Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless,
Speaker 1: severely fog bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast.
Speaker 1: You can't predict anything, o, Pat Durkin and Doug Drn.
Speaker 1: I guess not like you should be cousins. Almost No,
Speaker 1: you know, I can see a little bit a lot
Speaker 1: of skin up on top of your head. That's gonna say.
Speaker 1: The ball guys are on one side of the room.
Speaker 1: The guys with hair on the other side. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't like to get close to the ball guys. Robot.
Speaker 1: I think you're safe, Steve, I'm really not. My wife
Speaker 1: doesn't think that I am. Now you're safely. My grandfather,
Speaker 1: my grandpappy, Glenn Coral, who was an avid muskie angler.
Speaker 1: I don't even want to tell you his one of
Speaker 1: the tricks, the muskie tricks he told me about, but
Speaker 1: I will tell you from a bygone era. He was
Speaker 1: telling me when I was a little boy. He liked
Speaker 1: to fish muski. He like to fish crop ease. He
Speaker 1: was telling me A good way to catch muskies is
Speaker 1: It's just kind of terrible trying to think of how
Speaker 1: to bring it up. I think just say it, man, Okay.
Speaker 1: Glenn Coral my Perturn. My maternal grandfather, who was a
Speaker 1: farmer and then went on to be to work for
Speaker 1: a fire department. UM used to fish muskies by basically
Speaker 1: harness rigging chipmunks, as he explained it to me, harness
Speaker 1: rigging chipmunks which he would like deliver out into the
Speaker 1: water by canoe and then and then go back and
Speaker 1: fish it. Yeah, you remember what it said. I'd like
Speaker 1: to ask the animal rights as well. And then too,
Speaker 1: you think about when we were kids. We didn't know
Speaker 1: it's the illegal, but we used to lip poock leopard frogs.
Speaker 1: Oh every kid does that. I don't know if they
Speaker 1: still do. But they were doing that when they mean,
Speaker 1: and we was doing that. And so I ever caught
Speaker 1: a fish that way though? Oh I did, And you're
Speaker 1: I caught I do at night? I thought I catched
Speaker 1: these big large mouth bass. When I caught was big
Speaker 1: bullheads mean trophy bull fourteen fifteen trophy They hanging on
Speaker 1: your wall next year, next hanging in your house. No,
Speaker 1: but but we eat them on they were good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that point being Glen, my paternal maternal grandfather was a balder.
Speaker 1: And you guys, well maybe not his balls does but
Speaker 1: and uh, I suppose you like you catch it right,
Speaker 1: you catch it from your maternal grandpa. My wife thinks
Speaker 1: I'm thinning out now my barber doesn't. You can tell
Speaker 1: your wife for me that. When I was in boot
Speaker 1: camp at age nineteen, my hair was already later than
Speaker 1: years as far as thickness, and they shaved my head
Speaker 1: off and then I came back my hair was like
Speaker 1: yours is. Now that's my ninet team. By twenty nine,
Speaker 1: it was going fast. Yeah. Now, my bro uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I got brothers who like staggered out ahead of me
Speaker 1: a year and a half, eighteen months out and then
Speaker 1: eighteen more months out. So I look at their heads
Speaker 1: a lot. It changed their heads changed. Man, this was
Speaker 1: a little yeah. Yeah, I got those widows speaks. Um.
Speaker 1: You know. One quick question the guy wrote in A
Speaker 1: UFO researcher just wrote in is that a real thing?
Speaker 1: Someone he's claiming to be? One? YEA like to say,
Speaker 1: you're like an ex researcher, Like, how hard is it
Speaker 1: to prove it? He like he didn't have I don't
Speaker 1: know that he has. Like if he walked into his house,
Speaker 1: would he have like the little degrees hanging on the
Speaker 1: wall but I think that when I see that, I'm like,
Speaker 1: I think you could be I think that you could
Speaker 1: be a UM, I'm guessing he's a hobbyist. There's not
Speaker 1: a lot of credentials that go along. Yeah, because I
Speaker 1: think that you if you were someone who was like
Speaker 1: if you were an astronomer, for instance, and you were
Speaker 1: curious about life on other planets, I don't think you'd
Speaker 1: write dudes like me to say, hey man, I'm a
Speaker 1: UFO researcher, and as part of my research, I thought
Speaker 1: i'd ask you, fellas who spent a lot of time
Speaker 1: out in the woods, if you've seen any evidence lately,
Speaker 1: which is what this email was. Pat Um actually wrote
Speaker 1: a part of a chapter of a book one time
Speaker 1: on this guy his trail cameras up here north of
Speaker 1: here in Buffalo Cony, and as trail cameras picked up
Speaker 1: a UFO. UM, can you stop from it? When you
Speaker 1: say that? Do you use it like UFO like lower
Speaker 1: case or UFO like upper case upper case abbreviation? No? No No, No.
Speaker 1: What I mean by that is if you see something
Speaker 1: flying and you can't identify it, that's that's a UFO.
Speaker 1: I think of that as a UFO lower case when
Speaker 1: someone says like I saw uh a ufo and they
Speaker 1: mean by that they mean not that they were not
Speaker 1: able to identify it, but they mean that it was
Speaker 1: a thing carrying aliens around. Definitely think of that as
Speaker 1: you know a fellow that caught an upper case UFO
Speaker 1: like an alien spacecraft on his trail camp. Definitely. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I wrote about it. I can even I'll have to
Speaker 1: send you a copy of it. Just tell basically it was.
Speaker 1: He just create picture of a doll in front of
Speaker 1: a Chiel camera. Then in the back way in the
Speaker 1: back you can see the distance a V shaped object,
Speaker 1: and that V shaped object moved in those in those pictures.
Speaker 1: It a series of pictures and then, coincidentally, about in
Speaker 1: that same time period, by a week before a week after,
Speaker 1: I can't remember the specifics, there were reports by other
Speaker 1: people in the area seeing this Uh it's only a
Speaker 1: wedge shaped object that would pick up an halass out
Speaker 1: of there. And this one guy taught the story about
Speaker 1: these guys came flying down the road scared all their mind.
Speaker 1: They've been driving and had seen this thing. And then
Speaker 1: Tom was checking his trail cameras and Tom checks his
Speaker 1: tail cames on his computer. He watches those pictures and
Speaker 1: he's always seeing stuff and he knows his object back
Speaker 1: there and it was read about dawn and this thing
Speaker 1: actually did move in those pictures where you can see
Speaker 1: it's not something that was a spec showed up in
Speaker 1: the same spot, is actually something in a movement. Pat,
Speaker 1: do you believe that? Um, I'm not a don't don't.
Speaker 1: I'm not asking you if you think that there is
Speaker 1: life on other planets? Okay, okay. My brother was recently
Speaker 1: explained to me that the number of other planets is
Speaker 1: it's a imagine a one with I think something like
Speaker 1: seventeen or twenty zeros after it. Mhm. He's a statistician
Speaker 1: and he says, with that many planets, there is one
Speaker 1: where there is a eight foot tall furry person who
Speaker 1: is a smuggler in a spaceship, like there's that many planets.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I buy that, but I'm not
Speaker 1: asked if you think there's live in our planets? Do
Speaker 1: you think that right now there are a there are
Speaker 1: people from other planets in amongst us flying around in
Speaker 1: ships or do you think that he thinks that or
Speaker 1: do you think that the guy thinks that. Um, I
Speaker 1: think they're pretty well convinced they saw something. But I
Speaker 1: guess the working theory is was it some kind of
Speaker 1: military test, because because um, Camp Ripley isn't that far away.
Speaker 1: Camp McCoy isn't that far away, there's possibility. But I
Speaker 1: guess to your brother's comment, though, I think I would
Speaker 1: argue that one bit the trouble you wind up and
Speaker 1: this is way off topic you from with Jared Diamond.
Speaker 1: Jared Diamond has a thing where he I don't want
Speaker 1: to mutilate his argument too much, but but he gets
Speaker 1: into like the idea that we would have contact with
Speaker 1: another group. Ah and you imagine that. So the Earth
Speaker 1: four billion years old? Okay? Um, And if you pictured
Speaker 1: the Earth's history like stretch your arms out as far
Speaker 1: as you can stretch them out. Okay, that's the Earth's
Speaker 1: history on a on a timeline, you could remove human
Speaker 1: history with one stroke of a nail file, meaning here's
Speaker 1: this planet. And planets are ephemeral, they come and go,
Speaker 1: here's this planet whose timeline is that long? But one stroke.
Speaker 1: This isn't McPhee. John McPhee's the guy that brought up
Speaker 1: this that you could remove human history at the stroke
Speaker 1: of a nail file. But that's like, how on this planet,
Speaker 1: which is an ephemeral sort of thing, that we've had
Speaker 1: that little human history. Now, however, you begin to define
Speaker 1: the beginning of human history like sort of the fashionable
Speaker 1: answer used to be the anatomically and behaviorally modern humans
Speaker 1: have been around for seventy five thousand years, and people like,
Speaker 1: oh no, anatomically and behaviorally modern humans have been around
Speaker 1: for a hundred fifty years. But whatever it is, let's
Speaker 1: just say we have a hundred thousand years of anatomically
Speaker 1: and behaviorly modern humans where you can take one of them,
Speaker 1: a person from a hundred thousand years ago, dress them
Speaker 1: up and in our duds, and they would and bring
Speaker 1: them up in a modern family, and they would somehow
Speaker 1: like pass as a personally wouldn't be inconspicuous. Okay, Um,
Speaker 1: we've got that long hundred thousand years of that, but
Speaker 1: it's it's been And our ability to electronically transmit messages
Speaker 1: has been brief. Okay. Our ability to broadcast a message out,
Speaker 1: so you've been up to it for a hundred years,
Speaker 1: which is generous. Do you'd be able to broadcast a message?
Speaker 1: So imagine now the trouble of having another planet, having
Speaker 1: another planet's life cycle coincide with that. So not that
Speaker 1: there's not other life. There is something that looks like
Speaker 1: a chipmunk like my grandfather's muskie fish and bait. Okay,
Speaker 1: there's another planet that has a chipmunk. But to have
Speaker 1: it be that that scaled out that you one taking
Speaker 1: the assumption that life leads to a form of leads
Speaker 1: to a thing that is curious about life on other planets,
Speaker 1: or leads to a thing capable of having the face
Speaker 1: or belief that there are other things out there, which
Speaker 1: is a new idea here, and have it be that
Speaker 1: it lined up perfectly and led to the same place
Speaker 1: where we in the same place in the same time,
Speaker 1: have the same interest and mechanisms to do so to
Speaker 1: make contact with one another. It becomes very difficult. It
Speaker 1: becomes very difficult to picture it. Mhm. So the dude
Speaker 1: the deer hunter with the trail camera. When I see that,
Speaker 1: my mind doesn't go to, oh, I'm gonna explain this
Speaker 1: as an extraterrestrial presence. My mind goes to the hundreds
Speaker 1: of other things that it unknown, things that it could be. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But to get to the guy's questions. I was out
Speaker 1: running mink traps with guy by the name of Carl,
Speaker 1: and I was in high school and we saw UFO
Speaker 1: out and swamp checking mink traps, and I remember Carl
Speaker 1: looked at me and said, I'm not even gonna tell
Speaker 1: anybody about that. Yeah. I think of it as a
Speaker 1: UFO cat lower case, but it was a flying object.
Speaker 1: I was unable to identify three lights. H Well, it's
Speaker 1: kind of swirling quality to him. Well, you for the
Speaker 1: mysterious lights up in the up west of only the
Speaker 1: ones that come from like drump drivers. It was just
Speaker 1: was just legend up in the up and many people
Speaker 1: have seen it. Nothing unusual to see it where you um.
Speaker 1: I think it's west of a little place called paul Myra.
Speaker 1: I think it is. But anyways, up off forty five
Speaker 1: going west off in the Up of Michigan, and the
Speaker 1: legend is at this light that appears at night is
Speaker 1: the lantern of an old guy in the back of
Speaker 1: a railroad car from Earth, from from Earth. But it's
Speaker 1: a mysterious light from Earth. Yeah, yeah, a ghost basically,
Speaker 1: And it freaks people out and they go up there
Speaker 1: and they hear about this. You know this mysterious ghost
Speaker 1: and this mysterious light and they go look at and yep,
Speaker 1: it's there. And then no one, no one at all
Speaker 1: those time, has ever been able to explain where that
Speaker 1: light comes from. Just odd some kind of physical occurrence obviously,
Speaker 1: but no one can explain it. What do you think
Speaker 1: about all that, Doug, I it's just uh, feeling like
Speaker 1: it's two o'clock in the morning after a grateful Dead show.
Speaker 1: As soon as all right, I think we gave that
Speaker 1: guy the UFO researcher excuse me, the credential UFO researcher, Yanni,
Speaker 1: who who's can you? Can you explain the guy? Can
Speaker 1: you explain that your buddy, you got the wrong piece
Speaker 1: of paper? Oh? Can you explain the story how this
Speaker 1: guy like how we got to know him? Or no?
