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Speaker 1: On the Bechdecast, the questions asked if movies have women

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Speaker 1: and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, eff and

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Speaker 1: Beast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Bedel Cast.

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Speaker 3: Oh there's that's Oh.

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Speaker 4: I wish I had time to come up with a

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Speaker 4: second everything like immediately. Yes, every night it's like a bedocast.

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Speaker 4: Every sounds on the bed Dolcast.

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Speaker 3: People. Ever, we just lost all of our listeners all once.

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Speaker 4: I am yours, Thank you, Kia.

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Speaker 2: We gained a billion more.

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Speaker 4: The world's gonna wake up and see Bechdel Cast and

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Speaker 4: me us that's you.

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Speaker 2: The listener exactly.

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Speaker 3: It's I.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I don't know what I was going to say. Oh,

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Speaker 4: I was going to say, this is like that. I

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Speaker 4: just had a really scary flashback to like the one

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Speaker 4: year I was doing musical improv and most lines I

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Speaker 4: was firing off sounded a little something like that.

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Speaker 5: Rhy.

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Speaker 3: I'm in the word with the word word.

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Speaker 4: God, I am so jealous of people who can do

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Speaker 4: musical improv and that is a very embarrassing thing about me.

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Speaker 2: No, it's really impressive. It requires so many different skills.

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Speaker 3: I know.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And I'm also really jealous of people who can

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Speaker 5: sing in general. So dr how dare you?

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Speaker 3: It's not nice?

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Speaker 5: It's not nice. I would be such a problem if

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Speaker 5: I could sing, Oh my god, I have no friends.

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Speaker 5: They'd be like, KI, shut up, and I'd be like,

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Speaker 5: I don't know how.

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Speaker 4: I used to really like, I had a huge theater

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Speaker 4: kid phase, and then I went to school with a

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Speaker 4: theater program, and then you're kind of forced out of

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Speaker 4: being a.

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Speaker 3: Theater kid because you're like, oh, these theater kids.

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Speaker 4: Can sing, And I resented them for a while, but

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Speaker 4: then I'm like, you know what, if I can thing

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Speaker 4: like that, I guess I would be annoying as shit too.

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Speaker 4: And some people just have the gift they can be

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Speaker 4: annoying forever. So I mean, so I think we have

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Speaker 4: that gift. We've been annoying for a very long time.

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Speaker 2: We are so annoying anyways.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the Bechel Cast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Dernte,

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Speaker 2: and this is our show where we examine movies through

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Speaker 2: an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel test simply as

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Speaker 2: a jumping off point to initiate a larger conversation. What

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Speaker 2: is the Bechdel test? Though, I'll tell you, or Jamie if.

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Speaker 3: You want yeees, okay, I'll tell you. I was like, Wow,

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Speaker 3: they're really going for it today, okay.

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Speaker 4: The Bechel Test is a media metric created by queer

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Speaker 4: cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace.

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Speaker 3: Test, originally created as a bit as a goof for.

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Speaker 4: Alison Bechtel's Credible Comics collection Likes to Watch out for

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Speaker 4: You got to read it.

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Speaker 3: It's a classic. It's also getting adapted for TV.

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Speaker 4: I don't know when it comes out, but it's turning

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Speaker 4: into an animated show that I'm very excited to watch.

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Speaker 3: Anyways, a lot of different versions of this test.

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Speaker 4: It's sort of become pop. It's sort of it's become

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Speaker 4: extremely popular over the years.

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Speaker 3: But the one we use is this.

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Speaker 4: We require that there'd be two characters of a marginalized

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Speaker 4: gender with names talking to each other about something other

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Speaker 4: than a man for two lines of dialogue or more,

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Speaker 4: and it has to be an impactful exchange.

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Speaker 3: It just does. It is what it is. If you

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Speaker 3: don't like it, you can get the fuck out. Many

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Speaker 3: movie musicals past this, many movie musicals don't.

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Speaker 4: And we'll just leave it at that for now, because

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Speaker 4: today we're covering a movie musical. That's right.

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Speaker 2: It's our Hairspray episode, specifically the one from two thousand

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Speaker 2: and seven, which we were almost going to do an

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Speaker 2: episode on back in I want to say twenty eighteen

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Speaker 2: or twenty nineteen, when we famously on our Patreon aka

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Speaker 2: Matreon covered we called it different things. Sometimes it was

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Speaker 2: march Efron, sometimes it was zach Martron. Basically we were

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Speaker 2: doing zach Efron March. I don't remember if we actually

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Speaker 2: observed this in the month of March.

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Speaker 3: I would say it's safe to say that we didn't,

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Speaker 3: right exactly. Most likely we.

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Speaker 2: Knew that we had many, many, many requests for Hairspray

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Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, but we didn't end up doing

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Speaker 2: it because we wanted other perspectives aside from our own,

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Speaker 2: Hence bringing on our guest who you know her from

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Speaker 2: episodes on Cadet Kelly Brandy Cinderella from nineteen ninety seven

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Speaker 2: ever after, and she's a journalist and author of the

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Speaker 2: brand new novel The Secret Summer Promise.

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Speaker 3: Kia Brown yeah, welcome back, welcome back.

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Speaker 5: I'm so excited to be here. You know, I love

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Speaker 5: you too, So this is gonna be good.

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Speaker 3: I love you too. Congratulations on the fuck. We're so excited.

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Speaker 5: Thank you. I love it. I'm sessed. Please buy it,

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Speaker 5: thank you.

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Speaker 2: So what's your relationship with Hairspray two thousand and seven.

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Speaker 5: Oh, I'm obsessed with it, like, genuinely obsessed. It's one

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Speaker 5: of my pick me up movies when I need to

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Speaker 5: feel something good. Yeah, I put it on. Sometimes I

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Speaker 5: sing among sometimes I'm just like deeply engrossed in what's happening,

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Speaker 5: you know, I know some of the lines back and forth,

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Speaker 5: and like it's just a vibe. I'm deeply obsessed with it.

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Speaker 5: And the majority of that obsession has nothing to do

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Speaker 5: with Zach Brown. Like he's great in it, but he's

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Speaker 5: not why I keep coming.

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Speaker 3: Back, sure fair, Yeah, he's not the main attraction.

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Speaker 2: James Marsden is No, I'm kidding.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely no way.

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Speaker 4: I mean, hold on, because I think that a lot

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Speaker 4: of people would agree with that.

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Speaker 2: And I love James Marsden and sorry to not be

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Speaker 2: passing the Bechdel test right now, but and I hope

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Speaker 2: this age as well, and because you never know when

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Speaker 2: you say I love a man, I've regretted saying that

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Speaker 2: many times.

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Speaker 3: We had famous and otherwise right.

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Speaker 2: But I'm a big Marsden fan. I would say.

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Speaker 4: The man's got range. Maybe not in the movement of

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Speaker 4: his face necessarily, but he's got range. He can do anything.

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Speaker 4: I thought he was just a treat in the Sonic

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Speaker 4: the Hedgehog movies. I love the guy, and he's amazing

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Speaker 4: in that new injury duty he's doing.

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Speaker 5: He's amazing.

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Speaker 2: He's perfect.

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Speaker 5: Goodness, he's perfect.

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Speaker 4: This is my second favorite, or I guess like second

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Speaker 4: most impactful James Marston performance, right behind Enchanted.

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Speaker 3: Because I think he's pretty close to perfect and enchanted perfect.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, this is my number one. This to me is

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Speaker 5: just magnamobus. Did I use that correctly?

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Speaker 2: I think so.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he really was born to be Corny Collins.

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Speaker 5: He was, Oh, we're gonna get it, We're gonna get.

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Speaker 2: In Jamie, what is your relationship with Hairspray?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 4: I also loved the hell out of this movie, so

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Speaker 4: the second it came out, there's like for for better

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Speaker 4: or for worse. I love basically every movie musical that

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Speaker 4: came out in the two thousands. Most of this love

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Speaker 4: is purely nostalgia based when I rewatched them, because you're just.

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Speaker 3: Like hmm hmm, Joel Schumacher. Phantom of the Opera Does

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Speaker 3: it hold up? No, Well, I watched it again. Of course,

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Speaker 3: Chris Columbus rent even worse, worse. But and yet I

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Speaker 3: continue to watch Chicago Chicago Now that holds up. I

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Speaker 3: want that, not two days ago.

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Speaker 4: I love it.

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Speaker 3: And Harrispray.

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Speaker 4: I think Hairspray in Chicago or the two movie musicals

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Speaker 4: from this era that hold up the best.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a great adaptation.

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Speaker 4: And for the I had never seen before I was

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Speaker 4: prepping for this episode, I'd never seen the original John

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Speaker 4: Waters nineteen eighty eight one with Divine and Ricky Lake,

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Speaker 4: So I went back and watched it, expecting that I

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Speaker 4: would like it better, because I feel like that's the

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Speaker 4: general what you expect. The original is usually better. But

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Speaker 4: with all due respect to my king John Waters, the

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Speaker 4: musical rips. It needs the songs. It needs the songs,

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Speaker 4: and it needs James Morrison. And that's just kind of

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Speaker 4: the beginning, middle, and end.

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Speaker 2: Those are objective facts.

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Speaker 4: If Divine could be in the movie adaptation. It would

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Speaker 4: be the perfect movie in terms of me smiling. We

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Speaker 4: have plenty of notes like perfect movie.

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Speaker 2: In asterisks, many thoughts that we will share.

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Speaker 4: We have about two hours and what's not perfect about it?

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I love Hairspray.

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Speaker 4: I listened to and I also loved Nikki Blonski so much,

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Speaker 4: and I'm still angry to this day that she didn't

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Speaker 4: have a bigger career coming off of Hairspray.

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Speaker 5: A deeply agree, right.

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Speaker 4: I remember, like her origin story really spoke to me

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Speaker 4: because she worked at Coldstone Creamery and they heard her

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Speaker 4: singing there, and I was just like, that is so magical,

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Speaker 4: Like she was just like plucked out of.

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Speaker 3: Nowhere, literally perfectly cast, like the perfect Tracy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, this movie is the best, and I'm it

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Speaker 4: was interesting to look at it more critically because I

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Speaker 4: hadn't seen it in like maybe four or five years.

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Speaker 3: Kaitly went your history with Hairspray.

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Speaker 2: I saw it somewhere along the way, probably like twenty ten,

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Speaker 2: when I was first falling in love with zac Efron.

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Speaker 3: Better late than Never, Never, baby, exactly.

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Speaker 2: I watched it, maybe it was like twenty twelve, who

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Speaker 2: could say even But as listeners might know. I tend

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Speaker 2: not to gravitate toward live action movie musicals, but I

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Speaker 2: will say this one is like campy and colorful enough

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Speaker 2: that it works for me. Some of them are just

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Speaker 2: too they're taking themselves too seriously or something. They need

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Speaker 2: to basically be an animated movie without actually being animated

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Speaker 2: for me to be able to stomach a movie musical.

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Speaker 2: But this one works.

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Speaker 3: I kind of I kind of wonder.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, It's like I think that I consider the end

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Speaker 4: of like movie musicals of me seeing every movie musical

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Speaker 4: was when I just could not do the lame Is adaptation.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't do it.

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Speaker 5: No thank you, I could not do it, could not

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Speaker 5: finish it. I was like, that's not for me specifically

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Speaker 5: a virgo, but it's for somebody.

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Speaker 4: Someone likes it. I'm glad that that movie is hilarious too,

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Speaker 4: because it's like that I think that that's that's the same.

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Speaker 3: Director as Cats yea an iconic movie musical, But.

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Speaker 4: There it's like the I think that that's where that

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Speaker 4: director was like, we're gonna do live singing, and for

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Speaker 4: some reason everyone's like, good idea.

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Speaker 3: But then you listen to.

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Speaker 4: The soundtrack and you're like, oh, this is not a

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Speaker 4: good idea. We shouldn't be hearing Russell Crosse sing live,

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Speaker 4: and I think he'd agree with us. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just as bad as when Pierce Brosnan sings

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Speaker 2: a song in Mamma Mia.

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Speaker 3: Oh but he's camp.

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Speaker 4: Do you remember the song in Mama Mia where he

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Speaker 4: sings like like I don't know, like his mouth is

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Speaker 4: just like full the whole time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The way he sings sos is unparalleled.

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Speaker 5: It's like he's on the joke. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate.

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Speaker 3: Russell Crowe didn't get the memo unfortunately.

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Speaker 2: So I it took me a while to see this Hairspray,

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Speaker 2: but I did see the nineteen is it eighty eight? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: hairsp Bray, written and directed by John Waters. I saw

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Speaker 2: that sometime in college, so it was like two thousand

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Speaker 2: and five, two thousand and six. I was watching a

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Speaker 2: few John Waters movies back then, including Pink Flamingos, and

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Speaker 2: I think cry Baby was the other one. And I

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Speaker 2: because cry Baby is a musical, I think I assumed

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Speaker 2: the original would be a musical as well, but no,

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Speaker 2: but it's not. And what happened was that the so

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Speaker 2: this movie that we're talking about today is based on

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Speaker 2: the Broadway musical adaptation of the original movie from nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty eight, so it went through a few different evolutions.

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Speaker 4: It's funny because we're Kiya after this, we're doing Newsies,

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Speaker 4: which is like kind of the opposite journey where it's

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Speaker 4: like movie musical and everyone hated it and then they

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Speaker 4: turned it into anyways.

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Speaker 3: I love musicals so much. I can't believe.

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Speaker 4: Prepping for these episodes reminded me that we have yet

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Speaker 4: to cover Little Shop of.

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Speaker 3: Horrors and how that is a travesty.

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Speaker 4: Okay, Hairspray, Yeah, I'm really excited to talk about like

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Speaker 4: the history of and like the adaptation changes that were

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Speaker 4: made too, Because I knew that John Water's allegiance to

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Speaker 4: Baltimore is unparalleled and he lives there to this day,

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Speaker 4: but I didn't know how connected the original story for

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Speaker 4: Hairspray was to like his childhood, and Hairspray is basically

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Speaker 4: like a like John waters reimagined history of his own childhood.

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Speaker 4: So excited to get into it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's take a quick break and then come back

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Speaker 2: for the recap and we're back. We're back, Okay, Here

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Speaker 2: is the recap of Hairspray two thousand and seven.

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Speaker 4: Everyone's welcome to sing when their favorite songs come up.

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Speaker 3: Yes, putting that out there.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so we are famously in Baltimore, Maryland. Ever heard

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Speaker 2: of it? It is nineteen sixty two. Yes, we meet

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Speaker 2: teenager Tracy Turnblad played by Nikki Blonski as she's putting

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Speaker 2: on Hairspray and singing, good morning Baltimore.

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Speaker 4: I song love her so much.

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Speaker 2: She's incredible.

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Speaker 3: I love when people have it.

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Speaker 4: It's like, one of the easiest ways to get me

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Speaker 4: to fall in love with the character is when they

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Speaker 4: have deep allegiance to a place that kind of sucks,

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Speaker 4: and that is like the most relatable, wonderful thing in

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Speaker 4: the entire world.

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Speaker 3: I feel nothing when people are like New York is amazing.

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Speaker 3: You're just like, shut up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that famous song new York is amazing.

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Speaker 3: You know, from the musical New York is Amazing. Well,

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Speaker 3: but the King of New York Newsies. I got Newsies

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Speaker 3: in the brain. Anyways.

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Speaker 4: I don't really respond to songs about New York or

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Speaker 4: LA because there's a billion of them. Yeah, there's only

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Speaker 4: one song about Baltimore that I know of, and it

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Speaker 4: involves Tracy Turnblood going to school in a garbage truck

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Speaker 4: and that I love.

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Speaker 5: We love a queen. Okay, so.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, she misses the school bus. She's gonna get on

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Speaker 2: a garbage truck. The song is about how she loves

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Speaker 2: life and she loves Baltimore and she loves dancing. We

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Speaker 2: also get a little cameo from John Waters and.

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Speaker 3: He's the flasher who lives next door mm hmm.

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Speaker 2: And she sings about how she wants to be a star.

