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Speaker 1: Visit truth finder dot com, slash Nancy, enter your own name.

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Speaker 1: Get started Crime stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius x

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Speaker 1: M Triumph Channel one thirty two. A five year old

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Speaker 1: top boy goes missing after three long months. Really on

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Speaker 1: a whim, a private investigator decides to take the stepmother

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Speaker 1: out for a drive, a long drive. Then, after hours

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Speaker 1: and hours of seemingly driving through the countryside aimlessly, step

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Speaker 1: mommy leads him directly to the spot where the little

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Speaker 1: boy's body is found under a bridge and a washed

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Speaker 1: out culvert. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime Stories. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us. The mystery only intensifying in

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Speaker 1: the last days as that stepmother walks free then shoots herself.

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Speaker 1: But why what does that tell us about the investigation?

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to this. My biggest question is where

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Speaker 1: did she get the gun? We pretty much nailed that

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Speaker 1: down that there was no gun in the ass. I

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Speaker 1: told Jonathan, and I told Jamie stay away. Let's say

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Speaker 1: someone did this to Emiley, or Emily does it to herself,

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Speaker 1: You're going to be the first suspects, so stay away.

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Speaker 1: That is probably investigator David Marshburn, who manages to finangle

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Speaker 1: the stepmother Emily Glass into the car for a long,

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Speaker 1: long drive, during which she divulges the location a little

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Speaker 1: tot Lucas Hernandez's dead body out in the middle of nowhere.

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Speaker 1: How would she know that unless she put the top

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Speaker 1: there herself. He could hardly even tell what he was seeing.

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Speaker 1: I've looked carefully at the photos and I couldn't either.

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Speaker 1: The little boy's dark brown hair had been bleached white

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Speaker 1: in the elements. You could hardly even see his body

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Speaker 1: amidst the sticks and the weeds and the re caught

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Speaker 1: in an erosion pan in that culvert, that little body

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Speaker 1: in with all that debris for three long months. Will

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Speaker 1: we ever know what happened? I find that very very

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Speaker 1: odd to Ashley Willcott, juvenile judge, lawyer, founder of child

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Speaker 1: crime watch dot com. At the private investigator, who I

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Speaker 1: give all the credit to all the credit for getting

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Speaker 1: Emily Glass on secretly recorded audio as he's driving her around,

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Speaker 1: He's taping everything she said. Uh, Ashley, for the same

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Speaker 1: p I to say, you know, I warned them she

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Speaker 1: might kill herself. And I'm not trying to say the

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Speaker 1: p I didn't. Of course he did not. He's in

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Speaker 1: another state now, But to tell them, if you go

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Speaker 1: to this home I'm talking about lucass mom and dad,

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Speaker 1: she may kill herself and you'll be a suspect and

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Speaker 1: low ahold. She is found shot dead and Lucas's father

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Speaker 1: finds her. What a weird set of circumstances and what

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Speaker 1: foreshadowing by the p I. So first of all, it's

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Speaker 1: reported that she allegedly killed herself. The father comes home,

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Speaker 1: I think it is that like one in the morning

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Speaker 1: and finds her. So the first question is where was

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Speaker 1: he as he staying there. We already been Next Nancy,

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Speaker 1: we need to think about the fact that she was

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Speaker 1: absolutely involved in this child's death because she knew where

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Speaker 1: the child was located. But we still do not know

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Speaker 1: what happened to Lucas, and so the law enforcement investigation

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Speaker 1: is crucial to figure out what's really happened. Whoa wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, Wait a minute, wait a minute, hold on?

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Speaker 1: She Lee Egan with me, investigative reporter with crime online

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Speaker 1: dot Com, where we have this story and all other

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Speaker 1: breaking criminal needs and justice to Lee. Who was living

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Speaker 1: in the home? That was a question Joseph's got Morgan

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Speaker 1: was posing earlier. Were they both still living there? I

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Speaker 1: don't think. I think it was Emily alone. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure why or how Jonathan ut to go over there

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Speaker 1: that night, but he did. I'm not I've not heard

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Speaker 1: that heat was there? Her heat last shortly after she

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Speaker 1: was released from jail the second time. Okay, I don't

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Speaker 1: understand a lot of facts here and there. Their critical

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Speaker 1: number one who owned the home? Where did they own it?

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Speaker 1: Did they buy it together? Were they renting it? If

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Speaker 1: they were renting it and it's under his name, why

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Speaker 1: is she going back there, and why is he going

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Speaker 1: over there at one forty A m Um, I don't

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Speaker 1: like it. Let me hear that. Let me hear David

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Speaker 1: Marshburn one more time, Um, Alan please, My biggest question

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Speaker 1: is where did she get the gun? We pretty much

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Speaker 1: nailed that down that there was no gun in the ass.

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Speaker 1: I told Jonathan and I told Jamie stay away. Let's

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Speaker 1: say someone did this to Emily, or Emily does it

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Speaker 1: to herself, You're going to be the first suspect, So

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Speaker 1: stay away. Okay, where did she get the gun? To

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan forensics expert Joe Scott, the home has

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Speaker 1: been searched, the cars who have been searched, the curtilage,

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Speaker 1: which is your yard and your ship and your storage unit,

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Speaker 1: and blah blah. Everything else around your home is your curtilage.

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Speaker 1: Everything had been searched multiple times when they were looking

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Speaker 1: for Lucas. When she was busted on driving high on

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Speaker 1: pot with a kid in the car. By her own account,

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Speaker 1: she was found not guilty on that that home had

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Speaker 1: been searched and searched and searched. Nobody in their right

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Speaker 1: mind would have given her a gun. Was was this

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Speaker 1: a long gun? Joe Scott. Yeah, from what I understand, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: the reports are saying that there was a what they're

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Speaker 1: calling a rifle laying at her feet. Okay, wait wait stop,

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Speaker 1: sorry sorry sorry, A long gun? A long gun? How

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Speaker 1: in the hey we're talking about a rifle or shotgun?

