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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Let's see if you can figure this out.

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Speaker 1: Section three. I told you it's cold, baby. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: section three, Lot five forty three.

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Speaker 2: Wait where are we? We're over here right there. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we're in the dragway.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna go all the way down one path

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Speaker 1: and then two paths and.

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Speaker 2: On the site. It's got to be over here.

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Speaker 1: My twelve year old daughter and I are searching for

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Speaker 1: Eugene Bird's gravesite in Austin. It's very, very old, but

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Speaker 1: it's supposed to be pretty big. Let me look across here.

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Speaker 2: This is older.

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Speaker 1: See if I can find any markers here.

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Speaker 3: How's the dad house?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it says there again. Oh babe, there's markers. Be't

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Speaker 1: mare look that.

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Speaker 2: Hard the spot.

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Speaker 1: The markers are worn from age and weather, so it's

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Speaker 1: almost impossible to read many of them. But we keep

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Speaker 1: trying because oftentimes visiting the gravesites makes me feel the

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Speaker 1: most connected to the people in my stories. Okay, now

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Speaker 1: you start looking for the uh yeah, that's regular headstone.

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Speaker 1: It's around in here somewhere. We'll keep looking. In November

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Speaker 1: of eighteen ninety six, everyone in Austin knew where to

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Speaker 1: find William Eugene Burt. He was downtown in the city's

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Speaker 1: district courthouse, and he was going on trial for murdering

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Speaker 1: his wife and their two little girls. The prosecutor accused

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Speaker 1: Eugene of killing them because he was facing financial ruin

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Speaker 1: and a prison sentence, His defense attorney announced that they

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Speaker 1: would claim that he was insane at the time of

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Speaker 1: the killings. The trial was sensationalized in the press. Local

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Speaker 1: historian Monica Ballard says that the courthouse was packed with

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Speaker 1: people who hoped for just a glimpse of the monster

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Speaker 1: who murdered his family.

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Speaker 4: Hundreds of people packed the courtroom in order to see

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Speaker 4: what's going on. He would be marched into the courtroom handcuffed,

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Speaker 4: and his hat would be removed for him.

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Speaker 1: Gawkers stared at Eugene. One woman approached him at the

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Speaker 1: defendant's table and surveyed his face very closely. Eugene seemed

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Speaker 1: to either not be aware that she was there or

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Speaker 1: he just ignored her. Either way, he offered no reaction,

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Speaker 1: and then things got even stranger.

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Speaker 4: After everybody files in and everyone takes a seat, he

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Speaker 4: would flutter his eyelids closed, and he would remain in

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Speaker 4: that state until everything was done and court was dismissed.

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Speaker 4: He just closed his eyes the whole time, and there

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Speaker 4: would be no indication that he was I don't know

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Speaker 4: under self hypnosis, if he was cognizant of anything that

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Speaker 4: was going on. No one was entirely sure. He seemed

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Speaker 4: to have absolutely no There was nothing going on.

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Speaker 1: What was happening with Eugene Burt. When family and friends

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Speaker 1: took the stand, many described Eugene's marriage as seemingly happy.

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Speaker 1: He was a wonderful father, but others called him selfish, unreliable,

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Speaker 1: and unstable. Then his brothers testified for the defense, even

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Speaker 1: though they had accused him of stealing their money.

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Speaker 4: Roscoe and Mond, he did the best they could, and

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Speaker 4: even Mini took the stand and testified, you know that

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Speaker 4: she saw no evidence of any reason why he would

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Speaker 4: do this deed. Yeah, there were character witnesses who who

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Speaker 4: came forth and said, no, he was a loving father

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Speaker 4: and husband, was always giving any expensive presence. And then

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Speaker 4: his brothers would have to, you know, under cross examination, admit, yeah,

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Speaker 4: well a lot of times he stole the money for

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Speaker 4: those presents.

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Speaker 1: A parade of people from his life walked through that courtroom,

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Speaker 1: all testifying to why a husband and a father would

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Speaker 1: have done this, and throughout it all, Eugene Burt registered

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Speaker 1: not one reaction, even during one dramatic, unplanned incident in

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Speaker 1: the courthouse.

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Speaker 4: There was one time when testimony was being given about

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Speaker 4: drawing the bodies from out of the cistern and the

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Speaker 4: state of the condition of the children, in particular about

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Speaker 4: how their hands and feet were bound with wire. The

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Speaker 4: three year old was wearing a nightgown and the toddler

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Speaker 4: was in just a diaper, and someone had brought in

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Speaker 4: a baby into the courtroom. And as this testimony is

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Speaker 4: being given, everyone in the courtroom is being affected, not

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Speaker 4: only by the testimony, but by hearing this baby in

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Speaker 4: the back of the courtroom bah da da dah ba

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Speaker 4: and babbling on. And their hearts are being wrenched because

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Speaker 4: of this. And they turn and they look at Bert

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Speaker 4: to see what his reaction is. Nothing. There's just nothing

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Speaker 4: going on there. And the newspaper says, whose heart could

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Speaker 4: not be moved? His heart.

