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Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature future production of I Heart Radio. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology

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Speaker 1: and evolutionary biology, and today on the show, we're talking

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Speaker 1: about glam rock animals, animals who are glamorous and glitzy

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Speaker 1: and on occasion also tough as a rock. From the

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Speaker 1: shiny and splendiferous scale worms of the deep to scuba

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Speaker 1: diving lizards, these animals all have one thing in common.

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Speaker 1: They are on glam Discover this Morris Ma answer the

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Speaker 1: asual question was that rainbow Fish Children's book of Body Horror.

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Speaker 1: Joining me today is Front of the pod podcast person

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Speaker 1: frequent voice on Fake Doctor's Real Friends DJ and twitch

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Speaker 1: Man Dan L. Goodman. Hi, how's it going good? Do

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Speaker 1: you mind if I call you twitch Man? Twitch Man?

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Speaker 1: That is perfect? Twitch Man is excellent. I'm I'm honored

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Speaker 1: by the title. Yeah, yeah, I'm a pod woman. I

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Speaker 1: feel like I missed the times where it's like like

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Speaker 1: Blacksmith or you know, can't you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Like when we have these these names like lamp lighter

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Speaker 1: or you know, like like we have podcaster, but like

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Speaker 1: what about pod smith. I was just thinking, how fun

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Speaker 1: pod Smith would be, Yeah, it sounds like real work,

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Speaker 1: which it's not. I go to the kilns of pro

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Speaker 1: tools and craft strong by hand. Had handblown podcast technically

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Speaker 1: true because you know, you breathe out with your mouth

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Speaker 1: as you make mouth sounds. Anyways, we are talking about

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Speaker 1: glam rock animals, animals who are glamorous, incredible looking, the

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Speaker 1: rock stars of the natural Kingdom, and they're glitzy and

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Speaker 1: glamorous appearance have probably real reasons for it, actual survival

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Speaker 1: reasons which we will discuss. What do you think of

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Speaker 1: when you think of glam rock in general? Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, there was definitely I'll tell you a very

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Speaker 1: short story. The very first vintage T shirt that I

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Speaker 1: ever got at this place on Lebrey called jet Rag

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Speaker 1: was an old Poison T shirt, a Poison Tour T shirt,

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Speaker 1: and on the back I think it said rock the

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Speaker 1: Funk Out. And my mom didn't see that at the time,

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Speaker 1: so she let me buy this shirt that said funk

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Speaker 1: on it, and I was like, so I think of

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Speaker 1: that shirt, but I think of hair, I think of Neon,

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Speaker 1: I think of Sparkles, I think of like yeah, so

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Speaker 1: I think of a lot of like you know, we're

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Speaker 1: talking wall of sound, we're talking big. So I thought

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Speaker 1: that's what I think. Everything big hair, big, eyeliner big,

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Speaker 1: you know, mega big, the hole on the ozone from

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Speaker 1: the Hairspray big. Perfect. But yeah, So the first animal

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about is the Elvis war Um,

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Speaker 1: which has is named after the King of Rock, Elvis,

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Speaker 1: because it is iridescent and glitz and glamorous and also

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Speaker 1: kind of an asshole. Oh yeah, I mean it's not

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Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't think they named it after

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Speaker 1: Elvis because it's an asshole. But I think it's fits

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Speaker 1: right because he was kind of an ass wasn't he.

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Speaker 1: That is my understanding. Yes, you know, I'm look, I'm

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Speaker 1: keeping it real. I'm not saying Elvis. It's not cool

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Speaker 1: to like Elvis, but you know he had he had

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Speaker 1: a big sound, but also a big ego. That is

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Speaker 1: what I hear. Is my understanding as well. Shout out

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Speaker 1: to listener Vincent Jourgensen for this idea that I don't

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Speaker 1: know why I have not talked about these on the

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Speaker 1: show before, because they are incredible. They have this rainbow

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Speaker 1: and purple shimmer. Now, Daniel, I want you to look

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Speaker 1: at this, this little little cutie I haven't pulled up

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Speaker 1: right here, And this is a shimmery is a shimmery

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Speaker 1: looking little worm. How big is this worm there? You know? Um,

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Speaker 1: i'd say about like palm sized. Oh that's that's big.

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Speaker 1: I guess so not that big. Well, fair fair play,

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Speaker 1: but to be this is and this is truly an

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Speaker 1: error on my part. But looking at this image just

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Speaker 1: on the just on the raw, just like stark black

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Speaker 1: of it, it almost felt like a slide. I was

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Speaker 1: ready to be looking at like a microscopic worm here.

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Speaker 1: I was ready for you to say, oh, you could

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Speaker 1: fit about a thousand on your hand right now. I'd

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Speaker 1: be like, you know, not not not super huge. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: they are definitely like not. They are not microscopic. They

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Speaker 1: can can see him with the naked eye. Hold them

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Speaker 1: in your hand, you know, let him crawl all over you.

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Speaker 1: I would get the I would get the willies. I

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Speaker 1: believe it's the willies. I get the willies very quickly.

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Speaker 1: I call I call it the Jimmy skin. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that works too, that's very funny. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: so they are absolutely beautiful. They look like holographic nail

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Speaker 1: polish or you know, the most the glittery, most glittery

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Speaker 1: glam that you could find. They were discovered by a

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Speaker 1: team of researchers at Scripts Institute of Oceanography at UCSD.

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Speaker 1: Shout out to my dad who works at Scripts Institute

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Speaker 1: of Oceanography. He's actually in the ocean Physics group, so

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Speaker 1: they deal with the physics of waves. Not necessarily the critters,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, you know, got it. Good, good job, guys.

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Speaker 1: Can't wait to see all for a beer. And I'll say, hey,

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Speaker 1: good work on that worm, you know, good, good work

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Speaker 1: on that worm. Good good warming you guys. Oh got me.

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at this worm also, and it reminds me

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Speaker 1: remember that book The Rainbow Fish. Yes, yes, oh oh man,

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Speaker 1: I love that book as a kid. Just very similar

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Speaker 1: color scheme of just like that, you know, super iridescent

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Speaker 1: glowy but also like some solid color but also looks

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Speaker 1: like there's just like super flexive rainbow everywhere. Just trying

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Speaker 1: to just trying to paint as as vivid stone to

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Speaker 1: picture as I possibly can of this world I look

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Speaker 1: at at right now. You know, man, it's like that

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Speaker 1: book The Rainbow Fish, because it's like they had this

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Speaker 1: like iridescent glittery scales on this fish was so fun

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Speaker 1: as a kid because you could like touch it and

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Speaker 1: like feel like emboss Yes. It was also I felt

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Speaker 1: kind of sorry for the rainbow fish because it was

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Speaker 1: like he's got all these rainbow scales on him, right,

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Speaker 1: and like his fish friends who don't have those are jealous.

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Speaker 1: So he it's a book about sharing, like you share

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Speaker 1: this with others and generally speak I'm very pro sharing,

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Speaker 1: you know, pro sharing or resources with others. But it's

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Speaker 1: part of his body. So a little strange, right of

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Speaker 1: a weird message. It's like if you are hanging out

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Speaker 1: with friends and you're like, oh, I really like your hair,

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Speaker 1: and you're like, you do it and then you just

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Speaker 1: like cut off a big tree here you go, rip

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Speaker 1: it off. And that's the thing. And that's the thing

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Speaker 1: with kids that are unpredictable. It's like they'll take the

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Speaker 1: note to the letter. So it's like, I know the

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Speaker 1: story of the rain it's about sharing. They're like, okay,

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Speaker 1: so I like rip off my skin for my friends,

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Speaker 1: Like no, no, no, no, no, no no no no

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Speaker 1: not quite that. Well, you know that is a horrible

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Speaker 1: kindergarten scene that I do not want to see. But

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Speaker 1: so yeah, these do look these do look like the

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Speaker 1: rainbow fish. They are They are in fact a worm.

