Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.
Speaker 1: Today's episode is brought to you by our friends over
Speaker 1: at zero Restriction. I'm actually out at Bandoned Dunes as
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Speaker 1: joined by Michael Kaiser Junior. This is an exciting conversation.
Speaker 1: Michael and I talk every once in a while on
Speaker 1: the phone, and we always end up having really long,
Speaker 1: interesting discussions about bevies of topics that you know, range
Speaker 1: the depths of architecture to just random things. And I
Speaker 1: always thought it would be just good to have a
Speaker 1: conversation just like our phone conversation. So that's kind of
Speaker 1: how I modeled this this interview with Michael, and I
Speaker 1: hope you guys enjoy it. I miss a green, for example,
Speaker 1: I'm already upset when I find my ball in the bunker,
Speaker 1: I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in a.
Speaker 2: Fried egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg Frida egg
Speaker 2: Frida egg egg Frida egg bride egg.
Speaker 1: Lie, I'm about ready to run off with the hup.
Speaker 1: How how do you go tell us about how your
Speaker 1: menu tasting when you're trying to figure out what food
Speaker 1: to have at Sand Valley? How do you guys go
Speaker 1: about critiquing?
Speaker 2: And this is really hard work we're talking about here, Andy.
Speaker 1: I mean, I got to sit in on one of
Speaker 1: these and.
Speaker 2: Look, it starts with the pant choice you know you
Speaker 2: need an elastic waste. It all starts, It all starts
Speaker 2: with the pants. I like to wear sweatpants when I'm
Speaker 2: doing them.
Speaker 1: Menu tasting, I remember I had to drive after it
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh god, I'm really sleepy.
Speaker 2: When we were first interviewing chefs for Sand Valley, I
Speaker 2: remember the first tasting I did was in Chicago and
Speaker 2: three entrees came out. It was like there were three
Speaker 2: big proteins, you know, two steaks and you know, pork
Speaker 2: chops or something, and I was just hungry and it
Speaker 2: was delicious, so I ate, you know, all three of
Speaker 2: them in their entirety. So three enormous entrees. You know,
Speaker 2: we had eight courses left, so that was an important lesson. Look,
Speaker 2: we just eat the food and we try to get
Speaker 2: you know, a broad perspective. You know, there's six or
Speaker 2: eight people hopefully they're you know, representative of our guests. Uh,
Speaker 2: and we all share, you know, what we like about them,
Speaker 2: what we don't like about them, so that you know,
Speaker 2: that's that's the process. That's pretty simple.
Speaker 1: Do you ever regret, you know, how you think back
Speaker 1: about an item and say, God, I wish we would
Speaker 1: have have kept that. Remember that.
Speaker 2: No, No, we keep all the winners. You know, we
Speaker 2: listen to our guests and we know what people like,
Speaker 2: and we we I don't want to call them losers,
Speaker 2: but we drop the losers. We keep all the winners.
Speaker 2: So every everything that's been dropped for our menu deserve
Speaker 2: to be dropped in. The winners are still on our
Speaker 2: port shank. We're not getting rid of our port shank.
Speaker 2: We're not getting rid of Grandma's meat loaf abandoned there.
Speaker 1: They're losers. They deserve to be dropped. So when you
Speaker 1: were in college, you and when you came out of college,
Speaker 1: you didn't go straight into golf. What were you doing?
Speaker 2: No? I did go straight into golf. Yeah, for a year,
Speaker 2: and then I left it, So I moved. When I
Speaker 2: was in college my jobs I worked at Bandon Dune's
Speaker 2: I was. I started on the maintenance crew, which I loved,
Speaker 2: but at four seventy three an hour, and then after taxes,
Speaker 2: I realized that the caddies, really, you know.
Speaker 1: They're that's where where.
Speaker 2: Money was, right. So I started caddying and really enjoyed
Speaker 2: that and learned a lot from these you know, outstanding
Speaker 2: professional caddies and got to really, you know, study the
Speaker 2: golf courses and see how our guests reacted to the
Speaker 2: golf courses, what they liked, you know what, what they
Speaker 2: were frustrated with. So that was that was a really
Speaker 2: incredible experience. But honestly, my favorite job was I was
Speaker 2: a carpenter for several years, you know, a Union card
Speaker 2: carrying frame in Chicago, and I loved, you know, building things.
Speaker 2: I love the people I worked with. I love the
Speaker 2: culture of the company I worked at. So that's what
Speaker 2: I did in in high school and college, golf and framing.
Speaker 2: When I graduated from Santa Clara, I honestly had no
Speaker 2: idea what I wanted to do. I was a major
Speaker 2: in econ and Latin. I was a golfer. I had
Speaker 2: spent three or four weeks each winter throughout college. We
Speaker 2: were on the quarter system, so we had a big
Speaker 2: winter break going down to Barn Google and spending time
Speaker 2: with the settlers as they were developing their business. My
Speaker 2: dad and I would go down. My sister came on
Speaker 2: one of our trips, and then getting ah an extraordinary
Speaker 2: education in the Sand Belt, playing playing these great golf courses,
Speaker 2: and Michael Clayton, who you've had on your show, was
Speaker 2: our our host through most of those. And there's nothing
Speaker 2: better better than either walking or playing Oral Melbourne and
Speaker 2: listening to Clay's talk about the architecture, and we were
Speaker 2: joined by Jeff Ogilvie, you know several times, so to
Speaker 2: hear them banter about you know that really really then
Speaker 2: the minutia of the course and the big themes, right,
Speaker 2: but all of it was, you know, I think that's
Speaker 2: maybe when I got you know, the the I'd been
Speaker 2: hooked on golf for a while, but that's when I
Speaker 2: got the bug and the interest in golf course architecture.
Speaker 2: I had been privileged before them to play some great
Speaker 2: golf courses, but I didn't necessarily know why they were great,
Speaker 2: and that got me curious, so that, you know, when
Speaker 2: I went home, I started, you know, looking at golf
Speaker 2: courses more closely and asking different questions and trying to
Speaker 2: learn as much as I could. So I went down
Speaker 2: there for three or four years. For a month, I
Speaker 2: got to know the settlers, and having no idea what
Speaker 2: I wanted to do, I called Richard Sattler and asked
Speaker 2: him for a job. He figured, I guess because I'd
Speaker 2: worked on golf courses and because of the relationship he
Speaker 2: had with my dad, that I had more experience than
Speaker 2: you know the other operations, you know, non manager employees,
Speaker 2: not much more experience. But so I went down there
Speaker 2: and had an incredible year, worked round the clock all
Speaker 2: day every day. It started with me and Greg Ramsey
Speaker 2: in a single WAT trailer in the parking lot running
Speaker 2: the operations. The settlers were running the operations, but we
Speaker 2: were sort of down in the dirt, you know, taking
Speaker 2: care of our guests and you know, gorilla and burgers
Speaker 2: and brats and running the shop and selling right. So
Speaker 2: if there were slow times, or if you didn't need
Speaker 2: both of us, somebody would be in the back selling right,
Speaker 2: calling clubs in real Melbourne, just trying to get people
Speaker 2: to bar and Google. And by the time hustle, we
Speaker 2: were hustling, learned how to hustle, you know, well I
Speaker 2: think had a sense of out a hustle. But yeah,
Speaker 2: we were hustling. It was fun. But what I what
Speaker 2: I realized was I didn't love operations. I wasn't great
Speaker 2: at operations. What I was drawn to was the development
Speaker 2: work that Richard and Sally and then their kids were doing.
Speaker 2: And I would spend as much time as I could
Speaker 2: learning from Richard everything he knew. He and his wife
Speaker 2: Sally are brilliant entrepreneurs. He had developed several hotels in Hobart.
Speaker 2: He grew up on a farm. He left his farm
Speaker 2: to drive a truck, ended up buying the truck, then
Speaker 2: the fleet from his boss cashed out, went into the
Speaker 2: hotel business. He knew his guests, he knew what was
Speaker 2: important what was not important. So then when he risked,
Speaker 2: literally risked his farm. Actually I cut out a piece.
Speaker 2: So he wanted his kids to grow up on a farm.
Speaker 2: He sold most of his hotel business, bought sixteen thousand
Speaker 2: acres of mostly undeveloped land that he developed into a farm.
Speaker 2: Almost lost it all when the world price of sheep crashed,
Speaker 2: had built it back up when Greg Ramsey came along
Speaker 2: and tried to convince him to build a golf course,
Speaker 2: which he ultimately did. I forget where I was going
Speaker 2: with that. But he really knew development, he knew his customers.
Speaker 2: He had never played golf in his life. He didn't
Speaker 2: really know anything about He didn't know anything about golf
Speaker 2: course architecture and very little about golf. But my dad
Speaker 2: assured him that he would help with you know, work
Speaker 2: with the architect and that everything. Richard, we had stayed
Speaker 2: at his hotels. Everything that he was doing in Hobart
Speaker 2: would be directly applicable to Barnbougle, and they were the
Speaker 2: same guests. There are business travelers from Melbourne and Sydney,
Speaker 2: and Richard totally gets it. So it was a perfect
Speaker 2: translation and he hit the ground running.
Speaker 1: I imagine as a developer now, like you look at
Speaker 1: I listened other sports podcasts, I read other stuff online,
Speaker 1: and I see stuff in other publications. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, I could tweak that and it would be
Speaker 1: a pretty cool way to do something. And do you
Speaker 1: feel the same way when you go anywhere, whether it's
Speaker 1: even like a coffee shop or a restaurant or a hotel,
Speaker 1: you can kind of kind of pick and choose the
Speaker 1: little things that you like from places adapt them to yours.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what makes it so fun. Look going back
Speaker 2: to as far back as I could remember, let's say
Speaker 2: six years old, you know, a huge part of the
Speaker 2: relationship I've had with my dad has been just observing
Speaker 2: the businesses around us, right and asking a million questions.
Speaker 2: So you get into a taxi and my dad would
Speaker 2: just start asking questions to the taxi driver and afterwards
Speaker 2: we talk about what do we like about that particular
Speaker 2: taxi and McDonald's. What are they doing well at this
Speaker 2: location and poorly at that location. So our relationship has
Speaker 2: from the start been based off of exactly what you
Speaker 2: just asked about, right, So so it's a little and
Speaker 2: he would test us, you know, we walk out of
Speaker 2: a restaurant, you know, what would you change? Well? What
Speaker 2: did they do really well? So that's that's just sort
Speaker 2: of intuitive, and you know, it's it might be a
Speaker 2: curse to the people around me, because it's like you
Speaker 2: can't shut that off. Right, Everything you see is something
Speaker 2: to learn from, either good or bad. But but what
Speaker 2: makes working in the golf industry so fun is you're
Speaker 2: just always you know, learning, and it's a it's a
Speaker 2: good excuse to go see what the best do right.
Speaker 2: And every time if I'm lucky enough to go on
Speaker 2: a vacation, either you know, with my wife or on
Speaker 2: a buddy's trip, you know, I'm leaving you know, the
Speaker 2: trip with one hundred notes and here's what they did really,
Speaker 2: really well. Here's something that you know, as a customer,
Speaker 2: I didn't like, and I wonder if we're doing something similar,
Speaker 2: you know, let's look into that and try to improve it.
Speaker 2: So it's it's yeah, it makes life really fun because
Speaker 2: every day, you know, we're learning, you know, different different
Speaker 2: things and taken awayfully best practices.
Speaker 1: So you so you're with Richard and working hustling at
Speaker 1: bar and boogle for a year. Yeah, yeah, what did
Speaker 1: you do after that?
Speaker 2: So you know, I guess my takeaway was I wanted
Speaker 2: to be a Richard Sailor, wanted to develop, and I
Speaker 2: realized I really wanted to develop golf courses. I talked
Speaker 2: to my dad about it. He was a golf course
Speaker 2: developer you know by then, and his advice was, go
Speaker 2: out and learn the technical skills to develop right, and
Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be a golf there'll be applicable
Speaker 2: to golf. If you come work for me, you know,
Speaker 2: you'll never really have the confidence to know if you
Speaker 2: deserve to be on the team or not. You'll always
Speaker 2: be my Kaiser's son. So go out and figure out
Speaker 2: what you like developing and gain some confidence and success,
Speaker 2: and then over time, if there's a good opportunity for
Speaker 2: us to work together, then we'll do it. But but
Speaker 2: if not, you'll be you know, happy. He knew I
Speaker 2: loved building. I love creating and imagining.
Speaker 1: Well in that carpenter you know, building stuff. Yeah, like
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's neat.