Speaker 1: Tell the story? Oh yeah, for sure it can't, he
Speaker 1: wrote in He actually he contacted me first before he
Speaker 1: wrote us a story, because he was listening to us
Speaker 1: talking about salt bait and the legalities around that. If
Speaker 1: you got caught hunting over, you know, a chunk of salt,
Speaker 1: then if it was yours or not, you knew it
Speaker 1: was there or not, you know, and how the law
Speaker 1: would deal with it. So oh yeah, you know what,
Speaker 1: hold that pick it back up a minute. But I
Speaker 1: did the We just we're talking about how Alabama made
Speaker 1: that rule that there used to be like no bait,
Speaker 1: and it was like, okay, if you're a hundred yards
Speaker 1: from your bait and you can't see the bait, if
Speaker 1: it's behind, if like if it's out of sighting and
Speaker 1: a hundred yards away, then it's okay. So then dudes
Speaker 1: started putting bait on the other side of hay bales
Speaker 1: a hundred yards away because they couldn't see the bait
Speaker 1: and it was a hundred yards away. Well, just so
Speaker 1: happened that um Alabama just legalized baiting for it came
Speaker 1: out because they wanted to find a more efficient way
Speaker 1: to kill hogs and they got a real hog problem
Speaker 1: in Alabama. So they're like legal. But then they rolled
Speaker 1: in you can bait for deer and hoggs in Alabama,
Speaker 1: full on balls out, much of the chagrin of many
Speaker 1: white tail managers. You can now bait. They're so like
Speaker 1: one hammer dealing with the spread of infectious diseases and
Speaker 1: tear herds, and one thing we damn sure no is
Speaker 1: the best way to get infectious diseases to jump around
Speaker 1: is to invite a bunch of animals to rub noses
Speaker 1: and a feed pile. But they legalized baiting. What's funny
Speaker 1: is you have to buy a baiting license because the
Speaker 1: Fish and Game Department was bummed about all the revenue
Speaker 1: they would be losing from being able to give people
Speaker 1: from giving citations for baiting. They were making revenue off
Speaker 1: fines for baiting, and they're like, we're gonna lose the
Speaker 1: revenue we have from it being illegal. There's a plant
Speaker 1: to it with revenue from happening to buy a baiting stamp.
Speaker 1: I'm not this is not a joke. Go ahead, it's
Speaker 1: just it. But it's just yeah. I think it definitely
Speaker 1: comes from the from the hog thing. And then there's
Speaker 1: certain deer dudes and they're like, well, we got too
Speaker 1: many deer, we need to kill more. And then people
Speaker 1: like you really got too many deer is because everybody
Speaker 1: wants to shoot big, giant, huge bucks. No one wants
Speaker 1: to kill those. They had the highest deer densities, some
Speaker 1: of the highest deer dancers in the country. You're allowed
Speaker 1: to kill like I hunted Alabama the late nineties, and
Speaker 1: you could get a dear day way like then. It's
Speaker 1: more than that. Now we went down and just like
Speaker 1: cold rolled in and hunted Tuskege National Forest and killed
Speaker 1: a bunch of bucks. M go ahead, ye, speaking of
Speaker 1: speaking of baiting, speaking of baiting. So he contact me
Speaker 1: and said, I got a good baiting story. He said
Speaker 1: he and body were hunting ducks in North Carolina about
Speaker 1: fifteen years ago, and uh, all over the general area.
Speaker 1: The hunting was pretty slow. Um, but they had plenty
Speaker 1: of time. There had plenty of time to scout, and
Speaker 1: they scouted hard and they found a spot that was
Speaker 1: holding some ducks. So they made a plan come back
Speaker 1: the next morning. Um. It was near houses, but not
Speaker 1: close enough to be dangerous, um, but definitely close enough
Speaker 1: to where the houses could hear the shots. I think,
Speaker 1: you know, there's plenty of duck hunting spots like that. UM.
Speaker 1: I know that when I'm at my in laws in
Speaker 1: North Carolina over the holidays. Uh, you know, they live
Speaker 1: on the Intercoastal Waterway, and I mean it's NonStop, almost
Speaker 1: all day long. You just hear, you know, as the
Speaker 1: birds are flying up and down the inter Coastal there.
Speaker 1: Um anyways, Um, so they're they're shooting away, having some action,
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden they look over and there's
Speaker 1: a woman standing on a pier with a megaphone and
Speaker 1: she's yelling at them, um that she's already called the
Speaker 1: game warden because they're hunting over bait. Well, she doesn't
Speaker 1: want them hunt. No, she doesn't want him hunting. She's
Speaker 1: calling the game warden though she knows they're hunting over bait.
Speaker 1: They don't know they're hunting over bait. So um, he says,
Speaker 1: they shipped their pants and uh, they're wondering what to do,
Speaker 1: and in no time, the game wardens pulling up. The
Speaker 1: woman gets in a canoe and paddles over and tells
Speaker 1: the game warden that's now with them and there their ducks,
Speaker 1: that she knows they're hunting over bait because she put
Speaker 1: it there on purpose so she could watch the ducks
Speaker 1: but didn't tell anyone, and wanted to keep people from
Speaker 1: hunting in that area, so she figured she bait it
Speaker 1: and then if it's made it, you can't hunt there.
Speaker 1: The game warn't proceeded to write the woman a ticket
Speaker 1: for hunter harassment, and then told the two hunters to
Speaker 1: go ahead and finish out the hunt, but after that
Speaker 1: to stay out of there a few weeks since at
Speaker 1: that point they knew it was bated, and he felt
Speaker 1: that the general rule was that a bated area couldn't
Speaker 1: be hunted for ten days after the bait was put out.
Speaker 1: YEA love it. So that's the thing. I followed up
Speaker 1: with him to ask, uh, you know, because obviously now
Speaker 1: at that point they're like, damn, this might be good.
Speaker 1: So I followed up to see if they limited, but
Speaker 1: he said it just felt too sketchy, so they just left.
Speaker 1: He didn't take the warden up on the office. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of things. There's a lot of things going
Speaker 1: on there that warrn't discussion. One is, um, ducks are migratory.
Speaker 1: I'm talking to the listeners here. Ducks are migratory. So
Speaker 1: a state can't claim, you know, you know, states manage
Speaker 1: their own wildlife with the exception of something that has
Speaker 1: federal protections like through the Endangered Species Act or migratory stuff.
Speaker 1: Because you can't claim ownership of a bird that's that's traveling,
Speaker 1: you know, thousands of miles and just stopping into places.
Speaker 1: So the way they kind of like the way they
Speaker 1: the FEDS and and the FEDS and the states co
Speaker 1: manage migratory birds. And you have flyways in the US
Speaker 1: because you imagine like bird movements are generally these north
Speaker 1: south movements. So you have the Atlantic Flyway, the Pacific Flyway,
Speaker 1: how many other there's four or five flyways Mississippi River
Speaker 1: fly Mississippi Flyaway, sent then there's the there's one that
Speaker 1: goes down the Rocket Central, and then there's four or
Speaker 1: five flyways. Look that up, way, I should know that
Speaker 1: you got a handful of flyways and the waterfall, like
Speaker 1: migratory wilder falls managed sort of on the flyway level.
Speaker 1: And in the States and the FEDS work together and
Speaker 1: they kind of look at there's four flyways, name them
Speaker 1: off Yanni, Pacific Central, Mississippi in Atlantic. There you go.
Speaker 1: So you'll look at like what a state, what a
Speaker 1: state's contribution, so to speak, is to the general well
Speaker 1: being of a species. And if a waterfall species really
Speaker 1: utilizes a state heavily for wintering grounds or utilizes a
Speaker 1: state heavily for breeding grounds, um that states allocation of
Speaker 1: that resource will be greater than say a state where
Speaker 1: the bird just passed through and don't really utilize the
Speaker 1: area at all. And it's it's kind of like a
Speaker 1: good system because it prohibits the state from extracting like
Speaker 1: more than its share of a re source, which would
Speaker 1: then impact other people down the line. The same way,
Speaker 1: if you live on a creek and you feel free
Speaker 1: to pour all kinds of poison into the creek on
Speaker 1: your property, that poison will flow down river and affect
Speaker 1: the guy down the stream. And that's why we have
Speaker 1: rules that prohibit one's actions on their land from having
Speaker 1: a negative impact on the actions of someone else's land.
Speaker 1: Sort of that same kind of logic at play with waterfowl.
Speaker 1: What was I getting at? Oh point I was getting
Speaker 1: at is you can't bait migratory birds federal Like, even
Speaker 1: if state decided, hey man, we want to allow baiting ducks,
Speaker 1: you're not gonna be able to do it because the
Speaker 1: feathers are never going to agree to it. Bait and waterfowl,
Speaker 1: but you can even if you go and plant crops,
Speaker 1: Like even if you go, let let's say your guy
Speaker 1: that likes to hunt ducks, you know, a bunch of land,
Speaker 1: and you're like, I'm gonna grow corn on my lamb
Speaker 1: because I like to hunt ducks. Even if you're doing that,
Speaker 1: you can't, right, you can't raise that corn and harvest
Speaker 1: that corn out of sink with how corn is harvested
Speaker 1: when used for agricultural purposes, Like, you can't grow a
Speaker 1: bunch of corn, never harvest it, wait for the duck
Speaker 1: migration to come in, knock all the corn down and
Speaker 1: flood it and start hunting ducks. You have to if
Speaker 1: you plan it, you have to pick it the way
Speaker 1: it would be picked. You can't just like loophole your
Speaker 1: way around it by doing weird stuff. People do do
Speaker 1: weird stuff, And you can do like enhancements and plant
Speaker 1: native vegetation that ducks like to eat all that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. Habitat improvements are fine, but you can't do
Speaker 1: sort of like egreedgious kind of accidental baiting baiting by
Speaker 1: like I said, the most egregious case would be that
Speaker 1: you would somehow grow corn, pick it and then kind
Speaker 1: of grains and then maybe flooded and then accidentally spill
Speaker 1: all the grain and not pick it up and and
Speaker 1: flooded and then be like, oh, you know, I'm a farmer.
Speaker 1: They watched that kind of stuff and in Wisconsin. Property
Speaker 1: taxes are based on rural land is based on land use.
Speaker 1: And I just have some folks that I'm working with
Speaker 1: who have a uh complaint about their property taxes haven't
Speaker 1: gone up. And they said, well, this is agriculture, and
Speaker 1: what it is is a twenty acre food plot that
Speaker 1: they you know, they went in and knocked it down.
Speaker 1: I saw the crop didn't come up. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: what they're trying to tell the assessor. And the assessors like, no,
Speaker 1: that's that's that's undeveloped property, which is at a much
Speaker 1: higher rate than um. He wasn't He wasn't buying it
Speaker 1: at all, I said, dude. And they were asking me,
Speaker 1: don't you think the size of the night. It sounds
Speaker 1: to me like if you want to be a farmer,
Speaker 1: you need to be a farmer, all right, So so here.
Speaker 1: So so that's one interesting thing pointed conversation out of
Speaker 1: this story by the sky. The other point is the
Speaker 1: fact that and this is I think not widely known
Speaker 1: that it's ill oftentimes in many states, and Pat Durkin
Speaker 1: is gonna speak to this. It's illegal to screw with
Speaker 1: the hunter or a trapper or a fisherman. You can't
Speaker 1: harass him. You can't molest his hunt. Remember Jeremiah Johnson,
Speaker 1: he gets accused by bear claw Chris Cloud of molesting
Speaker 1: his grizzly hunt. It's illegal to molest someone's hunt. As
Speaker 1: that woman found out, that's what she was in trouble
Speaker 1: for harassing a hunter who's engaged in a legal activity. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Is that a federal or a state by state? State
Speaker 1: by state? And every state now has anti harassment law,
Speaker 1: every state, every state has it. Yeah. The the United
Speaker 1: States Sportsman Alliance back in the eighties basically helps states.
Speaker 1: They crafted a model legislation in the states. It's from
Speaker 1: the most easy ones to pass. No one, no one
Speaker 1: likes harassment of legal activities, so it passed in all
Speaker 1: fifty states. I didn't know that. I remember when it passed.
Speaker 1: I remember I was living in Michigan. I think when
Speaker 1: it passed the Michigan. I feel like I was living
Speaker 1: in Michigan. It passed the Michigan, and I was curious
Speaker 1: aboute because the trap because the trappers were getting her asked. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's where that that's where the Sportsmen's Lions came from, right, well,
Speaker 1: harassment so kind of trapping band in Ohio, Is that right?
Speaker 1: We heard the story recently. That might be because that's
Speaker 1: where they're from in Columbus. You know, I remember I
Speaker 1: remember covering those guys in the mid eighties. They're doing
Speaker 1: you know, trips around the country in those days, rounding
Speaker 1: up support for the organization. But you know, but I
Speaker 1: remember in Wisconsin here we had a face to face
Speaker 1: face harassment going on in Blue Mountain State Park, which
Speaker 1: is over not too far from Doug's farm, and the
Speaker 1: D and R had wardens out there and they pretty
Speaker 1: much um didn't interfere a whole lot and didn't arrest
Speaker 1: anybody because they has figured we're not going to make
Speaker 1: martyrs on these people, and all these laws when in effect,
Speaker 1: and basically the warden's told these people, you know you
Speaker 1: can you've been warring now and if you come back
Speaker 1: and you're still harassing them, then we'll have to take action.