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Speaker 2: She just needs the opportunity. She goes to school, it's

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Speaker 2: boring and she's really just counting down the minutes when

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Speaker 2: she and her best friend Penny Pingleton played by Amanda

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Speaker 2: Bynes a perfectly cash so perfectly cast love her.

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Speaker 3: I forgot that.

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Speaker 4: Alison Janny plays Amanda Byn's mom, and that's really inspired

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Speaker 4: that that happened.

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Speaker 2: This is an incredible cast. You've got Christopher Walkin, You've

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Speaker 2: got Michelle Pfeiffer, basically all of the villains from Batman Returns.

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Speaker 2: You've got Jerry Stiller, John Travolta, is there, Brittany no

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Speaker 2: Queen Latifa. It's just wow, it's exciting.

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Speaker 4: A very young Oh my gosh, wait, no, a very

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Speaker 4: young she's mainly a composer. Now, who am I thinking

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Speaker 4: of Taylor Parks? For all you pop music heads out there,

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Speaker 4: she's like a really favorable she's an artist as well,

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Speaker 4: but she's like written a ton of pop songs and

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Speaker 4: she plays yez.

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Speaker 2: Okay. So Tracy and Penny go home and watch their

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Speaker 2: favorite after school television program called Corny Collins Show, hosted

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Speaker 2: by Corny Collins played by James Marsden.

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Speaker 3: I didn't tap dance to that in high school.

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Speaker 2: Whoa yeah twist when he's like.

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Speaker 5: Nice white kids, you like something their day and once

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Speaker 5: a month we have a good day. I love that. Sorry,

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Speaker 5: I'm feeling.

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Speaker 2: Things for your heart out.

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Speaker 3: This is now a singing podcast, no experience required.

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Speaker 2: So on the Corny Collins Show, teens dance. That's really

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Speaker 2: just this show that the teens are dancing with each.

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Speaker 4: Other based on like real shows that happens back in

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Speaker 4: the day. And this we'll get into this a little

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Speaker 4: like The Corny Collins Show is parodying or mirroring a

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Speaker 4: specific Baltimore based team dance show that John Waters watched

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Speaker 4: growing up that also had a majority white cast and

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Speaker 4: then had I believe that they did call it Negro

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Speaker 4: Day in Baltimore at the time. So like most of

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Speaker 4: the details of the Corney Collin Show are directly ripped

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Speaker 4: from John Watter's childhood, except for the way the movie ends,

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Speaker 4: which we'll get.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, okay. So we meet some of the teens

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Speaker 2: who regularly dance on the Corney Collins Show, including Amber

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Speaker 2: that's Britney Snow and Link that's zac Efron and it's

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Speaker 2: also like Link Zelda Tears of the Kingdom much anyway,

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Speaker 2: we get to know Amber and Link a little bit.

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Speaker 2: They are dating. Amber is very mean, Link is nice,

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Speaker 2: and Tracy has a big crush on Link.

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Speaker 4: There is this thing with Okay, I never noticed this before,

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Speaker 4: but there is definitely a vibe about Harris Bray where,

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Speaker 4: for some reason, men most men in this story are

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Speaker 4: impervious to being bad.

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Speaker 3: They're all good. No, he's good.

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Speaker 4: Corney Collins, He's definitely not racist, he's good.

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Speaker 5: The only guy who's questionable is the station manager, the

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Speaker 5: person above Michelle Pfeiffer's character.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yes, capitalism the person racism the person yes.

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Speaker 5: Except he doesn't outwardly, He's not as outward about it

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Speaker 5: in the way that Michelle Pfeifer is, which I find

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Speaker 5: to be hilarious because you would think it would be

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Speaker 5: coming from him to her and then her carrying it.

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Speaker 5: But it's just like, no, she's rogue.

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Speaker 2: She's like mask off evil. Yeah, extremely she took her

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Speaker 2: catwoman mask off, and she's like, I'm she was like racism.

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Speaker 5: She was like, I don't want to be I want

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Speaker 5: to be racist.

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Speaker 2: So but she plays such a good villain, she really does.

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Speaker 2: So we meet all these teens who are mostly white,

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Speaker 2: and then we learn about this one day of the

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Speaker 2: mon that they call Negro d which is led by

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Speaker 2: motormouth Mabel played by Queen Latifah, which is the only

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Speaker 2: time when black people are allowed to dance on the program.

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Speaker 2: Otherwise the show is completely segregated and white. The show

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Speaker 2: announces that they have a spot, an open spot for

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Speaker 2: a new dancer, and they're holding auditions, and Tracy wants

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Speaker 2: to audition, but her mom, Edna turned Blad played by

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Speaker 2: John Travolta, is worried that people will laugh at her

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Speaker 2: because Tracy is fat. But her dad, Wilbur played by

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Speaker 2: Christopher Walkin, is like, no, Tracy, if you want it,

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Speaker 2: go for it.

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Speaker 3: So another man who's always good, good, never bed.

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Speaker 4: I did think and we'll talk about this later too.

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Speaker 4: I rewatching this. I do feel like this movie does

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Speaker 4: a pretty solid job of like illustrating how mothers will

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Speaker 4: often project their own issues onto their daughters.

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Speaker 3: I love that Tracy's like nope.

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Speaker 5: She's like I'm good, thank you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we're actually both on a healing journey mother. It's nice.

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Speaker 2: So Tracy goes to the audition. But Velma von Tussel. Also,

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Speaker 2: the character names in this movie are incredible. Everything that's

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Speaker 2: Michelle Pfeiffer aka former Miss Baltimore Crabs.

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Speaker 4: She is I love when in these movie musicals when

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Speaker 4: the actor can't really sing and kind of knows that

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Speaker 4: and so it's just like I'm just gonna perform. And

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Speaker 4: I feel like Michelle Pfeiffer really performs Miss Baltimore Crabs.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't say she's singing necessarily, but I don't care.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yes, And Velma does not like the look of Tracy,

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Speaker 2: and she does not like that Tracy is pro integration because,

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Speaker 2: as we mentioned, Velma is very racist. She's also Amber's

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Speaker 2: mom and the TV station manager, so she has like

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Speaker 2: a say in who is being cast in which like

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Speaker 2: kind of segments will happen or not on the.

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Speaker 3: Show Very Evil Girl Boss. Yes, Yes five.

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Speaker 2: So later that day at school, Tracy gets detention because

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Speaker 2: of the height of her hair, and this is where

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Speaker 2: she meets several black students because similar to the American

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Speaker 2: prison industrial complex, where black people are disproportionately incarcerated, black

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Speaker 2: students at this school are disproportionately sent to detention. And

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Speaker 2: there Tracy meets befriends, and dances with Seaweed Jay Stubbs

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Speaker 2: played by Elijah Kelly.

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Speaker 4: I had a crush on every boy in this movie

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Speaker 4: when I was oh, and I.

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Speaker 5: Went through a real like I'm gonna marry all of you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I just really like some days it's a zach Afronde,

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Speaker 4: some days it's an Elijah Kelly day, and if I'm

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Speaker 4: feeling mature, it's a James Marsden day.

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Speaker 3: Really, anything can happen.

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Speaker 2: Now, Link, who goes to Tracy's school sees her dancing

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Speaker 2: in the detention room and is like, oh, if Corny

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Speaker 2: Collins saw you dancing like that, he would put you

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Speaker 2: on the show. And then Tracy considers this and then

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Speaker 2: does a whole song and dance number about how horny

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Speaker 2: she is for link. Then she goes back to the

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Speaker 2: set of the show or some event. It's like a

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Speaker 2: dance event sponsored by the Corny Collins Show or I

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Speaker 2: don't know something. The Corny Collins people are there and

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Speaker 2: she quote unquote borrows a dance slash appropriates a dance

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Speaker 2: from her new friend Seaweed, which never.

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Speaker 4: Is brought up again. She she does she does what

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Speaker 4: the TikTok thing that white teenagers do on TikTok there that, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I guess it never like truly truly hit, and it's

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Speaker 4: kind of embarrassing. It never like truly hit until I

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Speaker 4: was watching to prep for this episode that I was like,

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Speaker 4: she steals seaweed dance and never credits.

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Speaker 5: Because she asks, but she never ever says and this

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Speaker 5: is by Seaweed.

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Speaker 4: She's just like, yeah, which is wild because Seaweed is

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Speaker 4: usually right there. It's so it's so annoying that that

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Speaker 4: was one, especially because like that happens in the original

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Speaker 4: as well, and it's like, you could change.

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Speaker 2: That, but nope, they did not.

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Speaker 5: And then Zagafron sings Ladies' Choice, which is such banger,

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Speaker 5: like it's still on my Apple Music.

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Speaker 4: I really does I feel like zach Efron when he

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Speaker 4: was not allowed to sing in high school musical one.

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Speaker 4: He took that really personally and dedicated the next half

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Speaker 4: decade of his life to being like, Oh, I can't sing,

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Speaker 4: Oh I can't sing. That's interesting, when obviously he can.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen it, I've heard it. Okay. So Corny

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Speaker 2: Collins sees Tracy doing this dance and he loves it,

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Speaker 2: and he puts her on the show, and she's now

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Speaker 2: a cast member. She is continuing to talk about how

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Speaker 2: she is pro integration. Corney Collins is also pro integration,

439
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 2: which enrages Velma. Also, Corney announces the Miss Teen Hairspray contest,

440
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 2: which is Tracy's dream to participate in, and so Tracy

441
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 2: starts regularly dancing on the program. She's becoming more and

442
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 2: more popular. Kids at school are starting to pay more

443
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 2: attention to her. Mister Pinky played by Jerry Stiller who

444
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 2: is in the original movie, who plays her dad. Yeah,

445
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,919
Speaker 2: he is the owner of a dress store and he

446
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 2: wants Tracy to be his spokesgirl. And Tracy is like, oh, mom,

447
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 2: you should be my agent and help me negotiate deals

448
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 2: like this, But her mom Edna is very self conscious

449
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 2: about her weight and she hasn't left the house in years.

450
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 2: So Tracy, via song and dance, of course, shows her

451
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 2: mom that times are changing and that for people who

452
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 2: are different, our time is coming.

453
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 4: I love that. I mean, I love all those songs.

454
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 4: I also love Welcome to the Sixties. Also did a

455
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 4: dance to that in high school.

456
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 2: Incredible.

457
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 5: It's such a good song. So you made the correct choice.

458
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 2: It's true. Then Seaweed invites Tracy, Link and Penny to

459
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 2: a party where they meet Seaweed's sister, Little Linez, played

460
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 2: by Taylor Parks, and everyone is dancing and having a

461
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 2: good time. There's romantic tension between Seaweed and Penny, but

462
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 2: then Maybell reveals that Velma has canceled Negro Day and

463
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:28,199
Speaker 2: Tracy suggests that they march and protest, because you know,

464
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 2: civil rights demonstrations were white people's ideascy and they're like, wow,

465
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 2: great idea, Tracy, and Tracy plans to march with her

466
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 2: black friends, but Link is a coward and he's like,

467
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,360
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna go. This would jeopardize my career.

468
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 4: Another I mean, it's so weird. Okay, So this is

469
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 4: where obviously, the all men are good rule that this

470
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 4: movie subscribes to is challenged, but it doesn't close in

471
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,360
Speaker 4: a satisfying way at all at all.

472
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 5: They're like are you Are you guys good? They're like yeah,

473
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 5: you know, no, Biggie, Like I feel like, yeah, we're good.

474
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 5: We'll just we'll look past that the fact that you

475
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 5: don't care enough to stand up for people that are

476
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 5: supposed to be my friends, and we'll just.

477
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 2: Write be together and then I'm gonna kiss you at

478
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 2: the end. I feel like when he.

479
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 4: Comes back, he's responding to like not the issue of

480
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 4: why everyone's mad at him, where like he everyone's like,

481
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 4: well fuck you link because he refuses to stand up

482
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 4: to racism or march. And but then he comes back

483
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 4: and he's like, Tracy, I love your body.

484
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 2: And I was like, that wasn't that wasn't the issue.

485
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 3: That wasn't the problem.

486
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 4: But she's like okay, and then it was like, but

487
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 4: that wasn't the issue.

488
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 3: I felt like I was losing my mind.

489
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I was.

490
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 5: Just thinking like in with in the song without Love,

491
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 5: literally they're talking about like like in the Sex with

492
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 5: Seaweed and Penny, it's like very clear, like we can't

493
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 5: be together. And then it's like Link is over there,

494
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 5: like Tracy without you, like I don't know what I'll do,

495
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 5: And then she's like, Link, I'm about the breakout so

496
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 5: that I can get my hand down. You're like they're

497
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 5: having separate, separate conversations entirely about what's Yeah.

498
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 2: One of his lyrics is something like I will love

499
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 2: you no matter what you weigh. And it's not that

500
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 2: that's coming out of nowhere completely because various characters have

501
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 2: commented on her weight prior to this, but Link never did,

502
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 2: and that didn't seem to be an issue for him

503
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 2: nor for Tracy.

504
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 5: In fact, it was never an issue for Tracy. Right,

505
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 5: that was an issue for her mom. But Tracy has

506
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 5: never once been like I don't like my body, I'm

507
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 5: uncomfortable with what I weigh. Link won't love me, in fact,

508
00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 5: she says, and I can hear the bells and birthday

509
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 5: the Link will love a woman like we will wait

510
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 5: and see, like she knows that she's got you know

511
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 5: what it takes to be loved by somebody regardless of anything.

512
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 4: Exactly, which is like one of the which is one

513
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 4: of the like that's what I love so much about Tracy,

514
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 4: and that's true in both adaptations, but I feel like

515
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 4: it's stated really really clearly. But yeah, it's like Link

516
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 4: is inventing a problem that he doesn't ever talk about

517
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 4: with anybody else if it is a problem for him,

518
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 4: or like an insecurity that he has or a stigma

519
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 4: that he's absorbed. But yeah, he doesn't seem to understand

520
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 4: why everyone's mad at him.

521
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, and then strangely enough, like he comes back and

522
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 5: everybody's just not mad. I mean, that's how musicals work.

523
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 5: But it's like everybody forgot about their fundamental differences in

524
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 5: terms of even even I did because I love this movie.

525
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 5: But it's like, but it's like, when you think about

526
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 5: it critically, they would have to have a conversation about it.

527
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 5: There's just no way. But you know, in my head,

528
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:07,479
Speaker 5: canda together forever. It's fine. But still they just everybody

529
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 5: was like, oh, okay, he's with us now because he's

530
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 5: dancing on stage, you can't stop the beat. And then

531
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 5: he's like, come on, I knows, let's let's you know,

532
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 5: let's do it, and they dance and he gives it

533
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 5: her moment and like it's like, okay, cool. He likes

534
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 5: bad people awesome. You know, it's like, I guess he

535
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 5: learned or whatever.

536
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: He's one of the white people who helps solve racism

537
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 2: in this movie.

538
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, they really This movie is wild.

539
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 4: And we were talking about this yesterday with a very

540
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 4: different movie, National Treasure Too where it's like it I

541
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 4: don't know, because this movie's messaging is so like everything

542
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 4: is great and three white people from Baltimore solved racism forever.

543
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 4: It's like the fact that the movie is also really

544
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 4: fun to watch, that a more sticky lie to like

545
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 4: absorb and the same way that you're like, I love

546
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 4: watching National Treasure Too Bad that it's jingoistic garbage at

547
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 4: its core.

548
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 3: But.

549
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, see, I feel like I feel like the ability

550
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 5: for it to be so fun the two thousand and

551
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 5: seventh verge because I like the original, but let's be serious.

552
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not as fun.

553
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 5: This one's fun. I think the way that this is

554
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 5: fun sort of makes you forget just how to me.

555
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 5: It makes me forget just how messy the sort of

556
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 5: positives and reality of what's happening is. Because I spent

557
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 5: my time desperate to find Corny Collins and Motormouth Maybell

558
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 5: fan fiction yes, did you want first watch this? I

559
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 5: was like, I want them to get bad. We need

560
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 5: a sequel bad. And I was just like, I remember

561
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 5: being like a child searching for their fan fiction because

562
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 5: I wanted somebody else to prove to me that I

563
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 5: was not wrong about their insane chemistry.