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Speaker 1: How in the hey do you kill yourself off with

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Speaker 1: a rifle? It's it can be kind of difficult, and well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: a lot of it. A lot of it's going to

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Speaker 1: be depended upon how long your arms are. I don't

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Speaker 1: really know how big this woman is, but she has

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Speaker 1: to position herself. She would have to position herself in

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Speaker 1: a position where she could actually actuate the trigger and

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Speaker 1: place the muzzle either in her chest or some other

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Speaker 1: lethal area of her body, and pull the trigger. I

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Speaker 1: worked cases where people have used their thumbs. I've used

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Speaker 1: cases where people have used their toes in order to

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Speaker 1: initiate the trigger on a long weapon. Cat. I'm very

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Speaker 1: twisted around on how physically that happened. I'm having a

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Speaker 1: very difficult time imagining how Emily Glass shot herself with

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Speaker 1: a long gun. Um. Now, I have personally been involved

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Speaker 1: with cases where someone it was a man, because we

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Speaker 1: know statistically women don't usually shoot themselves, especially in the head.

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Speaker 1: It's broken down by race, by gender, by age, by

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Speaker 1: socio economic level, the method and assessment of who suicide.

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Speaker 1: And it's rare that a woman in her and all

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Speaker 1: of her categories that fit her will shoot themselves. Never

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Speaker 1: in the face, but maybe in the chest. But in

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Speaker 1: case I I was involved with Joe Scott, the person

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Speaker 1: the man rigged the shotgun to shoot him. He could

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Speaker 1: do it with his toe. Okay, now that is not

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Speaker 1: apparently what happened here. Now, how in the world does

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Speaker 1: she shoot herself with a rifle? I think that it

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Speaker 1: can be difficult. Sometimes. What you will find is that

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Speaker 1: the butt of the weapon, that is, the area where

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Speaker 1: the weapon actually fits into the shoulder, will be placed

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Speaker 1: between where the wall on the floor joined. The weapon

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Speaker 1: is then leaned into that is the muzzle, and you

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Speaker 1: have to extend your hand generally your right hand depended

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Speaker 1: upon what dominant hand to use, and press the trigger

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Speaker 1: at that point in time. It takes some work to do,

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Speaker 1: but it can be done. I've even seen people actually

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Speaker 1: the trigger with a string before. So there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of stuff to kind of unpack here. It's not typical.

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Speaker 1: I want to know why she had a weapon, why

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Speaker 1: she had access to the weapon, And I think, as

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Speaker 1: an investigator, one of the things I would want to

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Speaker 1: know because it does give one pause. Uh, it has

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Speaker 1: been implied, you know extensively that she has direct knowledge

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Speaker 1: of this kid's death, of Lucas's death. Why in the

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Speaker 1: hell is the dad going to the home where this

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Speaker 1: woman is so closely linked to the death of his son.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to this. At approximate one am on Friday,

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Speaker 1: Glass's boyfriend, thirty four year old Jonathan Hernandez to report

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Speaker 1: arriving home and finding Glass dead. Officers discovered a rifle

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Speaker 1: near her feet and three suicide notes in the residence,

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Speaker 1: again address being sixty five South Edgemore. Glass's body is

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Speaker 1: at the Regional Forensic Science Center and the case number

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Speaker 1: of this ongoing investigation is eight CREE seven. Glass had

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Speaker 1: been questioned in the disappearance and death of five year

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Speaker 1: old Lucas Hernandez, the son of Jonathan. On ma she

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Speaker 1: was booked into the Sedgel County Jail for felony obstruction

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Speaker 1: of justice after leading a private investigator to Lucas's body

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Speaker 1: under a bridge in South Harvey County. Lucas had been

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Speaker 1: missing since February. The homicide investigation into Lucas's death is

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Speaker 1: also ongoing. In the case number regarding his death as

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Speaker 1: a ten C one O six nine. There's so many

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Speaker 1: unanswered questions right now. What happened to the stepmother Emily Glass?

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Speaker 1: You know? Um to Susan Constantine, psychologist, author of the

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Speaker 1: Complete Idiot's Guide to Reading Body Language. You can find

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Speaker 1: her at Susan Constantine dot com and her book Idiot's

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Speaker 1: Guide to Reading Body Languages on Amazon dot com. Which

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Speaker 1: I gotta tell you something, Susan. Your book is awesome

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Speaker 1: and I was with you in person just the other

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Speaker 1: day out at Hallmark's Home and Family show listening to

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Speaker 1: you explain how to determine if someone is lying. You

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Speaker 1: crystallized so much that I think some people know intuitively

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Speaker 1: they know it, but they don't know it. And the

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Speaker 1: way you explained it made so much sense. Um. I

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Speaker 1: was watching the Hallmark movie last night, and you know,

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Speaker 1: there's the part where Helly is trying to determine if

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Speaker 1: somebody's lying, and they were watching the body language and

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Speaker 1: they're listening to the inflection of people who are giving

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Speaker 1: police statements. Now, you have listened very carefully, gone over

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Speaker 1: with a fine tooth comb, Emily Glass and those secretly

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Speaker 1: recorded tapes made by private investigator David Marshburn. I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to reconcile Susan her death by long gun shotgun with

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Speaker 1: what you know? What did you determine? What were your

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Speaker 1: findings after listening to those hours and hours of audio. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's no doubt in my mind, with a high level

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Speaker 1: of certainty, that she did abuse and kill the sun.

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Speaker 1: There's no doubt in my mind. The text that is

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Speaker 1: clearly lays out every single word, as I shared with

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Speaker 1: you on the show and also on ther other show.

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Speaker 1: Every word was put there because the person who's speaking

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Speaker 1: it uh is speaking from subconscious, so every word they

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Speaker 1: say has meaning. Okay, right there, wait a minute, White

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Speaker 1: a minute with me. Is former Kansas social worker Laurie,

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Speaker 1: and we're using that name. Joe's got Morgan asked she

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Speaker 1: willcott Lee Egan. Now you are like a warp speed

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Speaker 1: ahead of us, stays in constantine, and what you're saying,

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Speaker 1: let me just speak for everybody, since they didn't ask

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Speaker 1: me to what do you mean speaking from your subconscious?

