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,320 Speaker 1: brutal means of torture, you know, techniques that produce blood 735 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 1: and leave marks you know that are that may be fatal, 736 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 1: and we can say, okay, well that's torture and that's bad, 737 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 1: and we don't want to do that, nobody should do that. 738 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 1: But then you get into the whole realm of enhanced 739 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:59,760 Speaker 1: interrogation techniques that infamously leave a lot of room for interpretation. 740 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 1: And some of the common examples here are inflicting bodily 741 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: cold uh, you know, putting someone in a cold room 742 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: not like an ice box. It's going to you know, 743 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,000 Speaker 1: freeze their limbs and cause frost bite and kill them 744 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:19,440 Speaker 1: but uncomfortable, but but otherwise not harmful cold, uh, sleep deprivation, 745 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: and also social isolation. So we end up in these 746 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,959 Speaker 1: situations where someone has to weigh in, like somebody's saying 747 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 1: we should do this with people, and someone else is 748 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 1: going to come in and decide, well, is this sort 749 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,279 Speaker 1: of thing we should be doing or we shouldn't be doing? 750 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,480 Speaker 1: Is this torture? What level of pain are we are 751 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 1: we dealing with? Here? And again we get into the 752 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,879 Speaker 1: whole problem of figuring out like what is pain and 753 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:49,959 Speaker 1: what sort of a discomfort other individuals are feeling. So 754 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,879 Speaker 1: based on research into the Hot Cold, Into the Gap, 755 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 1: the authors here discussed the likelihood that anyone judging these techniques, 756 00:42:58,200 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 1: you know, and we can easily imagine this could be 757 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,440 Speaker 1: military authorities, lawmakers, or or even just you know, random 758 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,319 Speaker 1: you know, people reading a newspaper article about about these 759 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:12,120 Speaker 1: practices and the issues around them. So anyone not in 760 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,879 Speaker 1: the state of said suffering and and and on top 761 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 1: of that, but likely never have experienced that state, are 762 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,759 Speaker 1: therefore severely limited in their ability to empathize with the 763 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 1: suffering individual, making them far more likely to quote underestimate 764 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:31,239 Speaker 1: that state's motivational force and intensity. Yeah, and one thing 765 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 1: that's interesting here. I think they do make this point. 766 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 1: Uh Is that so? So you mentioned that many of 767 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,919 Speaker 1: the people looking in from the outside making judgments about 768 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: these practices have never experienced these states to begin with. 769 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,799 Speaker 1: But even if they had, the important point is, even 770 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 1: if they had experience that stated in the past, just 771 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 1: the fact that they're not experiencing it currently is enough 772 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,920 Speaker 1: for the gap to be in effect. Absolutely so. The 773 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 1: researchers here conducted three studies on the aforementioned examples of 774 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:05,799 Speaker 1: controversial technique solitary confinement, sleep deprivation, and exposure to cold temperatures, 775 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 1: and they also did a study on real versus simulated pain. 776 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 1: So for the solitary confinement experiment, they took a eight undergraduates. 777 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 1: They put them in three groups, including the control group, 778 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,040 Speaker 1: and one of these groups had a social exclusion mechanic 779 00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:23,920 Speaker 1: in play. So basically, for a couple of these groups 780 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:26,520 Speaker 1: there was like a ball game going on, just like 781 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 1: a few individuals throwing a ball back and forth. And 782 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,160 Speaker 1: for the exclusion group, it was essentially a game of 783 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: monkey in the middle with the the the the subject 784 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,279 Speaker 1: being the monkey and never getting to catch the ball, 785 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,480 Speaker 1: so they would feel excluded from you know, I'll be 786 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:46,120 Speaker 1: at a very basic social scenario here. Afterwards, people in 787 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,720 Speaker 1: all three groups were asked to weigh in on us 788 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: solitary confinement practices, and they found that individuals in the 789 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: exclusion group, this is the monkey in the middle, perceived 790 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,759 Speaker 1: the pain of solitary confined individuals to be greater than 791 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,920 Speaker 1: the in the other two groups. Now this is profound 792 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,840 Speaker 1: because the kind of exclusion that this person would have 793 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: experienced in the study is so much less than what 794 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,240 Speaker 1: you would actually feel in real solitary confinement. It only 795 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:18,360 Speaker 1: takes a little bit of experiencing of exclusion to change 796 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 1: your perception of what a more severe exclusion would feel like. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, 797 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,279 Speaker 1: absolutely important to know the researchers are not saying this 798 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,319 Speaker 1: person experienced solitary confinement. Now, they just they experienced a 799 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:34,239 Speaker 1: fraction like actual solitary confinement orders of magnitude worse for 800 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 1: an individual, but just by dipping their toes into that 801 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,239 Speaker 1: that effective state, they were able to have more compassion 802 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:45,880 Speaker 1: for the individuals in question. All right, Then came the 803 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,440 Speaker 1: sleep deprivation study. So this one, this it's always kind 804 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,759 Speaker 1: of clever how they end up, you know, trying to 805 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,040 Speaker 1: to to model these and study these. But in this one, 806 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,879 Speaker 1: they tested this out on a hundred and nine part 807 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:02,440 Speaker 1: time NBA night course students, giving the questionnaire on this 808 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,440 Speaker 1: practice to one group before the night class and the 809 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,799 Speaker 1: other after the night class, believing that the fatigue on 810 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,480 Speaker 1: these already fatigued students who worked day jobs would be 811 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:17,200 Speaker 1: greater following the class, and ultimately they found that fatigued 812 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,239 Speaker 1: individuals are the ones that take the questionnaire at the 813 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,600 Speaker 1: end of the class found sleep deprivation or they judge 814 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,000 Speaker 1: sleep deprivation to be more painful. They saw it as 815 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,359 Speaker 1: a more severe tactic. Yeah. Again, so you don't even 816 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,120 Speaker 1: have to get anywhere close to the level of sleep 817 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:36,040 Speaker 1: deprivation that could be arguably called torture here in order 818 00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:38,239 Speaker 1: for it to sort of shift your perception, you know, 819 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 1: to change to take you out of at least that 820 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,440 Speaker 1: cold state. All right. The third one here, and I 821 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,799 Speaker 1: think this one was perhaps the most interesting. Uh. This 822 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:51,560 Speaker 1: one deals with with cold cold situations cold rooms. Um, 823 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,920 Speaker 1: and this is where we bust out the basins of 824 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,360 Speaker 1: cold water. So this one, they had seventy three university 825 00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,439 Speaker 1: students put their arms in either cold water or room 826 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,719 Speaker 1: temperature water and then they bust out the questionnaires. So 827 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,920 Speaker 1: there's one group where you know, there there they put 828 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,359 Speaker 1: their arm in the cold water, and then afterwards they're 829 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 1: immediately given a questionnaire about uh, you know, inmates and 830 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,800 Speaker 1: individuals being forced to be in a cold room. Okay. 831 00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,719 Speaker 1: And then there's another group where they get out of 832 00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,520 Speaker 1: the they have their arm in room temperature water, and 833 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:26,759 Speaker 1: then they're given the questionnaire. And then there's this third 834 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,839 Speaker 1: group where uh, so bear with me, they put their 835 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,440 Speaker 1: arm in the cold water, and then immediately afterwards they're 836 00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,799 Speaker 1: given a questionnaire about some unrelated topic, and then ten 837 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:40,040 Speaker 1: minutes later they're given the cold questionnaire. And so the 838 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,839 Speaker 1: the interesting thing here is there's yes, the results were 839 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,000 Speaker 1: consistent with the hot cold empathy gap. Cold students were 840 00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,120 Speaker 1: more likely to judge cold conditions is more severe. But 841 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:54,520 Speaker 1: if their question just ten minutes out then the then 842 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,239 Speaker 1: this results in the return to the full gap of 843 00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,960 Speaker 1: empathy that's found in the room temperature water into duals. Wow, 844 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:06,080 Speaker 1: ten minutes in the gap already rewidens to its regular aperture. Yeah, 845 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,319 Speaker 1: momentary distraction by another questionnaire in like ten minutes time, 846 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,680 Speaker 1: that's enough to to to make you completely to a 847 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,840 Speaker 1: certain extent, like you, you lose any empathetic advantage that 848 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,319 Speaker 1: you gained by having that mild experience. And finally, in 849 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:23,839 Speaker 1: this particlarticular study, they did this real versus simulated pain 850 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:25,400 Speaker 1: study and I'm not going to go into the details 851 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,720 Speaker 1: on this, but basically, they just wanted to make sure 852 00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,920 Speaker 1: that this wasn't due to people experiencing the pain and 853 00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,680 Speaker 1: then overestimating the pain experienced by others. They didn't suspect 854 00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:37,480 Speaker 1: this would be the case, but they did a brief 855 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,520 Speaker 1: experiment to sort of drive that home and um, you know, 856 00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,279 Speaker 1: and sort of firm up what they were looking at here, 857 00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,080 Speaker 1: and their findings backed up the notion that no, it's 858 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,440 Speaker 1: underestimation