1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Previously on Weedian House. 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 2: I think, coming from a British perspective, I'm very mindful 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 2: when everyone always wants to point the finger at America 4 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 2: because obviously under Trump it's really really bad. But I 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: think it's quite a dangerous game because it makes other 6 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 2: countries get away with it, you know, like we have 7 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 2: police brutality here. All the kind of terrible things go 8 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,319 Speaker 2: on here, you know, and many people might say we're 9 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 2: the ones who taught America or the worst things. So 10 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 2: I think it's quite important to be aware. 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 3: Of what's going on. 12 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 4: Welcome back to Weedian Howse. I'm your host Bo Henderson. 13 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 4: This week we have the author of Wards of the State, 14 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 4: The Long Shadow of American foster Care. Our guest author, 15 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,479 Speaker 4: Claudia Rooa is with us and we had a most 16 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 4: enlightening discussion the first on House News. Our first story 17 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 4: comes from Washington, d C. The Justice Department has been 18 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 4: brainstorming new ways to clear encampments. At President Donald Trump's urging, 19 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 4: top Justice officials sent employees in the Office of Justice 20 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 4: Programs and eight question email asking for a VERIR input 21 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,199 Speaker 4: on how best to direct resources with the un housed 22 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 4: community and mental illnesses. Here's one of the questions. What 23 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 4: can the Department of Justice do to more efficiently shift 24 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 4: chronic vagrants away from the public square and into a 25 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 4: more concentrated space so that order can be restored and 26 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 4: resources and services can be deployed or effectively. Or this one, 27 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 4: what can the Department of Justice do to increase their 28 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 4: availability and use of involuntary commitment for individuals who otherwise 29 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 4: cannot or will not receive care. Lastly, what can the 30 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 4: federal government do to shift state and local government policies 31 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 4: and behavior to this issue. The Trump administration is moving 32 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 4: away from the housing first model, which is the policy 33 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 4: of placing people in stable housing before trying to direct 34 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 4: them into mental health or addiction services. Trump also issued 35 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 4: an executive order to make DC safe and Beautiful by 36 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 4: directing the National Park Services to remove all encampments from 37 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 4: federal land in the nation's capital. Our second story takes 38 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 4: place in Washington, DC again. On May twenty second, twenty 39 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 4: twenty five, the House Republican voted two hundred and fifteen 40 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 4: to two hundred and fourteen to upend the Supplemental Nutrition 41 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 4: Assistance Program, also. 42 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: Known as the EBT or SNAP program. 43 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 4: They are permanently changing the structure and are cutting three 44 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 4: hundred billion dollars over the next decade. This will take 45 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 4: food from millions of unhoused house families, children, disabled residents, 46 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 4: older adults, and veterans. Also impacted by these cuts will 47 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 4: be farmers, roasters, state and local governments, and the overall economy. 48 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 4: The thirty percent deep slash has opened a door to 49 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 4: starvation strategic and non strategic. Will people be choosing medication 50 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 4: over food because of this new three month time limit rule. Currently, 51 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 4: adults ages eighteen to fifty four must work eighty hours 52 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 4: a month to receive benefits unless they have young children. However, 53 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 4: under the new plan, these work requirements will extend to 54 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 4: parents with children over seven years old and to older 55 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 4: adults up to age sixty four. Over forty two million 56 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 4: people are struggling with food insecurity in the United States. 57 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 4: Not programs help more than forty million people feed their families. 58 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 4: And that's on House News. When we come back, we're 59 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 4: here from author Claudia Row about her new book about 60 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 4: the failures of the broken American foster care system. Welcome 61 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 4: back to William House. I'm THEO Henderson. Before we delve 62 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 4: into our interview with Claudia Row. I want to drop 63 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 4: a fact. Did you know that Medicaid covers one in 64 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 4: three children diagnosed with cancer in the United States? That 65 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 4: is true, and yet Trump recently approved to cut those benefits. 66 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 4: Many times, the ones that suffer are the vulnerable, such 67 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 4: as children who are unable to speak out against injustice. 68 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 4: Answer Miss Roll with her extensive interviews and the challenges 69 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 4: that impoverished children face in Mariada. Ways without further ado, 70 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 4: Missus Claudia wrote about her latest book, Wards of the State, 71 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 4: The Long Shadow of American Foster Care. 72 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 3: Hi, thank you so much for having me on and 73 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 3: for being interested in this topic and how the book 74 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 3: figures into it. So the book is Wards of the State, 75 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 3: The Long Shadow of American Foster Care, And initially when 76 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 3: I got into it, I was shocked to discover the 77 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 3: overlap between foster care and incarceration. The incredible number of 78 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 3: kids who literally go from one state system ward of 79 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 3: the state in one system to ward of the state 80 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 3: in another. Sometimes it's literal a seamless handoff, and the 81 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 3: numbers are really off the charts. Also within that is 82 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 3: homelessness that is somewhat more covered. The incredible numbers of 83 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 3: foster youth who leave the