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Speaker 1: This is starting to sound like oh, psychobabble, and I

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Speaker 1: know you better than that. You gotta break it down

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Speaker 1: for us, Okay, okay, yes, I I truly can so.

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Speaker 1: In other words, what happens is that when somebody is

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Speaker 1: speaking about an event and you asked them what happened,

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Speaker 1: we're listening for is where that event actually happened in

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Speaker 1: their mind. We're trying to understand from their mind how

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Speaker 1: they pictured that event, and then they actually choose the

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Speaker 1: words they say and how they perceive it. And that's

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Speaker 1: where it's coming from the subconscious. The subconscious is what's

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Speaker 1: already stored in their memory bank, and when you ask

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Speaker 1: a question, they are naturally going to speak what is

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Speaker 1: the most important thing to them in order. And that's

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Speaker 1: just the way the brain works. How was your day

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Speaker 1: to day? And if somebody says it was good, that

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Speaker 1: most people will say, well, this is what happened and

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Speaker 1: this is what caused my day to be that way.

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Speaker 1: So we always know that what first comes out, that

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Speaker 1: first sentence that somebody says, is the most crucial because

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Speaker 1: that gives the reason for the event. Take wait, wait, wait,

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Speaker 1: Jeff Scott, this is a yes. No, did you understand that? Okay? Sorry,

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Speaker 1: say what he's saying, you can't help. But if you're brilliant, Susan, guys,

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Speaker 1: don't hate her because she's brilliant. Wait a minute, I

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Speaker 1: think what she's saying is it. The answer comes out.

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Speaker 1: It may not be exactly what you ask, but what

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Speaker 1: that person is thinking is going to come out no

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Speaker 1: matter what question you ask. And the most important thing

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Speaker 1: can often come at the beginning, because that is what's

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Speaker 1: foremost in their minds. I think, is what she's saying.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what that means about Emily Glass. What did

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Speaker 1: you learn that well? For example, is that the comment

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Speaker 1: that she had made about the abuse that she was

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Speaker 1: saying that let me go back to it. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to pull it up right now. She says the most

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Speaker 1: important statement of all when she says, I did Lucas

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Speaker 1: so wrong? And we talked about that I as a

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Speaker 1: first person pronoun. We know that I is linked to

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Speaker 1: tom ownership and truthfulness. So she takes ownership I and

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Speaker 1: then she uses the word did did as an act

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Speaker 1: and then Lucas is the victim, and then she mentioned

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Speaker 1: so she says, for example, I did Lucas so wrong,

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Speaker 1: so meaning like it's like Nancy might be saying, I

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Speaker 1: haven't seen you in so long. Hello, It's so nice

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Speaker 1: to see how it's been so long. So is is

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Speaker 1: associated with a length of time. And then she uses

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Speaker 1: the word wrong. She chose those words, no one else

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Speaker 1: chose them for her. She put him in she's the

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Speaker 1: one that spoke him, and the word wrong is the abuse.

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Speaker 1: And then she says, I feel so sorry for him,

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Speaker 1: and this is her Her voice does show um and

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Speaker 1: sounds that there's remorse here because she actually starts to

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Speaker 1: cry a little bit, and then um, she says, this

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Speaker 1: is the God's honest truth. So that's also an affirmation,

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Speaker 1: but it's also associated with deception. Honestly, you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, I swear to God, et cetera. But you

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Speaker 1: put those words together in order. I did Lucas so wrong.

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Speaker 1: It's very clearly lays out that she caused you abuse,

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Speaker 1: and it happened over time, it wasn't just the first time.

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Speaker 1: That is the of what we're looking at right now

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Speaker 1: here on crime Stories with an all star lineup. Lori

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Speaker 1: going by that name former Kansas social workers Susan Constantine,

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Speaker 1: renowned psychologist and author regarding body language forensics, expert from

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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, Joseph Scott, Morgan Ashley Wilcott found a

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Speaker 1: child crime watch dot Com investigative reporter with crime online

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Speaker 1: dot Com. Lee Egan, of course, Alan Duke, and Jackie

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Speaker 1: Howard with me. What we're talking about is what happened

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Speaker 1: to Emily Glass? Is the plot thickening? No one is

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Speaker 1: a suspect. Everybody's a suspect. We don't have a cause

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Speaker 1: of death yet, but the circumstances surrounding her shooting death

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Speaker 1: are highly questionable. But listen as we try to determine

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Speaker 1: her state of mind to what Susan Constantine is talking about. Listen,

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Speaker 1: I did did you know about a recent law that

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Speaker 1: could leave your personal data exposed online for anybody to find.

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Speaker 1: Internet has created a dangerous new world. Data breaches exposed

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Speaker 1: private information. There's a new cybersecurity threat every other day,

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Speaker 1: and criminals can sell the identity of you and your

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Speaker 1: family on the dart web. It's time you take the

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Speaker 1: power back by using a new website called truth Finder.

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Speaker 1: Truth Finder allows you to find out exactly what information

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Speaker 1: exists about you online. Have you gotten a speeding ticket

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Speaker 1: received a lean from the I R S forgotten about

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00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:54,520
Speaker 1: an embarrassing social media profile. Truth Finder searchers through millions

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Speaker 1: of public records, puts all that data together and one

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Speaker 1: easy to read report. Members get unlimited searches, so you

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Speaker 1: can also look up those close to you and make

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00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,560
Speaker 1: sure they're not hiding something from their past. You also

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Speaker 1: to know. Visit truth finder dot com slash Nancy, enter

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Speaker 1: your own name get started. The stunning and bizarre turn

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Speaker 1: of events with the step mother of Lucas Hernandez found

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Speaker 1: dead in the home whose home wasn't who lived there?