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Speaker 1: I know, like sometimes we call things worms but they

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Speaker 1: aren't really, but they are. They are warm. They're actually

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Speaker 1: a type of scale worm, uh and which is actually

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Speaker 1: related to very distantly related to earthworms, a little more

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Speaker 1: closely related to bristle worms. You may know some bristle worms,

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Speaker 1: like there is We've talked about some of them on

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Speaker 1: the show, like the bobbit worm. This horrifying tremors, Like

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Speaker 1: did I were you on the show and I talked

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Speaker 1: about the bottom I think, Wow, I love it. I

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Speaker 1: love how somehow that worked out because I did not

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Speaker 1: plan for that. I was gonna say, I feel like

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Speaker 1: we talked about like I remember you describing something because

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Speaker 1: a tremor's like worm, and I was like, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: I just well, I'm flattered either way. But like if

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Speaker 1: it was if it's a worm that lives under the

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Speaker 1: sand at the bottom of the sea, it lunges out

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Speaker 1: of the sand and we'll grab onto an unsuspecting fish

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Speaker 1: and pull them back down, sort of like a tremor's

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Speaker 1: worm or like a sarlac. But it's also very shiny

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Speaker 1: and iridescent. Now it's it's not super closely related to

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Speaker 1: this one, but fairly it's it's a bristle worm, so

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Speaker 1: they are, you know, so scale. But this the elvis,

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Speaker 1: it's actually called p elvis idea kinda gotta have it

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Speaker 1: sound scientific. I was gonna say it's to sound that

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Speaker 1: sound good, but yeah, they did name it that because

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Speaker 1: of its sort of glittery, glamorous look that they thought

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Speaker 1: looked flashy like elvis. And um, so here's what it

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Speaker 1: looks like. So it's not it doesn't actually look super

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Speaker 1: like a worm like you think of an earthworm. It

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Speaker 1: has a series of interlocking scales on its back that

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Speaker 1: are shiny like that. It's like it looks like plate armor.

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Speaker 1: And it's kind of flat, very shiny and earduscin. And

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Speaker 1: underneath it has these gold shiny bristles jutting out of

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Speaker 1: it that you might mistake for legs, but aren't actually legs.

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Speaker 1: They're just these these bristles. Um and at its head

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Speaker 1: it has these things that look a little bit like pincers.

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Speaker 1: They're actually not quite pincers. They're called pelps. So pelps

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Speaker 1: are these appendages at the heads near the mouths of

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Speaker 1: m Arthur pods. You can see them in spiders and

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Speaker 1: insects as well. Um, so those are its palps and

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Speaker 1: so yeah, it's it's kind of but it's it's rather

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Speaker 1: flat looking and it's kind of oval shaped and so

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Speaker 1: like you know, it's kind of alien and bizarre looking.

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Speaker 1: But it gets way weirder than what you can just

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Speaker 1: see at a glance. So being on being on this show,

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Speaker 1: you know, I will say I wasn't entirely surprised by

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Speaker 1: that potential, but like I'm excited. Please go on. When

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Speaker 1: you said that, I was like, you know, I had

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Speaker 1: a feeling you were gonna say, Well, you know, there's

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Speaker 1: always something hidden underneath the surface for these animals. So

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Speaker 1: like these are found in the deep sea near like uh,

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Speaker 1: hydrothermic vents, as well as on the carcasses of fallen

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Speaker 1: sea creatures, including whales. So when whales die, it's certainly

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Speaker 1: sad for for the whales, but it's a great moon

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Speaker 1: for all of these underwater Arthur pods. Uh, these deep

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Speaker 1: sea creatures that will feed on the whales carcass and

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Speaker 1: it can feed a hell of a lot of animals

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Speaker 1: in life. I have a question. Isn't there a term

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Speaker 1: for like the kind of like minor or like micro

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Speaker 1: ecosystem created by a whale carcass? Am I thinking, am,

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Speaker 1: I could be I may I may just be this.

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Speaker 1: I could be pulling this all the way out of

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Speaker 1: my ass right here. But I felt like there was

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Speaker 1: some word for like the micro eco system created ecro

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Speaker 1: micro ecosystem created by a dead whale in the ocean,

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Speaker 1: because like, yeah, you're right, feel that. I feel that,

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Speaker 1: I feel like there is. I mean, I thought it

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Speaker 1: had a specific I mean I think it's called like whalefall,

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Speaker 1: actual walefall. I think that's it. Yeah, I think you're right.

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Speaker 1: That's it. You're right, whalefall. That's it. Nice that whalefall. Well,

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Speaker 1: thank you for reminding me that that term exists. It

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Speaker 1: is a cool like whalefall. Yeah, so, I mean it's

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Speaker 1: pretty straightforward. I guess it's what a while full too,

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Speaker 1: But yeah, it is. It's something where there's something kind

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Speaker 1: of grim and ghoulish about it seeing this to kaing whale,

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Speaker 1: But it's also incredible how much life that can support.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like when a tree falls, a huge

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Speaker 1: tree falls in the forest. There's something sad about that, right,

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Speaker 1: this this ancient tree falling and in decaying. But then

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Speaker 1: that tree feeds so many animals, In fact, an animal

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about later on the show. A

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Speaker 1: lot of a lot of these glamorous animals like to

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Speaker 1: feed on dead things. But hey, look, you know it's

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Speaker 1: a living so they will feed on things like whale carcasses.

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Speaker 1: I know that the research team that collected some of

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Speaker 1: these specimens actually found them on a whale carcass, so

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Speaker 1: that must have been a fun treat. You're like zooming

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Speaker 1: around looking at this whale carcass. It's all it's all

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Speaker 1: strange and kind of creepy. And then you see this

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Speaker 1: like glitters glamor or this little uh scale where I'm

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Speaker 1: going like, hello, I'm here, and here I am eating

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Speaker 1: a dead whale. I don't know how Elvis sounds, you know,

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Speaker 1: just like you, I was transported. You know what I'm saying,

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Speaker 1: the dead whale. That's a little better. Okay, words, that

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Speaker 1: was funny. Um, But like I said, like Elvis, not

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Speaker 1: only in appearance, but a little bit assholy. They like

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Speaker 1: to bite each other when they're not biting on some

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Speaker 1: delicious whale fall carcass. So they that is one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons that they have these scales is for protections.

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Speaker 1: Protection not only from other animals and predator, but from

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Speaker 1: their competition literally from each other. Yeah, from each other

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Speaker 1: and when they bite each other. It's fascinating. So I

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Speaker 1: want you to before I say anything else, just take

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Speaker 1: a look at that picture that I've provided for you.

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Speaker 1: I uh, I mean, I'm horrified, obviously this This is

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Speaker 1: a terrifying picture of I'm seeing a demon of the

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Speaker 1: soup with it's almost like, um, I want to say,

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Speaker 1: I mean, okay, okay. It looks like a faceless worm

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Speaker 1: with a with a like a bird's beak coming out

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Speaker 1: of the center, but it's surrounded by like a statue

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Speaker 1: of liberty of like it's just outward appendages, Like I

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Speaker 1: know they're not horns, but it looks like a wreath

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Speaker 1: of horns sticking out around a bird's mouth coming out

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Speaker 1: of an eyeless worm. Demon. Yeah, that's about right. They

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Speaker 1: actually have a proboscus that they can avert. So proboscis

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Speaker 1: is basically like a fleshy probe. It can mean like

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Speaker 1: a nose, it can mean a variety of different things,

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Speaker 1: but it's basically a flesh probe, which flesh probe, it's

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Speaker 1: not really that's not really a am rock name is

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Speaker 1: it could be a song though, could be a song.

