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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode is brought to you by our friends over

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Speaker 1: at zero Restriction. I'm actually out at Bandoned Dunes as

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Speaker 1: we speak. It's been beautiful weather, unbelievable high fifties, but

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Speaker 1: very cold mornings, and of course the wind's picking up

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Speaker 1: every once in a while. And I wouldn't be so

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Speaker 1: comfortable if I didn't have my brand new z r

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Speaker 1: Z two thousand jacket. It's a wind proof, waterproof, it's

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Speaker 1: the works. It's incredible. It's kept me really warm in

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Speaker 1: the morning. It kept me just incredibly comfortable. Comes in

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Speaker 1: all different types of colors. I would highly recommend going

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Speaker 1: to check it out at zero restriction dot com, especially

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Speaker 1: if you're in the market for new rain gear. It's

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Speaker 1: spring golf seasons upon us. Got to have a good

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Speaker 1: rain jacket and these things last forever. They're wonderful, wonderful jackets.

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Speaker 1: And if you use the code Frida Egg fifteen, you'll

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Speaker 1: get fifteen percent off your purchase. So go visit our

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Speaker 1: friends over at zero restriction dot com. Today I am

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Speaker 1: joined by Michael Kaiser Junior. This is an exciting conversation.

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Speaker 1: Michael and I talk every once in a while on

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Speaker 1: the phone, and we always end up having really long,

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Speaker 1: interesting discussions about bevies of topics that you know, range

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Speaker 1: the depths of architecture to just random things. And I

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Speaker 1: always thought it would be just good to have a

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Speaker 1: conversation just like our phone conversation. So that's kind of

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Speaker 1: how I modeled this this interview with Michael, and I

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Speaker 1: hope you guys enjoy it. I miss a green, for example,

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Speaker 1: I'm already upset when I find my ball in the bunker,

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Speaker 1: I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in a.

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Speaker 2: Fried egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg Frida egg

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Speaker 2: Frida egg egg Frida egg bride egg.

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Speaker 1: Lie, I'm about ready to run off with the hup.

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Speaker 1: How how do you go tell us about how your

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Speaker 1: menu tasting when you're trying to figure out what food

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Speaker 1: to have at Sand Valley? How do you guys go

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Speaker 1: about critiquing?

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Speaker 2: And this is really hard work we're talking about here, Andy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I got to sit in on one of

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Speaker 1: these and.

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Speaker 2: Look, it starts with the pant choice you know you

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Speaker 2: need an elastic waste. It all starts, It all starts

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Speaker 2: with the pants. I like to wear sweatpants when I'm

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Speaker 2: doing them.

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Speaker 1: Menu tasting, I remember I had to drive after it

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Speaker 1: and I was like, oh god, I'm really sleepy.

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Speaker 2: When we were first interviewing chefs for Sand Valley, I

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Speaker 2: remember the first tasting I did was in Chicago and

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Speaker 2: three entrees came out. It was like there were three

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Speaker 2: big proteins, you know, two steaks and you know, pork

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Speaker 2: chops or something, and I was just hungry and it

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Speaker 2: was delicious, so I ate, you know, all three of

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Speaker 2: them in their entirety. So three enormous entrees. You know,

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Speaker 2: we had eight courses left, so that was an important lesson. Look,

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Speaker 2: we just eat the food and we try to get

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Speaker 2: you know, a broad perspective. You know, there's six or

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Speaker 2: eight people hopefully they're you know, representative of our guests. Uh,

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Speaker 2: and we all share, you know, what we like about them,

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Speaker 2: what we don't like about them, so that you know,

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Speaker 2: that's that's the process. That's pretty simple.

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Speaker 1: Do you ever regret, you know, how you think back

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Speaker 1: about an item and say, God, I wish we would

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Speaker 1: have have kept that. Remember that.

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Speaker 2: No, No, we keep all the winners. You know, we

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Speaker 2: listen to our guests and we know what people like,

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Speaker 2: and we we I don't want to call them losers,

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Speaker 2: but we drop the losers. We keep all the winners.

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Speaker 2: So every everything that's been dropped for our menu deserve

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Speaker 2: to be dropped in. The winners are still on our

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Speaker 2: port shank. We're not getting rid of our port shank.

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Speaker 2: We're not getting rid of Grandma's meat loaf abandoned there.

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Speaker 1: They're losers. They deserve to be dropped. So when you

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Speaker 1: were in college, you and when you came out of college,

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Speaker 1: you didn't go straight into golf. What were you doing?

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Speaker 2: No? I did go straight into golf. Yeah, for a year,

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Speaker 2: and then I left it, So I moved. When I

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Speaker 2: was in college my jobs I worked at Bandon Dune's

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Speaker 2: I was. I started on the maintenance crew, which I loved,

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Speaker 2: but at four seventy three an hour, and then after taxes,

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Speaker 2: I realized that the caddies, really, you know.

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Speaker 1: They're that's where where.

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Speaker 2: Money was, right. So I started caddying and really enjoyed

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Speaker 2: that and learned a lot from these you know, outstanding

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Speaker 2: professional caddies and got to really, you know, study the

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Speaker 2: golf courses and see how our guests reacted to the

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Speaker 2: golf courses, what they liked, you know what, what they

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Speaker 2: were frustrated with. So that was that was a really

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Speaker 2: incredible experience. But honestly, my favorite job was I was

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Speaker 2: a carpenter for several years, you know, a Union card

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Speaker 2: carrying frame in Chicago, and I loved, you know, building things.

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Speaker 2: I love the people I worked with. I love the

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Speaker 2: culture of the company I worked at. So that's what

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Speaker 2: I did in in high school and college, golf and framing.

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Speaker 2: When I graduated from Santa Clara, I honestly had no

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Speaker 2: idea what I wanted to do. I was a major

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Speaker 2: in econ and Latin. I was a golfer. I had

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Speaker 2: spent three or four weeks each winter throughout college. We

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Speaker 2: were on the quarter system, so we had a big

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Speaker 2: winter break going down to Barn Google and spending time

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Speaker 2: with the settlers as they were developing their business. My

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Speaker 2: dad and I would go down. My sister came on

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Speaker 2: one of our trips, and then getting ah an extraordinary

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Speaker 2: education in the Sand Belt, playing playing these great golf courses,

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Speaker 2: and Michael Clayton, who you've had on your show, was

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Speaker 2: our our host through most of those. And there's nothing

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Speaker 2: better better than either walking or playing Oral Melbourne and

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Speaker 2: listening to Clay's talk about the architecture, and we were

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Speaker 2: joined by Jeff Ogilvie, you know several times, so to

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Speaker 2: hear them banter about you know that really really then

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Speaker 2: the minutia of the course and the big themes, right,

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Speaker 2: but all of it was, you know, I think that's

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Speaker 2: maybe when I got you know, the the I'd been

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Speaker 2: hooked on golf for a while, but that's when I

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Speaker 2: got the bug and the interest in golf course architecture.

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Speaker 2: I had been privileged before them to play some great

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Speaker 2: golf courses, but I didn't necessarily know why they were great,

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Speaker 2: and that got me curious, so that, you know, when

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Speaker 2: I went home, I started, you know, looking at golf

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Speaker 2: courses more closely and asking different questions and trying to

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Speaker 2: learn as much as I could. So I went down

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Speaker 2: there for three or four years. For a month, I

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Speaker 2: got to know the settlers, and having no idea what

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Speaker 2: I wanted to do, I called Richard Sattler and asked

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Speaker 2: him for a job. He figured, I guess because I'd

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Speaker 2: worked on golf courses and because of the relationship he

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Speaker 2: had with my dad, that I had more experience than

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Speaker 2: you know the other operations, you know, non manager employees,

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Speaker 2: not much more experience. But so I went down there

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Speaker 2: and had an incredible year, worked round the clock all

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Speaker 2: day every day. It started with me and Greg Ramsey

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Speaker 2: in a single WAT trailer in the parking lot running

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Speaker 2: the operations. The settlers were running the operations, but we

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Speaker 2: were sort of down in the dirt, you know, taking

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Speaker 2: care of our guests and you know, gorilla and burgers

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Speaker 2: and brats and running the shop and selling right. So

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Speaker 2: if there were slow times, or if you didn't need

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Speaker 2: both of us, somebody would be in the back selling right,

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Speaker 2: calling clubs in real Melbourne, just trying to get people

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Speaker 2: to bar and Google. And by the time hustle, we

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Speaker 2: were hustling, learned how to hustle, you know, well I

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Speaker 2: think had a sense of out a hustle. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: we were hustling. It was fun. But what I what

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Speaker 2: I realized was I didn't love operations. I wasn't great

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Speaker 2: at operations. What I was drawn to was the development

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Speaker 2: work that Richard and Sally and then their kids were doing.

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Speaker 2: And I would spend as much time as I could

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Speaker 2: learning from Richard everything he knew. He and his wife

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Speaker 2: Sally are brilliant entrepreneurs. He had developed several hotels in Hobart.

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Speaker 2: He grew up on a farm. He left his farm

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Speaker 2: to drive a truck, ended up buying the truck, then

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Speaker 2: the fleet from his boss cashed out, went into the

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Speaker 2: hotel business. He knew his guests, he knew what was

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Speaker 2: important what was not important. So then when he risked,

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Speaker 2: literally risked his farm. Actually I cut out a piece.

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Speaker 2: So he wanted his kids to grow up on a farm.

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Speaker 2: He sold most of his hotel business, bought sixteen thousand

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Speaker 2: acres of mostly undeveloped land that he developed into a farm.

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Speaker 2: Almost lost it all when the world price of sheep crashed,

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Speaker 2: had built it back up when Greg Ramsey came along

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Speaker 2: and tried to convince him to build a golf course,

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Speaker 2: which he ultimately did. I forget where I was going

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Speaker 2: with that. But he really knew development, he knew his customers.

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Speaker 2: He had never played golf in his life. He didn't

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Speaker 2: really know anything about He didn't know anything about golf

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Speaker 2: course architecture and very little about golf. But my dad

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Speaker 2: assured him that he would help with you know, work

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Speaker 2: with the architect and that everything. Richard, we had stayed

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Speaker 2: at his hotels. Everything that he was doing in Hobart

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Speaker 2: would be directly applicable to Barnbougle, and they were the

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Speaker 2: same guests. There are business travelers from Melbourne and Sydney,

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Speaker 2: and Richard totally gets it. So it was a perfect

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Speaker 2: translation and he hit the ground running.

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Speaker 1: I imagine as a developer now, like you look at

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Speaker 1: I listened other sports podcasts, I read other stuff online,

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Speaker 1: and I see stuff in other publications. I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, I could tweak that and it would be

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Speaker 1: a pretty cool way to do something. And do you

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Speaker 1: feel the same way when you go anywhere, whether it's

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Speaker 1: even like a coffee shop or a restaurant or a hotel,

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Speaker 1: you can kind of kind of pick and choose the

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Speaker 1: little things that you like from places adapt them to yours.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what makes it so fun. Look going back

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Speaker 2: to as far back as I could remember, let's say

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Speaker 2: six years old, you know, a huge part of the

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Speaker 2: relationship I've had with my dad has been just observing

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Speaker 2: the businesses around us, right and asking a million questions.

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Speaker 2: So you get into a taxi and my dad would

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Speaker 2: just start asking questions to the taxi driver and afterwards

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Speaker 2: we talk about what do we like about that particular

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Speaker 2: taxi and McDonald's. What are they doing well at this

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Speaker 2: location and poorly at that location. So our relationship has

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Speaker 2: from the start been based off of exactly what you

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Speaker 2: just asked about, right, So so it's a little and

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Speaker 2: he would test us, you know, we walk out of

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Speaker 2: a restaurant, you know, what would you change? Well? What

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Speaker 2: did they do really well? So that's that's just sort

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Speaker 2: of intuitive, and you know, it's it might be a

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Speaker 2: curse to the people around me, because it's like you

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Speaker 2: can't shut that off. Right, Everything you see is something

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Speaker 2: to learn from, either good or bad. But but what

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Speaker 2: makes working in the golf industry so fun is you're

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Speaker 2: just always you know, learning, and it's a it's a

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Speaker 2: good excuse to go see what the best do right.

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Speaker 2: And every time if I'm lucky enough to go on

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Speaker 2: a vacation, either you know, with my wife or on

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Speaker 2: a buddy's trip, you know, I'm leaving you know, the

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Speaker 2: trip with one hundred notes and here's what they did really,

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Speaker 2: really well. Here's something that you know, as a customer,

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Speaker 2: I didn't like, and I wonder if we're doing something similar,

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Speaker 2: you know, let's look into that and try to improve it.

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Speaker 2: So it's it's yeah, it makes life really fun because

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Speaker 2: every day, you know, we're learning, you know, different different

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Speaker 2: things and taken awayfully best practices.

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Speaker 1: So you so you're with Richard and working hustling at

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Speaker 1: bar and boogle for a year. Yeah, yeah, what did

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Speaker 1: you do after that?

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Speaker 2: So you know, I guess my takeaway was I wanted

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Speaker 2: to be a Richard Sailor, wanted to develop, and I

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Speaker 2: realized I really wanted to develop golf courses. I talked

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Speaker 2: to my dad about it. He was a golf course

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Speaker 2: developer you know by then, and his advice was, go

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Speaker 2: out and learn the technical skills to develop right, and

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Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be a golf there'll be applicable

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Speaker 2: to golf. If you come work for me, you know,

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Speaker 2: you'll never really have the confidence to know if you

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Speaker 2: deserve to be on the team or not. You'll always

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Speaker 2: be my Kaiser's son. So go out and figure out

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Speaker 2: what you like developing and gain some confidence and success,

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Speaker 2: and then over time, if there's a good opportunity for

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Speaker 2: us to work together, then we'll do it. But but

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Speaker 2: if not, you'll be you know, happy. He knew I

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Speaker 2: loved building. I love creating and imagining.

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Speaker 1: Well in that carpenter you know, building stuff. Yeah, like

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's neat.

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Speaker 2: It was really neat and good growing up building forts

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Speaker 2: at the Dunes Club before as a golf course. Just

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Speaker 2: always building forts, always building trails with my dad, always

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Speaker 2: planting trees with my dad. So I went back to

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Speaker 2: Chicago interviewed. You know, it's a great time to be

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Speaker 2: working for a developer. I returned in two thousand and

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Speaker 2: four and got to know some great companies, got a

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Speaker 2: lot of great advice from people, and I could talk

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Speaker 2: for hours about you know, some of that advice, but

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Speaker 2: really got lucky. I was lucky in the sense that

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Speaker 2: I was introduced to Dan Lucas and Mike Dreu, who

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Speaker 2: are the partners and founders of Structured Development. And I

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Speaker 2: give myself credit in taking that job. It was the

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Speaker 2: salary was the lowest offer I received, but it was

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Speaker 2: so clear that these are guys I wanted to learn from.

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Speaker 2: They were so smart, and they worked so hard, and

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Speaker 2: they're doing really cool projects right some other jobs that

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Speaker 2: I just I saw a ceiling, not just salary, but

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Speaker 2: in terms of what I could learn and it was

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Speaker 2: clear that their culture, you know, there was no ceiling.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's there's nothing below you and there's nothing

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Speaker 2: above you. So you know, I would say outside of

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Speaker 2: my dad, Richard Saler was my first mentor that I

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Speaker 2: you know, I think about lessons from him, you know,

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Speaker 2: all the time. And and Dan Lucas and Mike Drew

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Speaker 2: was really lucky. It took a while to get their attention,

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Speaker 2: even though it was a small company. I had no

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Speaker 2: idea what I was doing when they hired me, and

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Speaker 2: wasn't worth the small salary they were paying me, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean, But eventually got their attention and just had

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Speaker 2: a blast, you know, working working for them.

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Speaker 1: I think it's always like when you switch careers, you

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Speaker 1: I think it's so funny how you just become like expert,

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Speaker 1: an expert in these weird things like you'd never envision

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Speaker 1: when you're growing up or you're in college, or like,

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Speaker 1: you know, I took a job in trucking like all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, I know, like freight prices from Chicago

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Speaker 1: to Atlanta, and it's like, what we Why do I have

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Speaker 1: this information that's going to forever be stored in my mind? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it's like you just you go into these things.