Speaker 1: But what's what's I think fascinating about the story that
Speaker 1: you're sharing here is that's really become how that law
Speaker 1: is being enforced. I mean, there's very very few cases
Speaker 1: now where animal rights activists go out and organized fashion
Speaker 1: and disruptant, so it just asn't unusual now, what's happenings
Speaker 1: that legislation. Yeah, that's that's probably part of it. That
Speaker 1: they know that this this is something that they can
Speaker 1: be if they physically interrupt someone's hunt, blurred noise, do anything,
Speaker 1: they're harass, molest, it's illegal, and it's it's pretty well,
Speaker 1: you know, it's been stoop to the various legal challenges
Speaker 1: and so they probably don't challenge anymore. That's probably you
Speaker 1: don't see that kind of um enforcement action being taken
Speaker 1: because it just isn't happening because of the law. But
Speaker 1: what's happening is all these people pulling that kind of
Speaker 1: in a business where they honked honked their horns and
Speaker 1: the neighbors hunting in his backyard. Um, they you know,
Speaker 1: you can google this stuff. It's I did this in
Speaker 1: in preparation. It was fun to do. You started googling
Speaker 1: hunter harassment. What do you see? It's basically neighborhood situations,
Speaker 1: UM situations Like a guy opening day Wisconsin's gun season,
Speaker 1: doesn't like his neighbor hunting the fence lines, who goes
Speaker 1: up there and starts cutting the chain saucers doing his
Speaker 1: firewood project open day and the curse in the hunter
Speaker 1: gets piste off, climbs down and this is you know,
Speaker 1: back probably for our cell phone coverage was so good,
Speaker 1: and calls the ward and the warren comes out un
Speaker 1: tells the neighbor quit cutting the wood. You know, come on,
Speaker 1: that's I can set here for harassment. But how did
Speaker 1: you know the guy doesn't want to cut some wood?
Speaker 1: Is because it's a long running battle, you know, typical
Speaker 1: neighbor ship that goes back and forth between two neighbors
Speaker 1: that don't like each other. And I find boils over
Speaker 1: an opening day and then the warren's involved. You know,
Speaker 1: I know a case where there was a hunter harassment
Speaker 1: from one hunter to the other. Oh yeah, Our good
Speaker 1: friend Kevin Murphy, the world's greatest small game hunter, did
Speaker 1: a trip up to my home state of Michigan and
Speaker 1: was hunting my home national forest, Manastee National Forest, which
Speaker 1: I think now goes by a different name, or it's
Speaker 1: here on Manistee. Anyways, many national forest and they're out
Speaker 1: there with these they're out there with through squirrel dogs,
Speaker 1: which is not a quiet type of dog. I mean,
Speaker 1: these things make a racket. But anyway, some bow hunter
Speaker 1: comes peeling down out of his tree, freaking out on him.
Speaker 1: M it a call up on that guy for hunter. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: he felt that his deer hunting trumped Kevin's squirrel hunt,
Speaker 1: which is yeah to me, it's it's public land and
Speaker 1: you take what you get. Yeah, it's like, sorry, bro,
Speaker 1: or the dogs may have has easily runned your past.
Speaker 1: The guy has are you know, scared of your And
Speaker 1: if you don't like it, I mean the thing to
Speaker 1: do is get organized and trying to change the laws, right,
Speaker 1: changing seasons or whatever it might be. But the thing
Speaker 1: is they enjoy you know, both of those guys. So
Speaker 1: squirrel hunters more so than deer hunts. But you already
Speaker 1: enjoy it very long season. Yeah so too. You know,
Speaker 1: if you whittled it down and we're like, hey, we're
Speaker 1: gonna have a week long archery deer season and it
Speaker 1: will make it real quiet in the woods. I think
Speaker 1: that your average bowl hunter would be like, you know what,
Speaker 1: I'll stick with six or eight weeks that I have
Speaker 1: understanding that there's gonna be some other activities going on
Speaker 1: out here, because a lot of states will come in
Speaker 1: and shut down small game for the firearms season or
Speaker 1: like a day before, right, there's something like that in Wisconsins.
Speaker 1: It's not anymore. No, you can. You can. You can
Speaker 1: remember because we were going to hunt with Brittany and HELLENX.
Speaker 1: We want to hunt squirrels. First I thought, you can't
Speaker 1: go shooting off guns the day before dear season. They
Speaker 1: changed it. They changed it was the day before your season.
Speaker 1: We squirrel hunted with Brittany, so they has changed it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's pretty recent that you couldn't go shooting on fire.
Speaker 1: It was more of, oh, you don't want to disturb
Speaker 1: the woods. Oh, that's not going there. And then the
Speaker 1: next morning my nephew goes out there and shoots a
Speaker 1: big buck right where you guys were sure because you
Speaker 1: know what, it doesn't sets the deer at ease, well,
Speaker 1: the word the deer like he said, Dude, I was
Speaker 1: freaking out. Then I realized they're just hunting squirrel. I'm
Speaker 1: going That's where I'm gonna go. Um. So that woman
Speaker 1: was which woman, the woman in the canoe. She was
Speaker 1: cited for hunter harassment and baiting. We don't know about
Speaker 1: that because she's been cited for bathing, all right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but she wasn't baiting to hunt. So then you get
Speaker 1: into this tricky thing feeding the wildlife in your backyard.
Speaker 1: That's the whole thing in Wisconsin about Oh, this isn't baiting,
Speaker 1: this is I'm feeding wildlife. I'm not right, And it
Speaker 1: sounds state you can't do that in Montana. You can't
Speaker 1: see wildlife at all. That I don't seems like a
Speaker 1: good rule to me, you know it. Got recently wrote
Speaker 1: in to say to ask how many people we would
Speaker 1: all like our funeral? Meaning if you were to die
Speaker 1: and then look down from the heavens, what would if
Speaker 1: you look down? What would you feel would be the
Speaker 1: right number? For me, it'd be like or up at
Speaker 1: the bottoms of their boots depending yep, yeah, looking up
Speaker 1: looking up from hell? How many people would you like
Speaker 1: to see there? But the reason that I'm thinking about
Speaker 1: that now as I had wanted. Um, I haven't codified,
Speaker 1: I haven't written this down, but I know where I
Speaker 1: want my carcass dumped. I don't want to be cremated
Speaker 1: or buried. I want to be surface dispersed in it's
Speaker 1: a piece of public land, um. And I know the
Speaker 1: exact spot, and I've explained it my wife. I want
Speaker 1: to be surface dumped there in order to be ravaged
Speaker 1: by wild beasts. Yeah. Um and I realized now besides
Speaker 1: the incredible headache, because this is they're gonna have to
Speaker 1: whoever does this has to haul my I think they
Speaker 1: should part it out and game bag, but they gotta
Speaker 1: pack me in four miles and then dump my surface,
Speaker 1: dumped my carcass. And now I'm thinking about there's that's
Speaker 1: probably illegal, hand definitely illegal. But you know what, Crazy Horse,
Speaker 1: I'm not liking myself to these people in anyway. I'm
Speaker 1: just I just know because I've been interested in having
Speaker 1: my body, I would like my body to be dumped
Speaker 1: in the woods in the mountains. Um. So in warning
Speaker 1: about the legality of that, I've looked at cases where
Speaker 1: there are uh where people have gone and dump people
Speaker 1: buried people. Crazy Horse after he was killed in Nebraska,
Speaker 1: uh by bayonet was they've never found his body. They
Speaker 1: took him out of the fort and so he's somewhere
Speaker 1: buried there. No one knows where jam knew a crack
Speaker 1: in the rocks. Perhaps no one's ever found Crazy Horse's
Speaker 1: body at abbey. His friends dumped him and they have
Speaker 1: never divulged. Ah. I think that the Grizzly Bear researcher
Speaker 1: Doug Peacock was involved in this. They've never divulged where
Speaker 1: they put his carcass. So I would like to. I
Speaker 1: really would like to be surface dumped. But it's like
Speaker 1: maybe there is a way around it. You know, I
Speaker 1: don't know. Have you been have you looked into it? No,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna make it clear that that's what i
Speaker 1: want done. And then if the people who are left
Speaker 1: to do this, which I presumably be my children, if
Speaker 1: they're left to do this and they really honestly just
Speaker 1: do not want to follow their father's dying wishes, I
Speaker 1: will leave that decision to them. If not, I feel
Speaker 1: like they're going to have to do it and they're
Speaker 1: gonna have to face the consequences. However minor they might
Speaker 1: be like, yes, you're honored we took an old man's
Speaker 1: carcass out and dumped in the woods. Yeah. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: sure a lawyer is crafting the email right now to
Speaker 1: us to explain how we can get get around and
Speaker 1: get it done. So Pat, all fifty states have a
Speaker 1: no harass and hunter law. And we started that with
Speaker 1: talking about how many people are going to be at
Speaker 1: the funeral. Yeah, we didn't get that. How many people
Speaker 1: are gonna be at your funeral? How many people do
Speaker 1: you want at your funeral as well? It's gonna have
Speaker 1: to be the least. Is that your funeral enough to
Speaker 1: curry the body? Yeah, like I don't want I still
Speaker 1: want to be fun So thirty forty pounds per persons
Speaker 1: like I take four people to carry it. Imagine some
Speaker 1: other people are going to go to if I look
Speaker 1: down and saw ten, but see, it depends on when
Speaker 1: I die, because like right now, I'd expect certain family
Speaker 1: members to be there, but presume me they'll be dead
Speaker 1: when I die, So I don't know. Like I would
Speaker 1: like if I looked down and saw less than three,
Speaker 1: I know there's a real problem because I have three children,
Speaker 1: right so less than three would be one that my
Speaker 1: life was destroyed by the loss of one of my children,
Speaker 1: at which point I don't care what happens to me
Speaker 1: after I die, and then uh ten eleven. I feel
Speaker 1: like there's some people down there who probably shouldn't be there.
Speaker 1: They're just going because they want to see this all
Speaker 1: play out. I was gonna volunteer, I'd say, you know,
Speaker 1: I'd be happy to take three or forty pounds of
Speaker 1: you and drop you somewhere. But I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: you're gonna have to We're gonna have to work on
Speaker 1: the timing a little. This coming from a man who
Speaker 1: pulled out his hearing aids and laid him on the table.
Speaker 1: And unfortunately I can't have the bullshit filters on now.
Speaker 1: So and I'd volunteered too, steep, but I'm older than Dougs.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I would like to thank you guys. Be
Speaker 1: long dead dog? Are you gonna be buried at your farm? Uh?
Speaker 1: You know, we've talked about that a bunch of trying
Speaker 1: to figured out we drove making a fat making a
Speaker 1: family plot. Well, we have a big old family plot
Speaker 1: up at the where I went to church, and that
Speaker 1: that cemetery. My family was a part of the establishment
Speaker 1: of that church and everything, and that's where all I'm like,
Speaker 1: my brother is buried there, my dad's buried there, my grandparents,
Speaker 1: my I mean, you go out there and you can't
Speaker 1: swing a cat in that cemetery without hitting a dirt
Speaker 1: in tombstone. So, um, you can't swing a cat around
Speaker 1: there without hitting a dirt. Well, that's that's true. Road
Speaker 1: down the road is named during road Um, I put
Speaker 1: some of my dad's ashes under his favorite deer stand
Speaker 1: on the farm. Remember that. And did you put anything
Speaker 1: in the family plot? Yeah, you didn't like cremate part
Speaker 1: of them and very part of them. No, it was
Speaker 1: all cremated. So there's a little urn in the family
Speaker 1: plot and then up there. So those are the two places,
Speaker 1: because you know, the Pope said, we don't want people
Speaker 1: scattering ashes all around the country. Keep your keep your
Speaker 1: pile together as close as it can be. And I
Speaker 1: figured that was close enough. My sister in law, um,
Speaker 1: on her ranch, they have I guess what passes as
Speaker 1: a cemetery cemetery to them. Yeah, I've seen it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she would heard my brother got married. It's like you
Speaker 1: could look often as a rock pile or whatever over
Speaker 1: there where grandfather and Mr Potter get married right on
Speaker 1: top of the bones of your ancestors on your own land.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's nice. Um. And now she's got grizzlies on
Speaker 1: her place, so I might just be able to do
Speaker 1: my whole body dump. You'd be gone tomorrow. Did he
Speaker 1: did he have any other context with the question or
Speaker 1: that that was it? You just wanted to know how
Speaker 1: many people. We just wanted to know what you would
Speaker 1: think of as good enough. What's your answer? Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: never really thought about it. I guess that's the thing.