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Speaker 1: Was its suicide? If so, it's highly impractical that she

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Speaker 1: should could shoot herself with a rifle. I mean, think

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Speaker 1: about the barrel is what Joe's got, Morgan with me

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Speaker 1: forensics expert. The barrel is you know at least two

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Speaker 1: two ft long or longer? Yeah? Yeah, quite fully, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: deepening upon the weapon, and then you have to hold

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Speaker 1: it backwards pointed at yourself, and then I guess pull

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Speaker 1: the trigger with your thumb while holding the butt with

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Speaker 1: your other four fingers. It's gonna be very physically difficult,

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Speaker 1: especially if she was in a suicidal frame of mind

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Speaker 1: to pull that off. What more do we know, Lee

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Speaker 1: Eagan regarding the discovery of her body, Well, we know

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Speaker 1: that someone in the neighborhood said that she heard the

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Speaker 1: gun shot at around midnight. There was also reportings of

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Speaker 1: a drive by shooting at the same time, so police

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Speaker 1: are unclear exactly when the gun shot was heard, but

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Speaker 1: going by when Jonathan discovered her, it would have been

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Speaker 1: around so we're still unclear exactly when it happened. We

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Speaker 1: also just learned that from the Witchtop police officer Charlie

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Speaker 1: Davidson says that there were three three suicide notes found

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Speaker 1: at the house there at six Edge. More interesting, Emily

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Speaker 1: glass found by Jonathan Hernandez as Lucas's father around one

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Speaker 1: forty in the morning. Why did he come over? Why

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Speaker 1: was he there? A lot of questions hanging in the

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Speaker 1: air right now. We are waiting on the autopsy report.

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Speaker 1: Big question right now is the prior abuse on Lucas Hernandez.

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Speaker 1: Who knew what with me? Is Lori and we're going

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Speaker 1: by that name former Kansas social worker Lorie. I don't

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Speaker 1: understand how so many red flags were waived and nothing

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Speaker 1: was done. Now Lucas is dead exactly. I know that

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Speaker 1: in Wichita they have so many cases of abuse and neglect,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes people just look the other way, and I

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Speaker 1: honestly believe that it's probably what happened with Lucas. But

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Speaker 1: it was time after time after time relatives from other

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Speaker 1: states were sounding the alarm. I mean, how could you

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Speaker 1: look the other way? Not you, but how could anybody?

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Speaker 1: I think, because some people don't take their job suriously.

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Speaker 1: Another question, who knew what about the prior abuse on

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Speaker 1: the Lucas. Listen to the father, Jonathan her Nandez. She

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Speaker 1: she said that, you know, she woke up from a

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Speaker 1: nap and I guess called for Lucas, called his name

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Speaker 1: out and didn't hear anything. Back, went and looked in

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Speaker 1: his room and he was not there. So she turned around,

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Speaker 1: and his room is off the kitchen, and so is

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Speaker 1: the back door. So she said that when she looked

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Speaker 1: in his room, didn't see him, turn around and saw

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Speaker 1: that the back door was a jar. Then she had,

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Speaker 1: like I guess, ran out in a panic looking for him.

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Speaker 1: But also went over to the Brice house ask that

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Speaker 1: they had seen him and then called nine one one

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Speaker 1: or asked the neighbors to call the nine won something

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Speaker 1: of that. Oh, we we did not. I I honestly

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Speaker 1: didn't even try to search, only after speaking with the

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Speaker 1: detectives and explained to them I don't think he would

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Speaker 1: have wondered off, So I don't believe that he is

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Speaker 1: wondering around. And also they had told me they haven't.

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Speaker 1: They didn't at the time have any leads as far

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Speaker 1: as the tracking dogs following any sense that had left

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Speaker 1: the residence on foot. You're listening to the sound of

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Speaker 1: me discussing this with Lucas's own father, the bio Dad,

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Speaker 1: who was out of town at the time. Lucas goes

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Speaker 1: missing Jonathan Hernandez, but he was on the scene and

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Speaker 1: actually called nine one to report Emily Glass has been shot.

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Speaker 1: So Susan Constantine, author of The Complete Idiot's Guide to

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Speaker 1: Reading Body Language on Amazon, Susan, what do you make

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Speaker 1: of what you just heard the of the dad? Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: lots of things. Okay, let's start out with the change

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Speaker 1: of what we call pronouns. You hear this pausing and hesitation,

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Speaker 1: and then we hear uh we we I I shows

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Speaker 1: conflict between the two. For example, he more than likely

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Speaker 1: wanted to go out and look, and that's where the

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Speaker 1: we we came in from. But then apparently she doesn't,

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Speaker 1: and that's where the I I comes in from. And

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Speaker 1: then he says that he he didn't even try to

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Speaker 1: start looking, So try is an attempted failure. So all

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Speaker 1: of it when you kind of look at this entire context,

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Speaker 1: you're listening to the pausing, the hesitations that he's going

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Speaker 1: out to go look for Lucas, that he's just not

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Speaker 1: just running around. He's constantly making excuses for Emily. The

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Speaker 1: question is why, because he seems to take a passive

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Speaker 1: role throughout the entire interview. Nancy, this is Ashley. Can

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Speaker 1: I add something about that piece and statistics and what

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Speaker 1: I see as a judge will do that all the time.

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Speaker 1: This is what infuriates me. Partner's boyfriend's girlfriend's husband spouses

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Speaker 1: wives that abused children. The partner in the home knows it,

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Speaker 1: sees it, thees the bruises and doesn't do anything about it. Why,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I can just tell you that that's

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Speaker 1: a problem. Well, here's the thing. Let me defend him

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Speaker 1: regarding some of this. I remember my dad had to

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Speaker 1: be gone all the time with the railroad, okay. And

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Speaker 1: the crazy thing was he never knew a schedule, Ashley Willcott,

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Speaker 1: and he would drive a hundred miles to a job

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Speaker 1: one night, then he drive fifty miles the next night,

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Speaker 1: then drive ten miles the next night. We never knew

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Speaker 1: what night he would be gone, what day he would

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Speaker 1: be gone, when he could get work. Before he got

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Speaker 1: into a regular pattern. He was like that for several years,

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Speaker 1: just doing anything to hold on to a job. Right.