system aging out at eighteen, 84 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 3: some of them just go straight onto the street. You know. 85 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 3: The estimate is like twenty percent of foster kids who 86 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 3: age out will be immediately homeless. Other numbers, you know, 87 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 3: say that like twenty five percent of kids who've grown 88 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 3: up in foster care will experience houselessness by the time 89 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 3: they are twenty six. And there's other data that says 90 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 3: roughly fifty percent of the unhoused population in our country 91 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 3: our former foster youth. This is like ridiculous. We took 92 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 3: kids from their families to purportedly do something better, and 93 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 3: what we've done is create a population just like armies 94 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 3: of future homeless people that has received some coverage, the 95 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 3: connection with incarceration far less. So that's what wards of 96 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 3: the state looks at. 97 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 4: Well, here's the thing too that I remember when in 98 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 4: the earlier days, when I started the show, and I 99 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 4: interviewed a gentleman who was a young man, and he 100 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 4: told me he has been living literally he had a 101 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 4: family dynamic situation where his parents were killed in a 102 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 4: car accident and he went to live with his grandmother, 103 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 4: who was obviously of advanced age, and she passed away 104 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 4: and they placed him in the foster home. But the 105 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 4: foster home was such a condition of abusive situation that he, 106 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 4: at ten years old, just started living on the streets 107 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 4: and he has been living on the streets from then. 108 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 4: And I think one of the conversational points that I 109 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 4: like to point out too, is like one of the 110 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 4: things about houselessness and this new wave of erasing unhoused 111 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 4: or forcing unhoused people in places or environments that they 112 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 4: are erased and invisible because you can't see them, then 113 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 4: there's no house. 114 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: It's problem. 115 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 4: And I think that's part of it with the foster 116 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 4: care situation is when someone removes them, they have this 117 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 4: belief system that you know, the sunshine and rainbows, you know, 118 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 4: you know, you can walk down the Yellow Brook Road 119 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,239 Speaker 4: and everything is wonderful, and it's far from the truth, 120 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 4: because there you left someone from their connective duculus of 121 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 4: a family, and then you got them into some system 122 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 4: that is very abject and very indifferent too. If they 123 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 4: survive or not or survive or thrive, and then so 124 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 4: when they get to become eighteen, there are no tools, 125 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 4: there are no ways of navigating the situation of life. 126 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 1: Even if you are housed then you're not a foster kid. 127 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 4: It's still difficult, but it becomes increasingly more difficult if 128 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 4: you didn't have someone that shepherd you along the challenges, 129 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 4: the milestones of life, you know, you know, teenage years 130 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 4: and learning how to do a resume, how to present 131 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 4: yourself to employers, how to look for housing, and things 132 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 4: like that, so that those are key skills that sometimes 133 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 4: get overlooked. 134 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, you said a couple of essential words there, you 135 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 3: said invisible. This is something that frustrated me as a reporter. 136 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 3: So I'm a journalist. I've been covering child welfare and 137 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 3: juvenile justice for like nearly thirty five years, a long time. 138 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,719 Speaker 3: And one thing that any reporter who looks at this 139 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 3: is going to encounter is the sort of oh, confidentiality, 140 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 3: and you're dealing with minors and children's privacy, and so 141 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 3: there's this structural you know, laws that allow the state 142 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 3: to shield kids supposedly for their own protection, but really 143 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 3: what it does is shield the state. What it really 144 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 3: does is prevent scrutiny from outsiders, from journalists. Right, And 145 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 3: I'll tell you every young person I talked to for 146 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 3: this book, and there were many, many, every one of 147 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 3: them wanted to talk. I mean, you know, it's sort 148 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 3: of when the state says, oh, confidentiality, as if what 149 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 3: the foster care is something to be ashamed of. The 150 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 3: kids fall. You know, this is supposed to be a 151 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 3: system where we're helping people, right, and what we're doing 152 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 3: at best, I think is warehousing people. That's the good situation, right. 153 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 3: And one thing I found you said this also one 154 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 3: thing I found in really diving in here. Sure there 155 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 3: are people who are abusive in the system, but in 156 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 3: the main that is not the experience of kids in 157 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 3: the system. It's more like this kind of mechanized or 158 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 3: faceless kind of brutality. It's, as you said, indifferent. It's 159 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 3: a system. It's a machine, and kids are just sort 160 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 3: of moved along through the conveyor belt of the machine 161 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 3: from one stop to the next. And it is that 162 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 3: that impermanence and that lack of connection that really seems 163 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 3: to damage kids. That really is what spits young people 164 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 3: out at eighteen or in some case is at twenty one, 165 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 3: poorly equipped to navigate mainstream life jobs. You know, roommates 166 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 3: forget about like marriage and friendships and all that stuff, 167 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 3: but just sort of the basic building blocks of sort 168 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 3: of having a life where you can support yourself to college. 