564
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 2: Did you ever find it?

565
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: No?

566
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 2: Well, I guess you have to write it.

567
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 4: James Marrison been and anything with Queen Latifa since because

568
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 4: their chemistry is truly off the charts.

569
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 5: I don't think so. But I feel like if I

570
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 5: was to ever interview him, like I wouldn't act, that

571
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 5: would be my first question. I'd be like, listen, can

572
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 5: we talk about the chemistry that you too at or

573
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 5: you know, do you have time for that? They'd be like, Kia,

574
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 5: that's not the aim of this article about years ago.

575
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 4: It doesn't matter, Okay, So back to the movie that

576
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 4: is about the movie that was all on time.

577
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 2: Sorry, back to the recap. Back to the recap. Link

578
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 2: has just said I'm not going to march with you.

579
00:33:54,880 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: I can't jeopardize my career, which upsets Tracy greatly. Meanwhile,

580
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 2: Velma goes to Tracy's dad's joke shop. She's trying to

581
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 2: seduce him in order to destroy their family and try

582
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 2: to get Tracy kicked off the show, and it almost

583
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 2: works because Edna walks in the shop when Velma has

584
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 2: herself wrapped around Wilbur, and she gets very upset. But

585
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 2: Edna eventually forgives Wilbur, realizing that it was like a setup,

586
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 2: and the two of them, Edna and Wilbur sing a

587
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 2: song about how they are timeless to each other.

588
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 4: They're kind of beautiful, yeah, and neither of them can

589
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 4: sing no, but that's okay.

590
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 3: It works.

591
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 5: It was beautiful. It was beautiful though, like, wow, what

592
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 5: a moment.

593
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 3: I know mom and dad are working it out.

594
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,280
Speaker 2: Then it's the day of the march and Tracy shows

595
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 2: up and Maybell is like, well, if you march with us,

596
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 2: you will never be allowed to dance on the show again.

597
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 2: And Tracy says, I don't care. This is more important,

598
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 2: So they march. Maybell sings a song and the cops

599
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 2: and press show up and Tracy hits a cop with

600
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:18,399
Speaker 2: her sign and he's like, you just assaulted me. So

601
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 2: she runs away and now there's this huge man hunt

602
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 2: with the cops looking for Tracy. Penny tries to help her,

603
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 2: but Penny's mom Alice and Janny, who is also very

604
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: racist and very awful.

605
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 3: And also super religious.

606
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 2: Right, yes, she punishes Penny and like locks her in

607
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 2: her room, but then Seaweed comes to rescue Penny. While

608
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 2: that's happening, Link realizes he's in love with Tracy, and

609
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: they all are singing a song about these kind of

610
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 2: like forbidden love's kind of thing.

611
00:35:58,880 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

612
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 4: I just wanted to make a quick note that in

613
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,760
Speaker 4: the I think the original movie if I'm remembering correctly,

614
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 4: and definitely in the original stage musical at Tracy goes

615
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 4: to jail with other protesters, that does.

616
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 3: Not happen in the movie. So they cut a song

617
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 3: that I've never heard. Oh but it's called the Big

618
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 3: Dollhouse question mark.

619
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: I don't know, okay, sure.

620
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 5: Also, can I make one small note please when one

621
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 5: of the funniest lines to me in the movie is

622
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 5: when Seaweed goes to get Kenny out and she's like,

623
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 5: sorry about the nots and he was like, it's fine,

624
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 5: but was your mom and the Navy? Yeah, because he's

625
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 5: impressed finding it, by the way, how like intricate the

626
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 5: knots are And he's like one of the funniest lines

627
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 5: to me in the movie because he's just like, what

628
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 5: is going on? Am I going to get you out

629
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:49,800
Speaker 5: of it?

630
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 4: Right?

631
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 2: Yeah? Because she says something like I was so worried

632
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 2: that the color of our skin would keep us apart,

633
00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 2: and he's like, no, but these knots might yeah, and

634
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 2: we're like, uh huh okay. So then Tracy, Penny, Seaweed,

635
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 2: Maybelle Edna, and a bunch of other people sneak into

636
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 2: the TV station on the day of the Miss Hairspray pageant,

637
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 2: and right when it seems like Amber is about to

638
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: be announced as the winner, Tracy crashes the pageant. She

639
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,399
Speaker 2: dances with Link a little bit, and then Link as

640
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 2: we as We alluded to, invites Seaweed's little sister, Ayez,

641
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 2: on to the stage to dance, which is the first

642
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 2: time this program has integrated dancing, which, of course Velma

643
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 2: has a conniption about. Penny's mom is also seeing this

644
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 2: on TV. She's freaking out because then like Seaweed comes

645
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 2: on stage and dances with Penny. Meanwhile, a bunch of

646
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 2: people are calling into the station to place their votes

647
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 2: for the pageant, and Anez is named Miss Teen Hairspray,

648
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 2: and then Corny Collins declares that his show is now

649
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 2: officially integrated and everyone's dancing and having a great time.

650
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 2: Velma is fired, and then Tracy and Link kiss the end.

651
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 5: I just think, what a movie.

652
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 3: The end, They're like, racism cured, we fixed it nineteen

653
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 3: sixty two, only took a couple of weeks.

654
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 2: You're like, wow, kind of yep, So let's take another

655
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 2: quick break and we will come back to discuss, and

656
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:48,240
Speaker 2: we are back.

657
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 4: It's true.

658
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 2: Where shall we start?

659
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 4: Where? Well? I can I share the historical context to begin?

660
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 2: Please?

661
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 4: So yeah, I didn't know any of of this before

662
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 4: prepping for this episode, but John Waters wrote and directed

663
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 4: the original and was very much pulling from his memories

664
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 4: of Baltimore growing up when writing this. And so The

665
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 4: Corny Collins Show is directly based on a teen dance

666
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 4: show called The Buddy Dean Show that also had a

667
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,839
Speaker 4: big integration scandal. However, it ends very differently. So I'm

668
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 4: going to be reading from an Atlantic article that came

669
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 4: out in twenty sixteen where there was a lot of

670
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 4: writing about Hairspray because they did one of those TV

671
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 4: broadcasts of the stage musical. So there's a lot of

672
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 4: twenty sixteen discourse around Hairspray, which sounds confusing but isn't anyways.

673
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 4: The piece is by Matthew Delmont, and here it is quote.

674
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 4: In December nineteen sixty three, producers at Baltimore's WJZTV canceled

675
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 4: the book Buddy Dean Show rather than integrate the popular

676
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 4: teen dance program. This move would have been a footnote

677
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 4: in the annals of television if not for director John Waters,

678
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 4: whose nineteen eighty eight film Hairspray offered up an alternate

679
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 4: history with its fictional Corny Collins Show and rose tinted

680
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 4: lets all Dance Together. Ending from nineteen fifty seven to

681
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 4: nineteen sixty three, only white teens were allowed to attend

682
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 4: the weekday broadcasts of The Buddy Dean Show, with the

683
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 4: exception of one Monday each month when black teenagers filled

684
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 4: the studio, the so called Black Monday. In nineteen sixty three,

685
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 4: the Civic Interest Group, a student integrationist group founded at

686
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 4: Morgan State University, challenged this policy by obtaining tickets for

687
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 4: black and white teens to attend the show on a

688
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 4: day reserve for black teenagers. After a surprise interracial broadcast.

689
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 4: WJZTV received bomb and arson threats, hate mail, and complaints

690
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 4: from white parents. Facing controversy over the possibility of more

691
00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 4: integrated broadcasts, the station canceled the program. So that is

692
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 4: something that John Waters remembered from when he was a kid,

693
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 4: and that was kind of part of his I guess

694
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 4: mission when writing nineteen eighty eight, was imagining that ending differently,

695
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 4: So I just wanted to open with that thing I learned.

696
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 2: Yes, that is helpful context. And he was I think

697
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:35,280
Speaker 2: one of the few white filmmakers in that era who

698
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 2: was addressing and examining racial inequality of that time. And

699
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 2: then he wrote this kind of like fairy tale ending

700
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 2: almost to this narrative, So you kind of have to

701
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 2: look at the movie through that lens of like, yeah,

702
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 2: everything was great and racism solved. But yea, his approach

703
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 2: to that is extremely a like white perspective, and this

704
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 2: adaptation that we are talking about, we're focusing on the

705
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven to one, carries a lot of

706
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 2: that like kind of fumbling of how that subject matter

707
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 2: is handled because like, this is a white savior narrative.

708
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 2: The movie has very few black characters despite it being

709
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 2: a movie that involves advocating for racial integration. Like we mentioned,

710
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 2: there are moments of like characters appropriating culture and dance

711
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 2: from black characters, and the movie presenting that is like

712
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 2: a positive thing. There's this example of like police aggression

713
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 2: directed toward a civil rights protester, but it being directed

714
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 2: at a white person, when we know that police aggression

715
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,320
Speaker 2: and brutality is disproportionately targeted at black and brown people.

716
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 2: So there's just all these things that they're like, yeah,

717
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 2: white people, it was their idea to solve racism, and

718
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 2: then they did it.

719
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 5: I think the thing though, and I kind of give

720
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 5: them credit for this, is that, like, as a black person,

721
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 5: I enjoy the movie more knowing that it ends in

722
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 5: this weird happily ever after. Like I don't want to

723
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,280
Speaker 5: watch a movie where I'm just reminded of the trauma

724
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 5: of you know, that time frame, and that's in the

725
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 5: civil rights in general. It's like, I enjoy that this

726
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 5: version of the movie Corny Collins Show didn't get canceled,

727
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 5: or that you know, racism is seemingly solved, because I

728
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 5: don't want to watch another movie or another musical where

729
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:50,320
Speaker 5: I'm reminded of my own otherness because I see it

730
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 5: all the time. Like I think that the I think

731
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 5: the thing that for me about Hairspray is that I

732
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 5: can forgive the rest of it because I don't need

733
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 5: it to be a document styles right, I would prefer

734
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 5: to escape for a little and pretend, like you know,

735
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 5: Corny Combs are the person that exists, and he's like

736
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 5: nice to black people and secretly with mortimonk female because

737
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 5: they're seeing you together and they're very happy and it's fine.

738
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 5: But I would also, like I just I think for

739
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 5: me it's easier to dismiss or ignore those things because

740
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 5: it makes me feel better knowing that they don't exist

741
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:31,720
Speaker 5: in that world. If that makes sense.

742
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 2: That is totally fair.

743
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's something that I saw when I was going

744
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 4: through the sort of like twenty sixteen round of discourse,

745
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 4: A great time for internet discourse. Twenty sixteen really nothing,

746
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 4: nothing like it, only only better discourse was twenty twenty

747
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 4: a great year having opinions. Yeah, And I think that

748
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 4: the discussion that you two were both having was very

749
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 4: present in that round of discourse because I think in

750
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 4: that same piece in the Atlantic, Matthew Delmont is arguing

751
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 4: that you know twenty sixteen is not the time to

752
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 4: be presenting alternative history on the history of racism in America,

753
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 4: which I think is a fair point. And also I don't,

754
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 4: I don't know. I think it like really depends on

755
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 4: who is watching Hairspray and what they're watching it for.

756
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 4: It Really it feels like it's the eye of the

757
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 4: beholder is really relevant in that discussion because like you,

758
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,479
Speaker 4: what you just said like makes total sense. Why would

759
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 4: you want to see trauma played out in this big,

760
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 4: splashy musical. And then also it's like, I don't know,

761
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 4: I guess. It's like I don't, I guess. I wonder

762
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 4: is there a member of the audience in Hairspray that

763
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 4: watches it and is like, yep, this was historical document?

764
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 5: Like the thing is like, why are you watching hares

765
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:58,839
Speaker 5: for a history lesson? I think it's the same thing

766
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 5: with the Little More the new reboot is people were

767
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 5: up White people were upsetly be clear, it was white

768
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 5: people who were upset because they didn't talk about slavery,

769
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 5: because when they adjusted where everything was, they were upset

770
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 5: that they didn't talk about slavery. And it's like, sorry,

771
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,800
Speaker 5: I don't want to go see Ario Eric and the

772
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 5: Slave Trade. I don't want to. I don't want to

773
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 5: go see that. I think. I think if you're looking

774
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 5: at a movie musical from two thousand and seven and

775
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 5: saying to yourself, damn it, why is that not accurate

776
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 5: to what actually happened? Is this my history? Then you

777
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 5: have bigger fish to fry, Like it's not, you have

778
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 5: bigger concern I guess.

779
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 2: I guess. My thing is that had this been in

780
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 2: the hands of black filmmakers, they would have because, like,

781
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 2: I also appreciate that there's like escapist media that does

782
00:46:55,440 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 2: touch on racism and segregation that doesn't have this like traumatic,

783
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 2: violent ending. But I think that there are certain elements

784
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 2: within the story that could have been handled a little

785
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,720
Speaker 2: bit differently had they been had it been like written

786
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 2: and directed by black filmmakers, where there wouldn't be those

787
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:19,399
Speaker 2: like moments where like, yeah, oh, it's totally fine when

788
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:23,760
Speaker 2: this white person appropriates this dance from this black dancer.

789
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 2: Yeah it's the white girl's idea for the black people

790
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 2: to hold a protest like.

791
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 5: It would have been met with more nuance.

792
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 2: I see what you're saying, right right, right right, Yeah,

793
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 2: I think my main issue.

794
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, because it's I guess the frustrating thing is like

795
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 4: those would not have been difficult changes to make, and

796
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,800
Speaker 4: it wouldn't have really changed what happens in the story

797
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 4: much at all.

798
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 5: I think in many ways it is a reflection of

799
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 5: what happens, you know, but who will say something and

800
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 5: then a white person will get the credit for it

801
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 5: or whatever. Sure, but I do think I see what

802
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 5: you're saying, Caitlin about the fact that, like, if it

803
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 5: was directed by black people, there would be more nuanced

804
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 5: to it. It would it would have brought about I think,

805
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 5: a more nuanced conversation for sure. But I do absolutely

806
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 5: see what you're saying. I just think it's like in

807
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 5: that aspect. Unfortunately, in many ways, it's true you shoult

808
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 5: of have to use non black people to get the

809
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,839
Speaker 5: point across about black things, even though it didn't really

810
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 5: work because she didn't give them credit.

811
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: Right.

812
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's frustrating because it's like, what it doesn't really

813
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 4: change anything about the movie if she gives him credit

814
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 4: for that, and it doesn't change anything about the movie.

815
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 4: If it is like motormouth Maybell's idea to March and

816
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 4: not Tracy's so and I also is interested in this

817
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 4: same Atlantic piece. It gives the context of when the

818
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 4: music when the Broadway musical came out, it came out

819
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 4: really shortly after nine to eleven. I know, Shrek nine

820
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 4: to eleven, Hairspray the musical was the sequence of events,

821
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 4: and that, I guess wasn't surprising to me because I

822
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 4: feel like there's so much post nine to eleven media

823
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 4: that was very escapist and in some ways, and I

824
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 4: guess I don't mean this as good or bad, but

825
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,720
Speaker 4: like revisionist and like we need to all come together,

826
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 4: and yeah, I feel like Hairspray's like very squarely that

827
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 4: the musical at least is very squarely in there. I

828
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 4: guess my main thing is I wish we knew more

829
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 4: about the black characters in the story and that they

830
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 4: were actually written, because it's like, we certainly have this

831
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 4: space for it, especially because you have Queen Latifah. Why

832
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 4: would you not give her character a backstory outside of

833
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 4: like a couple of lines. I mean the same with Seaweed,

834
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 4: where Seaweed is on screen pretty frequently, but we don't

835
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 4: really know much about him outside of that he loves

836
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 4: being on the show and that he's falling in love

837
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 4: with Penny. You don't get much. I mean, I don't know. Yeah,

838
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,959
Speaker 4: I feel like there was definitely space, and I wonder

839
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 4: if it exists in the musical and wast cut for

840
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 4: the movie. I don't know. I haven't seen the musical.

841
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 4: I would like to, but I wonder if there are

842
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 4: scenes where you see like Inez and Maybell and Seaweed

843
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 4: at home, the way that you see all the white

844
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 4: characters at home, including Penny.