Speaker 2: It was really neat and good growing up building forts
Speaker 2: at the Dunes Club before as a golf course. Just
Speaker 2: always building forts, always building trails with my dad, always
Speaker 2: planting trees with my dad. So I went back to
Speaker 2: Chicago interviewed. You know, it's a great time to be
Speaker 2: working for a developer. I returned in two thousand and
Speaker 2: four and got to know some great companies, got a
Speaker 2: lot of great advice from people, and I could talk
Speaker 2: for hours about you know, some of that advice, but
Speaker 2: really got lucky. I was lucky in the sense that
Speaker 2: I was introduced to Dan Lucas and Mike Dreu, who
Speaker 2: are the partners and founders of Structured Development. And I
Speaker 2: give myself credit in taking that job. It was the
Speaker 2: salary was the lowest offer I received, but it was
Speaker 2: so clear that these are guys I wanted to learn from.
Speaker 2: They were so smart, and they worked so hard, and
Speaker 2: they're doing really cool projects right some other jobs that
Speaker 2: I just I saw a ceiling, not just salary, but
Speaker 2: in terms of what I could learn and it was
Speaker 2: clear that their culture, you know, there was no ceiling.
Speaker 2: You know, there's there's nothing below you and there's nothing
Speaker 2: above you. So you know, I would say outside of
Speaker 2: my dad, Richard Saler was my first mentor that I
Speaker 2: you know, I think about lessons from him, you know,
Speaker 2: all the time. And and Dan Lucas and Mike Drew
Speaker 2: was really lucky. It took a while to get their attention,
Speaker 2: even though it was a small company. I had no
Speaker 2: idea what I was doing when they hired me, and
Speaker 2: wasn't worth the small salary they were paying me, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, But eventually got their attention and just had
Speaker 2: a blast, you know, working working for them.
Speaker 1: I think it's always like when you switch careers, you
Speaker 1: I think it's so funny how you just become like expert,
Speaker 1: an expert in these weird things like you'd never envision
Speaker 1: when you're growing up or you're in college, or like,
Speaker 1: you know, I took a job in trucking like all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I know, like freight prices from Chicago
Speaker 1: to Atlanta, and it's like, what we Why do I have
Speaker 1: this information that's going to forever be stored in my mind? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And it's like you just you go into these things.
Speaker 1: You take a job and you know nothing, and your
Speaker 1: job essentially is like you learn it on the fly.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, a lot in a lot of places, especially
Speaker 1: with what you're describing. It's almost more like a startup
Speaker 1: culture at that development shop, because there was it was
Speaker 1: very flat and you could see where you could go up.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and every project was a startup. So we
Speaker 2: would do these big mixed use projects in Chicago and
Speaker 2: everyone was a new startup. You have to, you know,
Speaker 2: you have to be just like in the golf business,
Speaker 2: you can't just be successful and hang up your hat, right,
Speaker 2: you have to earn it all over again with each
Speaker 2: resort and within it resort. You have to do it
Speaker 2: day in and day out, and you're in and year out.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I've always admired people who, uh, I don't
Speaker 2: know if they get bored or just wanted a new challenge,
Speaker 2: but totally change careers and just start from scratch. And
Speaker 2: some people just do it every every fifteen or twenty years,
Speaker 2: even when they're you know, they've achieved great success. And
Speaker 2: my dad's one of those people. Right. He was a
Speaker 2: greeting card publisher and then and then the next day
Speaker 2: he was a golf course developer. You know, that's crazy,
Speaker 2: and people, you know, might think that he didn't know
Speaker 2: anything about I mean, he wasn't a developer, but he
Speaker 2: was a curious person and he'd observed retail golfers and restaurants,
Speaker 2: and you know it gets a lot of credit for golf,
Speaker 2: but maybe not enough for the hospitality side, on the
Speaker 2: service side, which is you know, he really.
Speaker 1: That's a big good job, a big part of resource
Speaker 1: almost probably a bigger part of than the golf courses.
Speaker 2: It's all important. We got to nail it at all,
Speaker 2: you know, it's all got to be it's all going
Speaker 2: to be good.
Speaker 1: So you're doing these mixed use properties. What would you say,
Speaker 1: did are there any light bulb moments where you're like,
Speaker 1: oh wow, this this if we do this in golf
Speaker 1: it would be or what was the biggest basis that
Speaker 1: you learned from that experience?
Speaker 2: I just learned the confidence that you just figured out.
Speaker 2: You have no idea what you're doing, but you're you're
Speaker 2: charged with accomplishing something. You just figured it out, and
Speaker 2: a lot of people don't have that confidence, and you
Speaker 2: just have to be relentless and grind and and figured out.
Speaker 2: I aftually had a lot of support at that that company,
Speaker 2: and I wasn't figuring out you know, the big brilliant
Speaker 2: ideas that the partners were, but you know, starting with
Speaker 2: the smallest projects and tasks I was given, going all
Speaker 2: the way up to the top. It was just the
Speaker 2: confidence of you know, I was in my early twenties,
Speaker 2: mid twenties, late twenties managing a dynamic team right of engineers, lawyers,
Speaker 2: you know, brokers, finance, you know people in finance. You
Speaker 2: know you have clients, most of mine, we're medical office
Speaker 2: spaces that you're working for. You know, it's a dynamic
Speaker 2: team and managing them toward an outcome in our case
Speaker 2: building or my case within the company, you know, delivering
Speaker 2: these medical office suites and then retail, and we did
Speaker 2: some I did some industrial and some school. So that
Speaker 2: was what I learned, was the confidence that you could
Speaker 2: just figure it all out. You know, with your analogy
Speaker 2: with trucking, you know, I think you have the confidence
Speaker 2: that you might not know anything about trucking, but you
Speaker 2: could just figure it out, just ask a million questions
Speaker 2: and bug people with questions. You just keep asking the
Speaker 2: right questions and you'll get there. So the AHA moment
Speaker 2: was when I finally had the confidence to say, Okay,
Speaker 2: I think I could do this on a smaller scale
Speaker 2: on my own. And then and then I left to
Speaker 2: do that, to do really small developments, but their mind
Speaker 2: and right, and it was it was the confidence to
Speaker 2: do that and then being successful doing that that gave confidence.
Speaker 2: So then when I ultimately went to work with my dad,
Speaker 2: starting out with band in Muni, I had some confidence
Speaker 2: that I didn't know everything about golf course development, but
Speaker 2: I think I could figure out. And I was surrounded
Speaker 2: by so many brilliant people. If I could ask the
Speaker 2: right questions, I think I could lead them toward, you know,
Speaker 2: a vision that might be successful.
Speaker 1: Talk about Bandon Muni. That project.
Speaker 2: It's heartbreaking because it never got off the ground for
Speaker 2: political reasons. But let's just you know, focusing on the
Speaker 2: concept and then the architecture. My dad wanted to build.
Speaker 2: It was really he wanted to give back to the
Speaker 2: local community. So the idea was, you know, if Andy
Speaker 2: Johnson came from Chicago, you'd pay you know, full retail,
Speaker 2: but locals would pay twenty dollars. And if you took
Speaker 2: a junior Cady'd pay ten, so would be a local
Speaker 2: municipal golf course. There's twenty seven holes. You know, locals
Speaker 2: with tee off on one and resort guests with tee
Speaker 2: off at ten. Twenty seven holes, you could double the
Speaker 2: number of rounds on. The land was phenomenal. It was
Speaker 2: really dooony. You know, there are dunes at Bandon, but
Speaker 2: then there's you know, there's different there's different landforms throughout Bandon.
Speaker 2: You know the trails you go into the woods and
Speaker 2: out on you know sixteenth of Bandon, it's this really
Speaker 2: hard packed sand. Uh. This was pure sand dunes, right,
Speaker 2: pure link sand dunes.
Speaker 1: So more more along the lines of like a Scotland sands.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yes, yes, Scottish or maybe even more Irish.
Speaker 2: Big yeah, I mean it was that you know, most
Speaker 2: dunes have this like push up you know this front.
Speaker 2: Bandon has front. You know, once you go over that ridge,
Speaker 2: then it's flat forest. And when you look around the
Speaker 2: world at dunes, it's you know, the sands getting pushed
Speaker 2: onto the beach then blown from the beach onto you
Speaker 2: know generally within let's say a mile of the beach,
Speaker 2: you know, a high high ridge. So this This had
Speaker 2: this high dune ridge after which it dropped off. It
Speaker 2: was pretty flat, but it was about a mile from
Speaker 2: the ocean. So beautiful, pure sand site, gorgeous dunes. You know.
Speaker 2: Gil Hans was hired to be the architect.
Speaker 1: And what year was it, Well, I don't.
Speaker 2: Remember, twenty ten eleven, I mean then ten eleven. I
Speaker 2: went from that to San Valley, so Sand Valley so
Speaker 2: started twenty thirteen, so let's say ten eleven twelve, and
Speaker 2: I was doing I was also working on real estate
Speaker 2: that we have an organ outside of the resort, you know,
Speaker 2: whether it's residential or we've logging properties or differ different property.
Speaker 2: But Gill's routing was just fabulous. It was it was
Speaker 2: twenty seven holes that all worked together. Every hole was different.
Speaker 2: It was outstanding. It was one of the best routings
Speaker 2: on some of the best piece of ground I've ever seen.
Speaker 2: And unfortunately it was never built. There was an issue
Speaker 2: with the Bureau of Land Management that kept us from
Speaker 2: being able to trade for the land. So it wasn't built.
Speaker 2: And that happens a lot for in the industry and
Speaker 2: for us. You know, if the public sees one resort,
Speaker 2: of course that gets developed. There are many that don't
Speaker 2: that fizzle out, and it's just part of the heartbreak
Speaker 2: of working in the business. You know, we're lucky to
Speaker 2: see all these great sites, but not every great site
Speaker 2: gets built down cool links. You know, there's the unfortunate
Speaker 2: news last week that that wasn't approved, and that's just
Speaker 2: that's part of it's part of the business, and it's
Speaker 2: it's heartbreaking, but you move on and you know that
Speaker 2: there will be other great sites and other great properties
Speaker 2: and on behold, we got a call from Craig Altam
Speaker 2: and then we moved on to Sand Valley.
Speaker 1: Hey, it's got to be hard when you invest so
Speaker 1: much time into something and it has such a good,
Speaker 1: you know mission behind it where you're giving back to
Speaker 1: the community. It's going to be affordable golf for locals.
Speaker 1: And then you know, it was the local government essentially
Speaker 1: was the one that kind of put it a hall
Speaker 1: to it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess I blame the federal government
Speaker 2: for it, but you know, the local governments for the
Speaker 2: most part, very very supportive in abandon of our developments.
Speaker 2: And there are local groups and there's we're talking about
Speaker 2: two three people who aren't supportive, right and could create
Speaker 2: a lot of you know, resistance, But the local government
Speaker 2: has been amazingly supportive of of Bandon. That's in large
Speaker 2: part because of the relationship that that Howard McKee built
Speaker 2: with the locals. He spent eight years working on the development,
Speaker 2: you know, getting banded off the ground. He was there
Speaker 2: in person, people knew him. That was one of the
Speaker 2: big biggest lessons I took away from Bandon was what
Speaker 2: Howard McKee did. So when we started San Valley, I
Speaker 2: moved there right so that you know, it wasn't these
Speaker 2: developers from Chicago or they like Trump or you know,
Speaker 2: who are these guys if because these rumors spread in
Speaker 2: these small towns. So if anybody said, oh, they're going
Speaker 2: to do such and shuts, somebody else would say, no,
Speaker 2: they're not. Go ask Michael. He's over there in Aisle
Speaker 2: six buying Brad. Go talk to him, right, you're there
Speaker 2: and accessible. That's what Howard did. I think that's why
Speaker 2: Bannon was successful. I tried to emulate that at San
Speaker 2: Valley by embedding myself in the community. I was at
Speaker 2: the farmer's market every Friday. You know, knew knew everybody
Speaker 2: in the community, so that you know, you fill the
Speaker 2: void that rumors would otherwise fill.
Speaker 1: I imagine that also helps you create unique culture and
Speaker 1: almost develop. We were talking before we started recording about
Speaker 1: sense of place, is that it gives you, It weaves
Speaker 1: you deeper into the fabric of where you're building a resort.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't play off the sense of place if
Speaker 2: you don't know the place, you know, just like an
Speaker 2: architect can't play off of you know, can't riff off
Speaker 2: of micro movements or micro movements if they don't know
Speaker 2: those movements. You know, they have to put the time
Speaker 2: in the dirt, walking the ground and knowing it intimately
Speaker 2: so that they could be inspired by it and use
Speaker 2: what's there, but also riff off of what's there, you know.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I would hope. So, I mean, just this
Speaker 2: is all example of it. And I don't know why
Speaker 2: this popped in, but local Farmers Market got to know
Speaker 2: this great music co op right there are. I remember
Speaker 2: the day there's two two women harmonizing what was on
Speaker 2: the base the other ukulele. It was just awesome bluegrass, right.
