1 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's Bill Courtney with an army of normal folks. 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: And we continue now with part two of our conversation 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: with Paul Young, right after these brief messages from our 4 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: generous sponsors. Okay, now we return to Paul, who'd committed 5 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: to seeing a counselor for a year and a half 6 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,599 Speaker 1: to work through all of this mess and trauma. 7 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 2: About four months later, I almost bailed out. I planned 8 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 2: a trip to Mexico City, which I'd never been to, 9 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 2: but it was far enough away that my kids would 10 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 2: not find my body. 11 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: I gave up. 12 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 2: It was too hard, and two friends showed up. One 13 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 2: is a good friend of mine, has been since before 14 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 2: Kim and I were married. His childhood is unbelievably horrendous, 15 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 2: unbelievably he is an alcoholic who loves me, who loves Jesus. 16 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 2: And he shows up unbeknownst to me, to Kim and 17 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 2: says to Kim, I'm not here to tell you you 18 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 2: need to reconcile. I just have a sense in my 19 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 2: heart that if you hit him one more time right now, 20 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 2: you know, not physically, but with words. How could you 21 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 2: do this to someone? How could you do this to 22 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 2: our family? How could you do this to their family? 23 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 2: If you hit him right now one more time, you're 24 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 2: going to kill him. He didn't know that I was 25 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: on the edge and a woman who's a friend of 26 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 2: ours came to me. They didn't know where I was at. 27 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 2: They didn't know about where each other was at. And 28 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 2: she says, Paul, just tell me where you are right now. 29 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 2: I said, you want to know where I am? I've 30 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 2: been like a mile away from the abyss, and I've 31 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 2: been Kim's beenje Tammer, Mariine in the chest, pushing me back, 32 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 2: and I have my heels on the edge of the abyss. 33 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 2: And she spins me around and says, look at it. 34 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: And I look at. 35 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 2: It and it's there's nothing there, and I lose all 36 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 2: my hope. You want to know who I am. I'm 37 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,679 Speaker 2: this little dried up piece of that's on the edge 38 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 2: of the abyss and the wind is blowing and I'm 39 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 2: terrified that when it's done blowing there won't be anything left. 40 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 2: And she says, Paul, in that little pile, there's a seed. 41 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:48,399 Speaker 2: I'm like, there's a seed. What do you mean there's 42 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: a seed? And then I think, you know, if there's 43 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 2: even a seed that is so small I can't even 44 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 2: see it. If there is a seed, something living could grow. 45 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,239 Speaker 2: And then I think, you know, seeds, they grow good 46 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 2: in this kind of stuff, don't they. It's exactly the thought, 47 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 2: and all my hope came back, and I went back 48 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 2: to Scott, told him what was going on, and then 49 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 2: we we worked hard. I've never worked as hard as 50 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 2: I did. And nine months into this, I come in, 51 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: you know, because every day I'd call Kim because it 52 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 2: was the next right thing, and she every day would say, yeah, 53 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 2: right whatever. And nine months into the scuck meets me 54 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 2: at his office and he said, Paul, you're done. And 55 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 2: I said, you told me it would take it, and 56 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 2: exactly it's what I said. And he said, we talk 57 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 2: about you. I'm sure that breaks some kind of client thing, 58 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 2: but he said, we talk about you because we have 59 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 2: never seen anybody work this hard and stick with it. 60 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 2: But it was life or death for me. If I 61 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 2: couldn't find a way to change, why would I want 62 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 2: to keep doing damage to people, especially those that I 63 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 2: was learning to love. And that started an eleven year journey, 64 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 2: eleven years of learning how to trust, how to trust 65 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 2: people because I never had been able to trust. I 66 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 2: was a control freak. I manipulated relationships. I was afraid 67 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 2: to take the risk of trust. And slowly, over eleven 68 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 2: years and in that journey, I learned to trust God. 69 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 2: But it required a total change in my understanding of 70 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 2: who God is. And it took eleven years for Kim 71 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 2: and I to heal when she would learn to trust. 72 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 2: You know, forgiveness it's for the sake of the purpose 73 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 2: of the victim. 74 00:04:55,200 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: No, I've said it a thousand times. Forgiveness us is 75 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: so much more important for the forgiver than the forgiven, 76 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: the unburdening your heart. 77 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 2: I'm yeah, yeah, for it, yes, and I totally agree. 78 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: It's for the sake of the one who forgives. And 79 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 2: if you're waiting for the person who harmed you to 80 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 2: change before you forgive, it won't work because they they're 81 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 2: dead sometimes, you know, and they don't care, right. So 82 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 2: forgiveness is for the sake of the one who's been harmed, 83 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 2: because they don't need to carry around the weight and 84 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 2: the poison that continues to harm their own heart as 85 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: well as everybody around them. Reconciliation is for the sake 86 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: of the perpetrator, but it requires a whole lot of things, 87 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 2: like confession, becoming a truth teller, dealing with the consequences, 88 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 2: learning to ask for forgiveness, not just apologize, because apologize 89 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 2: keeps the power. It's just an announcement. 90 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,799 Speaker 1: We have to say this for all listening, I'm sorry. 91 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: It is incomplete, inefficient, and won't work. It is I 92 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: am sorry, I was wrong. Will you please forgive me? 93 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: And I commit to you to try to change the 94 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: behavior that wronged you in the first place. A proper 95 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: apology is a four point deal, and if you are 96 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 1: unwilling to hit all of those four points, then don't 97 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: even try to say I'm sorry in the first place, 98 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 1: because really, all you're trying to do is make yourself 99 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: feel better. 100 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that you're announcing that you got caught. 101 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: That's it. I am acknowledging you caught me. I'm sorry, 102 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: I'm sorry you caught, and you keep the power. We're 103 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: singing off the same shoot of music there, Paul, because 104 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: everybody says, I hear the question all the time if 105 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: your child was killed by a murderer, which ironically is 106 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,040 Speaker 1: a theme that you highlight. Well that we're going to 107 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: get two in a second. But how do you forgive 108 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: that person? And I've always I've always not always, but 109 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: I now understand there's a difference in forgiveness and a pardon. 110 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: You can forgive, but you still pay the consequences for 111 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: you actions. YEP. 112 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: And when reconciliation is an absolute miracle, it's an absolute 113 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 2: miracle because even the changing over time, and so eleven 114 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 2: years it took for Kim to see the evidence of 115 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 2: the change so that she would trust me again. 116 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: She's a phenomenal woman. To hang in there, Len, you 117 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: have no idea, Okay, So at the end of this 118 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: we've established you right the shock. 119 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 2: In the twelfth year. 120 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: In the twelfth year, YEP won't get published. Twenty seven 121 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: people passed. Then finally, and then it becomes this book. 122 00:07:55,880 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, it becomes this crazy, real, unbelievable humor of God thing. 123 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: A question I haven't heard asked of you, and I've 124 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: watched a few of your interviews that I have been 125 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: dying to ask you. And the reason I've been dying 126 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: to ask you is because I have felt and had 127 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: and I felt the stug and I've had to fight 128 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: the stug. And without Lisa, I don't know that I 129 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: would have been successful. Now I know that story, having 130 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 1: gone through all that you've gone through, having had been 131 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: an entertainer in your life, and every entertainer, if we're honest, 132 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: relishism the law. How dangerous was the success of this 133 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: book to you? 134 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 2: It wasn't. 135 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 1: And here's why I can't wait to hear this. 136 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:57,719 Speaker 2: By the time those eleven years were up, already established. 