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Speaker 1: You take a job and you know nothing, and your

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Speaker 1: job essentially is like you learn it on the fly.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, a lot in a lot of places, especially

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Speaker 1: with what you're describing. It's almost more like a startup

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Speaker 1: culture at that development shop, because there was it was

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Speaker 1: very flat and you could see where you could go up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and every project was a startup. So we

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Speaker 2: would do these big mixed use projects in Chicago and

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Speaker 2: everyone was a new startup. You have to, you know,

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Speaker 2: you have to be just like in the golf business,

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Speaker 2: you can't just be successful and hang up your hat, right,

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Speaker 2: you have to earn it all over again with each

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Speaker 2: resort and within it resort. You have to do it

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Speaker 2: day in and day out, and you're in and year out.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I've always admired people who, uh, I don't

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Speaker 2: know if they get bored or just wanted a new challenge,

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Speaker 2: but totally change careers and just start from scratch. And

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Speaker 2: some people just do it every every fifteen or twenty years,

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Speaker 2: even when they're you know, they've achieved great success. And

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Speaker 2: my dad's one of those people. Right. He was a

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Speaker 2: greeting card publisher and then and then the next day

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Speaker 2: he was a golf course developer. You know, that's crazy,

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Speaker 2: and people, you know, might think that he didn't know

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Speaker 2: anything about I mean, he wasn't a developer, but he

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Speaker 2: was a curious person and he'd observed retail golfers and restaurants,

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Speaker 2: and you know it gets a lot of credit for golf,

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Speaker 2: but maybe not enough for the hospitality side, on the

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Speaker 2: service side, which is you know, he really.

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Speaker 1: That's a big good job, a big part of resource

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Speaker 1: almost probably a bigger part of than the golf courses.

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Speaker 2: It's all important. We got to nail it at all,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's all got to be it's all going

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Speaker 2: to be good.

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Speaker 1: So you're doing these mixed use properties. What would you say,

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Speaker 1: did are there any light bulb moments where you're like,

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Speaker 1: oh wow, this this if we do this in golf

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Speaker 1: it would be or what was the biggest basis that

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Speaker 1: you learned from that experience?

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Speaker 2: I just learned the confidence that you just figured out.

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Speaker 2: You have no idea what you're doing, but you're you're

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Speaker 2: charged with accomplishing something. You just figured it out, and

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Speaker 2: a lot of people don't have that confidence, and you

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Speaker 2: just have to be relentless and grind and and figured out.

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Speaker 2: I aftually had a lot of support at that that company,

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Speaker 2: and I wasn't figuring out you know, the big brilliant

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Speaker 2: ideas that the partners were, but you know, starting with

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Speaker 2: the smallest projects and tasks I was given, going all

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Speaker 2: the way up to the top. It was just the

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Speaker 2: confidence of you know, I was in my early twenties,

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Speaker 2: mid twenties, late twenties managing a dynamic team right of engineers, lawyers,

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Speaker 2: you know, brokers, finance, you know people in finance. You

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Speaker 2: know you have clients, most of mine, we're medical office

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Speaker 2: spaces that you're working for. You know, it's a dynamic

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Speaker 2: team and managing them toward an outcome in our case

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Speaker 2: building or my case within the company, you know, delivering

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Speaker 2: these medical office suites and then retail, and we did

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Speaker 2: some I did some industrial and some school. So that

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Speaker 2: was what I learned, was the confidence that you could

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Speaker 2: just figure it all out. You know, with your analogy

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Speaker 2: with trucking, you know, I think you have the confidence

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Speaker 2: that you might not know anything about trucking, but you

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Speaker 2: could just figure it out, just ask a million questions

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Speaker 2: and bug people with questions. You just keep asking the

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Speaker 2: right questions and you'll get there. So the AHA moment

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Speaker 2: was when I finally had the confidence to say, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I think I could do this on a smaller scale

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Speaker 2: on my own. And then and then I left to

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Speaker 2: do that, to do really small developments, but their mind

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Speaker 2: and right, and it was it was the confidence to

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Speaker 2: do that and then being successful doing that that gave confidence.

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Speaker 2: So then when I ultimately went to work with my dad,

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Speaker 2: starting out with band in Muni, I had some confidence

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Speaker 2: that I didn't know everything about golf course development, but

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Speaker 2: I think I could figure out. And I was surrounded

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Speaker 2: by so many brilliant people. If I could ask the

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Speaker 2: right questions, I think I could lead them toward, you know,

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Speaker 2: a vision that might be successful.

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Speaker 1: Talk about Bandon Muni. That project.

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Speaker 2: It's heartbreaking because it never got off the ground for

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Speaker 2: political reasons. But let's just you know, focusing on the

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Speaker 2: concept and then the architecture. My dad wanted to build.

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Speaker 2: It was really he wanted to give back to the

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Speaker 2: local community. So the idea was, you know, if Andy

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Speaker 2: Johnson came from Chicago, you'd pay you know, full retail,

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Speaker 2: but locals would pay twenty dollars. And if you took

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Speaker 2: a junior Cady'd pay ten, so would be a local

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Speaker 2: municipal golf course. There's twenty seven holes. You know, locals

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Speaker 2: with tee off on one and resort guests with tee

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Speaker 2: off at ten. Twenty seven holes, you could double the

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Speaker 2: number of rounds on. The land was phenomenal. It was

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Speaker 2: really dooony. You know, there are dunes at Bandon, but

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Speaker 2: then there's you know, there's different there's different landforms throughout Bandon.

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Speaker 2: You know the trails you go into the woods and

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Speaker 2: out on you know sixteenth of Bandon, it's this really

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Speaker 2: hard packed sand. Uh. This was pure sand dunes, right,

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Speaker 2: pure link sand dunes.

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Speaker 1: So more more along the lines of like a Scotland sands.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yes, yes, Scottish or maybe even more Irish.

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Speaker 2: Big yeah, I mean it was that you know, most

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Speaker 2: dunes have this like push up you know this front.

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Speaker 2: Bandon has front. You know, once you go over that ridge,

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Speaker 2: then it's flat forest. And when you look around the

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Speaker 2: world at dunes, it's you know, the sands getting pushed

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Speaker 2: onto the beach then blown from the beach onto you

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Speaker 2: know generally within let's say a mile of the beach,

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Speaker 2: you know, a high high ridge. So this This had

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Speaker 2: this high dune ridge after which it dropped off. It

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Speaker 2: was pretty flat, but it was about a mile from

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Speaker 2: the ocean. So beautiful, pure sand site, gorgeous dunes. You know.

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Speaker 2: Gil Hans was hired to be the architect.

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Speaker 1: And what year was it, Well, I don't.

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Speaker 2: Remember, twenty ten eleven, I mean then ten eleven. I

386
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Speaker 2: went from that to San Valley, so Sand Valley so

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Speaker 2: started twenty thirteen, so let's say ten eleven twelve, and

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Speaker 2: I was doing I was also working on real estate

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Speaker 2: that we have an organ outside of the resort, you know,

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Speaker 2: whether it's residential or we've logging properties or differ different property.

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Speaker 2: But Gill's routing was just fabulous. It was it was

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Speaker 2: twenty seven holes that all worked together. Every hole was different.

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Speaker 2: It was outstanding. It was one of the best routings

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Speaker 2: on some of the best piece of ground I've ever seen.

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Speaker 2: And unfortunately it was never built. There was an issue

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Speaker 2: with the Bureau of Land Management that kept us from

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Speaker 2: being able to trade for the land. So it wasn't built.

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Speaker 2: And that happens a lot for in the industry and

399
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Speaker 2: for us. You know, if the public sees one resort,

400
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Speaker 2: of course that gets developed. There are many that don't

401
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Speaker 2: that fizzle out, and it's just part of the heartbreak

402
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Speaker 2: of working in the business. You know, we're lucky to

403
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Speaker 2: see all these great sites, but not every great site

404
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 2: gets built down cool links. You know, there's the unfortunate

405
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Speaker 2: news last week that that wasn't approved, and that's just

406
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Speaker 2: that's part of it's part of the business, and it's

407
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Speaker 2: it's heartbreaking, but you move on and you know that

408
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Speaker 2: there will be other great sites and other great properties

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Speaker 2: and on behold, we got a call from Craig Altam

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Speaker 2: and then we moved on to Sand Valley.

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Speaker 1: Hey, it's got to be hard when you invest so

412
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Speaker 1: much time into something and it has such a good,

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Speaker 1: you know mission behind it where you're giving back to

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Speaker 1: the community. It's going to be affordable golf for locals.

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Speaker 1: And then you know, it was the local government essentially

416
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Speaker 1: was the one that kind of put it a hall

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Speaker 1: to it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess I blame the federal government

419
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Speaker 2: for it, but you know, the local governments for the

420
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Speaker 2: most part, very very supportive in abandon of our developments.

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Speaker 2: And there are local groups and there's we're talking about

422
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Speaker 2: two three people who aren't supportive, right and could create

423
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Speaker 2: a lot of you know, resistance, But the local government

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Speaker 2: has been amazingly supportive of of Bandon. That's in large

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Speaker 2: part because of the relationship that that Howard McKee built

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Speaker 2: with the locals. He spent eight years working on the development,

427
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Speaker 2: you know, getting banded off the ground. He was there

428
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Speaker 2: in person, people knew him. That was one of the

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Speaker 2: big biggest lessons I took away from Bandon was what

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Speaker 2: Howard McKee did. So when we started San Valley, I

431
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 2: moved there right so that you know, it wasn't these

432
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 2: developers from Chicago or they like Trump or you know,

433
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 2: who are these guys if because these rumors spread in

434
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 2: these small towns. So if anybody said, oh, they're going

435
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 2: to do such and shuts, somebody else would say, no,

436
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 2: they're not. Go ask Michael. He's over there in Aisle

437
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 2: six buying Brad. Go talk to him, right, you're there

438
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 2: and accessible. That's what Howard did. I think that's why

439
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: Bannon was successful. I tried to emulate that at San

440
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 2: Valley by embedding myself in the community. I was at

441
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 2: the farmer's market every Friday. You know, knew knew everybody

442
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 2: in the community, so that you know, you fill the

443
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 2: void that rumors would otherwise fill.

444
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: I imagine that also helps you create unique culture and

445
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 1: almost develop. We were talking before we started recording about

446
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: sense of place, is that it gives you, It weaves

447
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 1: you deeper into the fabric of where you're building a resort.

448
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't play off the sense of place if

449
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 2: you don't know the place, you know, just like an

450
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 2: architect can't play off of you know, can't riff off

451
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 2: of micro movements or micro movements if they don't know

452
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 2: those movements. You know, they have to put the time

453
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 2: in the dirt, walking the ground and knowing it intimately

454
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 2: so that they could be inspired by it and use

455
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 2: what's there, but also riff off of what's there, you know.

456
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 2: So yeah, I would hope. So, I mean, just this

457
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: is all example of it. And I don't know why

458
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 2: this popped in, but local Farmers Market got to know

459
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 2: this great music co op right there are. I remember

460
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,679
Speaker 2: the day there's two two women harmonizing what was on

461
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,360
Speaker 2: the base the other ukulele. It was just awesome bluegrass, right.

462
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: So we got to know them, learned about their co

463
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 2: op and said we want you to be a part

464
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 2: of sand Valley. From the start, we've lived music at

465
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 2: Sand Valley five days a week and it's it's their

466
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 2: co op and they have a rotating group of musicians

467
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 2: passing through the Midwest. We have, you know, fiddlers from

468
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 2: all over the world and bluegrass artists and so again

469
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 2: we wouldn't have probably met them have we not been there, been.

470
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 1: There, and then it becomes part of your place because

471
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: your place is here. Yeah, in terms of when with

472
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 1: band and Muni what it doesn't get off the ground,

473
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: But what are some things that you took away from

474
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: that project that you've you've used since then at Sand Valley.

475
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 2: It's a good question. I guess for me, it was

476
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 2: the first time I spent any you know, real time

477
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 2: with the architects. So so walking with my dad and

478
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 2: with Jim Wagner and Gil Hands and getting a better

479
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 2: sense of what that relationship is and how that waltz works,

480
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 2: I guess was the takeaway so that, you know, then

481
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 2: when we started Sanballey, it had some experience working with

482
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 2: an architect even though we weren't we weren't building, and

483
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 2: it wasn't a tremendous amount of time, but it was

484
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 2: enough to start to start to you know, understand that

485
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 2: I'm struggling with the timing. But I guess also did

486
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 2: that at Cabot, joined my dad on his trips to

487
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 2: Cabot when you when he and Ben Collen were developing

488
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 2: links and then cliffs. So that was probably the most

489
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 2: important uh takeaway. And then I mean I had a blast.

490
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time getting to know the land,

491
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 2: so I guess I learned that I really enjoy that.

492
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 2: I knew that was important not just for the architect,

493
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 2: but I think for the developer to know the ground intimately.

494
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 2: So that was maybe another takeaway that when we started

495
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 2: Siam Valley, I spent at least six months just walking

496
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 2: the ground so I knew it so we could make

497
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 2: decisions on you know, where should the architect start, what

498
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 2: ground did I like the most, or what pieces of

499
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 2: ground might compliment you know one another as two courses

500
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 2: and then three, so just just seeing just seeing how

501
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 2: it takes time. There's no other way to get to

502
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 2: know a piece of ground but time. Just walk it,

503
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 2: you know, know all the deer trails, you know, just

504
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 2: just know everything about it.

505
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: What uh what as most of the listeners probably won't

506
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: what give us an inside look kind of when you're

507
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: walking one of the courses or proposed courses or a

508
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 1: routing with an architect, or you're mid constructor what are

509
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: those conversations like?

510
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 2: Just what are conversations with the architect?

511
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, talk about just like the whole working with in

512
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 1: these walks where you walk and you're talking with them,

513
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: what what are you guys talking about a.

514
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 2: Lot of different things depending on on the time. I

515
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 2: guess my mind. When we started walking with Bill, there

516
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 2: couldn't see ten feet in front of you because there

517
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 2: are these pines, right, there's an agricultural so most of

518
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 2: our conversation was where the hell are we? Where we going? Right?

519
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 2: But joking aside, starting let me, let's just use dope

520
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 2: because that's where we are today, right, So that's freshest

521
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 2: in my mind. The conversation starts with, you know, the theme,

522
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 2: what are we going to build? What's the what's the concept,

523
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 2: what's the big idea? And maybe that's where our contribution

524
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 2: is is most important. Sometimes we generate that idea, sometimes

525
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 2: the architect does, and sometimes it comes out of a conversation.

526
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 2: I think in the case of Daks course, it was

527
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 2: his idea but it came out of a conversation Christopher

528
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 2: and I are, you know, have a confidence that we

529
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 2: could push the bound continue to push the boundaries in

530
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 2: terms of unconventional routings. We found our golfers love playing

531
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 2: eighteen holes and then a par three, right. You know,

532
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: we were talking recently about one of the most inspiring

533
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 2: golf courses to you. For me, it's Banned Preserve because

534
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 2: it totally blasted through the mold of what golfers will

535
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 2: travel to play. And I'm saying, they go to band

536
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 2: and play the Preserve, but they go to Bandon and

537
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 2: they play it, and they pay one hundred dollars to

538
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 2: play it. I mean, that's that's that's big Cabot Cliffs,

539
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 2: six par threes, six par four, six par fives, that's

540
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 2: you know, pretty mold breaking. And then Pacific Dudes. The

541
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: back nine four part three's three par five is only

542
00:29:54,960 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 2: two par fours, the sixteenth, it's one of the best

543
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: holes on the resort. That's a short part four, and

544
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 2: then the thirteenth, which is one of the most epicals

545
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 2: on the property. That's an unusual squarecard for the best.

546
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: An unusual balance.

547
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 2: It's an unusual balance, but they're the best holes and

548
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,479
Speaker 2: it's the best balance for that piece of ground, you know.

549
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 2: And what my dad let Tom do there was just

550
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 2: go find the greatest holes. I don't know if most

551
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: developers would have done that, and I don't know if

552
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: most architects would have would have been comfortable doing that,

553
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 2: you know, would they be ridly cool? But Thomas just

554
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 2: he's just committed to the best golf holls. So, you know,

555
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 2: Christopher and I want to, you know, continue to explore

556
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 2: the boundaries of what our guests will like this, I guess,

557
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 2: going backwards in time, the Sandbox started as what I

558
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 2: wanted to be a putting course. What I saw at

559
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: the preserve was a lot of people talked about the

560
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 2: last hole, which the caddies encouraged them to play with

561
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 2: a putter. And I just see how much fun people

562
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 2: have playing a full length Part three with only a putter.

563
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: It's a downhill hole and you could just bun it down,

564
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 2: you know, if you had a decent shot at somewhere

565
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 2: on the green, and people love that. So I asked

566
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 2: Jimmy Craig to consider routing. I called it a Part

567
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 2: two course at the time, but in reality, you know,

568
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 2: how many of us can get down in two from

569
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 2: eighty yards. But of course that you would only play

570
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 2: with your putter. So he started doing that. But then

571
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 2: he said, you know, he'd say, Mike, come over here,

572
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 2: look look at this tea. You know, don't you want

573
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 2: to hit this shot too? And I'd say, yeah, I do.

574
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 2: I really want to hit that shot, you know, but

575
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 2: that's more of a wedge and there's a bit of

576
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 2: a force carry. So he started with that concept, but

577
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:39,479
Speaker 2: he took the conversation uh much further right and broaden

578
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 2: it and made it more interesting. Frankly, it made it

579
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 2: a lot more interesting, but we still have, you know,

580
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 2: the t's that you could play with a putter. It

581
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: started there and the conversation evolved into what it is today,

582
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 2: which is a mashy course right holes between sixty and

583
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 2: one hundred and forty yards, which is different than you know,

584
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 2: you're not hitting you know, five irons into those greens. So,

585
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 2: with seeing how much fun people have at the preserve

586
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 2: and are having at the sandbox, Chris and I started thinking,

587
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 2: what if the next course we build at Sam Valley

588
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 2: wasn't an eighteen hole full lengths course. What if it

589
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: was a precision course. Tom Doak had done, of course,

590
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 2: next to the preserve, a routing which I hope we

591
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 2: build one day of drivable par fours and par three's.

592
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: I thought, you know, could we do that for the

593
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: next course here? Could that be? Like? Would people take

594
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: that seriously and play it? Would you wake up in

595
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 2: the morning and go out and play a precision course,

596
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 2: you know, just part three short part fours. So I

597
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 2: called Tom and said, you know, this isn't a job offer,

598
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: but I'm curious if that were your one crack at

599
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 2: Sam Valley, if your commission was to build that type

600
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 2: of course, would you do it? And he said, absolutely,

601
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 2: that's fun, that's different. I love it. And another reason

602
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 2: why we got there was this piece of ground that

603
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: Sedge Valley sits on. Has been near and dear to

604
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 2: my heart since since the start, and we haven't developed

605
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: it yet, but it's just my opinion, perfect golf ground.

606
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: But because the first two courses it's a little tight

607
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 2: in places, and a couple other brilliant architects have done

608
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 2: more traditional routings on it and it just didn't quite

609
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 2: work right. It didn't fit. There are a lot of

610
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 2: great holes, but some holes it got a little awkward.

611
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: How do you evaluate when you when you get a

612
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: couple of routings on one ground? Is it just do

613
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: you just keep walking it?

614
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: We walk them, you know, when my dad does it.

615
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 2: And something that we've taken on is rating holes one

616
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 2: to ten Doak scale right. That's not a great way

617
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: to well, it is a great way, but it's one

618
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: of several inputs. Definitely bring a group right. And that's

619
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 2: something I've learned from my dad. It's not just our perspective.

620
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 2: We're asking the retail golfer, what do you think about

621
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 2: this hole? What do you think about this routing? What

622
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 2: does it say to you? What do you love about it?

623
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 2: What don't you love about it? So, you know, and

624
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 2: then trusting our own gut and you know reading you

625
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 2: know the architects, asking the architects what they think about

626
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 2: their own routing, what they don't like. But so the

627
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 2: other routings were they had so many high points because

628
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 2: the ground was so good and they're great architects, but

629
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 2: it was it was too much golf and too small

630
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 2: a space. So I thought this precision course could work

631
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,399
Speaker 2: really well on it. So Tom said, absolutely, I'd love

632
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:32,240
Speaker 2: to look at it, but would you consider another model

633
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 2: that I've wanted to do for a long time? Right,

634
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 2: And then he talked about what you wrote about, which

635
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 2: is the current model what we're building of course, like

636
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 2: West Sussex or Rye or Swimy Forest that is, you know,

637
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 2: more more traditional, but you know, not not committed to

638
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 2: any length or par So he said, you mind if

639
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 2: I just spend some time out there and see if

640
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 2: that fits and propose that and it sounded really cool. Well,

641
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 2: you know, I played those courses. I haven't played Ride,

642
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 2: but I've played West Sussex and Swindley Forest some of

643
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 2: the others he mentioned, and I never once thought of

644
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 2: them as anything but great, fun, wonderful courses. If you

645
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 2: ask anybody plays Windy Forest what the par or length is,

646
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 2: they'll it doesn't stand out as being six thousand yards

647
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 2: of part sixty eight. It's just a great golf course.

648
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 2: That's the takeaway. And I hope that's the message with

649
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 2: Tom's golf course. So I was surprised to hear that

650
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 2: those those two courses in particular were not sixty eight

651
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 2: hundred yards par seventy two, because I just walked off saying, man,

652
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 2: that was fun. Right, that was really fun. But so

653
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 2: he explained that and it sounded really cool, and I

654
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,359
Speaker 2: talked to Chris about it, and he went out and

655
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 2: as he does you know often, you know, he could

656
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 2: all these architects, including Tom, spend a lot of time

657
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 2: on the ground, but you know, he's really good with

658
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 2: topo's and sort of I don't want to say he

659
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 2: mailed in a routing because he spent time walking out there.

660
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 2: But it was awesome from start. You know, it's not

661
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 2: going to require a ton of input from me here

662
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 2: because or you know, our family. It's a really strong

663
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 2: routing as is, so we're sold. So that was the conversation.

664
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,919
Speaker 2: It started as something that Chris and I thought would

665
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 2: be cool. He took it. I don't say the next

666
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 2: level because I would like to build that concept at

667
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 2: some point. But he found something that was a better

668
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 2: fit for this piece of ground. That is so cool.

669
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 2: So that's a very long winded way of saying where

670
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 2: the conversation starts. Then we walked there routing with them

671
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 2: in person. Right, we talk about what we like, what

672
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 2: we don't like. There's nothing but things to like so

673
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 2: far in his golf courses. In the first five holes

674
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 2: we've cleared are just spectacular. But we did we start

675
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 2: talking about themes. You know, he sees a lot of

676
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 2: exposed sand on the first two and he says, you know,

677
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 2: what do you think about it's in this beautiful? Said Savannah?

678
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 2: Could we just let that be? And you know, the

679
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 2: conversation is, yeah, it's beautiful. What can we do to

680
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 2: help that? Now? You know, we could burn it, seed

681
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 2: into it, you know, really lift up that surrounding prairie.

682
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 2: And Savannah we talk about greens that we like. I mean,

683
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 2: there's an email where it was sort of like, here

684
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 2: are the things that aren't really important to me, right

685
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:16,359
Speaker 2: because it's important to get on the same page at

686
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 2: the same point, on the same page early on. And

687
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 2: then he did the same, here's what's really important to me.

688
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 2: And then we compromised on certain things. You know, I

689
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 2: talked about just wanting really big greens, which I like

690
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 2: and I've learned from my dad. And he pointed out,

691
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 2: you know that certain holes, the fourth hole in particular,

692
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 2: a big green doesn't make sense because of its length,

693
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 2: but also because of this perfectly natural green that's sitting there.

694
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 2: It's phenomenal, Like, why change it? Make it bigger.

695
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: That's the one that plays right up right.

696
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's amazing how you know he found you know,

697
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 2: I both like prairie dunes and they have these great

698
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 2: greens that are benching, benched into hills, and I've always

699
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 2: wondered if those natural or do they you know, manufacture them.

700
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 2: And Tom's found these just perfect insights on four and five.

701
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 2: They're just benched into the hill. So again, that was

702
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 2: a quick conversation because he was totally convincing, like, yeah,

703
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 2: why would we wh would we make that bigger? It's

704
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 2: perfect as is. We were talking about bunkers. You know,

705
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 2: I've been and other people in the industry but think

706
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 2: a lot about bunkering. There's been a lot of flashy

707
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: bunkers out there. I've always been drawn to like a

708
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 2: lot of Scottish and Irish courses that have sort of

709
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 2: economy of bunkering. They do so much with so little.

710
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 2: There's fewer bunkers, and the bunkers are smaller, but they're

711
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 2: impactful and.

712
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: The contours around them gather them in. It may make

713
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: them play way bigger than they are. But from a

714
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 1: maintenance standpoint.

715
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, maintenance is huge. Yeah, and st Andrews is a

716
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 2: great example of how they just you know, they collect.

717
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 2: But then I also love I have a good sandgame

718
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 2: and allowsy golfer. But I'm good at the sand, but

719
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 2: I don't love that part of the game. I love

720
00:38:54,800 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 2: bumping around on ground, short grass with interesting contours, you know.

721
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 2: That's why I love. There's great bunkering in the sand

722
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 2: belt in Melbourne. But there's also great short grass, you know,

723
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,240
Speaker 2: around the green. So I love that type of shot

724
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 2: and not great at it. But I love being creative

725
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 2: and trying because it shots.

726
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: It's different, it's.

727
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 2: Fun, and I've seen you do it. You're you're you

728
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:16,760
Speaker 2: are great.

729
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: At them, but getting worse.

730
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 2: Well, uh still far better than I am. So I

731
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 2: think he's been thinking that, as many people have. So

732
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 2: we started talking about, you know, bunkers, having fewer of them,

733
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 2: you know. He and Brian Schneider talked about bunkers that

734
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 2: sit down on the ground, sit below level as opposed

735
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,720
Speaker 2: to flashing up you know, and using some more of those.

736
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,399
Speaker 2: An example you know, I was I've learned I think

737
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 2: from my dad to like some model, you know. So

738
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 2: we know we're speaking speaking the same language. And one

739
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 2: of the ones that they presented was you know, Walton Heath,

740
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 2: which has I think more bunkers than we would have,

741
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 2: but so many of those either sit down below the

742
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 2: surface or they would just go and carve out a

743
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 2: hole and then put the earth behind the bunker to

744
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 2: flash up a little lip, you know, and it's sort

745
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 2: of clear that it's man made. It's a little mound,

746
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 2: but it's very elegant. And you see those, you know,

747
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 2: when they started. You see those all over London and

748
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 2: in places in some of the older courses in the

749
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 2: US as well. So now we're talking themes, right we had.

750
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 2: We know that it's going to have five par threes,

751
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 2: a number of short to meet you know, drivable to

752
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 2: short par four's. We know what the out of play

753
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 2: area looks like. We've talked bunkering. Playability is a big conversation,

754
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 2: you know, and Tom and Brian have always said, look,

755
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 2: we like playability too. We don't want our guests. But

756
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: that's something I keep repeating and they know it is,

757
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 2: you know, but this part of my job is to

758
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 2: defend the retail golfer, right, just make sure that you

759
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 2: know everybody's you know, having a lot of fun out there.

760
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 2: I'm not telling them anything they don't know. They're committed to, Oh,

761
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 2: they're committed to playability as well. And then green sites.

762
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 2: You know, the most recent conversation, Brian Tom and I

763
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 2: were out a few weeks ago walking and I was

764
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 2: really curious to hear what they were thinking for each

765
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 2: of their green sites, and fingers crossed. You know, I'm

766
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 2: hoping the answer is very little, because sometimes, you know,

767
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 2: they'll use what's there and sometimes they'll riff off of

768
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 2: that and build things up. But these first holes that

769
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 2: were cleared, I mean, it's like to see them right now,

770
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 2: and that was you know, they'll they'll polish them probably

771
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,919
Speaker 2: with the sampro and might do a little dose are work.

772
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,839
Speaker 2: But it was really great to hear that they're going

773
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,959
Speaker 2: to do very little to the greens. The first five

774
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 2: are like five of the most natural and best green

775
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 2: sites on the property. They're They're amazing, and I'm just

776
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 2: praying that as we clear trees we find that that's

777
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 2: the case. Across the routing. They're spectacular green sites and

778
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 2: they're all so different. So again, in a short conversation,

779
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 2: you know, what they're planning on doing is something that

780
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 2: I'm really excited about a big I don't want to

781
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 2: say contentious, but where we had a conflict of opinion

782
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 2: in our conversations as a number of teen grounds. You know,

783
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 2: we have six sets of tees and we want, you know,

784
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 2: everybody to be able to, you know, in some sense

785
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 2: play the hole in the same way. And Tom feels

786
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 2: that with fewer teas with great design, that people who

787
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 2: with different swing speeds and abilities can have fun playing

788
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 2: all from the same tee. And I agree with him

789
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 2: one hundred percent. Right, if you have a four hundred

790
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 2: and eighty yard hole and you have an eighty mile

791
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: an hour seventy five mile hour swing speed, if the

792
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 2: architecture is interesting, you have a lot of fun playing it.

793
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 2: But I also know so I agree with that. I

794
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 2: also know that our average guest if they have to

795
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 2: take if they're forced to play three shots to a

796
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,399
Speaker 2: part four, they don't. They don't love that. Right.

797
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: Do you ever think about just taking part off? Then?

798
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:08,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, we talked about that. We talked about that that day.

799
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 2: I mean, it was a really fun conversation. And I

800
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 2: love debating things with Tom and Brian because they're just

801
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 2: so logical. It's not emotional, it's not personal, you know,

802
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 2: it's just let's have a conversation and look at it

803
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 2: from different perspectives, and at the end of the day

804
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 2: we came to a solution. I think everybody's happy with

805
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 2: that solution. But so that's the type of conversation you

806
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 2: know you have or we're gonna have six t's, a're

807
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 2: gonna have one tea. And so the next conversations will

808
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 2: be is a piece of ground ready for irrigation? Those

809
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 2: are generally, you know, not long conversations. And then the

810
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,399
Speaker 2: ultimate conversation that we're involved in, right, I mean Tom

811
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 2: will have many, many, many conversations with his team, and

812
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 2: we don't pretend to be architects, right, that's not our job.

813
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 2: But we will have conversations on if a green is

814
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 2: ready for seating and in the and a fairways are

815
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 2: ready for seating. So fairways are they wide enough? Right?

816
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,280
Speaker 2: We go for really wide fairways. I think it's such value.

817
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 2: You'll have narrower fairways than the first two courses, but

818
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 2: you'll still have maintained rough.

819
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 1: Yes, you'll have wide corridors with less shortcrafts.

820
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 2: And I only care about corridors. Frankly, most of us

821
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 2: who are lousy, sort of like that Whisby rough. It's

822
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 2: fluffed up a little bit, you know, whereas you don't

823
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: because you might get a flyer.

824
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 1: Or really unpredictable shitty angle.

825
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 2: It's unpredictable, you know. I love I love very good

826
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 2: golfers talk about like the angst of a flyer live

827
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 2: because I just love bass that fly, right, I love it.

828
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 2: You know, greens, I'm not referring to town, but conversations

829
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 2: we might have with an architecture or the greens big

830
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 2: enough where they too severe, right, and and we tend

831
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 2: to tone our greens down relative to certain trends in

832
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 2: the industry with you know, are more. I use the

833
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 2: term wild, and I think an architect would you you know,

834
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 2: use a different term, would be interesting or but I

835
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 2: think rather the same page. They also know they know

836
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 2: what we like. I mean they they they I think,

837
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 2: try to please their own creativity and sensibilities. But they

838
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 2: also you know, want a client to be happy, right,

839
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 2: so there. You know, if a client says I want

840
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 2: you to build a championship golf course, I'm not going

841
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 2: to say no. He's going to say, okay, how can

842
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 2: I build a championship golf course that tests the greatest

843
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 2: players in the world, but it's also fun for you know,

844
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 2: the daily golfer, and you've talked to Tom about the

845
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 2: course he's building in Texas doing that. Likewise, if if

846
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 2: a client, if a client, if we say we want

847
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 2: a course to be really playable for people of all handicaps,

848
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 2: he's not gonna They're not gonna fight that. They're gonna say, Okay,

849
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 2: that's that's the vision. We're gonna do that, but we're

850
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:54,720
Speaker 2: gonna figure out how to make a challenging for andy

851
00:45:54,760 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 2: as well. Right. So, I think as long as everybody

852
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 2: knows their role, I think what could be a problem

853
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 2: is if an owner sort of thinks that they're an architect.