169 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 3: All of that is sort of not normal for kids 170 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 3: who grow up in foster care. And I think that 171 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 3: the structural invisibility of the system prevents us, the outsiders, 172 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 3: the general people, from realizing this, from really seeing that. 173 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 3: You know, half the people around you could have some 174 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 3: kind of connection to the foster care system, but you 175 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 3: would never know. You, as a parent, don't know that 176 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 3: the kids sitting next to your child in school doesn't 177 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 3: go home to you know, what you would call a 178 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 3: normal home. They might not even know where they're going 179 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 3: home to that night, and that has serious impacts on behavior. 180 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 3: And we can talk about the connection with prison if 181 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 3: you want, but that's part of it, you. 182 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 4: Know, And before we get into that part of it too, 183 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 4: because it has I see the interconnectedness with that as 184 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 4: well as how it intersects with the unhoused community too. 185 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 4: Is that people see the acting out or the behavior 186 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 4: that causes appalling or alarm, but not understanding the underroot 187 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 4: causes of it. The symptom is not being addressed. Children 188 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 4: are going to be children no matter what, and I 189 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 4: was an educator. They're going to act out whatever the 190 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 4: environment that they're in, the situational the best way, the 191 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 4: coping mechanisms and the skills that they have or that 192 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 4: they are taught to do. And if you don't have that, 193 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 4: and you have a system that creates this impenetrable wall 194 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 4: that you can't interface with kids to be able to 195 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 4: get building blocks and coping skills for them to be 196 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 4: able to navigate when they do age out, it's. 197 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: A foregone conclusion. 198 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 4: You're going to meet them and a penetrantary or another 199 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:58,719 Speaker 4: penaut or another institutional holding place for them to be in. 200 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: But let's look a little do that too. Yeh. 201 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. There are efforts to address various problems in foster care, 202 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 3: but they're kind of nibbling at the edges, right. You know, 203 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 3: there's one side of the conversation. It would be like 204 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 3: the abolition side. We need to just get rid of it. 205 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 3: It's a disaster. And you can see that argument because 206 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 3: the outcomes of foster care are frankly atrocious. We spend 207 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 3: thirty billion dollars every year on foster care in this country, 208 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 3: and you know, we'll be conservative here, We'll say twenty 209 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 3: five percent of kids who leave the system end up 210 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 3: homeless at some point in their life. There's data that 211 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 3: I have in the book that shows kids who have 212 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 3: grown up in foster care are three times more likely 213 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 3: to be incarcerated. There's other data that says, you know, 214 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 3: by the time kids age out of foster care, by 215 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 3: the time they're twenty six, more than half will have 216 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 3: been incarcerated. And that could include like juvenile detention while 217 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 3: you're still in foster care, or could include you know, 218 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 3: a county jail, or it could include state prison for 219 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 3: a serious crime. But that is insane, right, Numbers like 220 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 3: over fifty percent experience lock up. Being conservative, twenty five 221 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 3: percent will experience homelessness by the time they're twenty six. 222 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,559 Speaker 3: And for this, this is what we're spending thirty billion 223 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 3: dollars every year for those accos. So you can understand 224 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 3: why abolitionists say this is ridiculous. You can't reform this system. 225 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 3: And I think that there might be something to that. 226 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 3: You know, we've tried, like I said, nibbling at the 227 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 3: edges and tweaking it. Like there's extended foster care, which 228 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 3: allows kids to remain sort of quote unquote under somebody's 229 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 3: roof and there's some kind of state support still happening 230 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 3: until they're twenty one. But there are a lot of 231 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 3: conditions that come with that in certain states, like you 232 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 3: have to be in school or you have to be employed. 233 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 3: These are reasonable conditions. I'm not saying they're not. But 234 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 3: so many young people when they turn eighteen and they've 235 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 3: had the state running their life since childhood and not 236 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 3: in a great way, they're not feeling I they want 237 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 3: to hang around for another three years for more of that. 238 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 3: So it's often very hard to get foster youth to 239 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 3: participate in extended foster care. Yes, there are incredible young 240 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 3: people who manage to do it and somehow get to 241 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 3: college and somehow have fulfilling, productive lives, and some of 242 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 3: them are in my book Wards of the State. But overall, 243 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 3: fewer than five percent of kids who age out of 244 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 3: foster care will ever get a four year college degree. 245 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 3: Fewer than five percent, and fifty nine percent or something 246 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 3: are getting locked up. This is wrong. 247 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: This is wrong. 248 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 4: Let's talk on that a bit, because I was going 249 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 4: back through my mind's eye when you was mentioning that 250 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 4: when I was in high school, and I was like 251 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 4: many people coming from artwork circumstances, and I could get 252 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 4: to imagine someone that's dealing with foster care and they're 253 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 4: dealing with the challenges of high school growing up, and 254 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 4: someone asking what their future is going to be like 255 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 4: where they're going to stay. 256 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: Like one of the frightening things. 