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Speaker 1: Monica says that Eugene's lack of emotion was interpreted in

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Speaker 1: different ways in the media.

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Speaker 4: Their opinion vacillated between Oh, he's certainly holding up well

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Speaker 4: under the strain, and how can he be so cold

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Speaker 4: and heartless as to not hold any reaction to the

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Speaker 4: testimony that's being given about him? What a cold blooded

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Speaker 4: killer he must be. There were both ends of the

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Speaker 4: spectrum there.

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Speaker 1: We know that a defendant's demeanor and court can really

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Speaker 1: sway a jury. If the suspect doesn't take the stand,

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Speaker 1: jurors might slyly observe them at the defense table, talking

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Speaker 1: with attorneys or a visiting with family members on breaks.

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Speaker 1: That image can affect how a jury votes. So Eugene Bert,

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Speaker 1: who was handsome and young, did himself no favors by

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Speaker 1: appearing so disconnected from the trial. He even seemed to

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Speaker 1: doze every once in a while. But why, Descendant Patricia

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Speaker 1: Charles has a theory could Eugene.

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Speaker 5: Have been drugged in any way during these proceedings? Like

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Speaker 5: how could he not have reacted when the little child,

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Speaker 5: you know, was crying or fell or something. And I'm thinking, well,

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Speaker 5: if somebody's given you morphia, maybe it just doesn't matter anymore.

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Speaker 1: Patricia brings up a quote from a newspaper article from

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Speaker 1: one of the physicians who examined Eugene a man named

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Speaker 1: doctor Wallace. Doctor Wallace got on the stand during the

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Speaker 1: trial and said, you know, Judge, I haven't been feeling well,

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Speaker 1: so I took a bit of morphine this morning, so

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Speaker 1: hopefully I'm lucid enough to testify. The judge said, sure,

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Speaker 1: no problem at all. I asked forensic psychiatrist doctor Christine

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Speaker 1: Montrose about Eugene Bird's odd reaction in court, his lack

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Speaker 1: of emotion.

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Speaker 6: Is there a whole range of reasons that someone could

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Speaker 6: be falling asleep in the courtroom? Sure, morphine could be one,

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Speaker 6: and you know, psychiatric symptoms could be another, and disinterest

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Speaker 6: and lack of remorse could be another. You know, all

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Speaker 6: of those possibilities are probably true.

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Speaker 1: So Eugene's apathy and court might have been drug induced,

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Speaker 1: not a lack of remorse, And in the late eighteen

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Speaker 1: hundreds his sedation might have been court ordered. It made

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Speaker 1: me one about modern day defendants. Can they ever be

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Speaker 1: forcibly drugged? Retired law school professor Linda Frost says no,

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Speaker 1: but with some caveats.

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Speaker 7: Today, you wouldn't sedate a criminal defendant so that they

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Speaker 7: could get through the trial. That said, there is a

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Speaker 7: lot of law around whether you can force medication so

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Speaker 7: that somebody is competent to stand trial. So it doesn't

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Speaker 7: mean that somebody won't be medicated by the arm of the.

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Speaker 4: State in order to go to trial.

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Speaker 7: And of course people take medications for all sorts of reasons.

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Speaker 7: People may be medicated, but for the state to force

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Speaker 7: medication there has to be more of a legal justification

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Speaker 7: other than well, he's going to be very stressed out

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Speaker 7: and this will calm him down.

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Speaker 1: It could be to control symptoms for mental health conditions.

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Speaker 7: It also could be that they are psychotic, and schizophrenia

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Speaker 7: can have active symptoms that were more familiar with the

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Speaker 7: kind of word salad, the acting out. But it also

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Speaker 7: could be a lack of engagement and a lack of emotion,

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Speaker 7: a turning inward. So we don't really know why he

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Speaker 7: would have been that way, whether it was medical, whether

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Speaker 7: it was psychological, or whether it was malintent and a

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Speaker 7: lack of feeling.

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Speaker 1: The stakes for this trial were very high for Eugene Burt.

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Speaker 1: If he were found guilty by reason of insanity, his

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Speaker 1: life would be spared and he would be institutionalized if

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Speaker 1: he were found guilty, but saying he would die at

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Speaker 1: the gallows. Eugene's defense team admitted that he had killed

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Speaker 1: Annie and Eleanor and Lucille. Monica Ballard says that his

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Speaker 1: attorneys never tried to accuse anyone else.

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Speaker 4: The evidence was so circumstantial that it was him, that

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Speaker 4: it could be no one else.

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Speaker 1: That was never brought up, that it could be ever

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Speaker 1: anyone else, no.

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Speaker 4: Other suspects, No, and he was never brought up to testify.

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Speaker 4: They thought they could do it without him testifying.

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Speaker 1: Because he's probably going to dig himself a bigger hole.

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Speaker 1: So they were smart.

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Speaker 4: So their defense was he was insane. He had to

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Speaker 4: have been insane to have done this. If he was

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Speaker 4: indeed a loving father, an adoting husband, he must have

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Speaker 4: suffered from temporary insanity in order to do this, that

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Speaker 4: those were moments of temporary insanity.

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Speaker 1: But here's the problem. During Eugene Burt's murder trial, his

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Speaker 1: attorneys never provided any evidence that he was legally insane.

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Speaker 1: They had character witnesses detailing what a good man he was,

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Speaker 1: how he was never violent. They admitted that he was

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Speaker 1: a murderer, but they never clearly stated why he was

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Speaker 1: legally insane. And I think it's because they knew that

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Speaker 1: Eugene Bert wasn't legally insane. Legal insanity was set at

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Speaker 1: a high bar even in the eighteen hundreds. The defendant

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Speaker 1: had to be unable to understand their actions were wrong.

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Speaker 1: According to most legal experts, people who are legally insane

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Speaker 1: don't cover up their crimes because they don't understand that

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Speaker 1: what they've done is a crime on the witness stand.

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Speaker 1: Doctors fumbled around with the term moral insanity in the

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Speaker 1: nineteenth century. Psychiatrists who were called alienists were trying to

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Speaker 1: sort out how someone could be physically sound and mentally

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Speaker 1: sound but they would still do evil things like murder

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Speaker 1: their family. Moral insanity was about as close a label

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Speaker 1: to psychopathy as they could get. But that's different from

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Speaker 1: mental illness. Mental illness can manifest itself in many ways,

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Speaker 1: extreme mood changes, withdrawal, excessive fears or worries. Psychopathy is

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Speaker 1: an antisocial personality disorder. Psychopathy manifestations are much narrower. A

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Speaker 1: lack of ability to love to establish per relationships, as

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Speaker 1: well as extreme egotism. Eugene Burt didn't seem to exhibit

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Speaker 1: any of those characteristics. I asked doctor Christine Montrose to

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Speaker 1: explain a little more about psychopathy. She says, to begin with,

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Speaker 1: let's avoid using the term psychopath.

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Speaker 6: We've shifted away from using nouns to describe people. So

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Speaker 6: a person is not a schizophrenic, they're not a sociopath.

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Speaker 6: It's a person who has schizophrenia, you know. It's a person.

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Speaker 6: Just like a person with diabetes. We're not describing any

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Speaker 6: longer as a diabetic. We're describing them as a person

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Speaker 6: with diabetes. So I think sociopath and psychopath are these

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Speaker 6: labels that tend to me to have more of a

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Speaker 6: of an antiquated historical flair.

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Speaker 1: Who are we describing?

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Speaker 6: These are people who I think the lay person would

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Speaker 6: describe as kind of lacking the moral compass that the

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Speaker 6: rest of us have, not really an awareness of right

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Speaker 6: or wrong, Difficulty feeling concern or empathy toward other people,

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Speaker 6: Frequent kind of self serving behavior, risk taking behavior.

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Speaker 1: They don't care about other people.

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Speaker 6: I think when someone is not just demonstrating antisocial traits

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Speaker 6: that mean that they're lying and stealing and conning, but

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Speaker 6: instead they're really engaging in kind of sadistic behavior and

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Speaker 6: taking pleasure from someone else's pain.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure that was Eugene Bird's behavior. He planned

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Speaker 1: the murder of his family and then covered it up.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like he took pleasure in it, but

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Speaker 1: who knows. He seemed disconnected during his trial and even after,

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Speaker 1: but he might have been resigned to dying on the gallows.

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Speaker 1: Descendant Jeremy Charles says that the eighteen hundreds must have

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Speaker 1: been a very confusing time for psychiatry and psychology.

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Speaker 8: I think a psychologist today would have a field day

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Speaker 8: looking over these trial notes from the physicians of the

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Speaker 8: time and trying to make heads or tails of what

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Speaker 8: Eugene Bird actually was and had he participated in other

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Speaker 8: illicit activities prior to these murders.

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Speaker 1: Linda Frost says that many doctors in the eighteen hundreds

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Speaker 1: weren't qualified to determine someone's sanity, and many doctors now

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Speaker 1: aren't either.

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Speaker 7: It's also important to think of the role of doctors back.

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Speaker 4: In the day.

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Speaker 7: They did all sorts of different things, right, Having a

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Speaker 7: medical degree doesn't automatically qualify you to do a forensic assessment.

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Speaker 7: Most doctors today should not be doing forensic assessments now.

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Speaker 7: Under the Texas Code, my gynecologist could do a forensic assessment.

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Speaker 7: Is my gynecologist skilled and qualified to do that? No,

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Speaker 7: but under the code, doctors can do that.

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Speaker 1: On December first, eighteen ninety six, after a murder trial

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Speaker 1: that lasted less than two weeks, both sides rested. The

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Speaker 1: all male jury deliberated that night over dinner, women wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be allowed on juries in Texas until nineteen fifty five.

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Speaker 1: The jury discussed the case the next morning over breakfast

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Speaker 1: before casting their ballots. Judge R. E. Brooks read the

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Speaker 1: jury's verdict. They were unanimous.

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Speaker 4: He is found guilty and sentenced to hang.

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Speaker 1: That might not have been much of a surprise, after all,

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Speaker 1: the defense never offered the jury any alternative suspects, and

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Speaker 1: they seemed to offer little proof of Eugene Burt's insanity.

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Speaker 1: His team immediately pledged to appeal. Everyone in the courthouse

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Speaker 1: turned to Eugene Burt. Reporters noted that he didn't even

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Speaker 1: bat an eye. No reaction, only silence. As Eugene walked

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Speaker 1: back to his jail cell, a reporter asked him about

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Speaker 1: the verdict. Eugene replied, I have nothing to say until

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Speaker 1: the Court of Appeals passes on the appeal that would

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Speaker 1: be made the prisoners in his jail bloc all asked

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Speaker 1: about the verdict, he replied very matter of factly guilty.

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Speaker 1: Eugene seemed lucid, even composed, and he seemed resigned that

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Speaker 1: he would die. If I had seen Eugene Bird's strange

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Speaker 1: courtroom behavior, I'm not sure what I would have thought.

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Speaker 1: But regardless of whether he was sane or not, his

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Speaker 1: lawyers hadn't proven it, so execution was on the table.

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Speaker 1: The debate over whether to execute someone who is mentally

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Speaker 1: ill is centuries old. We know that there are often

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Speaker 1: circumstances where the suspect is predisposed to mental illness, I

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Speaker 1: asked forensic psychiatrist doctor Christine Montrose about that.

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Speaker 6: We know that there are mental illnesses that run in family,

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Speaker 6: and we know also that there are, you know, mental

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Speaker 6: illnesses that spontaneously arise for people who have no history

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Speaker 6: of mental illness in their families. And then there are

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Speaker 6: people whose families are riddles with psychiatric disease who emerge

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Speaker 6: psychologically intact.

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Speaker 1: What does all that mean?

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Speaker 6: Certainly, if your family on both sides has people who

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Speaker 6: suffer from bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, or some of the psychiatric

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Speaker 6: illnesses that we know to be more heritable. Would you

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Speaker 6: be at elevated risk compared to someone who didn't have

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Speaker 6: any of that in their family.

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Speaker 9: Yes?

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Speaker 6: Does that sentence you to the certitude that you are

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Speaker 6: going to also suffer that same fate? No, it really doesn't.

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Speaker 1: But Bird's descendant, Julie Norton says that if Birds had

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Speaker 1: been mentally ill, that she's conflicted over his fate.

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Speaker 9: When I look at a criminal, I am offended by

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Speaker 9: that person, but I also feel like there is some cause.

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Speaker 9: It had to be something that wasn't just his mother

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Speaker 9: and father, because his two brothers didn't kill anybody. Something

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Speaker 9: caused it. I don't think that's how that kind of

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Speaker 9: thing happens. I don't think that's inherited in families.

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Speaker 1: So mental illness isn't enough of a defense for you.

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Speaker 9: It is a horrific story. I don't think it's understandable.

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Speaker 9: It's clearly not logical. No logical person would do that.

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Speaker 8: So it seems pretty cut and dry, and they have

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Speaker 8: all the evidence that they need. However, the judge that

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Speaker 8: oversees the trial says, wait a second. He kind of

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Speaker 8: puts the brakes on things, and he wants to investigate

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Speaker 8: Eugene Bird's mental capacity.

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Speaker 1: By January, Judge Brooks had not yet set an execution date,

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Speaker 1: and then came word that the Governor of Texas was

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Speaker 1: stepping in. Judge Brooks thought that the jury's verdict was just,

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Speaker 1: but he had to respect an order from the governor,

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Speaker 1: and it was an order made after an influential and

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Speaker 1: respected businessman intervened. Eugene's older brother.

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Speaker 4: Brother Roscoe, rides to the rescue again. God love him.

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Speaker 4: I mean, after the rabbit, I think I would have

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Speaker 4: written off my relatives.

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Speaker 1: I have found that families are much more committed in

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Speaker 1: some ways. In the eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 4: Brother Roscoe put to a request for a stay of

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Speaker 4: execution and it is signed by Governor Culbertson that you

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Speaker 4: can't execute William Eugene Bert because he is now insane.

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Speaker 4: The trial drove him insane, and it would be heartless

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Speaker 4: to execute an insane person. He belongs in an institution.

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Speaker 1: What was all the evidence from the end of the

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Speaker 1: trial until they were making this admission.

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Speaker 4: It was the fact that during his trial he showed

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Speaker 4: no emotion, and that he was constantly observed in his

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Speaker 4: cell even after his sentencing to show no cognizance that

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00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,800
Speaker 4: his life was about to end. There was no sense

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Speaker 4: of desperation or anything like that. They just didn't understand

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Speaker 4: how anybody could be facing this and not have it

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Speaker 4: drive them mad.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so what happens.

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Speaker 4: He's given another trial in January of eighteen ninety seven.

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Speaker 1: But all of this was because of Roscoe, not Eugene.

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Speaker 4: Eugene didn't want this second trial. He wanted to hang,

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Speaker 4: and so when Roscoe came through and said, oh no, no, no,

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Speaker 4: he's insane, you can't kill him. They reported on his reaction,

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Speaker 4: the newspaper said, over in a cell, Bert displayed little

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Speaker 4: or no excitement.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps Roscoe felt badly. Roscoe and Monty were the ones

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Speaker 1: who accused Eugene of stealing from them. He was going

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Speaker 1: to be arrested and likely convicted. That might have been

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Speaker 1: a trigger for the murders. Or maybe Roscoe really did

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Speaker 1: believe that his brother suffered from insanity. Eugene Burt was

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Speaker 1: now back in an Austin, Texas courtroom, and he didn't

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Speaker 1: really want to be there. He wanted to be done

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Speaker 1: with all of this. He was ready to be hanged.

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Speaker 1: Unlike his first trial, this time the courtroom discussion was

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Speaker 1: focused squarely on Eugene's mental condition.

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Speaker 4: There were a parade of physicians, psychologists as they were

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Speaker 4: during the day, people who worked for the mental institution,

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Speaker 4: who had the most exposure to knowing what an insane

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Speaker 4: person looks like.

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Speaker 1: Only the trial ended, the jury retired behind closed doors.

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Speaker 4: Everybody testified and everybody had their say, and at the

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Speaker 4: end of it there was a hung jury.

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Speaker 1: The jury couldn't reach a verdict. No one could seem

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Speaker 1: to determine if Eugene had been truly insane, and the

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Speaker 1: state wouldn't execute an insane man. So there was a stalemate.

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Speaker 1: What would happen to Eugene Bert Eugene reacted like he

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Speaker 1: always had. He had no reaction, Monica reads a newspaper

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Speaker 1: article from eighteen ninety seven.

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Speaker 4: If he was uneasy about the coming of today or

351
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Speaker 4: the uncertainty of his existence, he did not manifest it

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Speaker 4: in the least. He talked to Jaylor Hughes quite freely

353
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Speaker 4: yesterday and evidenced no apparent interest in the outcome of

354
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Speaker 4: the fight to save his life. So the second trial

355
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Speaker 4: did not have the whole historyonics or alex attainment that

356
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Speaker 4: the first trial did.

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Speaker 1: And now there was a third trial, and this one

358
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Speaker 1: was much more interesting than the last. The defense brought

359
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Speaker 1: up Eugene's traumatic birth. Remember, his father reported that his

360
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Speaker 1: wife Cleo, had some psychotic episodes during her pregnancy and

361
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Speaker 1: she had to be restrained during Eugene's birth. The defense said,

362
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Speaker 1: perhaps that caused his insanity. Doctor Christine Montrose helps me

363
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Speaker 1: wrap my head around that. Can your actions later in

364
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Speaker 1: life be connected to what happens in the womb?

365
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Speaker 6: I don't know that we know the answer to that question, Kate.

366
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Speaker 6: I mean, is it possible that if someone sustained physical

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Speaker 6: trauma during birth or neurologic trauma during birth, that that

368
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Speaker 6: could then affect their ability to self regulate? That I

369
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Speaker 6: think we could say with more confidence. But in terms

370
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Speaker 6: of like the psychological experience of having gone through a

371
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Speaker 6: traumatic birth as a neonate, I don't have any idea

372
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Speaker 6: about that. I feel like a stretch of defense.

373
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Speaker 1: To me, it sounds like we can rule out to

374
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Speaker 1: birth trauma as a cause for Eugene's violence later in life.

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Speaker 4: And so the third trial came along. One thing that

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Speaker 4: was really bugging me about about the trial was that

377
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Speaker 4: the last medical expert to testify was doctor J. W. McLaughlin,

378
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Speaker 4: and he was a Bert's family physician and doctor McLaughlin

379
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 4: had been listed as a witness for the defense, but

380
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 4: was absent from the city at the time the defense

381
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Speaker 4: made its case.

382
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Speaker 1: Doctor McLaughlin offered testimony that was confusing to everyone. I

383
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Speaker 1: think even he was confused because he constantly contradicted himself.

384
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 4: McLaughlin determined that Bert was morally insane, but then on

385
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Speaker 4: cross examination, the state quite simply asked McLaughlin if he

386
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Speaker 4: had ever noticed insanity in Burt, to which McLaughlin replied

387
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Speaker 4: that no, he had never observed that, and then, on

388
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Speaker 4: a redirect the day said his opinion of a man

389
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Speaker 4: who had murdered his wife and children entirely without motive,

390
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 4: what do you think of that man? And McLaughlin said, well,

391
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Speaker 4: that man would be insane. What So, in other words,

392
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Speaker 4: anytime someone was asked, is this man insane? If they

393
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 4: knew him, they would say, no, that man is not insane,

394
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 4: But asked about the situation disconnecting from the person that

395
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Speaker 4: they knew, they would agree, yes, that man is totally insane.

396
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Speaker 4: So it was the familiarity with Burt that made everybody

397
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Speaker 4: just as confused as when it starts.

398
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: So this comes back to the mystery surrounding Eugene Burt.

399
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,640
Speaker 1: He seemed so normal, with the exception of a few

400
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,919
Speaker 1: outbursts here and there over the years, and of course

401
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,679
Speaker 1: the thieving and the fraud, but he was normally composed.

402
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 1: He seemed like a loving father and husband. How could

403
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: this happen?

404
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 4: What you saw in the courtroom is what he still

405
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 4: is often aloof personal times, serene, a little creepy, but sane.

406
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 4: There was no wild behavior. There were no fits of

407
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 4: weeping or fear, no pleading for his life.

408
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: The jurors returned and another hung jury. Once again, a

409
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: panel of men couldn't decide if Eugene Burt should die

410
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: because he was cold hearted, or if he should live

411
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 1: in an institution because he was legally insane. Jeremy Charles

412
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 1: says Eugene might not have been legally insane, but he

413
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 1: does think that Eugene was mentally ill.

414
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 8: One of the things that sticks out to me is

415
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 8: that at the trial in eighteen ninety eight, to determine

416
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 8: his moral sanity, he writes a letter. I don't think

417
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 8: it's in his own defense. It's so bizarre. He's almost

418
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 8: speaking about himself in the third person. This, I think

419
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 8: goes to his mental state at the time.

420
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Speaker 1: In one of those letters, eugene Bert wrote, Great God

421
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: be thanked the hellish brute that took me the sweets

422
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: of my life, that snapped the human chords of my heart,

423
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Speaker 1: that took from me and sent to heaven, my loved ones.

424
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Speaker 1: We'll never see the fulfillment of the ends of lawful justice.

425
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 1: How happy to lay and dream to hear the howls

426
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: and shrieks and screams of his tortured soul. The jury

427
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: read copies of the letters. Did eugene Bert's writing convince

428
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: jurors that he was legally insane? There was yet another trial,

429
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 1: and this time the jurors finally agreed on a verdict.

430
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: Eugene Bert was deemed sane. It was finally over, and

431
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: eugene seemed pleased. He was sentenced to hang on May

432
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 1: twenty seventh, eighteen ninety eight, almost two years after he

433
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: killed his family. But his brothers appealed to the courts

434
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Speaker 1: one last time.

435
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 4: And on May twenty third, another appeal was made, but

436
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 4: the governor was like, no, no, no, this man wants

437
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 4: to die, so let him.

438
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: The appeal was rejected, he would die on May twenty seventh.

439
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: There was no saving him.

440
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 2: Now.

441
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 1: Former federal investigator Fred Burton believes that Eugene Bert was

442
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 1: rightly convicted. He doesn't believe that someone who is legally

443
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: insane can methodically premeditate a crime like Eugene clearly did.

444
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: Whether he would be rightly executed is another story for

445
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: a different season.

446
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 10: At what point did they quote unquote snap, how do

447
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 10: they go about and functioning in a very complex kind

448
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 10: of murder? I would argue that they don't. Now, you

449
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 10: could say that that person is not functioning in a

450
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 10: normal kind of space like the average person is. But

451
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 10: that person was very methodical and very detail and certainly

452
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 10: knows right from wrong by the efforts to cover up

453
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 10: that crime.

454
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: Regardless, Eugene Bert had always maintained his innocence.

455
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 4: The night before his execution, Bert spent all night writing,

456
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 4: and he apparently disliked what he wrote because he tore

457
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 4: a lot of it up. And then he dozed in

458
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 4: a chair with his feet up on a table, which

459
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 4: apparently was his habit rather than lying in a bed,

460
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 4: And then after a hearty breakfast, he said he was

461
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 4: really hungry. He wrote his last public statement in which

462
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 4: he claimed to have killed those who murdered his family. Yeah,

463
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 4: he said, the man who killed my family, I took

464
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 4: care of him a long time ago.

465
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: Why do you think he did that? Do you think

466
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: that's real or do you think that was just a front?

467
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 4: I think in his mind it was real. If he

468
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 4: had some sort of dissociative condition, he made that disconnect,

469
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 4: maybe even on the train, maybe when he saw missus

470
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 4: driscoll and decided in his mind he killed off that

471
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,719
Speaker 4: part of him who did that deed. As for what

472
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 4: awaited him, he wrote, I'm prepared to accept the situation

473
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 4: with as little complaining as possible, face the new foe,

474
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 4: and have my banner of satisfaction unfurled to the breeze

475
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 4: until it and I sink into everlasting oblivion. Had some

476
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 4: Victorian writing right there, flowery, flowery language.

477
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 2: One.

478
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 8: I think he's in a way admitting to his body

479
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 8: committing the crimes. But it wasn't his soul or his

480
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 8: mentality that was committing the crimes. And that part of

481
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 8: him has already been punished by some supernatural force, God

482
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 8: or whatever you want to think about it. And so

483
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 8: that's an interesting admission on his part to speak of

484
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 8: it in that way, basically admitting guilt, but at the

485
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 8: same time not by claiming that it wasn't something else

486
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 8: was in control of his body at the time of

487
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 8: the murders, basically.

488
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: I interviewed doctor Anne Wohlbert Burgess for my other show,

489
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: Wicked Words. She's the criminal psychologist who helped shape the

490
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: FBI's behavioral science unit in the nineteen seventies. She told

491
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: me that she's asked serial killers to draw their crime scenes,

492
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: and often they draw from the point of view of

493
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: someone floating above the bodies, totally disconnected from the crimes.

494
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: That might have been the case with Eugene Burt.

495
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 4: So he was led to the scaffold calmly. He looked

496
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 4: over the crowd of about one hundred spectators and reporters,

497
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 4: and he commented, there are so many more people here

498
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 4: than I thought there'd be. It was in the courtyard

499
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 4: of the county jail, so that's probably probably quite crowded.

500
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 4: And to the crowd, he announced, except for the disgrace

501
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 4: attached to the scene, it is the happiest moment of

502
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 4: my life.

503
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: What you read on that.

504
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 4: He so wanted to die. Once he killed off whoever

505
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 4: he thought killed his family, the purpose of his life

506
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 4: was over.

507
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: His arms and legs were pinioned, and he seemed relaxed.

508
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 1: A black hood was placed over his head. Eugene was quiet.

509
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: The sheriff pulled the lever, and Eugene dropped. The Bert's

510
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: family doctor stood underneath and watched as Eugene fell. He

511
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: had known Eugene his entire life. Doctor Whoton noted that

512
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: the killer's body seemed to actually relax, not stiffen as

513
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: was usually the case. It seemed as if Eugene Bert

514
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: was finally at peace with his death. After his body

515
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: was loaded onto a cart, doctor Whutten and several physicians

516
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: examined him. The noose had broken his neck, yet he

517
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: lived for almost twelve minutes. Many whispered that it was

518
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: an appropriate ending for a man who had murdered his

519
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: lovely wife and the little girls. Annie's mother and sister

520
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: also seemed at peace finally. They would eventually be buried

521
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: next to Annie and Eleanor and Lucille. Fred Burton says,

522
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: oftentimes family members find themselves conflicted with an execution.

523
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 10: At the end of the day, when you're looking at

524
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 10: these horrific crimes of violence like this case. It's very

525
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 10: easy for people to say, well, isn't that terrible, But

526
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 10: when it becomes personal and it involves a family member,

527
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 10: there's a different feeling. You know, it depends on the

528
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 10: family and the person. But there is this desire for justice.

529
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 10: I wouldn't say vengeance, but I would say justice. Somebody

530
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 10: needs to be held accountable for what took place.

531
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,719
Speaker 1: But what if the killer ends up in a mental institution,

532
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: which is what might have happened with Eugene Burt. That

533
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: would not be punitive enough for a lot of families,

534
00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: not at all.

535
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 10: I think most families would say that that's an easy

536
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 10: cop out, or the system has been gained to the

537
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 10: point where that person was able to take advantage of this.

538
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: But Eugene Bert was never given that opportunity. Jeremy Charles

539
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 1: says this story of Eugene Bert and his family will

540
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: forever confuse him.

541
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 8: In reality, I think most crimes, you know, are typically

542
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 8: crimes of passion, and I would imagine this probably will

543
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 8: end up if we ever figure out exactly what happened

544
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 8: being just that.

545
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 1: But this doesn't seem premeditated to you.

546
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 8: It does seem premeditated and in some ways. And that's

547
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 8: what makes this all so interesting is that it's easy

548
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 8: to go either way, because there's a lot of things

549
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 8: that he did after the murderers that seemed like he

550
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 8: would have had to have those planned in order to

551
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 8: do it in such a timely manner that by the

552
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 8: next morning he's having breakfast with his servant.

553
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: He is relatively calm and able to function.

554
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 8: Yeah, And that's what makes this kind of interesting is

555
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 8: that you start to lean one way and you're like, oh,

556
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 8: I can totally see that, But then you start leaning like, oh,

557
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 8: oh what about this? Like oh, damn it, I forgot

558
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 8: about that, you know. So this is kind of my

559
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 8: favorite type of crime that are really really difficult to

560
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 8: explain because there are so many different explanations that seem

561
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 8: totally valid.

562
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: I agree, there's no simple explanation for me either. Without

563
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: modern tests, it's just not clear if Eugene Burts struggled

564
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: with mental illness. So much of this has to be conjecture.

565
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: I do a lot of that because I deal with

566
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: very old cases. But I suspect that many suspects in

567
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: history did struggle with mental illness, as we know many

568
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 1: do today. Doctor Christine Montrose says that the study of

569
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: mental illness is imperative for society.

570
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 6: My guess is that as we learn more and more

571
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 6: about mental illness and science continues to move forward, we're

572
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 6: going to be better able to trace and predict who's

573
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 6: more likely, under what circumstances to inherit these mental illnesses.

574
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 6: It's not a sentence for people at all, if they're family,

575
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 6: if they have a strong family history. It's a concern,

576
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 6: but not a sure sentence.

577
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: We've talked a lot about why this happened. How could

578
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 1: a man kill his wife and his little girls. Eugene's

579
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 1: mind might have been mired with mental illness, psychopathy, or

580
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: brain damage. Defense attorney David Shepherd has defended killers who

581
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: he says are irredeemable. He says those are all options,

582
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: but there might have also been a simpler explanation.

583
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 3: You don't have to fit into a dism category or

584
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 3: axis to be a terrible person and do terrible things.

585
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 3: They're not schizophrenic, and they're not any of those things.

586
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 3: They're just goddamn mean people and do bad things.

587
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 4: William ejen Burt was buried quietly in Oakwood cemetery in

588
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 4: the family plot, far away from the remains of his

589
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 4: wife and children, who were buried under her maiden name

590
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:06,919
Speaker 4: Powers in Mount Calvary Catholic Cemetery. During the brief ceremony

591
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 4: of heavily veiled woman approached, laid a small bouquet of

592
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 4: flowers on the casket, and retreated Anonymous, who was thought

593
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 4: that she was a friend of the families.

594
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 1: Despite Eugene Bird's crimes, his family was still very respected.

595
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 1: His victims, Annie, Eleanor and Lucille were featured in newspaper

596
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 1: articles for years after Eugene Birt was executed, and then

597
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: their story was lost to time, like the stories of

598
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,439
Speaker 1: many victims. Their home on Ninth Street is no longer there.

599
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 1: It was the scene for three gruesome, tragic murders, killings

600
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: that still seemed to haunt the spot where the house

601
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: was even almost one hundred and thirty years later. Listened

602
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: to this coincidence.

603
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,800
Speaker 8: One of the victims of the Annihilator murders was a

604
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 8: woman named Susan Hancock, and she was murdered Christmas Eve

605
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 8: eighteen eighty five.

606
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 1: This was the murder scene that Eugene Burt visited when

607
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 1: he was a teenager. Aside from that, there's another connection

608
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 1: to Sue Hancock.

609
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,760
Speaker 8: The connection is that her daughter ends up marrying a

610
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 8: man named Serbery. In nineteen hundred. She actually is running

611
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 8: a boarding house at g S two seven East ninth Street,

612
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 8: the very same house that the Burt murders took place in.

613
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 8: So there is an odd connection in that one of

614
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 8: the victim's daughters ended up living in the same house.

615
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: That property where the Berts built their lives and Eugene

616
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,919
Speaker 1: destroyed their family seems to have bad luck.

617
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 4: And as for where the home once stood, nothing prospers,

618
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 4: nothing stays very long. That building is under constant renovation,

619
00:38:48,960 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 4: but never occupation. It's as unsettling as this whole story.

620
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,320
Speaker 1: There's another worker can't read it. I don't know, babe.

621
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: We might be going down a dead end here. My

622
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: daughter and I are still wandering through Oakwood Cemetery in Austin.

623
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: We're searching for Eugene Burt with no luck. We were

624
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 1: so happy to have found any powers and the girls

625
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 1: back in the Mount Calvary Cemetery. It was clear from

626
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: their family plot that they were valued and loved. Eugene

627
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: Burt does have a headstone somewhere in Oakwood, next to

628
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 1: his parents and his brother Monty. But it's a very

629
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 1: cold day and we're tired, so we give up on

630
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: finding William Eugene Burt. Normally we would be very frustrated,

631
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: but this time we're not. Oh, vibe, this might be

632
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 1: too cold. He's out in here somewhere. It's I actually,

633
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: in some ways like this better. I don't really know

634
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 1: if I want to find him because he doesn't deserve.

635
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 2: It, because he was a killer. Yeah, who cares?

636
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this season of tenfold More Wicked

637
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: on Exactly Right. You can hear the trailer for our

638
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 1: next season in one week next Monday. If you love

639
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: a good, real ghost story, My new audiobook original The

640
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Speaker 1: Ghost Club is available for pre order now wherever audiobooks

641
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Speaker 1: are sold. I can't wait to tell you the real

642
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Speaker 1: story about the world's most famous ghost hunter, who was

643
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 1: the head of the world's most famous ghost club, and

644
00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 1: how he investigated England's most famous haunt. Please also check

645
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: out my new book All That Is Wicked. This has

646
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold War Media production producers Jason Whaling,

647
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 1: Alexis Mrosi, and Natalie Rinn Editors Jason Whaling, David Fabello

648
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: and Kate Winkler Dawson researcher Kate Winkler Dawson, sound designer

649
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: Eric Friend, composer Curtis Heath. Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive

650
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: producers Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. Follow us

651
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Speaker 1: Twitter at tenfold war and If you know of a

653
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Speaker 1: historical crime that could use some attention, especially if it

654
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655
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