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Speaker 1: I feel like this show is good at producing metal

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Speaker 1: names more than glam rock names, like flesh probe. That

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Speaker 1: would be a name, so they can avert it, which

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Speaker 1: means basically like pushing it out from inside of them.

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Speaker 1: And then in this proboscis, what you're seeing is a

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Speaker 1: set of jaws, set of sharp jaws that they can

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Speaker 1: use to snap at their food source like a dead

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Speaker 1: whale or each other if they if they're feeling feisty. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so just you know, like in Aliens, like how the

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Speaker 1: alien shoots out a smaller alien tongue with a set

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Speaker 1: of jaws. It's just like that. It's like boop, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna snap you up. Another similar feature of the of

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Speaker 1: the Bobbitt Warm where they can just basically shoot out

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Speaker 1: a thing and like snap up. So uh do do

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Speaker 1: check out this video. I'm also including all of this

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Speaker 1: in the show notes as always, but there is a

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Speaker 1: cool video of them to video fighting. Okay, oh that

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Speaker 1: they are well, yeah they are. They are pretty their

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Speaker 1: sizeable there. Oh yeah, you'd see them. They're they're real.

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Speaker 1: Oh oh, you just stuck his tongue out. What are

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Speaker 1: the other one's gonna do it? I bet Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, he's so patient. Goodness, you gotta grit.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm whoa. In fact, their fights can be so

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Speaker 1: violent that they can rip the scales off of each other.

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Speaker 1: So a pretty like dark reboot of The Rainbow Fish

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Speaker 1: where it's just violently ripping off each other's scales. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: my scale, No, my scale. But yeah, that thing that

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Speaker 1: looks like a tongue like it's going like boop, that's

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Speaker 1: actually it's proboscis. And it has that gnarly set of

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Speaker 1: jaws in the center of it that it's using to

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Speaker 1: bite that other elvis worm. That is a lot. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a lot right there. Oh my gosh. I bet

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Speaker 1: you're wondering why they're so iridescent and shiny and beautiful.

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Speaker 1: That's that's I mean, that's you know, that's on the

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Speaker 1: list of questions mostly I I wonder it too, but

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Speaker 1: I don't know, and nobody knows. Isn't that fun When

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Speaker 1: I'm just like, hey, you wonder this thing. Sorry, nobody knows.

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Speaker 1: It's a literally don't you wish you could just ask them, like, hey,

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Speaker 1: what's up? Why are you guys so angry all the time?

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Speaker 1: What's with that weird like mouth boop thing that you do? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean, so they are actually blind. There's no reason

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Speaker 1: for them to need this eardescence for like com specific communication,

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Speaker 1: So like it's probably not for sexual selection or anything

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Speaker 1: like that because they can't see it. It's possible it's

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Speaker 1: for some some way of cryptsis, I suppose, seems unlikely.

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Speaker 1: It seems like it would just make them stick out. However,

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Speaker 1: in these deep sea and ironments, you never know, Like

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Speaker 1: how that I wonder, like maybe it interacts strangely with bioluminescence.

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Speaker 1: It's that's a possible thing, Like the refraction of bioluminescence

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Speaker 1: may have some advantage. My suspicion is that it actually

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Speaker 1: serves no purpose the actual visual of it. Rather, it's

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Speaker 1: just a byproduct of forming these tough scales. So like

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Speaker 1: having these very tough maybe crystalline structures and its scales

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Speaker 1: um the nature of having them really tough at this

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Speaker 1: molecular level also affects like how light um is refracted

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Speaker 1: off of the surface of these scales, so that would

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Speaker 1: be sort of my uh my gifts is just a

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Speaker 1: byproduct of making sure that these scales are really tough. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, like you think about how like a diamond

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Speaker 1: is really tough and it's beautiful and it's ring glittery. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it makes sense absolutely by with you. And I also

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Speaker 1: like that, you know, it's it's it's really subverting expectations,

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Speaker 1: like to be tough, you have to be glamorous, to

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Speaker 1: be first first, you mu Shine. Speaking of the bobbit worm,

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Speaker 1: twenty million year old fossilized tunnels have been discovered beneath

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Speaker 1: the ocean floor, over seven ft or two meters long,

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Speaker 1: but only a couple of centimeters wide in diameter. It's

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Speaker 1: thought that these were once home to an incredibly long worm,

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Speaker 1: perhaps the ancestors of the bobbit worm, as there's fossilized

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Speaker 1: imprints made by these worms that seem to indicate they

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Speaker 1: use these tunnels to drag their prey to an extra

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Speaker 1: deep in watery grave. When we return, we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about a thought provoking intersection of fashion and entomology.

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Speaker 1: So Danial, you know that animals and humans have a

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Speaker 1: weird relationship sometimes. Yeah. I mean, for instance, like my dog,

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Speaker 1: I think only sees me as like the peanut butter provider.

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Speaker 1: You know, at least the peanut butter warm blanket, right,

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Speaker 1: that's true, a warm blanket, peanut butter human radiator, a

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Speaker 1: butt scratcher and peanut provider, peanut butter provider. Oh, I'm

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Speaker 1: king butt scratcher. I'll tell you what I feel like.

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Speaker 1: That's what I feel like that if I'm being real.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's like, oh, that's a trick with dogs. They love

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Speaker 1: getting scratched on the butt. Like, at what point is

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Speaker 1: it not a trick anymore? It's like, oh, of course

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Speaker 1: a dog loves a good butt scratch right there. That's

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Speaker 1: just you know, that's it. That's that's baseline baseline dog

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Speaker 1: knowledge are they say, It's like it's like a Konami

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Speaker 1: code for a dog. I feel like the dogs are

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Speaker 1: really obvious about what I mean. Like my dog, Cookie,

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Speaker 1: Cookie will literally walk up she does this every day

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Speaker 1: all day, like this is her favorite thing to do,

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Speaker 1: not joking, walk up to you, turn around so her

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Speaker 1: butt is near you, and then look over her shoulder

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Speaker 1: as you know, like kind of look between you and

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Speaker 1: the butt like exactly you're doing it? Yeah, thinking about this, Yeah, scratch.

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Speaker 1: You can like hold your hand out and start wiggling

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Speaker 1: your fingers and she will come over and sort of

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Speaker 1: like dock her butt under your fingers and then so

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Speaker 1: you can scratch it. That is a that is a

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Speaker 1: smart that's smart Cookie you got raised there. Yeah, she's

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Speaker 1: smart whenever it serves her own answer. I love that.

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Speaker 1: A purpose like a purposely smart and stupid dog. That's like, Cookie,

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Speaker 1: we need to do this right now. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I'm a dog. I don't And then I say, do

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Speaker 1: you want to get your butt scratched? She knows that

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Speaker 1: she knows what that means. Oh, I want to get

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Speaker 1: my butt scratched at hearing that's what she knows what

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Speaker 1: a chicken pill is. When I she has these like

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Speaker 1: chicken flavored, chicken flavored to hip point supplements and if

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Speaker 1: you want to you want a chicken pill, she knows

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Speaker 1: what that means. When I say you gotta sit, you

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Speaker 1: didn't know what that means. That suddenly doesn't know what

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Speaker 1: that means. Have you seen that Simpson's episodes like the

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Speaker 1: Thing that Translates Baby talk, but are like translates animal talk,

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Speaker 1: like what is your animals saying it's like this leash

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Speaker 1: demeans us both a great I wait for that day.