854
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 2: And one thing you learn really quickly when working with

855
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,800
Speaker 2: these geniuses is that it might be an armchair architect,

856
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:19,359
Speaker 2: but you know, these guys are smarter, more knowledgeable, they

857
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 2: think harder about it, They've been thinking harder about it

858
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 2: for longer, and they've been perfecting their craft for decades,

859
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 2: and they surround themselves with team members who are all

860
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 2: qualified architects in their own right. So I think it's

861
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 2: important for an owner to know his place and know

862
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 2: what he contributes, you know, to defend the retail golfer

863
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 2: and to set sort of you know, either in partnership

864
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 2: or on their own, the sort of vision for what

865
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 2: the course is going to be like. But then to

866
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,760
Speaker 2: let architects be architects. I've never once heard my dad,

867
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 2: you know, talk about you know, bunker placement ever or

868
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 2: dissect the strategy of a golf hall. Right. He trusts

869
00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 2: you know, a band and you know David and Gym

870
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 2: and Bill and Ben Tom to do that, right.

871
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: It's a I feel like when you go to golf courses,

872
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 1: particularly you know, more so new ones, is you can

873
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: always see, you can you no matter what you get

874
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 1: the feel of the owner through the golf course. You know,

875
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 1: it's likely if the owner is a better player, the

876
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: golf course is going to be more challenging, it's going

877
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 1: to be a little bit more demanding. And you feel

878
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: that like you can see and and you know, and

879
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 1: then there's if you there. Golf courses are more forgiving,

880
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 1: they're they're a different things to mind. Something you said

881
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 1: earlier about you.

882
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 2: Call the Kaiser's lousy golfers, because we are we are

883
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 2: losy golfers. All three of us are lousy golfers.

884
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, something you said earlier about about Chris did you're

885
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 1: you want to continue to push the boundaries? Talk about

886
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: where that motive comes from.

887
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 2: Part of it is just creative, like whyt I do something

888
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 2: different and not do something that's already been done, Right.

889
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 2: I think that's a big part of it. But the

890
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 2: biggest reason for doing that is ensuring that our guests

891
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 2: have fun. Right, you want them to have fun. And

892
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 2: I think, look, when I say push the boundaries, we're

893
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 2: not necessarily doing anything that's innovative. Everything that we're doing

894
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,799
Speaker 2: in any way we may push a boundary has been

895
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 2: done before in the UK. Right, So these arrows in

896
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 2: the quiver that we pull from have been done before

897
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 2: and we've played them and they're wildly fun. So when

898
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 2: we push the brown boundaries, it's really going back into

899
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 2: the game's history and pulling forward some of the ideas

900
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 2: that may have been lost or at least lost on

901
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 2: the American golfers. So what I mean specifically by that

902
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 2: more part three courses. I mean I think the ratio

903
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 2: for us at a resort is three to two. I

904
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 2: think for every three golf courses we have, we should

905
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 2: have two part three golf courses. You know, sandbox is

906
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 2: way over subscribed for two golf courses. You can't get

907
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 2: on the sandbox where you need to build another one,

908
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 2: especially with Tom Doaks course, uh coming. I think a

909
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 2: precision precision course right, and by that I mean short

910
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 2: part fours and part three's. I think most golfers prefer

911
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 2: playing part threes and find and find the best. Part

912
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 2: three is to be the most fun holes and and

913
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 2: that might just be because they only have one opportunity

914
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 2: to screw it up right, so they get to hit

915
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 2: greens and then everybody. But but they're also you know, beautiful,

916
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 2: they're easier to frame.

917
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: I think it's something too there is that the part

918
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 1: three you're it's more of a community game there because

919
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 1: there's less time to get away from your playing partners.

920
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: It's your spend and that's just thing with the sandboxes.

921
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: You're always you're always within speaking distance of the people

922
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 1: you're playing with, and that it's a completely different experience

923
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 1: than golf is where when you hit your drives, everybody diverges.

924
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, my group's absolutely you know, I might go on

925
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,240
Speaker 2: a walk about you, but see me for ten minutes

926
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 2: until I get to the green six shots later. But

927
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 2: it's such a great point. I think that's why people

928
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 2: love the Part three that's one of the main reasons.

929
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 2: And I think you nail it why people love the

930
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 2: Part three courses because the banter never stops. There's never

931
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 2: a break in the conversation. So if you're out with

932
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 2: your buddies or your family, you know, it's at sandbox

933
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 2: we see you know, families mom, dad, you know their

934
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 2: kids playing golf or you know a lot of groups

935
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 2: playing eight sum's heckling the betting. You know, it never stops.

936
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 2: It's just pure fun the whole time. And that's it's

937
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 2: sort of the most fun part of golf, right being

938
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 2: being with people. It's a social game and it's as

939
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 2: wild as I am off the tee. Sometimes it's not

940
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,959
Speaker 2: so social. It's a very isolated game big two hundred

941
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 2: yards for the fairway.

942
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's I mean, that's why you go with

943
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 1: your friends to go golf, is to be with them.

944
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a course which I hope we get to

945
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 2: talk about sometime in the future, but that Chris and

946
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 2: I have hired Jim or being a to build. But

947
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 2: and it's what's different about that is we've we've you know,

948
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 2: just said we love par threes. We really love short

949
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 2: and medium length par fours, right, so it's okay, don't

950
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 2: worry about the par don't worry about the distance, and

951
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 2: don't feel like you need any meaty par fours in there, right,

952
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 2: And maybe that will keep it from being the perfect

953
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 2: golf course. But if I don't have to hit a

954
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 2: four or three iron into a green all day, I'm

955
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 2: okay with that, right, And you probably need to be

956
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 2: challenged with every club in your bag. I don't. I'll

957
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 2: carry a three or four iron, you know, I'm three wood,

958
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 2: five iron, seven eight pitching up and I don't really

959
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 2: want to want to hit that shot, you know, we're

960
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 2: You and I were talking recently. You mentioned how much

961
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,280
Speaker 2: you love the sixth hole Dunes, which is a short

962
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 2: Part four. If there was a golf course filled with

963
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 2: holes like that, to me, that and part three's some

964
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 2: fun Part fives, I'd be happy forever. Right, So I

965
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 2: think that's maybe unconventional, you know, urging an architect not

966
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 2: to have a hole longer than there will be holes

967
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 2: longer than three fifty, but to wait it with holes

968
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 2: like number six at Prairie Dunes, seventeen at stream Song Red,

969
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:30,839
Speaker 2: sixteen at Pacific Dunes, two at Pacific Dunes, And you know,

970
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 2: I could play those holes all day long, play them

971
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 2: differently every single time I play them, you know, driver

972
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 2: and then a five iron off the tee. And so

973
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 2: I think that's different courses that are designed for women.

974
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,400
Speaker 2: I mean, we're great with teaen lengths for people of

975
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 2: all swing speeds, but people with lower swim speeds, which

976
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 2: sometimes correlates with you know, women have a different apex

977
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:02,879
Speaker 2: and roll and just spur, and you know throughout Great

978
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 2: Britain you have golf courses built for people with lower

979
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 2: swings beets. I got hooked on the game. I got

980
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 2: the bug playing thirty six at Dornick with my dad

981
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,359
Speaker 2: and then going off and until it was dark, which

982
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 2: might be eleven o'clock at night, playing the street course

983
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:17,840
Speaker 2: over and over and over and over, play over one

984
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 2: hundred holes a day because that I could get there

985
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 2: in two right, it was tighter, and we don't have

986
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:26,399
Speaker 2: those in this country. So no wonder it's such a

987
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 2: male dominated sport. I think eventually we need to think

988
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:32,919
Speaker 2: about building not just teas, which is something I think

989
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,240
Speaker 2: innovative that my dad's done. But golf courses for women

990
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:37,280
Speaker 2: and younger players.

991
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 1: And with golf everything's driven towards how can we test

992
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 1: the male professional? But testing the male professional is almost

993
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:51,800
Speaker 1: like the opposite direction of testing the women professional. Yeah,

994
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 1: because they they're much more precise, you know, their dispersions

995
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: are like you're building fifty yards wide, like you know

996
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 1: that a great you know, accurate woman player, Like they

997
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,280
Speaker 1: can keep it within, you know, and it's just completely

998
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:08,880
Speaker 1: and the hazard placement would be so different and it.

999
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:11,879
Speaker 2: Could be tighter, right, and it's not just distance, it's

1000
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 2: dispersion is huge, and then how much the ball rolls

1001
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 2: after it lands.

1002
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 1: Because then you could get so you know, the contours

1003
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: around the greens matter so much more. And that's where

1004
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 1: the interest, the design interest can be. It can be

1005
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 1: so much different, you know. Really, what you're talking about

1006
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 1: is variety, and it's something that's interesting. What you said

1007
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 1: is like, well, you know, it might not be the

1008
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 1: perfect course. I think about this a lot, is that

1009
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:42,319
Speaker 1: I get the perfect golf course and you go play

1010
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 1: the ten best course in the world. But a lot

1011
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 1: of times the courses that stick with me the most

1012
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 1: stick with me for varieties of reasons. Yeah, and it

1013
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,360
Speaker 1: could be the way. You know, one that I always

1014
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,720
Speaker 1: think about is Diamond Springs, which is a Debrees course

1015
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 1: with Chris Schumacher and Hamilton Michigan. And what I like,

1016
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: just love about it is it's a thirty five dollars

1017
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 1: local course in a rural town and it knows what

1018
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: it is. It's a great golf course, but it's maintained

1019
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 1: to be a thirty five dollars course. It's got single

1020
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 1: row irrigation, you know, single cut grass. If you go

1021
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:26,959
Speaker 1: on and read like Golf Advisor comments, it's funny because

1022
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 1: everybody complains about the fairways being you know, a half

1023
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 1: inch long, and it's like, well, that's why it cost

1024
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 1: you thirty five bucks because they aren't trying to be

1025
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 1: something and it's you know, they just go out there,

1026
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 1: they gang mow it. And then the native is absolutely

1027
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 1: perfect and it's got this great set of greens, but

1028
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 1: nobody would say it's a perfect golf course. But that's

1029
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 1: one that left like a lasting impact on me is like,

1030
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 1: here's a perfect example of how you can make affordable golf.

1031
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 1: And with what you're talking about is like, you know,

1032
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 1: pushing ideas everywhere. Doesn't have to be the world's greatest

1033
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:06,879
Speaker 1: golf course, but you can have a golf course that's

1034
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 1: not one of the best courses in the world, but

1035
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 1: is one of the most memorable courses in the world.

1036
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah, you know, Chris and I sometimes we've started

1037
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 2: saying using the term best in show, right that, because

1038
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 2: it's hard. How do you compare a Part three golf course,

1039
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 2: you know, to Shunecock. They're just so different. But so

1040
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 2: if we're going to build a Part three course, we

1041
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 2: want to build the greatest Part three course that we can, right.

1042
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 2: And if we're gonna build a championship course, we want

1043
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:35,279
Speaker 2: to build the greatest championship course possible. If we're going

1044
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 2: to build a local municipal golf course that you know,

1045
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:42,479
Speaker 2: you could charge twenty bucks and maintain for three hundred

1046
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 2: thousand dollars a year, that's its own category. We want

1047
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 2: to do the best possible. So it's about doing the

1048
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:53,120
Speaker 2: best work you can given you know, the specific product

1049
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:54,280
Speaker 2: that you're trying to achieve.

1050
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, what you're trying to achieve, Right, It's all about

1051
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 1: the focus because like you can make a case and

1052
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 1: people would think this is crazy but like that, the

1053
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 1: Sandbox is the most successful golf course you have. It's

1054
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: at sand Valley, and if people and a lot of

1055
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:09,879
Speaker 1: people would be like, it's a seventeen hole part three course. Yeah,

1056
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 1: how can you say that? And it's not like the

1057
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 1: other courses aren't. I mean, they're both wildly successful.

1058
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 2: But given the hooting, I mean it depends on so

1059
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 2: how do you measure it the hooting and hollering and

1060
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 2: the fun that you have. It's got to be up

1061
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 2: there near the top, right in terms of on the property,

1062
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 2: and you know, it uses less resources, they're cheaper to build.

1063
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 2: It is the highest ri in the property. Par three

1064
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:36,440
Speaker 2: courses are great investments right there. There. There's less turf

1065
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 2: on that entire golf course and heads than there are

1066
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 2: one hole you know, of the resort. So yeah, I

1067
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 2: mean basically the bottom line is we want to measure

1068
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 2: success through happiness and enjoyment, right.

1069
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 1: The measure heads on the entire sandbox? Oh yeah then one.

1070
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 2: Hole, yeah, one of the bigger holes that yeah, yeah,

1071
00:57:57,160 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 2: absolutely wow. Yeah.

1072
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 1: Why don't more Why haven't more municipalities turned to less conventional.

1073
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 2: I have no idea what we're trying to do it,

1074
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 2: you know, I'm here here in Madison. It'll happen. There'll

1075
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 2: be a lag. I think municipalities will be forced to

1076
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 2: consider alternative ways of entertaining golfers in their communities for

1077
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 2: a variety of reasons, but the biggest is economic. So

1078
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:29,440
Speaker 2: I think they will think. I think there's there have

1079
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 2: been some. I mean, you mentioned, you know, you mentioned one,

1080
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 2: and wild Horse is one of my favorite, well my

1081
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,680
Speaker 2: favorite municipal course you know, in the country in Nebraska.

1082
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:41,000
Speaker 2: So I think they will.

1083
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 1: It might just take a while with Wildhorse your favorite.

1084
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 2: It's just it's a fabulous golf course and it's fifty

1085
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 2: I think fifty five bucks with a car on a

1086
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 2: Saturday in the summer, and the price goes down from there.

1087
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 2: So I think it's the greatest value. They're interesting, thoughtful

1088
00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 2: golf holes designed by Dave Excellent and Dan Proctor, you

1089
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:04,440
Speaker 2: know in the sand Hills of Nebraska. They're fun holes

1090
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:09,440
Speaker 2: to play. They're all different. You know, is it pound

1091
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 2: for pound and what you're paying. It's just great value.

1092
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 2: It's of course you'd be happy playing every Saturday, right,

1093
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:20,000
Speaker 2: It's just it's awesome. So, you know, Wolf Point, which

1094
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 2: is maybe maybe was the most exclusive club right a

1095
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 2: club for one. You know, this guy and his best

1096
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:29,520
Speaker 2: friend would play every morning. I actually think the architecture

1097
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 2: and the way it was built is the perfect model

1098
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 2: for municipal golf course. You know, outside of the greens,

1099
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 2: everything is cut with a gang more at one length.

1100
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 2: It's pretty high length. So for me, I love it.

1101
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 2: I could spray it all over. But you know people

1102
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 2: have called it, you know, like Saint Andrew's in Texas.

1103
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 2: The angles are so important, so I'm just happy that

1104
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 2: I'm in the fairway whereas you're, you know, really trying

1105
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 2: to be in the right position to come at these

1106
00:59:57,400 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 2: greens from the right angle so you could get close

1107
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:04,920
Speaker 2: so one height except for greens they had. I know

1108
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 2: it's sold like last week in auction. I don't know

1109
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 2: what's going to happen to it. But they had three

1110
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 2: part time people in the maintenance crew maintained the whole

1111
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 2: golf course. Now they were maintaining it for one person,

1112
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 2: so that would be different if there were at thirty

1113
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:22,440
Speaker 2: thousand rounds. But the way it was designed made it

1114
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 2: a lot easier to maintain for less cost. And I

1115
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:30,919
Speaker 2: think municipal courses should should build, should hire Mike newso

1116
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:35,640
Speaker 2: to build golf courses like wolf Point or other talented architects.

1117
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's it. That's the thing that gets

1118
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 1: so lost with the whole everything is designing it to

1119
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 1: be maintained for very little amount of money, like really

1120
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 1: interesting design that comes with a low maintenance bill.

1121
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1122
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 1: And I feel like a lot of municipalities end up

1123
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 1: going the opposite way where it.