137 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 2: The way another person would put it is has this 138 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: book changed you? And I would say only in one way. 139 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 2: But here's the things that were in place before I 140 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 2: wrote the book. As a result of this eleven years, 141 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,079 Speaker 2: my identity, my worth, my value, my significance, my security, 142 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 2: my meaning, my purpose, my destiny, my community, and my 143 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 2: love all in place. The book didn't give me any 144 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 2: of those things. The book doesn't give me an identity, 145 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 2: right it could tempt me to. But if I'd been 146 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 2: in my thirties and something like this had happened, it would, 147 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 2: oh my gosh, you know, nothing in terms of my 148 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: relationships would have survived, right right. It would have empowered 149 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 2: all my narcissism and all my destructive behavior. 150 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: And think of all the secrets you could have told that. 151 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 2: Oh, I know, so all of those things were in 152 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 2: place and were not at all hurt by this. The 153 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 2: only thing the book gave me that I didn't have 154 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 2: was this constant invitation to walk on the holy ground 155 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 2: of other people's stories. And I cannot express how incredible 156 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: that is. 157 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. We now return to Paul talking 158 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: about what he caused the privilege of walking on the 159 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: holy ground of other people's stories. 160 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 2: I'm on a flight from Atlanta to Memphis, and I 161 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: sit next to a man and we start an hour 162 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 2: fifty three minute whatever it is about, an hour long 163 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 2: conversation that is deep and beautiful, and he begins to 164 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 2: tell me about his story and what's going on in 165 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 2: his world. And it's the kind of thing where you 166 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 2: just want to take your shoes off, because every human 167 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 2: being is a story, and that story is riddled with 168 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 2: the presence of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There 169 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 2: is this respect by God for your personal agency, and 170 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 2: God works in such a way in your life where 171 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 2: that personal agency will be respected, will not be harmed, 172 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 2: and God will heal you in a way that doesn't 173 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 2: add damage to you. And so it's going to take 174 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 2: as long as it takes. 175 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: From a football coach, I say the same thing in 176 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: different words. I say, there's a story under every helmet. 177 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,839 Speaker 1: There you go, so. 178 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 2: I don't need notoriety. In fact, it's sort of a cross, 179 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 2: and you would understand. 180 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: It is absolutely across. And I don't expect anybody to 181 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 1: fully understand that unless you've experienced it. 182 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 2: Right, I don't need a platform. By the time this 183 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:13,239 Speaker 2: all happened, I was so content being present and responding, 184 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 2: one moment at a time to the person or the 185 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 2: situation that was in front of me. And I will 186 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 2: live the rest of my life learning how to do that, 187 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 2: because that's where real life is. It's not in some 188 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 2: future tripping imagination that's shot through with fear right. I 189 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 2: used to go to my own funeral. I used to 190 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 2: be pissed off that nobody else went to it. 191 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: I'll show up. 192 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh thank you for that, though, But you didn't 193 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,559 Speaker 2: show up when we didn't know each other. There, No, 194 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 2: I know, but you wouldn't have. 195 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: I would have. I promise you I would have. All Right, 196 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 1: we're going to get to the supporting greatness part because 197 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: there's three people I want to give you an opportunity 198 00:12:54,320 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: to celebrate who have supported the greatness of what you've achieved. 199 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: And I know, I know, I don't know a sense 200 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: that you're like me. And then when someone says you've 201 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: achieved greatness, you really almost bristle at it. 202 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 2: But I do you have, and in the way that 203 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 2: the world sucks after. 204 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: Well, and in the way that the world views it. 205 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: But it gives you an opportunity to celebrate the people 206 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: to help you achieve that that we're going to do. 207 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 2: It's like I am a Christian when it's helpful. 208 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: I have one more question before we get to that, 209 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: to fully unpack who you are and how you think. 210 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: Not fully, we can't do that. It's been possible four 211 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: more days. But to fully unpack the questions I have 212 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: about you is the shock pretty clearly leads the reader 213 00:13:51,760 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: to this conclusion when reading it. The movie certainly me 214 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: last night to reconsider my thoughts about the book, and then, 215 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: having watched a few of your interviews, you allude a 216 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: few times to it. And I'm just going to ask you. 217 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: I gather and if I'm wrong, please tell me. But 218 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: I really want to hear your thoughts on this. You 219 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: have a what feels to me. I don't know if 220 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: the word aversion is the right word or disdain or 221 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: I don't know the right word now, I hope you 222 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: will give it to me. But you clearly distinguish the 223 00:14:54,400 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: relationship between religion and grace and faith. That is completely true. 224 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: Unpack that a little bit. 225 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 2: Religion, and I'm using it in a pejorative sense, because 226 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 2: you can talk about it in a good sense too, 227 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 2: But the way that a lot of us have religion 228 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 2: becomes a performance oriented, systematic, structural based invitation to something 229 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 2: that clouds and restricts the truth of who you are. 230 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 2: So much of religion is a is a human trafficking 231 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 2: organization have interesting yeah, because what they need the organization 232 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 2: becomes the reason for its existence, not the love of 233 00:15:55,320 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 2: the people that you encounter. And so a gopa, Yeah, 234 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 2: it's the agape is is under the ownership of the 235 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 2: structure because it's the structure that needs to stay safe, 236 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 2: and so it becomes intrenchable. It doesn't move easily. And 237 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 2: the truth is that in living relationships, like in a family, 238 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: a healthy family will move at the speed of the slowest, 239 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 2: but in a religion, it moves at the speed of 240 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 2: the vision, or the speed of the mission, or the 241 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 2: speed of the person. Yeah yeah, or the leadership, and 242 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 2: what you end up having is that everybody begins to hide. 243 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 2: They don't deal with their stuff because it's not safe. 244 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 2: Nobody is moving at the speed of the slowest. The harmed. 245 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 2: In fact, the harm tend to get shunted off because 246 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 2: they're not part unless you know there's for a while, 247 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 2: and well, will pick an ideal and then do that 248 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 2: for a while will help in that part of town. 249 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: So, do you have disdain for organized religion or do 250 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: you have concern. 251 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 2: For No, it's not disdain. It's a recognition that in 252 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 2: the world we have a tendency to create systems that 253 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 2: impede relationships and love. 254 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: So I would argue that organized religion in some forms 255 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: have been one of the larger mechanisms that has reduced 256 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:42,360 Speaker 1: the number of faithful in our country today, because the 257 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: the mantra that believe like me or you're going to 258 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: Hell is not really a very soluble one. 259 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 2: No, and so such a great question. The Greek word 260 00:17:53,800 --> 00:18:00,439 Speaker 2: for accusation or accuser is categorizomai or category. It's goro 261 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 2: where we get the English word categorize. Okay, so when yeah, yes, 262 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 2: that's another form of it, and uh. 263 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 1: I can't even say philanthropy. I'm pretty pretty proud of 264 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: saying categor. 265 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're doing great. So so when you begin to 266 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 2: categorize people as us and them, which structure tends to do, 267 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 2: you're you're involved in a kind of accusation that creates 268 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 2: us them divisions. 269 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: And in that interesting because that feels like politics, it. 270 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 2: Feels like all kinds of things. I have all these 271 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 2: friends on death row in Nashville, right, they're my friends, 272 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 2: and they've been my friends for five six years. I 273 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 2: don't particularly like the word ministry because it's smacks of 274 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 2: separation and superiority. You know, I'm coming, and that's my hand. 275 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: Organized religion. 