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Speaker 1: So it was hard I'm sure for my mom and

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Speaker 1: the three of us without my dad there. Now, think

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Speaker 1: about this guy, Jonathan her Nandez having to be aways

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Speaker 1: involved in the oil business for weeks on end, away

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00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 1: like on an oil rig. Nothing you can do about it, right,

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00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: your that's your job. Either either you don't work or

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Speaker 1: you have to be away from home. And that, according

404
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: to what we've learned, is when the abuse would occur,

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Speaker 1: not while he was there. Now, the other day we

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00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: had with us two of Emily Glasses friends. They seemed

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Speaker 1: to point the finger at Jonathan Hernandez as the one

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Speaker 1: who was abusing Lucas before his death. But that's not

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Speaker 1: exactly That's not what the police report showed. To my understanding,

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Speaker 1: Lee Egan. If you look back at the DCS reports,

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Speaker 1: I personally don't see how he could not have known

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Speaker 1: exactly now right now I'm talking about doing it. Did.

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Speaker 1: I don't see how he could have been the one

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Speaker 1: beating the boy. I don't see it. Hey, look if

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00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: it's him, to h E double l with him if

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00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: it's him. But I don't see that it's him, because

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00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,719
Speaker 1: he seemed, from what I can see, to be gone

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00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 1: out of town when Lucas is abused and the relatives

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00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: were honing in on Emily Glass, not him. Am I

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Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, tell me. I care more about the

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00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 1: truth and being right. Just tell me, no, you're You're correct.

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00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: What I was saying was, I don't think that he

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00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 1: was completely unaware of it. He There's no way he

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00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 1: could have been, because he was home during times when

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00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 1: police were called to the house and it had to

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00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 1: do with a lot of violence and between apparently both

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00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: of them, according to the reports. So I just don't

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Speaker 1: see how he could just be completely in the dark

429
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: over what she was doing. You know. That's an interesting

430
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: thing to Ashley Wilcott, founder of child Crime watch dot com.

431
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: Ashley having worked as a volunteer at the Battered Women's

432
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: Center for nine years at night while I was prosecuting

433
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 1: felonies during the day. Very often, when you have domestic

434
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: abuse between the mom and the dad, you'll find abuse

435
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: on the children too. Not always, but it happens frequently.

436
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: Why is it just the the the atmosphere of violence. Yeah,

437
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: I think absolutely. And if you have someone who's gonna

438
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 1: abuse as a spouse, they're also as likely to abuse

439
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: a child. I don't think they have the capacity to

440
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: say I'm gonna abuse one and not the other. It

441
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 1: goes all around the house. To our expert, Laurie, former

442
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: Kansas social worker Laurie, I'd like to get your insight

443
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: into the what happened to lucas This is just my

444
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: non professional opinion. I think at the the end, this

445
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: is my thought because of the date that they said

446
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: maybe he might have passed away and lucas Um and

447
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: Emily and Jonathan were together. I think that Emily and

448
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: Emily and Jonathan had gotten to an argument, and I

449
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: think that lucas Um he got hurt, and I think

450
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: that he was killed that weekend, that that Jonathan left

451
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: to go back to Mexico or to Texas to work,

452
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: and I think that is the weekend that he was

453
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: hurt and killed. And that now, I mean, you're saying

454
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: that they were together when he was hurt, but you're

455
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: also saying he was away when Lucas was hurt. And

456
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: let's not put perfume on the pig. He wasn't hurt.

457
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: He was killed. Yeah, he was killed, and then he

458
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: left after that. You're you're saying you think Jonathan the

459
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: dad was home at the time the boy was killed. Yes,

460
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: I do. I don't think that. Why Why would you

461
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: say that, Laurie. I mean, you're closer to it the

462
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: week Because of the timeline and the way that I

463
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: see his demeanor and everything that's happened, I think that

464
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: he's hit a lot and he's lied a lot, and

465
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: I think from the get go with his media interview

466
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: with k wh and his actions and attitude, I think

467
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: he's hit a lot. And I think that now that

468
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: Emily is gone, I think he's going to have to

469
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: come clean. Lorie, What do you mean by that? I'm

470
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: saying that nobody. Nobody knows exactly what Dave. Jonathan went

471
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: back to work from his to his job. So even

472
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: though the neighbor boys said that he's seen Lucas on

473
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: the eleventh or the eleventh or twelve, well, I still

474
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: say in my gut that Jonathan still helped with the

475
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: disposal of Lucas's body. That's that's an interesting take, Lee Egan.

476
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: You have been there, you have investigated. You've been at

477
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: the home, We've been in the neighborhood, you've been at

478
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: the jail, You've been everywhere. Lee, I think at the

479
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: most right now, he turned a blind eye to abuse

480
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: on his child because you know, like, for instance, when

481
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: you're man, you think your your spouse is cheating, but

482
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: you don't know, and you explain things away, like where's

483
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: your husband. He's working late right, Yeah, it's Friday night. Yeah, yeah,

484
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: he's got a deal to close. Hello, he's sacked up

485
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: in a hotel with somebody. Okay. So you don't want

486
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: to know. You choose to believe the person because you

487
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: love the person. You want to think good about the person.

488
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the facts, the evidence. It's the only

489
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: thing that's gonna get us through this Lee. I don't

490
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: think Lorie's theory fits with the facts. I I mean,

491
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: am I wrong? I thought the dad was gone when

492
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 1: Lucas went missing. No, I think you're correct, because there

493
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: is one witness that is credible and seeing Lucas before

494
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: the seventeen. He was a neighbor that was the right

495
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: across the street and his son, his children played with

496
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: Lucas and his two brothers on February eleven. That would

497
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: put Jonathan not there, because Jonathan left to go to

498
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,479
Speaker 1: work on the Now, this person has went on camera,

499
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: he's given several interviews that the story has never changed.