257 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 4: For me was going to college because you know, this 258 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 4: is going to be the first time that I'm going 259 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 4: to be matching my wits on my own. 260 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: And how am I going to navigate that? 261 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 4: You know, I can't go and expect the meals that's 262 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 4: going to be cooked, or where am I going to 263 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 4: go to do laundry because you know nobody's going to 264 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 4: be doing by laundry but me, or just the natural things. 265 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 4: How to take the bus, how to navigate the city 266 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 4: because I was leaving Chicago going to somewhere else and 267 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 4: I didn't know that area that was unfeigm and that 268 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 4: caused intense anxiety. I can say this now, but it 269 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 4: being you know, had this big bravado like I could 270 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 4: do it, but it took me a minute to really 271 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 4: navigate and understand how to do that, at least a 272 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 4: junior in college. And that was with having people on 273 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 4: campus that were considered mentors or people that was going 274 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 4: to look out for you because they. 275 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: Knew it's an overwhelming experience. 276 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 4: This is new, all of those things, and now add 277 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 4: to the mix of not having that or having a 278 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 4: subpar type of shepherding, that is again an inevitable conclusion 279 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 4: that you're going to go to a place that's going 280 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 4: to continue to dictate your parameters instead of learning how 281 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 4: to be the one to dictate your own parameters. 282 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. 283 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 3: One of the really shocking things that I confronted in 284 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 3: doing this book was how long these patterns have been cycling. 285 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: Right. 286 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 3: This is not some recent trend or sudden spike or anything. 287 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 3: This has been the case for decades, maybe for a century. 288 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 3: You know, we've only had foster care for a little 289 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 3: bit more than a century in the way that we 290 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 3: know foster care today. And it's been like this, like 291 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 3: the whole time, just sort of kids, so well, oh yeah, 292 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 3: we took you, We said it was going to be 293 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 3: safer for you, but oh well, and there's really no 294 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 3: kind of reckoning with the outcomes. This has been accepted 295 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 3: for decades, and I found that shocking. And the other thing, 296 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, but anyone who has been eighteen 297 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 3: at any point. I come on, what eighteen year old 298 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 3: can really support themselves with? You know, a well paying job? 299 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 3: And you know, like half a foster youth don't have 300 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 3: a high school diploma. They drop out. So say your 301 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 3: foster kid, say you didn't drop out. Say you're better 302 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 3: than most, right, say you got your high school diploma. Okay, 303 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 3: So what are you gonna do with a high school diploma? 304 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 3: And how are you going to support yourself and get 305 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 3: a job? You're going to need more than that for 306 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 3: a decent living wage. And I'm not talking about luxury. 307 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 3: I'm talking about just basic making your way. And anybody 308 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 3: who lives in a major city knows you can't really 309 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 3: support yourself on a minimum wage job. And that's what 310 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 3: you're gonna get an eighteen year old with a high 311 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 3: school diploma. So this is just reality. And then anyone 312 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 3: who's been a parent would say, yeah, my kid on 313 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 3: their own at eighteen is not going to work. Right. 314 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 3: Anybody who just takes a breath and thinks what happens 315 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 3: to an eighteen year old on their own? Come on, 316 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 3: I mean, it's really obvious what we're setting up here. 317 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 3: So we could talk about some solutions. 318 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, I was going to say, you know, we were 319 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 4: mentioning a little bit about your book about the incarceration factor. 320 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: What do you find when they're incarcerated? 321 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 4: Is there help available for them there or because I 322 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 4: think our society also has this delusion, because I noticed 323 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 4: when they're dealing with a house community members is that 324 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 4: there's solutions out there, their help out there, and they're 325 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 4: refusing help, and they're not understanding if they don't look 326 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 4: on with a keen eye, that the solutions are lacking 327 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 4: or in a wanting and you need to really break 328 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 4: it down to explain to them, like you know. 329 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: These are not really solutions. 330 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 4: These are solutions to hide the or the person or 331 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 4: the people, but not really solve the problem. 332 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: It's in the entirety. 333 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, the word solution is a problem here, right, because 334 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 3: these are not magic fixes exactly. It's not like, oh, 335 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 3: do this and do that and it's all good. It's 336 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 3: not like that. They are attempts to mitigate some of 337 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 3: the worst aspects. And that's what I mean, like we 338 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 3: kind of nibble at the edges, and I don't mean 339 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 3: to minimize the value of that. Any improvement is some improvement. Indeed, 340 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 3: So your question about services in lock up one of 341 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 3: the more interesting things in the book. So I'll just 342 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 3: quickly summarize, even though we're just talking about really serious 343 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 3: social policy questions here, the book is presented through the 344 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 3: eyes of six characters, six young people, six real people. 