Speaker 1: It's all about the timing, because you hope, now if
Speaker 1: it happened that, yeah, there could be a thousand people there. Okay, No, No,
Speaker 1: I'm just saying whatever, some great amount of you know,
Speaker 1: friends and peers and whatever, that you've had that kind
Speaker 1: of reach that so many people would like to come
Speaker 1: and support you. But yeah, when you're you know, my
Speaker 1: recently deceased grandmother's age, you don't she didn't have any
Speaker 1: peers everybody, So you know, we had quite you know,
Speaker 1: we had almost forty people there though, which was like
Speaker 1: I didn't expect it, you know, but you forget how many,
Speaker 1: like I think, little tentacles you know, people have out there,
Speaker 1: and how many you know, close associations you have. It
Speaker 1: was funny to bring up the you know, my father,
Speaker 1: as I talk about many times, my father fought in
Speaker 1: World War Two, so he had me when he was
Speaker 1: fifty years old, and I was raised around retired as
Speaker 1: a kid, I was brought up around retired or semi
Speaker 1: retired World War Two vets. To a large degree, many
Speaker 1: of my dad's best friends that way and they just fished. Um,
Speaker 1: there's that whole circle. There's only there's one left who
Speaker 1: lives down the beach for my mom. And I think
Speaker 1: about that guy from like Last Man Standing, Like all
Speaker 1: of that guy's friends that he spent his entire adult
Speaker 1: life with have just been whittled away. And he was
Speaker 1: a he was a pilot in World War Two, and
Speaker 1: it's like his Like when that guy wakes up and
Speaker 1: goes to call his buddies, ain't know oning to call
Speaker 1: man He has ran out of him, you know over
Speaker 1: the last ten fifteen years. Well he's got younger buddies now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but like the main you know, the main people that
Speaker 1: I watched him spend decades, they're just gone. But what's
Speaker 1: what's fun about? Not fun, But what's I think fascinating
Speaker 1: about wakes and funerals all is their their colleagues are gone.
Speaker 1: There's there's siblings are gone in any case, like my
Speaker 1: dad died, and yet you see all the people who
Speaker 1: they touched that you never had any idea how they
Speaker 1: touched them. They show at the at the wake and
Speaker 1: you think, oh dad did Okay, Yeah, that's that's fascinating
Speaker 1: because that is I mean, you had some awareness of it,
Speaker 1: but until you until they die and you hold a wake,
Speaker 1: you don't know what the hell your parents, what holiday work,
Speaker 1: their magic outside the family, and it was it was
Speaker 1: a kind of a cool process to see you. So, Ni,
Speaker 1: what's your final number? Let's say you died right now,
Speaker 1: you just fell over dead right now because your heart problem.
Speaker 1: Would you want to be just like me and your wife?
Speaker 1: Or just me or a hundred? I think I'd be
Speaker 1: probably pretty happy if just my family was there, and
Speaker 1: I would feel gracious if they was a hundred of
Speaker 1: my friends. I guess so big numbers. Yeah, so you'd
Speaker 1: want to look up from hell and see two hundred
Speaker 1: boots everybody having a big party, two booths belonging into
Speaker 1: one people. Oh, I wanted to be so somber when
Speaker 1: I died. I don't like this celebration of life. It's
Speaker 1: gonna be just. I wanted to be sad. I wanted
Speaker 1: the ground to be wet with tears. Man. Um, Well,
Speaker 1: don't I get to say how I want to go?
Speaker 1: I do want to hear. Would you like to hear
Speaker 1: how many you'd like to have? Um? If I I'd
Speaker 1: say that it would be cremated or my big wish,
Speaker 1: but will never happened. I've always liked the idea that
Speaker 1: did in the Navy in World War Two. They get
Speaker 1: a big sack, throw to your body in there, throw
Speaker 1: a couple of big empty shell cases in these big
Speaker 1: brass shell cases off the side your goal. That's how
Speaker 1: Osama bin Laden was buried. Yeah, basically I saw that.
Speaker 1: That's kind of cool way. You know, people don't have
Speaker 1: to come and weep over a grave site. You know,
Speaker 1: they know you're out there somewhere, and that's good enough
Speaker 1: for me. So that's my um. So you'd be taken
Speaker 1: out to see another way they used to do it.
Speaker 1: They put you in a sort of flammable boat. And
Speaker 1: so the boat full of like brush and sticks and whatnot,
Speaker 1: lay your carcass out on it, set the boat on fire,
Speaker 1: and push it out right. Do you remember who it was?
Speaker 1: Because I feel like that was popularized by some movie,
Speaker 1: was popularized by dead Man. No, the burning part wasn't
Speaker 1: in dead Man and Jim Jarmus's film dead Man, which
Speaker 1: is probably the greatest Western ever made, one of the
Speaker 1: greatest Western's ever made. Um In the end, he puts
Speaker 1: a what is in fact a live person that he
Speaker 1: thinks is dead and come back to life, puts him
Speaker 1: in a boat and says, it's time for you to
Speaker 1: go back to where you came from. Got it? But
Speaker 1: have you seen Jim Jarmus is dead? Man? It sounds
Speaker 1: like I gotta tell you the remaster. But how many people?
Speaker 1: Many people? Um? People who were close? None? It was
Speaker 1: a navy ship. It was on deck. Yeah, and that's
Speaker 1: I'd say. If we're a tug boat, that'd be fine
Speaker 1: with me. You know what, I need eight people, That's fine.
Speaker 1: If I thought it had a navy connection, I'd be
Speaker 1: cool with it. Well, your daughter will bill pull strings?
Speaker 1: Because that's right? I could I could, you know, keep
Speaker 1: her on? Well, she'd go to the top brass like, hey,
Speaker 1: h here's the deal bag over there. We need to
Speaker 1: take a little ride. I need a boat ride. I've
Speaker 1: never thought of this. The only thing that I've ever
Speaker 1: thought about was that that whole thing about leading your
Speaker 1: life and writing your your own obituary and then leading
Speaker 1: your life accordingly. That's not something I thought about a lot.
Speaker 1: But I did want to say about my dad. Was
Speaker 1: he and another guy, Pete Melford and has obvious the
Speaker 1: last two World War two vets and neither one of
Speaker 1: those guys wanted to give up. It was like a
Speaker 1: grudge match between the two of them, how long they
Speaker 1: were going to live and stead Pete don't lived Dad
Speaker 1: h and that that was interesting because my father was
Speaker 1: like pats of you know, pillar of the community and
Speaker 1: how many people came through and yeah, you really do
Speaker 1: see how um you're the tentacles the influence that he'd
Speaker 1: had over people in the community, and um, I guess
Speaker 1: that's the kind of thing that, uh, that's really gratifying.
Speaker 1: But you know, personally, I never thought about it. M
Speaker 1: probably won't. I'll just be dead. Yeah, that's the other
Speaker 1: thing I think about all the time. It's like, who cares,
Speaker 1: I'm just dead anyway, because but but the thing is
Speaker 1: death planning big business. Well yeah, but it's like it's
Speaker 1: you do it. You make your wishes alive because you're
Speaker 1: just saying what you what in life. I like the
Speaker 1: idea of so the execution of it. The fact that
Speaker 1: people feel beholden to carry out your wishes really says something.
Speaker 1: Because there's no ramification. You can't get pissed at him
Speaker 1: at them from the wouldn't have done what you wanted
Speaker 1: me to do. The heavens or hells or whatever the
Speaker 1: microbial form that you wind up taking. So pat fifty
Speaker 1: states have ANTI Is it covered by is it covered
Speaker 1: by fishing too? I know trapping our fishing is fishing protected?
Speaker 1: I don't know if it is. I don't. I haven't
Speaker 1: seen anything specific basically hunting and trapping. I think because
Speaker 1: because those are the ones that who had asked the
Speaker 1: fisherman when other fishermen, Yeah, her asked by other fishermen.
Speaker 1: And I've been harassed by people who own the land
Speaker 1: where I might have the be fishing without permission at times.
Speaker 1: But that's more. That's different. But it's good to know.
Speaker 1: So anyone who's listening, if they ever have someone come
Speaker 1: out and harass them while hunting, pick up your phone
Speaker 1: or go do go to a phone and call to
Speaker 1: get the person in trouble. Yeah. And the one that
Speaker 1: the case you see quite often these days is on
Speaker 1: public lands to where a guy um has a tree
Speaker 1: stand up and comes back a couple years later in
Speaker 1: this tree stands laying the ground or it's been um
Speaker 1: damaged in some way and realized what he inadvertently moved
Speaker 1: down to some other guys. You know, turf who thinks
Speaker 1: he's entitled that spot. He's been hunting the spot for
Speaker 1: over a long or what happens in Wisconsin lot is
Speaker 1: a damn bait piles. These guys started maintaining a bait pile.
Speaker 1: They start thinking that's their bait pile, their property, and
Speaker 1: then they defended, and so you have these wardens have
Speaker 1: to go in there and separate these guys and say,
Speaker 1: you know, this isn't your land. He has a very
Speaker 1: right to be here. And they say how those kinds disputes.
Speaker 1: Wisconsin's got an interesting going on going on right now.
Speaker 1: They passed a law last year to prevent animal rights
Speaker 1: activists from even filming and videotaping, recording images repeat that
Speaker 1: the losses something like repeatedly, And I personally think that
Speaker 1: one was going to get shot down in courts because
Speaker 1: I don't know how you can prevent someone like me,
Speaker 1: a journalist and taking a picture of guys down the road,
Speaker 1: like let's say, bear hunters getting their dodge rated to goal.
Speaker 1: And that's what's happening. Was this came up because um,
Speaker 1: a case came up where some animal rights activists were
Speaker 1: up building Wisconsin monitoring the bear hunters, the wolf hunters.
Speaker 1: The guys with the hounds didn't like the hounds up
Speaker 1: there chasing bears and wolves. I can't think of that.
Speaker 1: I think it's mainly what worrying about wolf hunting though,
Speaker 1: And so they they got some lawmaker to write write
Speaker 1: a bill saying you can't write a law, it's actually
Speaker 1: law now that you can't repeatedly stand there like in
Speaker 1: a road and video tip these guys down the road
Speaker 1: doing their business. That seems like a stretch. Yes, that's
Speaker 1: a stretch because I think you get then you're the
Speaker 1: public exactly. I mean, yeah, you can't go into some
Speaker 1: guy's property and do that that. You couldn't do that anyway,
Speaker 1: I'd be trespassing. And if you follow them through the
Speaker 1: woods it could be harassment, right. But just to stand
Speaker 1: there on the road and shoot down am an old
Speaker 1: logging road, that kind of thing, I think that gets
Speaker 1: in the First Amendment stuff. I don't know how that
Speaker 1: whatever will stand the test of time in courts, but um, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's you talked. Almost anyone up in public lands up
Speaker 1: north right now. Almost everyone has some kind of story
Speaker 1: like that where there they left a tree stand out,
Speaker 1: or they have a bait piled, the buddy at a
Speaker 1: bait pile is always all those kind of stories that's
Speaker 1: common now that liked Hunter on Hunter, Hunter and Hunter.
Speaker 1: And then when I mentioned earlier, the backyard situations are
Speaker 1: becoming more common because you have more suburban hunting UM
Speaker 1: Washington on the suburbs of our our nation's capital, UM,
Speaker 1: these northern very in your neighborhoods. There's a pretty good
Speaker 1: case where the Archery Trade Association, which I do a
Speaker 1: lot of work with, actually got involved and provide an
Speaker 1: attorney to fight it because when his neighborhood associations was
Speaker 1: trying to prevent a guy trying to prevent a bowl
Speaker 1: hunting group when he's UM. They had these cool bowling
Speaker 1: groups in these big urban areas that go out and
Speaker 1: shoot deer in people's yards basically try to knock knock
Speaker 1: the herd down. And this one guy, one group that
Speaker 1: was doing that a lot. They were getting harassed and
Speaker 1: being told and actually legally not, you can't hunt this neighborhood.
Speaker 1: And our association, you know, you know, has a um
Speaker 1: what do you call his covenants to prevent that well,
Speaker 1: Archie Trade Association took it on, got their lawyer involved
Speaker 1: and got a struct struck it got strucken stricken down
Speaker 1: because it was just, you know, it violates some they
Speaker 1: you know, home owners associations cannot dictate hunting rules. That's
Speaker 1: the state's province unless they own the land. Unless they
Speaker 1: own the land. Yeah, but but they're it reminds me
Speaker 1: of an old joke. They're dictating it to their dictating
Speaker 1: it to other landowners, and you can't do that. So
Speaker 1: that's that's why they Yeah, because the state is jealous
Speaker 1: of states detective of its rights on it to manage hunting.
Speaker 1: And from the big point of view is that while
Speaker 1: they're representing us, you know, the state wildlife associated agencies,
Speaker 1: they represent us, and so they're looking out for our
Speaker 1: rights by by by fighting it. So so that's where
Speaker 1: these cases are gone. It's not it's no longer the
Speaker 1: animal rights people typically creating the problems. It's it's hunters
Speaker 1: and neighbors that kind of things. Just to be clear,
Speaker 1: because I happen to have very personal Uh I don't
Speaker 1: want to say it like covenant expertise. Well, yeah, but
Speaker 1: I got I got some skin in this game. Um,
Speaker 1: because yeah, my supposed h a which you know, it
Speaker 1: came in perpetunity with the property right, so we never
Speaker 1: signed anything, has never been a meeting. We don't pay
Speaker 1: any dues. There's maybe twenty rules you know there they
Speaker 1: were supposed to follow, and one of them is no
Speaker 1: hunting with firearms only only you can hunt with the boat.