276 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, it does so two things, two thoughts. One is 277 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 2: people are leaving organized religs in order to save their faith. Yeah, 278 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 2: you know. And and that's a rough one. Second thought, 279 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,719 Speaker 2: my friends on death row are in a category of 280 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 2: animal or unlovable or whatever. And I've got a friend 281 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 2: Terry King, the first, the first friend that I met. 282 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 2: We have a mutual friend that wanted me to sign 283 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 2: a book for him, and I said no, I said, 284 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 2: you get me in there and I'll go with you. 285 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 2: And that started this whole chain of relationships. And uh 286 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 2: so once in a while, like I was at Saint 287 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 2: Henry's in Nashville and I was speaking I don't know, 288 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 2: six seven hundred people and I had Terry call me, 289 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 2: right and so nobody knew that Terry was going to 290 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 2: call me. But he calls me. He has thirty minutes 291 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 2: on the phone, and I put him up, put him 292 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 2: up to the microphone, and I begin to ask him 293 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 2: questions and he begins to respond. And Terry is one 294 00:19:54,960 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 2: of the most humble, loving people that you will ever meet. 295 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 2: On death row. And I watched the room, and I 296 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 2: watched Terry change the room because suddenly you weren't dealing 297 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 2: with a category, you were actually dealing with a human being. 298 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 2: And I was talking to the guys about how my 299 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 2: relationship with my dad and he died almost two years ago, 300 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 2: and he died at ninety two. On his eightieth birthday, 301 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 2: I was there and he blew something up like he 302 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 2: always did, and I went for a walk and I 303 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 2: was so angry. It was in British Columbia during winter, 304 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 2: because his birthday is on December tenth, and I didn't 305 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 2: even wear a coat and couldn't field them. I was 306 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 2: so ticked off, and I felt the presence of God 307 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 2: in my heart, and they weren't saying anything, you know, 308 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 2: the Father, son or Holy Spirit until for a while. 309 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 2: And then I hear, your dad he hasn't known how 310 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 2: to be a father for sixty years. You think he's 311 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 2: gonna he's gonna change. I go, like I know, And 312 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 2: then I hear, if it's okay, how about if I 313 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 2: be all that to you and more? And my response 314 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 2: was that's not enough. I want my dad to love me. 315 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 2: I want my dad. And in that those those little bits, 316 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 2: I suddenly realized something I thought I had forgiven my dad. 317 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 2: But I kept a set of expectations that he learned 318 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 2: how to act a certain way, and I planted those 319 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 2: minds in every field I let him on, but he 320 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 2: didn't know where they were, and eventually he would step 321 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 2: on one and blow things up. And so it was 322 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 2: the expectations that kept him locked away. 323 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: Gyronically in a very high form of thinking is a 324 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: form of manipulation, absolutely, which you don't want to do. 325 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: But evil allows you to follow that path even when 326 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: you may not even know yourself. You're following it until 327 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: it exposes itself to you. 328 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 2: That's brilliant and it's right. 329 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:21,360 Speaker 1: We'll be right back now we return to the complicated 330 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: way Paul viewed his father. 331 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 2: I have two photo albums in my inside house. One 332 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 2: is predominant, it's easily accessible, and it's a photo album 333 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:41,120 Speaker 2: of all the ways my dad failed. Wow, Okay, all 334 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 2: the ways, all the worst things, all the ways he 335 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 2: harmed me. Right, there's another photo album that I don't 336 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 2: want to look at. It's in a little cupboard that's 337 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 2: cobwebby and all that kind of stuff, and it's those 338 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 2: things that he did. 339 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: Right. It's like, because are you hanging onto the pain 340 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: in the anger so much that you don't want to 341 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: reveal to yourself the things he did? 342 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 2: Well, that's exactly right. So the ways that in the 343 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 2: middle of the night he got up and went and 344 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 2: helped somebody, the time that he maybe the only time 345 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 2: he came and heard me speak. But as I was 346 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 2: shaking his hand as he was leaving, he leaned over 347 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 2: and said, that was the greatest sermon I've ever heard 348 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 2: in my life. 349 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: See, but see, those things don't agree with the narrative 350 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: you have. That's exactly right, And you're not allowed to 351 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,959 Speaker 1: hang on to your anger and and he perpetuate all 352 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: of that, and he's acknowledged the good. 353 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 2: He's not allowed to change. Right, I've got him locked 354 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 2: into a seat cell. 355 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: Step in the minefield. 356 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 2: You sure can because the minefield I can go see 357 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 2: he is still an sob right. And and I was 358 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 2: talking to the guys on death Row and one of 359 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 2: the things they say, it is a horrible thing to 360 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 2: only be known for the worst day of your life. 361 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 2: And so I was talking to them about what I 362 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 2: do with my dad, and they said, that is exactly 363 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 2: how we're stuck. We're only known for the worst day 364 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: of our lives, and the justice system keeps them locked 365 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 2: up in that photograph, no matter how much they change, 366 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 2: no matter how much work they do. Yeah, And so 367 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 2: what I did was, because of all of these things, 368 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 2: I let my dad become something more than my dad, 369 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 2: something greater than my dad. I let him become a 370 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 2: human being. And when that happened and I released him 371 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 2: from the expectations, things started changing. And the beauty of 372 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 2: that was a human being is a greater you know, 373 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 2: A dad is a subcategory of being human. Human is greater. 374 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 2: And when I released my dad from expectations, my forgiveness 375 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 2: process finished, and all of a sudden, his story mattered. 376 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 2: All of a sudden, listening to him mattered, right, It 377 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 2: wasn't like he was ready to fail. And about a 378 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 2: month before he died and he's still I mean, we 379 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 2: still were working on language, you know, we weren't going deep. 380 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 2: But I told him, I want to ask you a 381 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 2: question every time that we talk, something that I've always wondered, 382 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 2: and he was all for it. And I'd only got 383 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 2: one question out before he died. But in a conversation 384 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,959 Speaker 2: I called him up and he started the conversation the 385 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 2: way he always had done when there was a tragedy. 386 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 2: The three phone calls I got from my dad was 387 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 2: when my eighteen year old brother was killed, when my 388 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,719 Speaker 2: five year old niece was killed the day after her 389 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 2: fifth birthday, and when my sister got pregnant out of wedlock, 390 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 2: which was you know, in my world, that was as 391 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 2: big as a death. And and he's always started those 392 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 2: there's something I need to tell you. That's how he 393 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 2: started those conversations. And in this one he said, Paul, 394 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 2: there's something that I need to tell you. And he said, 395 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: I said, Dad, he goes, no, no, no, you really 396 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 2: really really need to listen to me. This is really important. 397 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 2: You need to listen. I said, Okay, Dad, he goes. 398 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 2: You need to hear me. I really, really, really am 399 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 2: proud of you. I'm proud of the man you are. 400 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 2: I'm proud of the husband you are. I'm proud of 401 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 2: the father you are. I'm proud of the way you've 402 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 2: touched the world, and I really really love you. Now, 403 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: if I had those expectations still, i'd have said it's 404 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 2: about time. But I didn't have them anymore. And when 405 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 2: you learn to live without expectations, everything becomes a gift. 406 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: And candidly, what do we deserve? 407 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 2: What are we entitled to? 408 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:57,640 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, damnation the first sin. And if if we 409 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: recognize that about ourselves, and every good thing that does 410 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: happen is a revelation of a blessing. 