500
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: He saw Lucas, he described him perfectly. So I don't

501
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: believe Jonathan was there when it happened. I mean, I

502
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: could be wrong. That's just now. No, I think you're right.

503
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: Take a listen to this. This is Jonathan her Nandez,

504
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: Lucas's dad talking to me, telling me what went through

505
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: his mind and his heart and his body when he

506
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: learned Lucas was missing. I contacted my boss and I

507
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: gathered up my things and I jumped in the car

508
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: and I drove straight homes eleven hours. We are all

509
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: waiting on the autopsy report on Emily Glass, the so

510
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: called stepmother of top boy Lucas. Her Nandez. Lucas goes

511
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: missing three months past, while Emily seemingly is distraught and

512
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: helping in the search, turns out she leads private investigator

513
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: David Marshall to Lucas's little body under a bridge and

514
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: a washed out culvert joining me. Lee Egan, Ashley Wilcott,

515
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott, Morgan, Susan Constantine, a former Kansas social worker

516
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: going by Lorie for our program today. You know, I

517
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: want to talk about the autopsy, Joe Scott Morgan, What

518
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: the hey is taking so long? And what do you

519
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: make of three suicide notes? Isn't that a tiny bit odd? Yeah?

520
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: It is? I think that. Yeah, let's talk about that first.

521
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: The idea with suicide notes. I think that a lot

522
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: of the general public out there, they believe that that

523
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: most people are gonna leave a suicide note. I worked

524
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: more suicides than I ever did homicides, Nancy, and they

525
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: generally outnumber outpaced about two to one in some locations

526
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: about three to one. The number of homicides that you're

527
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: gonna have. It is a typical. It is atypical to

528
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: find a suicide note. It's kind of like jumping off

529
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: of a ledge. In my opinion, with suicide, many people

530
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: just decide to do it. They don't take the time

531
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,239
Speaker 1: to ruminate and write notes. And the fact that there

532
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: are three at the scene kind of gives me pause.

533
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: I hope that they're going to take a very close

534
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: look at these, uh, particularly with you know, this cloud

535
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,720
Speaker 1: of questions that just surrounds this this uh, this child's death.

536
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: Now back to Lucas's autopsy. UM, I'm you know, be

537
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: honest with you, Nancy, I don't know how much they

538
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: have to work with. We saw the fact that that

539
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: his his I'm just gonna be very blunt. His skull

540
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: is there, all right, We saw the hair. The idea though,

541
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: is that if there is no trauma to his skull,

542
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 1: I don't know how much else you have to work with.

543
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: We're talking about three months here. So as far as

544
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: that the external physical findings like soft tissue, those things

545
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: that we've always seen in cases of homicide, where we have, say,

546
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: for instance, like a strinkulation or even a suffocation, we

547
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: might have a tichy I in the eyes. All those

548
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,399
Speaker 1: sorts of things, they're just not gonna be you there

549
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 1: so that we'll be able to definitively say that this

550
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: is in fact what killed him. Is going to be difficult,

551
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 1: I would think at this point. Now they're starting there

552
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: talking about things like toxicology and all this. I don't

553
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: know how much they're gonna have to work with that either.

554
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: And I don't know how much that's gonna play into, uh,

555
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: into the death of a young child. You know. I

556
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: guess they could say that he had some type of

557
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: drug on board. Just Scott, I appreciate all that I'm

558
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: talking about Emily Glass. Okay, why can't you You know

559
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: what drives me crazy, as you well know, when somebody

560
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: actually calm when I yell at them, Just show me

561
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: a little like, oh okay, I'm sorry something like that,

562
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: you know, Just go with it. Okay, cool, Okay, Just

563
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: got what's taking so long with the autopsy on Emily Glass.

564
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 1: We still don't know is it homicide or suicide. We're

565
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: just all saying suicide because we've been told there were

566
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 1: three suicide notes. What's taking so long, Nancy, is that

567
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,240
Speaker 1: they want to try to determine if she had anything

568
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 1: else going on board. I'm sure that they're probably going

569
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 1: to hold off and wait for toxicology to come back

570
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,760
Speaker 1: on her. As far as physical findings with her body,

571
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,240
Speaker 1: there will be the definitive things that they will find

572
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 1: if this is in fact a self inflicted gunshot wound

573
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: with a long weapon, okay, like like range of fire.

574
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 1: If in fact she did place that muzzle to her

575
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: skin anywhere, there will be a point of contact. You

576
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 1: cannot avoid this with a long gun if you are

577
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: self inflicting. It's not like a pistol. You have to

578
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: anchor that weapon into your chest or into your head,

579
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: so there will be seriing that will be there. There

580
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: may even be internal soot deposit, which means when the

581
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 1: blast comes out along with the projectile, you'll find soot

582
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: inside of the wound. Now, if this was fired at

583
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: a great distance, you're not going to see that with her,

584
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: and that means that they've got further investigation to do,

585
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 1: so they're taking their time. In this particular case, we've

586
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 1: got to look at where on the body the injury occurred.

587
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: If it was a shot to the side of the head,

588
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: that's not going to be suicide with a long gun

589
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 1: because there's practically no way you could physically do that.

590
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 1: Often suicides are in the mouth to the front of

591
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: the chest. Wounds located anywhere else are most likely homicide. Statistically,

592
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: you've got to look at the distance of the gun

593
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: from the body suicide shots or at contact as Joe

594
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: Scott Morgange just said, which is where that's the weapon

595
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: is actually making contact with your skin or near contact range.

596
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: That will cause a burn mark, okay, around the wound.

597
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: It will leave gunpowder residue which can be wiped off.

598
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 1: But who's going to wipe it off if it's a suicide.