345 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 3: They're all real people, and they all are former foster youth. 346 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 3: One of them was still in foster care when we 347 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 3: started working together on this book. She was eighteen. She's 348 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 3: the youngest and she's just about to turn twenty one now. 349 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 3: And the oldest person is sixty years old and got 350 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 3: a life sentence very shortly out of Washington State foster care. 351 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 3: So that's the span, right, We've got somebody in their 352 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 3: late teens, early twenties and somebody sixty years old. The 353 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 3: point was to say, hey, this has been going on 354 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 3: a long time. This is generations of people. You know, 355 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 3: you got a baby boomer on one end, you got 356 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 3: what gen z or something on the other, and it's 357 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 3: still the same thing, right, Okay, So within that the 358 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 3: opening character and I want to emphasize I say character, 359 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 3: this is a real person, not based on truth, This 360 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 3: is an actual real person. This is journalism okay, right, 361 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 3: So she had been on the run from foster care. 362 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 3: As many many kids in foster care do. They run 363 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 3: from their places, and this doesn't mean they're actually running, 364 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 3: they're just not where they're supposed to be. They're out 365 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 3: and about. When she was on run, she was trafficked, 366 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 3: and she eventually ended up shooting a man in the head, 367 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 3: and she was arrested and charged with murder. I don't 368 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 3: want to give away too much of the book, but 369 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 3: one of the really fascinating things was, for a number 370 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:20,959 Speaker 3: of reasons, this young woman she was nineteen when I 371 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 3: met her, and when she was sentenced. She committed this 372 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 3: crime when she was sixteen, and then she sat in 373 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 3: juvie for a couple of years. After she got sentenced, 374 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 3: she had the opportunity, through an unusual Washington state program, 375 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 3: to go to a youth facility, even though by this 376 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 3: point she was twenty years old. And the idea was, oh, 377 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 3: you know, a youth facility will be more focused on rehabilitation, 378 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 3: and she'll get education and counseling and job training and 379 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 3: all this stuff. Right, Well, there are a lot of 380 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 3: problems with that program. However, for her, it had an 381 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 3: incredible transformative effect. And it wasn't because the services in 382 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 3: lock up were so good. What it was was stability. 383 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 3: She was actually in one place for several years where 384 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 3: she knew she would be fed, she would be safe, 385 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 3: no one was going to jump her, and she was 386 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 3: going to have the same adult case manager working with 387 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 3: her all the time. There was going to be stability, consistency, 388 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 3: and opportunity for some kind of human attachment to one 389 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 3: consistent person, and safety. Just those like basic level things 390 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 3: created such a transformation in this young person that the 391 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 3: argument her defense had attempted to make the argument that 392 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 3: state government, the state foster care system, was in some 393 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 3: way to blame partly culpable for her crime. And when 394 00:23:55,080 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 3: you saw the effect of a stable reality, not luxuryous, 395 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 3: not anything. In fact, the services were kind of crappy, 396 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 3: but it was simply the stability and safety, there was 397 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 3: a massive transformation. The rest of that story is, you know, 398 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 3: you'll have to read the book because it's not a 399 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 3: perfect Unicorns and Rainbow's story, of course, but I bring 400 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 3: it up to your point about services and lock up 401 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 3: sometimes they are in fact better than what young people 402 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 3: are getting in the child welfare system, which is a 403 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 3: pretty serious indictment. 404 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 4: Right, yes, yes, We'll be back with more from Claudia 405 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 4: afters dis break. 406 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 1: Welcome back. This is theo Henderson Lewenian House. 407 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 4: Here's the rest of my interview with Claudia wrote, you 408 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 4: were emageing earlier about there are some solutions that you 409 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 4: wanted to bring up or at some well, recommendations. 410 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 1: What would you recommend? 411 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 3: So there are a couple of things going on regarding 412 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 3: foster care. There are some efforts because you know, one 413 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 3: of the most damaging aspects of foster care is the 414 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 3: like I said before, the impermanence, right, So there are 415 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 3: some efforts to work to increase attachment of the young 416 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 3: person with a stable adult, which really matters far more 417 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 3: than we as a society have kind of admitted. It 418 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 3: matters for brain science, brain development, like chemical level stuff, 419 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 3: and it has a direct effect on behavior or frankly, 420 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 3: lack of being able to control your behavior. The lack 421 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 3: of attachment has sort of chemical brain chemical ramifications. There's 422 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 3: a little bit on brain chemistry in the book, just 423 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 3: a little not too deep, so addressing that finding ways 424 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 3: to create more attachment. So a lot of people may 425 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 3: have heard about kinship care This is