Speaker 2: So we got to know them, learned about their co
Speaker 2: op and said we want you to be a part
Speaker 2: of sand Valley. From the start, we've lived music at
Speaker 2: Sand Valley five days a week and it's it's their
Speaker 2: co op and they have a rotating group of musicians
Speaker 2: passing through the Midwest. We have, you know, fiddlers from
Speaker 2: all over the world and bluegrass artists and so again
Speaker 2: we wouldn't have probably met them have we not been there, been.
Speaker 1: There, and then it becomes part of your place because
Speaker 1: your place is here. Yeah, in terms of when with
Speaker 1: band and Muni what it doesn't get off the ground,
Speaker 1: But what are some things that you took away from
Speaker 1: that project that you've you've used since then at Sand Valley.
Speaker 2: It's a good question. I guess for me, it was
Speaker 2: the first time I spent any you know, real time
Speaker 2: with the architects. So so walking with my dad and
Speaker 2: with Jim Wagner and Gil Hands and getting a better
Speaker 2: sense of what that relationship is and how that waltz works,
Speaker 2: I guess was the takeaway so that, you know, then
Speaker 2: when we started Sanballey, it had some experience working with
Speaker 2: an architect even though we weren't we weren't building, and
Speaker 2: it wasn't a tremendous amount of time, but it was
Speaker 2: enough to start to start to you know, understand that
Speaker 2: I'm struggling with the timing. But I guess also did
Speaker 2: that at Cabot, joined my dad on his trips to
Speaker 2: Cabot when you when he and Ben Collen were developing
Speaker 2: links and then cliffs. So that was probably the most
Speaker 2: important uh takeaway. And then I mean I had a blast.
Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time getting to know the land,
Speaker 2: so I guess I learned that I really enjoy that.
Speaker 2: I knew that was important not just for the architect,
Speaker 2: but I think for the developer to know the ground intimately.
Speaker 2: So that was maybe another takeaway that when we started
Speaker 2: Siam Valley, I spent at least six months just walking
Speaker 2: the ground so I knew it so we could make
Speaker 2: decisions on you know, where should the architect start, what
Speaker 2: ground did I like the most, or what pieces of
Speaker 2: ground might compliment you know one another as two courses
Speaker 2: and then three, so just just seeing just seeing how
Speaker 2: it takes time. There's no other way to get to
Speaker 2: know a piece of ground but time. Just walk it,
Speaker 2: you know, know all the deer trails, you know, just
Speaker 2: just know everything about it.
Speaker 1: What uh what as most of the listeners probably won't
Speaker 1: what give us an inside look kind of when you're
Speaker 1: walking one of the courses or proposed courses or a
Speaker 1: routing with an architect, or you're mid constructor what are
Speaker 1: those conversations like?
Speaker 2: Just what are conversations with the architect?
Speaker 1: Yeah, talk about just like the whole working with in
Speaker 1: these walks where you walk and you're talking with them,
Speaker 1: what what are you guys talking about a.
Speaker 2: Lot of different things depending on on the time. I
Speaker 2: guess my mind. When we started walking with Bill, there
Speaker 2: couldn't see ten feet in front of you because there
Speaker 2: are these pines, right, there's an agricultural so most of
Speaker 2: our conversation was where the hell are we? Where we going? Right?
Speaker 2: But joking aside, starting let me, let's just use dope
Speaker 2: because that's where we are today, right, So that's freshest
Speaker 2: in my mind. The conversation starts with, you know, the theme,
Speaker 2: what are we going to build? What's the what's the concept,
Speaker 2: what's the big idea? And maybe that's where our contribution
Speaker 2: is is most important. Sometimes we generate that idea, sometimes
Speaker 2: the architect does, and sometimes it comes out of a conversation.
Speaker 2: I think in the case of Daks course, it was
Speaker 2: his idea but it came out of a conversation Christopher
Speaker 2: and I are, you know, have a confidence that we
Speaker 2: could push the bound continue to push the boundaries in
Speaker 2: terms of unconventional routings. We found our golfers love playing
Speaker 2: eighteen holes and then a par three, right. You know,
Speaker 2: we were talking recently about one of the most inspiring
Speaker 2: golf courses to you. For me, it's Banned Preserve because
Speaker 2: it totally blasted through the mold of what golfers will
Speaker 2: travel to play. And I'm saying, they go to band
Speaker 2: and play the Preserve, but they go to Bandon and
Speaker 2: they play it, and they pay one hundred dollars to
Speaker 2: play it. I mean, that's that's that's big Cabot Cliffs,
Speaker 2: six par threes, six par four, six par fives, that's
Speaker 2: you know, pretty mold breaking. And then Pacific Dudes. The
Speaker 2: back nine four part three's three par five is only
Speaker 2: two par fours, the sixteenth, it's one of the best
Speaker 2: holes on the resort. That's a short part four, and
Speaker 2: then the thirteenth, which is one of the most epicals
Speaker 2: on the property. That's an unusual squarecard for the best.
Speaker 1: An unusual balance.
Speaker 2: It's an unusual balance, but they're the best holes and
Speaker 2: it's the best balance for that piece of ground, you know.
Speaker 2: And what my dad let Tom do there was just
Speaker 2: go find the greatest holes. I don't know if most
Speaker 2: developers would have done that, and I don't know if
Speaker 2: most architects would have would have been comfortable doing that,
Speaker 2: you know, would they be ridly cool? But Thomas just
Speaker 2: he's just committed to the best golf holls. So, you know,
Speaker 2: Christopher and I want to, you know, continue to explore
Speaker 2: the boundaries of what our guests will like this, I guess,
Speaker 2: going backwards in time, the Sandbox started as what I
Speaker 2: wanted to be a putting course. What I saw at
Speaker 2: the preserve was a lot of people talked about the
Speaker 2: last hole, which the caddies encouraged them to play with
Speaker 2: a putter. And I just see how much fun people
Speaker 2: have playing a full length Part three with only a putter.
Speaker 2: It's a downhill hole and you could just bun it down,
Speaker 2: you know, if you had a decent shot at somewhere
Speaker 2: on the green, and people love that. So I asked
Speaker 2: Jimmy Craig to consider routing. I called it a Part
Speaker 2: two course at the time, but in reality, you know,
Speaker 2: how many of us can get down in two from
Speaker 2: eighty yards. But of course that you would only play
Speaker 2: with your putter. So he started doing that. But then
Speaker 2: he said, you know, he'd say, Mike, come over here,
Speaker 2: look look at this tea. You know, don't you want
Speaker 2: to hit this shot too? And I'd say, yeah, I do.
Speaker 2: I really want to hit that shot, you know, but
Speaker 2: that's more of a wedge and there's a bit of
Speaker 2: a force carry. So he started with that concept, but
Speaker 2: he took the conversation uh much further right and broaden
Speaker 2: it and made it more interesting. Frankly, it made it
Speaker 2: a lot more interesting, but we still have, you know,
Speaker 2: the t's that you could play with a putter. It
Speaker 2: started there and the conversation evolved into what it is today,
Speaker 2: which is a mashy course right holes between sixty and
Speaker 2: one hundred and forty yards, which is different than you know,
Speaker 2: you're not hitting you know, five irons into those greens. So,
Speaker 2: with seeing how much fun people have at the preserve
Speaker 2: and are having at the sandbox, Chris and I started thinking,
Speaker 2: what if the next course we build at Sam Valley
Speaker 2: wasn't an eighteen hole full lengths course. What if it
Speaker 2: was a precision course. Tom Doak had done, of course,
Speaker 2: next to the preserve, a routing which I hope we
Speaker 2: build one day of drivable par fours and par three's.
Speaker 2: I thought, you know, could we do that for the
Speaker 2: next course here? Could that be? Like? Would people take
Speaker 2: that seriously and play it? Would you wake up in
Speaker 2: the morning and go out and play a precision course,
Speaker 2: you know, just part three short part fours. So I
Speaker 2: called Tom and said, you know, this isn't a job offer,
Speaker 2: but I'm curious if that were your one crack at
Speaker 2: Sam Valley, if your commission was to build that type
Speaker 2: of course, would you do it? And he said, absolutely,
Speaker 2: that's fun, that's different. I love it. And another reason
Speaker 2: why we got there was this piece of ground that
Speaker 2: Sedge Valley sits on. Has been near and dear to
Speaker 2: my heart since since the start, and we haven't developed
Speaker 2: it yet, but it's just my opinion, perfect golf ground.
Speaker 2: But because the first two courses it's a little tight
Speaker 2: in places, and a couple other brilliant architects have done
Speaker 2: more traditional routings on it and it just didn't quite
Speaker 2: work right. It didn't fit. There are a lot of
Speaker 2: great holes, but some holes it got a little awkward.
Speaker 1: How do you evaluate when you when you get a
Speaker 1: couple of routings on one ground? Is it just do
Speaker 1: you just keep walking it?
Speaker 2: We walk them, you know, when my dad does it.
Speaker 2: And something that we've taken on is rating holes one
Speaker 2: to ten Doak scale right. That's not a great way
Speaker 2: to well, it is a great way, but it's one
Speaker 2: of several inputs. Definitely bring a group right. And that's
Speaker 2: something I've learned from my dad. It's not just our perspective.
Speaker 2: We're asking the retail golfer, what do you think about
Speaker 2: this hole? What do you think about this routing? What
Speaker 2: does it say to you? What do you love about it?
Speaker 2: What don't you love about it? So, you know, and
Speaker 2: then trusting our own gut and you know reading you
Speaker 2: know the architects, asking the architects what they think about
Speaker 2: their own routing, what they don't like. But so the
Speaker 2: other routings were they had so many high points because
Speaker 2: the ground was so good and they're great architects, but
Speaker 2: it was it was too much golf and too small
Speaker 2: a space. So I thought this precision course could work
Speaker 2: really well on it. So Tom said, absolutely, I'd love
Speaker 2: to look at it, but would you consider another model
Speaker 2: that I've wanted to do for a long time? Right,
Speaker 2: And then he talked about what you wrote about, which
Speaker 2: is the current model what we're building of course, like
Speaker 2: West Sussex or Rye or Swimy Forest that is, you know,
Speaker 2: more more traditional, but you know, not not committed to
Speaker 2: any length or par So he said, you mind if
Speaker 2: I just spend some time out there and see if
Speaker 2: that fits and propose that and it sounded really cool. Well,
Speaker 2: you know, I played those courses. I haven't played Ride,
Speaker 2: but I've played West Sussex and Swindley Forest some of
Speaker 2: the others he mentioned, and I never once thought of
Speaker 2: them as anything but great, fun, wonderful courses. If you
Speaker 2: ask anybody plays Windy Forest what the par or length is,
Speaker 2: they'll it doesn't stand out as being six thousand yards
Speaker 2: of part sixty eight. It's just a great golf course.
Speaker 2: That's the takeaway. And I hope that's the message with
Speaker 2: Tom's golf course. So I was surprised to hear that
Speaker 2: those those two courses in particular were not sixty eight
Speaker 2: hundred yards par seventy two, because I just walked off saying, man,
Speaker 2: that was fun. Right, that was really fun. But so
Speaker 2: he explained that and it sounded really cool, and I
Speaker 2: talked to Chris about it, and he went out and
Speaker 2: as he does you know often, you know, he could
Speaker 2: all these architects, including Tom, spend a lot of time
Speaker 2: on the ground, but you know, he's really good with
Speaker 2: topo's and sort of I don't want to say he
Speaker 2: mailed in a routing because he spent time walking out there.
Speaker 2: But it was awesome from start. You know, it's not
Speaker 2: going to require a ton of input from me here
Speaker 2: because or you know, our family. It's a really strong
Speaker 2: routing as is, so we're sold. So that was the conversation.
Speaker 2: It started as something that Chris and I thought would
Speaker 2: be cool. He took it. I don't say the next
Speaker 2: level because I would like to build that concept at
Speaker 2: some point. But he found something that was a better
Speaker 2: fit for this piece of ground. That is so cool.
Speaker 2: So that's a very long winded way of saying where
Speaker 2: the conversation starts. Then we walked there routing with them
Speaker 2: in person. Right, we talk about what we like, what
Speaker 2: we don't like. There's nothing but things to like so
Speaker 2: far in his golf courses. In the first five holes
Speaker 2: we've cleared are just spectacular. But we did we start
Speaker 2: talking about themes. You know, he sees a lot of
Speaker 2: exposed sand on the first two and he says, you know,
Speaker 2: what do you think about it's in this beautiful? Said Savannah?
Speaker 2: Could we just let that be? And you know, the
Speaker 2: conversation is, yeah, it's beautiful. What can we do to
Speaker 2: help that? Now? You know, we could burn it, seed
Speaker 2: into it, you know, really lift up that surrounding prairie.
