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Speaker 1: So the big question is this, how do investors like

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Speaker 1: us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly,

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Speaker 1: the right people that give us the tools and information

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Speaker 1: we need to make informed and educated decisions to have success.

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Speaker 1: That is the question, and this podcast will give us

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Speaker 1: the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get

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Speaker 1: this started. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the

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Speaker 1: Market Disruptors podcast. Today I am sitting down with Philip Bonello,

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Speaker 1: previously with Ikey Guy Fund. He has been doing research

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Speaker 1: into bitcoin and crypto for a number of years and

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Speaker 1: has some amazing insights from all the research that he's done.

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Speaker 1: And today we dig into a paper, a investment thesis

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Speaker 1: that he's put together based off of the book The

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Speaker 1: Sovereign Individual. If you haven't read the book, I highly

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Speaker 1: recommend it, but today we'll give you the cliff notes

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Speaker 1: of it. But there's three points that the book makes

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Speaker 1: and he makes into this investment thesis, which is well,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna spoil it for you're gonna have to

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Speaker 1: pay attention, but we get into some great talks. The

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Speaker 1: book is amazing. It was written in seven on the

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Speaker 1: internet was just in its early stages, and it's amazing

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Speaker 1: how prophetic this book is and all the things that

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Speaker 1: are coming coming to fruition today. It seems like the

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Speaker 1: book was just recently written. So anyway, it's a great conversation.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna learn a lot about what this technology is doing,

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Speaker 1: the shift that's happening in the world, the behavior changes

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Speaker 1: that are happening right now, and what the world, you know,

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Speaker 1: the global macrof picture of the world is doing right

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Speaker 1: now to really push the adoption of the branding technology.

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Speaker 1: A great conversation, a great book, and let's just go

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Speaker 1: ahead and just jump right into it. Everyone. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Market Disruptors Podcast Today. I am joined by Philip Vonello.

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Speaker 1: He has previously had a research over at Ikey. Guy

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Speaker 1: has been researching crypto assets and bitcoin um and has

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Speaker 1: some really good insights. He's written a paper recently about

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Speaker 1: a book on the sovereign individual and kind of an

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Speaker 1: investment thesis around that which was was amazing, kind of

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Speaker 1: rock the world. Everyone's been talking about it, and so

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Speaker 1: I wanted to have him on to discuss that. I'm

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Speaker 1: super excited. Welcome Philip, Hey, thanks Mark, thanks for having me. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So um, you know, we've we've we've had the privilege

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Speaker 1: to talk a little bit. I read your paper, Um, so,

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Speaker 1: lots of stuff to dig into. But before we do that,

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Speaker 1: maybe just kind of fill us in a little bit

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Speaker 1: on what you've been working on and kind of where

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Speaker 1: you're at right now. Yeah. So, like you said, I

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Speaker 1: worked in sorry for a little bit, uh than with

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Speaker 1: head research. I guy. Recently, I've just been taking some

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Speaker 1: time off exploring different kind of avenues. And one of

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Speaker 1: the things that I've been digging into a bunch of

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Speaker 1: just kind of a worldview. So, as you mentioned, I

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Speaker 1: recently published kind of an investment thesis based on the

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Speaker 1: book The Sovereign Individual, which is a really trucient book

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Speaker 1: written in I'm almost embarrassed to say that I read

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Speaker 1: it recently because it's such a a lot of a

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Speaker 1: lot of people in the bigcoin space really love The

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Speaker 1: Sovereign Individual the book, and it really was an eye

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Speaker 1: opener for me. Yeah. So the last couple of years

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Speaker 1: you've been doing research, Um, tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the kind of research that you've been doing though. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So in two thousand and eighteen, I really dug in

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Speaker 1: and tried to understand why any of these crypto assets

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Speaker 1: were valuable. So what that kind of led me to

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Speaker 1: is building out a series of different frameworks. So essentially

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Speaker 1: the way that I look at the entire crypto asset

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Speaker 1: world is through the ones of productive assets and non

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Speaker 1: productive assets. So you can think think of non productive

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Speaker 1: assets as something like bitcoin. By holding X, you don't

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Speaker 1: get any any why there's no exhougenists cash flow, right, um,

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Speaker 1: similar to something like gold. Uh. And then in the

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Speaker 1: productive asset category, if you hold X, you get why right,

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Speaker 1: there's an exhaugenists cash flow coming into the system. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Something you know that's something like Auger, right, where with

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Speaker 1: Auger you can you can stake rep and you're going

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Speaker 1: to get a certain amount of and returned to the

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Speaker 1: proportion of REP that you stay. So that really led

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Speaker 1: me to build out a series of valuation models. It

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Speaker 1: really helped frame my thinking for the entire space. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I kind of took that thinking and evaluated the

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Speaker 1: broader ecosystem and um kind of how value accruise in

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Speaker 1: the in the whole system. In the crypto stack, I

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Speaker 1: would say, so you really dug into these different assets

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Speaker 1: and kind of classified them into productive and nonproductive. Um.

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Speaker 1: But then were you also kind of looking at UM.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like you were also looking at maybe like

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Speaker 1: the act the macro economic picture as well, to see

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Speaker 1: where do these new assets, where do they fit into

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Speaker 1: the big picture of kind of where the world's at. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So a lot of what we did I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about the macro perspective, given what's going on in the

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Speaker 1: world right now, what is the demand for these crypto assets? Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know bigcoin sets that are really pretty interesting space,

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Speaker 1: and that it's both a risk asset but it's trying

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Speaker 1: to be this reserve asset. I think the rest of

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Speaker 1: crypto is pretty solidly and kind of the risk asset

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Speaker 1: category M and then and then taking a step deeper,

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Speaker 1: it's okay, based on that macro perspective, what is the

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Speaker 1: crypto macro looking like right now? And broadly the crypto

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Speaker 1: macro a lot of time is influenced by Bitcoin, and

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Speaker 1: so we use a lot of enchain metrics to kind

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Speaker 1: of study cycle UM and and how we think all

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Speaker 1: coins are going to react to the bigcoin cycle and

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Speaker 1: how bigcoin is gonna react and so on and so forth.