of pain on the part of the pain for 859 00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,880 Speaker 1: each judges. Yeah. So I think the hot cold empathy 860 00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,640 Speaker 1: gap is is very well demonstrated by by a lot 861 00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,920 Speaker 1: of experimental evidence. It seems really clear that this is 862 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,839 Speaker 1: is a pretty much core feature of human brains, is 863 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,800 Speaker 1: that like when we're in that calm, cold state, we 864 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,279 Speaker 1: we don't fully appreciate how we're going to think and 865 00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:12,959 Speaker 1: how we're going to act once we're in some kind 866 00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,960 Speaker 1: of hot state. And this clearly has very significant implications 867 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,640 Speaker 1: for our lives, So it makes me think what could 868 00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:23,240 Speaker 1: really be done about it? Um, So I was looking 869 00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,840 Speaker 1: around for for things about I don't know, counteracting the 870 00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:27,839 Speaker 1: hot cold empathy gap. There are some ways in which 871 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,920 Speaker 1: it seems like it's hard to actually close the gap 872 00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:34,040 Speaker 1: without being in the hot situation yourself at the moment 873 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,239 Speaker 1: you're thinking, so, maybe a better way to deal with 874 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,839 Speaker 1: the gap is to acknowledge the gap will be there 875 00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:44,320 Speaker 1: and take precautions in advance, instead of trying to close 876 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,239 Speaker 1: it in a way that's ultimately not really possible. So, 877 00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:49,839 Speaker 1: for example, one thing it seems like you can do 878 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:53,839 Speaker 1: is um if you want the preferences that you prioritize 879 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,000 Speaker 1: while you're in a cold state to prevail later, you 880 00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:00,799 Speaker 1: can't just trust that hot you tend an hour down 881 00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,200 Speaker 1: the road is going to stick to them. Instead, you 882 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,120 Speaker 1: want to try to put like external measures in place 883 00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:10,000 Speaker 1: while you're in a cold state that will limit your 884 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:14,480 Speaker 1: ability to make unfortunate decisions while you're in a hot state. 885 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,239 Speaker 1: For instance, there are cupcakes around. You don't want to 886 00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:21,840 Speaker 1: eat the cupcakes, but you've got to realize that hot 887 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,239 Speaker 1: you is going to want to eat the cupcakes. So 888 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,719 Speaker 1: the best thing cold you can do is get rid 889 00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:28,759 Speaker 1: of all the cupcakes, right and give them away. Yes, 890 00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:30,839 Speaker 1: get get them out of your reach. And so it's 891 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,400 Speaker 1: not enough to say like, Okay, I'll just remember not 892 00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,160 Speaker 1: to eat them when I'm ungry later that you think 893 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,920 Speaker 1: that's gonna work, but it doesn't. But you can remove 894 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:44,080 Speaker 1: them from your vicinity. There was another sort of counter 895 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:48,000 Speaker 1: measure idea that I came across, actually, so after we 896 00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:50,040 Speaker 1: decided to do this, I discovered there was a Hidden 897 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:54,560 Speaker 1: Brain episode also talking about the hot cold uh empathy gap. 898 00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:56,400 Speaker 1: This was from a few years back. I think it 899 00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:58,719 Speaker 1: was called In the Heat of the Moment, and that 900 00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,759 Speaker 1: focused on a lot of different aspects. I tried to 901 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:03,920 Speaker 1: keep most of the stuff we talked about different than that, 902 00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:06,360 Speaker 1: so that if you want to listen to both episodes, 903 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:08,880 Speaker 1: they'll they'll be different things. Uh So, a lot of 904 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,400 Speaker 1: interesting stuff they talk about in that one too. But 905 00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,760 Speaker 1: there is one thing they get into that I didn't expect, 906 00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:19,200 Speaker 1: and it was army training. And the idea is basically 907 00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:23,080 Speaker 1: that in a lot of armed forces training, essentially what 908 00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:27,040 Speaker 1: you're trying to do is establishing habits and routines of 909 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,640 Speaker 1: behavior that you will follow when you're in a high 910 00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:33,920 Speaker 1: stress situation such as the heat of battle, and that 911 00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,720 Speaker 1: the nature of training for the armed forces is often 912 00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:41,040 Speaker 1: creating high stress situations that are not actually life and 913 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,560 Speaker 1: death but kind of simulating those life and death situations 914 00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,960 Speaker 1: with high stress training, so that when you're actually in 915 00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:51,400 Speaker 1: a high stress situation with life and death stakes, the 916 00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,400 Speaker 1: the affect influenced decision making that you have to do 917 00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:57,920 Speaker 1: is actually very minimal. There's not a lot of momentary 918 00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:02,719 Speaker 1: judgment involved. Instead, you've follow habits and routines that you 919 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,160 Speaker 1: have practiced over and over in advance. And that seems 920 00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,520 Speaker 1: like an interesting response to me, Like you you sort 921 00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:12,200 Speaker 1: of simulate a hot state that you know you will 922 00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,520 Speaker 1: encounter in the future, and you practice, you practice what 923 00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,120 Speaker 1: you do in that state over and over, so that 924 00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:20,600 Speaker 1: when you're actually in that state, you have a habit 925 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,160 Speaker 1: to follow instead of a decision to make. Does that 926 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:25,719 Speaker 1: make sense? Yeah? Yeah, I mean it's kind of like, 927 00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,040 Speaker 1: you know, I've encountered encountered this before. Like it's one 928 00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:34,240 Speaker 1: thing to know that you should maybe do a breathing 929 00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,520 Speaker 1: exercise if you are if you were in a hot state. 