1124
01:00:57,400 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean unfortunately a lot. I mean if you

1125
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:02,040
Speaker 2: ask a lot of they would think that the course

1126
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 2: that's in quote better condition is a better golf course

1127
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 2: than some of those others that are in lesser condition.

1128
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:12,000
Speaker 2: So I don't know how to change that perception and

1129
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 2: get the priorities right so that people are looking for

1130
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 2: the most interesting architecture. I think, you know, through podcasts

1131
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 2: like yours, hopefully you know, creating awareness in the general

1132
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:24,960
Speaker 2: golfing community or at least among you know. I think

1133
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 2: your listeners are the leaders in the golfing community and

1134
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:32,200
Speaker 2: those ideas flow out from them. But you need to

1135
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:34,520
Speaker 2: change that priority and has to start with the retail

1136
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 2: golfer where they want to pay, whether it's ten bucks

1137
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 2: or fifty bucks or one hundred bucks, they want their

1138
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 2: money to go into great architecture and not necessarily into

1139
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 2: flawless fairways. Askernition Scotland is I don't know what they

1140
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 2: spend maintaining that golf course, but it's very little. I

1141
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:56,560
Speaker 2: don't remember too many bunkers. But it's a perfect golf course.

1142
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:59,080
Speaker 2: It's not a perfect golfiger. It's a course you would

1143
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 2: just be delayed did playing every day of the week.

1144
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 2: You know. It's so so they're get I think there's

1145
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:09,200
Speaker 2: many more of those courses, you know, in the UK

1146
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 2: than in the US, but they figured out how to

1147
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 2: do it, and a lot of that is not caring

1148
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:17,120
Speaker 2: what their fairways look like. Fisher's Island, which is, you know,

1149
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:20,919
Speaker 2: a very elite golf club, a fabulous golf course architecturally,

1150
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 2: I'm the most stunning, you know, respectacular views anywhere. I

1151
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:30,760
Speaker 2: just have so much respect for They've never put in

1152
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:34,120
Speaker 2: even single rote irrigation. They don't have fairwell irrigation. They don't.

1153
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 2: They don't care, you know, they're proud of the architecture

1154
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 2: of their golf club. And I think they you know,

1155
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:43,960
Speaker 2: if only everybody had, you know, if they hosted the Masters,

1156
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 2: maybe everybody would have tried to, you know, be like

1157
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 2: be like them. But you know that that's that should

1158
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:54,919
Speaker 2: be the example. You know that we follow just great architecture,

1159
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,919
Speaker 2: stunning architecture, but you know, everybody has an equal chance

1160
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:00,840
Speaker 2: of getting a good or bad liam in the fairway.

1161
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:03,280
Speaker 2: It all evens out. Play it where it lies, and

1162
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 2: don't worry so much about perfectly consistent, immaculate you know fairways.

1163
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:12,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that's there's always been a

1164
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:16,080
Speaker 1: strong element of chance and golf, and the more uniform

1165
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 1: you get with conditioning and actually the expectations of golfers

1166
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:24,160
Speaker 1: gets higher. The less and less chance and the more

1167
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:27,960
Speaker 1: and more bad luck becomes a frustration point for golfers.

1168
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:31,800
Speaker 1: That's the other thing is sure, like rubb of the

1169
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:33,920
Speaker 1: greens always been a big part of the game, and

1170
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:35,800
Speaker 1: that's kind of part of the game, is like, it's

1171
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:38,480
Speaker 1: part of the challenges when you get bad breaks dealing

1172
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:38,919
Speaker 1: with them.

1173
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:42,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And there's a skill in that, and there's

1174
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:45,440
Speaker 2: a the skill is your one's character and it's a

1175
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 2: great revelation of someone's character. This is an odd side

1176
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:51,240
Speaker 2: point being allowsy golfer. One of the reasons I'm lousy

1177
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 2: is I don't hit down on the ball enough. I

1178
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:53,520
Speaker 2: don't compress it.

1179
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 1: You're a sweeper.

1180
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:55,960
Speaker 2: I'm a sweeper.

1181
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 1: I'm a sweeper too.

1182
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 2: You're a much better sweeper that I have. Chimney sweep.

1183
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:04,080
Speaker 2: But I hit some of my best golf shots when

1184
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:06,120
Speaker 2: I end up in a divot, and I'm sort of

1185
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:08,680
Speaker 2: hoping I'm in a dibbot because the only way out

1186
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:10,400
Speaker 2: you can't sweep it out of a divot because you're

1187
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 2: just sweeping the top of the ball. You have to

1188
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:15,480
Speaker 2: hit down on it. And I'm amazed. Some of my

1189
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 2: best shots are when I'm in a divot because I

1190
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 2: am forced to hit down on the ball. So maybe

1191
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 2: maybe we should praise for, you know, being in more dibbots.

1192
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:28,960
Speaker 1: What we talked a little bit earlier about like the

1193
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 1: hustle and at barm Google and the first time I

1194
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:37,080
Speaker 1: visited Sand Valley it was, you know, single trailer, you know,

1195
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:40,120
Speaker 1: sand everywhere, no structures, And every time I drive back

1196
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:42,680
Speaker 1: and now I'm like, oh man, look at this is just

1197
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 1: you know that it's just building, it's growing up. I

1198
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 1: imagine that your job changes so much when the the

1199
01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 1: skills required at the beginning stages of a resort versus

1200
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 1: you know, as you're scaling it are so different. Do

1201
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:06,720
Speaker 1: you do you prefer one part of it more than

1202
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:07,040
Speaker 1: the other.

1203
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:11,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but there's yeah. So when you look at

1204
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:13,439
Speaker 2: all the jobs at a resort, they change over time.

1205
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:18,760
Speaker 2: What my focus changes less, It does change, but I'm

1206
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:21,200
Speaker 2: not deeply involved, you know, in the day to day

1207
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:24,439
Speaker 2: operations of a golf resort, so that changes. Once you're open.

1208
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:26,400
Speaker 2: You need to operate it right and deal with hundreds

1209
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:30,680
Speaker 2: of people today, you know, passing through. So in terms

1210
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:33,200
Speaker 2: of what I do, I guess I'm always a year

1211
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 2: to two to five years out ahead, right, developing and

1212
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:41,720
Speaker 2: planning what's going to come now, getting the first hall

1213
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 2: out of the ground, there's maybe some skills that are

1214
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:48,080
Speaker 2: different than when you're onto the third course. But my

1215
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 2: job it changes a ton hour to hour and day

1216
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 2: to day. Right, There's so many different things going on

1217
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:58,200
Speaker 2: at a resort, but year to year there's there's general

1218
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 2: there's general consistency. What I would say is this sounds odd,

1219
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:10,440
Speaker 2: but the greatest letdown is the day the course opens

1220
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:12,840
Speaker 2: or the day after, you know, the day it opens.

1221
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:14,840
Speaker 2: Chris and I are the first t ats and Valley.

1222
01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 2: You know, my dad's on the first t abandoned, you know,

1223
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:19,560
Speaker 2: and you're just seeing excited, funk golfers and that energy

1224
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:27,240
Speaker 2: is amazing. There's nothing better, although the Texans. I remember

1225
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 2: when Sand Valley opened, it was like a freak cold,

1226
01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:36,000
Speaker 2: windy day and we were teasing mister Well, we were

1227
01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 2: all just joking about how it was a miserable day,

1228
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:43,200
Speaker 2: but it was a delightful day. The process is so

1229
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:47,640
Speaker 2: enjoyable and rewarding. I mean it's hard. I mean it's

1230
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 2: brutally hard right to get it, as you know, to

1231
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:53,200
Speaker 2: get any business off the ground, but it's also extremely

1232
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:57,400
Speaker 2: fun and rewarding. And the day it's over, it's like

1233
01:06:57,800 --> 01:06:59,120
Speaker 2: we got to go on to the next thing. Right.

1234
01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:02,040
Speaker 2: It's an addiction, and I'm my personality doesn't let me

1235
01:07:02,120 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 2: just enjoy it. And you know, we're there, Let's soak

1236
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:07,640
Speaker 2: it up a little bit, let's relax, let's enjoy it.

1237
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:11,000
Speaker 2: It's it's already on to we got to do this again, right,

1238
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:14,880
Speaker 2: So I guess what changes is once it opens. There

1239
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:18,240
Speaker 2: is a focus and we have you know, some involvement

1240
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:23,560
Speaker 2: you know in the operations sort of big picture. But

1241
01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:25,200
Speaker 2: but it's a letdown when we open, we have to

1242
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:27,600
Speaker 2: go do it again. And we're never going to stop

1243
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:30,960
Speaker 2: because we wouldn't we wouldn't be able to just hold court,

1244
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 2: you know.

1245
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:34,080
Speaker 1: And the that's the worst thing that could happen to

1246
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:36,280
Speaker 1: you is if they just said it. You can't do

1247
01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:37,480
Speaker 1: anything right now to be.

1248
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:40,080
Speaker 2: The worst and you know there there. We're never going

1249
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:42,920
Speaker 2: to run out of golf sites, you know, we I've

1250
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:44,720
Speaker 2: worried about that in the past, and I think people

1251
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:48,320
Speaker 2: have talked about that. There's millions of great golf, millions

1252
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:50,120
Speaker 2: of great golf sites around the world, So we're not

1253
01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 2: going to run out of sites. I do start to worry,

1254
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:55,520
Speaker 2: you know, our main focus are these destination golf resorts.

1255
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 2: You know, eventually will we begin you know, and that

1256
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:01,680
Speaker 2: would be a great problem if we're lucky enough to

1257
01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:04,680
Speaker 2: start saturating the market, But then we would do you know,

1258
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:07,720
Speaker 2: regional golf resorts. You know. I would love to spend

1259
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:11,680
Speaker 2: time in my life building great, affordable, municipal golf courses.

1260
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:14,520
Speaker 2: You know. That's that's something that I hope years from

1261
01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:16,280
Speaker 2: now we could be talking about some of those that

1262
01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:20,360
Speaker 2: we're doing, like the courses that we're just talking about.

1263
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:24,479
Speaker 2: But well, I'll never stop. And not knowing my brother

1264
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:26,760
Speaker 2: and my dad. They're never going to stop either, so

1265
01:08:27,600 --> 01:08:28,760
Speaker 2: we're keep going.

1266
01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:32,000
Speaker 1: It's funny how that, like how your worries change, like

1267
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:34,840
Speaker 1: you just talked about, like you know, and I get

1268
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:37,680
Speaker 1: a lot of people that message me is like, you know,

1269
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 1: when are there isn't aren't they going to run out

1270
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:42,160
Speaker 1: of sandy? Site? Aren't is in the world? And I'm like,

1271
01:08:42,280 --> 01:08:44,080
Speaker 1: you know how much sand there is out there?

1272
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:48,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think yeah. It's when you start looking for

1273
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:51,240
Speaker 2: it and finding sites, which I now spend some of

1274
01:08:51,320 --> 01:08:53,720
Speaker 2: my time doing. It's then you're relieved at you know,

1275
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:55,920
Speaker 2: the challenge is whittling it down to the best sites,

1276
01:08:56,720 --> 01:09:00,360
Speaker 2: and then ninety nine percent of the challenges is then

1277
01:09:00,400 --> 01:09:05,000
Speaker 2: getting it done right. But we're never at golf is

1278
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:06,760
Speaker 2: never going to run out of sites. I mean, for

1279
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:10,120
Speaker 2: environmental reasons, coastal sites may become harder and harder to

1280
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:14,559
Speaker 2: develop in this country and in the EU, so those

1281
01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:20,200
Speaker 2: might be off the table at some point. But fabulous goal.

1282
01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:23,680
Speaker 2: I mean if you drive I did a drive this

1283
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:28,280
Speaker 2: summer from Valentine, Nebraska to Denver, Colorado, and the entire

1284
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:30,240
Speaker 2: drive you're looking left and right and you're seeing nothing

1285
01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:32,719
Speaker 2: but great golf courses right and that's on one road.

1286
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:36,519
Speaker 2: You know, that's just one region in our country and

1287
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:40,559
Speaker 2: one country on the planet. There's a huge percentage of

1288
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:43,680
Speaker 2: our planet is sand, and we're not going to run

1289
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:44,439
Speaker 2: out of sand sites.

1290
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:47,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing when you drive through an area and

1291
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:51,080
Speaker 1: like it's really it's almost hard to drive because yeah,

1292
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:55,200
Speaker 1: you can just see the holes going and it's what's

1293
01:09:55,360 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 1: uh you say, you enjoy your enjoy the conclusion, it's

1294
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:02,599
Speaker 1: almost bittersweet.

1295
01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:06,759
Speaker 2: It's it's more bitter. It's more bitter because the process

1296
01:10:06,840 --> 01:10:10,000
Speaker 2: is so sweet that almost the only thing we're left

1297
01:10:10,040 --> 01:10:13,400
Speaker 2: with is it's over. And it's not over. There's new

1298
01:10:13,439 --> 01:10:17,599
Speaker 2: challenges and new joys, but the fun isn't doing it.

1299
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:20,520
Speaker 1: But what's the point where you take the most satisfaction

1300
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:22,280
Speaker 1: in a new course build?

1301
01:10:23,200 --> 01:10:27,960
Speaker 2: I would say when like in the early stages of

1302
01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:31,960
Speaker 2: developing a concept, So when either finding a new site

1303
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:35,519
Speaker 2: or this project that we're working with Jim Orbina on,

1304
01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:38,080
Speaker 2: you know, those those first moments first time we see

1305
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:40,720
Speaker 2: the site, when you're looking around and seeing nothing but

1306
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:44,839
Speaker 2: golf holes in all directions, when anything is possible, that's

1307
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:48,040
Speaker 2: the fun point when anything is possible. And then it's

1308
01:10:48,080 --> 01:10:51,400
Speaker 2: also fun to start whittling that down into a reality,

1309
01:10:51,439 --> 01:10:54,040
Speaker 2: which is your vision, right or your shared vision right.

1310
01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:59,519
Speaker 2: It's a very collaborative process. So, but those those first

1311
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:03,479
Speaker 2: moments on a site, you're just starting. You know, it's

1312
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:05,720
Speaker 2: like being on a first date. Right. I remember when

1313
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:09,000
Speaker 2: I met my wife, and you know, those those first

1314
01:11:09,080 --> 01:11:11,559
Speaker 2: dates are so exciting. Anything is possible, and I want

1315
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:14,280
Speaker 2: to get to know this person. It's been every you know.

1316
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:18,559
Speaker 1: And like everything else in the world goes just shuts up,

1317
01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:22,559
Speaker 1: and it's the it's like almost like a maniacal focus

1318
01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:25,479
Speaker 1: on what. I remember. When I met my wife, it

1319
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:28,360
Speaker 1: was you know, like I was sitting at a bar

1320
01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:31,320
Speaker 1: with a bunch of buddies and then like I met

1321
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:34,280
Speaker 1: her and then it was it was everything else, nothing

1322
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:36,600
Speaker 1: else matter. Yeah, for the you know, and it was

1323
01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:39,880
Speaker 1: just it. And I imagine when you get in a

1324
01:11:39,920 --> 01:11:43,960
Speaker 1: creative process, it's very similar. Like where I'll be doing something,

1325
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:47,839
Speaker 1: whether it's writing or working on something, and I'll realize

1326
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:51,320
Speaker 1: it's like it's like eight pm. I haven't been out

1327
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:54,960
Speaker 1: of my basement in eight hours. I haven't eaten anything,

1328
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:59,320
Speaker 1: I haven't drank anything. And I imagine that's getting lost

1329
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:00,559
Speaker 1: in a project.

1330
01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:03,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then oh it's dark and we're three miles

1331
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:05,640
Speaker 2: we got to make our way back. How did it

1332
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:10,120
Speaker 2: get dark? And then any of the moments spent with

1333
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:14,120
Speaker 2: the architects, you know, most you know, most of what

1334
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:16,880
Speaker 2: I guess I do is not that glamorous, right, It's

1335
01:12:16,920 --> 01:12:20,320
Speaker 2: not walking with Tom Doak or Bill. And there are

1336
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:23,120
Speaker 2: other really fun you know, as we develop restaurants that's fun,

1337
01:12:23,360 --> 01:12:26,920
Speaker 2: and lodging, but really any time spent with the architects

1338
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:29,040
Speaker 2: or with my brother and my dad, you know, on

1339
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:31,320
Speaker 2: the ground, and those are the most fun. But the

1340
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:34,760
Speaker 2: early days are really really exciting.