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Speaker 1: And then and then the final level was digging deeper

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Speaker 1: into each one of the projects, analyzing the product that

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Speaker 1: each one of them had, and then the asset that

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Speaker 1: each one of those had with relation to the product. Um.

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Speaker 1: Like I said, a lot of these are nonproductive assets,

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Speaker 1: and in our view, there's not really a link between

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Speaker 1: that non productive asset, uh, and I guess you know

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Speaker 1: the product. Yeah, yeah. I I like looking at the

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Speaker 1: macro view, especially when you're dealing with like technology like this,

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Speaker 1: because it gives you I I kind of feel like

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Speaker 1: the bigger picture is almost easier to see than the

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Speaker 1: small picture. Like if someone says, hey, Mark and I

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Speaker 1: get asked us all the time, like where's bitcoin going

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Speaker 1: to be in a week or in a month, And

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't really know, but I kind of

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Speaker 1: have a feeling of where it's going to be in

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Speaker 1: five years from now. Um And and a lot of

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Speaker 1: times I think about it like you watch one of

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Speaker 1: those movies where people go back in you know, in

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Speaker 1: a time machine, and if they touched one little thing

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Speaker 1: and then they go back to the future, it makes

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Speaker 1: this massive impact. And that's kind of like we can

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Speaker 1: see these little things happening today that have that massive impact.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty cool. UM. So thanks for giving us that

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Speaker 1: background I think it's important to to get your perspective

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Speaker 1: as we move into this. But so, so you wrote

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Speaker 1: this kind of investment thesis off this book The Sovereign

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Speaker 1: Individual Um, which as you said, is kind of big

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Speaker 1: in the in the in the bitcoin space, maybe because

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Speaker 1: it was for telling of what was going to happen, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean the book was written there wasn't really I mean,

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Speaker 1: the Internet was a round, but it wasn't even really

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Speaker 1: hadn't even really taken hold yet. So for them to

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Speaker 1: write this book at that time was a pretty big,

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Speaker 1: pretty big deal. It was like they did a good job.

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Speaker 1: So kind of give us the overview of what the

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Speaker 1: books about and maybe your investment thesis you pulled out

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Speaker 1: of it. Yeah. So, I mean one of the things

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Speaker 1: that's that's really interesting about the book is that they

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Speaker 1: do a pretty good job of predicting bitcoin. You know,

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Speaker 1: they think that there's going to be a currency that's

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Speaker 1: backed by gold. So they're a little off in that respect,

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Speaker 1: but but still pretty incredible insight. I Mean, broadly, what

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Speaker 1: The Sovereign Individual talks about is the logical violence, uh,

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Speaker 1: and how that has really affected big trends throughout history,

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Speaker 1: so especially starting with kind of the agricultural movement. With

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Speaker 1: our with humans moved to agriculture, we started to have

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Speaker 1: their mergence of personal property, and with their emergence of

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Speaker 1: personal property, violence at scale uh really became valuable. So

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Speaker 1: we we saw the rise of these different types of

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Speaker 1: bureaucratic entities, these different kind of organizations to really uh

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Speaker 1: ah provide protection for groups of individuals who needed that protection. Right.

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Speaker 1: And and then as we move into the information age,

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Speaker 1: a lot of that stuff gets turned on its head. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So there's there's reduced information asymmetry. Uh, you know, there's

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Speaker 1: the potential for money that is outside the control of

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Speaker 1: a central government. And then encryption completely changes the logic

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Speaker 1: of violence and the way that individuals can protect themselves.

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Speaker 1: So for the first time, really, um, an individual can

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Speaker 1: hold let's say a billion dollars and and there there

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Speaker 1: the way that they protect that billion dollars is just

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Speaker 1: about as good as the way that the US government

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Speaker 1: would protect that billion dollars. Right. Encryption decreases the cost

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Speaker 1: of protection and decrease. It also decreases the leverage that

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Speaker 1: violence has on people. Yeah. Yeah, So let's let's unpack

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Speaker 1: that a little bit. So you talk about information technology.

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Speaker 1: So the Internet was information technology, right, so decentralized information.

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Speaker 1: So previous to the Internet, Um, information you said had

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Speaker 1: eight what do you call it? Asymmetric information? I forget

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Speaker 1: to work just there's uh information asymmetry. Right, So certain

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Speaker 1: certain organizations have control over all this information and they

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Speaker 1: distributed only to their members and think about about it

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Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, and so information was controlled and really

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Speaker 1: you could chase this all the way back to you know,

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Speaker 1: Martin Luther times in in Europe and whatever, the four

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Speaker 1: dreds where the church kind of controlled the scripture and

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Speaker 1: it wasn't until the printing press came out that then

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Speaker 1: it was able to spread that information. And that's what

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Speaker 1: broke the power at the church had over and uh

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Speaker 1: and the Internet has taken that a step further, right,

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Speaker 1: So we have kind of leveled the plane field on information. YEA, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's exactly that's exactly right. Um, I mean yeah, sorry,

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Speaker 1: go ahead, Well I was gonna say so because the

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Speaker 1: information is now spread out and across borders, across the globe.

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Speaker 1: You made the point, right, it's broken down the jurisdictional barriers.

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Speaker 1: So now instead of like one country that kind of

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Speaker 1: has all the information Now it's kind of starting to

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Speaker 1: be global. Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's um, that's

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest drivers to this, this broader trend.