411 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 2: So what's the truth about you? What's the deepest, deepest, 412 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 2: deepest truth about who you are? 413 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: You're asking me, Yes, what is the deepest, deepest truth 414 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: about who I am? Yes, I'm a child of God. 415 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 2: Okay, so you're not a piece of crap. 416 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:23,199 Speaker 1: You know. I love that. 417 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 2: That's great, you know, because you're made in the image 418 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 2: of God. And being a child of God means you 419 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 2: have God's dna, His divine nature is woven in you. 420 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 2: That means that everything that is true about God, except 421 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 2: things like you know, omniscience and eternal and all that 422 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 2: is true about you. You know what that means. And 423 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 2: here's what happened. Kim didn't know about my addiction to porn, 424 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 2: and I hated it. I hated it since I was 425 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 2: twelve years old. And when I blew up the world 426 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 2: and had to face myself, this was one of the 427 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 2: big issues. And you know what killed my addiction beginning 428 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 2: to know exactly what you just said, and in that 429 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 2: list is I am pure of heart, and I am 430 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 2: self controlled. Self discipline won't override an addiction. But when 431 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 2: you begin to understand the truth of who you are, 432 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 2: the ways of who you are begin to match it. 433 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 2: And a lot of people they look at their behavior 434 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 2: and define the truth of who you are from their behavior. 435 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 2: And when you know, look and the guys on death Row, 436 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 2: I ask them, what is the deepest truth of who 437 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 2: you are? Is the deepest truth that you want to 438 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 2: kill somebody? And only somebody who is so damaged psychologically 439 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 2: would ever say that they want to kill somebody. But 440 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 2: I haven't met a person who has any sense of 441 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 2: health who wants to kill somebody. They want to be 442 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 2: truth tellers, they want to be kind, they want to 443 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 2: be good, and I don't. And it has nothing to 444 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 2: do with a relationship with Jesus that is overriding a 445 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 2: piece of garbage. It has everything to do with the 446 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 2: revelation of their union with God, who is saying, Look, 447 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 2: you're my child, You're made in my image. You are 448 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 2: good by nature. You just don't know it. And the 449 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 2: good news is to say, you're good by nature, you're 450 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 2: compassionate by nature, and you know the kids that you've 451 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 2: worked with and helped. 452 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: And. 453 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 2: They don't know who they are because nobody told them so. 454 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 2: They think that their environment, or their addictions, or their 455 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 2: damage or the justice system has told them the truth 456 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 2: of who they are, and it's not the truth of 457 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 2: who they are. And wholeness is when the ways of 458 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 2: your beings start to match the truth of your being. 459 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 2: The word sin itself is ham martilla and it means ha. 460 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 2: A is a dis it's an un it's a not this. 461 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 2: And Maros is the root form of martylla and its 462 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 2: origin or form it's not behavior, it's missing the mark 463 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 2: of who you are. And if you don't know who 464 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 2: you are, guess what your behavior is. You can always 465 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 2: tell by looking at someone's behavior what they believe to 466 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,959 Speaker 2: be the truth of who you are. As you believe 467 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 2: in your heart, so becomes the ways of your being. 468 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: So when we talk about the difference of religion and faith, 469 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: you were spewing faith yes not and love theological doctrine. 470 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: One thing I'm going to say, one of the men 471 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: who helped me in my walk with understanding grace and 472 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: faith and religion was Tim Russell. Tim was an associate 473 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: pastor at my church here in Memphis. He came to 474 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: Memphis actually to head up the Memphis Center for Urban 475 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: Theological Seminary, where their goal was to take pastors from 476 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: urban areas who had thriving churches and who were godly 477 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: men but didn't have a lot of proper theological training, 478 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: to give them that training, and then replant them back 479 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: in their urban churches to bring more theology to some 480 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: of the urban churches. In large part, I think it's 481 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,959 Speaker 1: done a good job. But Kim and I were talking 482 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: about organized religion one day and he said, don't ever 483 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: be confused about Sunday morning. Don't let the setup of 484 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: the sanctuary confuse you. And I was like, what do 485 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: you mean? And he said, well, you're used to going 486 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: to the theater or concert or football game where all 487 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,959 Speaker 1: the people sit in something that looks like the pews, 488 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: and then there's a stage where there's a choir and 489 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: a pastor. And when you leave Sunday and you say, 490 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: you know, the choir was pretty good, or I didn't 491 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: really like the pitch of this song, or you decide 492 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: that the sermon was something to kind of take a 493 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: part and decide whether or not the preacher is on 494 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: for you or not that day. Then you think you're 495 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: the audience. And he said, you're so mistaken. You all 496 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: the choir, the pastor, the associate pastors, and the congregants. 497 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: You are all the actors the audiences. Won that's really good. 498 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: You were there to perform worship for the Trinity. Yeah, 499 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: you are not there to be entertained. There's only one 500 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: to be entertained. And he said, and if you will 501 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: get your arms around them little piece of what Sunday 502 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: is supposed to be as a microcosm, you can always 503 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: avoid the trappings of where organized religions steps on the 504 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: toes of grace and faith. 505 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 2: I would add one thing, Act seventeen. This is not 506 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 2: a God who can be served by human hands, as 507 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 2: if he needed anything. 508 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: That's so true. We'll be right back. Okay, here we are. 509 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: If anybody's listened to this, there's no doubt that Paul 510 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: Young is a thinker. This book Shack is amazing, and 511 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: he has reached amazing heights. Is an author even though 512 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: he wants to probably run and hide when I say 513 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: that there are three people that I've identified that I 514 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: think support your greatness, Three that I would like to 515 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 1: give you an opportunity to talk about each three kind 516 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: of briefly and then add too, because this is not 517 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: my list as your list, but I'm going to name 518 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,879 Speaker 1: three that I know are there, and if you want 519 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: to add ad and just briefly tell us you know 520 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: how without them you would not be sitting with me today. 521 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: Kim absolutely, Scott Mitchell, Yes, Christ. 522 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 2: No question about it, no question about it. Kim. That 523 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 2: was the grace of God, no question about it. And 524 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 2: we are the best we've ever been. And I look 525 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 2: back at those eleven years and I would never want 526 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 2: to do it again. It was what did they say? 527 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 2: Religious people believe in hell, but spiritual people have been there. 528 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: I love it. Never heard that, but I love it. 529 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:13,359 Speaker 1: You put him through hell? 530 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 2: I did, and it was hell going through that whole 531 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 2: process of being. 532 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 1: But she forgave you, and she loves you, and she's 533 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: your wife, and she was the one that inspired you 534 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: to write the book. 535 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 2: I know, but there's no I know, and there's no 536 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 2: justification for adultery. The ends don't justify the means. And 537 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 2: so you know, Kim, we all say she's wise, and 538 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 2: she says she has common sense, right, and maybe synonymous, 539 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 2: Well we think it's anonymous, But for her, this is 540 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,760 Speaker 2: just common sense. The fact that she, in a sense 541 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 2: violated the agreement of the sisters in the family, who 542 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,399 Speaker 2: always said that there was one thing they would never 543 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 2: allowed with, put up with, or stay at, and that 544 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 2: was adultery. The reason that she, in her fury and 545 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 2: anger and all of that stuff, which she would tell 546 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 2: you she didn't do right, and I'd tell you I 547 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 2: don't care. She would say, the reason that she let 548 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 2: me stay was because she thought she was sure I 549 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,360 Speaker 2: had hit the bottom, and I did. I hit the bottom. 