845
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 5: I was gonna say, we learned so much about Amber.

846
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, we learn about Amber, we learn about Penny.

847
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 4: There's a whole song about Velma's teenage years, like.

848
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 2: Baltimore Crabs are like, yeah, why do we have that?

849
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 2: But not get any scenes where we see this family

850
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 2: at home. Also, think about how much more cathartic it

851
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 2: would be when Inez wins Miss teen Hairspray if we

852
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 2: knew anything about her.

853
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, right, Because even when we see her in that

854
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 5: little bit where Seaweed is singing run till that, all

855
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 5: he says is like, you know you're up next, your

856
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 5: time is coming, But we don't really know what she's

857
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 5: after at any point after that, or like you know,

858
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 5: like she winn which is great, but it's like, who

859
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 5: who are they outside of their connection to Tracy? I

860
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 5: would love I agree, I would love to know. Although

861
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,720
Speaker 5: they did use them with people correctly and by finally

862
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 5: giving our a song, that would have been a crime.

863
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:24,399
Speaker 5: I had she done a whole movie with no sing,

864
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 5: I would have been like, absolutely not. But you know,

865
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 5: aside from her secret toward love affair with twenty Pollins,

866
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,840
Speaker 5: she you know, I wanted more. I wanted to know

867
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 5: more about her and and sort of how how she's

868
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,839
Speaker 5: raising these two kids in this time frame of Baltimore.

869
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, because I did. I mean, and I found

870
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 4: that to be true in the original movie as well,

871
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:50,879
Speaker 4: where like you were saying earlier kid like I think

872
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 4: it's or Kaylie, did you say I don't remember? My

873
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 4: brain no longer works that? Like John Waters was a

874
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:02,319
Speaker 4: director who wanted to his center issues like racism and

875
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 4: like homophobia in his work at a time where not

876
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 4: a lot of directors were wanting to do that and

877
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 4: certainly not wanting to do that in a way that

878
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 4: had any like nuance or like it wasn't really steeped

879
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 4: in trauma. And that's like part of what's amazing about

880
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:22,359
Speaker 4: him but it's like, but if that is something you're

881
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 4: committed to doing, you have to like write the characters

882
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,399
Speaker 4: right or it's gonna ring a little bit hollow for sure.

883
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:33,319
Speaker 5: Also, having seen cry Baby, which is one of the

884
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 5: wildest movies I've ever se.

885
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 2: I barely remember it, I think it's like.

886
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 5: In some ways his Hairspray makes sense after you watch Crybaby,

887
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 5: because it's like it's sort of dry and weird and

888
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 5: it doesn't exactly make sense in a way, So like

889
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:56,839
Speaker 5: maybe that's his vibe. Like I think with this one,

890
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,959
Speaker 5: with the two thousand and seven one, they had ample opper,

891
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 5: you need to make these things make sense, right, and

892
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 5: some of them, some of them they did, but most

893
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 5: of them it was just sort of like, nah, it's good.

894
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 5: We don't gotta you know, we don't gotta really focus

895
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:13,919
Speaker 5: on that. Yeah, what do you mean they have thoughts

896
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 5: and ideas outside of like Tracy hoping.

897
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 4: That no movie would have happened. Uh, yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

898
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 4: I think it's so funny because this movie, like obviously

899
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:30,080
Speaker 4: it's based on John Water's work, but it is so

900
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 4: sincere that it's sometimes you're like, oh, yeah, this was

901
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 4: at one point a John Waters movie because it just

902
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 4: feels like antithetical to how like his vibe where it's

903
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 4: funny but it doesn't have the same sense of humor.

904
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 2: You would never guess that, like Pink Flamingos and the

905
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,400
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven Hairspray came from the mind of

906
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:50,280
Speaker 2: the same person.

907
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, well because also he he I don't think wrote

908
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 4: the book of the music.

909
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 2: Awe, no, no no, So yeah it was so he

910
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 2: wrote and directed the original film from eighty eight the

911
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 2: Broadway musical adaptation book written by Mark O'Donnell and Thomas

912
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 2: Mean Song lyrics by Mark Shaman and Scott Whitman. If

913
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 2: you're wondering if those are all white men, yes, they

914
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 2: sure are. And then the two thousand and seven screenplay

915
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 2: was written by Leslie Dixon, a white woman, and directed

916
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 2: by Adam Shankman, a white man.

917
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 5: So we also directed A Lock to Remember, he sure

918
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 5: to add, which is my favorite movie in the whole

919
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:37,400
Speaker 5: entire world. Sorry, I just had this.

920
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, well it really is a singing episode.

921
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 5: Yeah.

922
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 4: I like Adam Shankman, you know, missus the mark on

923
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 4: a lot of the themes in this movie. But boy,

924
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 4: can that guy direct a movie that I will watch

925
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 4: the fuck out of, Like.

926
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, because did the step with some of the step

927
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:01,840
Speaker 5: up movies.

928
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:05,919
Speaker 4: He directed The Wedding Planner I walked remember, bringing down

929
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 4: the House. So he's Queen Latifa Cannon the Pacifier. Yep,

930
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 4: that is Dwayne the Rock Johnson's babysitter movie Cheaper by

931
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:21,319
Speaker 4: the Dozen, two Hairspray. Oh, and he did direct What

932
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 4: Men Want Alright, alright, oops, all right, and then he

933
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:30,359
Speaker 4: directed the Enchanted sequel I didn't watch. I like him.

934
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 5: He's got some hits on his some banger, it's true.

935
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:41,240
Speaker 4: Also, fun fact about Adam Shakeman, I mean he's he's

936
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:43,759
Speaker 4: I think we talked about this probably on the Walk

937
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 4: to Remember episode, but he's or maybe the Wedding Planner episode.

938
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 4: He's a queer director. He's been out for a long time.

939
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 4: But that's not the fun fact I wanted to share.

940
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 4: The fun fact I wanted to share is that he

941
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 4: officiated the wedding of Freddie Prince Junior and Sarah Michelle Geller. Why.

942
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 4: I don't know.

943
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 5: Wait, I think then they do. Does he have anything

944
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 5: to do with that?

945
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 4: Or let me see, where As I think maybe he

946
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:14,240
Speaker 4: directed Buffy episodes No, he didn't.

947
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 5: There's something there. I don't know if it's with Freddy

948
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 5: or but I'm like, why I remember some sort of something.

949
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 4: Oh, he was okay, keeping with the they are all

950
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 4: wait is Rob Marshall because he directed Chicago and he

951
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:35,319
Speaker 4: just directed the new Little Mermaid movie. Anyways, Uh, they

952
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 4: are all white guys, but they're three queer directors who

953
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 4: started as choreographers and then became directors of movie musicals.

954
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:46,280
Speaker 4: Adam Shankman, Kenny Ortega, and Rob Marshall.

955
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:47,800
Speaker 2: What a pipeline.

956
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 5: Shout out to Kenny. I'm sorry, but he also has hits.

957
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 4: He god, he really like doesn't have missus that I know, like.

958
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:02,720
Speaker 5: Right shots and Julie and the phantoms that got canceled

959
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:03,360
Speaker 5: too early on that.

960
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 4: So Good, So Good, Gone too soon. We're gonna be

961
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 4: talking about that on the Newsy's episode because that was

962
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:11,880
Speaker 4: the first movie he ever directed. But yeah, it is

963
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 4: shocking to me how Kenny Ortega, like, his movies are

964
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 4: very rarely received well in their time. But the age

965
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 4: like a fine wine.

966
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 5: They're all perfect, people who know and people who have taste,

967
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:28,360
Speaker 5: you know.

968
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 4: Anyways, that's I guess. Now we've talked about Adam Shankman.

969
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 4: But to go back to the whiteness of this movie,

970
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 4: it's just like it doesn't seem like there was anyone

971
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:44,440
Speaker 4: in the room who wasn't white. To draw attention to

972
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 4: issues that in twenty twenty three seem very obvious and

973
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 4: very fixable.

974
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 2: Yes, can we talk about the movies examination of fatness

975
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:05,080
Speaker 2: and like how society and beauty standards perceive fatness and

976
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 2: like the movies handling of all of that, Yes.

977
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think I think the movies handling

978
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 5: of fatness, aside from Tracy and Motorvel Maybell like and

979
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 5: how they feel about themselves, is like fatness is equitable

980
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 5: in this movie to like the most disgusting possible thing

981
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:31,600
Speaker 5: you could ever be, And I find that to be

982
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 5: really annoying. But also like it's interesting because it's like,

983
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 5: we don't see a lot of fat people in this movie, right,

984
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 5: It's just Tracy and Motival, Mabel and John Travolta as

985
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 5: the mom. But it's like everybody everybody around them is

986
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 5: either average size or skinny. But yet fatness is it

987
00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 5: still seemed like this like epidemic that we can't possibly

988
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 5: allow to what is way do people use all the

989
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:04,479
Speaker 5: time now when they're like glorify Yeah, And I find

990
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 5: that to be really intriguing considering the majority of the

991
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 5: cast and the characters in this movie are nowhere near fat, right,

992
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 5: it's just the three of them, and it's still just

993
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:19,520
Speaker 5: like fatness is running rampant.

994
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:24,919
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like you said, it kind of conflates people being

995
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 2: prejudiced against fat people with racism.

996
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, which that was a big element of the

997
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:35,840
Speaker 4: twenty sixteen discourse as well, of just like these are

998
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 4: not the same struggle. They're both struggles, but putting them

999
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 4: on the same no sense.

1000
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:48,440
Speaker 5: Like the man Hunt for True, the man Hunt for Tracy, Sorry,

1001
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 5: it just makes you laugh. The man Hunt for Tracy,

1002
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:54,840
Speaker 5: for the sound thing is so coded in her being

1003
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 5: fat that like by the time that the police are

1004
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:00,160
Speaker 5: out search of her and they carry her inside in

1005
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 5: the spray can, it's like or the hairspray can, it's

1006
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:06,600
Speaker 5: it's sort of like, oh no. Then we have the

1007
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 5: police inside and they want to go stop the black

1008
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 5: people from being on the stage, and the almost like

1009
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 5: wait till commercial and it's like, why is there a

1010
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 5: connection there? I think that it's so wild to me.

1011
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:19,040
Speaker 5: It's like, oh no, we've got a way to commercial

1012
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:21,240
Speaker 5: for the black people get off the stage, and oh,

1013
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 5: we have to stop traicing because she's changing the minds

1014
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 5: of Baltimore and they're they're somehow connected because she suffers too,

1015
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 5: and it's like.

1016
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:33,440
Speaker 4: It's not right, No, it's just like so it's I

1017
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 4: don't know, like it's almost funny because it's so I

1018
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 4: think it's so sincerely felt that you're just like, yeah,

1019
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:42,760
Speaker 4: what do you think you're saying here? It's so confusing,

1020
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:46,160
Speaker 4: and that does also kind of ring very like Post

1021
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:50,280
Speaker 4: nine to eleven trying to say something but is made

1022
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 4: by a whole pile of white guys and is not

1023
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 4: really like saying what it thinks. It is kind of

1024
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 4: stuff where it's it's just like flattening the concept of

1025
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 4: struggle in America and there's like a prescriptive solution and

1026
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:07,439
Speaker 4: that is being allowed to be on the Corny Collins Show.

1027
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 5: Like it's just like, no, it's very we all bleed.

1028
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:14,840
Speaker 4: Red, yes, yes, yes, yeah, very much.

1029
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 5: Like oh, guys, I don't care if you're red, green, blue, whatever,

1030
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 5: you know, we all struggle.

1031
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, like Clinton, yeah right. The thing that I was

1032
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:33,120
Speaker 4: most frustrated with with this movie specifically is that John

1033
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 4: Travolta is in a fat suit that I feel like

1034
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 4: that just like undercuts so much.

1035
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:41,960
Speaker 2: Definitely, Yeah, like it.

1036
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 4: It just undercuts a lot because in the original Divine

1037
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:49,520
Speaker 4: plays Edna and plays like a It's I think it

1038
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:52,160
Speaker 4: is interesting that the character of Edna is adjusted between

1039
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:54,600
Speaker 4: the original movie, and also I guess from the musical

1040
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:57,959
Speaker 4: to be more introverted and be more shy. I don't

1041
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:00,680
Speaker 4: hate that decision, but that was a of us made.

1042
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 4: But in the original Divine is fat and not like

1043
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:10,920
Speaker 4: wearing these really distracting prosthetics that I've seen people in

1044
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 4: recent years, you know, reclaim John Travolta's performance and like,

1045
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 4: you know whatever, if you love it, you love it.

1046
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 4: But yeah, I think especially because fat suits on big

1047
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 4: time celebrities. That was literally a huge topic of discussion

1048
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 4: less than six months ago when Brendan Fraser won the

1049
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:34,440
Speaker 4: Oscar for the Whale, And like, so I feel like

1050
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:39,120
Speaker 4: that undercut any Like like the attempts and I think

1051
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 4: some of the attempts to talk about fatness in this

1052
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:45,880
Speaker 4: movie are successful, but like the John Travolta fat suit,

1053
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:47,400
Speaker 4: I'm just like, what are we doing here?

1054
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:50,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, like you said, it undercuts a lot because it

1055
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 2: is rare for a movie to have a fat character

1056
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 2: at all, let alone a fat protagonist. It's even rarer

1057
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 2: for a story with a fat protagonist to be about

1058
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 2: something besides the character's size, And in this movie, like

1059
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 2: her size plays a part in the narrative, but it's

1060
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 2: not what the story is about. It's you know, her

1061
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:19,720
Speaker 2: goal is to be a dancer. It's not to lose

1062
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 2: weight or to find the confidence to be a dancer

1063
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:26,560
Speaker 2: despite her size anything like that. Because another rare thing

1064
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:30,240
Speaker 2: is for a movie to portray a fat character who

1065
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 2: is confident in herself. It's also a rare example of

1066
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:40,920
Speaker 2: a movie showing a fat character doing something physical like dancing.

1067
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 2: A lot of movies with fat characters rely on stereotypes

1068
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:48,439
Speaker 2: of like, oh, the only thing the fat character does

1069
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:50,720
Speaker 2: is sit down and eat food.

1070
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 5: Stuff like that, and she's always alone, like like whoever

1071
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:56,600
Speaker 5: it is, they never end up with some with a

1072
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 5: romantic partner.

1073
01:03:58,080 --> 01:04:01,320
Speaker 2: Either, exactly, Like, it's rare to see a fat character

1074
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 2: be romantically desired by another character period, especially one who

1075
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 2: is thin and who is like very traditionally attractive, such

1076
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:15,040
Speaker 2: as someone played by Zac Efron. So you have these

1077
01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:18,840
Speaker 2: things that most movies refuse to do. But then it

1078
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:22,440
Speaker 2: also turns around and again puts John Travolta in a

1079
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:27,480
Speaker 2: fat suit. It has that character Edna eats when she's upset,

1080
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:31,520
Speaker 2: people use food to convince her to stay at a party,

1081
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 2: So it's still relying on stereotypes for that character. But

1082
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:39,439
Speaker 2: I guess I'm just saying, like, it's not all bad

1083
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 2: with at least with Tracy, but it fumbles a lot

1084
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 2: of other things.

1085
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, because you don't really see her come out of

1086
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:52,080
Speaker 5: her shell or like anything remotely into the very last

1087
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:56,680
Speaker 5: scene when she goes on stage to sing. I do

1088
01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:00,600
Speaker 5: think it's really interesting though, because maybe I'm wrong because

1089
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:04,760
Speaker 5: I've never seen the musical. But like Motor Belt, Maybelle

1090
01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:07,320
Speaker 5: was not. She was not in the movie. Was she

1091
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:09,280
Speaker 5: in the nineteen Year She was?

1092
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:11,440
Speaker 4: But it's like she's a much smaller character.