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Speaker 1: Everyone has access to the same information, so everyone can

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Speaker 1: be educated in relatively the same way. And when everyone

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Speaker 1: can be educated in the same way, then everyone can

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Speaker 1: do mostly the same jobs, jobs that used to be

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Speaker 1: considered skill to work. Right, And so when you think

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Speaker 1: about kind of mean reversion, uh, the people who used

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Speaker 1: to do that skilled work in the developed countries are

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Speaker 1: are used to these high wages, but now they're being

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Speaker 1: undercut by people who can provide those those same that

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Speaker 1: same level of work for potentially a quarter of the

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Speaker 1: quarter of the cost, right, And so it seems relatively inevitable,

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Speaker 1: inevitable that there's going to be this mean reversion from

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Speaker 1: both the developed countries and the developing countries. And so

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Speaker 1: I think that was that was one of the key

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Speaker 1: insights that I took away from the book m just

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Speaker 1: this idea of decreasing information asymmetry. There's a decreasing value

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Speaker 1: to location, so the exit costs are are much easier.

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Speaker 1: You know, let's let's say, uh, my wages personally are

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Speaker 1: are going down. I can no longer afford to live

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Speaker 1: in l A, So I have to go to a

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Speaker 1: different jurisdiction, a jurisdiction that might be more business friendly. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They have lower taxes, um. You know, they have subsidies

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Speaker 1: for starting up entrepreneurial ventures, um and and and it's

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Speaker 1: really easy to do that because I can run I

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Speaker 1: can run my business from anywhere in the world. We're

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Speaker 1: we're previously you know. Uh, there's there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: value in being in the central locations. And we haven't

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Speaker 1: quite seen that shift fully yet, but you can see

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Speaker 1: the beginnings of it. I mean it's it's definitely not

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Speaker 1: fully shifted, but we've definitely seen the beginnings of it.

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Speaker 1: What's interesting is, at least I don't know, I haven't

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Speaker 1: fact checked it, but a decade ago maybe there's an

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Speaker 1: author Daniel Pink He wrote a book called A Whole

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Speaker 1: New Mind, And basically the point that he made in

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Speaker 1: the book is that, um, the whole world has been

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Speaker 1: set up for technical roles. College teaches people technical, SA

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Speaker 1: t s are technical. All the jobs were technical, right, engineers, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: But because of the Internet, as you're saying, UM, now

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Speaker 1: it's taken technical roles and made them commodities. And so

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Speaker 1: now being the engineer or whatever, the codeer, the developer

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Speaker 1: is not where you want to be because now that's

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Speaker 1: been commoditized, right, I can hire does dozen them over

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Speaker 1: in New Delhi or whatever. And so he calls it

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Speaker 1: a whole new mind because we kind of have a

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Speaker 1: creative side and analytical side of the brain supposedly, And

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Speaker 1: he said, in order to be successful in this new age,

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Speaker 1: you have to use the creative side of your brain.

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Speaker 1: And instead of being like if you think of like

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Speaker 1: an orchestra, instead of being the best troumbone player, the

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Speaker 1: best horn player, you're the conductor. And I can't play

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Speaker 1: the music better than any of those people, but I

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Speaker 1: can make them make beautiful music together. Yep. And and

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Speaker 1: and those people today have more leverage than ever before. Right,

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Speaker 1: So uh there's creative people, yeah, the creative people. Right.

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Speaker 1: So essentially, entrepreneurs and investors have more leverage than they

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Speaker 1: ever had before because, uh, they can be really creative.

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Speaker 1: They can coordinate all these resources while they're sitting in

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Speaker 1: the living room. Right. Um. On the flip side of that,

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Speaker 1: workers have more competition than than ever before. So uh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, work, work, works, smart, not hard, you know,

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Speaker 1: there maybe something something to that. Yeah, well, the school

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Speaker 1: systems definitely have not kept up with the with the

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Speaker 1: changes of technology, and so there's still training everyone to

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Speaker 1: be technical, technical, technical, but we've gone to a creative

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Speaker 1: world and so um, there's a there's a big challenge there,

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Speaker 1: which we'll get into. I know, you start talking a

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Speaker 1: lot about education, and that's the part that I'm pretty

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Speaker 1: passionate about. It's interesting though, you know when you look

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Speaker 1: at what's going on in the world today with you know,

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Speaker 1: all over the world right now, right from Iran and

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Speaker 1: Lebanon and Hong Kong, especially Hong Kong, but Chile, and

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Speaker 1: I mean you name it right, it's erupting and especially

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Speaker 1: like in Hong Kong. Um but it, as you called it,

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Speaker 1: borderless information reduces jurisdictional barriers and and I find it

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Speaker 1: like hard to believe that in this world today a

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Speaker 1: country can still own you, Yeah, like your own you're

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Speaker 1: you're basically slave, right, You're owned by the country. And

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Speaker 1: how in the US, right half of my wages go

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Speaker 1: to the government and I can't leave. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: I think that's a cheat problem. I think there are

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Speaker 1: some technical challenges to that. Right, our systems are set

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Speaker 1: up in a way that we inherently give over our

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Speaker 1: data when when we use a given application. Um. But

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Speaker 1: like what you were talking about as far as high taxation,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be really interesting interesting in the coming years

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Speaker 1: with kind of the wealth tax, you know, the whole

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Speaker 1: movement of tax the billionaires, um, and potential for something

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Speaker 1: like m M T. Right, Really wealthy people especially will

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Speaker 1: probably be leading the charge of Okay, how do I

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Speaker 1: protect my well here? Um? I might have to either

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Speaker 1: protect it from seizure or if they're protected from inflation, right,

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Speaker 1: And you know, the coins are pretty pretty interesting tool

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Speaker 1: for that. If you look at how um, you know,

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Speaker 1: life has evolved, um, I mean not since the beginning,

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Speaker 1: but just you know, you look at like Game of

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Speaker 1: Thrones or whatever, right, and it's just like little tribes

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Speaker 1: and the one would attack the other one to see

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Speaker 1: older resources. And so you know, you kind of had

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Speaker 1: to get these like kingdoms which then became countries, and

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Speaker 1: still countries were taken over the countries to steal their resources.