550 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 2: When you hit the bottom, you don't point a finger 551 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 2: at anybody else. 552 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say from what I've heard 553 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 1: that Kim probably saved your life. 554 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 2: On earth, there is no question about it. 555 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: But what about your eternal life. Certainly had a hand 556 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: in it. 557 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly had a hand in it. 558 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: And I mean, wasn't it her that said you got 559 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 1: to write something down for your kids? 560 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 2: I know, I know it was what is Yeah, even 561 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 2: though she said she was thinking to six. 562 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: Pages, Well, as anybody can tell when talking to you, 563 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,839 Speaker 1: forty six pages can go on and off. Yeah, yeah, 564 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 1: there's so. 565 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 2: Much which was so funny, four to six pages? So 566 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 2: oh so she. 567 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: Is so absolutely so if you summed her up, if 568 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 1: you had to do one word, what describes what is 569 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 1: Kim's tenant or fundamental? That describes how Kim supported the 570 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: greatness that's become you. 571 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 2: I'll hyphenate it. 572 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: You can do that. 573 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 2: Fiery affection. 574 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 1: Scott Mitchell, Mmmm, Scott your therapist. Yeah. Those make sure 575 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 1: everybody knows where we are here. Yeah. 576 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 2: And then my friend I pulled him out of the 577 00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 2: Yellow Pages and my and Keeler ran the clinic and 578 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 2: I met with him first and he says, I think 579 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,240 Speaker 2: I got the guy for you, but you can interview 580 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 2: him and decide for yourself. And I ended up with 581 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 2: Scott and after the nine months we would connect and 582 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 2: he just became a friend. And he comes from a 583 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 2: very similar, almost identical history, apart from the mission stuff 584 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 2: that I did from Canada and all this, and he 585 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 2: had started working on the whole side of the therapeutic 586 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:38,280 Speaker 2: side of sexual abuse histories because of his own and 587 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 2: then he had started helping churches with abuse situations in 588 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,800 Speaker 2: their congregations. And at the end of those nine months, 589 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,799 Speaker 2: he said, Paul, I want to tell you about a 590 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 2: situation and see if it sounds familiar. And he begins 591 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 2: to describe an elder who is abusing the little boys. 592 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 2: And I realized he was talking about one of my uncles. 593 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 1: Oh, I was going to say himself. No, No, he 594 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 1: was talking about someone in your family. Yeah. Did he 595 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 1: know that? 596 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 2: He didn't know it until after he had met. 597 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:13,959 Speaker 1: We didn't. 598 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 2: God, we had started talking. We started with a genogram, 599 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 2: which is where you talk about your family tree on 600 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 2: both sides and what kind of stuff was happening. And 601 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 2: that's when he knew it, and that was right at 602 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 2: the beginning of the nine months. And and so I 603 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 2: pull a guy out of the yellow pages who's already 604 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 2: entwined with my history, right, Like, how incredible is that? No, 605 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 2: there aren't. Here's here's a little part of Scott in 606 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 2: my relationship. Scott had a son who was a meth 607 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 2: amfetamine addict, and meth is a disaster drug. And so 608 00:39:55,120 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 2: Scott had been working working with him, and and he 609 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 2: had said out a Wednesday night Bible study with the guys, 610 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 2: he had said, you know, I don't know what to do, 611 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:11,399 Speaker 2: but I would die for my son. He gets home 612 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 2: that evening and his son is out talking to a 613 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,359 Speaker 2: woman who had been a conduit for the meth and 614 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,279 Speaker 2: she had a restraining order against her for like a 615 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 2: thousand yards. And he comes up to the car and says, 616 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 2: you know, you need to leave right now or else 617 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:35,399 Speaker 2: I have to report you, and says to his son, 618 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 2: you're a grown man, and you in this moment need 619 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 2: to make your own choice, and the son indicates I'm 620 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,879 Speaker 2: with her. And so Scott turns around and walks into 621 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 2: the house and shuts and locks the door behind him, 622 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,319 Speaker 2: not realizing his son is right behind him because he 623 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:01,360 Speaker 2: wants his flip flops. He was barefoot, and in their house, 624 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:05,359 Speaker 2: you go down the first hallway, then the living room 625 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 2: drops to the left, and the staircase goes up, and 626 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,840 Speaker 2: then there's a kitchen and stuff to the right. And 627 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 2: he didn't know that his son had bought an illegal 628 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,799 Speaker 2: pistol three days before, and he had tried to sell 629 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 2: it back and nobody would take it, and he had 630 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,760 Speaker 2: it in his waistband. And when he found the door locked, 631 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 2: he had a moment of anger and he used the 632 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 2: butt of the gun to smash the window, and it 633 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 2: went off, and he didn't know it, and he shot 634 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 2: his father right through the heart. And Scott falls into 635 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 2: the into the living room, and his son just goes in, 636 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 2: goes upstairs, gets his flip flops, and comes back out 637 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 2: and leaves with the woman while his dad is dying 638 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 2: in the living room. And I hear that Scott has 639 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 2: been shot and killed by his own son. And I 640 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 2: was so wrecked that I couldn't even bring myself to 641 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 2: go to the funeral. 642 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:04,799 Speaker 1: I couldn't do it. 643 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:12,399 Speaker 2: While his son gets arrested ten year sentence for manslaughter, 644 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:17,399 Speaker 2: is sentenced to a prison, his grandmother and others would 645 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,920 Speaker 2: visit him. His grandmother calls me and he says, She says, 646 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 2: I just went to visit. I walk in the door. 647 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 2: The guard on the right is reading a copy of 648 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,880 Speaker 2: the Shack. A guard's coming down the row with a 649 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:31,919 Speaker 2: copy of the Shack under his arm. In the first cell, 650 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:37,000 Speaker 2: the guy in there is reading the Shack. Ten years 651 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:38,800 Speaker 2: son comes out clean. 652 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 1: He died for his son. 653 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 2: He participated in the way we are loved by Jesus, 654 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 2: who we are all included in. That is, nothing that 655 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 2: came into existence came into existence apart from him. We 656 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:04,320 Speaker 2: have always been in him. And you can't have being 657 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 2: the offspring of God without God being there. And so 658 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,279 Speaker 2: we were all included in the death of Jesus. When 659 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:18,280 Speaker 2: he died, we all died. When he rose, we all rose. 660 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 2: This is scripture. When he ascended, we all ascended. That 661 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,440 Speaker 2: means that that work is done. It was a It 662 00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:30,600 Speaker 2: was a covenantal work, and a covenant has is all 663 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 2: about the other and is never about the self. A 664 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 2: contract is only about the self. But a covenant is 665 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:41,920 Speaker 2: done unilaterally. It is is what marriage is supposed to be. 666 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,759 Speaker 2: That I covenant to her. And regardless we even say 667 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,880 Speaker 2: it in our vows. But you know, then we go 668 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,840 Speaker 2: back to contractual language. You know, if you don't do 669 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,320 Speaker 2: what you're supposed to do, then we'll get a divorce, 670 00:43:54,440 --> 00:44:01,080 Speaker 2: you know, because it's a contract. And in that covenant 671 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:06,200 Speaker 2: it was unilateral, it was forever, and God makes the 672 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:11,600 Speaker 2: contract with us. And Jesus is the God. Didn't kill Jesus. 673 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 2: We killed Jesus, but death needed to be destroyed, and 674 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,399 Speaker 2: so death takes him to the place that he can 675 00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,880 Speaker 2: destroy death. And so we were included in that. So 676 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:28,080 Speaker 2: our salvation is included in that covenant. And now it 677 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:33,360 Speaker 2: has created a space for us to use our personal agency. 678 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,359 Speaker 2: I have a problem a little bit with free will, 679 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,279 Speaker 2: you know, because how free is free will? 680 00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:42,000 Speaker 1: But we have personal agents. People want to ask why God, quote, 681 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:46,880 Speaker 1: let somebody get hurt or lets children happen. But you 682 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,760 Speaker 1: cannot have free will without also having people. 683 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're you. 684 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,000 Speaker 1: Can't have free will and everything be perfect. 