Speaker 1: Doesn't say you can't shoot firearms, which you can't hunt
Speaker 1: with firearms. And you're saying that they cannot enforce that.
Speaker 1: I bet you if if if you were to challenge it,
Speaker 1: they have a hard time defending it because that's truly
Speaker 1: a state. Um, that's a state issue. They can't be
Speaker 1: dictating that. But you know, cities can pass ordinance, so
Speaker 1: off it's a safety they can provide. They can do that.
Speaker 1: No firearms in the village and have firearms in the city. No,
Speaker 1: So it's a matter. It seems like if it's a
Speaker 1: neighborhood association and there's like common ground in the middle
Speaker 1: of it, you know, and the houses are all around it,
Speaker 1: that if they own that as a group, or that
Speaker 1: was a part of that development or whatever, they I
Speaker 1: don't see I've got by mixing the hunting into I
Speaker 1: think I think it complicates a situation. What I'd like
Speaker 1: to see. What's starting to concern me is when the
Speaker 1: the agencies that will run like a bear hunt, but
Speaker 1: they'll have a mandatory check station. So Florida did this
Speaker 1: and they're ill fated bear hunt. New Jersey and they're
Speaker 1: soon to be ill fated bear hunt. They actually elected
Speaker 1: a governor who ran on an anti bear hunting, had
Speaker 1: an anti bear hunting plank in his platform. I don't
Speaker 1: need It's just we got an email from a guy
Speaker 1: who uh started hunting, and then got started hunting, got divorced,
Speaker 1: and now his ex wife goes down to join the
Speaker 1: bear hunting protesters. So he said his life's become a
Speaker 1: real joke, really joke at his circle of friends. But
Speaker 1: they have these check stations, and they make an actual
Speaker 1: protest area at the check station, so the people can
Speaker 1: come down and harass hunters who are legally obligated to
Speaker 1: go to that specific check station rather than to be
Speaker 1: able to go to you know, a facility. Normal you
Speaker 1: go to check something. You go to the fishing game office, right,
Speaker 1: and you go in, you go into a enclosed area
Speaker 1: or whatever and do a check things. So they gotta
Speaker 1: like set off like a protest zone so people can
Speaker 1: heckle and harass people who are fulfilling one they're legally
Speaker 1: allowed to hunt. They're fulfilling their legal obligation to check
Speaker 1: the thing, but they got to do so against the
Speaker 1: back drop. Wow, I'm surprised to let that go of
Speaker 1: a bunch of you, who's well, you can't prevent people
Speaker 1: from protesting the laws or not physically doing something to
Speaker 1: the people. Yeah, at a Turkey check station. I'm guessing
Speaker 1: no one shows up. When you have a Turkey check station,
Speaker 1: you probably don't need to have an area. And I
Speaker 1: see at that point it's not really harassment because they're
Speaker 1: not affecting the hunt. I don't like it in this world.
Speaker 1: There are things where like That's why I would like
Speaker 1: to be an absolute dictator, because um, because then I
Speaker 1: wouldn't have to worry about the legal like just certain
Speaker 1: rules I wanted to have it. I don't have to
Speaker 1: worry about why, like how to justify them. I'd be like, Oh,
Speaker 1: in addition to all that, I don't want this to
Speaker 1: happen either, and I don't. I can't explain why, just
Speaker 1: don't like it. I just don't like it, can't and
Speaker 1: I don't won't. I don't care what you think. Watch
Speaker 1: this segue speaking of hunter harrassment, Speaking of hunter harassment,
Speaker 1: Pat Durkin, I think that that's that blue laws are
Speaker 1: a form of hunter harassment. Can you explain a blue law?
Speaker 1: I just sprang this on Pat okay Um, I'll right
Speaker 1: away start with an apology that I'm not from my
Speaker 1: state that has ever had blue laws. I think, yeahgize.
Speaker 1: I apologize as saying I'm not the most versed in
Speaker 1: this topics, so I'm sure someone will will correct me
Speaker 1: on this. But I do remember I have some experience
Speaker 1: in this because when I was stationed in Virginia back
Speaker 1: in the seventies, UM Virginia had a blue law, and
Speaker 1: I think it's still in effect. In the blue law
Speaker 1: basically from my understanding, was that UM stores like big
Speaker 1: department stores, UM shopping malls, UM hunting. You could not
Speaker 1: go out on Sundays and the hunt. You couldn't go
Speaker 1: out and shop at these big shopping malls. All those
Speaker 1: stores are shut down, so you couldn't shop or hunt.
Speaker 1: You couldn't shop or hunt. You could go fishing, though,
Speaker 1: But but I this has to do with the Sabbath, right,
Speaker 1: I'm sure it has to do with the Sabbath, because
Speaker 1: the only place I'm aware of, well, actually I think, um,
Speaker 1: I think until recently, I think Matttoba had no Sunday hunting,
Speaker 1: or Saskatchewan one of those provinces had a too. Is fine,
Speaker 1: It's not just a Southern thing. It's something that I think, right,
Speaker 1: certain religions, UM just didn't think it's proper to be
Speaker 1: hunting on Sundays. Pennsylvania, like our man Brody Henderson, frequent
Speaker 1: guest here, wrote a piece on our website. If you
Speaker 1: go to the mediator dot com, you look up Brody's
Speaker 1: piece about about blue laws, which which me and everyone
Speaker 1: I know it feels that they should be just categorically
Speaker 1: repealed across the board. Um, it's it's it's just like
Speaker 1: upsetting to me. But that you can fish as though,
Speaker 1: as though like to think that the God would look
Speaker 1: down and be mad at a guy solemnly sitting in
Speaker 1: his tree stand all day, okay, in quiet contemplation as
Speaker 1: he awaits the arrival of a deer that he knows
Speaker 1: will probably not show up, and God would be mad
Speaker 1: at that guy. But then some dude sitting on the
Speaker 1: edge of a pine, swilling beers and yelling back and
Speaker 1: forth up and down the bank with his buddies fishing
Speaker 1: all day. It's like that that, right, it just doesn't
Speaker 1: make sense. Well, I think they would probably look back
Speaker 1: now and look at that as a failure in their
Speaker 1: part when they made the rule. It's just that we
Speaker 1: should have thrown in Fishing's definitely because if and watching football,
Speaker 1: even playing football on Sundays. I mean, the goal has
Speaker 1: got to be to get more people through the church stores, right, Doug,
Speaker 1: did you actually raise your hand. I've been, I've been
Speaker 1: helps it helps to do that, you know. I don't wanna,
Speaker 1: I don't wanna interrupt. I think that the fishing thing
Speaker 1: is probably because the Apostles were all fishermen. I like that.
Speaker 1: I like that. Yeah, when told to uh, that great
Speaker 1: story cast your nets on the other side of the boat,
Speaker 1: that Bible story. Yes, um, that could be now. I
Speaker 1: used to trap on some land, not Amish, but I
Speaker 1: used to trap on a lot of Mennonite properties. And
Speaker 1: they keep I believe, I believe they are men. I
Speaker 1: believe they kept a Saturday Sabbath which was like the
Speaker 1: original set people used to think that everybody think that
Speaker 1: Saturday was the Sabbath sundown, like that's how the Jews
Speaker 1: on it, right, sundown, Friday sundown, Saturday. I used to
Speaker 1: trap on their land. They wouldn't like check traps on
Speaker 1: the Sabbath. They didn't want anybody out running traps because
Speaker 1: they honored the Sabbath. They weren't like doing weird shortcuts, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, they were like stripped by the book. Um,
Speaker 1: and I would trap fox so you can't not check
Speaker 1: your you know, you gotta you gotta check traps every morning,
Speaker 1: early earlier, the better I'd have to go pull them all.
Speaker 1: I'd pull them all on Friday, then reset on Sunday
Speaker 1: because you can't just leave them out and not run them.
Speaker 1: But there I was like more indulgent because there I
Speaker 1: was like, you know what you have? You go so
Speaker 1: far out of your way to stay true to an
Speaker 1: understanding of a text right that there, I feel like
Speaker 1: like I'm like, yeah, I get it. But when people
Speaker 1: who are just like so randomly sort of cherry pick
Speaker 1: parts that they're like, oh, I'm gonna I agree with
Speaker 1: that part that part, never mind, then I get a
Speaker 1: little bit intolerant. Of it. Yeah, and what's fascinating to
Speaker 1: me about that? Not hunting on Sundays. I had shipmates
Speaker 1: who were from Virginia and they're from southern states that
Speaker 1: had blue laws, and I'd tell him one, in Wisconsin,
Speaker 1: we don't have that. We can hunt all seven days
Speaker 1: the week. And aren't you working to repeal this? Why
Speaker 1: don't you get rid of that? And they looked at
Speaker 1: me like I was nuts. You know, that's just unheard
Speaker 1: of it. You would go and shoot a gun on
Speaker 1: a Sunday. They didn't didn't like that idea. They'd fight it.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's the peacefulness of the day. But by point
Speaker 1: was this, but most guys only can hunt the weekend.
Speaker 1: So here you are eliminating your eliminating your hunting. You're
Speaker 1: cutting it down by oh yeah. I My story in
Speaker 1: my typical week kind of hunting in Virginia would be
Speaker 1: to lead the ship on Friday night, drive five hours
Speaker 1: out um Bath County, Virginia, hunt all day Saturday, shut
Speaker 1: down Sunday, hunt half the day Monday, and then then
Speaker 1: drive back the ship. And I just just used to
Speaker 1: drive me nuts giving up that Sunday go I go
Speaker 1: scouting and stuff. But it's not the same. Now I'm
Speaker 1: getting ripped off here. Another thing, another piece of another
Speaker 1: piece of this that's not related, but simply reminded that
Speaker 1: I'm reminded of. It's something we talked about earlier, which
Speaker 1: is that a lot of states um cut off, cut
Speaker 1: off your hunt day at some time. Hm. I only
Speaker 1: know that for turkeys. Wells myle Manu's talk about this
Speaker 1: mile Man in Post Warriors. They would go down to
Speaker 1: hunt geese, and they would hunt geese some places where
Speaker 1: you could only hunt geese till I can't remember what
Speaker 1: it was noon. But this is back when there weren't
Speaker 1: that many Canada geese, you know, like like it wasn't
Speaker 1: like it wasn't like today where they're trying to like
Speaker 1: come up with creative ways to inspire people to kill
Speaker 1: more Canada geese. Uh, that's better. There weren't that many geese,
Speaker 1: but you couldn't huntil noon. And he said those geese
Speaker 1: would sit on a refuge and they would like normally
Speaker 1: a goose wakes up in the morning and the first
Speaker 1: thing on his mind, he's gonna leave his roost and
Speaker 1: they roost on open water, big open water. He's gonna
Speaker 1: leave his roost and go eat. The law had trained
Speaker 1: that those geese had learned to sit on the roost,
Speaker 1: and they would sit on the roost. And he said
Speaker 1: he could be exaggerating, but he said it was like
Speaker 1: at twelve oh one, the geese would leave the roost
Speaker 1: and go feed in the fields. They had picked it up. Wow. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but now it's primarily a turkey thing. We're hunting. California
Speaker 1: have to quit hunting turkeys at three. In Missouri, you
Speaker 1: have to quit hunting turkeys at one, I believe, and
Speaker 1: I think California was four. I feel like it was
Speaker 1: a very odd time, like very late in the day,
Speaker 1: because they don't want you going in. Well, what do
Speaker 1: you think of this path? Are started off? We kind
Speaker 1: of adopted um Missouri's rule. We are started off with
Speaker 1: noon and the explanation we got was that get the
Speaker 1: turkeys to break in the afternoon and made it easier
Speaker 1: to call the next day. They got it. They had
Speaker 1: all these different rationales for the gobble, more than that
Speaker 1: being pestered all through the day, and then um also
Speaker 1: the argument that they didn't like, they didn't think like
Speaker 1: the idea that people could sit and wait for them
Speaker 1: to come back to a roosting area and shooting mouth,
Speaker 1: you know, coming basically ambushing coming back to roost. But
Speaker 1: you know we had only worked so well. It only
Speaker 1: works so well because the turkey doesn't have agree in
Speaker 1: his life. Like what, Doug, you look like you're like
Speaker 1: either having a heart attack or like what what? Well,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go in that whole thing about turkeys
Speaker 1: not using the same rusts and no listen, listen, yeah
Speaker 1: I am, I am unplugged his thing. Turkeys do you
Speaker 1: like to use the same rust? They do not feel
Speaker 1: married to a roust, use it when it suits them.
Speaker 1: But the idea, unless you're talking about some extreme desert
Speaker 1: situation where you have an oasis that has like a
Speaker 1: couple of sycamores growing in the bottom of it and
Speaker 1: that's the only way for that some bitch to get
Speaker 1: up off the ground, then you might kind of have
Speaker 1: him by the short hairs when it comes to setting
Speaker 1: up on his rust. Most turkeys like they'll roost in
Speaker 1: the same tree a bunch of nights in a row
Speaker 1: unless there's a reason not to. Okay, yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: want to get on plugs, so I agree with you.