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Speaker 1: But now moving into like this more information age, which

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Speaker 1: I guess we'll get to like a near encryption part,

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Speaker 1: which is now we can protect our resources in a

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Speaker 1: completely different way, which means the threats that we have

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Speaker 1: are not the same as they always have. Like someone

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Speaker 1: can't just come take over my house because my assets

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Speaker 1: aren't or my you know, it's not in my house, right,

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Speaker 1: it's like digital or whatever. Yeah, and you know, there

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Speaker 1: there are still levers to be pulled in the physical world.

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Speaker 1: You can still be attacked physically, still be killed, right, Um,

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Speaker 1: but more and more assets are outside of the purview

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Speaker 1: of of kind of government government interference, outside of just

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Speaker 1: physical coercion. I and and that that's a really interesting trend. Yeah. Yeah, So, um,

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Speaker 1: while I see the information being uh this kind of

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Speaker 1: commercial or more or list kind of jurisdictional thing dropping,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be interesting to see how that plays out. Um.

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Speaker 1: I know you quoted um Jil Carlson and she had

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Speaker 1: talked about how the Internet grew up and it and

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Speaker 1: it created this borderless um you know, mind share, information share,

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Speaker 1: but financials got left behind. And it reminded me of

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Speaker 1: a story I saw Eric Vorhees right a while ago

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Speaker 1: where he kind of talked about, imagine if we had

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Speaker 1: this internet and instead of this Internet, that connected the

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Speaker 1: whole world and we all shared information. Imagine if we

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Speaker 1: each had our own little regional internet and we just

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Speaker 1: had the United States Internet and there was a China Internet. Well,

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Speaker 1: I guess there was a China Internet, but you know,

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Speaker 1: each country had their own little internet, and how different

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Speaker 1: it would be. And then he made the point, well, okay,

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Speaker 1: now that you've imagine that, well, that's exactly how money works.

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Speaker 1: And so um. Anyway, it's interesting to to kind of

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Speaker 1: look back and see how the information has been decentralized

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Speaker 1: and how hopefully money's next there. Yeah, which takes us

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Speaker 1: to the second point of your paper, which was that

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Speaker 1: or from the book, which is the creation of non

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Speaker 1: sovereign digital money. And I guess that kind of creates

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Speaker 1: competition with the money, which once we have competition with

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Speaker 1: the money, then you said, it decreases the power of

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Speaker 1: inflation and taxation. Yeah, and and so so take take

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Speaker 1: a quick step back. You know, when I started thinking

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Speaker 1: about this thesis broadly, I looked at it through uh

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Speaker 1: kind of sources of demand and I use acquired defend

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Speaker 1: bond learn and feel as kind of the sources there

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Speaker 1: and what are what are those? Those are? Those are

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Speaker 1: like the five human motivations. Yeah, and you know, we

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Speaker 1: can like it's up for debate what what are the

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Speaker 1: primary human motivations? But I, uh, we we know for

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Speaker 1: sure greed and fear right to at least yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, so acquired defend. But I think there you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a there definitely is an inherent desire to learn,

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Speaker 1: there's a there's a design are to be loved, So

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Speaker 1: that's kind of the bonding. And I think there is

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Speaker 1: a desire to feel or to escape right from from

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Speaker 1: your mind or what have you. And so U four

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Speaker 1: of those are borrowed from the book Driven, which which

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Speaker 1: talks about it in a different context. But I the

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Speaker 1: reason I wanted to look at things, uh through the

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Speaker 1: lens of demand is because I really like the way

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Speaker 1: that Jeff Bezos framed uh. You know, he he talked

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Speaker 1: about people ask them all the time what's changed or

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Speaker 1: what's going to change in ten years, and he always says, well,

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Speaker 1: it's a lot easier to look at what's not going

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Speaker 1: to change, right, And I think broadly you can look

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Speaker 1: at human motivations and how they're not going to change. Um.

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Speaker 1: But what's interesting in the crypto space is that I

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Speaker 1: think there is a behavior change that needs to happen, right,

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Speaker 1: So we're very much focused on, uh, this idea of

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Speaker 1: acquire agreed right now, and to an extent, have ignored

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Speaker 1: kind of our defensive practices. We outsource, we outsource protection.

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Speaker 1: And this is evident in and the way that we

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Speaker 1: use applications today because all like Facebook has all of

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Speaker 1: our data, Google has all of our data. Right. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's just the way that it's set up. And people

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Speaker 1: people brought like pretty much don't care. So one of

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Speaker 1: the trends that I see is is as it um

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Speaker 1: is that we'll see this, uh, this motivation of defend,

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Speaker 1: this need for defensive technologies to increase, right, and so

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Speaker 1: so the idea of digital money is kind of a

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Speaker 1: defensive technology. People don't really care about it until they

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Speaker 1: have to. You ask most people right now, they say, oh,

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Speaker 1: the U S dollars. Fine, it's it's the US dollar, right.

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Speaker 1: But I think there's all different levels to that, right.

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Speaker 1: So I work with all types of investors and go

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Speaker 1: through training stuff. And it's like in the beginning, when

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Speaker 1: you're young and you have and you don't have much money,

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Speaker 1: you're just risky, right, You're greedy, I need to get

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Speaker 1: more money. But as you get older and you have money,

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Speaker 1: than it switches and now you have to protect that money.

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Speaker 1: Were like, you're young and single and you're thinking about yourself. Well,

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Speaker 1: now I'm a father and I have kids, and like,

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Speaker 1: you're better to be sure I'm ready to protect that family. Right. So,

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Speaker 1: I think our motivations as humans are the same, but

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Speaker 1: they change as we go through life. Maybe yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that that's definitely possible. And uh, I think it's probably

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Speaker 1: an environmentally dependent um you know, some someone someone in

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Speaker 1: Venezuela is definitely a lot more sensitive to the idea

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Speaker 1: of inflation than someone in uh from the US. Um

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Speaker 1: And and I think I think that those environmental factors

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Speaker 1: definitely affect the demands our motivations. So so so that's

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Speaker 1: kind of what I what I argue in the paper

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Speaker 1: that we have this technology, we have the ability to

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Speaker 1: opt out of these systems. We understand the supply right,

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Speaker 1: twenty one million bitcoin. That's a great narrative, but I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people are you know, they're they're

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Speaker 1: arguing about demand. Where is the demand going to come from?

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Speaker 1: And uh, as we see more capital controls, as we

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Speaker 1: see increase inflation, as we see increased taxation, then the

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Speaker 1: demand for an asset like bitcoin will increase. And with that,

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Speaker 1: it's also the idea of kind of these self sovereign

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Speaker 1: and technologies. So right now bitcoin is firmly speculation right exchanges, funds,

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Speaker 1: data providers, rugrad services, that's where all of the investment

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Speaker 1: is going. There was this idea of decentralized exchanges. Um,

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Speaker 1: they haven't gained a whole lot of adoption, h but

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Speaker 1: I think that's gonna be. They're going to be very

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Speaker 1: important at some point. At some point. Uh, self sovereign

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Speaker 1: custody is going to be very important at some point,

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Speaker 1: Like the user experience for custody has to improve. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think you made You made the point that those

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Speaker 1: things emerge when there's a need, and that's kind of

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Speaker 1: capitalism and its best right. So it's like, um, there

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Speaker 1: is starting to be a need for having a non

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Speaker 1: sovereign digital money. And as you said, right in the

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Speaker 1: US people don't see that, but in Venezuela or you know,

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Speaker 1: Lebanon or Iran, when the bank's just open back up

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Speaker 1: after whatever a month, like they have a need for that. Um,

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Speaker 1: the essentialized exchanges. We haven't really seen a need for that,

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Speaker 1: but once we see more increased you know, regulatory crackdowns,

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Speaker 1: there will be a need for it. And then and

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Speaker 1: then my hope anyway is that we'll we'll see that

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Speaker 1: start to pop up again. Yeah. And and in some ways,

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Speaker 1: these fully decentralized systems UH aren't necessarily the way to go.

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Speaker 1: You know, like you look at bit macs, you look

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Speaker 1: at finance, you look at usd T. They aren't wholly

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Speaker 1: immutable or not centership resistance or completely centership resist and

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00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: you're still depending on a third party, right, But they've

428
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 1: been able to kind of skirt regulations and they've been

429
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 1: extremely successful, you know, almost because of that. Yeah. But

430
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 1: if we're sticking on the back to point number two,

431
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,959
Speaker 1: So we talked about point number one was the information

432
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 1: reducing the jurisdictional barriers. Number two was creation of non

433
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: sovereign digital money um and and I think you're talking

434
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,439
Speaker 1: about inflict the the sovereign individual. The information technology is

435
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 1: helping to push that digital money obviously because it's built

436
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: off of the Internet. UM and it's decreasing the power

437
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: of inflation. So right now, the governments around the world,

438
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 1: including United States are are pushing inflation on us right there,

439
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: stealing the value of our money. So that is a

440
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 1: reason that's causing this creation of this non sovereign money.

441
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: And yeah, and and I guess a competition for money,

442
00:24:54,720 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 1: right definitely. And I think right now, the logical conclusion

443
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 1: there is Okay, well, I'm gonna buy gold rum. But

444
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: but then, um, you think about transporting golden, You think

445
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: about the ability for someone to seize your gold. You

446
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: think about the ability for something for you to store,

447
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: let's say a couple of billion dollars for the gold.

448
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: You know. Talking about these really wealthy people, I think

449
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: that's where the trend is probably going to start because

450
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: they see these problems. They'll see these problems before everybody else.

451
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: And and that's where we'll see the difference, right in

452
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: this the reason for the center to persistence and um,

453
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: and the more the more that governments inflate their money

454
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 1: and sees people's money, the more they're going to be

455
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: pushing people to options like this, right yeah, absolutely, Yeah,

456
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 1: it's kind of unstoppable. I think. I guess we just

457
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: have to ask ourselves to the questions, do we think

458
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: governments will magically wake up and be fiscally responsible at

459
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: some point or will they continue to push it as

460
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,199
Speaker 1: far as they can push it. And again, going back

461
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 1: to human motivation, I think we know the answer, right, yeah, yeah,

462
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: you know, the these systems are set up in a

463
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 1: way that they want to get real people. The people

464
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 1: in power want to get reelected. The easiest way for

465
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 1: them to get reelected is for their economies to do well.

466
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,880
Speaker 1: For their economy to do well, they should probably print

467
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: more money so that the equities markets continue to boom. Yeah.

468
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: So the third final point was the encryption. That encryption

469
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 1: produces the cost of protection um and decreases the leverage

470
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,439
Speaker 1: of violence scale. And we touched on that um. But

471
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 1: I guess when you add all that together, I mean,

472
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: it's the encryption you're saying, is is protection for us?