685 00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,120 Speaker 2: If you're no, if your no doesn't matter, you're yes 686 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,719 Speaker 2: doesn't matter either, exactly right. Right, there's why there's a 687 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 2: tree of being right in the garden. Right, And there's 688 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 2: a tree of life, which is about love and relationship 689 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,720 Speaker 2: and we almost always will eat of the tree of life, 690 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,319 Speaker 2: and we think that person needs to know that we're 691 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,919 Speaker 2: right more than they need to know that we love them. 692 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:20,480 Speaker 2: That's right, Okay, So now we get to work out 693 00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:25,439 Speaker 2: our salvation and that's where we're at. We're working it out, 694 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 2: and every choice we make to love changes the cosmos, 695 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:35,319 Speaker 2: changes us. Every choice we make to forgive changes us, 696 00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,040 Speaker 2: and that's where we're at. You don't have to do 697 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,839 Speaker 2: what everybody's doing. This is about your life and your 698 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:47,759 Speaker 2: relationship with God. And it's slow, it's incremental. We make 699 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,680 Speaker 2: lots of mistakes, but the Holy Spirit is there to 700 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,360 Speaker 2: help us learn how to live in freedom, and freedom 701 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,240 Speaker 2: begins to feel irresponsible, as it should. 702 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:05,160 Speaker 1: It's safe to say that pre Scott Mitchell, pre the 703 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:09,440 Speaker 1: work you did with Kim, pre the eleven years of reconciliation, 704 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 1: this ethos was inside you but was collapsed and contained 705 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 1: by dysfunction and abuse and sadness and shame. 706 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,759 Speaker 2: There's never been separation from God, but there's been alienation. 707 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:32,359 Speaker 1: I get it. So Scott helped you on the road 708 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,360 Speaker 1: to unpack all of this so that it could ultimately 709 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:41,360 Speaker 1: reveal itself and the shock and ultimately allow you this 710 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:45,279 Speaker 1: amazing blessing and opportunity to share these thoughts with a 711 00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,640 Speaker 1: needy world. If you had one word to talk about 712 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:55,280 Speaker 1: how Scott supported your greatness. 713 00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 2: Compassionate dash presence, compassionate presence. 714 00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:03,560 Speaker 1: You're wearing out the hyphens. 715 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,680 Speaker 2: Paw, Hey, I'm stuck with trying to get one word. 716 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:27,040 Speaker 1: We will be right back the last unless you have 717 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:31,399 Speaker 1: one to offer. How's christ sports. 718 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:44,680 Speaker 2: Greatness, unconditional dash love, you know? And I would say 719 00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:46,880 Speaker 2: the same about God, the Father and the Holy Spirit 720 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:53,280 Speaker 2: because they don't have different natures, you know. But Jesus 721 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:59,839 Speaker 2: was at the forefront, and the Father is never oh 722 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:06,560 Speaker 2: offended by the Son being at the forefront, and the 723 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,440 Speaker 2: son is never offended by the Father or the Spirit. 724 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,760 Speaker 1: I think the son is the easiest because he was human. 725 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:13,960 Speaker 2: He is human. 726 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:15,560 Speaker 1: It is human. 727 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,080 Speaker 2: It didn't drop it like a robe, you know, it 728 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:19,080 Speaker 2: wasn't a persona. 729 00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:24,480 Speaker 1: You're right, You're absolutely right. He is human, yep. And 730 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:26,719 Speaker 1: but I think it's easiest. 731 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,720 Speaker 2: For us, for us, well, it's because it's. 732 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:32,280 Speaker 1: Also a spirit. A tough one, yeah, yeah, I mean 733 00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,320 Speaker 1: when in your mind's eye, when you hear Holy Spirit, 734 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,919 Speaker 1: what is it a mist or a fog? Of some sort. 735 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:45,520 Speaker 2: But we're an Asian woman is yes, God, we. 736 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,880 Speaker 1: Think of a spirit and this omnipotent ara, the Holy 737 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:54,640 Speaker 1: Spirit is the one. That's an interesting thing to trit 738 00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:58,600 Speaker 1: to relate to. Why I think Jesus is easy? Yeah, 739 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:00,880 Speaker 1: way easier Gus and he felt like that. 740 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,000 Speaker 2: That's why in the shack, you know, Papa is Papa 741 00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,320 Speaker 2: is a big African American woman. You know, yeah, whious, 742 00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,280 Speaker 2: it's it's a it's a metaphor. 743 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,760 Speaker 1: Or an older Native America. 744 00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:17,879 Speaker 2: Yes, it's a metaphor. And the Holy Spirit I talk 745 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:18,880 Speaker 2: about precious, you know. 746 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:19,359 Speaker 1: I was. 747 00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:21,279 Speaker 2: I was writing the max train down to one of 748 00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,000 Speaker 2: my three jobs, and it was on a day and 749 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,160 Speaker 2: I was going like, so, Papa God, is it okay 750 00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:29,640 Speaker 2: to give a name to the Holy Spirit? Because I 751 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:33,319 Speaker 2: had Jesus and I had the book I Am And 752 00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,000 Speaker 2: You're like, is it okay to give the name a name? 753 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:37,120 Speaker 1: Yeah? 754 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,200 Speaker 2: Because I used to be a holy ghost, which was 755 00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,200 Speaker 2: not good at all. And but you know, the Holy Spirit, 756 00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,080 Speaker 2: all right, that's good. But I had Jesus has an 757 00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:49,080 Speaker 2: easy name to come up with. I had Elusia, which 758 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,319 Speaker 2: is part Greek, part Hebrew, the very ground of being 759 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,600 Speaker 2: for the for God the Father, and but she goes 760 00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,160 Speaker 2: by Papa anyway. And uh, which, by the way, is 761 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:02,520 Speaker 2: a metaphor, you know, thinking about God is three persons 762 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,000 Speaker 2: and three men in love with each other. That's a metaphor. 763 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:07,319 Speaker 2: Jesus is I am the Bread of life? 764 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,600 Speaker 1: Why did Why was the Holy Spirit an attractive Asian woman? 765 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:11,239 Speaker 2: You know? 766 00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:17,840 Speaker 1: So I was for beautifully it is, But. 767 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,800 Speaker 2: And I'll tell you that comes from so I wanted 768 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:24,360 Speaker 2: the guy in trouble to be me, a white guy, right, 769 00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,600 Speaker 2: because we've done so much damage to the world and 770 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:33,120 Speaker 2: and and we're very damaged, and so I didn't want 771 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,920 Speaker 2: the solution to be a white solution, right. So it 772 00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,160 Speaker 2: was important for me to pull And part of it 773 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,480 Speaker 2: is my missionary background. Part of it's just be you know, 774 00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,759 Speaker 2: being in in the world and and loving the cultures 775 00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:50,280 Speaker 2: of the world, and so all of that went into 776 00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:55,799 Speaker 2: this and and Papa God. When when Papa God shows 777 00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:58,279 Speaker 2: up in a male form, I didn't want it to 778 00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:02,239 Speaker 2: be white and in an indigenous tribal person fit perfectly 779 00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:04,839 Speaker 2: for me. So I'm on the train on my way 780 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:08,720 Speaker 2: down and I was working for one of my jobs 781 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,600 Speaker 2: for a web conferencing company, and they would give me 782 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:16,600 Speaker 2: the you know, those that are out in the world 783 00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:20,080 Speaker 2: right the ethnic ones, because I just have an affinity 784 00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,920 Speaker 2: for that and an ease about that. So I The 785 00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:27,759 Speaker 2: person calling in was Getika Prabu from India and she 786 00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,480 Speaker 2: was looking for a web conferencing solution for her company. 787 00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:32,280 Speaker 2: I was looking for a name for the Holy Spirit. 788 00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:38,200 Speaker 2: And so she says, oh, it's great. So it took 789 00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:41,080 Speaker 2: me two minutes to figure out that their company needed 790 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:45,919 Speaker 2: a solution of a competitor of ours. So I gave 791 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,080 Speaker 2: her all the contact information and stuff, and then I said, 792 00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:53,160 Speaker 2: before you hang up, Geetka, I have a question. Can 793 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:57,520 Speaker 2: you give me a bunch of words in your dialect 794 00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:01,200 Speaker 2: for the wind? And so she gives me a list 795 00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:03,400 Speaker 2: of about a dozen words, and I'm going down the 796 00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:09,000 Speaker 2: list and I like this one, and I told her, okay, 797 00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,400 Speaker 2: I like this one. How do you say it? And 798 00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:15,080 Speaker 2: she said, well, it's it's kind of a special word 799 00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,960 Speaker 2: because you can either accent the first or the second syllable, 800 00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:21,880 Speaker 2: and it has a rolled r in it, which white 801 00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,000 Speaker 2: folk are really hard of. They have a hard time 802 00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,600 Speaker 2: with rolled ars. And so she said, you can either 803 00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:33,799 Speaker 2: say saraju or Sarayu, and I said, that's beautiful. Do 804 00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,160 Speaker 2: you ever name your children after this? And she says no, 805 00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:40,040 Speaker 2: but we have a river named after this. So I've 806 00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:43,400 Speaker 2: got wind, which is a common expression in scripture for 807 00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,719 Speaker 2: the Holy Spirit, and I've got river, and I'm going 808 00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,279 Speaker 2: like this is great. And so I said, all right, 809 00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:53,279 Speaker 2: here's the big question. What kind of wind is this? 810 00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:56,560 Speaker 2: Because I didn't want a tornado and I didn't I 811 00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,160 Speaker 2: didn't want to fart and I didn't want you know, 812 00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:04,120 Speaker 2: because they got words for that. And this is exactly 813 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:09,960 Speaker 2: what she said. She said, Sarahyu is the common wind 814 00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:11,800 Speaker 2: that catches you by surprise. 