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Speaker 1: I wait for that day where we get that where

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Speaker 1: we get the translation device. And Cookie was just saying, look,

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Speaker 1: I sit on my own schedule. Okay, right right, you

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Speaker 1: shall provide me with but scratch, cheese and peanut, But

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Speaker 1: are your services for anything else? Are not required? Not required?

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Speaker 1: But so that's all to say that I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about something that it's both really interesting and it

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Speaker 1: provokes a lot of thought in conversation. I think about,

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Speaker 1: like our relationship to animals, because we're talking about insects,

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Speaker 1: and are our feelings towards insects as a species can

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Speaker 1: range from like they are delicious food too they are

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Speaker 1: gross and I don't want anything to do with them,

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Speaker 1: to their beautiful jewelry. So I think one case that

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Speaker 1: really exemplifies this complex relationship we have with insects are

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Speaker 1: the beautiful bejeweled living beetle jewelry originating from the Yucatan

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Speaker 1: Peninsula in Mexico. So these living brooches are called mckesh

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Speaker 1: so they are beetles of the Zopharis genus, which is

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Speaker 1: a group of species of beetles who are kind of

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Speaker 1: long um with this very like thick exoskeleton. Um. They're

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Speaker 1: kind of shaped like bowling pins a little bit um.

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Speaker 1: In fact, they're exoskeleton is so tough. There is a

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Speaker 1: species called the ironclad beetle. And if you're trying to

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Speaker 1: mount them as a specimen, you know how like you

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Speaker 1: have like a butterfly specimen where you stick a pin

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Speaker 1: in it. They do that for all all sorts of insects. Um.

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Speaker 1: You actually have to drill a hole into them because

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Speaker 1: you can't just push a pin through it. They're they're

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Speaker 1: ship yeah, they're They're exoskeleton is that tough? So um,

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Speaker 1: they are flightless. They have this little stubby head around thorax,

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Speaker 1: so the thing that actually kind of looks like their

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Speaker 1: head is actually their thorax. And then they have a

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Speaker 1: long oval abdomen and they range in color from black

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Speaker 1: to sort of a black and white pattern, uh, lots

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Speaker 1: of other different colors. They also come in this like

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Speaker 1: really pretty gold color, not not a shining gold, but

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Speaker 1: kind of a matte gold. And it's this species this

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Speaker 1: kind of gold so fiter a species that is often

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Speaker 1: used for mckesh jewelry. So the jewelry is made by

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00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 1: taking a living beetle and gluing like rhinestones on it

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Speaker 1: or a variety of jewels or decorations on it, or

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Speaker 1: something like colorful thread or other ornaments. So there's like, um,

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Speaker 1: some adhesive is used, like some kind of glue, uh,

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Speaker 1: and then like you you bedazzle the beetle, and then

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Speaker 1: they attach a gold chain to the beetle just by

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00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 1: gluing it um. And then that's attached to like a

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00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 1: pin that you pin to your blouse, and the beetle

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Speaker 1: crawls around on your blouse. It's it's still alive and

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Speaker 1: just kind of like crawls around with all of this uh,

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Speaker 1: this sort of bedazzlement, and it's it's hard to know

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Speaker 1: like when the tradition started. There's a lot of like uh,

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Speaker 1: sort of mixed information on it. And it's you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that I'm comfortable, you know, saying anything

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Speaker 1: definitively because it doesn't seem like it's been studied definitively

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Speaker 1: in terms of like the orgins of the cultural practice.

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Speaker 1: This particular beetle, the mccash is actually the name of

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Speaker 1: the jewelry. But the zo faris beetle chosen because it's

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Speaker 1: got this kind of slow, sluggish nature. It's pretty chill um,

420
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: it's got that that pretty exoskeleton. But it can also

421
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 1: survive for months without food or water. So yeah, I know, so,

422
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's like, it sounds pretty creepy. So

423
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 1: we'll get two more of that. But first I want

424
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: to talk about the beetles in the wild. So in

425
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: the wild, the beetles live in dry forests and feed

426
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: on rotting wood starches. So we're talking about earlier. You know,

427
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 1: like the whale fall, well with tree fall he gets

428
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: tree fall is great for a lot of organisms and

429
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: forest environments. Uh, these beetles are one of them. They

430
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: have a metabolism that allows them to survive on small

431
00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: amounts of starch and very little water. So in theory,

432
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: if you treat a mckesh beetle right like you have

433
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: a terrarium, and you provide them with some starch and

434
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 1: just like a little bit of water like a moist sponge,

435
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: you can keep them alive for their whole lifespan of

436
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: about three years um. But of course there's a few

437
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: catches to this, as there are for most things when

438
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: we when we're talking about using animals for our own purposes,

439
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: First and foremost is that they can spew formic acid

440
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: out of their anus. Great. I mean actually, to me,

441
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: that's like a benefit. Like I want a brooch that

442
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: like you know, like I kind of poke it and

443
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: it just like sprays out formic acid. That's that's a

444
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: great James Bond weapon. That is a great James Bond weapon.

445
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: Very like, Now, what are the what are the effects

446
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 1: of that kind of acid on on your skin? Or?

447
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 1: Is it smelly? Is it? Is it? It's unpleasant? It

448
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: gives you Yeah, it could give you a bad skin rash,

449
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: like not a fun time. Yeah you should you shouldn't,

450
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: you know, try not to get it. Yeah, you don't

451
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: want to get it on on you. Um. Traditionally, that

452
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: issue has been solved by making the Beatles very tiny diapers,

453
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 1: like a little cloth. Yeah, like a little cloth diaper

454
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: that goes near their backside and just sort of absorbs

455
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: up that thing, the the formic acid. Unfortunately, I was

456
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: reading something that seemed to indicate I don't know how

457
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: true this is, but there was some like rumor about

458
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: like how some vendors will use glue to actually seal

459
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: up the the anus and then that's bad, like you

460
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: can't do that, it's it'll it'll kill the beetle um.

461
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: And so of course, I think the the issue that

462
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: is probably on a lot of people's minds is like, well,

463
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: is this cruel? Is this cruelty towards these beetles? And

464
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: I think it's really it's a really complex issue. And

465
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: I think whenever there's like a different cultural practice than

466
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: our own, it's really easy for us to go like, oh,

467
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: this is cruel or this is this is strange. It's

468
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: like too strange, because you know, it's like it's not

469
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: normalized in our society, so like like in the way

470
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: that a lot of our practices towards animals are like

471
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: you know, so I think that the fact like it's

472
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: living jewelry is so such an unusual concept that I

473
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: think it's easier to think of it as like, oh, man,

474
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: that's unnecessary and kind of cruel. But then you think

475
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: about a lot of the things that we do in

476
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: our culture. We kill insects all the time, and not

477
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: super nice ways. We also you know, just in our homes,

478
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: like we kill pests all the time. Look, I'm not

479
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: above killing you know, ants who try to eat all

480
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: my cereal. I would be lying if I said I

481
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: hadn't killed a bug before. That's it's foolish. I I

482
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: do my best to be you know, sympathetic, especially to

483
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: our spider friends who do a lot of the bug

484
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: killing for us. But like, look, I've I've smashed the flies.

485
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: I've smashed them bugs. That's just no matter. I'm not

486
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: I'm not innocent. I try to relocate spiders whenever I

487
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: find them, But I have to admit, like a few

488
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: weeks ago, I saw a pretty big spider and just

489
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: instinctively stomped it, like I didn't even think. And then

490
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: immediately after some I was like, oh, I'm so sure

491
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: that immediate us. So, you know, we we kill insects

492
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: all the time, and so you know, I feel like

493
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: this aspect of like, oh it's really cruel to do

494
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: this is somewhat relative. The other argument would be like, well,

495
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: but you know, we kill insects maybe out of necessity.