473
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: And I guess with point number one about information, So

474
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: we could have information that could be protected, uh and

475
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 1: and secret or private, but then also then money we

476
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: can create our money, save our money and then encrypted

477
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: all I mean going to that point yeah and um

478
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: so so yeah, we we have the ability currently to

479
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: send information around the world in in an instant but

480
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 1: like you mentioned, there there are there is the ability

481
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: to censor a lot of that a lot of that information, right,

482
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: and so that's where this idea of kind of these

483
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: crypto applications comes in. And my as a hobby kind

484
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: of brought this idea of dissident technology, which I think

485
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: is as as an elegant way to describe the value

486
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: proposition of crypto more broadly, um, it's it's it's something

487
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: this whole movement is really to be able to exist

488
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 1: outside of the purview of government protection. It's kind of

489
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: saying we can protect ourselves now, let us and and so,

490
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: and encryption is is a really interesting thing because it

491
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: makes it easier. It makes it easier for me to

492
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: protect myself just as and pretty much just as easily

493
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 1: as a large corporation, um can protect themselves. And then

494
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: also what do you think about a large corporation versus

495
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 1: an individual. A large corporation is a honeypot, right, And

496
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: if you're if you're keeping your assets with that with

497
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: that organization, that corporation, their their encryption probably isn't any

498
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: better than encryption that you have available. Um. So, so

499
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,360
Speaker 1: you look at the reward for attacking that organization versus

500
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: the reward for attacking the individual and it it tilts that,

501
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: it tilts that scale. Yeah, and we see it happen

502
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: all the time, right target and experience, and they're all

503
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,479
Speaker 1: getting hacked. The n s A was hacked, and when

504
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 1: they hacked the n s A, they stole their hacking software,

505
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: right because they are those honeypots. And it's kind of

506
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: like if if you would go rob a bank that

507
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: had a billion dollars, or would you go rob a

508
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: billion banks that had one dollar each? Yeah exactly, it's

509
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: like that that so you but you talk about how

510
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: like as individuals have more control of their property than

511
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: we have more need to defend that property, which I

512
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: kind of made like as I get more money or

513
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: as I get a family, and how we've been outsourcing that.

514
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: And I think back to kind of like how you know,

515
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: the banking system started, so you know whatever the eighteen hundreds.

516
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: Previous to the eighteen hundreds, I would just store my

517
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: gold in the ground somewhere or whatever um and then

518
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: eventually I could just put it in a bank and

519
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: then that bank would be I'd be outsourcing the security

520
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: right to that bank. So maybe it's only been a

521
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: couple of hundred years we've been doing that. I mean,

522
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: do you see that being this big behavior change, you

523
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: think that that's gonna have to be made. Yeah, So

524
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I think it's really Yeah, it's

525
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: been since really the agricultural revolution, since the emergence of

526
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: personal property, that we've kind of had this outsourcing and

527
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: protection because you know, like the biggest guy in town,

528
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: the most powerful guy in town, that's the person who

529
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: who you can hire to protect your assets, right, and

530
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: he gets some of his guys around, and now he

531
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: has this little army and you pay, you pay that

532
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: leader to protect you. Right. And that that in in

533
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: in different forms and fashions, has kind of persisted. Um.

534
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: And now with the idea of this dissident technology crypto broadly,

535
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 1: I there are two there are two levers that people

536
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: kind of think about. I think in the crypto world

537
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: it's like cost efficiencies and um, it's the idea that Okay,

538
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: there's no middleman anymore, and so now there's decreased rent

539
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: seeking and and I can buy that to a certain extent. Right,

540
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: some some of the costs will come down, but there

541
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: there still is rent seeking on the part of someone

542
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: within the or some people within the system. Right, Um,

543
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: and the the efficiency isn't that, it's not that great.

544
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: What is a big kind of like the ten Ex

545
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: improvement is the defensibility of these systems. And and that's

546
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: where I think, Uh, that's where I think we need

547
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: to see demand. And right now we're everyone in cryptos

548
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: like why aren't people adopting any of these things? And

549
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: I think it's just it's just to demand issue. Right, Um,

550
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: there hasn't there hasn't been enough ruined to to demand

551
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: these type of protective services. Um, even though we have

552
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: had that Equifax, you know, equifacts hack, Facebook, Yahoo, like

553
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: all all of these big all of these big hacks

554
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 1: and hum, these large data holders really mishandling our our property,

555
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: right um. And and so we're gonna have to see

556
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: a shift of behavior from kind of this this motivation

557
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: of acquired to this motivation to defend your your digital

558
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: assets as as we increasingly have more digital assets. Yeah.

559
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: But when you talk about dissident tech, maybe just unpacked

560
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: that what are what are you talking about like that

561
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: as kind of like a whole or maybe as that

562
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: can asset Yeah, I'm talking about both like things that

563
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: can resist censorship and things that are generally anti fragile,

564
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: so UM and like fight against the government or to

565
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: a certain extent that you know, that's one of the

566
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: that's one of the use cases. But it's also um

567
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: like you think about like mesh networking versus some of

568
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: the r I s p s currently there. These are

569
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: central points of failure and they're easy, they're they're outdated

570
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: in many respects, and they're easy to take down. UM.

571
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: Whereas if if you can create these these networks that

572
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: are really resilient, and even better than resilient, they're anti

573
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: fragile as people try to attack them, you're making them

574
00:32:54,240 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: stronger something something really like like bitcoin. Uh, that's that's

575
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: kind of the holy grail, and I think that's what

576
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: we're starting to work towards. But we're starting to see, yeah,

577
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: very really does for for those that don't know exactly

578
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: what he was just talking about. So what we're seeing

579
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: like in Iran right now is they took down the internet. Uh,

580
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: the Internet went down in Iran because they don't want

581
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: them communicating, or or even in Hong Kong, we don't

582
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: want the protesters communicating, and so they have mess networks,

583
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 1: which basically allow phones to communicate one by one and

584
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: kind of create their own network that can't be taken down.

585
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: And so, um, I mean I think that that this

586
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: type of technology is in a direct response to that

587
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: stuff that's that's happening. Um, you made a quote about, um,

588
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: the balance of the lion and the lamb, and how

589
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 1: if the I think you said, like, if the lion

590
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: got faster, there would eat they would eat too many

591
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: of the lambs. And if the lamb got stronger than

592
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: the lions would starve, and there needs to be this balance. Um,

593
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: do you see like the lion being the state and

594
00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: the lambs being the citizens. Yeah, basically, essentially nation states

595
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: have benefited from being very strong militarily, they provided protective services.

596
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: But now the equation is has changed drastically. More happens

597
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: outside of the purview of the state. Individuals can protect themselves.