sort of the 426 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 3: current leading edge where social workers will try to place 427 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 3: a foster youth with a relative or you know, even 428 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 3: a CLO's family friend or like a teacher who might 429 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 3: have a close connection with that kid. Even that, even 430 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 3: placing kids with relatives used to be until quite recently, absolutely, 431 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 3: if not forbidden, strongly discouraged, because the idea was, oh, 432 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 3: if you if you come from a family with problems, 433 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 3: you should obliterate any trace of that and then you'll, 434 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 3: like you said, you'll go on to this shining rainbow life, 435 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 3: which is just absurd because it's not how people's hearts 436 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 3: and minds work, right. They have attachment, They have bonds, 437 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 3: even to parents who were imperfect or even abusive. I mean, 438 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 3: there's a guy in the book whose mother tried to 439 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 3: kill him and he was still running away from foster 440 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 3: placement that he liked to try to find her on 441 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 3: the streets of Seattle. This is what it is like. 442 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 3: Human attachment. The bond thing is very, very strong. And 443 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 3: I think that foster care has not been the structure 444 00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 3: of it as a system has not been a lot 445 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 3: with the way brains develop, the way kids develop into people. 446 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 3: So this issue about attachment and that the system undercuts 447 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 3: it and needs to build it is one thing. The 448 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 3: other thing is efforts like universal basic income that California 449 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 3: is I would say, sort of in the lead on 450 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 3: attempting that again really really recent. I think it was 451 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 3: just in twenty twenty two, right, the California put this 452 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 3: into play with very modest monthly income for young people 453 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 3: who are twenty one and on their own, and it's 454 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 3: a time limited thing. It's like a year or eighteen months. 455 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 3: I mean a lot of people are really skeptical about 456 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 3: universal basic income, right, I know that, and I can 457 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 3: be skeptical. But the assumption that people just want to 458 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 3: sit around and get a six hundred dollars check every 459 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 3: month or one thousand dollars every month, I mean, it's 460 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 3: not a lot of money and that's going to be 461 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 3: cool and fun and just sit around and like party 462 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 3: with their six hundred dollars. I mean it's ridiculous. That 463 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 3: is not Again, it is not how people operate. People 464 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,959 Speaker 3: want dignity, they want to feel value, they want to 465 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 3: feel like they're doing something. This is again like a 466 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 3: basic human thing. Most people don't want to just sit 467 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 3: around and get high for their entire lives, you know, 468 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 3: like people want to be doing something and I think that, 469 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 3: I mean, I haven't gone super deep on universal basic income, 470 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 3: but from what I do know medium deep, it does 471 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 3: appear pretty promising. 472 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 4: And should just see you mentioned that because also there's 473 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 4: also something that's going on in the unhoused community that 474 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 4: there has been pilot programs that have giving out maybe 475 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 4: a couple of more thousand dollars to unhouse people to 476 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 4: be able to find the ways, to find creative solutions 477 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 4: to get them off the street. And contrary to popular belief, 478 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 4: they use that money to get try to get off 479 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 4: the street, find ways to be you know, existing bills, 480 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 4: try to save the money. They did all of the 481 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 4: things that anyone that despite what people say, people just 482 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 4: like being out there, but if you don't give them 483 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 4: the dignity and also a solution that they feel that 484 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 4: they can take part in and feel like it's not 485 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 4: you're being judged to create your own creative solution. Like 486 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 4: with me, when I was in how it was very 487 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 4: difficult for me to get the purchase that and strangely 488 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 4: enough what helped me was creating this show and from 489 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 4: there I got received donations and From there, I was 490 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 4: able to start to navigate and make decisions that, oh, 491 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 4: now I can go to this little hotel, I can 492 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 4: go to this pod share, I can do this, I 493 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 4: can save up a little money to be able to 494 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 4: weigh my way out of the situation. And I think 495 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 4: that's one of the things that's missing with these, you know, 496 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 4: band aid type of solutions, where you just do insight safe, 497 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 4: where Karen Bass knows that she can't keep these people indefinitely, 498 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 4: but you don't give any funding or give any kind 499 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 4: of way of dem to be able to make dignify 500 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 4: housing solutions, dignified solutions to their situation. You're going to 501 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 4: have a revolving door. And it seems like that sounds 502 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 4: like that as promising for the youth, because I'm very 503 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 4: excited to hear that hopefully they can get an increase 504 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 4: in the amount and extension on the program because you know, 505 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 4: one year is not going to be enough. 506 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, Or that it spreads to more states. 507 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 508 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 3: I don't hear about it too much anywhere else. I'm 509 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 3: sure some other state is trying it, but mostly it 510 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 3: seems to be mostly happening in California, Okay, And you know, Okay, 511 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 3: so that's like a Petri dish, right, Like, that's an experiment. 