930 00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:41,280 Speaker 1: Let's say you get a bit a bit stressed or angry. Uh, 931 00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:46,800 Speaker 1: but you can't really trust hot you to decide to 932 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:48,960 Speaker 1: do the breathing exercise. Like my or at least my 933 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,880 Speaker 1: experience with myself, is that if I get into to 934 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:55,880 Speaker 1: an anxious anxious mindset or an angry mindset, I'm probably 935 00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:57,920 Speaker 1: not going to be like, hold on, I should do 936 00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:01,040 Speaker 1: a breathing exercise. But if you yourself in the habit 937 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,000 Speaker 1: of it, you know, that's that's where the benefit lies. 938 00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:06,319 Speaker 1: Like this is just this is not something I am 939 00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,520 Speaker 1: going to choose to do if the situation is right, 940 00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:12,520 Speaker 1: this is something I will do this, Uh if I 941 00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,160 Speaker 1: fall into one of these states. Yeah, exactly, that's exactly right. 942 00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:18,880 Speaker 1: And I think that there's probably a lot to be 943 00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:21,920 Speaker 1: gained from sort of generalizing that sort of response. If 944 00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:24,560 Speaker 1: there's a way that you know it would be best 945 00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:26,960 Speaker 1: for you to react with when you're in a familiar 946 00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,839 Speaker 1: hot state where you often might might do something that's 947 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,560 Speaker 1: disend vantageous to you or something you wish you hadn't 948 00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,920 Speaker 1: done later, to sort of try to simulate that state 949 00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,840 Speaker 1: when you're not actually in it, and practice practice something 950 00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:43,720 Speaker 1: that you will do habitually as a response, and in general, 951 00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,319 Speaker 1: just be prepared for the hot state, um with like 952 00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:49,640 Speaker 1: with the hangar situation, for example, Like, it's really easy 953 00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:53,520 Speaker 1: in the cold uh state to just assume you're not 954 00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,840 Speaker 1: going to need that snack, But yeah, maybe you should 955 00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:58,920 Speaker 1: just go ahead and pack the snack anyway, have something 956 00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,440 Speaker 1: on hand, because you know what's gonna happen. You know 957 00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:04,520 Speaker 1: how this is gonna end. I've been through an extensive 958 00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:08,080 Speaker 1: carrot stick munching regimen to prepare me for this moment. 959 00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:11,279 Speaker 1: All right, we're gonna go and wrap it up there, 960 00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,279 Speaker 1: But obviously we'd love to hear from everyone out there. 961 00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:18,480 Speaker 1: What are your experiences with the hot cold empathy gap? Um? 962 00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:20,919 Speaker 1: You know what, what scenarios have you found yourself in? 963 00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,719 Speaker 1: What what tips do you have for for dealing with it? 964 00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:29,960 Speaker 1: What are some other ramifications of it applications as well 965 00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,080 Speaker 1: that we didn't get into in this episode that you 966 00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:33,719 Speaker 1: might want to bring up. We'll email us about it 967 00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:36,040 Speaker 1: and we'll we'll chat about it. We may even chat 968 00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,600 Speaker 1: about it on Mondays. That's our listener Manil episode and 969 00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:42,200 Speaker 1: the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed. We have 970 00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:45,799 Speaker 1: core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, Short Form Artifact or 971 00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:47,960 Speaker 1: Monster Fact on Wednesday and on Fridays, we do Weird 972 00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,000 Speaker 1: how Cinema. That's our time to set aside most serious 973 00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,840 Speaker 1: concerns and just talk about a strange film. Huge thanks 974 00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:57,200 Speaker 1: as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 975 00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:59,239 Speaker 1: If you'd like to get in touch with us with 976 00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:02,239 Speaker 1: feedback this episode or any other, to suggest topic for 977 00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:04,400 Speaker 1: the future, or just to say hello, you can email 978 00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:14,960 Speaker 1: us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 979 00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,480 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. 980 00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,160 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart 981 00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:22,960 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 982 00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:35,560 Speaker 1: favorite shows.