1093
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:15,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, Okay, So I think I think the addition of

1094
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 5: like making a slightly bigger character made sense because then

1095
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 5: it's like you get to see she doesn't have the

1096
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:25,320
Speaker 5: same even though her and Edna are supposed to be

1097
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:28,120
Speaker 5: like close in age, I assume she doesn't have the

1098
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:31,880
Speaker 5: same hang ups about her body. True and what it

1099
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:35,920
Speaker 5: means and why that matters as Edna does. And so

1100
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 5: that's what I really appreciated. I started, you mentioned Caman

1101
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:42,680
Speaker 5: about how she uses food to make Edna's stay. She's like,

1102
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 5: we got a whole feast, like I'm gonna eat. Yeah,

1103
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 5: So like if you're like, if you want to stay

1104
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:49,919
Speaker 5: and you want to eat, that's great. But I think

1105
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:53,440
Speaker 5: I think honestly though they had to because it's Cleanlatifa,

1106
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 5: like you can't just like she's not gonna be like,

1107
01:05:56,200 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 5: you know, a small role in general, but I think

1108
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:02,360
Speaker 5: that one thing right that's not like that's one of

1109
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:04,959
Speaker 5: the things that I deeply enjoyed it as a movie

1110
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:06,800
Speaker 5: as well as like, even though we did not get

1111
01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 5: what I think is great characterization of the black characters

1112
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:13,880
Speaker 5: in the movie, the addition of her that that made

1113
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 5: her a bigger character in it was.

1114
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:18,600
Speaker 2: For the better for sure.

1115
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:22,560
Speaker 4: I did like that Edna, I guess, like because yeah,

1116
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 4: I think all the tropes that we've we've already talked

1117
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:29,720
Speaker 4: about are very present. But I did like and feel

1118
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 4: like there was some value in like Edna seeing other

1119
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:37,400
Speaker 4: women in her life, including her own daughter, like loving

1120
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:42,480
Speaker 4: themselves and being happy and taking. I feel like it

1121
01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 4: was like realistic that it took her a while to

1122
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 4: internalize that, and I love that, Like it's it's part

1123
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:51,840
Speaker 4: of the like very happy, wonderful ending of this movie

1124
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:56,480
Speaker 4: that she accepts herself, and it's I don't know, I

1125
01:06:56,520 --> 01:06:58,640
Speaker 4: think that there's a lot of ways to get there,

1126
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:02,600
Speaker 4: but I think realizing that, like she is loved and

1127
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:06,760
Speaker 4: accepted by her own daughter, there is I guess in

1128
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:11,960
Speaker 4: this Baltimore, there are more options for her to like

1129
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:14,840
Speaker 4: wear clothes that she's comfortable in that she doesn't know exists.

1130
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:19,120
Speaker 4: There's like ways for her to ease into like a

1131
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:22,200
Speaker 4: better relationship with her own body. And I like that

1132
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:25,360
Speaker 4: that's it's like a really fun, I think fantasy thing

1133
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:30,040
Speaker 4: to like see that she like her her daughter helps

1134
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:34,680
Speaker 4: her realize that. And also it felt pretty authentic that

1135
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:40,480
Speaker 4: like Edna is judging her own daughter's body towards the

1136
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:43,040
Speaker 4: beginning of the movie and saying like, well, you shouldn't

1137
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:45,720
Speaker 4: you know, you shouldn't audition for Corney Collins because they're

1138
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:48,280
Speaker 4: going to laugh at your body. In like a way

1139
01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:50,520
Speaker 4: that it's like she's trying to protect her from what

1140
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:54,560
Speaker 4: she's afraid of happening to her right, it's for a

1141
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:59,960
Speaker 4: movie that like doesn't do complex like super well, I've

1142
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:03,440
Speaker 4: like this that relationship really, I mean it like definitely

1143
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:05,479
Speaker 4: for me where I feel like that. There's a lot

1144
01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 4: of parents, but I mean I think very often mothers

1145
01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 4: who project the body issues that they have with themselves

1146
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:17,240
Speaker 4: onto their kids in presenting it like I'm just trying

1147
01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:21,760
Speaker 4: to help you, and I like that. Tracy rejects that

1148
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:25,240
Speaker 4: and instead of I mean, there is definitely a version

1149
01:08:25,280 --> 01:08:27,920
Speaker 4: of this story that isn't as fun where she's like, no,

1150
01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 4: fuck you, mom, like but because Tracy is Tracy, she's like, no,

1151
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:36,559
Speaker 4: I feel like I'm good with myself and like I

1152
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:39,040
Speaker 4: want that for you too, and let's sing a song

1153
01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:39,479
Speaker 4: about it.

1154
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:42,560
Speaker 5: You know what else I appreciate, which I don't know

1155
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:45,639
Speaker 5: if when you touched on earlier, it's like Wilber loved

1156
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:49,519
Speaker 5: her the entire time, the entire time, but like even

1157
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:53,280
Speaker 5: that wasn't enough. It's like she had to go and

1158
01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:55,840
Speaker 5: figure out for herself how to love herself. She couldn't

1159
01:08:55,880 --> 01:08:59,680
Speaker 5: put her hopes and dreams and whatever. I'm like, I

1160
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:02,320
Speaker 5: got your dad love me, so it's lit. She was

1161
01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:05,400
Speaker 5: just like, yeah, you love me whatever, But like I'm

1162
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:07,920
Speaker 5: not comfortable with me until she was yeah, which I

1163
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:12,960
Speaker 5: appreciate because oftentimes it's like, especially with marginalized people in general,

1164
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:15,720
Speaker 5: it's like, oh, if you can get one person to love,

1165
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:18,040
Speaker 5: you hold on to that person and never let them

1166
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:21,400
Speaker 5: go because that's the only option you got. Whereas they've

1167
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:23,960
Speaker 5: been happily married. But she was still unhappy, and so

1168
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:26,679
Speaker 5: it's showcased that like, oh no, I need to find

1169
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 5: it within myself and not place it in another person.

1170
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:34,679
Speaker 5: Which is also a fantastic message for Tracy because even

1171
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:37,640
Speaker 5: though she was like, I'm trying to get in Laney's pants, okay,

1172
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:40,880
Speaker 5: she still didn't. She was like, I try to get

1173
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:41,559
Speaker 5: dick down.

1174
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:44,639
Speaker 2: She is not shy about saying it too. Her song

1175
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:46,679
Speaker 2: is so horny about him.

1176
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:49,840
Speaker 5: It's so horny, especially when she says like she won't

1177
01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:51,559
Speaker 5: go all the way, but she'll go pretty far.

1178
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:53,720
Speaker 4: Oh I love suck up.

1179
01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:58,840
Speaker 5: So like I think it's even though she's very horny

1180
01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:02,720
Speaker 5: for Link, it's like she did not base her happiness

1181
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,640
Speaker 5: on whether or not they got together. She based her

1182
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:08,519
Speaker 5: happiness on being able to achieve her a dream of

1183
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:09,479
Speaker 5: being a dancer.

1184
01:10:09,680 --> 01:10:14,360
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, I and the same kind of goes for

1185
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:17,960
Speaker 4: I don't know, like where. There's a lot of like

1186
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:21,560
Speaker 4: women perceiving other women's bodies in this movie, which I

1187
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:24,280
Speaker 4: always think is interesting. It's really easy to fuck up,

1188
01:10:25,240 --> 01:10:28,160
Speaker 4: but I just want to say it's interesting because you

1189
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:34,080
Speaker 4: also get like in the Wilbur and Edna story, miss

1190
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:39,640
Speaker 4: Baltimore crabs making the assumption that Wilbert is not attracted

1191
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:41,800
Speaker 4: to his own to his wife.

1192
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:43,880
Speaker 5: His wife his wife.

1193
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:48,680
Speaker 4: And being wrong about that, and being like made a

1194
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:52,799
Speaker 4: fool of for making that assumption.

1195
01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:57,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, she goes in and is like, I'm Michelle Pfeiffer,

1196
01:10:57,600 --> 01:10:59,840
Speaker 2: Christopher Watkins's gonna want to smooch on me.

1197
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:01,880
Speaker 4: And You're like, well, she does have a point. She

1198
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:04,000
Speaker 4: is Michelle fIF she is.

1199
01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:08,479
Speaker 2: But he's like, no, I would rather just sell you awesome,

1200
01:11:09,120 --> 01:11:13,080
Speaker 2: like whoop exactly such a due I might rubber chicken,

1201
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:14,280
Speaker 2: et cetera.

1202
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:19,519
Speaker 4: I love Christopher Walking joke shop owner. Yeah, now should

1203
01:11:19,560 --> 01:11:21,400
Speaker 4: he let us know what happened on that boat with

1204
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:23,920
Speaker 4: Natalie Woods show? And I have to bring it up

1205
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:25,759
Speaker 4: every time we cover a Christopher Walking movie.

1206
01:11:26,439 --> 01:11:29,200
Speaker 5: I would like to also know. Also, one of the

1207
01:11:29,240 --> 01:11:34,719
Speaker 5: funniest lies in the movie is when Britney snow calls

1208
01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:39,679
Speaker 5: u Na and she and she's like, She's like, who

1209
01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:41,800
Speaker 5: is this And she's like Mike. He's like Mike, who

1210
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:45,000
Speaker 5: I don't know Mike. And then and then she's like

1211
01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:48,240
Speaker 5: where she said, where is Tracy? And she goes, I

1212
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:51,680
Speaker 5: don't know, she's no. I don't know who she was

1213
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:53,880
Speaker 5: asking for. Maybe it was her mom. She was like,

1214
01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:58,160
Speaker 5: I don't know. He's with those, he's with that, He's

1215
01:11:58,160 --> 01:12:01,400
Speaker 5: with that great white wheel and those blue grow It

1216
01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:04,880
Speaker 5: is like the way that I say that is like

1217
01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:09,919
Speaker 5: in my daily life, at least once every every two weeks,

1218
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:13,040
Speaker 5: just randomly, I'll be like, he's with those, He's with

1219
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:16,400
Speaker 5: that great white all those new gros. But to myself

1220
01:12:16,439 --> 01:12:20,080
Speaker 5: out loud, I don't know. It's definitely mean.

1221
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:23,639
Speaker 4: It's so plays a good village. She does, she does,

1222
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:26,080
Speaker 4: she does, Where is she? Where is she at now?

1223
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:27,760
Speaker 2: What she is she doing?

1224
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:31,679
Speaker 5: I think she just finished an indie movie or TV

1225
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:32,479
Speaker 5: show or something.

1226
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:36,680
Speaker 4: She's also in the Pacifier. Adam Shankman loves her.

1227
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:41,160
Speaker 5: Who knew the Pacifier is an American classic?

1228
01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:44,639
Speaker 4: Shout It's true, It's true. Oh yeah, it's the Vin

1229
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:47,040
Speaker 4: Diesel babysitter in a movie. Not the Rock and babisit

1230
01:12:47,040 --> 01:12:50,000
Speaker 4: a movie that's the truth fairy, the Truth Fairy.

1231
01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:54,799
Speaker 2: Yes, And then isn't there a John Cena babysitter movie? Also?

1232
01:12:55,160 --> 01:12:57,599
Speaker 2: Or like he's a fireman and then some kids show

1233
01:12:57,680 --> 01:12:58,600
Speaker 2: up at the firehouse.

1234
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:02,719
Speaker 4: Why do people love in a beefcake babysits in a movie?

1235
01:13:02,880 --> 01:13:08,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean he technically babysits Vin Diesel's kid in

1236
01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:09,280
Speaker 5: The New Fast.

1237
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:17,960
Speaker 2: You're not an American classes perfect film. No notes. Speaking

1238
01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:21,840
Speaker 2: of actors, Nicki Blonsky, as we've said, does an incredible

1239
01:13:21,960 --> 01:13:27,880
Speaker 2: job in this movie, but despite that, she never became

1240
01:13:28,280 --> 01:13:32,040
Speaker 2: a big star, which is just indicative of the way

1241
01:13:32,360 --> 01:13:36,680
Speaker 2: Hollywood tends to treat fat actors because it just refuses

1242
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:41,400
Speaker 2: to cast fat actors in most roles. And I was

1243
01:13:41,439 --> 01:13:45,280
Speaker 2: looking at her I AMDB, and one of the things

1244
01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:48,760
Speaker 2: that she's known for aside from this movie is she

1245
01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:51,680
Speaker 2: is a lead or one of the leads in a

1246
01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:53,679
Speaker 2: show called Huge.

1247
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:56,560
Speaker 4: So I wanted to Yeah, I wanted to bring that

1248
01:13:56,640 --> 01:13:59,519
Speaker 4: up because it because I was on the Nicky Blonsky train.

1249
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:03,040
Speaker 4: It sounds like you were as well. And I remember

1250
01:14:03,360 --> 01:14:09,960
Speaker 4: most of her roles after Harrispray, a movie that she

1251
01:14:10,040 --> 01:14:13,400
Speaker 4: plays Tracy Turnblad a like woman who is comfortable in

1252
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:18,200
Speaker 4: her own skin, and then her her roles after that

1253
01:14:18,280 --> 01:14:20,920
Speaker 4: for the next couple of years were mostly defined by

1254
01:14:21,640 --> 01:14:25,280
Speaker 4: what she looked like and also around shame, because I

1255
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:30,280
Speaker 4: remember Huge. I also remember, if I'm remembering correctly, Queen Sized,

1256
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:34,000
Speaker 4: which was a Lifetime movie about a fat prom queen,

1257
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:38,479
Speaker 4: and so there there was definitely like it seemed like

1258
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:41,760
Speaker 4: very and I honestly didn't did you did you ever

1259
01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:44,680
Speaker 4: watch Huge? I never watched it? I did, Yeah, what

1260
01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:45,280
Speaker 4: did you think?

1261
01:14:46,439 --> 01:14:52,320
Speaker 5: It was basically like a TV show about a fat

1262
01:14:52,360 --> 01:14:58,880
Speaker 5: camp and her character struggled so much with like feeling

1263
01:14:59,439 --> 01:15:02,840
Speaker 5: worth worthy, and she was like desperate to lose weight,

1264
01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:06,639
Speaker 5: and there was this really melo dramatic storyline about how

1265
01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:09,160
Speaker 5: some of the campers had like eating disorders and like

1266
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:11,679
Speaker 5: they were desperate to lose weight. And I just remember

1267
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:15,280
Speaker 5: being like, this is such a far cry from Hairspurd

1268
01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:19,519
Speaker 5: and like that happens. But I truly believed that, like

1269
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:23,200
Speaker 5: all of her missteps as an adult human being aside,

1270
01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:28,599
Speaker 5: Nikki Bonski really is a casualty of the time, because

1271
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:32,280
Speaker 5: that movie should have catapulted her. Yeah, like it really

1272
01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:36,040
Speaker 5: should have shot her to an actual trajectory and now

1273
01:15:36,040 --> 01:15:39,080
Speaker 5: people make fun of her because she had that racist incident.

1274
01:15:39,160 --> 01:15:40,280
Speaker 5: I think it was got airport.

1275
01:15:40,479 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 4: Yes, So that was the other thing I remembered that

1276
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:46,960
Speaker 4: I was like, Okay, I yeah, I totally agreed Kia,

1277
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:50,920
Speaker 4: that she was absolutely a casualty of attitudes towards fat

1278
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:53,640
Speaker 4: women when like, because we just like grew up at

1279
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:54,439
Speaker 4: such a horrible time.

1280
01:15:55,000 --> 01:15:56,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was wrong.

1281
01:15:56,520 --> 01:15:59,360
Speaker 4: But there was also because I when I was prepping

1282
01:15:59,400 --> 01:16:01,760
Speaker 4: for this, I was like, oh, I remember that it

1283
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:05,680
Speaker 4: was like she and her family got into like a

1284
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:10,800
Speaker 4: racist fight at the airport in like Turks and Caicos.

1285
01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:14,880
Speaker 5: It was like it was deeply racist tirade. Her and

1286
01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:17,560
Speaker 5: her mom went on to these other black people and

1287
01:16:17,840 --> 01:16:20,080
Speaker 5: everybody was just like, wait, what hairspray?

1288
01:16:21,680 --> 01:16:25,160
Speaker 4: Right, what's happening the girl who started the movie about

1289
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:29,120
Speaker 4: curing racism? Like it just because and it was also

1290
01:16:29,160 --> 01:16:33,160
Speaker 4: the woman or it was like two families, but like

1291
01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:38,080
Speaker 4: it was America's next top model contestant that they got

1292
01:16:38,120 --> 01:16:42,519
Speaker 4: into a fight with. It really sent me back to

1293
01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:45,240
Speaker 4: and and of course, like I was going back through

1294
01:16:45,320 --> 01:16:48,840
Speaker 4: the like tabloid coverage of this from two thousand and

1295
01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:54,280
Speaker 4: eight and it is pretty pro Blonski in terms of, like, well,

1296
01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:56,160
Speaker 4: this was just being blown out of proportion. A lot

1297
01:16:56,160 --> 01:16:59,120
Speaker 4: of the context of what prompted the fight is not

1298
01:16:59,320 --> 01:17:03,959
Speaker 4: include and so it is like, I mean, there's certainly

1299
01:17:04,160 --> 01:17:06,920
Speaker 4: like more shades of gray here. But yeah, as far

1300
01:17:06,920 --> 01:17:11,559
Speaker 4: as her her career went, it was mostly roles that

1301
01:17:11,640 --> 01:17:17,240
Speaker 4: were defined by her body and then not as much.

1302
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:19,920
Speaker 4: I was kind of interested because she she didn't do

1303
01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:22,960
Speaker 4: interviews for a long time, and I have a guess

1304
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:27,280
Speaker 4: as to why. But when she did start doing interviews

1305
01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:29,920
Speaker 4: again is in twenty twenty, because she came out but

1306
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:34,200
Speaker 4: never really spoke to the kinds of role she was offered,

1307
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:36,559
Speaker 4: So I don't have her opinion of that.

1308
01:17:37,240 --> 01:17:38,600
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, she.

1309
01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:42,800
Speaker 5: Has a cameo too. I booked a cameo for my

1310
01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:46,479
Speaker 5: friend because she likes this baseball player guy, and I

1311
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:49,200
Speaker 5: saw her on a little thing. She has, like cameo

1312
01:17:49,360 --> 01:17:53,719
Speaker 5: interesting and she wishes people like happy graduations from Nikki

1313
01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:58,439
Speaker 5: Bonski of hairs gray, like she's you know, that's her rug,

1314
01:17:58,840 --> 01:18:01,919
Speaker 5: which is great. Oh my god, I realized it's crigma

1315
01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:04,479
Speaker 5: that I'm out here talking about a straight couple.

1316
01:18:06,600 --> 01:18:07,280
Speaker 4: How dare you?

1317
01:18:07,920 --> 01:18:09,960
Speaker 5: I was like, Oh my god, guys, I am a

1318
01:18:10,200 --> 01:18:13,920
Speaker 5: I am a distress. So bisexuals everywhere. But in my defense,

1319
01:18:14,439 --> 01:18:16,120
Speaker 5: I was like, you know what, they would have a

1320
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:19,120
Speaker 5: third occasionally, they would have a third.

1321
01:18:19,840 --> 01:18:23,639
Speaker 2: Yeah. Corney Collins is polyamorous, and in addition to having

1322
01:18:23,640 --> 01:18:29,519
Speaker 2: a secret romance with Maybell, he also kisses who's another

1323
01:18:29,640 --> 01:18:33,759
Speaker 2: adult man in the movie besides christ Maybe he kisses

1324
01:18:33,840 --> 01:18:34,559
Speaker 2: Christopher Walking.

1325
01:18:34,640 --> 01:18:37,320
Speaker 4: I don't know, well, does I feel like Christopher Walking?

1326
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:40,759
Speaker 4: Like Wilbur's vibe is like open to a third for sure.

1327
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:44,000
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, Wilbur's vibe is very like down the clown,

1328
01:18:44,080 --> 01:18:44,280
Speaker 5: you know.

1329
01:18:44,840 --> 01:18:50,439
Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's literally a damn job. He's like, yeah,

1330
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:53,240
Speaker 4: let's have a third and let's all fucking the joke shop.

1331
01:18:53,560 --> 01:18:59,439
Speaker 3: Let's let's let's get weird, kinky.

1332
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:05,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Can we talk about John Travolta again, but in

1333
01:19:05,439 --> 01:19:12,200
Speaker 2: a different context. Yes, So a man playing a female character.

1334
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:18,840
Speaker 2: So obviously John Travolta plays Tracy's mom Edna. The precedent

1335
01:19:19,000 --> 01:19:24,160
Speaker 2: had been set for a man or mask presenting person

1336
01:19:24,280 --> 01:19:28,280
Speaker 2: to play this character in the eighty eight John Waters version, because,

1337
01:19:28,280 --> 01:19:33,479
Speaker 2: as we said, Divine plays that character. Divine was a

1338
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:38,800
Speaker 2: drag queen and a queer person, and not that you

1339
01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:42,479
Speaker 2: have to be those things to play a gender bending

1340
01:19:42,960 --> 01:19:47,519
Speaker 2: role like this, but it kind of makes more sense that,

1341
01:19:48,400 --> 01:19:50,479
Speaker 2: you know Divine was cast in that role, and it

1342
01:19:50,560 --> 01:19:52,559
Speaker 2: kind of begs the question, why would they have not

1343
01:19:52,760 --> 01:19:57,639
Speaker 2: cast another, you know, iconic drag performer to play Edna

1344
01:19:57,760 --> 01:20:01,200
Speaker 2: in this movie, because to my knowledge, which John Travalta

1345
01:20:01,320 --> 01:20:05,280
Speaker 2: is not a drag performer. Unless I'm missing something, I

1346
01:20:05,479 --> 01:20:10,759
Speaker 2: don't know who like originated the role in the Broadway musical.

1347
01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:13,919
Speaker 4: I was just trying to find out.

1348
01:20:14,479 --> 01:20:18,320
Speaker 2: In any case, I guess I have complicated feelings on

1349
01:20:19,360 --> 01:20:24,080
Speaker 2: like I don't mind gender bending roles like this. I

1350
01:20:24,120 --> 01:20:27,880
Speaker 2: don't mind when like a mask person plays a femme

1351
01:20:28,200 --> 01:20:32,519
Speaker 2: or vice versa, or you know, someone elsewhere on the

1352
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:36,960
Speaker 2: gender spectrum plays any kind of role. I think, honestly,

1353
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:39,120
Speaker 2: it would be cool if there was more gender bending

1354
01:20:39,200 --> 01:20:45,080
Speaker 2: casting in media, But there's very little parody because I

1355
01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:49,240
Speaker 2: can think of several examples of men playing characters who

1356
01:20:49,400 --> 01:20:53,960
Speaker 2: are women. You've got your like Louis Anderson in Baskets.

1357
01:20:54,000 --> 01:20:58,679
Speaker 2: You've got Tyler Perry as Media. You've got Martin Lawrence

1358
01:20:58,800 --> 01:21:03,280
Speaker 2: as Big Mama This House. You've got Eddie Murphy and

1359
01:21:03,360 --> 01:21:07,400
Speaker 2: several of his like whatever, clunk, clump, what are they?

1360
01:21:07,640 --> 01:21:11,720
Speaker 2: What anymumps? And I think other of his movies as well,

1361
01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:17,599
Speaker 2: Norbit Yes, yes, And a lot of those actors are

1362
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:21,839
Speaker 2: also in fat suits, which again we discussed is a big.

1363
01:21:22,240 --> 01:21:28,200
Speaker 4: Harvey Fierstein played Edna on Broadway and they okay, and

1364
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:31,800
Speaker 4: one of Tony Baby Interesting. Yeah, I have I have

1365
01:21:32,240 --> 01:21:34,960
Speaker 4: also complicated feelings towards that, but I feel like I

1366
01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:38,360
Speaker 4: don't know, I think I sort of landed on like

1367
01:21:39,120 --> 01:21:41,800
Speaker 4: I don't know, I don't know like it. I feel

1368
01:21:41,800 --> 01:21:45,439
Speaker 4: like the part is so it's such a divine part

1369
01:21:46,200 --> 01:21:49,920
Speaker 4: that whatever not gonna argue the thing divine did and

1370
01:21:50,040 --> 01:21:54,040
Speaker 4: hurt and in her entire life great. And I'm not

1371
01:21:54,120 --> 01:21:57,040
Speaker 4: opposed to actors in drag at all. I mean, I

1372
01:21:57,280 --> 01:21:59,200
Speaker 4: think it just has to do with how well written

1373
01:21:59,280 --> 01:22:02,640
Speaker 4: is the character, is character written as a punchline or

1374
01:22:03,080 --> 01:22:06,320
Speaker 4: I think it reminds me of this was in the

1375
01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:09,840
Speaker 4: last ten years. Keenan Thompson I said that he was

1376
01:22:09,880 --> 01:22:13,360
Speaker 4: no longer going to play drag roles on SNL because

1377
01:22:13,400 --> 01:22:16,000
Speaker 4: he felt that it was just because they hadn't cast

1378
01:22:16,040 --> 01:22:19,320
Speaker 4: a black woman on the show and that they were

1379
01:22:19,439 --> 01:22:23,240
Speaker 4: you know, using him in drag as an excuse like

1380
01:22:23,320 --> 01:22:25,400
Speaker 4: not to cast a black woman, which is a great

1381
01:22:25,439 --> 01:22:27,559
Speaker 4: reason not to do drag for sure. But I think

1382
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:30,439
Speaker 4: I don't know. I sort of landed on like I'm

1383
01:22:30,600 --> 01:22:32,920
Speaker 4: more upset about the fat suit. I think the fat

1384
01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:36,600
Speaker 4: suit fucking sucks. Yeah, And also I guess I just

1385
01:22:36,640 --> 01:22:39,760
Speaker 4: worry about like the slippery kind of slope that is

1386
01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:44,200
Speaker 4: presented there, because you know, John Travolta's sexuality has been

1387
01:22:44,240 --> 01:22:49,240
Speaker 4: speculated about for decades and it's none of our business,

1388
01:22:49,280 --> 01:22:53,000
Speaker 4: like how he identifies, and you know, it is our

1389
01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:57,320
Speaker 4: business that he's so high up in scientology, but as

1390
01:22:57,680 --> 01:23:01,800
Speaker 4: far as how he identifies, who gives a shit, I

1391
01:23:01,840 --> 01:23:04,160
Speaker 4: don't know. I mean, I guess my answer is I

1392
01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:07,360
Speaker 4: don't know. It doesn't bother me that Edna is a

1393
01:23:07,560 --> 01:23:12,080
Speaker 4: historically a drag role, because there are a ton of

1394
01:23:12,120 --> 01:23:16,400
Speaker 4: non drag rolls in this movie. It's not like the

1395
01:23:16,600 --> 01:23:18,880
Speaker 4: Keenan Thompson issue where it was like, well, we're gonna

1396
01:23:18,880 --> 01:23:23,639
Speaker 4: put a man in drag specifically because we don't want

1397
01:23:23,880 --> 01:23:27,120
Speaker 4: women around like it.

1398
01:23:27,080 --> 01:23:29,720
Speaker 2: Right, But a lot of movies would rather have a

1399
01:23:30,360 --> 01:23:33,400
Speaker 2: cis man in a fat suit play a fat woman

1400
01:23:33,680 --> 01:23:35,759
Speaker 2: than actually cast a fat woman.

1401
01:23:36,160 --> 01:23:37,599
Speaker 4: Absolutely.

1402
01:23:37,760 --> 01:23:41,360
Speaker 5: I think for me, I'm sort of in the same

1403
01:23:42,360 --> 01:23:45,719
Speaker 5: boat as Jamie where it's like I feel like, and again,

1404
01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:47,880
Speaker 5: not give a man too much, but I feel like

1405
01:23:48,600 --> 01:23:53,480
Speaker 5: John Travolta played and with a sense of like sincerity

1406
01:23:53,760 --> 01:23:55,519
Speaker 5: and it wasn't like she was the butt of a

1407
01:23:55,600 --> 01:23:58,880
Speaker 5: joke or that he didn't take it seriously. And I

1408
01:23:58,880 --> 01:24:02,880
Speaker 5: think that's what makes it better because I've always felt like,

1409
01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:05,439
Speaker 5: even in interviews that I watched, and I remember watching

1410
01:24:05,439 --> 01:24:08,920
Speaker 5: them on Oprah specifically about how he was just like,

1411
01:24:09,760 --> 01:24:12,200
Speaker 5: I didn't I was never going to play this like

1412
01:24:12,240 --> 01:24:14,679
Speaker 5: a joke because it's not a joke to me. Edna

1413
01:24:14,840 --> 01:24:16,519
Speaker 5: is a real person to me, and I'm going to

1414
01:24:16,560 --> 01:24:19,400
Speaker 5: treat her with the respect he deserves or something like that.

1415
01:24:19,400 --> 01:24:23,599
Speaker 5: I'm paraphrasing, but I think because I knew going into

1416
01:24:23,640 --> 01:24:27,800
Speaker 5: the movie that he seemed to take it seriously and

1417
01:24:27,880 --> 01:24:31,240
Speaker 5: didn't feel like he was just you know, pretending to

1418
01:24:31,240 --> 01:24:33,840
Speaker 5: be a woman putting on a show, I felt like

1419
01:24:33,920 --> 01:24:35,880
Speaker 5: I was like, oh, okay, I'm okay with him being

1420
01:24:36,479 --> 01:24:40,120
Speaker 5: Edna because at least he's not making her the butt

1421
01:24:40,160 --> 01:24:43,800
Speaker 5: of any jokes, Whereas like a lot of times and

1422
01:24:43,840 --> 01:24:46,879
Speaker 5: again I respect them as well, but like Eddie Murphy

1423
01:24:47,280 --> 01:24:50,920
Speaker 5: and Martin Lawrence and you know, all these other people,

1424
01:24:50,960 --> 01:24:54,040
Speaker 5: it's like the joke is that they're a man in

1425
01:24:54,080 --> 01:24:55,080
Speaker 5: a fat suit.

1426
01:24:54,960 --> 01:24:58,160
Speaker 2: Exactly, I mean pretending to be a woman, and like

1427
01:24:58,280 --> 01:24:59,240
Speaker 2: missus doubtfire.

1428
01:24:59,400 --> 01:25:02,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's why it's like, that's the joke, that's the bit,

1429
01:25:03,200 --> 01:25:06,720
Speaker 5: Whereas like in this movie, it's not inherently a bit.

1430
01:25:06,840 --> 01:25:09,400
Speaker 5: It's just this is the thing we understand and know.

1431
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:12,640
Speaker 5: But it's not like, oh, guys, haha, laugh at me

1432
01:25:13,360 --> 01:25:16,120
Speaker 5: because I'm John Travolta playing.

1433
01:25:15,800 --> 01:25:20,240
Speaker 2: A woman, right, because that is the the joke. A

1434
01:25:20,240 --> 01:25:23,439
Speaker 2: lot of the time, it's there's this kind of idea

1435
01:25:23,600 --> 01:25:28,439
Speaker 2: that a man playing a woman is inherently funny, and

1436
01:25:28,479 --> 01:25:31,280
Speaker 2: like part of the comedy of a lot of these

1437
01:25:31,320 --> 01:25:36,000
Speaker 2: movies I mentioned is that there's a man playing a

1438
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:40,760
Speaker 2: woman because it's funny when a man presents as feminine,

1439
01:25:40,800 --> 01:25:44,160
Speaker 2: like he's kind of being emasculated because he's wearing a dress,

1440
01:25:44,200 --> 01:25:46,400
Speaker 2: And isn't that hilarious, right?

1441
01:25:46,439 --> 01:25:49,280
Speaker 4: I think, yeah, Kia, you're like spot on that it

1442
01:25:49,400 --> 01:25:54,519
Speaker 4: like has everything to do with the actor's intent because

1443
01:25:54,520 --> 01:25:56,439
Speaker 4: you can feel, you know, in a lot of the

1444
01:25:56,520 --> 01:26:00,200
Speaker 4: roles we just discussed that, like fat women and men

1445
01:26:00,360 --> 01:26:03,160
Speaker 4: are the butt of the joke very very very much.

1446
01:26:03,200 --> 01:26:05,920
Speaker 4: So I think that, I mean, I think that the

1447
01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:08,559
Speaker 4: fat suit, the use of the fat suit like really

1448
01:26:08,640 --> 01:26:10,800
Speaker 4: complicated stuff, and I would say it's dated, except it

1449
01:26:10,880 --> 01:26:14,519
Speaker 4: still happens. But as far as as far as like

1450
01:26:14,680 --> 01:26:17,640
Speaker 4: John travolt does intent, that's really great to know, and

1451
01:26:17,680 --> 01:26:21,680
Speaker 4: I feel like that does come through in the performance.

1452
01:26:21,760 --> 01:26:24,640
Speaker 4: I think that the only thing that really sticks with

1453
01:26:24,720 --> 01:26:27,080
Speaker 4: me outside of the use of the fat suit is

1454
01:26:27,560 --> 01:26:32,160
Speaker 4: that Edna is the only fat character I think who

1455
01:26:32,400 --> 01:26:36,799
Speaker 4: who is being written to fall prey to the tropes

1456
01:26:36,840 --> 01:26:40,880
Speaker 4: of like emotional eating and like always hungry, and that's

1457
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:42,639
Speaker 4: how you keep her in a room. I don't think

1458
01:26:42,680 --> 01:26:45,880
Speaker 4: that the other fat women in the in the movie

1459
01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:48,479
Speaker 4: are really treated that way. So I feel like there's

1460
01:26:48,680 --> 01:26:53,120
Speaker 4: notes of that, but it's definitely not I think the

1461
01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:56,240
Speaker 4: worst incarnation of it, and I do, I mean it is.

1462
01:26:56,320 --> 01:26:58,400
Speaker 4: It does make me feel a lot better that like

1463
01:26:58,840 --> 01:27:01,080
Speaker 4: in the in the press junk that like John Travolta

1464
01:27:01,240 --> 01:27:04,559
Speaker 4: is like, no, I'm not trying to make fun of anybody,

1465
01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:07,000
Speaker 4: and I do feel like that comes through in the performance,

1466
01:27:08,800 --> 01:27:11,160
Speaker 4: And yeah, I don't.

1467
01:27:11,000 --> 01:27:14,519
Speaker 2: Know also Worth mentioning that every time a man is

1468
01:27:14,680 --> 01:27:18,120
Speaker 2: cast to play a woman, it takes a role and

1469
01:27:18,160 --> 01:27:23,040
Speaker 2: a paycheck away from a woman. But but if there

1470
01:27:23,080 --> 01:27:26,600
Speaker 2: was more parody and you got to see like femmes

1471
01:27:26,960 --> 01:27:33,920
Speaker 2: playing mask characters more often, because that rarely happens in movies. Again,

1472
01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:36,800
Speaker 2: like the lack of parody is kind of noticeable. But

1473
01:27:37,560 --> 01:27:40,880
Speaker 2: I don't know, just I thought Worth mentioning, Yeah, I

1474
01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:41,160
Speaker 2: don't know.

1475
01:27:41,200 --> 01:27:43,439
Speaker 4: I think ultimately it doesn't bother me that Edna is

1476
01:27:43,920 --> 01:27:48,200
Speaker 4: historically a drag role. No, yeah, I think, And honestly

1477
01:27:48,200 --> 01:27:51,960
Speaker 4: in my notes, I was like I got stuck in

1478
01:27:52,040 --> 01:27:54,080
Speaker 4: my head about it, and then I was just like,

1479
01:27:54,280 --> 01:27:58,360
Speaker 4: it's it's John Water's story of course, right, there's going

1480
01:27:58,400 --> 01:28:00,960
Speaker 4: to be people in drag. It's John Waters. That just

1481
01:28:01,000 --> 01:28:01,439
Speaker 4: makes sense.

1482
01:28:03,280 --> 01:28:08,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, does anyone have anything else they'd like to talk about?

1483
01:28:09,080 --> 01:28:12,280
Speaker 4: I was just glad that I just learned Harvey Firestein

1484
01:28:12,280 --> 01:28:14,600
Speaker 4: played dead. No, no that way. It was like I

1485
01:28:14,640 --> 01:28:19,280
Speaker 4: want to listen to the fire Steam cut. And also like,

1486
01:28:19,920 --> 01:28:22,200
Speaker 4: you know, like he's really famous. Why did why didn't

1487
01:28:22,200 --> 01:28:23,280
Speaker 4: he get to be? I mean I know that like

1488
01:28:23,320 --> 01:28:25,960
Speaker 4: John Travolta, I remember the marketing for this movie and

1489
01:28:26,040 --> 01:28:30,479
Speaker 4: that was like the headline. Yeah he was, yeah, in

1490
01:28:30,479 --> 01:28:33,960
Speaker 4: a movie full of famous people, but I was like Harvey.

1491
01:28:34,240 --> 01:28:37,840
Speaker 4: I would loved to see Harvey Firesteam played in this version.

1492
01:28:38,520 --> 01:28:40,679
Speaker 5: Yeah. I remember they Press junk They did a lot

1493
01:28:40,720 --> 01:28:43,680
Speaker 5: of like, come see this movie because John Trewood was

1494
01:28:43,720 --> 01:28:46,960
Speaker 5: in it, and also Queen Latifa and I they paired

1495
01:28:46,960 --> 01:28:49,880
Speaker 5: them together, you know, in the little Press Junkers. It

1496
01:28:49,880 --> 01:28:53,920
Speaker 5: was always those two and then randomly Zacha frown by

1497
01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:57,280
Speaker 5: himself a couple of times, then him with like Nikki Bronski.

1498
01:28:57,320 --> 01:29:01,040
Speaker 5: I feel like only really did in every use with

1499
01:29:01,240 --> 01:29:03,439
Speaker 5: But I think it's because they were like introducing her

1500
01:29:03,520 --> 01:29:07,160
Speaker 5: like this was our first big thing. But it was

1501
01:29:07,360 --> 01:29:11,000
Speaker 5: very much like, guys, come see this movie. John Tavoltz

1502
01:29:11,080 --> 01:29:13,880
Speaker 5: is in it, and so is Kreeamatifa. If you don't come,

1503
01:29:14,360 --> 01:29:16,880
Speaker 5: we hate you. This is this is the draw, This

1504
01:29:16,960 --> 01:29:20,320
Speaker 5: is the thing. But yeah, I think I don't know.

1505
01:29:20,360 --> 01:29:22,599
Speaker 5: I guess. If there's one other thing that I would say,

1506
01:29:22,680 --> 01:29:27,559
Speaker 5: it's that James Marsden should be cast in rom Comes

1507
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:33,760
Speaker 5: where he gets the girl. There should also fiction I'm

1508
01:29:33,800 --> 01:29:35,960
Speaker 5: the really gonna let it go? There should also these

1509
01:29:35,960 --> 01:29:39,120
Speaker 5: fans fiction of Corney Tallens and Monmouth Maybell and if

1510
01:29:39,120 --> 01:29:41,720
Speaker 5: you're not, if you don't write it, you're racist. And

1511
01:29:41,760 --> 01:29:47,200
Speaker 5: then also it's just like this is a lesson in

1512
01:29:47,240 --> 01:29:50,080
Speaker 5: what it takes to like have chemistry with the people

1513
01:29:50,120 --> 01:29:53,519
Speaker 5: that you cast like, we don't focus on chemistry enough anymore.

1514
01:29:54,360 --> 01:29:58,280
Speaker 5: Please bring back chemistry reads, that's what it is. Yeah,

1515
01:29:58,439 --> 01:30:01,280
Speaker 5: bring it back. We need it desperately.

1516
01:30:01,520 --> 01:30:02,679
Speaker 4: There has just been just.

1517
01:30:02,560 --> 01:30:05,759
Speaker 5: Because they're heart doesn't mean that they should actually work together.

1518
01:30:06,080 --> 01:30:11,400
Speaker 2: Exactly. See Matthew McConaughey in every rom com he's ever

1519
01:30:11,439 --> 01:30:11,800
Speaker 2: been kept.

1520
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:19,599
Speaker 4: Okay, see watch already that's Adam Shankman. Adam Shankman decided

1521
01:30:19,640 --> 01:30:23,479
Speaker 4: he and Jalo had chemistry, and I trust him, and

1522
01:30:23,520 --> 01:30:24,400
Speaker 4: I think they did.

1523
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:27,320
Speaker 5: And I think they did too. I think I think

1524
01:30:27,360 --> 01:30:30,360
Speaker 5: he had more chemistry with her than he did with

1525
01:30:30,640 --> 01:30:33,400
Speaker 5: Jennifer Garner in that one movie about the ex girlfriend's

1526
01:30:33,439 --> 01:30:35,360
Speaker 5: past that he doesn't.

1527
01:30:35,080 --> 01:30:36,759
Speaker 2: Have chemistry with any women.

1528
01:30:37,120 --> 01:30:38,959
Speaker 4: Kitlyn is a McCaughey detractor.

1529
01:30:40,800 --> 01:30:43,400
Speaker 5: They had chemrasry. You don't think they had chemistry.

1530
01:30:43,600 --> 01:30:46,800
Speaker 4: I think Kate Hudson can have chemistry with a wall.

1531
01:30:47,080 --> 01:30:52,759
Speaker 5: You know, he didn't have chemistry with a failure to launch.

1532
01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:56,519
Speaker 4: Oh, Sir Justica Parker Parker, they did not have chemistry. Yeah,

1533
01:30:56,600 --> 01:30:59,519
Speaker 4: that didn't work. I didn't, especially when you grow up

1534
01:30:59,560 --> 01:31:02,519
Speaker 4: watching Sarah Jessica Parker have chemistry with so many different people.

1535
01:31:02,640 --> 01:31:05,360
Speaker 5: You're like, literally so many different people.

1536
01:31:05,520 --> 01:31:08,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I'm only hearing examples of people whom Matthew

1537
01:31:08,800 --> 01:31:12,280
Speaker 2: McConaughey doesn't have chemistry with. My point has been proven

1538
01:31:12,320 --> 01:31:16,000
Speaker 2: as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, that's all I think.

1539
01:31:16,040 --> 01:31:20,760
Speaker 4: That's that's all I have to say. Yes, but does

1540
01:31:20,800 --> 01:31:22,840
Speaker 4: this movie past the Bechdel test?

1541
01:31:23,160 --> 01:31:24,000
Speaker 2: It does a lot.

1542
01:31:24,400 --> 01:31:24,719
Speaker 4: Yes.

1543
01:31:25,040 --> 01:31:30,080
Speaker 2: Tracy and Penny talk about dancing. Tracy and Edna talk

1544
01:31:30,200 --> 01:31:34,960
Speaker 2: about how it's the sixties and times are changing. Tracy

1545
01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:40,479
Speaker 2: and Velma talk about how Velma is racist, Velma and

1546
01:31:40,520 --> 01:31:43,600
Speaker 2: Amber talk lots of different combinations.

1547
01:31:44,160 --> 01:31:48,080
Speaker 4: It's true, And I like, Oh, last thing I'll shout

1548
01:31:48,120 --> 01:31:51,599
Speaker 4: out is there is like what would typically be coded

1549
01:31:51,640 --> 01:31:53,840
Speaker 4: as a makeover scene in this movie, but it's just

1550
01:31:54,040 --> 01:31:55,920
Speaker 4: Edna getting closed that she likes more.

1551
01:31:56,320 --> 01:31:59,040
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it didn't even register for me, honestly.

1552
01:31:59,560 --> 01:32:01,599
Speaker 5: And I like, there was nothing that was like, ooh,

1553
01:32:01,680 --> 01:32:03,520
Speaker 5: let me make a sinner exactly.

1554
01:32:03,760 --> 01:32:07,200
Speaker 4: She's like, oh, there is like a store for me,

1555
01:32:07,640 --> 01:32:11,640
Speaker 4: and now I can have a matching sequin outfit with

1556
01:32:11,680 --> 01:32:14,440
Speaker 4: my daughter, which incredible.

1557
01:32:15,080 --> 01:32:19,040
Speaker 5: I also really like Big Blonde and Beautiful. Yes, I

1558
01:32:19,080 --> 01:32:22,880
Speaker 5: think that's a very good song that has nothing to

1559
01:32:22,920 --> 01:32:25,640
Speaker 5: do with a man and just being like, yeah, I

1560
01:32:25,760 --> 01:32:27,920
Speaker 5: like to eat dopey STANDI I'm a grown girl, Like

1561
01:32:27,960 --> 01:32:31,040
Speaker 5: I'm gonna eat this food on his table, and you

1562
01:32:31,080 --> 01:32:33,839
Speaker 5: know I like that because I'm always hungry.

1563
01:32:35,720 --> 01:32:40,080
Speaker 2: And now it's time for our nipple scale, our perfect metric,

1564
01:32:40,200 --> 01:32:42,519
Speaker 2: in which we rate the movie on a scale of

1565
01:32:42,600 --> 01:32:46,559
Speaker 2: zero to five nipples based on examining it through an

1566
01:32:46,640 --> 01:32:55,280
Speaker 2: intersectional feminist lens. I would say, I'll start by saying

1567
01:32:55,320 --> 01:33:00,160
Speaker 2: that I completely hear your point, Kia, about wanting to

1568
01:33:00,240 --> 01:33:05,240
Speaker 2: see something that you can escape into a story that

1569
01:33:05,800 --> 01:33:10,000
Speaker 2: deals with racism and has this happy, kind of fairy tale,

1570
01:33:10,600 --> 01:33:15,559
Speaker 2: escapist ending that doesn't remind you of, you know, the

1571
01:33:16,080 --> 01:33:21,200
Speaker 2: horrors and trauma of real life racism. I guess I

1572
01:33:21,200 --> 01:33:25,360
Speaker 2: would just like to see more versions of that as

1573
01:33:25,520 --> 01:33:31,839
Speaker 2: told through a black perspective that doesn't do the various

1574
01:33:32,280 --> 01:33:37,120
Speaker 2: fumbles that this movie does, and that actually characterizes the

1575
01:33:37,160 --> 01:33:41,040
Speaker 2: black characters and gives them interior lives.

1576
01:33:41,200 --> 01:33:43,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think that there's ways for media to

1577
01:33:43,240 --> 01:33:48,040
Speaker 4: be escapist and inclusive, like yeah, for sure, and it's yeah,

1578
01:33:48,080 --> 01:33:50,720
Speaker 4: and it's all behind the scenes stuff, definitely.

1579
01:33:51,560 --> 01:33:57,520
Speaker 2: And then between that and the movie's perspective on fatness,

1580
01:33:57,560 --> 01:34:02,479
Speaker 2: which in some ways is rather progressive in terms of

1581
01:34:02,720 --> 01:34:07,679
Speaker 2: it showcasing a fat character who is confident and who

1582
01:34:07,800 --> 01:34:10,720
Speaker 2: loves herself and her body, which is something that's so

1583
01:34:10,960 --> 01:34:14,880
Speaker 2: rare to see in popular media. But then it turns

1584
01:34:14,920 --> 01:34:17,800
Speaker 2: around and puts John Travolta in a fat suit and

1585
01:34:18,080 --> 01:34:23,760
Speaker 2: relies on reductive stereotypes for the Edna character. So I

1586
01:34:23,800 --> 01:34:26,560
Speaker 2: don't know. Oh, how many nipples?

1587
01:34:26,960 --> 01:34:27,360
Speaker 5: Is it? Like?

1588
01:34:28,120 --> 01:34:29,280
Speaker 2: Two? Is it three?

1589
01:34:30,640 --> 01:34:32,639
Speaker 4: Bruce Flanche also played Edna.

1590
01:34:33,160 --> 01:34:35,000
Speaker 2: Oh that's great.

1591
01:34:36,560 --> 01:34:38,519
Speaker 4: Sorry, still on this article.

1592
01:34:38,640 --> 01:34:44,240
Speaker 2: Okay, nipples, I'm gonna give it. It feels like cheating

1593
01:34:44,360 --> 01:34:46,599
Speaker 2: to give it two and a half, but I think

1594
01:34:46,640 --> 01:34:50,559
Speaker 2: that's where I'm gonna land because it's heart is in

1595
01:34:50,640 --> 01:34:55,759
Speaker 2: the right place. It's trying to do something and say something.