Speaker 2: And Savannah we talk about greens that we like. I mean,
Speaker 2: there's an email where it was sort of like, here
Speaker 2: are the things that aren't really important to me, right
Speaker 2: because it's important to get on the same page at
Speaker 2: the same point, on the same page early on. And
Speaker 2: then he did the same, here's what's really important to me.
Speaker 2: And then we compromised on certain things. You know, I
Speaker 2: talked about just wanting really big greens, which I like
Speaker 2: and I've learned from my dad. And he pointed out,
Speaker 2: you know that certain holes, the fourth hole in particular,
Speaker 2: a big green doesn't make sense because of its length,
Speaker 2: but also because of this perfectly natural green that's sitting there.
Speaker 2: It's phenomenal, Like, why change it? Make it bigger.
Speaker 1: That's the one that plays right up right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's amazing how you know he found you know,
Speaker 2: I both like prairie dunes and they have these great
Speaker 2: greens that are benching, benched into hills, and I've always
Speaker 2: wondered if those natural or do they you know, manufacture them.
Speaker 2: And Tom's found these just perfect insights on four and five.
Speaker 2: They're just benched into the hill. So again, that was
Speaker 2: a quick conversation because he was totally convincing, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: why would we wh would we make that bigger? It's
Speaker 2: perfect as is. We were talking about bunkers. You know,
Speaker 2: I've been and other people in the industry but think
Speaker 2: a lot about bunkering. There's been a lot of flashy
Speaker 2: bunkers out there. I've always been drawn to like a
Speaker 2: lot of Scottish and Irish courses that have sort of
Speaker 2: economy of bunkering. They do so much with so little.
Speaker 2: There's fewer bunkers, and the bunkers are smaller, but they're
Speaker 2: impactful and.
Speaker 1: The contours around them gather them in. It may make
Speaker 1: them play way bigger than they are. But from a
Speaker 1: maintenance standpoint.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maintenance is huge. Yeah, and st Andrews is a
Speaker 2: great example of how they just you know, they collect.
Speaker 2: But then I also love I have a good sandgame
Speaker 2: and allowsy golfer. But I'm good at the sand, but
Speaker 2: I don't love that part of the game. I love
Speaker 2: bumping around on ground, short grass with interesting contours, you know.
Speaker 2: That's why I love. There's great bunkering in the sand
Speaker 2: belt in Melbourne. But there's also great short grass, you know,
Speaker 2: around the green. So I love that type of shot
Speaker 2: and not great at it. But I love being creative
Speaker 2: and trying because it shots.
Speaker 1: It's different, it's.
Speaker 2: Fun, and I've seen you do it. You're you're you
Speaker 2: are great.
Speaker 1: At them, but getting worse.
Speaker 2: Well, uh still far better than I am. So I
Speaker 2: think he's been thinking that, as many people have. So
Speaker 2: we started talking about, you know, bunkers, having fewer of them,
Speaker 2: you know. He and Brian Schneider talked about bunkers that
Speaker 2: sit down on the ground, sit below level as opposed
Speaker 2: to flashing up you know, and using some more of those.
Speaker 2: An example you know, I was I've learned I think
Speaker 2: from my dad to like some model, you know. So
Speaker 2: we know we're speaking speaking the same language. And one
Speaker 2: of the ones that they presented was you know, Walton Heath,
Speaker 2: which has I think more bunkers than we would have,
Speaker 2: but so many of those either sit down below the
Speaker 2: surface or they would just go and carve out a
Speaker 2: hole and then put the earth behind the bunker to
Speaker 2: flash up a little lip, you know, and it's sort
Speaker 2: of clear that it's man made. It's a little mound,
Speaker 2: but it's very elegant. And you see those, you know,
Speaker 2: when they started. You see those all over London and
Speaker 2: in places in some of the older courses in the
Speaker 2: US as well. So now we're talking themes, right we had.
Speaker 2: We know that it's going to have five par threes,
Speaker 2: a number of short to meet you know, drivable to
Speaker 2: short par four's. We know what the out of play
Speaker 2: area looks like. We've talked bunkering. Playability is a big conversation,
Speaker 2: you know, and Tom and Brian have always said, look,
Speaker 2: we like playability too. We don't want our guests. But
Speaker 2: that's something I keep repeating and they know it is,
Speaker 2: you know, but this part of my job is to
Speaker 2: defend the retail golfer, right, just make sure that you
Speaker 2: know everybody's you know, having a lot of fun out there.
Speaker 2: I'm not telling them anything they don't know. They're committed to, Oh,
Speaker 2: they're committed to playability as well. And then green sites.
Speaker 2: You know, the most recent conversation, Brian Tom and I
Speaker 2: were out a few weeks ago walking and I was
Speaker 2: really curious to hear what they were thinking for each
Speaker 2: of their green sites, and fingers crossed. You know, I'm
Speaker 2: hoping the answer is very little, because sometimes, you know,
Speaker 2: they'll use what's there and sometimes they'll riff off of
Speaker 2: that and build things up. But these first holes that
Speaker 2: were cleared, I mean, it's like to see them right now,
Speaker 2: and that was you know, they'll they'll polish them probably
Speaker 2: with the sampro and might do a little dose are work.
Speaker 2: But it was really great to hear that they're going
Speaker 2: to do very little to the greens. The first five
Speaker 2: are like five of the most natural and best green
Speaker 2: sites on the property. They're They're amazing, and I'm just
Speaker 2: praying that as we clear trees we find that that's
Speaker 2: the case. Across the routing. They're spectacular green sites and
Speaker 2: they're all so different. So again, in a short conversation,
Speaker 2: you know, what they're planning on doing is something that
Speaker 2: I'm really excited about a big I don't want to
Speaker 2: say contentious, but where we had a conflict of opinion
Speaker 2: in our conversations as a number of teen grounds. You know,
Speaker 2: we have six sets of tees and we want, you know,
Speaker 2: everybody to be able to, you know, in some sense
Speaker 2: play the hole in the same way. And Tom feels
Speaker 2: that with fewer teas with great design, that people who
Speaker 2: with different swing speeds and abilities can have fun playing
Speaker 2: all from the same tee. And I agree with him
Speaker 2: one hundred percent. Right, if you have a four hundred
Speaker 2: and eighty yard hole and you have an eighty mile
Speaker 2: an hour seventy five mile hour swing speed, if the
Speaker 2: architecture is interesting, you have a lot of fun playing it.
Speaker 2: But I also know so I agree with that. I
Speaker 2: also know that our average guest if they have to
Speaker 2: take if they're forced to play three shots to a
Speaker 2: part four, they don't. They don't love that. Right.
Speaker 1: Do you ever think about just taking part off? Then?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we talked about that. We talked about that that day.
Speaker 2: I mean, it was a really fun conversation. And I
Speaker 2: love debating things with Tom and Brian because they're just
Speaker 2: so logical. It's not emotional, it's not personal, you know,
Speaker 2: it's just let's have a conversation and look at it
Speaker 2: from different perspectives, and at the end of the day
Speaker 2: we came to a solution. I think everybody's happy with
Speaker 2: that solution. But so that's the type of conversation you
Speaker 2: know you have or we're gonna have six t's, a're
Speaker 2: gonna have one tea. And so the next conversations will
Speaker 2: be is a piece of ground ready for irrigation? Those
Speaker 2: are generally, you know, not long conversations. And then the
Speaker 2: ultimate conversation that we're involved in, right, I mean Tom
Speaker 2: will have many, many, many conversations with his team, and
Speaker 2: we don't pretend to be architects, right, that's not our job.
Speaker 2: But we will have conversations on if a green is
Speaker 2: ready for seating and in the and a fairways are
Speaker 2: ready for seating. So fairways are they wide enough? Right?
Speaker 2: We go for really wide fairways. I think it's such value.
Speaker 2: You'll have narrower fairways than the first two courses, but
Speaker 2: you'll still have maintained rough.
Speaker 1: Yes, you'll have wide corridors with less shortcrafts.
Speaker 2: And I only care about corridors. Frankly, most of us
Speaker 2: who are lousy, sort of like that Whisby rough. It's
Speaker 2: fluffed up a little bit, you know, whereas you don't
Speaker 2: because you might get a flyer.
Speaker 1: Or really unpredictable shitty angle.
Speaker 2: It's unpredictable, you know. I love I love very good
Speaker 2: golfers talk about like the angst of a flyer live
Speaker 2: because I just love bass that fly, right, I love it.
Speaker 2: You know, greens, I'm not referring to town, but conversations
Speaker 2: we might have with an architecture or the greens big
Speaker 2: enough where they too severe, right, and and we tend
Speaker 2: to tone our greens down relative to certain trends in
Speaker 2: the industry with you know, are more. I use the
Speaker 2: term wild, and I think an architect would you you know,
Speaker 2: use a different term, would be interesting or but I
Speaker 2: think rather the same page. They also know they know
Speaker 2: what we like. I mean they they they I think,
Speaker 2: try to please their own creativity and sensibilities. But they
Speaker 2: also you know, want a client to be happy, right,
Speaker 2: so there. You know, if a client says I want
Speaker 2: you to build a championship golf course, I'm not going
Speaker 2: to say no. He's going to say, okay, how can
Speaker 2: I build a championship golf course that tests the greatest
Speaker 2: players in the world, but it's also fun for you know,
Speaker 2: the daily golfer, and you've talked to Tom about the
Speaker 2: course he's building in Texas doing that. Likewise, if if
Speaker 2: a client, if a client, if we say we want
Speaker 2: a course to be really playable for people of all handicaps,
Speaker 2: he's not gonna They're not gonna fight that. They're gonna say, Okay,
Speaker 2: that's that's the vision. We're gonna do that, but we're
Speaker 2: gonna figure out how to make a challenging for andy
Speaker 2: as well. Right. So, I think as long as everybody
Speaker 2: knows their role, I think what could be a problem
Speaker 2: is if an owner sort of thinks that they're an architect.
Speaker 2: And one thing you learn really quickly when working with
Speaker 2: these geniuses is that it might be an armchair architect,
Speaker 2: but you know, these guys are smarter, more knowledgeable, they
Speaker 2: think harder about it, They've been thinking harder about it
Speaker 2: for longer, and they've been perfecting their craft for decades,
Speaker 2: and they surround themselves with team members who are all
Speaker 2: qualified architects in their own right. So I think it's
Speaker 2: important for an owner to know his place and know
Speaker 2: what he contributes, you know, to defend the retail golfer
Speaker 2: and to set sort of you know, either in partnership
Speaker 2: or on their own, the sort of vision for what
Speaker 2: the course is going to be like. But then to
Speaker 2: let architects be architects. I've never once heard my dad,
Speaker 2: you know, talk about you know, bunker placement ever or
Speaker 2: dissect the strategy of a golf hall. Right. He trusts
Speaker 2: you know, a band and you know David and Gym
Speaker 2: and Bill and Ben Tom to do that, right.
Speaker 1: It's a I feel like when you go to golf courses,
Speaker 1: particularly you know, more so new ones, is you can
Speaker 1: always see, you can you no matter what you get
Speaker 1: the feel of the owner through the golf course. You know,
Speaker 1: it's likely if the owner is a better player, the
Speaker 1: golf course is going to be more challenging, it's going
Speaker 1: to be a little bit more demanding. And you feel
Speaker 1: that like you can see and and you know, and
Speaker 1: then there's if you there. Golf courses are more forgiving,
Speaker 1: they're they're a different things to mind. Something you said
Speaker 1: earlier about you.
Speaker 2: Call the Kaiser's lousy golfers, because we are we are
Speaker 2: losy golfers. All three of us are lousy golfers.
Speaker 1: Yeah, something you said earlier about about Chris did you're
Speaker 1: you want to continue to push the boundaries? Talk about
Speaker 1: where that motive comes from.
Speaker 2: Part of it is just creative, like whyt I do something
Speaker 2: different and not do something that's already been done, Right.
Speaker 2: I think that's a big part of it. But the
Speaker 2: biggest reason for doing that is ensuring that our guests
Speaker 2: have fun. Right, you want them to have fun. And
Speaker 2: I think, look, when I say push the boundaries, we're
Speaker 2: not necessarily doing anything that's innovative. Everything that we're doing
Speaker 2: in any way we may push a boundary has been
Speaker 2: done before in the UK. Right, So these arrows in
Speaker 2: the quiver that we pull from have been done before
Speaker 2: and we've played them and they're wildly fun. So when
Speaker 2: we push the brown boundaries, it's really going back into
Speaker 2: the game's history and pulling forward some of the ideas
Speaker 2: that may have been lost or at least lost on
Speaker 2: the American golfers. So what I mean specifically by that
Speaker 2: more part three courses. I mean I think the ratio
Speaker 2: for us at a resort is three to two. I
Speaker 2: think for every three golf courses we have, we should
Speaker 2: have two part three golf courses. You know, sandbox is
Speaker 2: way over subscribed for two golf courses. You can't get
Speaker 2: on the sandbox where you need to build another one,
Speaker 2: especially with Tom Doaks course, uh coming. I think a
Speaker 2: precision precision course right, and by that I mean short
Speaker 2: part fours and part three's. I think most golfers prefer
Speaker 2: playing part threes and find and find the best. Part
Speaker 2: three is to be the most fun holes and and
Speaker 2: that might just be because they only have one opportunity
Speaker 2: to screw it up right, so they get to hit
Speaker 2: greens and then everybody. But but they're also you know, beautiful,
Speaker 2: they're easier to frame.
Speaker 1: I think it's something too there is that the part
Speaker 1: three you're it's more of a community game there because
Speaker 1: there's less time to get away from your playing partners.
Speaker 1: It's your spend and that's just thing with the sandboxes.
Speaker 1: You're always you're always within speaking distance of the people
Speaker 1: you're playing with, and that it's a completely different experience
Speaker 1: than golf is where when you hit your drives, everybody diverges.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my group's absolutely you know, I might go on
Speaker 2: a walk about you, but see me for ten minutes
Speaker 2: until I get to the green six shots later. But
Speaker 2: it's such a great point. I think that's why people
Speaker 2: love the Part three that's one of the main reasons.
Speaker 2: And I think you nail it why people love the
Speaker 2: Part three courses because the banter never stops. There's never
Speaker 2: a break in the conversation. So if you're out with
Speaker 2: your buddies or your family, you know, it's at sandbox
Speaker 2: we see you know, families mom, dad, you know their
Speaker 2: kids playing golf or you know a lot of groups
Speaker 2: playing eight sum's heckling the betting. You know, it never stops.
Speaker 2: It's just pure fun the whole time. And that's it's
Speaker 2: sort of the most fun part of golf, right being
Speaker 2: being with people. It's a social game and it's as
Speaker 2: wild as I am off the tee. Sometimes it's not
Speaker 2: so social. It's a very isolated game big two hundred
Speaker 2: yards for the fairway.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's I mean, that's why you go with
Speaker 1: your friends to go golf, is to be with them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a course which I hope we get to
Speaker 2: talk about sometime in the future, but that Chris and
Speaker 2: I have hired Jim or being a to build. But
Speaker 2: and it's what's different about that is we've we've you know,
Speaker 2: just said we love par threes. We really love short
Speaker 2: and medium length par fours, right, so it's okay, don't
Speaker 2: worry about the par don't worry about the distance, and
Speaker 2: don't feel like you need any meaty par fours in there, right,
Speaker 2: And maybe that will keep it from being the perfect
Speaker 2: golf course. But if I don't have to hit a
Speaker 2: four or three iron into a green all day, I'm
Speaker 2: okay with that, right, And you probably need to be
Speaker 2: challenged with every club in your bag. I don't. I'll
Speaker 2: carry a three or four iron, you know, I'm three wood,
Speaker 2: five iron, seven eight pitching up and I don't really
Speaker 2: want to want to hit that shot, you know, we're
Speaker 2: You and I were talking recently. You mentioned how much
Speaker 2: you love the sixth hole Dunes, which is a short
Speaker 2: Part four. If there was a golf course filled with
Speaker 2: holes like that, to me, that and part three's some
Speaker 2: fun Part fives, I'd be happy forever. Right, So I
Speaker 2: think that's maybe unconventional, you know, urging an architect not
Speaker 2: to have a hole longer than there will be holes
Speaker 2: longer than three fifty, but to wait it with holes
Speaker 2: like number six at Prairie Dunes, seventeen at stream Song Red,
Speaker 2: sixteen at Pacific Dunes, two at Pacific Dunes, And you know,
Speaker 2: I could play those holes all day long, play them
Speaker 2: differently every single time I play them, you know, driver
Speaker 2: and then a five iron off the tee. And so
Speaker 2: I think that's different courses that are designed for women.
Speaker 2: I mean, we're great with teaen lengths for people of
Speaker 2: all swing speeds, but people with lower swim speeds, which
Speaker 2: sometimes correlates with you know, women have a different apex
Speaker 2: and roll and just spur, and you know throughout Great
Speaker 2: Britain you have golf courses built for people with lower
Speaker 2: swings beets. I got hooked on the game. I got
Speaker 2: the bug playing thirty six at Dornick with my dad
Speaker 2: and then going off and until it was dark, which
Speaker 2: might be eleven o'clock at night, playing the street course
Speaker 2: over and over and over and over, play over one
Speaker 2: hundred holes a day because that I could get there
Speaker 2: in two right, it was tighter, and we don't have
Speaker 2: those in this country. So no wonder it's such a
Speaker 2: male dominated sport. I think eventually we need to think
Speaker 2: about building not just teas, which is something I think
Speaker 2: innovative that my dad's done. But golf courses for women
Speaker 2: and younger players.
Speaker 1: And with golf everything's driven towards how can we test
Speaker 1: the male professional? But testing the male professional is almost
Speaker 1: like the opposite direction of testing the women professional. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because they they're much more precise, you know, their dispersions
Speaker 1: are like you're building fifty yards wide, like you know
Speaker 1: that a great you know, accurate woman player, Like they
Speaker 1: can keep it within, you know, and it's just completely
Speaker 1: and the hazard placement would be so different and it.
Speaker 2: Could be tighter, right, and it's not just distance, it's
Speaker 2: dispersion is huge, and then how much the ball rolls
Speaker 2: after it lands.
Speaker 1: Because then you could get so you know, the contours
Speaker 1: around the greens matter so much more. And that's where
Speaker 1: the interest, the design interest can be. It can be
Speaker 1: so much different, you know. Really, what you're talking about
Speaker 1: is variety, and it's something that's interesting. What you said
Speaker 1: is like, well, you know, it might not be the
Speaker 1: perfect course. I think about this a lot, is that
Speaker 1: I get the perfect golf course and you go play
Speaker 1: the ten best course in the world. But a lot
Speaker 1: of times the courses that stick with me the most
Speaker 1: stick with me for varieties of reasons. Yeah, and it
Speaker 1: could be the way. You know, one that I always
Speaker 1: think about is Diamond Springs, which is a Debrees course
Speaker 1: with Chris Schumacher and Hamilton Michigan. And what I like,
Speaker 1: just love about it is it's a thirty five dollars
Speaker 1: local course in a rural town and it knows what
Speaker 1: it is. It's a great golf course, but it's maintained
Speaker 1: to be a thirty five dollars course. It's got single
Speaker 1: row irrigation, you know, single cut grass. If you go
Speaker 1: on and read like Golf Advisor comments, it's funny because
Speaker 1: everybody complains about the fairways being you know, a half
Speaker 1: inch long, and it's like, well, that's why it cost
Speaker 1: you thirty five bucks because they aren't trying to be
Speaker 1: something and it's you know, they just go out there,
Speaker 1: they gang mow it. And then the native is absolutely
Speaker 1: perfect and it's got this great set of greens, but
Speaker 1: nobody would say it's a perfect golf course. But that's
Speaker 1: one that left like a lasting impact on me is like,
Speaker 1: here's a perfect example of how you can make affordable golf.
Speaker 1: And with what you're talking about is like, you know,
Speaker 1: pushing ideas everywhere. Doesn't have to be the world's greatest
Speaker 1: golf course, but you can have a golf course that's
Speaker 1: not one of the best courses in the world, but
Speaker 1: is one of the most memorable courses in the world.
Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah, you know, Chris and I sometimes we've started
Speaker 2: saying using the term best in show, right that, because
Speaker 2: it's hard. How do you compare a Part three golf course,
Speaker 2: you know, to Shunecock. They're just so different. But so
Speaker 2: if we're going to build a Part three course, we
Speaker 2: want to build the greatest Part three course that we can, right.
Speaker 2: And if we're gonna build a championship course, we want
Speaker 2: to build the greatest championship course possible. If we're going
Speaker 2: to build a local municipal golf course that you know,
Speaker 2: you could charge twenty bucks and maintain for three hundred
Speaker 2: thousand dollars a year, that's its own category. We want
Speaker 2: to do the best possible. So it's about doing the
Speaker 2: best work you can given you know, the specific product
Speaker 2: that you're trying to achieve.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what you're trying to achieve, Right, It's all about
Speaker 1: the focus because like you can make a case and
Speaker 1: people would think this is crazy but like that, the
Speaker 1: Sandbox is the most successful golf course you have. It's
Speaker 1: at sand Valley, and if people and a lot of
Speaker 1: people would be like, it's a seventeen hole part three course. Yeah,
Speaker 1: how can you say that? And it's not like the
Speaker 1: other courses aren't. I mean, they're both wildly successful.
Speaker 2: But given the hooting, I mean it depends on so
Speaker 2: how do you measure it the hooting and hollering and
Speaker 2: the fun that you have. It's got to be up
Speaker 2: there near the top, right in terms of on the property,
Speaker 2: and you know, it uses less resources, they're cheaper to build.
Speaker 2: It is the highest ri in the property. Par three
Speaker 2: courses are great investments right there. There. There's less turf
Speaker 2: on that entire golf course and heads than there are
Speaker 2: one hole you know, of the resort. So yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean basically the bottom line is we want to measure
Speaker 2: success through happiness and enjoyment, right.
Speaker 1: The measure heads on the entire sandbox? Oh yeah then one.
Speaker 2: Hole, yeah, one of the bigger holes that yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: absolutely wow. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Why don't more Why haven't more municipalities turned to less conventional.
Speaker 2: I have no idea what we're trying to do it,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm here here in Madison. It'll happen. There'll
Speaker 2: be a lag. I think municipalities will be forced to
Speaker 2: consider alternative ways of entertaining golfers in their communities for
Speaker 2: a variety of reasons, but the biggest is economic. So
Speaker 2: I think they will think. I think there's there have
Speaker 2: been some. I mean, you mentioned, you know, you mentioned one,
Speaker 2: and wild Horse is one of my favorite, well my
Speaker 2: favorite municipal course you know, in the country in Nebraska.
Speaker 2: So I think they will.
Speaker 1: It might just take a while with Wildhorse your favorite.
Speaker 2: It's just it's a fabulous golf course and it's fifty
Speaker 2: I think fifty five bucks with a car on a
Speaker 2: Saturday in the summer, and the price goes down from there.
Speaker 2: So I think it's the greatest value. They're interesting, thoughtful
Speaker 2: golf holes designed by Dave Excellent and Dan Proctor, you
Speaker 2: know in the sand Hills of Nebraska. They're fun holes
Speaker 2: to play. They're all different. You know, is it pound
Speaker 2: for pound and what you're paying. It's just great value.
Speaker 2: It's of course you'd be happy playing every Saturday, right,
Speaker 2: It's just it's awesome. So, you know, Wolf Point, which
Speaker 2: is maybe maybe was the most exclusive club right a
Speaker 2: club for one. You know, this guy and his best
Speaker 2: friend would play every morning. I actually think the architecture
Speaker 2: and the way it was built is the perfect model
Speaker 2: for municipal golf course. You know, outside of the greens,
Speaker 2: everything is cut with a gang more at one length.
Speaker 2: It's pretty high length. So for me, I love it.
Speaker 2: I could spray it all over. But you know people
Speaker 2: have called it, you know, like Saint Andrew's in Texas.
Speaker 2: The angles are so important, so I'm just happy that
Speaker 2: I'm in the fairway whereas you're, you know, really trying
Speaker 2: to be in the right position to come at these
Speaker 2: greens from the right angle so you could get close
Speaker 2: so one height except for greens they had. I know
Speaker 2: it's sold like last week in auction. I don't know
Speaker 2: what's going to happen to it. But they had three
Speaker 2: part time people in the maintenance crew maintained the whole
Speaker 2: golf course. Now they were maintaining it for one person,
Speaker 2: so that would be different if there were at thirty
Speaker 2: thousand rounds. But the way it was designed made it
Speaker 2: a lot easier to maintain for less cost. And I
Speaker 2: think municipal courses should should build, should hire Mike newso
Speaker 2: to build golf courses like wolf Point or other talented architects.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's it. That's the thing that gets
Speaker 1: so lost with the whole everything is designing it to
Speaker 1: be maintained for very little amount of money, like really
Speaker 1: interesting design that comes with a low maintenance bill.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I feel like a lot of municipalities end up
Speaker 1: going the opposite way where it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean unfortunately a lot. I mean if you
Speaker 2: ask a lot of they would think that the course
Speaker 2: that's in quote better condition is a better golf course
Speaker 2: than some of those others that are in lesser condition.