815 00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:13,319 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 816 00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:17,439 Speaker 2: And I started crying and she said, you know, it's 817 00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:20,120 Speaker 2: like when you're so hot you think you're gonna die, 818 00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:24,160 Speaker 2: and suddenly, out of nowhere comes this wind and cools 819 00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,080 Speaker 2: you down. That's sorry. 820 00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:28,799 Speaker 1: And that became a name. 821 00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:34,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, so Indian Asian, I know, so the old the 822 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:39,120 Speaker 2: whole Asian thing worked. And Sumi, who played the role 823 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:41,840 Speaker 2: in the movie, everybody who played their roles in the 824 00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:48,640 Speaker 2: movie were absolutely fantastic. Kind Aviv who played Jesus, you know, 825 00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:50,759 Speaker 2: the first night I met him, he's down by the 826 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,040 Speaker 2: water because his wife is in labor, right, so they're 827 00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:57,200 Speaker 2: texting back and forth and and he gets on the 828 00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:02,520 Speaker 2: flight that evening and got there to tell Aviv we 829 00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:06,960 Speaker 2: had a Jewish Jesus, Like who's ever had a Jewish Jesus? 830 00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:09,319 Speaker 2: And it was beautiful. Let me tell you one little 831 00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:14,799 Speaker 2: secret about it. Add people Jesus was Jewish. Just oh yeah, 832 00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:15,200 Speaker 2: there is. 833 00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,840 Speaker 1: That, just just for those listenings, just a small reminder. 834 00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:22,440 Speaker 2: So let me add a few people to the list, 835 00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:24,680 Speaker 2: and then I'll tell you something in the movie that 836 00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:30,320 Speaker 2: you don't know. Okay, there have been women all along 837 00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:35,440 Speaker 2: the pathway of my life who have either pushed me 838 00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:41,880 Speaker 2: back from the edge, who've handed me something that was helpful. 839 00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:49,239 Speaker 2: One was my Greek teacher, Eunice, who was from she'd 840 00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:53,040 Speaker 2: been a missionary in South South America, so my Greek 841 00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:58,680 Speaker 2: has a Spanish accent. But the way that she related 842 00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:02,480 Speaker 2: to me the President's why in Bible school. And she 843 00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:05,560 Speaker 2: did this for a lot of people. We shared these 844 00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:09,399 Speaker 2: things at her funeral. But she would write these beautiful 845 00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:15,200 Speaker 2: notes or she'd slip me a book, and she did 846 00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,680 Speaker 2: this a lot. And there there was a woman who 847 00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:23,760 Speaker 2: I actually in part took the persona from Papa from 848 00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:26,799 Speaker 2: and she and I became friends. I only worked for 849 00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:32,920 Speaker 2: a box church once in my life, and she she 850 00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:35,960 Speaker 2: was the worship leader and I was working with the 851 00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,040 Speaker 2: college kids because I was twenty two years old. And 852 00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:54,360 Speaker 2: her name, yeah her pardon the brain disorder I have. Okay. 853 00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:59,200 Speaker 2: So she comes from a background where she was abused 854 00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:06,160 Speaker 2: while playing Christian music and she she taught you Greek. No, No, 855 00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:07,520 Speaker 2: that was Eunice Smith. 856 00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,919 Speaker 1: Ought you great. Yes. Who's the other one? 857 00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:13,480 Speaker 2: The second one was the vice the president's wife and 858 00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:14,480 Speaker 2: Bible school. 859 00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:16,600 Speaker 1: The president of the Bible School's wife. 860 00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,120 Speaker 2: Correct, she's the one that would slip me things. I 861 00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,760 Speaker 2: know the name, but I'm going to leave it out 862 00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:25,880 Speaker 2: for the moment. And so she and I became friends. 863 00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:29,160 Speaker 2: And she comes into my office one time and she says, Paul, 864 00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:32,800 Speaker 2: how come you and I from the first moment we met, 865 00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:35,759 Speaker 2: I have been friends. And I said, well, that's easy. 866 00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:37,719 Speaker 2: We're the only two black people in this white church. 867 00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:40,200 Speaker 1: It is. 868 00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:44,799 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, and she was large because it was a protection. 869 00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:49,520 Speaker 2: It was a survival mechanism against the kind of abuse 870 00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:54,000 Speaker 2: that she has had experienced. And uh, and she and 871 00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,560 Speaker 2: she lived way past what she was supposed to do. 872 00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:03,359 Speaker 2: And we were friends, Kim Deep friends. And so there 873 00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:05,960 Speaker 2: were people like that. There was a there have been 874 00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:10,160 Speaker 2: a couple of theologians. One was a theologian preacher who 875 00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:15,880 Speaker 2: now lives in Bandera, Texas, named Malcolm Smith. And Malcolm 876 00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:20,080 Speaker 2: I don't know who gave me his tapes. Remember those 877 00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:24,080 Speaker 2: cassette tapes that that you'd get and listen to. But 878 00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:28,360 Speaker 2: I got tapes of Malcolm Smith's teachings and he opened 879 00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:29,200 Speaker 2: up a whole new. 880 00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:29,640 Speaker 1: World for me. 881 00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,840 Speaker 2: And I used to handwrite his tapes, you know, three 882 00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:38,320 Speaker 2: lines to a single line in a in a pad. 883 00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:43,320 Speaker 2: And and I remember when I heard, like the Revelation 884 00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:47,600 Speaker 2: series on the on the the Revelation of Jesus Christ, 885 00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:50,600 Speaker 2: the last book in our Bibles, but not the last 886 00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:53,760 Speaker 2: one written. The Gospel of John was written after Revelation, 887 00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:58,760 Speaker 2: and and and I listened to that and bawled my 888 00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:02,160 Speaker 2: way through the whole thing because it was such a 889 00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:06,320 Speaker 2: different It wasn't oh good this is about you know, 890 00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:09,000 Speaker 2: it was a lot. It was like, well, we have 891 00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:12,080 Speaker 2: the Old Testament, you know, where God is a genocidal maniac, 892 00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:15,400 Speaker 2: and you get this commercial break with Jesus and then 893 00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:18,440 Speaker 2: with Revelation you're back to killing and destroying, you know, 894 00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:22,040 Speaker 2: and it's like, how can this, how can this even be? 895 00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:29,840 Speaker 1: I have studied we studied Revelations last summer the Church, 896 00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:39,560 Speaker 1: and you know, going into it, I was like, ooh, Revelations, 897 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:43,320 Speaker 1: the odds and the seventh and the seven that I'm 898 00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,480 Speaker 1: gonna sit in the corner and shake. What I found 899 00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:51,360 Speaker 1: out is it's raw with a gope. 900 00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:56,320 Speaker 2: Totally, and it's it kind of collects all of scripture 901 00:58:56,840 --> 00:58:59,680 Speaker 2: and finds a way to do a gopa inside that. 902 00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:03,000 Speaker 1: It's for us stunning. So Malcolm Smith did that. 903 00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:10,080 Speaker 2: Malcolm Smith incredibly helpful. And you know, it's I look 904 00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:14,160 Speaker 2: back and I see sprinkled through my life people that 905 00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:17,160 Speaker 2: were absolutely in the right place at the right time 906 00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:21,920 Speaker 2: for me. And and the guys that you did the 907 00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:25,600 Speaker 2: football with. If they don't see it already, they would 908 00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:28,439 Speaker 2: see that one day. They'd go back and look, they'd 909 00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:32,400 Speaker 2: answer this question and they'd tell us about you, you know, 910 00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:37,000 Speaker 2: and and so again it's this beautiful tapestry. The thing 911 00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:40,400 Speaker 2: about the tapestry that God is weaving. We don't often 912 00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:43,800 Speaker 2: get a glimpse of the front. You know, sometimes he 913 00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:47,440 Speaker 2: flashes it, you know, the face of Jesus, but we 914 00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:50,720 Speaker 2: get to see the knots and the strings and they're 915 00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:51,520 Speaker 2: just a mess. 916 00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:53,040 Speaker 1: That's an interesting metaphor. 917 00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:55,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's true. You know, here we are and 918 00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:58,480 Speaker 2: we get to see the harm that's been done to 919 00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:01,440 Speaker 2: the people that we now see as those who are 920 01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:03,560 Speaker 2: in dwelt by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit but 921 01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:08,400 Speaker 2: don't know it, you know, and and so but once 922 01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:11,120 Speaker 2: in a while, because if you look at the Old Testament, 923 01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:14,560 Speaker 2: anybody that got too much of a flash, they decided 924 01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:19,560 Speaker 2: that they needed to make it happen, and huge messes 925 01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:23,280 Speaker 2: as a result. Let me tell you about what's in 926 01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:23,840 Speaker 2: the movie that I. 927 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,480 Speaker 1: Was just saying. Tell me the thing about the movie 928 01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:29,880 Speaker 1: I don't know, which is probably a lot, but. 929 01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:32,360 Speaker 2: There's a there's a number of things, but the one 930 01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:35,360 Speaker 2: that I'm thinking about is at the end of the movie, 931 01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:40,560 Speaker 2: there's this scene in the garden, and in that scene, 932 01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:44,760 Speaker 2: Max tears are being poured out by the Holy Spirit 933 01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:49,320 Speaker 2: onto that set, that section of ground that earlier they dug. 934 01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:53,200 Speaker 1: Up because which ultimately was his daughter's website. 