496
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: Keeping them as an ornament in this way like seems

497
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: sort of unnecessary. It's like, well, we also have things

498
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: like we have state fairs where we have food animals

499
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: there for you know, entertainment purposes, and like we'll we'll

500
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: have like petting zoos with animals that will eventually go

501
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: and be used for food. So I guess my point is,

502
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: like they're certainly complaints you can have about certain cultural

503
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: practices when it comes to animals, but I'm always hesitant

504
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: to like point the finger at another culture or it's like, ah,

505
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: see this this thing that they do that we don't do,

506
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: Like that that's super that's super weird, you know what

507
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: I mean. Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's I think

508
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: that's completely fair. My only complaint would be that I

509
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: think the I mean, maybe it's you know, and and

510
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: as I explore the culture of this a little bit more,

511
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: and I see in your picture down here, there's definitely Katie.

512
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: But by the way, for all the listeners, Katie has

513
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: provided excellent resources for the for the guests to look

514
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: at it and and get familiar with and just like

515
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: see what is what what we're talking about. I'm surprised

516
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:48,719
Speaker 1: these people aren't going further with the bug itself, like

517
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, like at a little top hat

518
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: or yeah, or just like it. Maybe it may it

519
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: might just be the video, but it's like this seems

520
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: pretty like Ryan Stones on gold chains kind of ship

521
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: when we could get some real like I mean, you know,

522
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: if this is a cultural thing here, I could see

523
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: some like Swarovski ass like really glitzed up, glitzed up

524
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: bugs crawling around on your chest, premium bugs. Premium bugs. Yeah,

525
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: I mean I think that. I mean, these aren't necessarily

526
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: super super fancy things, like they you know, they often

527
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: sell them for not that much money, like it could

528
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: be like chin us dollars or something. Uh, and you

529
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: know it's it's also often sold to tourists, so I'm

530
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: not super clear on how much of it is directed

531
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: towards tourists to the area, and like how much of

532
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: it is that locals do just sort of as a

533
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: local tradition. So it's you know, I can't pretend to

534
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: be a cultural expert on this, and I couldn't quite

535
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: suss that out in my research. But there is one

536
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: thing that that the artists who do this do seem

537
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: to try to do is they don't like inhibit the

538
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 1: Beatles movements, so they keep it like to the backs

539
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: of the Beatles, So they don't like put it, you know,

540
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: like on their actual heads, Like it looks like it's

541
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: on their heads, but that's actually their thorax and they

542
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: don't like put it on their legs or anything. So

543
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: they can because like the point is for them to

544
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: still be able to move around as long as they're

545
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: not putting glue on the butt. I don't think I mean,

546
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: I'm sure that like the bejeeling of the Beatles isn't

547
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: great for the Beatles, but I don't think it necessarily, Um,

548
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: is that all that harmful again because they have that

549
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: really thick exoskeleton. Uh, the harmful thing would be, of

550
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: course if you don't like feed it or or you know,

551
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: like you know, actually keep it in a terrarium, if

552
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: you just kind of like keep it in a drawer

553
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: for a few months until it dies like that, then

554
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: the beetle will not survive. That For me, I guess

555
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: like the main the main issue I think that needs

556
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: to be explored by ecologists, which I mean is they

557
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: are doing. I'm not scolding them like a cologists get

558
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,479
Speaker 1: on this, but is whether or not like this is

559
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: sustainable for the beetle population, because like on a local level,

560
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: it's probably fine, but if it gains a huge amount

561
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,399
Speaker 1: of popularity with tourists, um collection of the beatles may

562
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 1: exceed their ability to reproduce. The beatles are really like

563
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: they have a very slow lifespan compared to other insects

564
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: like they they it takes them a long time to

565
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: reach sexual maturation. They don't lay a huge amount of eggs.

566
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: It's hard to estimate their population size because they like

567
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 1: to live under logs, like under leaf litter and logs,

568
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 1: so like, actually finding them is kind of difficult. So

569
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: getting a good sort of census of how many of

570
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 1: these beetles are out there is actually quite tricky. Um

571
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,240
Speaker 1: But because they don't seem to reproduce that rapidly, there's

572
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: fear that without some regulation, like, there could be over

573
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: collection of the the beatles and that would endanger their population,

574
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 1: which I think just kind of shows how like it's

575
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:05,479
Speaker 1: really important for ecologists and biologists to work with people

576
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: who study human culture to be able to come together

577
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: and research things together so that we can like figure

578
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: out ways to both preserve human culture but also preserve nature.

579
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: Teamwork makes the dream work. I couldn't have said it

580
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 1: better myself. The mckeesh is not the only insect worn

581
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 1: as jewelry. In ancient Egypt, scared of beetles were worn

582
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 1: by soldiers to offer them spiritual protection. And in two

583
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: thousand and six, fashion designer Jared Gold included giant hissing

584
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: cockroaches in his collection, basically copying the style of the

585
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: mckesh broaches by bedazzling his cockroaches with Swarovski crystals and

586
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: keeping them on a golden chain. These runaway ready cockroaches

587
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: came with instructions of how to care for them and

588
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: could live for over a year. Personally, I'm content to

589
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: just admire the natural beauty of hissing copproaches from nature photographs.

590
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 1: When we return, we're going to investigate a lizard. There's

591
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: aquatic fashion is all about function. So now I want

592
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 1: to talk about an extremely glamorous lizard that I think

593
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 1: gifts like David Bowie a run for his money in

594
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: terms of like how incredibly shiny they are and also

595
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 1: just how I don't know, you know, how like like

596
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 1: the Space Odyssey thing. Well, these lizards like to go

597
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:46,760
Speaker 1: under the water and be a little little diver diverman, Okay,

598
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 1: what's the what's the David Bowie thing. It's like Rocketman, right, yeah,

599
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 1: rocket Where is that? Dalton John? You think of the

600
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: ziggy Stardust? Yeah, I mean like that's very Yeah, David

601
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: Bowie is super super glam. Elton John glam rock not

602
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,839
Speaker 1: really is he. I'm gonna google is Elton John glam rock?

603
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: This is very important for an evolutionary biology podcast to

604
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: know whether Elton John or not. I would say so

605
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 1: other performers associated with British glam I see, I see,

606
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it depends on whether you're using

607
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: the phylogenetic classification system or the Linnean classification system of

608
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: glam rock. I mean, I'll say this. You know, look,

609
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: the only people who are going to get mad at

610
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: you about someone being or not being glam rock are

611
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: the Yeah, exactly aggressive glam rock. British glam was very

612
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: strictly different from US glam rock, and I think that

613
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 1: needs to be noted. It actually fits more in the

614
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: mod category. Thing keep very much, but he's certainly glamorous

615
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: and certainly a rocker. We'll go. We'll definitely go with that.

616
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 1: Instead of spending time in outer space in a space suit,

617
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 1: these lizards like to spend time underwater in a water

618
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: suit or an air suit anyways, a diver suit, a

619
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 1: diver suit. So these are water annolies a k a.

620
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: Scuba diving lizards. So, water annolies are a species of

621
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: small lizards found in Costa Rica in Central America. They're

622
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: pretty small. They're about the size of a thumb. They're brown,

623
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: although males do have this brilliant yellow dew lap. So

624
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,959
Speaker 1: what's a dow lap. It's a flap of skin under

625
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: their chin they can fan out, which they use to

626
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 1: attract females and intimidate males. What I mean, have you

627
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: ever seen a lizard like like kind of stunt in like,

628
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: you know, flapping out lap? For sure? For sure? You know,

629
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: for a second I thought, so, I'm you know, not

630
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 1: skipping ahead, per se. But I'm looking at this picture

631
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: and I thought for a split second that it's dow lap.