Speaker 1: Now what what I don't understand. It's still it's it
Speaker 1: can be. It's totally go workable tactic. I mean, I've
Speaker 1: killed a handful of birds, but they're not like Okay,
Speaker 1: when I was recist, when I was researching my Buffalo book,
Speaker 1: I would read about hide hunters out on the Texas
Speaker 1: planes who would find an isolated water hole that was
Speaker 1: getting used, and when it got dark out, they would
Speaker 1: build fires and make a lot of rockets around the
Speaker 1: water hole to prevent any animals from approaching during the
Speaker 1: dark when it was hard to see them, and shoot
Speaker 1: and work in order to only allow them the opportunity
Speaker 1: to even think about coming for water during the daylight
Speaker 1: hours when you could kill them. And they would do
Speaker 1: it in a way or they knew they had heard,
Speaker 1: you know the technical term by the short hairs and
Speaker 1: having identified its sole water source. Okay, that to to
Speaker 1: act like sitting a roost for turkeys is somehow where
Speaker 1: you're sort of like got them and you've you've backed
Speaker 1: them into a corner. Now, isn't true? Oh and now
Speaker 1: you're getting back to like the law of reasoning, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I told hi, I'm beyond the law reason. I'm just
Speaker 1: saying like I I don't think that that. I think
Speaker 1: that if you gave me the opportunity, here's the thing,
Speaker 1: I'm talking turkey strategy. If you gave me the opportunity
Speaker 1: to know what tree he was in, to know where
Speaker 1: he's roosted up, I would rather know and not do
Speaker 1: anything about it than to have an idea where he
Speaker 1: might be coming, probably quietly at night, and try to
Speaker 1: exploit his coming into that. I would rather just know
Speaker 1: that he was there and going in the morning. Anyway,
Speaker 1: it just isn't fail safe. It's not a fail safe
Speaker 1: turkey way. What Doug, God, I can't even breathe now,
Speaker 1: let me finish my evolution in Wisconsin turkey hunting, please.
Speaker 1: So we so we went from noon. So for me,
Speaker 1: I lost. So that's okay. So for many years we
Speaker 1: had this neon closure. We could hunt from what basically
Speaker 1: dawn till till noon. And you feel that they borrowed
Speaker 1: it from the start up from Missouri. That's it kind
Speaker 1: of explained that to us from they were selling us
Speaker 1: on the whole idea of a turkey season. Well, a
Speaker 1: decade goes by or so I can't run an exact date.
Speaker 1: Let me start have any discussions about, um, well, why
Speaker 1: not extend the season late a day. We're losing all
Speaker 1: this opportunity for hunters to go out and hunt these
Speaker 1: these great new birds we have. And so eventually we
Speaker 1: compromised because Lavis just want to just have opened the
Speaker 1: whole day. But we compromised for a number of years
Speaker 1: a five o'clock closure. Five o'clock you had to shut down.
Speaker 1: And then that went on and this guy didn't fall.
Speaker 1: So then we talked about it again. And I can't
Speaker 1: remember again, Doug, wasn't that long ago we probably have
Speaker 1: said open the whole damn day and then also stupp
Speaker 1: in five days periods, run it all right back to
Speaker 1: back in the season opened town Wednesday goes all the
Speaker 1: way to Tuesday and stuff, because must be originally five
Speaker 1: days would be a Wednesday through Sunday. Boys are killing
Speaker 1: fifty thousand turkeys a year. Yeah, and yeah, and actually
Speaker 1: not the population is kind of stabilized. Phone, it's it's
Speaker 1: um you know, phone this level. You know, we're shooting
Speaker 1: less now than we were back in the days when
Speaker 1: we had you know, this five days season, I think,
Speaker 1: or at least it's not not that long ago. Wasn't that.
Speaker 1: It's it's so much about turkeys and how how smart
Speaker 1: they're about being hunted to actual numbers. It's not about
Speaker 1: so many how many hours in the day we get
Speaker 1: to hunt. And to your point about the roosting, we've
Speaker 1: been hunting them now all day until sunset for a
Speaker 1: number of years in the population hasn't collapsed, you so,
Speaker 1: And I've tried that where I've I saw him come
Speaker 1: off fro the roost the morning, I heard him come
Speaker 1: off the roost, and I go back in there in
Speaker 1: the evening and sit down in that area. Neither picked
Speaker 1: me off or whatever. But I've never have gotten that
Speaker 1: opportunity record shoot that gobbler come back through the spring woods.
Speaker 1: That never happened. It still hasn't, so I have you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean we've got roosting areas like where we got
Speaker 1: the birds this past year, that's traditionally there. But now
Speaker 1: again it's not that tree. But there's a whole sort
Speaker 1: of you know, a couple of different points and you're
Speaker 1: gonna be out there, So there's gonna be turkeys there
Speaker 1: in the afternoon, just like there's gonna be deer there
Speaker 1: in the afternoon. Because it's just that kind of place. So, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: of course it's not fail safe. So I agree with
Speaker 1: you if what you're gonna see, if we do wind
Speaker 1: up having problems with turkeys, what you're gonna see, I
Speaker 1: think before you see any adjustments in that area, you're
Speaker 1: gonna see adjustments and fall seasons. Sure. Fall seasons are
Speaker 1: like when you want to get serious, when you go like,
Speaker 1: oh man, we got a turkey problem or potential turkey problem.
Speaker 1: That's you're gonna see the triman's coming from these fall
Speaker 1: seasons that are hen hunts. Oh yeah. In Montana, one
Speaker 1: of the I think it's region two for turkeys. This
Speaker 1: spring you can kill two hands. I believe there might
Speaker 1: be one hand in the spring. They added one. They
Speaker 1: added a hand to the spring. So obviously that's saying
Speaker 1: that there's like they've got some and it's I think
Speaker 1: it's a place where there's a lot of private land
Speaker 1: and they're just overrun with yeah, and they're they're really
Speaker 1: trying to knock back the numbers. A thing to keep
Speaker 1: in mind in a place like Montana is turkeys aren't
Speaker 1: native there, right, So there are a lot of areas
Speaker 1: in Montana that have turkeys that would not because winners
Speaker 1: are so severe that have turkeys that would not have
Speaker 1: turkeys if it wasn't for turkeys being able to exploit
Speaker 1: cattle operations ice A Hunt area and basically the southeast
Speaker 1: quadrant of the state, and it's a lot of remote
Speaker 1: areas and turkeys are just by May, those turkeys dispersed everywhere,
Speaker 1: but those turkeys congregate in groupings of hundreds where cattle
Speaker 1: are being overwinded because they come in and pick grain
Speaker 1: out of the ship graining operations. And if you re
Speaker 1: moved those you would all together lose or like virtually
Speaker 1: lose the population. So I think in those places, because
Speaker 1: we're always having this conversation people like, oh, like blank
Speaker 1: is overpopulated or this species overpopulate, and you guys have
Speaker 1: to bring up like well, by whose measure, like who
Speaker 1: regards them? And often times you'll find that by whose
Speaker 1: measure winds up being an agricultural interest. So, yeah, if
Speaker 1: you've got a non native population of birds that are
Speaker 1: showing up on some guys farm, four hundred of them
Speaker 1: show up in November and they're gonna stick around till April,
Speaker 1: he might be like, by my measure, since I'm bearing,
Speaker 1: since I'm solely bearing the brunt of this all winter.
Speaker 1: By my measure, you've always got to shoot some of
Speaker 1: these hands, because that's when you start trimming into population.
Speaker 1: And I think our fall turkey season basically does runs now.
Speaker 1: We never get Oh yeah, it's just just never been
Speaker 1: much interest me. I was gonna ask you, do you
Speaker 1: have any idea what the numbers are turkeys killed in
Speaker 1: the fall compared to the spring. I haven't looked. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The only guy I know that's really into it was
Speaker 1: a friend of mine from from back home from school.
Speaker 1: He's really into because he raises he raises turkey dogs
Speaker 1: and so and you. In the tenth Legion he talks
Speaker 1: about this as well. Um. Colonel Tom Kelly discusses this
Speaker 1: in the tenth Legion that a fall hunting strategy. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm not telling you boys that, I'm telling the listeners
Speaker 1: how you're generally hunting unless you're bushwhacking turkeys and the spring.
Speaker 1: What you're doing is you're you're exploiting the fact that
Speaker 1: they're in their breeding cycle and you are going out
Speaker 1: and making the sound of a female in order to
Speaker 1: lure in the mail. The work it's hard is in
Speaker 1: Turkey land. How things generally work with turkeys, is it
Speaker 1: the male gobbles and does his deal in struts and displays,
Speaker 1: and females come to the mail. What you're trying to
Speaker 1: do is be so enticing that you kind of undo
Speaker 1: that and cause the male to come to the female.
Speaker 1: You're trying to generate some frustration on his part, and
Speaker 1: he's like, what is her problem? As will Primo says,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go show her just how pretty I am.
Speaker 1: And he comes in and you kill him and the fall.
Speaker 1: You can't you're not doing that because the hens don't
Speaker 1: care about you know, you're not. You're not gonna draw
Speaker 1: in gobblers, but making hands sound they don't care. They're
Speaker 1: not breathing them. So the trick is is to disperse
Speaker 1: a flock, because then you need to locate each other.
Speaker 1: But a human isn't fast enough to disperse the flock.
Speaker 1: Like a human generally, if you go tearing after a
Speaker 1: flock of turkeys, they're so fast and wary the way
Speaker 1: before you get there, they're just gonna run off as
Speaker 1: a group and not lose track of each other. But
Speaker 1: a dog is low to the ground and stealthy and
Speaker 1: so fast that he can get in amongst the flock
Speaker 1: and spook the ship out of him and send them
Speaker 1: going off in all manner directions, at which point you
Speaker 1: set up and start doing like a basically a hurting
Speaker 1: call that the hens make as they're trying to regroup,
Speaker 1: and they're just out there going we weep, we weep,
Speaker 1: an other little noises, and they come back together and
Speaker 1: you call him in and take a poke at him.
Speaker 1: We got lucky once and shot two gobblers out of
Speaker 1: a flock that we had basically kind of called in.
Speaker 1: But also we're just in the right spot where the
Speaker 1: flock was, you know, moving down and ridge towards us,
Speaker 1: and the shooting of the two birds dispersed the flock.
Speaker 1: And then we're sitting around, you know, Jack John and
Speaker 1: high five in and all excited. And then they the
Speaker 1: same thing happened. So we had dispersed the flock, and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden you can hear hands on both sides.
Speaker 1: What were they doing? It was? It was everything. It
Speaker 1: was kind of the cacophony. Yeah. Now, I got a
Speaker 1: buddy who used to when he kicked up a group
Speaker 1: of huns, he wouldn't shoot if he kicked up a
Speaker 1: group of huns. He would kind of like, look the
Speaker 1: hunsl split, you know, they're like one in his direction,
Speaker 1: three and at direction to an at direction he would
Speaker 1: kind of look at like after they all landed, he'd
Speaker 1: sort of picked like what would be the middle and
Speaker 1: go in and just with his mouth make a hun
Speaker 1: noise and pull huns back into him just for funds.
Speaker 1: He's but also has hunting. Same thing. What I'm getting
Speaker 1: at is this guy likes the fall turkey hunt because
Speaker 1: he likes those damn dogs, raises breeds and sells the
Speaker 1: dog whose specialty is busting up turkeys. There's a guy
Speaker 1: over in east central Wisconsin that does the turkey dogs
Speaker 1: and he gets his dogs from some place Virginia. I
Speaker 1: guess there's there's a I think one of the fun
Speaker 1: things about people what's hunting dogs is just how into
Speaker 1: it they get. And this guy drives all the way
Speaker 1: to Virginia. I get that when you breed a dog,
Speaker 1: which I forget the the breed now because I'm not
Speaker 1: a dog personal turkey busting dog, turkey busting dog. And
Speaker 1: and and he's um John Freezes his name f R. E.
Speaker 1: I s I think, And he's such like he loves
Speaker 1: that sports so much that he'll actually take anyone that
Speaker 1: calls him along. A guy. A guy wrote to me
Speaker 1: there a day city looked up this guy after reading
Speaker 1: my article, called him up, found his name in the
Speaker 1: phone book of Rubber and John invite him up from Chicago.
Speaker 1: I think took him hunting, showed him a good time.
Speaker 1: And of course the day I went up a seconds,
Speaker 1: I think he got one. I think he got one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but yeah, that hens are legal games, so no, yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to clarify, I do not have any problem whatsoever.
Speaker 1: So long is the stable that that that is you
Speaker 1: know that you have a good stable population of birds
Speaker 1: that hunters agree is a good stable population of birds.
Speaker 1: But in hunting, um sort of traditional use patterns are
Speaker 1: very important and and management and very important how we
Speaker 1: make our laws. And I if it had to come
Speaker 1: down and we had to pick spring or fall, I'm
Speaker 1: always gonna go song. I think most turkey hunt it's
Speaker 1: they don't call it spring fund it's spring thunder, right,
Speaker 1: they don't call that for no reason. It's not fall thunder,
Speaker 1: spring thunder Turkey. And I just feel like if someone's
Speaker 1: gonna have to get trimmed out definitely. If we do
Speaker 1: see lowering turkey numbers and someone's gotta get trimmed out,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but I'm gonna vote for it. Being the
Speaker 1: other guy, and my guests would be that you won't
Speaker 1: see that happening. As long as our hunting seasons are
Speaker 1: dominated by deer hunters, the fall hunt for deer hunting
Speaker 1: and bowl hunting wives gonna be so popular that that
Speaker 1: interest in turkey hunting wife is gonna be secondary. And
Speaker 1: plus you have waterfalling going on. So I just don't
Speaker 1: I don't think we've ever seen any any evidence in Wisconsin,
Speaker 1: WAGH in most states i'm aware of that has any
Speaker 1: problem with fall turkey hunting being a detriment, population irrelevant,
Speaker 1: basically good recreation. Like the take isn't substantial. It's almost
Speaker 1: like it's uh coincidental to other kind of hunting incidental incident. Well, okay,
Speaker 1: it's like Tyson sitting sitting in a tree with a
Speaker 1: four ten shooting squirrels with his bowl. This is the
Speaker 1: same kind of thing. Understand he he deer hunts with
Speaker 1: a four tent. He shoots squirrels with his four ten
Speaker 1: while bow hunting for deer. Yeah, and it's actually killed
Speaker 1: deer that way him so and used always say that,
Speaker 1: see if I can get a turkey that way too.
Speaker 1: So I kind of killed a turkey off his land.
Speaker 1: I think now I was on was right on the
Speaker 1: fence line there though, But that's where he actually did
Speaker 1: where he actually shot squirrels and then shot a buck.
Speaker 1: I don't know he was a squirrel hunter. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: not not not h Murphy level. He doesn't like go
Speaker 1: to work with the tails hanging off his hanging off
Speaker 1: his jacket and whatnot. Um. In the fall in the
Speaker 1: state of Wisconsin, the hunt turkey hunters killed almost five
Speaker 1: thousand turkeys. How many killing spring? Yeah, roughly they killed
Speaker 1: five thousand in the fall. Does it say the hand
Speaker 1: tom breakdown? Uh? And that was just the abstract. I
Speaker 1: just breezed through, so I didn't get down to the numbers.
Speaker 1: I see, you're running a Green Bay Packers turtleneck under
Speaker 1: your shirt for your benefit. Can I make a quick
Speaker 1: correction though? I was wrong. I was wrong about the Uh,
Speaker 1: the female hand harvest in Montana in the spring, it
Speaker 1: was all they increased the numbers dramatically. It's like four,
Speaker 1: but it's all fall. So there's no, no hand harvest
Speaker 1: in the spring good because come on, yeah, come on
Speaker 1: a buddy mine Tommy Edson, Um, you know he's a
Speaker 1: little bit baffled by no. But he likes sports. He
Speaker 1: likes college sports. He doesn't like pro sports. But in
Speaker 1: Washington State they just did the fishing rags. Can remembers
Speaker 1: the hunting rags of the fishing rags, but they did
Speaker 1: it in the Seahawks colors. He texts the cover to
Speaker 1: me and it's like, it's nothing sacred. Pat Durkin, you
Speaker 1: want to hear the breakdown real quickly. Just gonna close
Speaker 1: her out, but go ahead. It's a roughly fifty fifty fall. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Females to males and adult female surprisingly made up thirty
Speaker 1: of the total harvest. Juvenile hands eighteen, Gobbler's thirty five,
Speaker 1: Jake's twelve. M Yeah, so what's really incidental? Past? So
Speaker 1: you're running a Green Bay Packers notebook? That too? Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you had to pick, if, if if you had
Speaker 1: to pick, and someone said you can hunt the rest
Speaker 1: of your life or watch the Packers the rest of
Speaker 1: your life, what did you pick? Hunting maney in clothes? Good? Yeah, good?
Speaker 1: I actually miss quite a few games in the fall.
Speaker 1: Why don't you have a hunting turtleneck? Janni hasn't given
Speaker 1: me one. Uh. One of my comments on on the
Speaker 1: Packer Steve will be this is gonna count as your
Speaker 1: concluding thought. Oh, I forget that. Then I came up
Speaker 1: with a concluding thought. You know what I'm gonna do.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you mine. So now you are too
Speaker 1: concluding thoughts. Okay, um, I've I've told my kids, I've
Speaker 1: told my wife, I told close friends. Getting back to
Speaker 1: your whole stuff about funerals, this is the packers part.
Speaker 1: The packers stuff. If the day, when the day comes
Speaker 1: that I die, if I haven't done that will that will?
Speaker 1: I mean? And they're the ones that have to take
Speaker 1: care of me. And I guess I should say, when
Speaker 1: that day comes and they come to write my obituary,
Speaker 1: if I haven't done enough in my life to fill
Speaker 1: that obituary with substantial stuff, if they write them there
Speaker 1: he was a he was a die hard Packer fan.
Speaker 1: I'll be pissed because I'll think that that's what I
Speaker 1: accomplish in life, is anyone can be a Packer fan.
Speaker 1: So you want to live a life so full that
Speaker 1: when one fills up ex column inches of space. They
Speaker 1: do not have to get down that part of it.
Speaker 1: There won't be no no filling of this. It'll be
Speaker 1: like and the next thing days He had two cats,
Speaker 1: survived Fluffy and survived by When I see it and
Speaker 1: everybody will know it's good right. He was a die
Speaker 1: hard packer. When I see that in people's obituaries, I
Speaker 1: always feel like, God, that's the best you can come
Speaker 1: up with for your good old dad. He was a
Speaker 1: pack or fan is a badger fan. Come on. So
Speaker 1: that that was the one conclining thoughts. That's my instructions
Speaker 1: to my kids. That's the one I gave you, not
Speaker 1: giving you one the one I want to. I want to.
Speaker 1: I actually did thought this last week. I was down
Speaker 1: the Southeast Dear Study Group meeting it's doing. It was
Speaker 1: in Nashville this year, and I thought of you guys,
Speaker 1: because only studied deer of the Southeast or it's like
Speaker 1: in the Southeast, it's it's he it's held in the Southeast.
Speaker 1: And most of the research I do is is from
Speaker 1: the Southeastern Universities in Southeastern UM all operations that have
Speaker 1: like hunting clubs on their property and they actually do
Speaker 1: some research on it, and typically what it is, it's
Speaker 1: agency people, agency researchers that could be agencies from the
Speaker 1: federal government, state government. UM. Then also university and their
Speaker 1: graduate students and their doctoral students come in and get
Speaker 1: their research on deer and they all sounds pretty good.
Speaker 1: It's it's to me, I've been I've been going that
Speaker 1: was st year, gone to it and well you're going
Speaker 1: for twenty eight years. I started into this. I'll point
Speaker 1: know that Pat has more stuffed deer in his house
Speaker 1: than he's gone to that convention am than on this
Speaker 1: past year. But elk anyway, um so one of the
Speaker 1: things that must sting a lot in the in the
Speaker 1: southeast though, because it's a um a growing population still is.
Speaker 1: I'll say the word two different ways, you know, coyote
Speaker 1: the way I pronounced it and coyotes the way you're
Speaker 1: dugging you guys pronounce it. I'll call yeah, and if
Speaker 1: you really hate him, and then I don't hate him,
Speaker 1: but guys that do hate him, I find call him
Speaker 1: that The first thing I thought about you guys, because
Speaker 1: most of those I know, it's most of the university
Speaker 1: researchers pronounce a coyote. I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding.
Speaker 1: You know the ronella maxim on this right right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So that they exactly and so I thought, well, there
Speaker 1: goes Steve's theory because these guys, a lot of them
Speaker 1: are are trappers and they do a lot of reason
Speaker 1: still say coyote, coyote. Yeah, but um, I'll never switch.
Speaker 1: You don't have to, Steve, But but continue, I'll messing
Speaker 1: your story up. So there are year you've gone down. Okay,
Speaker 1: So one one the takeaways when the coolest papers I
Speaker 1: thought they presented was on was that on coyotes. And
Speaker 1: this guy named John Kilgual, he's a researcher from South Carolina.
Speaker 1: He you guys know that the typical theory on coyote
Speaker 1: um and why they can repopulate so quickly that the
Speaker 1: more you hammer them, they more they pop up. So
Speaker 1: this is based on research from the West. Basically that
Speaker 1: they the researchers looked at cadets out west and said,
Speaker 1: and more you shoot these things, the more they bounced back.
Speaker 1: So it's it's a feudal a fool's aaron to try
Speaker 1: to white pop coyotes. Can I can I add something?
Speaker 1: Go ahead. I hear this all the time. I hear
Speaker 1: and and and it's I don't have a hard time
Speaker 1: like that's easy to imagine. I think it's I think
Speaker 1: it's from what I've looked at, it's like, sure, that's
Speaker 1: that's true. If that was the case, then I would
Speaker 1: think that really pro kyo people would want hunters to
Speaker 1: hammer coyotes because it would make more coyotes. I like
Speaker 1: the argument, but they don't. They don't. They use it
Speaker 1: as a way to say, I like kyles, I want
Speaker 1: more kyles. You shouldn't shoot kyles because shooting kyotes made
Speaker 1: more kyles, and you wind up in this weird sort
Speaker 1: of rhetorical land. Uh. He made that point in one
Speaker 1: of your podcasts a while back. No, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: it's a it's a point worth repeating because I think
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a great point. And So, but what
Speaker 1: was fast thing about John John Kilgo's research I thought
Speaker 1: was that so that's the common thought that based on
Speaker 1: Western research, that the more counties you shoot, the more
Speaker 1: they will generate. They have a mechanism that's somehow they
Speaker 1: triggered this compensatory um or what they call compensatory mortality whatever. Anyway,
Speaker 1: John John's group went out in like over a two
Speaker 1: or three year period, trapped two or three five coyotes.
Speaker 1: Start checking to see is there evidence of boosted boosting
Speaker 1: the population to reproduction. But I found was that no,
Speaker 1: there's no compensatory reproduction taking place. Her. What's happening. The
Speaker 1: more the more you whack this one area, the more
Speaker 1: they come flooding in from the exterior areas. So unless
Speaker 1: you can have this huge geographic area where you use hammering,
Speaker 1: the hell of these coyotes, they just keep coming back.
Speaker 1: And so his completing thought was, it's it's it's futile.
Speaker 1: We've gotta going to live with these counties. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: will perhaps adjust your what is at some point, but
Speaker 1: um that you're not gonna ever stole down this this animal.
Speaker 1: They're gonna keep coming back, bouncing back. So they didn't
Speaker 1: find the compensatory thing that head out west. But but
Speaker 1: but here's the thing though not the thing, but the
Speaker 1: thing to considered. I think that that reflects that research
Speaker 1: is we we discussed this before. Well, they're doing there's
Speaker 1: there's an area in Colorado where they're they're they're not
Speaker 1: seeing good recruitment on mule deer, and they're worried about
Speaker 1: an isolated mule deer herd in Colorado, And what they're
Speaker 1: trying to do is slow down the predation loss of fawns.
Speaker 1: So in the old days, you might have gone in
Speaker 1: and tried to do a lot of predator removal work,
Speaker 1: just generally throughout the year, try to do predator removal work.
Speaker 1: But what they found is what I think they were
Speaker 1: going to try was instead of doing it that way
Speaker 1: where you're like removing predators in October, say in hopes
Speaker 1: of having a good fawn crop in May, is that
Speaker 1: you would try to do it in a very targeted
Speaker 1: way that was removing the predator load. However, temporarily removing
Speaker 1: the predator load at a precise moment when you want
Speaker 1: it down. Because of that thing you're saying, you do
Speaker 1: all the work in October. Oh yeah, you know, we
Speaker 1: killed four lions out of this basin. We're hoping see
Speaker 1: a bunch of fawn recruitment, but in that time it's
Speaker 1: just been backfilled. So to try to work in and
Speaker 1: go like to come in and do it commensurate, they're not,
Speaker 1: you know, at the same time, in order to try
Speaker 1: to alleviate the predator load. HM. That's interesting, isn't that
Speaker 1: Taking that idea of like, um, you were explaining when
Speaker 1: we were in Alaska about how Caribo we all dropped
Speaker 1: their fonds, uh or their calves. I mean you have
Speaker 1: a short period of time to sort of overload their
Speaker 1: overload the predator swamping, thinking that if you were to
Speaker 1: trickle it out over two months, you're gonna lose them all.
Speaker 1: But they all hit the ground on the same day
Speaker 1: and they're vulnerable for how many ever hours or days afterwards,
Speaker 1: you're gonna have some survival. Yeah, And typically it makes
Speaker 1: sense what you're talking about, because you know, the other
Speaker 1: thing the researchers always show is that basically those fonds
Speaker 1: make it two or three months, they're not the point
Speaker 1: they can run, you know, the different predators and you know,
Speaker 1: have a decent chance to s Having it said, the
Speaker 1: first couple of weeks they were like get hammered by
Speaker 1: you know, it's bears or coyotes, rivers in the area.