935 01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:56,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, and where he was stuck, and it was a 936 01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,840 Speaker 2: beautiful flowery area and it was important to dig it up. 937 01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:03,240 Speaker 2: So Matt could move right, and so now his tears 938 01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:06,880 Speaker 2: are flowing into that and up comes the Tree of Life. 939 01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:09,040 Speaker 2: When they were shooting that, they're up in the mountain. 940 01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:11,320 Speaker 2: You have all your you've got your actors, you've got 941 01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:14,560 Speaker 2: your camera people, you got your flower people, you've got 942 01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:17,400 Speaker 2: you know, the lighting and the sound and all of that, 943 01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,400 Speaker 2: a whole lot of people the mountains of what up 944 01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:21,280 Speaker 2: in British Columbia. 945 01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:23,560 Speaker 1: British Columbia, yep, and. 946 01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:26,919 Speaker 2: Was one of the site locations. So here's the Father 947 01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,360 Speaker 2: Son and Holy Spirit with Mackenzie in the middle, and 948 01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:33,280 Speaker 2: they want to take that shot and they're looking down 949 01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:36,400 Speaker 2: to where they will eventually put the Tree of Life 950 01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,680 Speaker 2: coming out right, and that's the shot they want, this 951 01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:45,080 Speaker 2: one shot. And as they roll camera for that shot, 952 01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:48,880 Speaker 2: and everybody thinks it's special effects and it's not. As 953 01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:51,440 Speaker 2: they roll camera for that shot, out of the woods 954 01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:55,960 Speaker 2: comes this huge butterfly and lands on Mackenzie's nose. 955 01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:00,000 Speaker 1: That was not scripted at. 956 01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:04,000 Speaker 2: All, and everybody stayed in character action. 957 01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:07,880 Speaker 1: To that in the movie seems so real now that 958 01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:08,880 Speaker 1: you say. 959 01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:13,720 Speaker 2: That, Yeah, he was completely surprised and everybody the other 960 01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:19,360 Speaker 2: stayed in character, like isn't this a wonderful gift, but 961 01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:22,040 Speaker 2: it's completely They did put a little shot of a 962 01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:24,880 Speaker 2: butterfly right before that scene, well to set it up, 963 01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:26,960 Speaker 2: I know, to set it up. And I'm like, ah, 964 01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:27,720 Speaker 2: you didn't need that. 965 01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:28,680 Speaker 1: Just happened. 966 01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:30,280 Speaker 2: It just happened. 967 01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:33,080 Speaker 1: There are no coincidences. 968 01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:35,480 Speaker 2: No, it was so great. And I can tell you 969 01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:37,920 Speaker 2: a whole lot of stories, other stories about set and 970 01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:38,560 Speaker 2: all that, but. 971 01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:42,080 Speaker 1: Paul, just close years if you don't want to hear it. 972 01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:46,720 Speaker 1: But the shack is great, and the Shack is great. 973 01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,640 Speaker 1: The proof is that when you're one of the forty 974 01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:55,680 Speaker 1: high selling books in human history, it's great. But the 975 01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:59,880 Speaker 1: reason it's great is because it reaches people, and it'll 976 01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:06,440 Speaker 1: so much brokenness to be identified with. I think it does. 977 01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:13,560 Speaker 1: And you talk about shame and secrets, The secret is 978 01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:17,960 Speaker 1: we've all experienced brokenness. Absolutely, We've all experienced pain in 979 01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:22,560 Speaker 1: some form of another. We've all experienced trauma. We are 980 01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:30,320 Speaker 1: a collection of that. We are as adults, I think, 981 01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:33,000 Speaker 1: a collection of all the traumatic things that happened to 982 01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:37,840 Speaker 1: us and simultaneously, all the wonderful things that have happened 983 01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:40,120 Speaker 1: to us and the people that have imprinted our lives 984 01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:44,280 Speaker 1: along the way. And we are not one like any 985 01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:47,760 Speaker 1: of those traumas or any of the collection of positive things, 986 01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:51,000 Speaker 1: but we take bits and pieces from all of those 987 01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:56,400 Speaker 1: positive negative experience that sum us up and oftentimes that 988 01:03:56,520 --> 01:04:01,040 Speaker 1: leads to all kinds of difficulties and the shack in 989 01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:06,960 Speaker 1: a real personal way, I think gives us a safe. 990 01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:11,280 Speaker 2: Place to explore those Yeah, thank you, it's great, thank you. 991 01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:22,480 Speaker 1: And you're an amazing thinker and just a phenomenal person 992 01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:28,640 Speaker 1: and a gift and you're a normal guy who did 993 01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:33,800 Speaker 1: something extraordinary. But in this segment, not only do we 994 01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:37,920 Speaker 1: celebrate the amazing thing normal folks like you can do 995 01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:42,560 Speaker 1: that impact and affect people across the world, we also 996 01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:45,560 Speaker 1: want to celebrate your greatness and to think about your 997 01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:51,680 Speaker 1: Greek teacher and the Bible School president's wife, and Malcolm 998 01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:55,640 Speaker 1: Smith and his take on revelations and all the people 999 01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:59,960 Speaker 1: along your path have imprinted you. And then to celebrate 1000 01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:05,120 Speaker 1: Kim and her fiery affection, and Scott and his compassionate 1001 01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:10,480 Speaker 1: presence and ultimately Christ's unconditional love and agape for you 1002 01:05:10,560 --> 01:05:15,520 Speaker 1: and all of us, and how your story allows us 1003 01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:20,280 Speaker 1: to reflect on what fiery affection and compassionate presence and 1004 01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:23,800 Speaker 1: unconditional love should mean for all of us, and what 1005 01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:26,800 Speaker 1: the story you wrote should mean for all of us. Oh, 1006 01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:28,240 Speaker 1: I don't know what you're going to do next, but 1007 01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:30,840 Speaker 1: what you've done so far is pretty amazing, and I 1008 01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:33,720 Speaker 1: just want to tell you how so very much I 1009 01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:37,080 Speaker 1: appreciate you stopping in Memphis today on your flight home 1010 01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:40,200 Speaker 1: to Portland to share your story and to share Kim 1011 01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:45,920 Speaker 1: and Scott's and Christ's story on you. And it is 1012 01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:50,920 Speaker 1: without reservation that I say to you you have infected 1013 01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:54,400 Speaker 1: my life too, And I hope that those listening to 1014 01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:58,040 Speaker 1: us now, if they haven't read The Shock or seen 1015 01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:02,800 Speaker 1: the movie, will do so, and we'll think deeply about 1016 01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:04,480 Speaker 1: the main things you've shared with me today. 1017 01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:09,400 Speaker 2: Wow, I love you and I'm honored. Every conversation is 1018 01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:13,600 Speaker 2: a two way street, and in every relationship, don't forget 1019 01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:16,600 Speaker 2: you don't know the whole story, and don't forget you 1020 01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:19,920 Speaker 2: don't know how it ends. So be present to the 1021 01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:23,800 Speaker 2: person and the situation that is actually in front of you, 1022 01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:26,120 Speaker 2: because this is where real life exists. 1023 01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:28,600 Speaker 1: And as long as we brieve, our story continues to 1024 01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:29,080 Speaker 1: be written. 1025 01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:30,360 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 1026 01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:38,760 Speaker 1: Amen. Amen, Thank you, Paul, and you're welcome, and thank 1027 01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:42,280 Speaker 1: you for joining us this week. If you hadn't read 1028 01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:45,280 Speaker 1: The Shack or watched the movie, make sure to do 1029 01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:50,720 Speaker 1: one or both on Amazon and Amazon Prime. Guys, I 1030 01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:57,960 Speaker 1: recently rewatched the movie and I just I can't emphasize 1031 01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:03,040 Speaker 1: enough to you. Watch the movie, read the book. The 1032 01:07:03,080 --> 01:07:07,520 Speaker 1: metaphorical stories he uses and how he sets everything up 1033 01:07:07,720 --> 01:07:11,560 Speaker 1: is at the very least thought provoking and for some 1034 01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:14,120 Speaker 1: kind of life changing. I hope you'll check it out. 1035 01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:18,680 Speaker 1: To check out Paul's other incredible books projects, and subscribe 1036 01:07:18,720 --> 01:07:24,720 Speaker 1: to his email list, go to Wmpauljung dot com. And 1037 01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:27,520 Speaker 1: if Paul or another guest has inspired you in general 1038 01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:30,720 Speaker 1: or better yet, to take action by wanting to heal 1039 01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:33,920 Speaker 1: from the trauma in your life, helping someone else through theirs, 1040 01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:38,280 Speaker 1: or something else entirely, please let me know. I'd love 1041 01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:41,600 Speaker 1: to hear about it. You can write me anytime at 1042 01:07:41,640 --> 01:07:45,440 Speaker 1: Bill at normalfolks dot us, and I'm telling you I 1043 01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:48,880 Speaker 1: will respond to you. And if you enjoyed this episode, 1044 01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:51,880 Speaker 1: share it with friends and on social, subscribe to the podcast, 1045 01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:55,880 Speaker 1: rate and review it, become a premium member at normalfolks 1046 01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:58,480 Speaker 1: dot us. All of these things that will help us 1047 01:07:58,560 --> 01:08:03,680 Speaker 1: grow and a jeary of normal folks. Remember, guys, more 1048 01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:07,920 Speaker 1: impact comes from more people. And speaking of premium members, 1049 01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:11,200 Speaker 1: we've got some bonus content for you from this episode. 1050 01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:14,040 Speaker 1: We recorded this with some guests in the room and 1051 01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:16,200 Speaker 1: we had a little Q and A afterwards. In it, 1052 01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:21,120 Speaker 1: Paul talked about someone that was relatively absent from our conversation, 1053 01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:25,000 Speaker 1: his mom. We're releasing that as a bonus episode for 1054 01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:29,400 Speaker 1: our subscribers. I hope you'll listen. Thanks for joining us, folks. 1055 01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:43,639 Speaker 1: I'm Bill Courtey. I'll see you next week.