632
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: Was the clear thing coming out of its nose, which

633
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,800
Speaker 1: is an air bubble, that is bubble. He's got the

634
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: dow lap on the top of his head. Now it's

635
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 1: clear and you can breathe it. I think I forgot

636
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: to include an image of the dow lap, but it's

637
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: very pretty. It's like brilliant yellow. The ladies love a

638
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: dow lap. The ladies loved but because these little lizards

639
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,720
Speaker 1: are such tasty little snacks, not just for the females

640
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: of their species, but um, you know, for predators, and

641
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: they're not like the fastest lizards in the land. They

642
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 1: will take to the water to escape predators. They'll literally

643
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: leap off of a rock and billy flop into the water.

644
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,399
Speaker 1: And so once underwater they are safe from a lot

645
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: of terrestrial or airborne predators. But they need to breathe

646
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: because you know, they can't can't breathe water. These are reptiles.

647
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: They are They do not um although you know, there

648
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,720
Speaker 1: are some reptiles like um turtles who do do gas

649
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: exchange near an area near their cloaca a k. Their

650
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: butt hole. Um. But these lizards cannot. We have no

651
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: evidence to suggest that these lizards can breathe through their

652
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 1: butt holes like turtles. I know, darn it. I hate

653
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 1: it when I'm like swimming and I'm like, wait, let

654
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: me try, let me try it for a second. Can't

655
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 1: I can't do it. I can't breathe through my butt

656
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 1: So they have a problem because they either stand or

657
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 1: water and drown or they go above the water and

658
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: get eaten by a predator. So there is recent observations

659
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: of these lizards that seem to suggest that they can

660
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: create a wetsuit made out of air and form a

661
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: bubble around their head that they can breathe through. This

662
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: is I you know, truly again, your research is so good.

663
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: You've vided videos. I could not even imagine what this

664
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: would look like, but now I have a video to

665
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: look at, and it is extraordinary. I'm like blown away

666
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: that they're able to, like what is holding the water

667
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: to their face this way? That's a really good question.

668
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: And while I haven't been able to find studies that

669
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 1: are really exact about it, I would say that it

670
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: is very similar to other times that we see water

671
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: adhering to animals underwater. So with their diving bell spiders

672
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,839
Speaker 1: that can actually go underwater and water, they will also

673
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: form these kind of underwater For the spiders, it's like

674
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,399
Speaker 1: this diving bell that this little bubble that surrounds them

675
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: that they can do gas exchange through. And the for them,

676
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: the air sticks to these teeny tiny little hairs all

677
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: over their bodies. Um, So the air literally sticks to

678
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: these really small fine hairs. For these lizards, I don't

679
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 1: think they rely on hair. Rather, I think it's the

680
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,839
Speaker 1: skin texture. So I think they have these probably these

681
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: really tiny st ructures on their skin, like these little tiny,

682
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: probably microscopic indentations and texture on their skin that actually

683
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: traps air on their skin and holds onto it through

684
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: sort of a manner of surface tension. I mean, even

685
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: like when you dive underwater, sometimes little bubbles can stick

686
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 1: to your skin and you can see little air bubbles

687
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,240
Speaker 1: still sticking to you. Um, But like for these lizards,

688
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: their skin is such that I think it's probably have

689
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: really small structures on their skin that that uh is

690
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 1: able to really cling onto this water such that you

691
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: look at these lizards and underwater it looks like they

692
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: have this whole silvery sheen all over it, like their

693
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: skin is made out of a mirror like material, and

694
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: that's all that trapped air all over their body, reflecting

695
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:57,879
Speaker 1: light underwater like a mirror. That's so cool. Yeah, they're like,

696
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,919
Speaker 1: it's it's it's beautiful. It's one of those things were like, wow,

697
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: why do they look this cool? And then they come

698
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: out of water and you're like, okay, hey, you know

699
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,760
Speaker 1: what I'll save it, save it for the underwater crowd.

700
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: You know, if they want to be less less shiny

701
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: on top, the underwater crowd, they deserve it more. They're

702
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: not trying to eat you as much. Yeah. Um. So

703
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: they can form this bubble around their head. And while

704
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 1: this the research on this is by no means complete,

705
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 1: so this is all conjecture at this point, there's this

706
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 1: idea that their heads have this kind of concave structure

707
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: just so this air bubble can form, like this pocket

708
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:42,359
Speaker 1: can form um over their nostrils and when they like

709
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: breathe out, it kind of bubbles up and they breathe in,

710
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 1: and then it kind of bubbles down. So it's like

711
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: this little bubble going up and down as they breathe.

712
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 1: That's that's so wild. Again, if I didn't have this video,

713
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be able to put it together. I mean,

714
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: you know, I can understand and imagine, but it's just

715
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 1: like it's truly a bubble coming off of their face

716
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,760
Speaker 1: and then just sucking back in, right, you know. Wild,

717
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: Like have you ever like blown a bubble with some

718
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:13,760
Speaker 1: bubble gum and instead of just like blowing the bubble,

719
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 1: you kind of like breathe in and out. You're like, yeah,

720
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 1: when you do like a Darth Vader and voice like

721
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,720
Speaker 1: I'm sure to chop off hands and chew bubble gum

722
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 1: and I'm all out of bubble gum? Could you imagine?

723
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 1: I want to see that re cut? But yeah, I

724
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 1: mean your reaction is kind of similar to researchers who

725
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 1: discovered this because they just incidentally discovered that they that

726
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 1: they seem to breathe this way through observations. They put

727
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 1: underwater cameras down there because they noticed that some of

728
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 1: these lizards would like dive underwater and then they would

729
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 1: pop up a few feet away, but some of them

730
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: would dive underwater and then just disappear, and they're like,

731
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: now that can't be right, Like that can't be a

732
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 1: good survival strategy to just drown yourself whenever a predator

733
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 1: comes at you. So sure enough, they they found that

734
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 1: these guys can spend up to about fifteen minutes underwater,

735
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: and using these underwater cameras, they found this this behavior

736
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: of like them seeming to breathe through these bubbles. Now

737
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: it hasn't been like scientifically proven that they are actually

738
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: breathing through these bubbles. It's just observation, like you looking

739
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 1: at this video, um, but it seems fairly likely that

740
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: that's the case, because that seems to be what's going on. Hm.

741
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: And also because they can last so so long underwater,

742
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 1: it seems like this helps them last longer without having

743
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: to hold their breath the whole time. Wow, these are

744
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: These are fascinating little beasts right here. They really are.

745
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: You've really done it. And they're so shiny. I love

746
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: how just like they have like mere skin, you know

747
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 1: what I mean totally the shine especially like again of

748
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,280
Speaker 1: that it's primarily for the underwater crowd. It's like they're

749
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:08,280
Speaker 1: just so so so shiny and it am I almost

750
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: feel like you would mistake it. I mean mistaken, but

751
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: like you might think that there's like a small like

752
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: pocket knife in the water if you were to look

753
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: and see just like the body of one of these

754
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: long guys down, they're just like whoa that is yeah, yeah,

755
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: my gosh. I do. I Also, I do like the

756
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,280
Speaker 1: idea that like above water, it's like yeah, but underwater

757
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 1: it's like Miley Cyrus turning into Hannah Montana. That's where

758
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 1: they shine. But yeah, it's like Miley Cyrus whatever, just

759
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 1: normal girls, and then she turned into Hanna Montanna. Wow. Well,

760
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: I think we I think we've done it. I think

761
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 1: we've found some of the coolest glam rockers in the

762
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,399
Speaker 1: annual Kingdom. These are truly glamorous animals you have shared

763
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: with me today, Katie. I'm touched. These are awesome. Thank you.