599
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,800
Speaker 1: Nobody at contact rain. If the gun is fired above

600
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: a bone such as your skull or your sternum, a

601
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: star like wound results. Anything further away is likely to

602
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: be homicide. Joseph's got Morgan. The star like wound that

603
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: results when you fire above a bone like the sternum,

604
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: which is your chest or the skull. What is that

605
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 1: star like wound? The star like wound we refer to

606
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 1: that also as stellate from stellar. The idea is that

607
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,399
Speaker 1: coming out of the muzzle of that weapon is superheated gas. Nancy,

608
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: and what does gas do? We learned in the eighth

609
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: grade science classes that hot air expands, so when this

610
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: gas injects into the skin, it creates almost a ripping motion,

611
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 1: and so you get this stellate pattern, and they're not

612
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: going to be perfectly star shaped, but that's the closest thing.

613
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 1: If people at home will just think about at Christmas time,

614
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 1: for instance, images that we have like the Star of Bethlehem,

615
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: it looks very very similar to that. It's got these

616
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 1: very sharp, high pitched points on it. So this ripping

617
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: takes place on these flat bones. And you nailed it

618
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 1: because you mentioned stern hum as well. Many people forget that,

619
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 1: and in this particular case, I think that there's a

620
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: high likelihood that she could have placed this weapon in

621
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 1: her chest and contacted somewhere around the sternum. So that's

622
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: something that they would and that is if if it's suicide.

623
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 1: Now another thing. Number of shots fired, that's obvious because

624
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: after one shot, even if the victim isn't dead, she

625
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 1: would be at least unconscious or unable to fire a

626
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 1: second time. Multiple shots, that's going to be a homicide.

627
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. I want to talk about

628
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: the suicide. Note to Lee Egan, investigative reporter with Crime

629
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: online dot Com. Lee what do we know is the

630
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: d A said anything about the suicide notes. Mark Bennett,

631
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 1: he'd say that the notes were read to him. He

632
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: didn't read himself, but they were read to him, and

633
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: his words were. Nothing positive about the Lucas case was

634
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: found in the note. Huh what Susan Constantine? Psychologists? What

635
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: does that mean to you? When Anton, do you remember

636
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: when I was on the show on the Hallmark channel,

637
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: what was the number of the lying number? Three? So

638
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 1: three three is the number one line number. There's three notes,

639
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: So the question is why is there three notes? What's

640
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: in it? So there is some research that backs up

641
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: that when people are being deceptive, they do things in threes,

642
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: three o'clock, three thirty three times three notes. That's just

643
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: all I'm saying. Interesting to Lee Egan Crime online dot Com,

644
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: you said the d A announced there was nothing dis

645
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: positive in the suicide notes as to Lucas's death and disappearance.

646
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,240
Speaker 1: You mean there's nothing that proves anything, that settles, anything

647
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: that disposes of the issue. Correct. Correct. Let's talk about

648
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: whether it's going to be suicide or homicide. As if

649
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,040
Speaker 1: this is not suicide, we got a whole another in

650
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: a worms here. We gotta look at the angle of

651
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: the shot. Most suicide shots are angles slightly upward to

652
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, no stranger to a dead body,

653
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, why are they typically angled, if angled at all,

654
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: angled upward? Well, in this particular case, Nancy, if it's

655
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 1: if it is a long gun, which they're talking about,

656
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: she would literally people have to envision her kind of

657
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 1: hovering over this weapon, above it, with the butt of

658
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: the weapon probably braced on the ground, her leaning into

659
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: the weapon. So that explains why you're gonna have an

660
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: upward angle or upward trajectory with this particular shot. Joe

661
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan is seemingly going with the theory of the chest,

662
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 1: and the reason is because if you're using a rifle

663
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: along gun, it's gonna be easier to shoot yourself in

664
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: the chest than in they had presence of gunpowder residue

665
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 1: on victim's hand, and you shoot yourself, there's going to

666
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: be powder residue from unburned carbon on the particular hand

667
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: that pulled the trigger. Now, this is interesting, Joseph Scott Morgan.

668
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 1: Shooting through clothing. A suicide victim rarely shoots through clothing

669
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: isn't that odd. Very often statistically, if you shoot yourself

670
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: in the chest, which is actually usual, people victims open

671
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 1: their shirt to expose skin. Don't know that. I don't

672
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: know why that is. So a shot through clothing in

673
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: the chest could indicate homicide. I don't know if I

674
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 1: completely buy that, but yeah, I guess that that's that's

675
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 1: quite possible. The exposure of the skin just to make

676
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 1: sure that we're doing what we have to do. Remember,

677
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: most people that do this are not familiar with with

678
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,439
Speaker 1: you know, you know, how to take their life. So

679
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: I think kind of subconsciously the skin is exposed to

680
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: pick out that particular area. I guess that that is

681
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 1: a possibility. Yes, well, what about this, if there's any

682
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: evidence of a struggle, if there are scratches, bruises, cuts

683
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 1: on her body, that's one of the things that that

684
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: you would look for on the backs, the hands, to

685
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 1: see if there are any kind of bruising, this sort

686
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 1: of thing, any kind of scratches. And also also the

687
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: other thing we have to think of Nancy is if

688
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 1: if there was a struggle, did she fight back against

689
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 1: anyone else? So at autopsy, one of the things and

690
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 1: I hope that they did this with her, particularly in

691
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 1: this case. We do something called nail scrapings, where we

692
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,919
Speaker 1: actually clip the nails after we have taken a little

693
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: wooden spoon and pride out any kind of debris that

694
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: might be under the nails. And one of the things

695
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 1: that we're gonna look for here is going to be

696
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: things like skin cells and blood that do not belong

697
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 1: to the victims. So yeah, there's any number of things

698
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 1: will look for that might be indicative of a struggle.

699
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: Now remember I'm not saying a woman would undress for suicide.

700
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: Jackie's waving a note at me. She's right. Very rarely

701
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 1: are women found naked. I mean it just and I

702
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 1: learned that firsthand Ashley Willcote in a in the on

703
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: the Forest Lake was a lake forest area of Atlanta,

704
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: when a woman was found naked in bed with gunshot

705
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,240
Speaker 1: woundto the head. I I didn't know enough then, Ashley

706
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: to know statistically how wrong that scenario was. There's just

707
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: something instinctive, ash where women don't shoot them selves naked.