598
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: Information isn't controlled as much by the state. And so

599
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: my the way that I described as us lambs individuals

600
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: have grown wings. You know, we can we can kind

601
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 1: of avoid the lion, avoid this predator. And and it's

602
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 1: it's this this idea that nation states will continuously have

603
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:55,760
Speaker 1: to treat citizens more like customers, right, and that would

604
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: exactly you know, wouldn't it be nice? And it it should,

605
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 1: that should be the way that things happen. Right, we

606
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: give so much money to these these sovereigns, but are

607
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: are they the best people to handle the money? Right?

608
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: And you start you start to think about that, and

609
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: it seems far fetch that that a nation would treat

610
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: you as a customer. But I think Singapore is a

611
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: great example. In Singapore's reference frequently in the Sovereign Individual,

612
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: which was written and now we can look at Singapore,

613
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: you know, twenty years later, and it's it's pretty shocking, right,

614
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 1: Singapore has been incredibly business friendly and what has happened.

615
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: A lot of businesses has moved to Singapore. It's interesting

616
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: that we even have to say that, especially as both

617
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: of us it in the United States right now, because

618
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: in the United States, it's supposed to be like a

619
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,439
Speaker 1: servant leader, right Like it's supposed to be the people

620
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: that are supposed to be serving the people. It's a

621
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: government of the people for the people. However, there's been

622
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 1: a massive shift over the last probably decade or so

623
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 1: where now I think the average person looks at the

624
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,879
Speaker 1: government as as a ruling class right there, they're not

625
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: representing us anymore. They're doing as they want, and now

626
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: for us to even have to talk about that, like

627
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: they should curious as a customer, Like, no, they should

628
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 1: look at us as their bosses. Yeah, but anyway, that's

629
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: not the case. But yeah, maybe it's hard, it's hard

630
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 1: to imagine, but maybe at some point where, um, with

631
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: those three factors, as you said, right, with the with

632
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: the widespread use of information breaking down the barriers that

633
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: we could move to the country that best suited our needs,

634
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 1: and then they started competing for us. Yeah, exactly, with

635
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 1: more happening outside of the purview of governments, the ability

636
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: of individuals to protect their property through encryption, decreasing decreasing

637
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: information asymmetry, and decreasing the value of location, people can

638
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 1: easily go to other places. And when when people start

639
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: to leave, then revenues start to decrease. Right. Problem The

640
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: problem is is, as you identified, kind of like the

641
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,439
Speaker 1: five of human motivations, one of those being greed, which

642
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,479
Speaker 1: seems to be bigger and more powerful than the other ones,

643
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: especially with certain individuals. And so you're always going to

644
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: have these people that are gonna want to control, right, So,

645
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,479
Speaker 1: like you know, uh, we see it in the Parent

646
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: Teacher Association. I see at my homeowners association. We see it,

647
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: you know, at the presidential level. Um. So it's like

648
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: one country says, hey, come set up here. We're like,

649
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: you know, business friendly. But then eventually someone's gonna want

650
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 1: to control that. Do you think that that greed factor

651
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: always is going to take over? Absolutely? Yeah. I mean,

652
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 1: but I think all of these things are just checked right,

653
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 1: and as a few businesses, as a few billionaires, you know,

654
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 1: start to leave jurisdiction that has high taxes and high

655
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: inflation to a jurisdiction which is more friendly towards these

656
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 1: wealthy people and more friendly towards businesses, then then I

657
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: think more countries start to take notice. You know. I

658
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 1: think we're both in California, which is probably u at

659
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 1: least the second worst state in the in the nation

660
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: behind New York, if not the worst state for taxes

661
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 1: and the way they treat businesses. And we've seen businesses

662
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: leave the state in droves. The rich have left the

663
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 1: state in droves. The rich have left New York in droves,

664
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: and they're all headed to lower tax regions no state

665
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 1: tax regions, Texas, Florida, etcetera. But yet the States haven't

666
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 1: decided to change. If anything, they've gotten, they've doubled down

667
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: on it. Yeah, I mean we'll see, we don't know.

668
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: I think this is the trend. But I think timing

669
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 1: is timing is a big question. Yeah. Now you made

670
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 1: you made one point, um that I wanted to touch

671
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: on where Um. I guess the first point was about

672
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 1: information and now with the widespread information and allows us

673
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: this arbitrage to live kind of wherever we want. And

674
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: you talked about how it's an especially interesting sector. You

675
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 1: made the comment, um, because of the way that it

676
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: gives people this you know, ability to access information, um,

677
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: which can really take hold. And how you're expecting like

678
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: the edge industry to grow to ten trillion you said,

679
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: by um and add a hundred teachers. Wh Where did

680
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: you kind of come up with that thesis that thought, Yeah,

681
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: these these are estimates that I found in a fairly

682
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: comprehensive report. I actually should probably link it in in

683
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: the in the paper. But UM, I think that education

684
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: is really the the gating factor here because it it

685
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: kind of allows the rest of it to fall into place. Uh.

686
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: And when you think about education, people can become educated

687
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: really easily. Uh, They have also the information at their fingertips.

688
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: Uh what is what is maybe a little bit more

689
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: difficult is the accreditation. And when when I think about

690
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,919
Speaker 1: the real value of universities right now, it's it's in accreditation.

691
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 1: Right like you went to Stanford, you went to Harvard,

692
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 1: you went to Yale. Uh that that that holds power

693
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: right there, you know. And uh, um, but that power

694
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: is being reduced. I made a video about this. Um.

695
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: A lot of the big fortune companies have taken away

696
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 1: the requirement to have a college degree. Now, Apple, A,

697
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: T and T, Marriott Hotels, they've all taken away that

698
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: requirement now. Yeah, and so that's that again, right, like

699
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,439
Speaker 1: the one little change in the drastic difference it makes.

700
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: And so by changing that, it takes away that that

701
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 1: accreditation piece, and so that's gonna help us, right. I

702
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 1: agree with that viewpoint. That's why I was just curious

703
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: about that. I think that's probably the biggest shift that

704
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 1: we'll see. Yeah, and I think that that opens up

705
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: an opportunity for someone to make a really good accreditation service,

706
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: right whatever it may be. Like, um, I think it

707
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: was Eric Tornberg he was talking about, right, what is

708
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: like the next linked in the next iteration of LinkedIn,

709
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 1: because linked In in in a way is is providing these

710
00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: accreditation services and it's like an online resume, But can

711
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: you take out a step further further or is is

712
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: it do you have an online portfolio or you know,

713
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: what does this tend to look like? And and there's

714
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: a big opportunity to own that that point kind of

715
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: my my thought on that is uh, because h is

716
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: is that we're already seeing this shift, right and and

717
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: they and they said like in the next two years,

718
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 1: I think like jobs and the US are projected to

719
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: be gig jobs. And so what we're starting to see

720
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: is like I want to specialize in running Facebook ads,

721
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: and I can work for five or six or ten

722
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 1: companies to run just Facebook ads, and I can be

723
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: the best Facebook ads guy. Where I can be a copywriter,

724
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: or I can be a video editor and I can

725
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: just be a video editor. I can be a bookkeeper

726
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: and I don't have to be hired full time with

727
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:42,240
Speaker 1: this company to be a bookkeeper. Just be a bookkeeper

728
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: for twenty companies, right um. And so it allows me

729
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: to just learn how to do bookkeeping, or learn how

730
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 1: to do Facebook ads, or learn how to do whatever

731
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 1: and I can watch YouTube videos for that, right, Um,

732
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 1: and then I can just offer those services on a

733
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: gig basis. And people think gig jobs are bad, but

734
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: they don't they have to be um. And maybe just

735
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: that whole because like as you already made, the case

736
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 1: that we agreed on is that like that that technical

737
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: role is diminishing M and so, UM, maybe I don't

738
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 1: need that college degree to go get that job at

739
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 1: a T and T. I could just become a bookkeeper

740
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:16,399
Speaker 1: and work for ten companies on the side and live

741
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 1: in a jurisdiction that has cheap rates, and I could

742
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: live a very good life exactly. Yeah, I completely agree

743
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: with that. Uh yeah, I think we'll we'll continue to

744
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 1: see more of that because, uh, people are going to

745
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: become more and more disgruntled in developed countries because because

746
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 1: they expect high wages and they pay a lot of taxes,

747
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: they pay a lot through inflation. Uh, and they pay

748
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: a lot just for their property. Right. Yeah. Yeah, Well,

749
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 1: some good stuff we went through. UM. I want to

750
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: wrap it up with one last point here, one question.

751
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: And so you said that, Um, you think the tipping

752
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 1: point will be in the next ten years. Um, I

753
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: guess based off of your thesis and what you're seeing.

754
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 1: You think the tipping point when this really all kicks

755
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 1: in isn't ten ears. Yeah, and I think that that

756
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: revolves mostly around, uh, the idea of distance technology and

757
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: centership resists in digital money. Um, it's pretty wild right now.

758
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 1: But I mean you you read the Sovereign Individual, it

759
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: sounds like it was written last week, to be honest,

760
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 1: right there are It talks a lot about the rising

761
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: nationalism and like these neo Luddites and um, higher higher inflation. Uh,

762
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: these trends of taxation. And it's it's pretty wild too

763
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: to read, to read the Sovereign Individual today because it

764
00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 1: it honestly was just so oppression. UM. So I you know,

765
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: the ten years is kind of a guest. You know,

766
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: it's it's hard to time these things, right, but yeah,

767
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 1: just based on how things are, how quickly things seem

768
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:16,280
Speaker 1: to be moving, um in the press in the press today, Yeah,

769
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,280
Speaker 1: it seems like just in the last six months, seeing

770
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: the increase in rise or in the last year, the

771
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:25,879
Speaker 1: increase and rise in UH in in demonstrations and protests

772
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 1: and and and the need for this distant tech as

773
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: you're talking about seeing the mesh networks and facial recognition

774
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: stuff being pushed just in the last couple of months,

775
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,840
Speaker 1: and in Iran and Hong Kong it's almost like the

776
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 1: governments are wanting to usher this and even faster. So, um,

777
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 1: I agree with you. Timing it's almost impossible. Um, but

778
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 1: at the rate we're going, maybe ten years might be

779
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: a long shot or a long time we'll see. Yeah,

780
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 1: definitely possible. I don't know. Cool, well, good stuff, phil If.

781
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,359
Speaker 1: I appreciate you taking the time to go through that. Um,

782
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: Like I said, there was a great book. Anyone that's listening,

783
00:44:58,440 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 1: you should just go read the book on your own.

784
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: There's a a lot of good stuff. We can't sum

785
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: it up in forty five minutes here. So Philip, I

786
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 1: know you're I guess where's you're on? Twitter? Obviously you

787
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 1: posted this on there. Is that the best place for

788
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 1: people to keep up keep up with you or anything? Um? Yeah,

789
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 1: I have a substack that you can find on Twitter.

790
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: I'd say Twitter is the easiest place to start. Phil

791
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 1: J Banello, UM, yeah, cool, and we'll link to that

792
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 1: in the show notes for everybody. So Philip, anyway, thanks

793
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,959
Speaker 1: for thanks for joining today. Thanks a lot market It's fun. Hey,

794
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: if you like this episode of the Market Disruptors Podcast,

795
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: please help us take this to the top of the

796
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,479
Speaker 1: podcast charts. Just please do me a favor and rate,

797
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 1: review and subscribe. Taking fifteen seconds to just leave a

798
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,439
Speaker 1: quick review goes a long way in helping us reach

799
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: more people and disrupt more markets. I really appreciate you listening,

800
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: and I'll see you next time on the Market Instructors podcast.