764
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: I do before we go, I do want to address

765
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: a listener question. So listener IZZYB writes in and says, hey,

766
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 1: creature peeps, There's been a meme Twitter thread popping up

767
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 1: now and again claiming that the Uncanny Valley exists as

768
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 1: a deep psychological remnant from our early hominid ancestors interspecies

769
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: competition for resources. So frequently these conversations use the idea

770
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 1: that animals, even our own pets, don't experience the Uncanny

771
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 1: Valley as proof, but that rings false to me. I

772
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: am a puppet maker and have lots of Sorry. I

773
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: love it. I love this email so much. I love

774
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 1: it when you guys right into me. Um. When I

775
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 1: when I was reading this and then I got to

776
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: I am a puppet maker, Like, I almost screamed in excitement. Anyways,

777
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to continue reading this, but like sorry. I

778
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 1: am a puppet maker and have lots of experience of

779
00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 1: dogs and cats absolutely losing their their quack in terror

780
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: of puppets, usually human based puppets, but sometimes those based

781
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 1: on other animals. What is this if not the uncanny valley,

782
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: the mental rejection and innate fear of something that resembles

783
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: the familiar but doesn't achieve a fully believable resemblance. As

784
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 1: someone familiar with animal psychology, I was wondering if you

785
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 1: had any thoughts on the matter. On a completely different

786
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 1: note of the arc of the universe bending towards crab,

787
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: one of our latest puppets is a massive crab dragon.

788
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 1: Although it fails to copy the evolutionary perfect crab body plan,

789
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: it is painted to look like a coconut crab. We

790
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 1: were even listening to the Carsonization episode while painting her.

791
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 1: Here are pictures, Izzy B. Thank you so much. Izzy. These.

792
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: When you said you were a puppet maker, I was excited.

793
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 1: I love puppets. I it's I mean like but I

794
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 1: was expecting a small puppet, which I was still excited for.

795
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 1: I was still really excited for. This is a life sized,

796
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:07,839
Speaker 1: freaking dragon. It's massive, it's three people are operating this thing.

797
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: It's a huge, actual real life dragon puppet, the size

798
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 1: of a freaking real life dragon, and and it is

799
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:22,919
Speaker 1: painted like a coconut crab. It's absolutely beautiful. It's amazing,

800
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 1: and I, if possible, I am going to include a

801
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: link to these photos in the show notes. It's I'm

802
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 1: so blown away by this. This is a beautiful puppet.

803
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: I actually like a note about the Uncanny Valley before

804
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 1: I get into answering the question. I actually love the

805
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 1: Uncanny Valley, Like I actively seek out feeling that feeling.

806
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: It's a it's a fun, exciting feeling for me. It's like, now,

807
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,240
Speaker 1: I don't like roller coasters, Like I hate roller coasters.

808
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:55,359
Speaker 1: They scare me. Um, But I imagine the feeling that

809
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: other people get when they go on a roller coaster,

810
00:49:57,520 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: of like that it's like kind of scary but exciting,

811
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 1: real that thrilled. That's what I get from like looking

812
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 1: at weird animatronics or Uncanny Valley things. I love animatronics,

813
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 1: I love puppets. I just love that feeling of like

814
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 1: there's a certain sort of awfulness to this thing. It's

815
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 1: like not quite a human, but it's almost a human

816
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 1: like I really it's just thrilling for me. So this

817
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 1: is a really exciting thing for me. This is an

818
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 1: incredible puppet These are these are true. This is truly

819
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: you know, I would totally expect to see this at

820
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 1: the front of a very well produced parade. This is

821
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:34,919
Speaker 1: like or you know of a like it's a puppet show.

822
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:38,399
Speaker 1: Not like a puppet show though, but like like a CC. Yeah,

823
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: it's definitely a circlet production. Yeah. No, it's it's the

824
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: centerpiece right here. This is like The Dark Crystal, you

825
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 1: know what I mean. I loved by the way I

826
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 1: love The Dark Crystal loved I al feel like the

827
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 1: year the reboot, the remake or not remake with Yes,

828
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: I haven't checked out there, it's good. I liked it. Yeah,

829
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 1: if you liked the the original one, you'll definitely like

830
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 1: the remake. It's or not remake. It's just a reboot,

831
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: but it definitely recaptures sort of the it's it's all

832
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: practical effects. It's really really beautiful. In terms of the

833
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: question about whether animals feel the Uncanny Valley, I actually

834
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 1: really agree with this listener. I think that we don't.

835
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 1: While we don't necessarily have evidence that says that animals

836
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 1: definitely do, uh feel the Uncanny Valley. It's like hard

837
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 1: to you know, uh quantify what an animal is feeling.

838
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 1: I definitely think that animals would have the capacity to

839
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 1: feel that based on uh certain animal behavior. So some

840
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,399
Speaker 1: of the things that we know, like, well, first of all,

841
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 1: this is maybe not super scientific, but I've definitely seen

842
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 1: a lot of videos of cats on like TikTok and

843
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: stuff reacting to their owners having a like a cat

844
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 1: filter on their face, you know, like a snapchat or

845
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 1: it's like a cat a cat face like filter on

846
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 1: their face. So it looks like the human has a

847
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 1: cat face on the phone, and the cats like look

848
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 1: at the phone, look really startled, look back at their

849
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:12,839
Speaker 1: human and look at the phone and like run away. So, uh,

850
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 1: that's that's interesting to me, that the cats get really

851
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,800
Speaker 1: freaked out, um by humans wearing like a cat cat

852
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 1: makeup or or having that like cat filter. Of course,

853
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 1: that's that's that's totally anecdotal. Uh less anecdotal, I think,

854
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 1: is well now I guess it still anecdote. Anyways, Another

855
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,800
Speaker 1: thing that we've seen is like there's this TV show

856
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: called Spies in the Wild where they put like animal yeah,

857
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 1: Spy in the wild. It's they it's it's hilarious but

858
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 1: also a great nature documentary. They create these animatronic versions

859
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 1: of animals so that they can have cameras like watching

860
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 1: the animals up close. But it's also kind of funny

861
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: because like most of the camera work in the show

862
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 1: isn't from the animatronic animals. It seems like that's something

863
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:06,439
Speaker 1: of a chemic, but it's still really interesting. I think

864
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: the most interesting part of the show is not like

865
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 1: the up close shots that these animatronics get, but it's

866
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: the reactions that the animals have to the animatronics. So

867
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 1: a lot of animals don't seem to really think anything

868
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 1: of it, but once you start to get to primates,

869
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 1: their reactions are very interesting. There are these langers that

870
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 1: were very tentatively playing with this animatronic linger, and then

871
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 1: it fell down and like broke and stopped moving, and

872
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 1: then a bunch of Lingers all came over that this

873
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: uh Lingers are a type of monkey, and they came

874
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,839
Speaker 1: and surrounded this thing, like like twenty or thirty of them,

875
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: just like looking and like carefully touching it and looking.

876
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 1: It was almost it looked like they were holding a

877
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:49,719
Speaker 1: funeral almost, but it was like I think they were

878
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 1: just so freaked out and fascinated by what this was,

879
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:55,720
Speaker 1: where like it seems kind of like a dead monkey,

880
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 1: but they weren't sure what it was, but they were

881
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 1: fascinated and and it seemed kind of freaked out. So

882
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 1: I think that And you also look at like things

883
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 1: that we have done research on where dogs seem to

884
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 1: pay particular attention to human faces on the side of

885
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: the face that's more expressive, Like we're not our expressions

886
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:22,800
Speaker 1: are not completely symmetrical, Like there's usually one side of

887
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 1: the face that is a little more expressive, and the

888
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,320
Speaker 1: dogs seem to prefer that side of the face. Um,

889
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 1: And so I think that that kind of like facial recognition.