Speaker 2: So I don't know how to change that perception and
Speaker 2: get the priorities right so that people are looking for
Speaker 2: the most interesting architecture. I think, you know, through podcasts
Speaker 2: like yours, hopefully you know, creating awareness in the general
Speaker 2: golfing community or at least among you know. I think
Speaker 2: your listeners are the leaders in the golfing community and
Speaker 2: those ideas flow out from them. But you need to
Speaker 2: change that priority and has to start with the retail
Speaker 2: golfer where they want to pay, whether it's ten bucks
Speaker 2: or fifty bucks or one hundred bucks, they want their
Speaker 2: money to go into great architecture and not necessarily into
Speaker 2: flawless fairways. Askernition Scotland is I don't know what they
Speaker 2: spend maintaining that golf course, but it's very little. I
Speaker 2: don't remember too many bunkers. But it's a perfect golf course.
Speaker 2: It's not a perfect golfiger. It's a course you would
Speaker 2: just be delayed did playing every day of the week.
Speaker 2: You know. It's so so they're get I think there's
Speaker 2: many more of those courses, you know, in the UK
Speaker 2: than in the US, but they figured out how to
Speaker 2: do it, and a lot of that is not caring
Speaker 2: what their fairways look like. Fisher's Island, which is, you know,
Speaker 2: a very elite golf club, a fabulous golf course architecturally,
Speaker 2: I'm the most stunning, you know, respectacular views anywhere. I
Speaker 2: just have so much respect for They've never put in
Speaker 2: even single rote irrigation. They don't have fairwell irrigation. They don't.
Speaker 2: They don't care, you know, they're proud of the architecture
Speaker 2: of their golf club. And I think they you know,
Speaker 2: if only everybody had, you know, if they hosted the Masters,
Speaker 2: maybe everybody would have tried to, you know, be like
Speaker 2: be like them. But you know that that's that should
Speaker 2: be the example. You know that we follow just great architecture,
Speaker 2: stunning architecture, but you know, everybody has an equal chance
Speaker 2: of getting a good or bad liam in the fairway.
Speaker 2: It all evens out. Play it where it lies, and
Speaker 2: don't worry so much about perfectly consistent, immaculate you know fairways.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that's there's always been a
Speaker 1: strong element of chance and golf, and the more uniform
Speaker 1: you get with conditioning and actually the expectations of golfers
Speaker 1: gets higher. The less and less chance and the more
Speaker 1: and more bad luck becomes a frustration point for golfers.
Speaker 1: That's the other thing is sure, like rubb of the
Speaker 1: greens always been a big part of the game, and
Speaker 1: that's kind of part of the game, is like, it's
Speaker 1: part of the challenges when you get bad breaks dealing
Speaker 1: with them.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And there's a skill in that, and there's
Speaker 2: a the skill is your one's character and it's a
Speaker 2: great revelation of someone's character. This is an odd side
Speaker 2: point being allowsy golfer. One of the reasons I'm lousy
Speaker 2: is I don't hit down on the ball enough. I
Speaker 2: don't compress it.
Speaker 1: You're a sweeper.
Speaker 2: I'm a sweeper.
Speaker 1: I'm a sweeper too.
Speaker 2: You're a much better sweeper that I have. Chimney sweep.
Speaker 2: But I hit some of my best golf shots when
Speaker 2: I end up in a divot, and I'm sort of
Speaker 2: hoping I'm in a dibbot because the only way out
Speaker 2: you can't sweep it out of a divot because you're
Speaker 2: just sweeping the top of the ball. You have to
Speaker 2: hit down on it. And I'm amazed. Some of my
Speaker 2: best shots are when I'm in a divot because I
Speaker 2: am forced to hit down on the ball. So maybe
Speaker 2: maybe we should praise for, you know, being in more dibbots.
Speaker 1: What we talked a little bit earlier about like the
Speaker 1: hustle and at barm Google and the first time I
Speaker 1: visited Sand Valley it was, you know, single trailer, you know,
Speaker 1: sand everywhere, no structures, And every time I drive back
Speaker 1: and now I'm like, oh man, look at this is just
Speaker 1: you know that it's just building, it's growing up. I
Speaker 1: imagine that your job changes so much when the the
Speaker 1: skills required at the beginning stages of a resort versus
Speaker 1: you know, as you're scaling it are so different. Do
Speaker 1: you do you prefer one part of it more than
Speaker 1: the other.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but there's yeah. So when you look at
Speaker 2: all the jobs at a resort, they change over time.
Speaker 2: What my focus changes less, It does change, but I'm
Speaker 2: not deeply involved, you know, in the day to day
Speaker 2: operations of a golf resort, so that changes. Once you're open.
Speaker 2: You need to operate it right and deal with hundreds
Speaker 2: of people today, you know, passing through. So in terms
Speaker 2: of what I do, I guess I'm always a year
Speaker 2: to two to five years out ahead, right, developing and
Speaker 2: planning what's going to come now, getting the first hall
Speaker 2: out of the ground, there's maybe some skills that are
Speaker 2: different than when you're onto the third course. But my
Speaker 2: job it changes a ton hour to hour and day
Speaker 2: to day. Right, There's so many different things going on
Speaker 2: at a resort, but year to year there's there's general
Speaker 2: there's general consistency. What I would say is this sounds odd,
Speaker 2: but the greatest letdown is the day the course opens
Speaker 2: or the day after, you know, the day it opens.
Speaker 2: Chris and I are the first t ats and Valley.
Speaker 2: You know, my dad's on the first t abandoned, you know,
Speaker 2: and you're just seeing excited, funk golfers and that energy
Speaker 2: is amazing. There's nothing better, although the Texans. I remember
Speaker 2: when Sand Valley opened, it was like a freak cold,
Speaker 2: windy day and we were teasing mister Well, we were
Speaker 2: all just joking about how it was a miserable day,
Speaker 2: but it was a delightful day. The process is so
Speaker 2: enjoyable and rewarding. I mean it's hard. I mean it's
Speaker 2: brutally hard right to get it, as you know, to
Speaker 2: get any business off the ground, but it's also extremely
Speaker 2: fun and rewarding. And the day it's over, it's like
Speaker 2: we got to go on to the next thing. Right.
Speaker 2: It's an addiction, and I'm my personality doesn't let me
Speaker 2: just enjoy it. And you know, we're there, Let's soak
Speaker 2: it up a little bit, let's relax, let's enjoy it.
Speaker 2: It's it's already on to we got to do this again, right,
Speaker 2: So I guess what changes is once it opens. There
Speaker 2: is a focus and we have you know, some involvement
Speaker 2: you know in the operations sort of big picture. But
Speaker 2: but it's a letdown when we open, we have to
Speaker 2: go do it again. And we're never going to stop
Speaker 2: because we wouldn't we wouldn't be able to just hold court,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: And the that's the worst thing that could happen to
Speaker 1: you is if they just said it. You can't do
Speaker 1: anything right now to be.
Speaker 2: The worst and you know there there. We're never going
Speaker 2: to run out of golf sites, you know, we I've
Speaker 2: worried about that in the past, and I think people
Speaker 2: have talked about that. There's millions of great golf, millions
Speaker 2: of great golf sites around the world, So we're not
Speaker 2: going to run out of sites. I do start to worry,
Speaker 2: you know, our main focus are these destination golf resorts.
Speaker 2: You know, eventually will we begin you know, and that
Speaker 2: would be a great problem if we're lucky enough to
Speaker 2: start saturating the market, But then we would do you know,
Speaker 2: regional golf resorts. You know. I would love to spend
Speaker 2: time in my life building great, affordable, municipal golf courses.
Speaker 2: You know. That's that's something that I hope years from
Speaker 2: now we could be talking about some of those that
Speaker 2: we're doing, like the courses that we're just talking about.
Speaker 2: But well, I'll never stop. And not knowing my brother
Speaker 2: and my dad. They're never going to stop either, so
Speaker 2: we're keep going.
Speaker 1: It's funny how that, like how your worries change, like
Speaker 1: you just talked about, like you know, and I get
Speaker 1: a lot of people that message me is like, you know,
Speaker 1: when are there isn't aren't they going to run out
Speaker 1: of sandy? Site? Aren't is in the world? And I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know how much sand there is out there?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think yeah. It's when you start looking for
Speaker 2: it and finding sites, which I now spend some of
Speaker 2: my time doing. It's then you're relieved at you know,
Speaker 2: the challenge is whittling it down to the best sites,
Speaker 2: and then ninety nine percent of the challenges is then
Speaker 2: getting it done right. But we're never at golf is
Speaker 2: never going to run out of sites. I mean, for
Speaker 2: environmental reasons, coastal sites may become harder and harder to
Speaker 2: develop in this country and in the EU, so those
Speaker 2: might be off the table at some point. But fabulous goal.
Speaker 2: I mean if you drive I did a drive this
Speaker 2: summer from Valentine, Nebraska to Denver, Colorado, and the entire
Speaker 2: drive you're looking left and right and you're seeing nothing
Speaker 2: but great golf courses right and that's on one road.
Speaker 2: You know, that's just one region in our country and
Speaker 2: one country on the planet. There's a huge percentage of
Speaker 2: our planet is sand, and we're not going to run
Speaker 2: out of sand sites.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing when you drive through an area and
Speaker 1: like it's really it's almost hard to drive because yeah,
Speaker 1: you can just see the holes going and it's what's
Speaker 1: uh you say, you enjoy your enjoy the conclusion, it's
Speaker 1: almost bittersweet.
Speaker 2: It's it's more bitter. It's more bitter because the process
Speaker 2: is so sweet that almost the only thing we're left
Speaker 2: with is it's over. And it's not over. There's new
Speaker 2: challenges and new joys, but the fun isn't doing it.
Speaker 1: But what's the point where you take the most satisfaction
Speaker 1: in a new course build?
Speaker 2: I would say when like in the early stages of
Speaker 2: developing a concept, So when either finding a new site
Speaker 2: or this project that we're working with Jim Orbina on,
Speaker 2: you know, those those first moments first time we see
Speaker 2: the site, when you're looking around and seeing nothing but
Speaker 2: golf holes in all directions, when anything is possible, that's
Speaker 2: the fun point when anything is possible. And then it's
Speaker 2: also fun to start whittling that down into a reality,
Speaker 2: which is your vision, right or your shared vision right.
Speaker 2: It's a very collaborative process. So, but those those first
Speaker 2: moments on a site, you're just starting. You know, it's
Speaker 2: like being on a first date. Right. I remember when
Speaker 2: I met my wife, and you know, those those first
Speaker 2: dates are so exciting. Anything is possible, and I want
Speaker 2: to get to know this person. It's been every you know.
Speaker 1: And like everything else in the world goes just shuts up,
Speaker 1: and it's the it's like almost like a maniacal focus
Speaker 1: on what. I remember. When I met my wife, it
Speaker 1: was you know, like I was sitting at a bar
Speaker 1: with a bunch of buddies and then like I met
Speaker 1: her and then it was it was everything else, nothing
Speaker 1: else matter. Yeah, for the you know, and it was
Speaker 1: just it. And I imagine when you get in a
Speaker 1: creative process, it's very similar. Like where I'll be doing something,
Speaker 1: whether it's writing or working on something, and I'll realize
Speaker 1: it's like it's like eight pm. I haven't been out
Speaker 1: of my basement in eight hours. I haven't eaten anything,
Speaker 1: I haven't drank anything. And I imagine that's getting lost
Speaker 1: in a project.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then oh it's dark and we're three miles
Speaker 2: we got to make our way back. How did it
Speaker 2: get dark? And then any of the moments spent with
Speaker 2: the architects, you know, most you know, most of what
Speaker 2: I guess I do is not that glamorous, right, It's
Speaker 2: not walking with Tom Doak or Bill. And there are
Speaker 2: other really fun you know, as we develop restaurants that's fun,
Speaker 2: and lodging, but really any time spent with the architects
Speaker 2: or with my brother and my dad, you know, on
Speaker 2: the ground, and those are the most fun. But the
Speaker 2: early days are really really exciting.
Speaker 1: It's the hustle.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess so, I
Speaker 2: guess the hustle begins. It's the beginning of the hustle.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it. I struggle. Once I get things going
Speaker 1: with with then just like keep going on them. I
Speaker 1: always want to start new stuff. Yeah, And it's you know,
Speaker 1: I have to get on myself about like, no, you
Speaker 1: can't just abandon doing this because people like you know,
Speaker 1: it's like but there's always I think there's different personality
Speaker 1: types and being your builder, you know, you want to
Speaker 1: you always want to be working on the next thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's real. I think it's hard
Speaker 2: for anybody who's who's creative, but it's really important. And
Speaker 2: I've noticed people are successful they focus on one thing
Speaker 2: until they see it all the way through to fruition
Speaker 2: and at a resort, whether it's the next golf course
Speaker 2: or you know, we could cater there's just so many
Speaker 2: directions we could go in. And my personality goes. My
Speaker 2: mind goes in a lot of directions. And one of
Speaker 2: the things I'm proud of is staying completely focused on
Speaker 2: the project, whatever the sub project is, the golf course,
Speaker 2: in the hotel, the restaurant, until we're there, right, and
Speaker 2: you're never there, you always refining it. But okay, now
Speaker 2: let's go to the next step, you know, so to
Speaker 2: force myself to be linear. And here's step one, there's
Speaker 2: step two, then step three. Now we could get into
Speaker 2: this area. But it took five years. And even though
Speaker 2: we wanted to do it in year zero through five,
Speaker 2: you know, we waited because we're And that's that's discipline, right,
Speaker 2: And it takes discipline when you have a mind that
Speaker 2: does tend to go in a lot of.