1596
01:34:56,400 --> 01:35:01,920
Speaker 2: It's not doing it perfectly, but the attempt is clear.

1597
01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:06,000
Speaker 2: So I'll give it two and a half nipples. I'll

1598
01:35:06,040 --> 01:35:10,639
Speaker 2: give one to Taylor Parks, who plays I knows. I'll

1599
01:35:10,640 --> 01:35:14,200
Speaker 2: give one to Queen Latifah and I'll give my half

1600
01:35:14,640 --> 01:35:22,880
Speaker 2: nipple to Michelle Pfeiffer as Catwoman, and Batman returns.

1601
01:35:23,240 --> 01:35:28,320
Speaker 4: I'm gonna go three for nostalgia purposes, I agree, Like

1602
01:35:28,400 --> 01:35:32,880
Speaker 4: I think that the again, it's just like this movie

1603
01:35:33,080 --> 01:35:37,880
Speaker 4: slash production. It's more understandable to me that these issues

1604
01:35:37,880 --> 01:35:40,240
Speaker 4: are present in the nineteen eighty eight version because John

1605
01:35:40,280 --> 01:35:43,960
Speaker 4: Waters was always working on such shoe string budgets. But

1606
01:35:44,040 --> 01:35:47,400
Speaker 4: by the time it's like a huge This was a

1607
01:35:47,439 --> 01:35:50,800
Speaker 4: huge budget movie. They had John Travolta money, So yes,

1608
01:35:51,000 --> 01:35:54,559
Speaker 4: you did have the money, but not the foresight to

1609
01:35:54,600 --> 01:35:58,000
Speaker 4: have black creatives involved behind the camera, which is I'm

1610
01:35:58,000 --> 01:36:00,320
Speaker 4: a say we hear about all the time, but I think,

1611
01:36:00,439 --> 01:36:04,920
Speaker 4: especially in a story that explicitly deals with race at

1612
01:36:04,920 --> 01:36:08,640
Speaker 4: a very specific place in time, you know, it's ridiculous.

1613
01:36:09,200 --> 01:36:12,120
Speaker 4: I hate the Fat Suit, Zero out of Town on

1614
01:36:12,160 --> 01:36:14,760
Speaker 4: the Fat Suit, but I think that this movie is

1615
01:36:14,840 --> 01:36:19,200
Speaker 4: so campy in so many ways. I this movie is

1616
01:36:19,439 --> 01:36:24,320
Speaker 4: so queer coded in so many ways. For some reason,

1617
01:36:24,320 --> 01:36:28,479
Speaker 4: I'm like Miss Baltimore Crabs is a queer song. I

1618
01:36:28,479 --> 01:36:31,519
Speaker 4: can't really tell you why that is, but I know

1619
01:36:31,640 --> 01:36:34,719
Speaker 4: that it's true. Like it's just a very gay movie,

1620
01:36:34,880 --> 01:36:36,719
Speaker 4: and that's part of why I love it so much.

1621
01:36:37,040 --> 01:36:41,760
Speaker 2: The font of the title on the poster is a rainbow.

1622
01:36:42,280 --> 01:36:45,679
Speaker 4: It's iconic. I mean, it's like there's you know, queer

1623
01:36:45,720 --> 01:36:48,320
Speaker 4: representation in this movie, even though none of all of

1624
01:36:48,360 --> 01:36:53,080
Speaker 4: the characters are straight, is at an all time high.

1625
01:36:51,439 --> 01:37:02,759
Speaker 4: And I'm like, not even joking, goodness, it's like, it's

1626
01:37:02,800 --> 01:37:05,519
Speaker 4: a blast. And I agree that like for all of

1627
01:37:05,560 --> 01:37:08,640
Speaker 4: its issues, it's not nothing that its heart is in

1628
01:37:08,720 --> 01:37:12,320
Speaker 4: the right place. And even though it fumbles, you know,

1629
01:37:12,360 --> 01:37:14,840
Speaker 4: we've talked about it at length at this point, it

1630
01:37:14,920 --> 01:37:17,840
Speaker 4: certainly fumbles a lot, but this movie is not mean spirited,

1631
01:37:18,520 --> 01:37:23,479
Speaker 4: which I think means something and it's Yeah, So I'm

1632
01:37:23,479 --> 01:37:28,040
Speaker 4: gonna go three nipples. I think I'm gonna give one

1633
01:37:28,080 --> 01:37:32,000
Speaker 4: to Harvey Fairestein because I'm now really invested in that.

1634
01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:35,280
Speaker 4: Of course, I'm going to give one to Taylor Parks,

1635
01:37:35,439 --> 01:37:38,360
Speaker 4: who is one of the great pop song composers of

1636
01:37:38,400 --> 01:37:41,679
Speaker 4: our generation. She's a legend. I love her so much,

1637
01:37:42,240 --> 01:37:45,360
Speaker 4: and I will give the last one. Ooh, I'm gonna

1638
01:37:45,400 --> 01:37:49,200
Speaker 4: split the last one, and I'm going to split it

1639
01:37:49,240 --> 01:37:55,599
Speaker 4: between Elijah Kelly and James Morriston, who in spite of

1640
01:37:55,640 --> 01:37:58,000
Speaker 4: the Zach Effron of it all, were my top two

1641
01:37:58,040 --> 01:37:58,960
Speaker 4: crushes in this movie.

1642
01:37:59,280 --> 01:38:03,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna go four out of five.

1643
01:38:04,520 --> 01:38:09,559
Speaker 5: Listen with its issues, Yeah, even with it's very greatant

1644
01:38:09,760 --> 01:38:15,360
Speaker 5: and very obvious issues, this movie is very important to

1645
01:38:15,439 --> 01:38:22,080
Speaker 5: me as a virgo. And I think, like despite the

1646
01:38:22,160 --> 01:38:26,120
Speaker 5: sort of white savior miss and the fat suit and

1647
01:38:26,200 --> 01:38:30,200
Speaker 5: the like inability to just have fat people be fat

1648
01:38:30,240 --> 01:38:35,080
Speaker 5: people without being en day for all of their characters,

1649
01:38:35,640 --> 01:38:38,240
Speaker 5: I would say four out of five because it just

1650
01:38:38,760 --> 01:38:41,160
Speaker 5: for nostalgia reasons, it just really means the world to me,

1651
01:38:41,240 --> 01:38:45,120
Speaker 5: and I think that it's a perfectly casted movie. And

1652
01:38:45,200 --> 01:38:48,320
Speaker 5: so my first nipple is going to clean the Tifa

1653
01:38:48,400 --> 01:38:51,240
Speaker 5: because she's clean Latifa, of course, and she's the perfect

1654
01:38:51,320 --> 01:38:56,559
Speaker 5: motibile bebel. And my second nipple is going to the

1655
01:38:56,600 --> 01:39:03,320
Speaker 5: relationship more about Lobo, because they're together, they go together

1656
01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:05,480
Speaker 5: real bad, like Carisia said.

1657
01:39:05,200 --> 01:39:09,200
Speaker 2: Corny Collins, more like Horny Collins.

1658
01:39:08,560 --> 01:39:12,719
Speaker 5: Yes, exactly. And then my third nipple of course goes

1659
01:39:12,760 --> 01:39:18,479
Speaker 5: to honestly Amanda Vines because even though she didn't sing,

1660
01:39:18,880 --> 01:39:23,120
Speaker 5: she was perfectly petty in this movie. And like I think,

1661
01:39:23,240 --> 01:39:26,439
Speaker 5: I think about the live adaption of Harris Pray that

1662
01:39:26,479 --> 01:39:29,280
Speaker 5: Arianna Grande was tenny and she can sing.

1663
01:39:29,680 --> 01:39:32,400
Speaker 2: But I think doesn't feel like the right test.

1664
01:39:32,479 --> 01:39:36,479
Speaker 5: Amanda Vines acting as Penny. Yeah, yeah, Amanda Vines acting

1665
01:39:36,520 --> 01:39:40,440
Speaker 5: as Penny was a one day one. And then yeah,

1666
01:39:40,479 --> 01:39:44,879
Speaker 5: my final nipple goes to I'm stealing your answer, Jamie.

1667
01:39:45,520 --> 01:39:48,000
Speaker 5: They have to Elijah Carry and the other half to

1668
01:39:48,040 --> 01:39:51,839
Speaker 5: James Marsden because I love them both. They're both fine,

1669
01:39:52,360 --> 01:39:55,639
Speaker 5: and I love an attractive man. I forget that they're possible,

1670
01:39:55,760 --> 01:40:01,200
Speaker 5: but they are in this movie. And yeah, just you know,

1671
01:40:01,600 --> 01:40:04,920
Speaker 5: shout out to the queer codedness as well. Yes, because

1672
01:40:04,920 --> 01:40:09,200
Speaker 5: again it's Pride Month, and as your local buye, I

1673
01:40:09,360 --> 01:40:12,960
Speaker 5: will say that I find almost every woman in this

1674
01:40:13,080 --> 01:40:15,400
Speaker 5: movie just as attractive as almost every man.

1675
01:40:16,200 --> 01:40:19,760
Speaker 4: It's pretty unbelievable. Yeah, yeah, I oh, what was I

1676
01:40:19,800 --> 01:40:20,320
Speaker 4: gonna say?

1677
01:40:20,439 --> 01:40:20,599
Speaker 2: Oh?

1678
01:40:20,800 --> 01:40:25,120
Speaker 4: I didn't know Ariana had played that part. And it

1679
01:40:25,280 --> 01:40:29,439
Speaker 4: just I'm an arian orientator, That's what I am.

1680
01:40:29,560 --> 01:40:31,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, me too. I like our music.

1681
01:40:31,479 --> 01:40:33,599
Speaker 4: I just think like Taylor Parks writes a lot of it.

1682
01:40:33,720 --> 01:40:36,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, I just think it was like glaring to me

1683
01:40:36,840 --> 01:40:39,240
Speaker 5: what the difference is between the two. Like Amanda Vines

1684
01:40:39,640 --> 01:40:42,920
Speaker 5: cannot say, Ariana grind they can sing, but Amanda Vines

1685
01:40:43,040 --> 01:40:46,759
Speaker 5: was given as tunny. I fully believe, yeah, she understood

1686
01:40:46,760 --> 01:40:49,400
Speaker 5: the vibes of who Penny needed to.

1687
01:40:49,360 --> 01:40:52,680
Speaker 4: Be ultimately in movie musicals, It's like, I would much

1688
01:40:52,680 --> 01:40:55,559
Speaker 4: prefer someone could act than sing. It would be great

1689
01:40:55,640 --> 01:40:57,920
Speaker 4: if they could do both. But I also, oh, that

1690
01:40:58,000 --> 01:41:01,400
Speaker 4: was what I was gonna say, because arian is in

1691
01:41:01,600 --> 01:41:04,479
Speaker 4: the Wicked, the live action Wicked movie, and I'm just

1692
01:41:04,560 --> 01:41:09,240
Speaker 4: a little worried because I'm a fan. But the girl

1693
01:41:09,280 --> 01:41:11,320
Speaker 4: can't act. It hasn't been able to since she was

1694
01:41:11,360 --> 01:41:13,480
Speaker 4: a child. It's concerning.

1695
01:41:13,600 --> 01:41:18,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean, like like you, Jamie.

1696
01:41:18,000 --> 01:41:21,360
Speaker 4: I'm very worried Cynthia Arrivo cannot carry this movie on

1697
01:41:21,400 --> 01:41:21,800
Speaker 4: her back.

1698
01:41:21,880 --> 01:41:22,519
Speaker 2: It's not fair.

1699
01:41:22,960 --> 01:41:25,439
Speaker 5: It's just it's gonna be interesting to see because it's

1700
01:41:25,479 --> 01:41:28,439
Speaker 5: like two movies now they're splitting it so.

1701
01:41:28,520 --> 01:41:31,400
Speaker 4: Which also is like what huh, We're going to sing

1702
01:41:31,400 --> 01:41:33,840
Speaker 4: defying gravity and then make me come back a year later,

1703
01:41:34,000 --> 01:41:37,439
Speaker 4: Like what are you talking about? Yeah, the theater kids

1704
01:41:37,479 --> 01:41:40,360
Speaker 4: are gonna be fairal I'm looking forward to it.

1705
01:41:41,280 --> 01:41:44,439
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much, Kia for joining us. It

1706
01:41:44,520 --> 01:41:48,599
Speaker 2: is always a damn delight to have you come back

1707
01:41:48,800 --> 01:41:54,000
Speaker 2: truly any time for any movie. Where can people follow you,

1708
01:41:54,640 --> 01:41:58,120
Speaker 2: check out your work, order your book, et cetera.

1709
01:41:58,640 --> 01:42:02,599
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I'm over on the hell site called Twitter

1710
01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:08,479
Speaker 5: at kok Ah Underscore Maria m A l I. It's

1711
01:42:08,520 --> 01:42:11,960
Speaker 5: the same on TikTok and Instagram. Even though I am

1712
01:42:11,960 --> 01:42:15,160
Speaker 5: bad at TikTok, I'm there, and then you can find

1713
01:42:15,200 --> 01:42:18,560
Speaker 5: me on Facebook at the Kia Brown and my website

1714
01:42:18,680 --> 01:42:22,080
Speaker 5: is Kia Brown dot com. And also again, if you

1715
01:42:22,280 --> 01:42:26,760
Speaker 5: like queer y a romance stories where they don't do

1716
01:42:26,960 --> 01:42:30,800
Speaker 5: drugs in a seven eleven parking lot, you can read

1717
01:42:30,840 --> 01:42:33,320
Speaker 5: my book, The Secrets of My Promise, and I think

1718
01:42:33,360 --> 01:42:35,599
Speaker 5: you'll love it, so please buy it because I promise

1719
01:42:35,640 --> 01:42:36,080
Speaker 5: it's good.

1720
01:42:36,439 --> 01:42:38,519
Speaker 2: So that's a secret summer promise. Yeah.

1721
01:42:38,720 --> 01:42:42,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I bought it and it's in the other I

1722
01:42:42,080 --> 01:42:44,760
Speaker 4: bought it at book People in Austin, Texas.

1723
01:42:45,160 --> 01:42:47,280
Speaker 5: You did bring it with you so that if I

1724
01:42:47,400 --> 01:42:48,439
Speaker 5: see you, I can sign it.

1725
01:42:48,800 --> 01:42:50,040
Speaker 4: Okay, Oh my gosh.

1726
01:42:50,200 --> 01:42:55,960
Speaker 2: Hell yeah. You can follow us on the hell website Twitter,

1727
01:42:56,000 --> 01:43:00,400
Speaker 2: as well as the other hell website, Instagram or app

1728
01:43:00,439 --> 01:43:05,000
Speaker 2: at whatever. I'm one hundred years old and you can

1729
01:43:05,200 --> 01:43:09,200
Speaker 2: follow us there. At Bechtel Cast, you can subscribe to

1730
01:43:09,360 --> 01:43:15,599
Speaker 2: our Matreon where we did do Zach Marchron slash march

1731
01:43:15,720 --> 01:43:21,840
Speaker 2: Efron slash zach Efron March probably observed in July October,

1732
01:43:23,280 --> 01:43:28,360
Speaker 2: so we did march Efron and many many other episodes

1733
01:43:28,439 --> 01:43:32,719
Speaker 2: which you can have access to for five dollars a month,

1734
01:43:33,439 --> 01:43:36,799
Speaker 2: and that's at patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast.

1735
01:43:37,240 --> 01:43:40,120
Speaker 4: And you can get our merch over at teapublic dot

1736
01:43:40,120 --> 01:43:43,400
Speaker 4: com slash Thepechtyl Cast if you're feeling so inclined. And

1737
01:43:43,880 --> 01:43:47,920
Speaker 4: with that, oh look the garbage truck is passing five.

1738
01:43:48,240 --> 01:43:51,920
Speaker 4: We've got to get to school. Here we go, Bye

1739
01:43:52,120 --> 01:43:52,960
Speaker 4: bye bye