708
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,959
Speaker 1: That's right, And trust your gut, because statistically that is very,

709
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 1: very true. They don't. The other piece of evidence that

710
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 1: I hope they'll really look at in this particular case,

711
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 1: our cell phone records, not only of Emily but also Jonathan.

712
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,720
Speaker 1: Do you remember Nancy the case where the teenage girl

713
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,399
Speaker 1: was talking to her boyfriend who was saying, I'm gonna

714
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 1: kill myself, and she goaded him on and she was

715
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: tried for the crime and said, go ahead kill yourself,

716
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,240
Speaker 1: go ahead, do it. You remember. So I'm not saying

717
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 1: that happened here, but I think it's really crucial for

718
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 1: law enforcement to look at was Emily on the phone?

719
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: Was she texting someone? As so who was she talking to?

720
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: Was Jonathan talking to her or texting her? And that's

721
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: how he knew to go to the house to see

722
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: if she killed herself. I just think cell phone records

723
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 1: could give some really crucial information as to what there

724
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: this was a suicide or they're gonna be looking I mean,

725
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: let's put it out there. They're gonna be looking at

726
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 1: Jonathan her Nandez because he's the one that found the body.

727
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 1: Whenever you find a body, people look at you. And

728
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 1: when I spoke to him, he seemed very calm and

729
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: in control of his faculties. But they're gonna be looking

730
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 1: at him and he is not a suspect. He's not

731
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: a person of interest because he found the body and

732
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: he called nine one one. They're gonna be looking at

733
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 1: his cell phone records and pinging him to see was

734
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 1: he there in the hour ahead of time. Yeah, of

735
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 1: course they are. That does not make him a suspect

736
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 1: or a person of interest. That makes them doing the

737
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 1: right thing and investigating everything. Now here's a big mistake,

738
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 1: Joe Scott. I'm leaning on you heavily to assume a

739
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: case of suicide based on an initial report. When police

740
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 1: get to the scene, they find three what they think

741
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: are suicide notes that are not quote des positive on

742
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: what happened to Lucas. You can't assume anything. You can't

743
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: just assume this is a suicide. It's a big mistake,

744
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: Jo Scott. Yes, it is because the principle that we

745
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: work from what I teach my students at Jacksonville State

746
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 1: University and at the Police Academy, is this one fact.

747
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: Our working assumption is that every case, and I mean

748
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: every case, even if it's a nine year old grandma

749
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 1: that appears that she's passed away in her sleep, every

750
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 1: case is in fact a homicide until proven otherwise. And

751
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 1: when you have a case like this that's got so

752
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 1: many unanswered questions swirling around, I am going to look

753
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 1: harder and harder at any peripheral case that happens to

754
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 1: come up in this scenario, this being one of them,

755
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: because this is a key. This lady is integral and

756
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: everything that's happening in this and I want answers, and

757
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: you know, and at this point, I think the real

758
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 1: tragedy here is the fact that she may have taken

759
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 1: what she knew to the grave. You know, you have

760
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: to determine what's a better indicator of the truth words

761
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 1: or actions? What did she say in that so called

762
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,240
Speaker 1: suicide note or three of them? How had she behaved before?

763
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 1: We don't know of any previous suicide attempts. You have

764
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: to look at case history when there's been violence in

765
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 1: the home, maybe conducted by her. You have to determine

766
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,240
Speaker 1: was this a suicide or was this another act of violence?

767
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 1: Once you hear the word suicide, very often cops have

768
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 1: that mindset as they are investigating. Three basic investigative considerations

769
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: the presence of a weapon or means of death on

770
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: the scene. Injuries are wounds that look self inflicted the

771
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: existence of motive or intent on the part of the

772
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 1: victim to take their own life. Listen to what Emily

773
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,879
Speaker 1: glasses friends say. Two of her best friends, when I

774
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: asked them, would she commit suicide? Do you believe she

775
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 1: shot herself? I've got and I showed the police. They

776
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 1: took my phone to night. Jonathan Hernandez actually said last

777
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 1: Winester Thursday night, if he's seen Emily, he didn't know

778
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:17,280
Speaker 1: that he could keep himself from killing her because she asked, Jonathan,

779
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 1: will you meet up with me? No tape recorders, no cameras,

780
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: no videos, no metha, no phones. I want to talk

781
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 1: to you about everything that happened at night, And Jonathan

782
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 1: told do a friend, I cannot meet up with her

783
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 1: because if I do, I'm not sure I won't kill her.

784
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 1: Are you suggesting that the father of Lucas Hernandez shot

785
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: Emily Glass, the stepmother. I am let me just stay

786
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:46,400
Speaker 1: here that while Jonathan Hernandez, the father, was in the

787
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 1: home where Emily is shot and did call nine one one,

788
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 1: to my understanding, there is no evidence at all that

789
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 1: he shot Emily Glass. They are saying she would never

790
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 1: have committed suicide. They seemly are trying to implicate or

791
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 1: not trying to. They seemingly are implicating Jonathan Hernandez and

792
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 1: her death. They also claim it was all part of

793
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 1: a Wicken plot, which is witchcraft. Okay, so you gotta

794
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,760
Speaker 1: take that whole thing with a box of salt. Okay,

795
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 1: not a pinch, a box of salt, because I do

796
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,720
Speaker 1: not think Wick and Witchcraft had anything to do with this. Now,

797
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 1: Jonathan Hernandez, let me state again, is not a person

798
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 1: of interest in Emily or Lucas's death, nor is he

799
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 1: a suspect in either of them. All Right, the investigation

800
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: goes on so much, writing on the autopsy results of

801
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: Emily Glass as well as top boy Lucas Hernandez. At

802
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: this time, no one is a suspect or a person

803
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: of interest. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off, goodbye friend.

804
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,320
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805
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806
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807
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808
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810
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