Speaker 1: That's a big predator. But you know, and then there's
Speaker 1: areas like in Wisconsin and most of the north eastern
Speaker 1: part of the country where we've had these two animals,
Speaker 1: counties and white tails, living side by side for at
Speaker 1: least in modern areas at least a century now, and
Speaker 1: there does really not have much impact on them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like, I agree with the assessment that there's just
Speaker 1: that you're gonna have to I mean, how does your
Speaker 1: cotes kyle through expanding their range right, more people can
Speaker 1: have to live with them. And what it would take
Speaker 1: two get rid of them is what things that we've
Speaker 1: tried in the past without without great effect, with tremendous
Speaker 1: um unintended consequences, which is that you'd go back into
Speaker 1: playing the poison game, which is devastating to so many
Speaker 1: species that think he's right. But I don't think that.
Speaker 1: I don't think that it would that someone would look
Speaker 1: at all that and think that using predator control, having
Speaker 1: that be part of your tool kit and using research
Speaker 1: to learn how to use it more effectively. I think
Speaker 1: that it's going to remain a good management tool um
Speaker 1: as long as it's stays socially acceptable. And I would
Speaker 1: be like I would, you know, I would be very
Speaker 1: disappointed if we at some point decided that that it
Speaker 1: wasn't something we're gonna use because at times it can
Speaker 1: be very effective in recovering stabilizing populations. And the thing
Speaker 1: that I always find fastening when I, you know, work
Speaker 1: on this kind of stuff is the guys who will
Speaker 1: have a county contest, which can be controversial, and the
Speaker 1: justification will quick jump to, as we are these counties
Speaker 1: so that the deer have a chance to liver on
Speaker 1: this area. And I think that's emails. Just worry about
Speaker 1: how many how many counties being killed on the highway then,
Speaker 1: because you know that's just most nothing. So let's just
Speaker 1: I guess my point. Let's let's argue these things on
Speaker 1: the fact that you're having fun, you're not harming anything.
Speaker 1: Um well well yeah, but but but but the pelts
Speaker 1: too are worthwhile. I don't see why you have to
Speaker 1: apologize for killing a fur bearer and taking the pelt.
Speaker 1: But the thing is, well, yeah, you can go look
Speaker 1: at what they can do with caribou herds by doing
Speaker 1: wolf work in Alaska. It's not like there are times
Speaker 1: when it's total effective. Go read up on the history
Speaker 1: of the forty Yeah. Well, no one's saying that pats
Speaker 1: don't have an impact. I've never tried to make that claim,
Speaker 1: but I guess I'm saying the case in kyote. It's
Speaker 1: hard to say that they're really um, that they are
Speaker 1: causing problems in some areas, but what can you actually, dude,
Speaker 1: have stopped it. You know you're not gonna stop that
Speaker 1: county that eventually they'll probably find a way around that
Speaker 1: one too, you know, So that's all I'm saying. Huh, Doug,
Speaker 1: I noticed that we both said coyote rather than coyote. Well,
Speaker 1: just because you know you want to be here, he
Speaker 1: kept saying coyote. Soas in my head, I I quit hunting.
Speaker 1: I've never hunted him. That was incidental shooting the occasional
Speaker 1: coyote kot um. But and now I'm welcome and was
Speaker 1: a part of the control during landscape. Well yeah, it's
Speaker 1: I means they're just out there trying to make a
Speaker 1: living too. It's really interesting to me out walking around
Speaker 1: in the wintertime when you can follow and watch how
Speaker 1: they sort of hunt. They're real good moochers. They have
Speaker 1: a real their pattern, Like three you know a group
Speaker 1: of them and you watch their trails and it's like
Speaker 1: they're hunting the same way. They're either learning from me
Speaker 1: or I'm learning from them. You haven't figured out which
Speaker 1: one yet. Many many many years years ago we did
Speaker 1: a mooch and uh we moved to kylets past me.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I don't have I don't have like when
Speaker 1: I see one, I don't um when I see one,
Speaker 1: I don't even like doesn't even I don't I have
Speaker 1: no thought in my head about uh taking a poke
Speaker 1: at it. It's not that tasty. No, the last one
Speaker 1: I killed, we ate. It just wasn't worth it to me.
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, I sold some when I was younger,
Speaker 1: and fur prices were better sold with the tax nurvery trade.
Speaker 1: Um before this is before they exploded in numbers. And
Speaker 1: now yeah, when I see one, it's just like not
Speaker 1: even like like there's no part of me that's like,
Speaker 1: oh man, I want to get that thing. Yeah, I'm fast,
Speaker 1: I'm fascinating, very very personally, it just like doesn't click.
Speaker 1: I'll actually watch um segments of shows once while their
Speaker 1: hunting County West or someplace, or I stumbled into a
Speaker 1: hunt recently near Lodi where guys were out in their
Speaker 1: trucks with their hounds and getting ready to do a hunt.
Speaker 1: And if I hadn't been so pressed for time, I
Speaker 1: would have stopped and tagged along because I think it's
Speaker 1: kind of a fascinating process. Oh yeah, that is for sure.
Speaker 1: But it's like the same thing. I don't watch the packers,
Speaker 1: but I don't think that it's bad to watch the packers.
Speaker 1: I just have no desire to watch the packers. I
Speaker 1: think you've made it clear over the years that you
Speaker 1: just have no interest in that. It's not like I'm
Speaker 1: not like making a statement about the morality of packer watching.
Speaker 1: You you got any concluders, m I didn't know what
Speaker 1: was that time? Already? You're ready to be done? Huh?
Speaker 1: Get nothing other topics for me? No, I feel like
Speaker 1: I know, I mean, I feel like I just have
Speaker 1: that feeling like, well, we have this this fella. Uh
Speaker 1: As my concluding thought, I'm gonna Greg w wrote in
Speaker 1: to uh say that, uh, speaking of the meat tree episode,
Speaker 1: that really what really stood out to him was everyone's
Speaker 1: perception of the event in hindsight, and he was surprised
Speaker 1: to hear me say that I felt a little guilty
Speaker 1: and regretful towards the experience, which just just how high
Speaker 1: I would have described my reaction to it. But about
Speaker 1: a bear attack, yeah, the Bear Attack. If you haven't
Speaker 1: listened to it, go listen to episodes eight six and
Speaker 1: eighties seven titled The Meat Tree Part one and two.
Speaker 1: And uh, and Steve, you felt grateful for the newfounded wisdom,
Speaker 1: and Uh, I just want to, you know, follow up
Speaker 1: to him and say that I do feel grateful for
Speaker 1: that wisdom. You know that we obviously, I'm gonna my
Speaker 1: tactics now going into Bear country are much better educated,
Speaker 1: you know, than what we're gonna do when we're out there. Right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But I think that he was saying. What he was
Speaker 1: saying is that you felt like a level of response
Speaker 1: ability and felt that if something bad had happened, it
Speaker 1: would have been in some ways on your shoulders. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well there was that, and I still feel that way.
Speaker 1: But I think he was maybe talking and talking about
Speaker 1: how at the end you and Garret were like glad
Speaker 1: that happened. That was awesome, and I was kind of like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I could maybe do without it, you know. And he
Speaker 1: wants to know if you've changed. Yeah, you want to
Speaker 1: know if I if my feelings had changed about it. Okay,
Speaker 1: so if you could snap a wave a magic wand
Speaker 1: and have it had not happened, would you wave the
Speaker 1: Wand probably not? Now again, there was there is value
Speaker 1: in the experience, right, But at the time I just
Speaker 1: felt like it was it was so intense and it
Speaker 1: could have gone so awry that that was making me
Speaker 1: make the call of like, you know what, I rather
Speaker 1: it had not had happened, you know, thinking that maybe,
Speaker 1: but if if it's all going to play out the
Speaker 1: same way and we all walk out of there and
Speaker 1: get to just talk about it, then sure, why to
Speaker 1: have a good story. Yeah, no, dirt myth had been
Speaker 1: carried off and killed. Yes, And he said would you
Speaker 1: wave the magic Wand of course I'd be like, oh,
Speaker 1: wave wave rolled dirt. But dirt was a couple of
Speaker 1: weeks before when we were up there, he had the
Speaker 1: encounter with that grizzly saw who came down over the
Speaker 1: hill and he was brushing his teeth, And when we
Speaker 1: were sitting around talking about it later, he goes, well,
Speaker 1: I think it'd be kind of cool if I'd get
Speaker 1: a scar from a grizzly bear. Careful what you wish for, dude.
Speaker 1: We're magnets for him man, just lurking around. Um, so
Speaker 1: you would not wave the magic wind? Do you feel
Speaker 1: like our luck is running thinner? I think it got thick.
Speaker 1: Now you think it got thick. I think it was
Speaker 1: getting thin thin, thin, thin, thin, and then that happened
Speaker 1: and now it's gotten thick, thick, thick thick. Like Let's
Speaker 1: say you let's say you were all stud in the
Speaker 1: plane rack right, also the small plane the plane crashes
Speaker 1: that we all walk away. What are I wouldn't think
Speaker 1: that we're going to be in another plane crash? And
Speaker 1: the book Dispatches by Michael Hare, which is his He
Speaker 1: covered the He covered the vi He was a journalists
Speaker 1: that covered the Vietnam War, then came home and wrote
Speaker 1: a book about Vietnam called Dispatches. And he meets a
Speaker 1: kid in the book, he meets a kid from Miles City.
Speaker 1: And every day, or not every day, but whenever he
Speaker 1: gets a list of fatalities, and there in the military publication,
Speaker 1: he's always looking in there hoping to see someone from
Speaker 1: Miles City on the list. And Michael Harris, why do
Speaker 1: you want to see someone from Miles City on the list?
Speaker 1: He goes, because we're the chance of two guys from
Speaker 1: Miles City are gonna get killed in this war. So
Speaker 1: I feel like that, like if you are in a plane,
Speaker 1: if we're in a plane crash, I'd be like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm glad everyone lived because that was our crash. We're
Speaker 1: not gonna have another crash because you feel that way
Speaker 1: that we've had like our like I think, very very
Speaker 1: close in that direction. I feel like things were going
Speaker 1: in that direction and now they went in that direction,
Speaker 1: and now they will walk away. I don't think that
Speaker 1: we're still on the slope. I think that that was
Speaker 1: the valley floor. I don't know why. That's just my feeling.
Speaker 1: I feel like it was. This sounds like something you
Speaker 1: or your old man would say, but I feel like
Speaker 1: that was the valley floor from which we will now
Speaker 1: climb out, partially because our again, our tactics and are
Speaker 1: and the way we go about in that country might change. No,
Speaker 1: it's more, it's not it's not based on logic. It's
Speaker 1: based on just the way because other things, other encounters.
Speaker 1: I feel like it didn't other encounters. I feel like
Speaker 1: there were unspoken words between us and the bear or
Speaker 1: like you know, but this felt like just hitting the
Speaker 1: valley floor, it felt like, Okay, that's where that was headed. Now.
Speaker 1: I expect quietness based on nothing, based on nothing? Well,
Speaker 1: what brought that up? As I was reading that story
Speaker 1: about that the Arctic Explorer, I was telling you about
Speaker 1: Antarctic Antarctic, sorry, and he was saying that every time
Speaker 1: they dropped a foot into a crevasse, which sometimes can
Speaker 1: be you know, a couple of inches of foot wine
Speaker 1: and and that same death, or it can be you know,
Speaker 1: giant multiples of that right too, and it can be
Speaker 1: your death down there. But then every time that you
Speaker 1: punch your foot through, you're just like man, then you know,
Speaker 1: you're just getting closer and closer and closer, and your
Speaker 1: luck is just getting thinner and thinner and thinner and
Speaker 1: thinner and thinner. Yeah. I like that. But let's say
Speaker 1: you fell into one and caught yourself and climbed out,
Speaker 1: would you feel like okay, yeah, Like, now, what are
Speaker 1: the chances of following into a big one again? Pretty high?
Speaker 1: But you're saying it be less, So it just it
Speaker 1: depends on perception. Yeah, I hear you. This can't be measured.
Speaker 1: Aren't you afraid by even voicing this idea that you're
Speaker 1: bottomed out and going back up, that you're tempting fate? No, no,
Speaker 1: only because bears don't listen. They're not listening right now.
Speaker 1: They're they're out in the woods just plotting, but they
Speaker 1: don't know what I'm talking about. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: feel that way. It doesn't make any sense. This is
Speaker 1: how I feel. It's almost irresponsible for me to share
Speaker 1: my thoughts on it. It makes so little sense. It
Speaker 1: just seems like an odds thing. You know that the
Speaker 1: odds are you won the lottery and now you're not
Speaker 1: gonna win it again, or you lost a lottery in
Speaker 1: that case, and now do dudes and yeah, do dudes
Speaker 1: who play the tax on stupidity and win? Are they like?
Speaker 1: Are they like? Are they like? H man, no point
Speaker 1: in buying another one of them tickets. They're going out
Speaker 1: and spending half of their winnings to buy more. All right,
Speaker 1: did I give you? You took one? I'm good. I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm back in good graces here, so I'm gonna,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm just gonna sit quietly for the rest
Speaker 1: of the time. Thanks for joining us.