Speaker 1: It's getting it somewhere where it's ready to hand off
Speaker 1: and where somebody that can execute it to the end
Speaker 1: is And that's you know, that's like so it's so
Speaker 1: relatable to so many other businesses.
Speaker 2: I think, starting any business. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1: So it would talk about personalities of architects. You spend
Speaker 1: a ton of time with architects. You've worked you know
Speaker 1: at sand Valley alone. Now you're working with Tom, but
Speaker 1: you worked with Bill and Ben and David McLay kid.
Speaker 1: Do you notice that do each of them have different
Speaker 1: kind of things that they that different personalities that yield
Speaker 1: different strengths and different you know from what they bring
Speaker 1: to the table.
Speaker 2: Yes, they all very different personalities to start with. They're
Speaker 2: all just delightful people that you want to spend time
Speaker 2: with and really wonderful human beings, right, And you know,
Speaker 2: I think deservedly, Bill and Ben have that that reputation
Speaker 2: on you know, not just being brilliant architects, but being
Speaker 2: really wonderful human beings and caring about the people in
Speaker 2: their lives and treating all people that they interact with
Speaker 2: with respect. So and that's deserved. You know, I think
Speaker 2: I didn't well, I knew David a little bit when
Speaker 2: he was young and maybe more brash, but I've known
Speaker 2: him now, I guess more in his forties and I won't.
Speaker 2: I don't, I won't. I don't know his age now,
Speaker 2: but he might be maybe he's fifty now.
Speaker 1: But I feel like I fine. I saw it was
Speaker 1: a big birthday.
Speaker 2: It's Scotland, his fortieth. But but he's a really wonderful
Speaker 2: person and not enough people, I guess. I guess people
Speaker 2: who know him know that, uh. And he's very empathetic.
Speaker 2: Our staff loves him, he treats he treats people you know,
Speaker 2: so kindly, and he really cares about the people he
Speaker 2: works with that you know. And from what I know
Speaker 2: about Tom, he's you know, his team loves him and
Speaker 2: he's been such a delight to work with. You know,
Speaker 2: He's so they're are just as a starting point. These
Speaker 2: are really wonderful, you know, human beings, and that's the
Speaker 2: most important part, and to me, that's a prerequisite. You know,
Speaker 2: you need to be smart, right, you need to be
Speaker 2: really hard working, they all are, but you also have
Speaker 2: to be a good person, right, because we only get
Speaker 2: one crack at this life and we want to enjoy it.
Speaker 2: To answer your question, I think I think you know,
Speaker 2: there's the fast brain, slow brain, right. I think Bill
Speaker 2: and Ben are extraordinarily deliberate. They do you know, they'll have,
Speaker 2: you know, the reputation which is earned to maybe sit
Speaker 2: you know in a single place for hours on end
Speaker 2: and stand or you know, Dick Young Scaps tells the
Speaker 2: story about you know, seeing Bill cor down on his
Speaker 2: belly just looking at the horizon for like game back.
Speaker 2: Hours later. He's still there. But he thinks really hard
Speaker 2: and long. He's very deliberate, and and he worked, you know,
Speaker 2: he works, and his whole team and Ben they work.
Speaker 2: You know, they work past dark. You know, Jimmy Craig
Speaker 2: would would just bring his car out to a green
Speaker 2: and put the floodlights on and keep going. You know,
Speaker 2: night wouldn't stop them. So that whole team is really deliberate.
Speaker 2: Nothing is russ. Let's really think this through. David has
Speaker 2: a very fast, fast brain, right, I mean he's he's
Speaker 2: very intuitive, you know, and he has these flashes of
Speaker 2: brilliance where it comes to him in a flash. And
Speaker 2: that's not neither method is better. But David is a
Speaker 2: very fast running brain and he gets inspired and boom,
Speaker 2: that's it. Let's go and he'll come up with an
Speaker 2: entire great concept and you know, in a moment he doesn't.
Speaker 2: You know, he does grond all these architects after grind,
Speaker 2: he grinds through it. But I've seen he has more flashes.
Speaker 2: Their methods are different. I think Bill and Ben phil more.
Speaker 2: I think Jason Way wrote an article for you on that,
Speaker 2: and David tends to cut. And you know Tom's personality
Speaker 2: and these are big stereotypes because they all have such
Speaker 2: dynamic personality. It seems to be very analytical. You know,
Speaker 2: he's seen, you know, maybe along with Darius Oliver, you know,
Speaker 2: more golf courses than anybody else on the planet, and
Speaker 2: thought really hard about every single one of them. And
Speaker 2: he has just this repertoire of images and ideas and
Speaker 2: has head that he has spent a lot of time
Speaker 2: thinking about, thinking hard about logically, about talking with people
Speaker 2: about He's so thoughtful and analytical. But I'm still I'm
Speaker 2: still getting in to know him and what his personality is.
Speaker 2: I find his whole you know, he wrote, Look, he
Speaker 2: wrote Confidential Guide, and I know that shocked some people.
Speaker 2: I find I find Tom so refreshing because you know,
Speaker 2: it's it's not emotional.
Speaker 1: It's not personality.
Speaker 2: It's just honest, and you don't see a lot of it, right,
Speaker 2: And we all tend to try to soften the message
Speaker 2: and sugarcoat it, and he doesn't. I really respect that.
Speaker 1: He's very authentic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what you're getting.
Speaker 1: And I think that's one of the things that it's
Speaker 1: everybody's got. Everybody's personality is they're all their own artists, right,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of different personality within the art
Speaker 1: artists repertoire. It's just a It's an interesting thing to
Speaker 1: think about because as I've gotten to know all of them,
Speaker 1: you start to see the personality and their work, you know.
Speaker 1: And it's like Tom is always going to be trying
Speaker 1: to put you know, and do something new, Like he's
Speaker 1: somebody that is you know. He does not like to
Speaker 1: build the same type of golf course like and he will.
Speaker 1: I feel like that's the thing that he least wants
Speaker 1: to do. Yeah, is if somebody said, hey, I want
Speaker 1: you to build another Pacific Dunes, he'd be like, I'm
Speaker 1: not the guy for your job, you know.
Speaker 2: And that's really cool, right, And he's gonna keep He's
Speaker 2: gonna be he's gonna be pushing boundaries because he just
Speaker 2: doesn't have interest in doing anything twice. Yeah, but I
Speaker 2: think that could be said in different ways to to
Speaker 2: you know, to all these great architects that they're not
Speaker 2: you know, they're not if you know, I don't think
Speaker 2: Bill wants to do another sand Hills, you know, or
Speaker 2: another Trails, or he wants to try some something different.
Speaker 2: But sometimes you know, you asked Tom about, you know,
Speaker 2: which of his holes would he template? And maybe sometimes
Speaker 2: they should. If it's a great theme, you know, maybe
Speaker 2: they should, they should go back and play play off
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 1: It's interesting to think about with like UH, with Rainer
Speaker 1: and UH and like McDonald and the templates and and
Speaker 1: how I guess you know, modern art is people love them.
Speaker 1: You I think it's because people know what to expect
Speaker 1: in a way, you know, like they know what they're
Speaker 1: getting into and they can recognize it, and they've I
Speaker 1: think people like the familiarity of them.
Speaker 2: Well, they're already familiar with the strategy, right so over
Speaker 2: time it's either been explained to them or they've learned
Speaker 2: it through repetition. And it's nice to have that advantage
Speaker 2: on the tea to know, you know, what the objectives
Speaker 2: are and what you know, so maybe there's something there
Speaker 2: that the strategy is.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's there. They don't golfers hate discomfort and templates
Speaker 1: make them comfortable. Yeah, you know, yeah, it's it's an
Speaker 1: interesting thing.
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously this isn't an original observation, but you know,
Speaker 2: jazz standards. You know, jazz musicians love creating new music,
Speaker 2: but they also love riffing off of a standard, right,
Speaker 2: and there's you know, Caravan is one of my favorite
Speaker 2: you know songs, and everybody plays it differently, and it's
Speaker 2: cool to see how you know, Rainer, you know, and
Speaker 2: McDonald used templates. It'd be neat if it was more common.
Speaker 2: And you know, Tom and Bill do you know dance,
Speaker 2: But if it was more common, just to see how
Speaker 2: a different artist interprets a different standard. Again, I'd love
Speaker 2: hearing and a lot of jazz standards, but Caravan is
Speaker 2: played by so many different people and it's like they're
Speaker 2: different songs.
Speaker 1: So and so with you guys, a you've done most
Speaker 1: of your golf court people would put it in the
Speaker 1: minimalism bank. Whether whether you like the word or not,
Speaker 1: you know, whether you like the stereotype, they're very lay
Speaker 1: of the land. Would you guys ever think about doing
Speaker 1: something drastically different where it was a a type of
Speaker 1: facility you just that is you take a sight and
Speaker 1: you completely transform it.
Speaker 2: Think about it. I don't know if we'll ever do it,
Speaker 2: but we've I've thought about it. Uh. You know, one
Speaker 2: thing my dad's talked a lot about is rebuilding the lido, right,
Speaker 2: so that would that would be building. Of course it's
Speaker 2: already been built, but also the original lido was completely manufactured.
Speaker 2: I've thought about it the Actually I called mister Core
Speaker 2: recently to just to just to have a similar conversation,
Speaker 2: because here's what I was I'm curious about that. There
Speaker 2: are times when you know, these architects have to manufacture
Speaker 2: tea's or greens compared to the guys who move, you know,
Speaker 2: millions of acres. It's nothing right, but it's not to
Speaker 2: say that they're never moving any any dirt at all.
Speaker 2: And you know, the architects we're lucky enough to work with,
Speaker 2: you'd never you never know. Uh, they're so good that
Speaker 2: I've started to wonder. This is going to sound blasphemous,
Speaker 2: but you know, if Bill Core wasn't constrained, you know,
Speaker 2: by God's starting point, what might he come up with?
Speaker 2: Right if, like Leedo, it was a blank palette, pure
Speaker 2: sand and just just what, you know what, what's so
Speaker 2: you're not riffing off of it. I'm just really curious
Speaker 2: what he might come up with, and I suspect it might.
Speaker 2: It might maybe, I don't know. Maybe it's even better.
Speaker 2: We're so lucky in that we have access to such
Speaker 2: great sites that I think it's it's a fun thing
Speaker 2: to think about, but it will probably always remain sort
Speaker 2: of an intellectual conversation because if you have this perfectly
Speaker 2: flat piece of sand versus a great site, how could
Speaker 2: you It's almost like our responsibility. There's always gonna be
Speaker 2: the perfectly flat site. So I think it will always
Speaker 2: be pushed off into the future and therefore never done
Speaker 2: because why wouldn't you, Why wouldn't you develop? But with
Speaker 2: the exception of I would say the Leado at some point,
Speaker 2: I mean, that was such a spectacular golf course. To
Speaker 2: restore that at some point in time would be It's
Speaker 2: something I know that something my dads want to do
Speaker 2: for a long time, and I've caught the bug. It's
Speaker 2: something I want to do. Uh So and I know
Speaker 2: it's something that Chris is excited about too. So at
Speaker 2: the right moment in time, with the right site, I
Speaker 2: think we do the lido, and gosh, I would love
Speaker 2: to see I don't think we'll do it, but I'd
Speaker 2: love to see what any of these architects would do
Speaker 2: with a carte blonde, just carte blanche site. And so,
Speaker 2: you know, another thing that's been talked about, and Bill
Speaker 2: and Ben have talked about for a long time is
Speaker 2: you know, she gets somebody who knows nothing about architecture
Speaker 2: to go and just rough it up and then come
Speaker 2: back thirty years later. And in some sense, that's what
Speaker 2: happened at stream Song, right, and it resulted in a
Speaker 2: really great landscape for golf. So if you don't know
Speaker 2: how to find a great piece of land, or you know,
Speaker 2: if it seems out of reach, then just go just
Speaker 2: go mess it up and if it's sand, and then
Speaker 2: let God take over for thirty years and come back.
Speaker 2: And if you don't have thirty years, come back twenty
Speaker 2: years or ten years.
Speaker 1: I has gotten a long conversation with Mike Cocking this
Speaker 1: summer about something similar about the idea of just of
Speaker 1: just like you know, having somebody and not communicating with
Speaker 1: the person that went out there and moved all this
Speaker 1: stuff around. Have them just go crazy for like a
Speaker 1: week moving dirt all over the place and then just
Speaker 1: leave it for a couple of years and come back.