890
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 1: And it's the whole kind of concept of this idea

891
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 1: that like only humans would be in some sort of

892
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 1: like competition with other hominids. That doesn't make any sense,

893
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 1: Like there are so many species who have very similar

894
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 1: species that they are in competition with. I mean, like

895
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,800
Speaker 1: you know, canines like you like wolves and other canads

896
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: would be in competition, you know, I mean like a

897
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 1: dog in a coyote like Kyo will often kill dogs,

898
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 1: so like they have to be very careful around each other.

899
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 1: Different kind of feline species like uh, you know, uh,

900
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 1: cheetah is no friend to like a lion. So it's

901
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 1: you know, it's um, they're all sorts of competition amongst

902
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 1: species that maybe don't look exactly like each other, but

903
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 1: are somewhat similar. So this idea that the uncanny Valley

904
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 1: evolved in humans because we were competing with other species

905
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:31,839
Speaker 1: and we had to be aware of like ones that

906
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 1: were kind of off. It's like, well, I would say

907
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 1: that would apply to you know, most most intelligent social animals. Great,

908
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 1: I support that entirely. I don't. I obviously do not

909
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:45,240
Speaker 1: have a professional opinion on the matter, but I would

910
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: like to think that, like you know, obviously language is

911
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 1: something that is created by humans for humans. Um, but

912
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 1: I think for to be for the suggestion to be

913
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 1: that dogs and and you know, certain animals don't have

914
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:05,800
Speaker 1: the capability to semi recognize something or have to wrestle

915
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: with something is recognizable or not. I think, you know,

916
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 1: to say, do they experience the uncanny Valley? It's like, well,

917
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 1: they don't. They don't call it that, but they know

918
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:17,879
Speaker 1: when something is there and doesn't it's like, this is

919
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:21,920
Speaker 1: not quite right, this is not I'm confused by this.

920
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 1: I support you entirely. I think it's I think it's

921
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 1: in fact, there there's a study, uh, there's a study

922
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 1: of machex that looked at their eye gays of like

923
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 1: computer generated images of macax and like ones that were like, uh,

924
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 1: sort of realistic, actually kind of cartoonists. They sort of

925
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 1: looked at a little bit, didn't really seem to care.

926
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,839
Speaker 1: They're real photos they looked at for a long time

927
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 1: because they were interested. But ones that were almost exactly

928
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 1: realistic but not quite they were like c g I.

929
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:57,759
Speaker 1: They didn't like to look at it all. They like

930
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 1: spent as little time looking at it as possible, which

931
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's hard to know exactly how to

932
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 1: interpret those results. But one way of interpreting them is

933
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 1: that they did not enjoy looking at that that c

934
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:14,319
Speaker 1: g I version of the the macaque, and so they

935
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 1: would avert their gaze because they found it unpleasant, which

936
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 1: is how humans experienced the Uncanny Valley. So I would

937
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: say this has not been researched enough to really say definitively,

938
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 1: but I think all the research that we have as

939
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 1: well as general trends and animal behavior, I think would

940
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 1: indicate that, yeah, this could definitely happen for animals, and

941
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 1: I don't see any reason to rule it out for animals. Right,

942
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 1: That's why my dog hates Polar Express movie. I thought

943
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 1: it was just because she hated Tom Hanks, but I

944
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 1: think it's all those all those weird kids. It's all

945
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 1: those weird looking kids. That's funny, that's wonderful. Also, when

946
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 1: I make a weird noise, she gives me such a look,

947
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 1: like she does a little head turning things. But like

948
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 1: if I do sort of a weird whistling noise, like

949
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 1: where I'm kind of sucking errand through my teeth or

950
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 1: something in a weird way, or or if I blow

951
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 1: across a bottle and it makes that like weird hoot

952
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 1: you noise, like she just like she looks at me

953
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 1: like I've been possessed, and she's clearly she's like she's interested,

954
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 1: but she's concerned. I've been bewitched. Totally totally different noise,

955
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 1: I'm unfamiliar. And she hates it when people ride on

956
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 1: bikes or skateboards, like really just it's something like about

957
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:37,920
Speaker 1: the human going faster than they should that, like she

958
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 1: loses her mind over she hates so much. Like you're

959
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,640
Speaker 1: a human but way too fast. This isn't right. Why

960
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 1: is one part of you moving but the other parts

961
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 1: of you are not? What's up with that? It's a

962
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 1: bicycle human centaur? Evil? I'll bite off its legs. What

963
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 1: the devilment is this? Yeah? Amazing? Well I think that'll

964
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 1: do it for today. Thank you so much for this email.

965
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:08,680
Speaker 1: Love the pictures of the puppet. I will share those.

966
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 1: And yeah, if you haven't have a question and you

967
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 1: want me to answer it, uh, send an email to

968
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 1: Creature Feature Pod at gmail dot com and I will

969
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:22,919
Speaker 1: either try to answer it over the email or even

970
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,920
Speaker 1: on the show. So yeah, thank you so much for that.

971
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 1: And Daniel, thank you so much for being on here today.

972
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure. It's

973
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 1: such a great show, one of my favorite podcast. Honored

974
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 1: to be included. Oh my goodness, thank you so much.

975
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 1: You used to you used to engineer the dang thing.

976
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 1: Did used to engineer the dank thing. But then we

977
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 1: got so you know, I got so big and busy.

978
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 1: They spread spread us all out there. They're like, Danny

979
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:48,560
Speaker 1: can't do that anymore, you gotta go do this other thing.

980
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:50,400
Speaker 1: I'm like that. But the bright side is now we've

981
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 1: got Zack. Hear you, guys, he's um, he's actually he's

982
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 1: actually shrouded by waves. He's actually he's actually adolphins, so

983
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 1: he can only speak in squeals and ease yes and

984
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 1: the confettia emotions saying saying yes, I engineered lovely. Yeah,

985
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:17,800
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Where can people

986
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:21,800
Speaker 1: find you? You can find me on Twitter at dj

987
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 1: Underscore damil and you can find me on Twitch at

988
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 1: the same twitch dot tv slash dj Underscore d A

989
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,880
Speaker 1: n L and check it out. We do fun stuff. Yeah. Yeah,

990
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 1: and listen the podcast shoot listen to Creature feature. I

991
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: mean you're already here, so great job. Check out the

992
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 1: other podcast on the network. Yeah, check out other podcasts

993
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 1: on the network. Uh, thank you guys so much for listening. Um.

994
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:45,120
Speaker 1: You can find us on the internet at Creature Creature

995
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:48,200
Speaker 1: Pod on Instagram at Creature feet Pod on Twitter. That's

996
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:53,960
Speaker 1: et that is something very different. Uh and as always,

997
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 1: I'm Katie Golden. You can find me on Twitter just

998
01:00:56,560 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 1: for my Katie thoughts and uh, yeah, thank you so

999
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:02,480
Speaker 1: much to the space Classics for their super awesome song

1000
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 1: x Alumina. That song is great. I know it's so

1001
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 1: good it can get Can I get it? A corny

1002
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 1: joke before we leave? Do it? Do it? Do it?

1003
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 1: Since sind you said creature feet, You're like, no, it's

1004
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 1: create your feet. F e A T, not f e T.

1005
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 1: That's a different website. That website is only Finns than you.

1006
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:31,360
Speaker 1: Don't never apologize. Thank you so much for that. Oh

1007
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 1: my god, thank you so much. Creature Feature is a

1008
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:36,840
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio for more podcasts like the

1009
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 1: one you just heard because at the iHeart Radio app,

1010
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 1: Apple podcast or Hey guess what where have you listen

1011
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows? See your next ones day Only

1012
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 1: finn