512 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 3: We can look at it and see. I hope that 513 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 3: we will as a society. I hope we will. I 514 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 3: hope we will pay attention to the results in an 515 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 3: intelligent way. 516 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: Right. 517 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 3: Nothing is ever going to be magic perfection, but there 518 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 3: are clues that you can use for what works and 519 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 3: build on them. I mean, I'm preaching to the choir here, right, 520 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 3: you know this, yes, yes, But like Wards of the State, 521 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 3: one of the young people in it is this teenager. 522 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 3: She's the one who was eighteen when we started. Name 523 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 3: is Tina. She was like living on the subways in 524 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 3: New York City when she was sixteen years old, foster kid, homeless, 525 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 3: in foster care. Right, she was sort of bouncing around 526 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 3: in foster care, and she was in foster homes, and 527 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 3: she was in group homes, and then she was back 528 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 3: with her mom. Because the system really pushes very very 529 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 3: hard for even though the system is built around in permanence, 530 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 3: it pushes nominally for what it calls stability, and that 531 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 3: is either reunite with your biological family or get adopted. 532 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 3: But there are a lot of kids who are not 533 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 3: going to be adopted, especially if you go into foster 534 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 3: care later if you're an adolescent. Most people only want 535 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 3: to adopt little little kids or babies, or there are 536 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 3: some biological families that are not safe to go back to, 537 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 3: and that was her case. She was returned to her mom. 538 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 3: The situation at home was no better. It was a 539 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 3: pretty pretty rough situation at home. She took off than there. 540 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 3: She was in New York City and she was in 541 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 3: the city's sort of youth shelter, which is for foster kids, 542 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 3: and for various reasons that are in the book, she 543 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 3: was sort of on the run from there as well. 544 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 3: And there she was on the subways in New York City. 545 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 3: A bunch of stuff happened, including crimes that she committed. 546 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 3: She ended up sort of in this court program, which 547 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 3: she did, and completed a court ordered jobs program, which 548 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 3: she did. She's a super bright girl. This girl is smart. 549 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 3: But when she turned eighteen, the facility where she was 550 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 3: living this was now in Ohio. She was sent to Ohio. 551 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 3: She did this court ordered thing. She was living in 552 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 3: a facility. She turns eighteen and they're like okay, goodbye, 553 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 3: you know, like they can't keep her and she had 554 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 3: nowhere to go or do you think she was homeless? 555 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 3: I mean there she was, took a bus to the city, 556 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 3: lands on the street, homeless, right, And this is a 557 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 3: foster care system, like attempting to do something but not really. 558 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 3: There are so many gaps where kids fall through. And 559 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 3: that's this girl. I guess I should say young woman. 560 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 3: She's twenty one now. 561 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: But this is a. 562 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 3: Tough kid, smart girl, really smart, and she's you know, 563 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 3: sleeping in the subway. 564 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 4: You know, I'm from Chicago originally, and I could tell 565 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 4: you subways sleeping. It's you take a gamble in many 566 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 4: respects of being in house, but like on the subway particularly. 567 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 4: I know you've heard about the Reese's story where the 568 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 4: unhoused woman was set on fire. Sleeping and things that 569 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 4: you take a serious chance. You know, you can never 570 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 4: really be getting the rest that you would if you 571 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 4: were in a house place, because you have to have 572 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 4: your high beams on me. 573 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 3: That's exactly what she would say. It's profoundly unsafe. This 574 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 3: is a tough girl, not afraid to fight, and she 575 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 3: did not feel safe and she was not safe. 576 00:33:58,880 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 577 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, other thing I would say about the book that 578 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 3: really strikes me. I mean, there's some tough stories in 579 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 3: this book, yes, but what I see our survival stories. 580 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,839 Speaker 3: All of these people are fighting every day, not just 581 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 3: for themselves, but to get better, to survive better, to 582 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 3: do better. And every one of them talked to me 583 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 3: for the same reason. Every one of them, you know, 584 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 3: shared their files with me, their stories because whatever decisions 585 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 3: they've made that people may question right crimes that they 586 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 3: have committed, or weird twisted paths they've been on, or whatever. 587 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 3: You know, however you want to debate their decisions, every 588 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 3: one of them talked to me because they wanted to 589 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 3: make the system better for the kids coming up behind them. 590 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,959 Speaker 3: And you know that matters. That's a powerful statement, I think, 591 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 3: not only about their own kind of development, like emotional development. 592 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 3: I mean, a lot of kids come out of foster 593 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 3: care with stunted empathy, right, And one of the guys 594 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,359 Speaker 3: in the book talks quite a bit about that, But 595 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 3: they have it in some way. They certainly do have 596 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 3: it for all the other foster kids coming up behind them. 597 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 3: They absolutely do have empathy. They do have dawning self 598 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,280 Speaker 3: awareness about themselves as part of a much larger system. 