1341
01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:35,759
Speaker 1: It's the hustle.

1342
01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:39,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, well yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess so, I

1343
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:41,280
Speaker 2: guess the hustle begins. It's the beginning of the hustle.

1344
01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:47,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it. I struggle. Once I get things going

1345
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:51,360
Speaker 1: with with then just like keep going on them. I

1346
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:54,840
Speaker 1: always want to start new stuff. Yeah, And it's you know,

1347
01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:57,240
Speaker 1: I have to get on myself about like, no, you

1348
01:12:57,280 --> 01:13:00,640
Speaker 1: can't just abandon doing this because people like you know,

1349
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:05,080
Speaker 1: it's like but there's always I think there's different personality

1350
01:13:05,160 --> 01:13:08,760
Speaker 1: types and being your builder, you know, you want to

1351
01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:11,519
Speaker 1: you always want to be working on the next thing.

1352
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:13,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's real. I think it's hard

1353
01:13:13,680 --> 01:13:17,519
Speaker 2: for anybody who's who's creative, but it's really important. And

1354
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:20,880
Speaker 2: I've noticed people are successful they focus on one thing

1355
01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:23,240
Speaker 2: until they see it all the way through to fruition

1356
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:26,200
Speaker 2: and at a resort, whether it's the next golf course

1357
01:13:26,560 --> 01:13:29,720
Speaker 2: or you know, we could cater there's just so many

1358
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:34,680
Speaker 2: directions we could go in. And my personality goes. My

1359
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:36,120
Speaker 2: mind goes in a lot of directions. And one of

1360
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:40,040
Speaker 2: the things I'm proud of is staying completely focused on

1361
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:43,479
Speaker 2: the project, whatever the sub project is, the golf course,

1362
01:13:43,479 --> 01:13:46,960
Speaker 2: in the hotel, the restaurant, until we're there, right, and

1363
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:49,800
Speaker 2: you're never there, you always refining it. But okay, now

1364
01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:51,560
Speaker 2: let's go to the next step, you know, so to

1365
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:55,479
Speaker 2: force myself to be linear. And here's step one, there's

1366
01:13:55,479 --> 01:13:57,759
Speaker 2: step two, then step three. Now we could get into

1367
01:13:57,800 --> 01:14:00,639
Speaker 2: this area. But it took five years. And even though

1368
01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:02,679
Speaker 2: we wanted to do it in year zero through five,

1369
01:14:03,040 --> 01:14:06,280
Speaker 2: you know, we waited because we're And that's that's discipline, right,

1370
01:14:06,320 --> 01:14:08,840
Speaker 2: And it takes discipline when you have a mind that

1371
01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:10,360
Speaker 2: does tend to go in a lot of.

1372
01:14:11,280 --> 01:14:14,080
Speaker 1: It's getting it somewhere where it's ready to hand off

1373
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:17,880
Speaker 1: and where somebody that can execute it to the end

1374
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:20,840
Speaker 1: is And that's you know, that's like so it's so

1375
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:23,439
Speaker 1: relatable to so many other businesses.

1376
01:14:23,120 --> 01:14:26,360
Speaker 2: I think, starting any business. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I agree.

1377
01:14:27,360 --> 01:14:31,599
Speaker 1: So it would talk about personalities of architects. You spend

1378
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:34,840
Speaker 1: a ton of time with architects. You've worked you know

1379
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:37,439
Speaker 1: at sand Valley alone. Now you're working with Tom, but

1380
01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:41,000
Speaker 1: you worked with Bill and Ben and David McLay kid.

1381
01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:44,320
Speaker 1: Do you notice that do each of them have different

1382
01:14:44,439 --> 01:14:49,040
Speaker 1: kind of things that they that different personalities that yield

1383
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 1: different strengths and different you know from what they bring

1384
01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:53,759
Speaker 1: to the table.

1385
01:14:55,760 --> 01:14:59,000
Speaker 2: Yes, they all very different personalities to start with. They're

1386
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:01,559
Speaker 2: all just delightful people that you want to spend time

1387
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:06,479
Speaker 2: with and really wonderful human beings, right, And you know,

1388
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:12,040
Speaker 2: I think deservedly, Bill and Ben have that that reputation

1389
01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:14,599
Speaker 2: on you know, not just being brilliant architects, but being

1390
01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:18,960
Speaker 2: really wonderful human beings and caring about the people in

1391
01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:23,320
Speaker 2: their lives and treating all people that they interact with

1392
01:15:23,320 --> 01:15:29,679
Speaker 2: with respect. So and that's deserved. You know, I think

1393
01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:32,519
Speaker 2: I didn't well, I knew David a little bit when

1394
01:15:32,560 --> 01:15:35,720
Speaker 2: he was young and maybe more brash, but I've known

1395
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:39,960
Speaker 2: him now, I guess more in his forties and I won't.

1396
01:15:40,040 --> 01:15:42,240
Speaker 2: I don't, I won't. I don't know his age now,

1397
01:15:42,280 --> 01:15:44,280
Speaker 2: but he might be maybe he's fifty now.

1398
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:47,240
Speaker 1: But I feel like I fine. I saw it was

1399
01:15:47,880 --> 01:15:49,200
Speaker 1: a big birthday.

1400
01:15:49,280 --> 01:15:53,720
Speaker 2: It's Scotland, his fortieth. But but he's a really wonderful

1401
01:15:54,160 --> 01:15:57,240
Speaker 2: person and not enough people, I guess. I guess people

1402
01:15:57,280 --> 01:16:01,240
Speaker 2: who know him know that, uh. And he's very empathetic.

1403
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:04,559
Speaker 2: Our staff loves him, he treats he treats people you know,

1404
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:06,760
Speaker 2: so kindly, and he really cares about the people he

1405
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:13,559
Speaker 2: works with that you know. And from what I know

1406
01:16:13,600 --> 01:16:16,720
Speaker 2: about Tom, he's you know, his team loves him and

1407
01:16:16,760 --> 01:16:19,120
Speaker 2: he's been such a delight to work with. You know,

1408
01:16:19,240 --> 01:16:23,080
Speaker 2: He's so they're are just as a starting point. These

1409
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:25,760
Speaker 2: are really wonderful, you know, human beings, and that's the

1410
01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:29,760
Speaker 2: most important part, and to me, that's a prerequisite. You know,

1411
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:33,240
Speaker 2: you need to be smart, right, you need to be

1412
01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:35,680
Speaker 2: really hard working, they all are, but you also have

1413
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:37,200
Speaker 2: to be a good person, right, because we only get

1414
01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:40,800
Speaker 2: one crack at this life and we want to enjoy it.

1415
01:16:41,720 --> 01:16:44,640
Speaker 2: To answer your question, I think I think you know,

1416
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:49,759
Speaker 2: there's the fast brain, slow brain, right. I think Bill

1417
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:55,800
Speaker 2: and Ben are extraordinarily deliberate. They do you know, they'll have,

1418
01:16:56,040 --> 01:16:59,240
Speaker 2: you know, the reputation which is earned to maybe sit

1419
01:16:59,760 --> 01:17:02,760
Speaker 2: you know in a single place for hours on end

1420
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:05,840
Speaker 2: and stand or you know, Dick Young Scaps tells the

1421
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:08,880
Speaker 2: story about you know, seeing Bill cor down on his

1422
01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:12,800
Speaker 2: belly just looking at the horizon for like game back.

1423
01:17:12,800 --> 01:17:15,360
Speaker 2: Hours later. He's still there. But he thinks really hard

1424
01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:20,559
Speaker 2: and long. He's very deliberate, and and he worked, you know,

1425
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:23,479
Speaker 2: he works, and his whole team and Ben they work.

1426
01:17:24,479 --> 01:17:26,800
Speaker 2: You know, they work past dark. You know, Jimmy Craig

1427
01:17:26,840 --> 01:17:29,639
Speaker 2: would would just bring his car out to a green

1428
01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:31,479
Speaker 2: and put the floodlights on and keep going. You know,

1429
01:17:31,600 --> 01:17:36,480
Speaker 2: night wouldn't stop them. So that whole team is really deliberate.

1430
01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:39,599
Speaker 2: Nothing is russ. Let's really think this through. David has

1431
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:43,679
Speaker 2: a very fast, fast brain, right, I mean he's he's

1432
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:47,439
Speaker 2: very intuitive, you know, and he has these flashes of

1433
01:17:47,479 --> 01:17:49,760
Speaker 2: brilliance where it comes to him in a flash. And

1434
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:54,000
Speaker 2: that's not neither method is better. But David is a

1435
01:17:54,160 --> 01:17:58,599
Speaker 2: very fast running brain and he gets inspired and boom,

1436
01:17:58,640 --> 01:18:00,640
Speaker 2: that's it. Let's go and he'll come up with an

1437
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:04,240
Speaker 2: entire great concept and you know, in a moment he doesn't.

1438
01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:07,559
Speaker 2: You know, he does grond all these architects after grind,

1439
01:18:07,560 --> 01:18:10,840
Speaker 2: he grinds through it. But I've seen he has more flashes.

1440
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:15,200
Speaker 2: Their methods are different. I think Bill and Ben phil more.

1441
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:18,559
Speaker 2: I think Jason Way wrote an article for you on that,

1442
01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:28,720
Speaker 2: and David tends to cut. And you know Tom's personality

1443
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:31,599
Speaker 2: and these are big stereotypes because they all have such

1444
01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:36,040
Speaker 2: dynamic personality. It seems to be very analytical. You know,

1445
01:18:36,160 --> 01:18:40,000
Speaker 2: he's seen, you know, maybe along with Darius Oliver, you know,

1446
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:43,120
Speaker 2: more golf courses than anybody else on the planet, and

1447
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:45,280
Speaker 2: thought really hard about every single one of them. And

1448
01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:48,040
Speaker 2: he has just this repertoire of images and ideas and

1449
01:18:48,080 --> 01:18:50,000
Speaker 2: has head that he has spent a lot of time

1450
01:18:50,120 --> 01:18:53,960
Speaker 2: thinking about, thinking hard about logically, about talking with people

1451
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:59,280
Speaker 2: about He's so thoughtful and analytical. But I'm still I'm

1452
01:18:59,320 --> 01:19:04,280
Speaker 2: still getting in to know him and what his personality is.

1453
01:19:04,600 --> 01:19:08,160
Speaker 2: I find his whole you know, he wrote, Look, he

1454
01:19:08,200 --> 01:19:10,880
Speaker 2: wrote Confidential Guide, and I know that shocked some people.

1455
01:19:11,240 --> 01:19:15,720
Speaker 2: I find I find Tom so refreshing because you know,

1456
01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:17,600
Speaker 2: it's it's not emotional.

1457
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:19,160
Speaker 1: It's not personality.

1458
01:19:19,439 --> 01:19:22,040
Speaker 2: It's just honest, and you don't see a lot of it, right,

1459
01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:25,160
Speaker 2: And we all tend to try to soften the message

1460
01:19:25,160 --> 01:19:30,880
Speaker 2: and sugarcoat it, and he doesn't. I really respect that.

1461
01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:33,320
Speaker 1: He's very authentic.

1462
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:34,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what you're getting.

1463
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:37,679
Speaker 1: And I think that's one of the things that it's

1464
01:19:38,120 --> 01:19:43,439
Speaker 1: everybody's got. Everybody's personality is they're all their own artists, right,

1465
01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:46,040
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of different personality within the art

1466
01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:50,400
Speaker 1: artists repertoire. It's just a It's an interesting thing to

1467
01:19:50,439 --> 01:19:54,280
Speaker 1: think about because as I've gotten to know all of them,

1468
01:19:54,320 --> 01:19:57,080
Speaker 1: you start to see the personality and their work, you know.

1469
01:19:57,160 --> 01:19:59,639
Speaker 1: And it's like Tom is always going to be trying

1470
01:19:59,680 --> 01:20:02,680
Speaker 1: to put you know, and do something new, Like he's

1471
01:20:03,040 --> 01:20:06,400
Speaker 1: somebody that is you know. He does not like to

1472
01:20:06,560 --> 01:20:09,280
Speaker 1: build the same type of golf course like and he will.

1473
01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:11,679
Speaker 1: I feel like that's the thing that he least wants

1474
01:20:11,720 --> 01:20:14,400
Speaker 1: to do. Yeah, is if somebody said, hey, I want

1475
01:20:14,439 --> 01:20:16,960
Speaker 1: you to build another Pacific Dunes, he'd be like, I'm

1476
01:20:16,960 --> 01:20:18,760
Speaker 1: not the guy for your job, you know.

1477
01:20:20,560 --> 01:20:22,559
Speaker 2: And that's really cool, right, And he's gonna keep He's

1478
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:25,800
Speaker 2: gonna be he's gonna be pushing boundaries because he just

1479
01:20:25,960 --> 01:20:28,680
Speaker 2: doesn't have interest in doing anything twice. Yeah, but I

1480
01:20:28,680 --> 01:20:30,640
Speaker 2: think that could be said in different ways to to

1481
01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:34,280
Speaker 2: you know, to all these great architects that they're not

1482
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:38,360
Speaker 2: you know, they're not if you know, I don't think

1483
01:20:38,360 --> 01:20:40,760
Speaker 2: Bill wants to do another sand Hills, you know, or

1484
01:20:40,800 --> 01:20:44,160
Speaker 2: another Trails, or he wants to try some something different.

1485
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:47,120
Speaker 2: But sometimes you know, you asked Tom about, you know,

1486
01:20:47,439 --> 01:20:51,080
Speaker 2: which of his holes would he template? And maybe sometimes

1487
01:20:51,080 --> 01:20:53,160
Speaker 2: they should. If it's a great theme, you know, maybe

1488
01:20:53,160 --> 01:20:56,160
Speaker 2: they should, they should go back and play play off

1489
01:20:56,200 --> 01:20:56,439
Speaker 2: of it.

1490
01:20:56,800 --> 01:20:59,799
Speaker 1: It's interesting to think about with like UH, with Rainer

1491
01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:05,519
Speaker 1: and UH and like McDonald and the templates and and

1492
01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:11,120
Speaker 1: how I guess you know, modern art is people love them.

1493
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:14,879
Speaker 1: You I think it's because people know what to expect

1494
01:21:15,280 --> 01:21:17,320
Speaker 1: in a way, you know, like they know what they're

1495
01:21:17,320 --> 01:21:19,760
Speaker 1: getting into and they can recognize it, and they've I

1496
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:21,920
Speaker 1: think people like the familiarity of them.

1497
01:21:21,920 --> 01:21:25,160
Speaker 2: Well, they're already familiar with the strategy, right so over

1498
01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:28,120
Speaker 2: time it's either been explained to them or they've learned

1499
01:21:28,120 --> 01:21:31,080
Speaker 2: it through repetition. And it's nice to have that advantage

1500
01:21:31,120 --> 01:21:33,360
Speaker 2: on the tea to know, you know, what the objectives

1501
01:21:33,400 --> 01:21:36,760
Speaker 2: are and what you know, so maybe there's something there

1502
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:38,320
Speaker 2: that the strategy is.

1503
01:21:39,280 --> 01:21:43,680
Speaker 1: Maybe it's there. They don't golfers hate discomfort and templates

1504
01:21:43,680 --> 01:21:47,080
Speaker 1: make them comfortable. Yeah, you know, yeah, it's it's an

1505
01:21:47,120 --> 01:21:47,920
Speaker 1: interesting thing.

1506
01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:51,560
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously this isn't an original observation, but you know,

1507
01:21:51,680 --> 01:21:56,120
Speaker 2: jazz standards. You know, jazz musicians love creating new music,

1508
01:21:56,200 --> 01:22:00,599
Speaker 2: but they also love riffing off of a standard, right,

1509
01:22:00,720 --> 01:22:03,360
Speaker 2: and there's you know, Caravan is one of my favorite

1510
01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:06,760
Speaker 2: you know songs, and everybody plays it differently, and it's

1511
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:10,519
Speaker 2: cool to see how you know, Rainer, you know, and

1512
01:22:10,680 --> 01:22:14,160
Speaker 2: McDonald used templates. It'd be neat if it was more common.

1513
01:22:14,439 --> 01:22:16,960
Speaker 2: And you know, Tom and Bill do you know dance,

1514
01:22:17,240 --> 01:22:19,040
Speaker 2: But if it was more common, just to see how

1515
01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:24,240
Speaker 2: a different artist interprets a different standard. Again, I'd love

1516
01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:27,720
Speaker 2: hearing and a lot of jazz standards, but Caravan is

1517
01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:29,960
Speaker 2: played by so many different people and it's like they're

1518
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:30,719
Speaker 2: different songs.

1519
01:22:32,200 --> 01:22:37,559
Speaker 1: So and so with you guys, a you've done most

1520
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:39,519
Speaker 1: of your golf court people would put it in the

1521
01:22:39,600 --> 01:22:43,400
Speaker 1: minimalism bank. Whether whether you like the word or not,

1522
01:22:43,640 --> 01:22:46,880
Speaker 1: you know, whether you like the stereotype, they're very lay

1523
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:49,800
Speaker 1: of the land. Would you guys ever think about doing

1524
01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:54,680
Speaker 1: something drastically different where it was a a type of

1525
01:22:54,840 --> 01:22:57,840
Speaker 1: facility you just that is you take a sight and

1526
01:22:57,880 --> 01:22:59,360
Speaker 1: you completely transform it.

1527
01:23:01,080 --> 01:23:02,720
Speaker 2: Think about it. I don't know if we'll ever do it,

1528
01:23:03,840 --> 01:23:09,400
Speaker 2: but we've I've thought about it. Uh. You know, one

1529
01:23:09,400 --> 01:23:12,760
Speaker 2: thing my dad's talked a lot about is rebuilding the lido, right,

1530
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:14,840
Speaker 2: so that would that would be building. Of course it's

1531
01:23:14,840 --> 01:23:19,480
Speaker 2: already been built, but also the original lido was completely manufactured.

1532
01:23:20,960 --> 01:23:26,000
Speaker 2: I've thought about it the Actually I called mister Core

1533
01:23:26,080 --> 01:23:29,439
Speaker 2: recently to just to just to have a similar conversation,

1534
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:32,639
Speaker 2: because here's what I was I'm curious about that. There

1535
01:23:32,680 --> 01:23:36,720
Speaker 2: are times when you know, these architects have to manufacture

1536
01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:40,800
Speaker 2: tea's or greens compared to the guys who move, you know,

1537
01:23:40,920 --> 01:23:44,080
Speaker 2: millions of acres. It's nothing right, but it's not to

1538
01:23:44,120 --> 01:23:47,759
Speaker 2: say that they're never moving any any dirt at all.

1539
01:23:48,439 --> 01:23:51,400
Speaker 2: And you know, the architects we're lucky enough to work with,

1540
01:23:51,520 --> 01:23:55,400
Speaker 2: you'd never you never know. Uh, they're so good that

1541
01:23:55,479 --> 01:24:00,840
Speaker 2: I've started to wonder. This is going to sound blasphemous,

1542
01:24:00,840 --> 01:24:06,880
Speaker 2: but you know, if Bill Core wasn't constrained, you know,

1543
01:24:07,160 --> 01:24:11,519
Speaker 2: by God's starting point, what might he come up with?

1544
01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:15,719
Speaker 2: Right if, like Leedo, it was a blank palette, pure

1545
01:24:15,840 --> 01:24:19,479
Speaker 2: sand and just just what, you know what, what's so

1546
01:24:19,600 --> 01:24:22,479
Speaker 2: you're not riffing off of it. I'm just really curious

1547
01:24:22,520 --> 01:24:26,439
Speaker 2: what he might come up with, and I suspect it might.

1548
01:24:26,479 --> 01:24:28,599
Speaker 2: It might maybe, I don't know. Maybe it's even better.

1549
01:24:28,920 --> 01:24:32,639
Speaker 2: We're so lucky in that we have access to such

1550
01:24:32,680 --> 01:24:36,120
Speaker 2: great sites that I think it's it's a fun thing

1551
01:24:36,160 --> 01:24:40,160
Speaker 2: to think about, but it will probably always remain sort

1552
01:24:40,160 --> 01:24:44,439
Speaker 2: of an intellectual conversation because if you have this perfectly

1553
01:24:44,479 --> 01:24:51,120
Speaker 2: flat piece of sand versus a great site, how could

1554
01:24:51,160 --> 01:24:53,479
Speaker 2: you It's almost like our responsibility. There's always gonna be

1555
01:24:53,520 --> 01:24:57,120
Speaker 2: the perfectly flat site. So I think it will always

1556
01:24:57,160 --> 01:24:59,519
Speaker 2: be pushed off into the future and therefore never done

1557
01:24:59,560 --> 01:25:02,519
Speaker 2: because why wouldn't you, Why wouldn't you develop? But with

1558
01:25:02,600 --> 01:25:05,240
Speaker 2: the exception of I would say the Leado at some point,

1559
01:25:06,680 --> 01:25:11,320
Speaker 2: I mean, that was such a spectacular golf course. To

1560
01:25:11,400 --> 01:25:14,919
Speaker 2: restore that at some point in time would be It's

1561
01:25:14,960 --> 01:25:16,479
Speaker 2: something I know that something my dads want to do

1562
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:18,360
Speaker 2: for a long time, and I've caught the bug. It's

1563
01:25:18,360 --> 01:25:21,040
Speaker 2: something I want to do. Uh So and I know

1564
01:25:21,120 --> 01:25:23,120
Speaker 2: it's something that Chris is excited about too. So at

1565
01:25:23,120 --> 01:25:25,439
Speaker 2: the right moment in time, with the right site, I

1566
01:25:25,479 --> 01:25:30,360
Speaker 2: think we do the lido, and gosh, I would love

1567
01:25:30,400 --> 01:25:31,920
Speaker 2: to see I don't think we'll do it, but I'd

1568
01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:35,280
Speaker 2: love to see what any of these architects would do

1569
01:25:35,720 --> 01:25:41,920
Speaker 2: with a carte blonde, just carte blanche site. And so,

1570
01:25:45,800 --> 01:25:49,720
Speaker 2: you know, another thing that's been talked about, and Bill

1571
01:25:49,760 --> 01:25:51,680
Speaker 2: and Ben have talked about for a long time is

1572
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:55,120
Speaker 2: you know, she gets somebody who knows nothing about architecture

1573
01:25:55,200 --> 01:25:57,160
Speaker 2: to go and just rough it up and then come

1574
01:25:57,200 --> 01:26:00,280
Speaker 2: back thirty years later. And in some sense, that's what

1575
01:26:00,280 --> 01:26:02,960
Speaker 2: happened at stream Song, right, and it resulted in a

1576
01:26:03,040 --> 01:26:07,040
Speaker 2: really great landscape for golf. So if you don't know

1577
01:26:07,080 --> 01:26:11,120
Speaker 2: how to find a great piece of land, or you know,

1578
01:26:11,200 --> 01:26:14,320
Speaker 2: if it seems out of reach, then just go just

1579
01:26:14,360 --> 01:26:17,880
Speaker 2: go mess it up and if it's sand, and then

1580
01:26:17,960 --> 01:26:20,439
Speaker 2: let God take over for thirty years and come back.

1581
01:26:20,439 --> 01:26:22,120
Speaker 2: And if you don't have thirty years, come back twenty

1582
01:26:22,200 --> 01:26:23,600
Speaker 2: years or ten years.

1583
01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:27,000
Speaker 1: I has gotten a long conversation with Mike Cocking this

1584
01:26:27,120 --> 01:26:31,680
Speaker 1: summer about something similar about the idea of just of

1585
01:26:31,840 --> 01:26:36,240
Speaker 1: just like you know, having somebody and not communicating with

1586
01:26:36,360 --> 01:26:38,640
Speaker 1: the person that went out there and moved all this

1587
01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:42,080
Speaker 1: stuff around. Have them just go crazy for like a

1588
01:26:42,120 --> 01:26:45,479
Speaker 1: week moving dirt all over the place and then just

1589
01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:47,639
Speaker 1: leave it for a couple of years and come back.

1590
01:26:47,680 --> 01:26:50,960
Speaker 1: But then the economics I imagine of holding the land

1591
01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:52,879
Speaker 1: would be one of the problems, right.

1592
01:26:53,800 --> 01:26:57,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, certainly.

1593
01:26:57,280 --> 01:26:59,800
Speaker 1: Because that's what we got talking about this, because we

1594
01:26:59,800 --> 01:27:03,960
Speaker 1: talk about how how golf kind of started to get

1595
01:27:04,000 --> 01:27:06,960
Speaker 1: built in these funnels, and they'd build all the this,

1596
01:27:07,560 --> 01:27:11,760
Speaker 1: they create all this stuff on the outside, whereas if

1597
01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:15,200
Speaker 1: you almost routed over all the stuff they created and

1598
01:27:15,240 --> 01:27:17,880
Speaker 1: built the golf over it, whereas it as opposed to

1599
01:27:17,920 --> 01:27:21,599
Speaker 1: it being on the xterior, if being played over, you'd

1600
01:27:21,640 --> 01:27:24,880
Speaker 1: have really cool stuff like the eighth hole at Prairie Dunes,

1601
01:27:25,360 --> 01:27:27,000
Speaker 1: where you know you I.

1602
01:27:26,920 --> 01:27:28,720
Speaker 2: Think you'll see I think you'll see more of that

1603
01:27:28,760 --> 01:27:30,960
Speaker 2: at tom Sedge Valley, at Sand Valley, he's playing up

1604
01:27:31,000 --> 01:27:33,559
Speaker 2: and over like the the ground that he covers on

1605
01:27:33,640 --> 01:27:36,880
Speaker 2: the fairway is maybe you know, more dramatic like like

1606
01:27:36,920 --> 01:27:39,560
Speaker 2: what you're describing there. But going to the economics of

1607
01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:43,000
Speaker 2: of that conversation, the carrying costs of the land, certainly

1608
01:27:43,840 --> 01:27:47,360
Speaker 2: there's there's a carrying cost. But let's let's just do

1609
01:27:47,439 --> 01:27:50,040
Speaker 2: the math for a second. Let's say you bought three

1610
01:27:50,120 --> 01:27:52,280
Speaker 2: hundred acres at one thousand dollars an acre, and you

1611
01:27:52,320 --> 01:27:54,040
Speaker 2: buy it less than that. So let's say five hundred

1612
01:27:54,040 --> 01:28:00,679
Speaker 2: dollars an acre thousand dollars one point five million dollars.

1613
01:28:00,720 --> 01:28:02,040
Speaker 2: Just so we're not embarrassed.

1614
01:28:02,080 --> 01:28:05,040
Speaker 1: Let's let's I embarrass myself all the time.

1615
01:28:05,120 --> 01:28:10,160
Speaker 2: Let's bring later. I'd say you have three hundred times

1616
01:28:10,200 --> 01:28:14,679
Speaker 2: five hundred. That's one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, right

1617
01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:18,519
Speaker 2: and in you know, interest rates were just lowered on Monday.

1618
01:28:18,520 --> 01:28:22,000
Speaker 2: But let's say you can you could borrow it under

1619
01:28:22,040 --> 01:28:24,160
Speaker 2: two percent. But let's just say you borrow it two percent,

1620
01:28:24,560 --> 01:28:28,280
Speaker 2: which would be a really great uh rate. Your interest

1621
01:28:28,320 --> 01:28:30,439
Speaker 2: would be three thousand dollars a year. You know, So

1622
01:28:30,600 --> 01:28:33,559
Speaker 2: you had, principle, not a huge caring cost, right for

1623
01:28:33,800 --> 01:28:38,000
Speaker 2: given the potential upside of a great so I don't

1624
01:28:38,000 --> 01:28:39,400
Speaker 2: think you have to leave it for thirty I think

1625
01:28:39,400 --> 01:28:42,320
Speaker 2: at seven, I saw a piece of ground and I

1626
01:28:42,360 --> 01:28:46,799
Speaker 2: won't name the architect, but it was a perfectly flat

1627
01:28:47,000 --> 01:28:50,559
Speaker 2: site when he found it, and he did this, you know,

1628
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:55,320
Speaker 2: millions of acres of sand. He moved around and created

1629
01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:58,400
Speaker 2: these great macro movements. Then the crash came in two

1630
01:28:58,439 --> 01:29:05,360
Speaker 2: thousand and eight and the project got killed right and

1631
01:29:05,640 --> 01:29:08,960
Speaker 2: I was with Will Smith from the Outpost Club, and

1632
01:29:09,200 --> 01:29:10,720
Speaker 2: I don't know, I forget what we were doing on

1633
01:29:10,760 --> 01:29:13,639
Speaker 2: the trip, but just I think like we were looking

1634
01:29:13,680 --> 01:29:15,439
Speaker 2: at map quests. I used to see this big blob

1635
01:29:15,479 --> 01:29:17,080
Speaker 2: of sand, so it was like, let's go, let's go

1636
01:29:17,160 --> 01:29:20,439
Speaker 2: do that, you know. So we're trespassing, jumping over gates

1637
01:29:20,439 --> 01:29:22,120
Speaker 2: to get to this big thing sand, and we just

1638
01:29:22,160 --> 01:29:26,800
Speaker 2: see these massive sixty foot sand dunes and this is

1639
01:29:27,080 --> 01:29:30,559
Speaker 2: in a place of the country there's no contour, perfectly flat.

1640
01:29:30,560 --> 01:29:33,240
Speaker 2: We're like, oh my god, this is amazing. And we're

1641
01:29:33,240 --> 01:29:36,600
Speaker 2: walking around and then we ended up figuring out that it,

1642
01:29:36,800 --> 01:29:39,840
Speaker 2: you know, had originally been intended to be a golf course.

1643
01:29:40,000 --> 01:29:42,120
Speaker 2: But this was seven years after the crash, So this

1644
01:29:42,200 --> 01:29:47,599
Speaker 2: was twenty fifteen, and these pines had grown fifteen feet tall,

1645
01:29:48,040 --> 01:29:51,120
Speaker 2: grasses had moved in, you know, nature took over, and

1646
01:29:51,160 --> 01:29:55,160
Speaker 2: then when you have organic matter, then the sand catches

1647
01:29:55,200 --> 01:29:59,519
Speaker 2: that when it blows around. So seven years later, the

1648
01:29:59,560 --> 01:30:01,840
Speaker 2: site was little small. It was probably on one hundred

1649
01:30:01,840 --> 01:30:04,679
Speaker 2: and fifty acres. But if you had three hundred acres

1650
01:30:04,720 --> 01:30:08,439
Speaker 2: of that, I call it a perfect sand site. So

1651
01:30:09,120 --> 01:30:11,280
Speaker 2: if you could buy three hundred acres, buy it for

1652
01:30:11,360 --> 01:30:16,720
Speaker 2: five hundred acre, those carrying costs are if you're successful,

1653
01:30:17,560 --> 01:30:21,920
Speaker 2: small drop in the bucket, right, So you know, now

1654
01:30:21,920 --> 01:30:23,680
Speaker 2: if you're buying a ten thousand acre and if you

1655
01:30:23,720 --> 01:30:27,120
Speaker 2: buy a thousand acres, those are different numbers. But I

1656
01:30:27,120 --> 01:30:31,080
Speaker 2: get yeah, it could work, It could work. Yeah, yeah,

1657
01:30:31,200 --> 01:30:31,799
Speaker 2: that's ah.

1658
01:30:32,600 --> 01:30:34,880
Speaker 1: That's an interesting way to think about it, because then

1659
01:30:34,880 --> 01:30:36,519
Speaker 1: it's not that bad. Then you just got to hire

1660
01:30:36,520 --> 01:30:39,240
Speaker 1: a guy to It's like the McKenzie quote, how do

1661
01:30:39,280 --> 01:30:41,280
Speaker 1: you mess it up? Build a flat? How do you

1662
01:30:41,280 --> 01:30:44,240
Speaker 1: build an interesting grain? Hire the biggest city and tell

1663
01:30:44,280 --> 01:30:45,400
Speaker 1: them to make it flat.

1664
01:30:45,160 --> 01:30:47,720
Speaker 2: And give them a six pack of beer'll make it

1665
01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:50,559
Speaker 2: even better. So actually that's where the real costs would

1666
01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:53,120
Speaker 2: come in, because to make a big mass with sixty

1667
01:30:53,160 --> 01:30:56,479
Speaker 2: foot dunes or forty foot dunes to you know, to move,

1668
01:30:56,800 --> 01:30:58,800
Speaker 2: you know, even if it's just a million yards, that

1669
01:30:58,840 --> 01:31:02,280
Speaker 2: would be a real that would be the cost. And

1670
01:31:02,720 --> 01:31:04,360
Speaker 2: that's you.

1671
01:31:04,360 --> 01:31:06,120
Speaker 1: Don't even have to make it big though, because I

1672
01:31:06,120 --> 01:31:09,080
Speaker 1: think the most interesting stuff is the micro Yeah, how

1673
01:31:09,080 --> 01:31:13,120
Speaker 1: do you balance that with retail? I bet you there

1674
01:31:13,400 --> 01:31:17,080
Speaker 1: there's a shock and awe, especially at San Valley where

1675
01:31:17,120 --> 01:31:20,799
Speaker 1: you have to you don't have an ocean. Yeah, they

1676
01:31:20,880 --> 01:31:25,040
Speaker 1: need dramatics, They need something dramatic versus like a Garden

1677
01:31:25,080 --> 01:31:28,400
Speaker 1: City where the subtle the is.

1678
01:31:28,760 --> 01:31:30,960
Speaker 2: I haven't played Garden City, but Chicago Golf I think

1679
01:31:31,080 --> 01:31:32,920
Speaker 2: is one of the great golf courses on the planet.

1680
01:31:33,040 --> 01:31:37,960
Speaker 2: And if it turned public tomorrow, be successful because everybody would,

1681
01:31:38,320 --> 01:31:41,479
Speaker 2: you know, because it's the top twenty legitimate top twenty

1682
01:31:41,479 --> 01:31:41,880
Speaker 2: golf course.

1683
01:31:41,920 --> 01:31:43,880
Speaker 1: But if it didn't have a name, if we build.

1684
01:31:43,640 --> 01:31:46,960
Speaker 2: It, I don't know. I think I think people would

1685
01:31:47,000 --> 01:31:52,120
Speaker 2: identify it as spectacular, but people would play it and

1686
01:31:52,200 --> 01:31:54,000
Speaker 2: check it off their list and move on. And I

1687
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:55,840
Speaker 2: hate to say that because it's one of my very

1688
01:31:55,880 --> 01:31:58,519
Speaker 2: favorite courses on the planet, but I don't know if

1689
01:31:58,520 --> 01:32:04,880
Speaker 2: it could be a retail home run uh success if

1690
01:32:04,880 --> 01:32:08,000
Speaker 2: we put it next to Sand Valley or Mammoth or

1691
01:32:08,080 --> 01:32:11,799
Speaker 2: Sedge Valley. What we're trying to do a Jim Orbinos.

1692
01:32:11,800 --> 01:32:15,280
Speaker 2: We have this land that has you know, these these

1693
01:32:15,320 --> 01:32:19,240
Speaker 2: great you know, micro contours and then these big dunes

1694
01:32:19,280 --> 01:32:22,240
Speaker 2: that don't really come into play right, and in a sense,

1695
01:32:22,320 --> 01:32:25,519
Speaker 2: I mean Sand Valley and Mammoth are that way. There's

1696
01:32:25,560 --> 01:32:28,960
Speaker 2: just great moving land that they've routed over those huge

1697
01:32:29,040 --> 01:32:31,840
Speaker 2: dunes which are eye candy. They're not they're not really

1698
01:32:31,840 --> 01:32:35,240
Speaker 2: in play, but it's nice. There's they're stunning to look at,

1699
01:32:35,320 --> 01:32:37,760
Speaker 2: and they're inspiring and they make you know.

1700
01:32:38,680 --> 01:32:44,160
Speaker 1: So it's like what David says is that those sand

1701
01:32:44,200 --> 01:32:45,200
Speaker 1: dudes are the ocean.

1702
01:32:45,720 --> 01:32:49,519
Speaker 2: It's our ocean, you know. And you know one thing

1703
01:32:49,560 --> 01:32:53,200
Speaker 2: my dad said early on, uh is Michael, you're selling

1704
01:32:53,280 --> 01:32:57,160
Speaker 2: sand right and and you know it's not just sand,

1705
01:32:57,200 --> 01:33:01,240
Speaker 2: We're selling the savannah. It's beautiful you know, landscape that

1706
01:33:01,240 --> 01:33:05,599
Speaker 2: we're restoring. But yeah, I think you need that. I mean,

1707
01:33:05,600 --> 01:33:11,240
Speaker 2: I'd love to be proved proven wrong. And there are

1708
01:33:11,360 --> 01:33:15,080
Speaker 2: examples of public golf courses that don't have that. I mean,

1709
01:33:16,640 --> 01:33:23,280
Speaker 2: Saint Andrews is wildly successful and doesn't doesn't have that,

1710
01:33:23,360 --> 01:33:27,640
Speaker 2: but it but it is so extraordinarily good and it

1711
01:33:27,680 --> 01:33:30,759
Speaker 2: has a six hundred year history and and a spirit

1712
01:33:30,840 --> 01:33:32,519
Speaker 2: to it. So there's a lot of other reasons why

1713
01:33:32,520 --> 01:33:33,160
Speaker 2: it's successful.

1714
01:33:33,240 --> 01:33:35,800
Speaker 1: I think too. There's something about like the when you

1715
01:33:35,880 --> 01:33:43,280
Speaker 1: have a less inspiring the reality is you're building golf

1716
01:33:43,320 --> 01:33:47,920
Speaker 1: courses that the normal person hopes to play once and

1717
01:33:47,960 --> 01:33:50,400
Speaker 1: if they're lucky, they get to play it more than once.

1718
01:33:51,120 --> 01:33:55,599
Speaker 1: So you have to build golf courses that on first

1719
01:33:55,720 --> 01:33:59,760
Speaker 1: site are like live up to the hype versus like

1720
01:34:00,200 --> 01:34:03,439
Speaker 1: there are golf courses that like, the more and more

1721
01:34:03,560 --> 01:34:07,920
Speaker 1: you play, it becomes more and more endlessly fascinating and

1722
01:34:07,960 --> 01:34:10,160
Speaker 1: the sub that's one of the trick I imagine the

1723
01:34:10,200 --> 01:34:13,680
Speaker 1: tricky things with what you do is that, like the

1724
01:34:13,760 --> 01:34:19,000
Speaker 1: subtle brilliance is lost sometimes on your guests because they

1725
01:34:19,120 --> 01:34:20,719
Speaker 1: might only get a play at once.

1726
01:34:20,880 --> 01:34:28,000
Speaker 2: And yeah, well but hopefully the architect will I guess,

1727
01:34:28,080 --> 01:34:32,080
Speaker 2: capture their imagination and bring them back or you know,

1728
01:34:32,120 --> 01:34:33,960
Speaker 2: I got to play this again tomorrow, or we can

1729
01:34:33,960 --> 01:34:35,840
Speaker 2: come back later this year. We have a lot of

1730
01:34:35,880 --> 01:34:39,080
Speaker 2: repeat business, so we certainly have people who come once.

1731
01:34:39,160 --> 01:34:41,439
Speaker 2: But I think what I think it's a balance between

1732
01:34:41,800 --> 01:34:44,320
Speaker 2: make sure that they love it the first time around.

1733
01:34:44,560 --> 01:34:46,599
Speaker 2: As soon as they walk off the eighteenth te they

1734
01:34:46,600 --> 01:34:50,840
Speaker 2: want to go back to the first tee, but at

1735
01:34:50,840 --> 01:34:53,000
Speaker 2: the same time, make sure that if they spend the

1736
01:34:53,040 --> 01:34:55,639
Speaker 2: next thirty years coming back, they're going to learn something

1737
01:34:55,720 --> 01:34:59,120
Speaker 2: new every time they play it. See something different and

1738
01:34:59,240 --> 01:35:02,560
Speaker 2: continuously learned something about the golf course and about themselves.

1739
01:35:02,840 --> 01:35:05,960
Speaker 2: And I think the best architects and we're lucky to

1740
01:35:06,000 --> 01:35:08,240
Speaker 2: be able to work with these genius architects achieve that.

1741
01:35:08,560 --> 01:35:11,200
Speaker 2: So could they could impress you the first time around,

1742
01:35:12,080 --> 01:35:15,400
Speaker 2: but continue to impress you on your hundredth round. And

1743
01:35:15,520 --> 01:35:17,719
Speaker 2: I think you see that. I mean, stan Valley's younger,

1744
01:35:17,760 --> 01:35:19,920
Speaker 2: but you know, Bandon, we have groups who come back

1745
01:35:19,960 --> 01:35:22,320
Speaker 2: every single year for twenty straight straight years.

1746
01:35:23,760 --> 01:35:26,559
Speaker 1: Were you guys I imagined when you built San Valley?

1747
01:35:26,600 --> 01:35:29,760
Speaker 1: Like the thing I find most amazing is like the

1748
01:35:29,880 --> 01:35:33,200
Speaker 1: ease to get to it from all these major metropolitan

1749
01:35:33,240 --> 01:35:38,960
Speaker 1: cities Minneapolis, Madison, Milwaukee, Chicago. How people can just get

1750
01:35:39,000 --> 01:35:44,439
Speaker 1: there easily. You know in Bandon you got Oregon of Portland,

1751
01:35:44,720 --> 01:35:47,360
Speaker 1: but like that's about Eugene.

1752
01:35:47,080 --> 01:35:49,680
Speaker 2: But we weren't smart enough to recognize that. I mean,

1753
01:35:49,680 --> 01:35:53,360
Speaker 2: we saw it as a remote destination and we're building

1754
01:35:53,400 --> 01:35:55,639
Speaker 2: it as if it would be hard to get to.

1755
01:35:56,840 --> 01:35:59,920
Speaker 2: And as you pointed out, I mean there's fifty five

1756
01:36:00,240 --> 01:36:02,720
Speaker 2: million people within a five hour drive and it's really

1757
01:36:02,760 --> 01:36:04,640
Speaker 2: easy to get to. You know, you jump in your car,

1758
01:36:05,400 --> 01:36:07,519
Speaker 2: you know, it takes three hours and fifteen minutes from

1759
01:36:07,520 --> 01:36:10,160
Speaker 2: the northern suburbs in Chicago, three and a half from downtown,

1760
01:36:10,720 --> 01:36:12,880
Speaker 2: less than three from.

1761
01:36:12,400 --> 01:36:14,559
Speaker 1: So you didn't You didn't even think about that.

1762
01:36:14,720 --> 01:36:18,120
Speaker 2: No, because we've I mean I didn't. My dad didn't.

1763
01:36:18,200 --> 01:36:20,719
Speaker 2: He's never stopped to think about demographics on any golf

1764
01:36:20,760 --> 01:36:22,559
Speaker 2: course he built. So it's like, why I think about

1765
01:36:22,560 --> 01:36:25,679
Speaker 2: it now? It's just not something when we're evaluating sites

1766
01:36:25,680 --> 01:36:27,800
Speaker 2: to build, you know, we don't say does it have

1767
01:36:27,800 --> 01:36:30,240
Speaker 2: an ocean? Does it have sand? Because they're a brilliant architect,

1768
01:36:30,479 --> 01:36:33,840
Speaker 2: does it have people? So we never even it's not

1769
01:36:33,880 --> 01:36:35,360
Speaker 2: even in our language of thought.

1770
01:36:35,720 --> 01:36:38,920
Speaker 1: Has it changed? Has it? Have you thought differently going

1771
01:36:38,960 --> 01:36:41,320
Speaker 1: forward after this Sand Valley experience.

1772
01:36:41,760 --> 01:36:43,920
Speaker 2: I have a little bit on the site that we're

1773
01:36:44,120 --> 01:36:47,200
Speaker 2: trying to get off the ground, which I hope we

1774
01:36:47,200 --> 01:36:50,360
Speaker 2: could talk about more details once it's off the ground.

1775
01:36:50,720 --> 01:36:54,240
Speaker 2: I mean, the reality is we need to stay in business,

1776
01:36:54,640 --> 01:36:57,519
Speaker 2: right and I think people will go to the edge

1777
01:36:57,520 --> 01:37:00,280
Speaker 2: of the earth when there's an ocean, and they'll drive

1778
01:37:00,320 --> 01:37:03,040
Speaker 2: for five hours or two or one. If you have

1779
01:37:03,040 --> 01:37:07,479
Speaker 2: a great site like Sand Valley, there's a site that's

1780
01:37:07,520 --> 01:37:11,960
Speaker 2: within several million people, but then very easy to fly

1781
01:37:12,080 --> 01:37:15,240
Speaker 2: to so it's great because it's close to several million,

1782
01:37:15,400 --> 01:37:19,240
Speaker 2: and it's great because you could fly there. But so

1783
01:37:19,280 --> 01:37:20,599
Speaker 2: it's something I have thought about it. It's not going

1784
01:37:20,680 --> 01:37:23,920
Speaker 2: to affect our our decision to move forward or not.

1785
01:37:24,240 --> 01:37:26,240
Speaker 2: You know, we're all in and can we get off

1786
01:37:26,240 --> 01:37:29,120
Speaker 2: the ground. We'll find out most projects we look at don't.

1787
01:37:29,840 --> 01:37:32,519
Speaker 2: But thought about it, and I think you need to

1788
01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:35,760
Speaker 2: go in assuming that every site's can be hard to

1789
01:37:35,760 --> 01:37:38,360
Speaker 2: get to. There's only three million people in the city. God,

1790
01:37:38,400 --> 01:37:39,800
Speaker 2: how we're going to get them here? That's better be

1791
01:37:39,840 --> 01:37:42,680
Speaker 2: really good. Right as soon as we start taking our

1792
01:37:43,240 --> 01:37:45,880
Speaker 2: our guests for granted, you know, then we're going to fail.

1793
01:37:46,040 --> 01:37:48,759
Speaker 2: So we have to assume that it's going to be brutal.

1794
01:37:48,800 --> 01:37:51,120
Speaker 2: Five hour drive, that's a long drive. Most of our

1795
01:37:51,120 --> 01:37:53,080
Speaker 2: guests come from less than five hours. Let's say three

1796
01:37:53,080 --> 01:37:55,920
Speaker 2: hour drive. That's a long drive. God, we've got to

1797
01:37:56,040 --> 01:37:58,680
Speaker 2: really make this great. We just have to. We have

1798
01:37:58,720 --> 01:38:02,799
Speaker 2: to assume that so that their expectations are exceeded when

1799
01:38:02,840 --> 01:38:04,680
Speaker 2: they get there. And then if it turns out that

1800
01:38:04,720 --> 01:38:08,879
Speaker 2: they're saying, oh, it's easy, then great. But let's assume

1801
01:38:08,960 --> 01:38:11,519
Speaker 2: that they're going to say what they say when they

1802
01:38:11,520 --> 01:38:13,439
Speaker 2: go to Bandon. It's hard to get here, but it's

1803
01:38:13,439 --> 01:38:17,360
Speaker 2: worth every minute, right because because of the golf and

1804
01:38:18,080 --> 01:38:20,920
Speaker 2: the people of the service, and you know, the spirit

1805
01:38:21,000 --> 01:38:21,439
Speaker 2: of the place.

1806
01:38:22,240 --> 01:38:24,639
Speaker 1: That makes sense. It is customer first product.

1807
01:38:24,840 --> 01:38:27,599
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, product product to serve the customer.

1808
01:38:27,760 --> 01:38:31,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's all right, you've been you know, we

1809
01:38:32,120 --> 01:38:34,800
Speaker 1: just scratch the surface. This could be ten hours, so

1810
01:38:34,800 --> 01:38:36,840
Speaker 1: we'll just do it again sometimes.

1811
01:38:36,360 --> 01:38:38,680
Speaker 2: That'd be awesome. I always love our conversations. It was

1812
01:38:38,680 --> 01:38:40,960
Speaker 2: fun to do it on the pod. Thanks for inviting

1813
01:38:41,000 --> 01:38:41,200
Speaker 2: me on.

1814
01:38:41,479 --> 01:38:44,320
Speaker 1: I appreciate you coming on and we'll talk soon.

1815
01:38:44,720 --> 01:38:46,360
Speaker 2: Looking forward to it. Thanks to any