Speaker 1: But then the economics I imagine of holding the land
Speaker 1: would be one of the problems, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, certainly.
Speaker 1: Because that's what we got talking about this, because we
Speaker 1: talk about how how golf kind of started to get
Speaker 1: built in these funnels, and they'd build all the this,
Speaker 1: they create all this stuff on the outside, whereas if
Speaker 1: you almost routed over all the stuff they created and
Speaker 1: built the golf over it, whereas it as opposed to
Speaker 1: it being on the xterior, if being played over, you'd
Speaker 1: have really cool stuff like the eighth hole at Prairie Dunes,
Speaker 1: where you know you I.
Speaker 2: Think you'll see I think you'll see more of that
Speaker 2: at tom Sedge Valley, at Sand Valley, he's playing up
Speaker 2: and over like the the ground that he covers on
Speaker 2: the fairway is maybe you know, more dramatic like like
Speaker 2: what you're describing there. But going to the economics of
Speaker 2: of that conversation, the carrying costs of the land, certainly
Speaker 2: there's there's a carrying cost. But let's let's just do
Speaker 2: the math for a second. Let's say you bought three
Speaker 2: hundred acres at one thousand dollars an acre, and you
Speaker 2: buy it less than that. So let's say five hundred
Speaker 2: dollars an acre thousand dollars one point five million dollars.
Speaker 2: Just so we're not embarrassed.
Speaker 1: Let's let's I embarrass myself all the time.
Speaker 2: Let's bring later. I'd say you have three hundred times
Speaker 2: five hundred. That's one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, right
Speaker 2: and in you know, interest rates were just lowered on Monday.
Speaker 2: But let's say you can you could borrow it under
Speaker 2: two percent. But let's just say you borrow it two percent,
Speaker 2: which would be a really great uh rate. Your interest
Speaker 2: would be three thousand dollars a year. You know, So
Speaker 2: you had, principle, not a huge caring cost, right for
Speaker 2: given the potential upside of a great so I don't
Speaker 2: think you have to leave it for thirty I think
Speaker 2: at seven, I saw a piece of ground and I
Speaker 2: won't name the architect, but it was a perfectly flat
Speaker 2: site when he found it, and he did this, you know,
Speaker 2: millions of acres of sand. He moved around and created
Speaker 2: these great macro movements. Then the crash came in two
Speaker 2: thousand and eight and the project got killed right and
Speaker 2: I was with Will Smith from the Outpost Club, and
Speaker 2: I don't know, I forget what we were doing on
Speaker 2: the trip, but just I think like we were looking
Speaker 2: at map quests. I used to see this big blob
Speaker 2: of sand, so it was like, let's go, let's go
Speaker 2: do that, you know. So we're trespassing, jumping over gates
Speaker 2: to get to this big thing sand, and we just
Speaker 2: see these massive sixty foot sand dunes and this is
Speaker 2: in a place of the country there's no contour, perfectly flat.
Speaker 2: We're like, oh my god, this is amazing. And we're
Speaker 2: walking around and then we ended up figuring out that it,
Speaker 2: you know, had originally been intended to be a golf course.
Speaker 2: But this was seven years after the crash, So this
Speaker 2: was twenty fifteen, and these pines had grown fifteen feet tall,
Speaker 2: grasses had moved in, you know, nature took over, and
Speaker 2: then when you have organic matter, then the sand catches
Speaker 2: that when it blows around. So seven years later, the
Speaker 2: site was little small. It was probably on one hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty acres. But if you had three hundred acres
Speaker 2: of that, I call it a perfect sand site. So
Speaker 2: if you could buy three hundred acres, buy it for
Speaker 2: five hundred acre, those carrying costs are if you're successful,
Speaker 2: small drop in the bucket, right, So you know, now
Speaker 2: if you're buying a ten thousand acre and if you
Speaker 2: buy a thousand acres, those are different numbers. But I
Speaker 2: get yeah, it could work, It could work. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's ah.
Speaker 1: That's an interesting way to think about it, because then
Speaker 1: it's not that bad. Then you just got to hire
Speaker 1: a guy to It's like the McKenzie quote, how do
Speaker 1: you mess it up? Build a flat? How do you
Speaker 1: build an interesting grain? Hire the biggest city and tell
Speaker 1: them to make it flat.
Speaker 2: And give them a six pack of beer'll make it
Speaker 2: even better. So actually that's where the real costs would
Speaker 2: come in, because to make a big mass with sixty
Speaker 2: foot dunes or forty foot dunes to you know, to move,
Speaker 2: you know, even if it's just a million yards, that
Speaker 2: would be a real that would be the cost. And
Speaker 2: that's you.
Speaker 1: Don't even have to make it big though, because I
Speaker 1: think the most interesting stuff is the micro Yeah, how
Speaker 1: do you balance that with retail? I bet you there
Speaker 1: there's a shock and awe, especially at San Valley where
Speaker 1: you have to you don't have an ocean. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: need dramatics, They need something dramatic versus like a Garden
Speaker 1: City where the subtle the is.
Speaker 2: I haven't played Garden City, but Chicago Golf I think
Speaker 2: is one of the great golf courses on the planet.
Speaker 2: And if it turned public tomorrow, be successful because everybody would,
Speaker 2: you know, because it's the top twenty legitimate top twenty
Speaker 2: golf course.
Speaker 1: But if it didn't have a name, if we build.
Speaker 2: It, I don't know. I think I think people would
Speaker 2: identify it as spectacular, but people would play it and
Speaker 2: check it off their list and move on. And I
Speaker 2: hate to say that because it's one of my very
Speaker 2: favorite courses on the planet, but I don't know if
Speaker 2: it could be a retail home run uh success if
Speaker 2: we put it next to Sand Valley or Mammoth or
Speaker 2: Sedge Valley. What we're trying to do a Jim Orbinos.
Speaker 2: We have this land that has you know, these these
Speaker 2: great you know, micro contours and then these big dunes
Speaker 2: that don't really come into play right, and in a sense,
Speaker 2: I mean Sand Valley and Mammoth are that way. There's
Speaker 2: just great moving land that they've routed over those huge
Speaker 2: dunes which are eye candy. They're not they're not really
Speaker 2: in play, but it's nice. There's they're stunning to look at,
Speaker 2: and they're inspiring and they make you know.
Speaker 1: So it's like what David says is that those sand
Speaker 1: dudes are the ocean.
Speaker 2: It's our ocean, you know. And you know one thing
Speaker 2: my dad said early on, uh is Michael, you're selling
Speaker 2: sand right and and you know it's not just sand,
Speaker 2: We're selling the savannah. It's beautiful you know, landscape that
Speaker 2: we're restoring. But yeah, I think you need that. I mean,
Speaker 2: I'd love to be proved proven wrong. And there are
Speaker 2: examples of public golf courses that don't have that. I mean,
Speaker 2: Saint Andrews is wildly successful and doesn't doesn't have that,
Speaker 2: but it but it is so extraordinarily good and it
Speaker 2: has a six hundred year history and and a spirit
Speaker 2: to it. So there's a lot of other reasons why
Speaker 2: it's successful.
Speaker 1: I think too. There's something about like the when you
Speaker 1: have a less inspiring the reality is you're building golf
Speaker 1: courses that the normal person hopes to play once and
Speaker 1: if they're lucky, they get to play it more than once.
Speaker 1: So you have to build golf courses that on first
Speaker 1: site are like live up to the hype versus like
Speaker 1: there are golf courses that like, the more and more
Speaker 1: you play, it becomes more and more endlessly fascinating and
Speaker 1: the sub that's one of the trick I imagine the
Speaker 1: tricky things with what you do is that, like the
Speaker 1: subtle brilliance is lost sometimes on your guests because they
Speaker 1: might only get a play at once.
Speaker 2: And yeah, well but hopefully the architect will I guess,
Speaker 2: capture their imagination and bring them back or you know,
Speaker 2: I got to play this again tomorrow, or we can
Speaker 2: come back later this year. We have a lot of
Speaker 2: repeat business, so we certainly have people who come once.
Speaker 2: But I think what I think it's a balance between
Speaker 2: make sure that they love it the first time around.
Speaker 2: As soon as they walk off the eighteenth te they
Speaker 2: want to go back to the first tee, but at
Speaker 2: the same time, make sure that if they spend the
Speaker 2: next thirty years coming back, they're going to learn something
Speaker 2: new every time they play it. See something different and
Speaker 2: continuously learned something about the golf course and about themselves.
Speaker 2: And I think the best architects and we're lucky to
Speaker 2: be able to work with these genius architects achieve that.
Speaker 2: So could they could impress you the first time around,
Speaker 2: but continue to impress you on your hundredth round. And
Speaker 2: I think you see that. I mean, stan Valley's younger,
Speaker 2: but you know, Bandon, we have groups who come back
Speaker 2: every single year for twenty straight straight years.
Speaker 1: Were you guys I imagined when you built San Valley?
Speaker 1: Like the thing I find most amazing is like the
Speaker 1: ease to get to it from all these major metropolitan
Speaker 1: cities Minneapolis, Madison, Milwaukee, Chicago. How people can just get
Speaker 1: there easily. You know in Bandon you got Oregon of Portland,
Speaker 1: but like that's about Eugene.
Speaker 2: But we weren't smart enough to recognize that. I mean,
Speaker 2: we saw it as a remote destination and we're building
Speaker 2: it as if it would be hard to get to.
Speaker 2: And as you pointed out, I mean there's fifty five
Speaker 2: million people within a five hour drive and it's really
Speaker 2: easy to get to. You know, you jump in your car,
Speaker 2: you know, it takes three hours and fifteen minutes from
Speaker 2: the northern suburbs in Chicago, three and a half from downtown,
Speaker 2: less than three from.
Speaker 1: So you didn't You didn't even think about that.
Speaker 2: No, because we've I mean I didn't. My dad didn't.
Speaker 2: He's never stopped to think about demographics on any golf
Speaker 2: course he built. So it's like, why I think about
Speaker 2: it now? It's just not something when we're evaluating sites
Speaker 2: to build, you know, we don't say does it have
Speaker 2: an ocean? Does it have sand? Because they're a brilliant architect,
Speaker 2: does it have people? So we never even it's not
Speaker 2: even in our language of thought.
Speaker 1: Has it changed? Has it? Have you thought differently going
Speaker 1: forward after this Sand Valley experience.
Speaker 2: I have a little bit on the site that we're
Speaker 2: trying to get off the ground, which I hope we
Speaker 2: could talk about more details once it's off the ground.
Speaker 2: I mean, the reality is we need to stay in business,
Speaker 2: right and I think people will go to the edge
Speaker 2: of the earth when there's an ocean, and they'll drive
Speaker 2: for five hours or two or one. If you have
Speaker 2: a great site like Sand Valley, there's a site that's
Speaker 2: within several million people, but then very easy to fly
Speaker 2: to so it's great because it's close to several million,
Speaker 2: and it's great because you could fly there. But so
Speaker 2: it's something I have thought about it. It's not going
Speaker 2: to affect our our decision to move forward or not.
Speaker 2: You know, we're all in and can we get off
Speaker 2: the ground. We'll find out most projects we look at don't.
Speaker 2: But thought about it, and I think you need to
Speaker 2: go in assuming that every site's can be hard to
Speaker 2: get to. There's only three million people in the city. God,
Speaker 2: how we're going to get them here? That's better be
Speaker 2: really good. Right as soon as we start taking our
Speaker 2: our guests for granted, you know, then we're going to fail.
Speaker 2: So we have to assume that it's going to be brutal.
Speaker 2: Five hour drive, that's a long drive. Most of our
Speaker 2: guests come from less than five hours. Let's say three
Speaker 2: hour drive. That's a long drive. God, we've got to
Speaker 2: really make this great. We just have to. We have
Speaker 2: to assume that so that their expectations are exceeded when
Speaker 2: they get there. And then if it turns out that
Speaker 2: they're saying, oh, it's easy, then great. But let's assume
Speaker 2: that they're going to say what they say when they
Speaker 2: go to Bandon. It's hard to get here, but it's
Speaker 2: worth every minute, right because because of the golf and
Speaker 2: the people of the service, and you know, the spirit
Speaker 2: of the place.
Speaker 1: That makes sense. It is customer first product.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, product product to serve the customer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's all right, you've been you know, we
Speaker 1: just scratch the surface. This could be ten hours, so
Speaker 1: we'll just do it again sometimes.
Speaker 2: That'd be awesome. I always love our conversations. It was
Speaker 2: fun to do it on the pod. Thanks for inviting
Speaker 2: me on.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you coming on and we'll talk soon.
Speaker 2: Looking forward to it. Thanks to any