599 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 3: I was really moved by that in reporting the book. 600 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 4: It just sounds so interesting and so intriguing. Where do 601 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 4: we find a book. 602 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 3: It's everywhere, So you can just go on Amazon or 603 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 3: Barnes and Noble or bookshop dot org. If you prefer 604 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 3: that route, which is a nonprofit route, you can just 605 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 3: get it from your local independent bookseller. So wards of 606 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 3: the state, the long shadow of American foster care. I 607 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 3: call it the long shadow because it's not like you 608 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 3: go into foster care and you are taking care of 609 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 3: through your childhood and then off you go into your beautiful, 610 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 3: shining life. It's not like that at all. It hangs 611 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 3: over you, right, either with a criminal record or just 612 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,799 Speaker 3: kind of attachment problems that we just talked about. I mean, 613 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 3: it is shaping the lives of people who have been 614 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 3: through it even. I mean, there are some people in 615 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,359 Speaker 3: the book who have gone on to be hugely successful 616 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 3: going to the White House or lawyers. Right. There are 617 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 3: some people in the book who are who have been 618 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,760 Speaker 3: quite successful despite a youth in foster care, and yet 619 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 3: they still are shaped by this shadow of the system 620 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 3: hanging over them. It is a big deal, and I 621 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 3: don't think in this country we have reckoned with it 622 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:35,280 Speaker 3: nearly enough? 623 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 4: What caused you to write this book? Because you say 624 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 4: that you've been doing this for some time. What was 625 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 4: the inspiration that really made you want to take a 626 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,840 Speaker 4: deeper look? Because like we know, there's wall is there, 627 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 4: so you know, you seem like you were able to 628 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 4: overcome that. 629 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: How did you say, I'm going to get past this. 630 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 4: Wall, climb this wall, or kick the wall down to 631 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 4: find these these participants or people that want to share 632 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 4: their stories. 633 00:36:58,120 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 3: It was a bit of an accident. I did not 634 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 3: planned to write a book about foster care. How it 635 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,240 Speaker 3: happened was I was sitting in court. I was there 636 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,879 Speaker 3: for that young woman, Mary Anne's sentencing. She was going 637 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 3: to be sentenced for murder. I actually wasn't even there 638 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 3: for her case. I was there because I was maybe 639 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,759 Speaker 3: kind of interested in a forensic psychologist who was going 640 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 3: to testify as to what he thought her punishment should be, 641 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,800 Speaker 3: what should her sentence be. I was kind of interested 642 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 3: in his work. I thought maybe I would write about that. 643 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 3: He ended up never testifying, he was never called, and 644 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 3: the sentencing itself, which was supposed to be like a 645 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 3: two hour proceeding one day, ended up for various reasons, 646 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 3: stretching over three days, and by the end of it, 647 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,799 Speaker 3: I was quite riveted on this girl's case, and I realized, Oh, 648 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 3: this is not just a crime story. This is a 649 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,759 Speaker 3: much bigger story. This is a foster care story. And 650 00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 3: I had covered child welfare as a journalist, but I 651 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 3: I had not ever looked intensively at adolescens in foster care, 652 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,800 Speaker 3: older kids. So that was the impetus. I really wanted 653 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 3: to understand what was it like to be on the run, 654 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 3: What is that experience? Like? I wanted to tell it 655 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 3: through her eyes? How do you think? How do you 656 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:20,319 Speaker 3: understand what you're doing? How did she see herself? I 657 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,320 Speaker 3: really wanted to get that. And the deeper I got, 658 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 3: the bigger it got, and the more I realized, oh, 659 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 3: oh wow, there's this whole system that's like feeding kids 660 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 3: into locked cells, and that to me seemed like a 661 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 3: big deal and worthy of a book. 662 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 1: Outstanding. 663 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 4: Well, I promised you I wouldn't keep you too long, 664 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:43,720 Speaker 4: and I'm trying to keep my word. 665 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:44,720 Speaker 1: Is it okay? 666 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,360 Speaker 4: If I had to invite you back, you know, to updates, 667 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,320 Speaker 4: or if you do another book on these kind of things, 668 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 4: I will hopefully invite you back to get your insights. 669 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,320 Speaker 3: On it anytime. Invite me back anytime. I've really enjoyed 670 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 3: this conversation. 671 00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:58,319 Speaker 1: Be as well. 672 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 4: Thank you so much to Claudia for her time and 673 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 4: for her work. You can learn more about her and 674 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 4: purchase the book at the Lincoln the description. Now, if 675 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 4: you have a story you'd like to share that's local 676 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 4: or international, please reach out to me at Widianhouse at 677 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 4: gmail dot com or widian House on Instagram. Once again, 678 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 4: thank you for listening. May we again meet in the 679 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 4: light of understanding. Widian House is a production of iHeartRadio. 680 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 4: It is written, hosted, and created by me Theo Henderson, 681 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 4: Our producers Jamie Loftus, Hailey Fager, Katie Fischel, and Lyra Smith. 682 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: Our editor is Adam Wand, our. 683 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 4: Engineer is Joel Jerome, and our local art is also 684 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 4: by Katie Fischer. 685 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening.