1 00:00:09,664 --> 00:00:13,104 Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is now something you can watch. Just go 2 00:00:13,144 --> 00:00:16,823 Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Mission Implausible podcasts, or click on 3 00:00:16,864 --> 00:00:20,864 Speaker 1: the link to our channel. In our show notes, I'm 4 00:00:20,904 --> 00:00:22,064 Speaker 1: John Cipher. 5 00:00:21,664 --> 00:00:22,784 Speaker 2: And I'm Jerry O'Shea. 6 00:00:23,264 --> 00:00:26,544 Speaker 3: We have over sixty years of experience as clandestine officers 7 00:00:26,624 --> 00:00:29,544 Speaker 3: in the CIA, serving in high risk areas all around 8 00:00:29,544 --> 00:00:30,264 Speaker 3: the world, and. 9 00:00:30,304 --> 00:00:34,504 Speaker 2: Part of our job was creating conspiracies to deceive our adversaries. 10 00:00:34,784 --> 00:00:37,504 Speaker 3: Now we're going to use that experience to investigate the 11 00:00:37,504 --> 00:00:40,504 Speaker 3: conspiracy theories everyone's talking about, as well as some you 12 00:00:40,584 --> 00:00:41,224 Speaker 3: may not have heard. 13 00:00:41,304 --> 00:00:43,584 Speaker 2: Could they be true or are we being manipulated? 14 00:00:43,664 --> 00:00:49,703 Speaker 3: We'll find out now on Mission Implausible. Today's guest is 15 00:00:49,744 --> 00:00:53,703 Speaker 3: Garrett Grat. Garrett is an award winning historian, best selling author, 16 00:00:53,744 --> 00:00:56,344 Speaker 3: and journalist, and like our colleague Edam, he's a Vermonter. 17 00:00:56,544 --> 00:00:59,864 Speaker 3: He's written excellent all histories of the Atomic Bomb, UFOs 18 00:00:59,984 --> 00:01:02,103 Speaker 3: and nine to eleven, and books on Watergate in the 19 00:01:02,104 --> 00:01:03,944 Speaker 3: Cold War, which would give us a lot to dig 20 00:01:03,984 --> 00:01:06,064 Speaker 3: into today. So thanks for joining us today. 21 00:01:06,064 --> 00:01:06,984 Speaker 2: Garrett, my pleasure. 22 00:01:07,064 --> 00:01:07,704 Speaker 4: Thanks for having me. 23 00:01:07,784 --> 00:01:10,184 Speaker 3: You know you've written about some of America's most secretive 24 00:01:10,184 --> 00:01:13,824 Speaker 3: and mythic subjects, from Watergate to UFOs to the atomic bomb. 25 00:01:14,104 --> 00:01:15,184 Speaker 2: So what's your fate? 26 00:01:15,544 --> 00:01:18,264 Speaker 3: Yeah, why do you think conspiracy Why do you think 27 00:01:18,304 --> 00:01:21,423 Speaker 3: conspiracy theories take such deep route in American psyche? 28 00:01:21,584 --> 00:01:26,984 Speaker 4: Well, you know, America has always had a uniquely conspiratorial bent. 29 00:01:27,344 --> 00:01:32,303 Speaker 4: This is the going back to Richard Hofstedler's paranoid style 30 00:01:32,344 --> 00:01:37,063 Speaker 4: of American politics. But to me, where it really takes 31 00:01:37,143 --> 00:01:42,584 Speaker 4: off is after Watergate in the nineteen seventies, and that 32 00:01:42,703 --> 00:01:46,264 Speaker 4: you see this period that we shorthand as Watergate, And 33 00:01:46,503 --> 00:01:48,584 Speaker 4: as you said, I wrote a book about it, and 34 00:01:48,624 --> 00:01:51,624 Speaker 4: I think it is less accurately thought of as an 35 00:01:51,664 --> 00:01:57,264 Speaker 4: event and more as a mindset umbrella for about a 36 00:01:57,424 --> 00:02:03,584 Speaker 4: dozen inter related but overlapping scandals that unfold across the 37 00:02:03,664 --> 00:02:09,984 Speaker 4: Nixon presidency. And so when we talk about the loss 38 00:02:10,144 --> 00:02:14,624 Speaker 4: of trust and faith in institutions, you know, what we're 39 00:02:14,664 --> 00:02:16,944 Speaker 4: really talking about, I think, is a series of events 40 00:02:17,024 --> 00:02:22,144 Speaker 4: that includes the Pentagon papers, the war in Vietnam, the 41 00:02:22,184 --> 00:02:26,104 Speaker 4: Watergate and the investigation itself, and then what spawns out 42 00:02:26,144 --> 00:02:31,384 Speaker 4: of Watergate with the Church and Pike committees thereafter. And 43 00:02:32,024 --> 00:02:35,784 Speaker 4: to me, what is in the wake of that is 44 00:02:35,824 --> 00:02:40,104 Speaker 4: when conspiracism really begins to move from the fringe of 45 00:02:40,144 --> 00:02:45,024 Speaker 4: American politics to the mainstream, and that you see this 46 00:02:45,624 --> 00:02:52,344 Speaker 4: in actually the rise of UFO conspiracies in the nineteen eighties. 47 00:02:52,504 --> 00:02:56,464 Speaker 4: You see it in you know, the sort of idea 48 00:02:56,544 --> 00:03:00,224 Speaker 4: of the Bermuda Triangle becomes a best selling book in 49 00:03:00,304 --> 00:03:06,184 Speaker 4: the nineteen seventies, the Philadelphia Experiment and teleportation becomes a 50 00:03:06,664 --> 00:03:10,504 Speaker 4: best selling idea in the seventies and eighties. And then, 51 00:03:11,224 --> 00:03:15,744 Speaker 4: as you mentioned, I wrote another book about UFOs, which 52 00:03:15,784 --> 00:03:19,144 Speaker 4: in a weird way turns out to be a all 53 00:03:19,224 --> 00:03:24,104 Speaker 4: too appropriate sequel for a book on Watergate, because the 54 00:03:24,224 --> 00:03:29,224 Speaker 4: rise of UFO conspiracism is really what happens when Americans 55 00:03:29,264 --> 00:03:33,264 Speaker 4: begin to lose trust and faith in government. And you 56 00:03:33,384 --> 00:03:39,464 Speaker 4: see in that nineteen eighties period the beginning of in 57 00:03:39,544 --> 00:03:44,984 Speaker 4: the UFO world what we now would recognize and call 58 00:03:45,104 --> 00:03:48,064 Speaker 4: the deep state. But that was sort of the first 59 00:03:48,264 --> 00:03:54,024 Speaker 4: hints in conspiracy Land in the nineteen eighties of you know, 60 00:03:54,104 --> 00:04:01,904 Speaker 4: this shadowy cabal of professional military and intelligence people working 61 00:04:01,984 --> 00:04:06,184 Speaker 4: at cross purposes to the American public and the elected officials. 62 00:04:06,584 --> 00:04:09,624 Speaker 4: And you see that really begin to take off in 63 00:04:09,624 --> 00:04:15,144 Speaker 4: in the late nineteen eighties, actually rooted in UFO land. 64 00:04:15,424 --> 00:04:18,624 Speaker 4: As you guys probably know because this was unfolding a 65 00:04:18,624 --> 00:04:21,863 Speaker 4: little bit during your respective careers. You have guys like 66 00:04:21,944 --> 00:04:27,064 Speaker 4: Bill Cooper, who are the big UFO whistleblowers quote unquote 67 00:04:27,063 --> 00:04:30,903 Speaker 4: whistleblowers of the nineteen eighties. Bill Cooper goes on to 68 00:04:31,024 --> 00:04:36,343 Speaker 4: become one of the real founding voices of right wing 69 00:04:36,464 --> 00:04:40,184 Speaker 4: talk radio in the nineteen nineties. 70 00:04:40,464 --> 00:04:42,344 Speaker 2: Yeah, he gave Alex Jones his stars. 71 00:04:42,303 --> 00:04:47,063 Speaker 4: Exactly, and so he has two hugely important people that 72 00:04:47,183 --> 00:04:52,823 Speaker 4: he influences. One is a guy named Tim McVay who 73 00:04:53,584 --> 00:04:58,784 Speaker 4: in the spring of nineteen ninety five, he and his 74 00:04:58,823 --> 00:05:03,623 Speaker 4: buddy Terry Nichols drive out to Bill Cooper's house in 75 00:05:04,303 --> 00:05:08,344 Speaker 4: Arizona and end up talking with him in his driveway 76 00:05:08,503 --> 00:05:12,383 Speaker 4: in Arizona, and Bill Cooper's like, who are these weirdos 77 00:05:12,424 --> 00:05:16,583 Speaker 4: in my driveway and sends them on their way, and 78 00:05:17,144 --> 00:05:20,824 Speaker 4: Tim McVay says, as they are pulling out of the driveway, 79 00:05:21,383 --> 00:05:25,424 Speaker 4: watch Oklahoma City. And Bill Cooper goes back into his 80 00:05:25,503 --> 00:05:28,823 Speaker 4: house and has no idea what any of this means, 81 00:05:28,904 --> 00:05:31,784 Speaker 4: and YadA, YadA, YadA. A few weeks later, a few 82 00:05:31,823 --> 00:05:34,823 Speaker 4: months later, Tim McVay and Terry Nichols blow up the 83 00:05:34,823 --> 00:05:38,344 Speaker 4: Alfred Pimura a federal building in Oklahoma City. And then 84 00:05:38,704 --> 00:05:42,463 Speaker 4: the other person that Bill Cooper really inspires is a 85 00:05:42,863 --> 00:05:48,263 Speaker 4: young Austin, Texas public radio or public access host named 86 00:05:48,303 --> 00:05:53,303 Speaker 4: Alex Jones. And Bill Cooper and Alex Jones have this 87 00:05:53,503 --> 00:06:00,183 Speaker 4: sort of very rough mentor mentee relationship that fractures on 88 00:06:00,344 --> 00:06:08,583 Speaker 4: September eleventh, when Alex Jones begins to embrace what we 89 00:06:08,623 --> 00:06:12,784 Speaker 4: would now call ine eleven Trutherism and sets off on 90 00:06:12,823 --> 00:06:17,664 Speaker 4: this old, this new path for him that leads, in 91 00:06:17,704 --> 00:06:20,503 Speaker 4: many ways, I think, straight from nine to eleven Trutherism 92 00:06:20,584 --> 00:06:24,584 Speaker 4: to Sandy Hook crisis actors up to January sixth. And 93 00:06:24,704 --> 00:06:28,583 Speaker 4: one of the things that I came away from my 94 00:06:29,503 --> 00:06:34,464 Speaker 4: books on Watergate and UFO really thinking a lot about 95 00:06:35,024 --> 00:06:37,904 Speaker 4: is the extent to which there is this almost straight 96 00:06:37,984 --> 00:06:43,344 Speaker 4: line from Watergate to UFOs to January sixth. That is 97 00:06:43,623 --> 00:06:46,863 Speaker 4: not to say that sort of everyone who believes in 98 00:06:46,984 --> 00:06:52,664 Speaker 4: UFOs is a January sixth anti government terrorist, but that 99 00:06:52,863 --> 00:06:59,183 Speaker 4: sort of the intellectual framework and foundation really does scaffold 100 00:06:59,383 --> 00:07:02,584 Speaker 4: across this entire fifty year history of American politics. 101 00:07:02,664 --> 00:07:05,063 Speaker 2: So when I was in high school back I was like, 102 00:07:05,344 --> 00:07:07,183 Speaker 2: I hadn't fought the Civil War yet. Is it. But 103 00:07:07,264 --> 00:07:10,464 Speaker 2: there was if you remember, there was Chariots of the gods, right, 104 00:07:10,704 --> 00:07:13,463 Speaker 2: Eric con done, and there was the UFOs had built 105 00:07:13,504 --> 00:07:16,864 Speaker 2: the pyramids, the Miyans, you know, all religion was based 106 00:07:16,904 --> 00:07:19,703 Speaker 2: off of the UFOs. Everybody in high school reant it, 107 00:07:19,744 --> 00:07:21,944 Speaker 2: all the teachers. It was very influential. But it was 108 00:07:21,944 --> 00:07:26,504 Speaker 2: also goofy. Right, you could still read this and get 109 00:07:26,544 --> 00:07:29,544 Speaker 2: along with the US government or your religion or whatever 110 00:07:29,704 --> 00:07:33,904 Speaker 2: it is. And yet somewhere along the line this got insidious. 111 00:07:33,904 --> 00:07:36,624 Speaker 2: So one of the big grand daddy of conspiracy theories 112 00:07:36,664 --> 00:07:39,864 Speaker 2: is the JFKSS section just as compelling to include some 113 00:07:39,904 --> 00:07:43,143 Speaker 2: people former agency officers who like fall down these rabbit 114 00:07:43,144 --> 00:07:46,424 Speaker 2: holes that I have to admit I don't quite grasp JFK. 115 00:07:46,944 --> 00:07:50,464 Speaker 2: When did it start becoming like this incredible conspiracy theory. 116 00:07:50,624 --> 00:07:53,104 Speaker 2: Like when I was young, I don't remember it as 117 00:07:53,144 --> 00:07:56,304 Speaker 2: a conspiracy theory, and I actually I was four years old. 118 00:07:56,304 --> 00:08:00,264 Speaker 2: I actually remember vaguely JFK getting shot at least people 119 00:08:00,344 --> 00:08:03,784 Speaker 2: the reactions around it. But it wasn't until maybe the 120 00:08:03,904 --> 00:08:07,424 Speaker 2: nineties that it started being like people were taking serious. 121 00:08:07,464 --> 00:08:10,104 Speaker 2: It's like the government and they're hiding it. Some of 122 00:08:10,184 --> 00:08:13,784 Speaker 2: the crazier conspiracies come around it. So where did things 123 00:08:13,824 --> 00:08:14,463 Speaker 2: get ugly? 124 00:08:15,024 --> 00:08:19,584 Speaker 4: And I think that the difference is Americans and people 125 00:08:19,664 --> 00:08:23,544 Speaker 4: all over the world have long believed in aliens and 126 00:08:23,984 --> 00:08:27,664 Speaker 4: alien abductions and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. What 127 00:08:27,904 --> 00:08:30,864 Speaker 4: changes in the eighties is the idea that the government 128 00:08:30,944 --> 00:08:34,703 Speaker 4: is lying to you, that the government knows about these 129 00:08:34,744 --> 00:08:37,504 Speaker 4: aliens and they're not telling them about it, They're not 130 00:08:37,544 --> 00:08:39,984 Speaker 4: telling you about it. That's the sort of twist in 131 00:08:40,544 --> 00:08:44,463 Speaker 4: the belief system is you know, there are flying saucer 132 00:08:44,624 --> 00:08:49,344 Speaker 4: sightings throughout history, but and back to the late nineteen 133 00:08:49,384 --> 00:08:52,863 Speaker 4: forties and fifties and sixties, and what changes is really 134 00:08:52,904 --> 00:08:57,263 Speaker 4: the sort of increasingly widespread belief that the government is 135 00:08:57,424 --> 00:09:01,744 Speaker 4: covering up the truth. And you see that really take 136 00:09:01,784 --> 00:09:04,344 Speaker 4: off in the nineties with the X Files. One of 137 00:09:04,343 --> 00:09:06,184 Speaker 4: the things a lot of people don't understand is the 138 00:09:06,304 --> 00:09:10,424 Speaker 4: Roswell story really only takes off in the nineteen eighties 139 00:09:10,583 --> 00:09:14,664 Speaker 4: for almost forty years, like, no one cares about the 140 00:09:14,784 --> 00:09:19,424 Speaker 4: Roswell incident at all. And then what turbocharges it is 141 00:09:19,504 --> 00:09:21,463 Speaker 4: the Will Smith movie Independence Day. 142 00:09:21,824 --> 00:09:28,463 Speaker 2: We're fighting for our right to live to exist. Then 143 00:09:28,504 --> 00:09:29,904 Speaker 2: should we win the day. 144 00:09:31,424 --> 00:09:34,103 Speaker 5: The fourth of July will no longer be known as 145 00:09:34,144 --> 00:09:38,584 Speaker 5: an American holiday, but as the day when the world 146 00:09:38,624 --> 00:09:41,944 Speaker 5: declared in one voice, we will not go quietly into 147 00:09:42,024 --> 00:09:47,664 Speaker 5: the night. We will not vanish without a fight. We're 148 00:09:47,703 --> 00:09:53,944 Speaker 5: going to live on. We're going to survive. Today we 149 00:09:54,064 --> 00:09:57,104 Speaker 5: celebrate our Independence. 150 00:09:56,384 --> 00:10:04,103 Speaker 4: Day because you know, remember that's the whole twist in 151 00:10:04,103 --> 00:10:07,824 Speaker 4: Independence Day. Spoiler alert for anyone who has not watched 152 00:10:08,304 --> 00:10:08,623 Speaker 4: one of. 153 00:10:08,544 --> 00:10:10,223 Speaker 2: The nineteen nineties great. 154 00:10:09,784 --> 00:10:15,944 Speaker 4: Movies, But you have in that movie the representation of 155 00:10:16,184 --> 00:10:21,144 Speaker 4: the deep state. You have the conspiratorial White House aids 156 00:10:21,384 --> 00:10:24,944 Speaker 4: and Pentagon leaders who are like, mister President, time for 157 00:10:25,064 --> 00:10:28,184 Speaker 4: us to tell you the truth. And underneath area fifty 158 00:10:28,223 --> 00:10:33,743 Speaker 4: one we actually have all the alien bodies and alien spacecraft. 159 00:10:34,184 --> 00:10:38,344 Speaker 4: And it's really just begins to develop this very dark 160 00:10:38,504 --> 00:10:42,663 Speaker 4: edge where it's not just that there are these like wonderful, 161 00:10:42,744 --> 00:10:46,904 Speaker 4: benevolent alien beings out there, it's that these are government 162 00:10:46,944 --> 00:10:50,424 Speaker 4: leaders who are in league with aliens. They're hiding the 163 00:10:50,504 --> 00:10:54,064 Speaker 4: truth from even the President, and some of these theories 164 00:10:54,103 --> 00:10:57,784 Speaker 4: get really dark. The nineteen late seventies and eighties are 165 00:10:58,144 --> 00:11:01,984 Speaker 4: the age of cattle mutilations as well, and this idea 166 00:11:02,184 --> 00:11:07,624 Speaker 4: that the US government has peace treaties with certain alien species, 167 00:11:07,984 --> 00:11:12,424 Speaker 4: and in exchange for that, x number of humans get 168 00:11:12,463 --> 00:11:17,384 Speaker 4: to be abducted and probed and experimented on by aliens 169 00:11:17,864 --> 00:11:21,064 Speaker 4: per year kind of thing. I mean, it's you. 170 00:11:21,024 --> 00:11:23,743 Speaker 2: Can come from another planet, right, and they come here. 171 00:11:23,784 --> 00:11:26,184 Speaker 2: Why would they need a treaty with us to like 172 00:11:26,264 --> 00:11:29,103 Speaker 2: stick an anal probe right to figure out what I mean? 173 00:11:29,304 --> 00:11:32,223 Speaker 2: It seems to me they could just you know, are 174 00:11:32,223 --> 00:11:35,744 Speaker 2: people are people so credulous that they not asking basic 175 00:11:35,824 --> 00:11:38,024 Speaker 2: questions they don't want to know the answers? 176 00:11:38,223 --> 00:11:40,784 Speaker 4: Or I think it's a little bit of everything, right. 177 00:11:40,984 --> 00:11:42,904 Speaker 4: And if at some point in this you want to 178 00:11:42,944 --> 00:11:46,424 Speaker 4: transition to talking about what the actual reality of aliens 179 00:11:46,504 --> 00:11:48,463 Speaker 4: visiting Earth would be, I'm happy to switch and talk 180 00:11:48,463 --> 00:11:51,664 Speaker 4: about that. But where a lot of this emerges is 181 00:11:51,824 --> 00:11:56,824 Speaker 4: with these UFO whistleblowers, these people who are purporting to 182 00:11:56,904 --> 00:12:00,184 Speaker 4: be the I was a member of the deep state, 183 00:12:00,463 --> 00:12:04,544 Speaker 4: I was working in naval intelligence. I read the files, 184 00:12:05,144 --> 00:12:08,144 Speaker 4: and now I'm blowing the whistle. And I think, by 185 00:12:08,144 --> 00:12:10,584 Speaker 4: the way, some of that is still what we are 186 00:12:11,024 --> 00:12:14,664 Speaker 4: seeing and experiencing right now where we're living through this 187 00:12:14,784 --> 00:12:19,864 Speaker 4: age where you're seeing Congress holding its first hearings on 188 00:12:20,184 --> 00:12:25,744 Speaker 4: UFOs in decades, actually literally the first ones since Gerald 189 00:12:25,904 --> 00:12:30,024 Speaker 4: Ford was a congressman from Michigan and led the sort 190 00:12:30,024 --> 00:12:34,784 Speaker 4: of last round of congressional hearings on UFOs before he 191 00:12:34,864 --> 00:12:38,744 Speaker 4: became vice president. But what you're seeing is that the 192 00:12:38,824 --> 00:12:45,144 Speaker 4: people who are interested in UFOs in Congress are the 193 00:12:45,223 --> 00:12:51,944 Speaker 4: Tim Burchetts and the Anna Paulina Luna folks, for whom 194 00:12:52,223 --> 00:12:58,744 Speaker 4: the UFO conspiracy fits into their ideological framework of the 195 00:12:58,784 --> 00:13:02,223 Speaker 4: deep state. That this is more, that this is less 196 00:13:02,343 --> 00:13:06,264 Speaker 4: about the truth of aliens, and it's more, if we 197 00:13:06,304 --> 00:13:09,904 Speaker 4: can expose the UFO conspiracy, we can expose the deep state. 198 00:13:10,223 --> 00:13:13,024 Speaker 3: Let me tie those two things together. So just today 199 00:13:13,103 --> 00:13:17,264 Speaker 3: on Twitter, Anna Paulina Luna, who's a congresswoman, tweeted today 200 00:13:17,703 --> 00:13:21,584 Speaker 3: about the Kennedy assassination. I've received a hard copy of 201 00:13:21,583 --> 00:13:25,664 Speaker 3: the report on JFK's assassination from the Ambassador of Russia. 202 00:13:25,904 --> 00:13:27,824 Speaker 3: A team of experts is en route to my office 203 00:13:27,824 --> 00:13:30,544 Speaker 3: in the morning to begin translation and review of the documents. 204 00:13:30,784 --> 00:13:33,983 Speaker 3: Thank you gun to everyone involved, to include the Russian embassy, 205 00:13:34,024 --> 00:13:37,504 Speaker 3: for making this happen. And this is a massive historical significance. 206 00:13:37,703 --> 00:13:40,064 Speaker 3: Now I'm sure they already passed this stuff to Oliver Stone, 207 00:13:40,144 --> 00:13:42,984 Speaker 3: but like this stuff just keeps going. This is a 208 00:13:43,064 --> 00:13:46,544 Speaker 3: congresswoman today. If she's not talking about UFOs, she's talking 209 00:13:46,544 --> 00:13:47,743 Speaker 3: about the Kennedy assassination. 210 00:13:47,824 --> 00:13:52,184 Speaker 4: And by the I really welcome these new revelations straight 211 00:13:52,424 --> 00:13:56,744 Speaker 4: from the studio that brought you the protocols of the 212 00:13:56,744 --> 00:13:59,624 Speaker 4: Elders of Zion and are now going to blow the 213 00:13:59,664 --> 00:14:03,624 Speaker 4: lid off of the JFK assassination, which surely has just 214 00:14:03,664 --> 00:14:07,624 Speaker 4: been lying around in the Russian archives until Anna, Pauline 215 00:14:07,664 --> 00:14:28,944 Speaker 4: and Luna thought to ask for them. 216 00:14:29,144 --> 00:14:31,824 Speaker 3: You had real success in recent years with your oral histories, 217 00:14:31,864 --> 00:14:35,144 Speaker 3: and you've also had success with regular investigative journalism and 218 00:14:35,184 --> 00:14:38,584 Speaker 3: research history. When you do oral histories, is that something 219 00:14:38,584 --> 00:14:41,264 Speaker 3: that brings in more of these things conspiracy theories because 220 00:14:41,264 --> 00:14:44,064 Speaker 3: people are talking about events through their own filter rather 221 00:14:44,064 --> 00:14:46,584 Speaker 3: than as a historian who can weed that stuff out. 222 00:14:46,704 --> 00:14:48,704 Speaker 3: What do you learn in these oral histories and is 223 00:14:48,704 --> 00:14:51,664 Speaker 3: it something we learn more about how people see these things. 224 00:14:52,064 --> 00:14:55,104 Speaker 4: It's a great question. So, as you said, I've done 225 00:14:55,544 --> 00:14:58,504 Speaker 4: just published my third book length oral history, which was 226 00:14:58,504 --> 00:15:01,144 Speaker 4: of the Manhattan Project and the atomic bomb. Did one 227 00:15:01,264 --> 00:15:03,224 Speaker 4: last year on D Day? Did a previous one on 228 00:15:03,304 --> 00:15:05,904 Speaker 4: nine to eleven. Have done a bunch of magazine oral 229 00:15:05,984 --> 00:15:09,024 Speaker 4: histories as well, and I think the power of oral 230 00:15:09,144 --> 00:15:14,064 Speaker 4: history to me is that it gives you a chance 231 00:15:14,224 --> 00:15:19,544 Speaker 4: to go back and live through events in the eyes 232 00:15:19,864 --> 00:15:24,384 Speaker 4: of the people experiencing them before they know the outcome. 233 00:15:24,704 --> 00:15:27,864 Speaker 4: That I think sort of part of the challenge of 234 00:15:28,344 --> 00:15:31,544 Speaker 4: narrative history. And I love narrative history. I read narrative history, 235 00:15:31,584 --> 00:15:35,904 Speaker 4: I write narrative history. But narrative history often makes events 236 00:15:36,104 --> 00:15:40,624 Speaker 4: seem deeter, cleaner, simpler, and more preordained than they felt 237 00:15:40,784 --> 00:15:43,944 Speaker 4: to anyone at the time. And you guys know this 238 00:15:43,984 --> 00:15:48,383 Speaker 4: from the intelligence world. None of us know how our 239 00:15:48,424 --> 00:15:52,984 Speaker 4: stories are going to end. And there's a sort of 240 00:15:53,064 --> 00:15:56,664 Speaker 4: apocryphal classical story that I think a lot about of 241 00:15:57,104 --> 00:16:02,144 Speaker 4: Solin being asked by Caesar Augustus, am I lucky? And 242 00:16:02,424 --> 00:16:07,224 Speaker 4: Solan's answer is hard to tell, You're not dead yet, 243 00:16:08,664 --> 00:16:12,304 Speaker 4: And that so much of our sort of successes and 244 00:16:12,344 --> 00:16:18,824 Speaker 4: failures are only ever visible in hindsight, and for the 245 00:16:18,984 --> 00:16:24,184 Speaker 4: people who are living these events, experiencing them is totally 246 00:16:24,224 --> 00:16:27,464 Speaker 4: different than the way that history gets written. To illustrate that, 247 00:16:27,584 --> 00:16:30,784 Speaker 4: I'll talk about nine to eleven, where we with my 248 00:16:30,824 --> 00:16:34,264 Speaker 4: first oral history project in an event you guys both 249 00:16:34,304 --> 00:16:38,664 Speaker 4: lived through and as I did, and forty percent of 250 00:16:38,704 --> 00:16:43,184 Speaker 4: America is now too young to remember nine to eleven. 251 00:16:43,224 --> 00:16:46,224 Speaker 4: They were either too young in two thousand and one 252 00:16:46,304 --> 00:16:48,904 Speaker 4: or have been born after, and so they only read 253 00:16:48,904 --> 00:16:52,064 Speaker 4: about nine to eleven in history books, and the history 254 00:16:52,304 --> 00:16:56,664 Speaker 4: that they read goes something like this. The attacks begin 255 00:16:57,104 --> 00:16:59,544 Speaker 4: at eight forty six in the morning. The whole thing 256 00:16:59,624 --> 00:17:02,304 Speaker 4: is over one hundred and two minutes later, at ten 257 00:17:02,344 --> 00:17:05,864 Speaker 4: twenty eight, with the collapse of the second tower. There 258 00:17:05,864 --> 00:17:11,064 Speaker 4: are four attacks, four hijacked planes, and three thousand people die. 259 00:17:11,104 --> 00:17:16,064 Speaker 4: And that is an entirely factually true summary, but is 260 00:17:16,184 --> 00:17:20,304 Speaker 4: not the day that any of us remembered living through 261 00:17:20,824 --> 00:17:24,224 Speaker 4: on nine to eleven. We didn't understand when the attacks began. 262 00:17:24,384 --> 00:17:28,263 Speaker 4: We didn't understand when the attacks were over. There was 263 00:17:28,384 --> 00:17:30,624 Speaker 4: no real sense for much of the day how many 264 00:17:30,784 --> 00:17:33,784 Speaker 4: hijacked planes there actually were. I mean, the US government 265 00:17:34,184 --> 00:17:37,064 Speaker 4: believed that there were still a dozen hijacked airliners in 266 00:17:37,104 --> 00:17:40,584 Speaker 4: the sky over North America at one pm Tuesday, September 267 00:17:40,584 --> 00:17:42,544 Speaker 4: of the eleventh, and there was no sense that there 268 00:17:42,624 --> 00:17:45,264 Speaker 4: was quote unquote only three thousand people dead. 269 00:17:45,264 --> 00:17:45,664 Speaker 5: That day. 270 00:17:45,704 --> 00:17:50,184 Speaker 4: Those initial death tolls were ten twenty thousand, and there 271 00:17:50,224 --> 00:17:54,344 Speaker 4: was no sense that these events were confined to just 272 00:17:54,464 --> 00:17:57,984 Speaker 4: New York, Washington and Shanksville, Pennsylvania. Wherever you were in 273 00:17:58,024 --> 00:18:01,304 Speaker 4: the country, it felt you were under attack as well. 274 00:18:01,384 --> 00:18:04,944 Speaker 4: If flights were grounded all across the country. Skyscrapers were 275 00:18:04,984 --> 00:18:09,304 Speaker 4: evacuated in Boston and Chicago and San Francisco and Los Angeles. 276 00:18:09,864 --> 00:18:14,704 Speaker 4: Disney shuts down in Florida, the Toronto Subway is evacuated 277 00:18:14,784 --> 00:18:18,104 Speaker 4: on nine to eleven. And so if you only read 278 00:18:18,144 --> 00:18:20,864 Speaker 4: about nine to eleven in the history books, what you 279 00:18:21,144 --> 00:18:25,744 Speaker 4: miss is all of the fear, the chaos, the confusion, 280 00:18:25,824 --> 00:18:31,304 Speaker 4: and the trauma that we experienced living through nine to eleven. 281 00:18:31,624 --> 00:18:36,664 Speaker 4: And to me, that really matters because and you guys 282 00:18:36,944 --> 00:18:40,624 Speaker 4: lived this in your professional lives. If you miss the fear, 283 00:18:40,704 --> 00:18:43,224 Speaker 4: the chaos, the confusion, and the trauma of nine to 284 00:18:43,224 --> 00:18:47,784 Speaker 4: eleven to America, you miss entirely why America responded in 285 00:18:47,824 --> 00:18:51,944 Speaker 4: the way that we did in terms of the military response, 286 00:18:51,984 --> 00:18:56,704 Speaker 4: the intelligence response, the law enforcement response, like we were 287 00:18:56,784 --> 00:19:01,504 Speaker 4: responding to the national trauma of those events, not the 288 00:19:01,584 --> 00:19:05,144 Speaker 4: facts of those events. And what I think you really 289 00:19:05,224 --> 00:19:07,544 Speaker 4: see when you begin to get into these oral histories 290 00:19:08,104 --> 00:19:12,544 Speaker 4: is that personal experience and the way that sort of 291 00:19:12,824 --> 00:19:18,744 Speaker 4: people can have authentic and meaningful personal experiences that day 292 00:19:19,304 --> 00:19:23,944 Speaker 4: that are disconnected from the history and the events of 293 00:19:23,984 --> 00:19:25,864 Speaker 4: the day. And so let me give you a specific 294 00:19:25,904 --> 00:19:29,744 Speaker 4: example that you two will probably remember, and I had 295 00:19:29,824 --> 00:19:31,664 Speaker 4: when I was doing my book. I had a tussle 296 00:19:32,264 --> 00:19:35,184 Speaker 4: with the staff of the nine to eleven Commission about 297 00:19:35,224 --> 00:19:40,224 Speaker 4: this incident where I feature in my book the story 298 00:19:40,624 --> 00:19:46,224 Speaker 4: of the DC Air National Guard pilots being scrambled into 299 00:19:46,224 --> 00:19:49,664 Speaker 4: the air to shoot down Flight ninety three. They are 300 00:19:50,104 --> 00:19:55,784 Speaker 4: it's Heather Lucky Penny, Mark Sasphil and actually, interestingly enough, 301 00:19:55,784 --> 00:19:59,904 Speaker 4: our new Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Dan raising cain Caine, 302 00:20:00,624 --> 00:20:02,784 Speaker 4: was part of this unit and was part of the 303 00:20:03,024 --> 00:20:05,504 Speaker 4: nine to eleven response from the DC Air National Guard 304 00:20:05,624 --> 00:20:08,784 Speaker 4: that day. But Heather Lucky Penny and Mark sas sass 305 00:20:08,864 --> 00:20:12,064 Speaker 4: Phil are scrambled into the air from Andrews Air Force 306 00:20:12,104 --> 00:20:15,264 Speaker 4: Base that morning and they go up without any weapons 307 00:20:15,384 --> 00:20:19,544 Speaker 4: that they go up with these unarmed planes to crash 308 00:20:19,784 --> 00:20:24,984 Speaker 4: into Flight ninety three because that's the only thing that 309 00:20:25,064 --> 00:20:27,464 Speaker 4: the US government is able to get into the air 310 00:20:27,824 --> 00:20:30,904 Speaker 4: that quickly. So they have a whole plan. SaaS is 311 00:20:30,984 --> 00:20:34,504 Speaker 4: going to crash into the cockpit, and Heather Lucky Penny 312 00:20:34,624 --> 00:20:36,783 Speaker 4: is going to crash into the tail, and that's how 313 00:20:36,824 --> 00:20:38,744 Speaker 4: they're going to bring down Flight ninety three as it 314 00:20:38,864 --> 00:20:42,824 Speaker 4: approaches Washington. Now, they don't get off the ground until 315 00:20:42,904 --> 00:20:45,824 Speaker 4: about ten thirty seven that morning, so more than a 316 00:20:45,864 --> 00:20:50,224 Speaker 4: half hour after Flight ninety three has actually crashed in 317 00:20:50,224 --> 00:20:53,784 Speaker 4: the fields outside Shanksville, Pennsylvania. So the nine to eleven 318 00:20:53,864 --> 00:20:58,904 Speaker 4: Commission sort of writes them out of history because in 319 00:20:59,704 --> 00:21:04,104 Speaker 4: the Commission's view, which is not wrong, they're irrelevant to 320 00:21:04,344 --> 00:21:09,024 Speaker 4: the history of that day. They are not an effective 321 00:21:09,024 --> 00:21:13,144 Speaker 4: countermar by the US government. The event is over, and 322 00:21:13,464 --> 00:21:16,384 Speaker 4: had flight ninety three continued on to Washington, it would 323 00:21:16,464 --> 00:21:19,824 Speaker 4: have already reached Washington by the time their plane got 324 00:21:19,864 --> 00:21:22,824 Speaker 4: into the air. Anyway, But from my perspective, from an 325 00:21:22,944 --> 00:21:29,024 Speaker 4: oral historian's perspective, their experiences are authentic because they don't 326 00:21:29,064 --> 00:21:32,624 Speaker 4: know that they are relevant to history. As their planes 327 00:21:32,624 --> 00:21:35,384 Speaker 4: are scrambled into the air, they are taking to the 328 00:21:35,424 --> 00:21:39,664 Speaker 4: air thinking that they are the last line of defense 329 00:21:39,744 --> 00:21:42,184 Speaker 4: for the country and for the US Capitol or the 330 00:21:42,184 --> 00:21:44,424 Speaker 4: White House. And I think that sort of to me 331 00:21:44,544 --> 00:21:49,584 Speaker 4: That's part of the power and the experience of being 332 00:21:49,624 --> 00:21:53,064 Speaker 4: able to tell history through oral history is you get 333 00:21:53,144 --> 00:21:57,504 Speaker 4: all of that emotion that is often stripped away from 334 00:21:57,504 --> 00:21:59,184 Speaker 4: the narrative history as we teach it. 335 00:21:59,504 --> 00:22:00,984 Speaker 2: Nine to eleven was a big part of my life, 336 00:22:01,024 --> 00:22:04,023 Speaker 2: right when John's as well, every agency officer, pick anybody 337 00:22:04,064 --> 00:22:06,424 Speaker 2: in our generation. When it happened, I was in Germany. 338 00:22:06,424 --> 00:22:08,304 Speaker 2: It was about three o'clock in the afternoon. And when 339 00:22:08,304 --> 00:22:10,664 Speaker 2: it happened, I knew it was Kaida, and I knew 340 00:22:10,704 --> 00:22:14,024 Speaker 2: our lives were about to change. But when I see 341 00:22:14,264 --> 00:22:16,544 Speaker 2: and I spent a lot of time in Afghanistan chasing 342 00:22:16,584 --> 00:22:19,544 Speaker 2: a six foot five Saudi guy unsuccessfully up and put 343 00:22:19,544 --> 00:22:21,864 Speaker 2: the Hindu kush and it was you know, it was 344 00:22:21,944 --> 00:22:23,544 Speaker 2: clear it was him. And he's been a lot and 345 00:22:23,544 --> 00:22:25,824 Speaker 2: in El Kaida, and they there's something they were proud 346 00:22:25,864 --> 00:22:27,904 Speaker 2: of and something they admitted to eventually, and we have 347 00:22:27,944 --> 00:22:30,984 Speaker 2: all the proof of it. And yet just yesterday, I 348 00:22:31,064 --> 00:22:33,384 Speaker 2: live on a Wahu. I was driving down a back 349 00:22:33,464 --> 00:22:35,344 Speaker 2: road and there was a stop sign and someone had 350 00:22:35,384 --> 00:22:37,984 Speaker 2: put a sticker on it. Someone had printed this up 351 00:22:38,224 --> 00:22:42,064 Speaker 2: and it said nine to eleven was an inside job. 352 00:22:42,504 --> 00:22:45,064 Speaker 2: Now I don't know what the fuck that means. I'm 353 00:22:45,064 --> 00:22:47,263 Speaker 2: sorry to use an explotive, but it was like, like 354 00:22:47,424 --> 00:22:49,384 Speaker 2: this taken up a huge part of my life. Friends 355 00:22:49,384 --> 00:22:52,584 Speaker 2: of mine were killed reacting to this. And you've got 356 00:22:52,944 --> 00:22:55,824 Speaker 2: I don't know, somebody printing stickers saying it's an inside 357 00:22:55,944 --> 00:22:58,544 Speaker 2: I don't even know what inside job means. It's this 358 00:22:58,784 --> 00:23:01,824 Speaker 2: vacuous term. And I've heard everything from the Jews got 359 00:23:01,824 --> 00:23:04,464 Speaker 2: out in time, Right, it was the Mosad, or it 360 00:23:04,504 --> 00:23:06,664 Speaker 2: was the US government. Why we would do this so 361 00:23:06,704 --> 00:23:10,584 Speaker 2: we could successfully invade like a penniless place in Afghanistan? Yeah, 362 00:23:10,584 --> 00:23:14,344 Speaker 2: there's a plan for it. Right, It's like sometimes Ahams Raiser, 363 00:23:14,504 --> 00:23:17,584 Speaker 2: things are simple. You say, there's this trust in the government. 364 00:23:17,664 --> 00:23:21,584 Speaker 2: This isn't like passive distrust. This is proactive. I Am 365 00:23:21,624 --> 00:23:25,024 Speaker 2: going to create distrust and if something ban happened, it 366 00:23:25,384 --> 00:23:28,944 Speaker 2: must be somehow these dark forces, which tells me more 367 00:23:28,984 --> 00:23:32,384 Speaker 2: about the people and their mindset and their inability to 368 00:23:32,424 --> 00:23:36,384 Speaker 2: accept straightforward facts. Right, these would be the people burning witches. Right, 369 00:23:36,784 --> 00:23:40,023 Speaker 2: So help me out here, what the what is a well? 370 00:23:40,064 --> 00:23:41,544 Speaker 2: First of all, I don't like the word term truth 371 00:23:41,624 --> 00:23:44,424 Speaker 2: or because it's an Orwellian lie. Right, these are the 372 00:23:44,464 --> 00:23:48,184 Speaker 2: basically nine to eleven liars or the January sixth liars right. 373 00:23:48,864 --> 00:23:54,184 Speaker 4: To me, of all of the conspiracies of the last 374 00:23:54,544 --> 00:23:59,344 Speaker 4: half century or sixty seventy years of American politics, the 375 00:23:59,464 --> 00:24:04,224 Speaker 4: nine to eleven Truthers are the most vile. The idea 376 00:24:04,824 --> 00:24:11,824 Speaker 4: that the US government was actively complicit in the deaths 377 00:24:12,144 --> 00:24:18,224 Speaker 4: of thousands of Americans is as terrible a conspiracy theory 378 00:24:18,264 --> 00:24:21,264 Speaker 4: as I think we have seen. And I'm not totally 379 00:24:21,304 --> 00:24:23,664 Speaker 4: excluding QAnon from it, because I think you see the 380 00:24:23,784 --> 00:24:28,784 Speaker 4: roots of what we now call QAnon in the beginning 381 00:24:28,944 --> 00:24:31,624 Speaker 4: of nine to eleven Truthers and Alex Jones and how 382 00:24:31,664 --> 00:24:37,224 Speaker 4: that evolves into Sandy Hook crisis actors and Pizzagate and QAnon. 383 00:24:37,624 --> 00:24:41,784 Speaker 4: But the challenge that I as someone who has written 384 00:24:42,104 --> 00:24:45,504 Speaker 4: about the federal government and intelligence and national security and 385 00:24:45,544 --> 00:24:48,944 Speaker 4: federal law enforcement for twenty years at this point, the 386 00:24:49,224 --> 00:24:52,304 Speaker 4: challenge that I always say that I have is that 387 00:24:52,384 --> 00:24:59,344 Speaker 4: government conspiracies presuppose a level of competence, foresight, and planning 388 00:24:59,544 --> 00:25:02,584 Speaker 4: that is not on display in the rest of the 389 00:25:02,624 --> 00:25:04,384 Speaker 4: work that the government does. And this is the part 390 00:25:04,384 --> 00:25:07,064 Speaker 4: that you guys can argue with me about if you want, 391 00:25:07,104 --> 00:25:10,264 Speaker 4: But to me, the government is capable of keeping two 392 00:25:10,384 --> 00:25:14,184 Speaker 4: kinds of secret, big secrets for a short period of time, 393 00:25:14,664 --> 00:25:18,784 Speaker 4: which is the Manhattan Project, which is the time and 394 00:25:18,864 --> 00:25:24,064 Speaker 4: place of D Day, and small secrets for a long 395 00:25:24,144 --> 00:25:28,263 Speaker 4: period of time, you know, the Argo mission, where you 396 00:25:28,264 --> 00:25:32,904 Speaker 4: know you have maybe a couple dozen people who know 397 00:25:33,104 --> 00:25:38,064 Speaker 4: that and are able to keep it for twenty years whatever. 398 00:25:38,264 --> 00:25:42,464 Speaker 4: I'm totally open to the idea that there are super 399 00:25:42,544 --> 00:25:47,144 Speaker 4: audacious and awesome CIA missions that we don't know about 400 00:25:47,184 --> 00:25:50,544 Speaker 4: that are known by a very small community of people, 401 00:25:50,864 --> 00:25:55,904 Speaker 4: the aliens exactly. But where nine to eleven truthers and 402 00:25:56,064 --> 00:26:00,744 Speaker 4: aliens fall apart for me is this idea that the 403 00:26:00,824 --> 00:26:04,104 Speaker 4: government is keeping a really big secret for a really 404 00:26:04,144 --> 00:26:06,664 Speaker 4: long period of time. Do I think we know everything 405 00:26:06,704 --> 00:26:09,304 Speaker 4: about what the US government knew about nine to eleven 406 00:26:09,344 --> 00:26:11,744 Speaker 4: before nine to eleven? No, I still think that there's 407 00:26:12,024 --> 00:26:15,864 Speaker 4: weird stuff, probably having to do with the Saudi connections 408 00:26:15,944 --> 00:26:18,864 Speaker 4: and what the Saudi government knew about the nine to 409 00:26:18,864 --> 00:26:21,464 Speaker 4: eleven plot beforehand, and all of that. 410 00:26:21,464 --> 00:26:21,624 Speaker 2: That. 411 00:26:21,744 --> 00:26:24,744 Speaker 4: Like, I am open to the idea that the government 412 00:26:24,864 --> 00:26:29,224 Speaker 4: is hiding meaningful knowledge about nine to eleven from us 413 00:26:29,424 --> 00:26:32,624 Speaker 4: still here twenty five years later. What I'm not open 414 00:26:32,744 --> 00:26:38,224 Speaker 4: to is the possibility that there was some major conspiracy 415 00:26:38,904 --> 00:26:42,344 Speaker 4: that it involved, and you can pick any of your 416 00:26:42,384 --> 00:26:44,984 Speaker 4: sort of lanes of nine to eleven conspiracy. That it 417 00:26:45,064 --> 00:26:48,904 Speaker 4: was a controlled implosion of the Twin Towers, that it 418 00:26:49,024 --> 00:26:53,264 Speaker 4: was a missile into the Pentagon and not a plane. 419 00:26:53,904 --> 00:26:57,904 Speaker 4: You know that all the Jews stayed home on September. 420 00:26:58,304 --> 00:27:00,424 Speaker 4: You know, like you can pick any of a dozen. 421 00:27:00,624 --> 00:27:04,064 Speaker 4: You know, Popular Mechanics put out an entire book on 422 00:27:04,584 --> 00:27:07,664 Speaker 4: nine to eleven conspiracies, debunking them one by one, but 423 00:27:07,744 --> 00:27:09,384 Speaker 4: like there are enough of them that you can pub 424 00:27:09,984 --> 00:27:15,424 Speaker 4: entire book. And similar with the UFO conspiracies, where David Grush, 425 00:27:15,584 --> 00:27:19,824 Speaker 4: who's the sort of most recent of the UFO whistleblowers, 426 00:27:20,344 --> 00:27:23,664 Speaker 4: he was saying in media interviews when he first came 427 00:27:23,704 --> 00:27:27,944 Speaker 4: out that there were five thousand people in the US 428 00:27:28,064 --> 00:27:34,704 Speaker 4: government read into the sort of UFO conspiracy and that 429 00:27:34,784 --> 00:27:37,544 Speaker 4: the conspiracy dates back to the nineteen thirties. So those 430 00:27:37,544 --> 00:27:40,984 Speaker 4: are the two bookends of his thing. So, you guys 431 00:27:41,184 --> 00:27:46,224 Speaker 4: worked in government, Like five thousand people in government generate 432 00:27:46,424 --> 00:27:51,224 Speaker 4: an incredible amount of paperwork, like even before you get 433 00:27:51,304 --> 00:27:55,864 Speaker 4: to the like power point briefing in the situation room. 434 00:27:55,984 --> 00:27:59,264 Speaker 4: That's like, mister President here is our UFO cover up 435 00:27:59,304 --> 00:28:06,424 Speaker 4: power point Like you're talking budgets, personnel files, performance reviews, 436 00:28:06,904 --> 00:28:09,264 Speaker 4: procurement requests, sort of, et cetera. 437 00:28:09,304 --> 00:28:14,464 Speaker 2: Sulf getting drunk and talking, praying at parties, people get divorced. Oh, 438 00:28:14,504 --> 00:28:15,464 Speaker 2: I'm going to lend a book. 439 00:28:15,464 --> 00:28:18,744 Speaker 4: And you're talking about five thousand people today in a 440 00:28:18,824 --> 00:28:23,144 Speaker 4: conspiracy that stretches across ninety years. So in round numbers, 441 00:28:23,184 --> 00:28:27,544 Speaker 4: you're talking thirty thousand people over the last ninety years 442 00:28:27,584 --> 00:28:30,784 Speaker 4: who have been read into or known some slice of 443 00:28:30,784 --> 00:28:34,064 Speaker 4: that program. And not one of them, on their deathbed 444 00:28:34,504 --> 00:28:37,904 Speaker 4: has sort of said, guys, I just got to tell 445 00:28:37,904 --> 00:28:40,904 Speaker 4: you about this thing underneath area fifty one. Not one 446 00:28:40,944 --> 00:28:46,344 Speaker 4: of them has accidentally sent their PowerPoint briefing to their 447 00:28:46,424 --> 00:28:50,104 Speaker 4: roommate as an email attachment. Not one of them has 448 00:28:50,744 --> 00:28:54,904 Speaker 4: cause has decided to Edward Snowden and walk out of 449 00:28:55,264 --> 00:28:59,064 Speaker 4: the workplace in a hut after not getting a promotion. 450 00:28:59,824 --> 00:29:02,504 Speaker 3: We totally agree with you, because having worked inside, that's 451 00:29:02,544 --> 00:29:04,504 Speaker 3: so unlikely. But let me go the other way with 452 00:29:04,544 --> 00:29:06,664 Speaker 3: you on this. So, like a lot of your UFO 453 00:29:06,824 --> 00:29:10,824 Speaker 3: conspiracy narratives, they assert the government's hiding something alien bodies 454 00:29:10,904 --> 00:29:14,384 Speaker 3: technology in your research. What is the strongest evidence you've 455 00:29:14,384 --> 00:29:17,904 Speaker 3: found for a cover up, or what's the strongest evidence against. 456 00:29:18,144 --> 00:29:21,224 Speaker 4: I think a lot of this also falls apart in 457 00:29:22,144 --> 00:29:27,624 Speaker 4: people mishearing how government works. So one of the sort 458 00:29:27,624 --> 00:29:32,104 Speaker 4: of David Grush's sort of main claim when he came 459 00:29:32,144 --> 00:29:38,024 Speaker 4: out was effectively, and I'm slightly oversimplifying this, effectively, what 460 00:29:38,064 --> 00:29:41,424 Speaker 4: he was saying is the US government has a UFO 461 00:29:41,664 --> 00:29:46,224 Speaker 4: crash retrieval program that has retrieved technology that the US 462 00:29:46,344 --> 00:29:50,904 Speaker 4: government has assessed is not of this world, is not 463 00:29:51,104 --> 00:29:58,224 Speaker 4: human technology. I believe every single individual part of that fact. 464 00:29:58,264 --> 00:30:01,984 Speaker 4: But I think people have misheard what that means. And 465 00:30:02,304 --> 00:30:04,664 Speaker 4: so let me start to pick that apart in ways 466 00:30:04,664 --> 00:30:08,784 Speaker 4: that you guys will understand. The US government absolutely has 467 00:30:08,784 --> 00:30:12,984 Speaker 4: a UFO retrieval program. We have had one dating back 468 00:30:13,024 --> 00:30:15,544 Speaker 4: to World War One. It was housed at right Patterson 469 00:30:15,584 --> 00:30:20,144 Speaker 4: Air Force Base, the Air Technical Intelligence Center. These are 470 00:30:20,184 --> 00:30:22,984 Speaker 4: the guys who go around and when something falls out 471 00:30:22,984 --> 00:30:28,144 Speaker 4: of the sky on friendly territory or lead audacious missions 472 00:30:28,184 --> 00:30:32,184 Speaker 4: into denied territory to try to recover weird things that 473 00:30:32,264 --> 00:30:35,344 Speaker 4: fall out of the sky. And that's how we got 474 00:30:35,424 --> 00:30:38,784 Speaker 4: our hands on Japanese zeros in World War two. And 475 00:30:38,824 --> 00:30:40,984 Speaker 4: that's how we got our hands on bigs in the 476 00:30:41,064 --> 00:30:45,624 Speaker 4: Korean War and in Vietnam and the Cold War. And 477 00:30:46,064 --> 00:30:48,864 Speaker 4: so that part of the statement is true. The next 478 00:30:48,904 --> 00:30:53,544 Speaker 4: part is, I also believe we have a warehouse somewhere 479 00:30:53,944 --> 00:30:57,704 Speaker 4: that is full of things that the government has retrieved 480 00:30:57,744 --> 00:31:00,744 Speaker 4: that we don't know what it is. And like one 481 00:31:00,824 --> 00:31:04,064 Speaker 4: hundred percent, I'm sure that the US government has like 482 00:31:04,144 --> 00:31:07,664 Speaker 4: a weird intelligence warehouse, you know, at Area fifty one 483 00:31:07,824 --> 00:31:10,264 Speaker 4: or right Patterson or you guys, I'd have even been 484 00:31:10,304 --> 00:31:12,264 Speaker 4: in it at some point in your career where it's like, 485 00:31:12,544 --> 00:31:17,024 Speaker 4: here's sort of our you know, Indiana Jones archive of 486 00:31:17,184 --> 00:31:19,904 Speaker 4: like weird stuff we've found and we don't really know 487 00:31:19,944 --> 00:31:23,624 Speaker 4: what it is. I also believe that there's some guy 488 00:31:23,864 --> 00:31:27,384 Speaker 4: who works on that program who has walked into that 489 00:31:27,464 --> 00:31:30,864 Speaker 4: warehouse and looked at some of that stuff and says 490 00:31:31,504 --> 00:31:34,344 Speaker 4: to other people, man, I don't think all that stuff's 491 00:31:34,344 --> 00:31:37,464 Speaker 4: from earth. The government workforce, you guys know this better 492 00:31:37,504 --> 00:31:41,104 Speaker 4: than I do, is like any workplace, you have those 493 00:31:41,184 --> 00:31:44,344 Speaker 4: weird guys who are like a standard deviation or two 494 00:31:44,584 --> 00:31:48,064 Speaker 4: outside of the other people on the team. And that 495 00:31:48,384 --> 00:31:51,504 Speaker 4: I absolutely believe that sort of someone said to David 496 00:31:51,544 --> 00:31:55,384 Speaker 4: Grush at some point totally truthfully. I've talked to some 497 00:31:55,424 --> 00:31:57,904 Speaker 4: of those guys on the UFO crash retrieval program, and 498 00:31:57,944 --> 00:32:00,104 Speaker 4: they say, there's some stuff there that's not from Earth. 499 00:32:00,424 --> 00:32:03,864 Speaker 4: But that's different than what I think the public heres 500 00:32:03,944 --> 00:32:07,144 Speaker 4: when you say that, which is the idea that the 501 00:32:07,304 --> 00:32:09,864 Speaker 4: Director of National Intelligence has stood up up in the 502 00:32:09,864 --> 00:32:15,104 Speaker 4: situation room and said, mister President, with high confidence, the 503 00:32:15,184 --> 00:32:20,104 Speaker 4: seventeen intelligence agencies of the United States have concluded that 504 00:32:20,344 --> 00:32:24,584 Speaker 4: we have retrieved the technology that is not which I 505 00:32:24,704 --> 00:32:27,504 Speaker 4: do not think has happened. And I think that sort 506 00:32:27,504 --> 00:32:29,944 Speaker 4: of so much of this is just about like people 507 00:32:30,064 --> 00:32:34,824 Speaker 4: not really understanding that sort of translation from what are 508 00:32:34,904 --> 00:32:40,104 Speaker 4: like normal government operations and like the normal divergence of 509 00:32:40,224 --> 00:32:44,544 Speaker 4: views in the intelligence or military community versus there's an 510 00:32:44,584 --> 00:32:45,744 Speaker 4: official conspiracy. 511 00:32:46,024 --> 00:32:49,224 Speaker 2: But David Grush, by the way, if I understand, I 512 00:32:49,264 --> 00:32:51,624 Speaker 2: looked at it pretty closely. He never said he saw 513 00:32:51,664 --> 00:32:54,864 Speaker 2: any of this stuff right. He basically said, my job 514 00:32:55,064 --> 00:32:59,584 Speaker 2: was to investigate unidentified stuff. UFOs doesn't mean anything. It 515 00:32:59,584 --> 00:33:02,584 Speaker 2: just means it's unidentified. So let's just presuppose and I'm 516 00:33:02,624 --> 00:33:07,264 Speaker 2: making this up that a North Korean satellite goes down 517 00:33:07,464 --> 00:33:10,664 Speaker 2: in Tajikistan, and of course it's not sitting there, it's 518 00:33:10,664 --> 00:33:13,664 Speaker 2: like scanned over a couple of acres. We want to 519 00:33:13,704 --> 00:33:16,304 Speaker 2: go get it to see what they're doing. And people 520 00:33:16,344 --> 00:33:19,064 Speaker 2: we send in, we're not probably won't tell them that 521 00:33:19,184 --> 00:33:21,184 Speaker 2: will say, go in and what you find? And what 522 00:33:21,224 --> 00:33:23,864 Speaker 2: do they find? They find wires and bits of material 523 00:33:24,024 --> 00:33:25,984 Speaker 2: and they gather it up and they bring it out. 524 00:33:26,064 --> 00:33:28,064 Speaker 2: We may not. In fact, we probably wouldn't want to 525 00:33:28,104 --> 00:33:30,104 Speaker 2: even tell them what it is when they're doing, at 526 00:33:30,184 --> 00:33:33,104 Speaker 2: least all of them, because people will talk. So it 527 00:33:33,144 --> 00:33:37,224 Speaker 2: comes back and now we've got this material that's unidentified, 528 00:33:37,584 --> 00:33:40,424 Speaker 2: and David Grush says, hey, I'm with this office that's 529 00:33:40,464 --> 00:33:43,544 Speaker 2: investigating this, and yeah, we know what this is. This 530 00:33:43,624 --> 00:33:46,424 Speaker 2: is North Korean saleite pieces of it. But they're going 531 00:33:46,504 --> 00:33:49,104 Speaker 2: to tell him, hey man, you don't have to worry 532 00:33:49,144 --> 00:33:52,144 Speaker 2: about this. We got it covered. And he takes it 533 00:33:52,184 --> 00:33:56,744 Speaker 2: as you are preventing me, David Grush, from finding out 534 00:33:56,784 --> 00:33:59,224 Speaker 2: the truth. It's like, no, the US government knows the 535 00:33:59,264 --> 00:34:01,744 Speaker 2: truth of what that is. But David Grush when he 536 00:34:01,784 --> 00:34:05,424 Speaker 2: went before Congress, he said, I wasn't given access. Is 537 00:34:05,464 --> 00:34:08,384 Speaker 2: if you must give me access? So yeah, there are programs, 538 00:34:08,464 --> 00:34:11,104 Speaker 2: and then he named an off that I actually know about, 539 00:34:11,384 --> 00:34:13,424 Speaker 2: and like they all laugh because there's like only a 540 00:34:13,424 --> 00:34:15,223 Speaker 2: couple dozen of them, and these are not people who 541 00:34:15,224 --> 00:34:18,383 Speaker 2: collects in it, and you've gotten things wrong in translation. 542 00:34:18,703 --> 00:34:21,504 Speaker 2: But when you look at somebody in the outside taken this, 543 00:34:21,984 --> 00:34:25,904 Speaker 2: they can build it into an almost rock solid conspiracy theory. 544 00:34:26,064 --> 00:34:29,064 Speaker 4: Yeah. And to that end, there was this fascinating report 545 00:34:29,064 --> 00:34:31,143 Speaker 4: that came out from Ode and I about a year 546 00:34:31,223 --> 00:34:33,704 Speaker 4: and a half ago after the sort of first wave 547 00:34:33,783 --> 00:34:38,623 Speaker 4: of these stories, where the report said, we have tracked 548 00:34:38,623 --> 00:34:42,343 Speaker 4: down all the SAPs, the special access programs that David 549 00:34:42,344 --> 00:34:47,823 Speaker 4: Grush and the other whistleblowers say are UFO programs, and 550 00:34:47,864 --> 00:34:50,984 Speaker 4: we have found them and they are not UFO programs. 551 00:34:51,344 --> 00:34:53,863 Speaker 4: And it was a report that sort of instantly was 552 00:34:53,904 --> 00:34:57,864 Speaker 4: denounced by both sides because the skeptics were like, see, 553 00:34:57,864 --> 00:35:01,184 Speaker 4: there was no truth to it. The believers said, see, 554 00:35:01,183 --> 00:35:03,424 Speaker 4: this is just part of the cover up. And to me, 555 00:35:04,024 --> 00:35:07,104 Speaker 4: there was like this much more interesting question at the 556 00:35:07,143 --> 00:35:10,984 Speaker 4: heart of that report, then, which is what are the 557 00:35:11,064 --> 00:35:14,823 Speaker 4: special access programs that the US government runs that the 558 00:35:14,944 --> 00:35:20,343 Speaker 4: people who like share the office kitchen with mistake as 559 00:35:20,464 --> 00:35:25,944 Speaker 4: being UFO alien cover ups? And that's a super fascinating 560 00:35:25,984 --> 00:35:31,464 Speaker 4: thought experiment. Is it propulsion systems that we have discovered 561 00:35:31,504 --> 00:35:36,223 Speaker 4: that we haven't talked about publicly. Is it propulsion systems 562 00:35:36,263 --> 00:35:40,983 Speaker 4: that our adversaries have discovered that we don't understand yet 563 00:35:41,024 --> 00:35:44,743 Speaker 4: that we're trying to reverse engineer. Is it material sciences? 564 00:35:45,384 --> 00:35:50,344 Speaker 4: Is it types of math that like we don't understand 565 00:35:50,464 --> 00:35:53,544 Speaker 4: yet and are like struggling our way through. Is it 566 00:35:54,064 --> 00:35:58,183 Speaker 4: weapons systems? It's actually much more interesting to think about 567 00:35:58,304 --> 00:36:01,984 Speaker 4: what are the secret programs that the US government is 568 00:36:02,064 --> 00:36:05,823 Speaker 4: working on? They just stay secret. I'm just that are 569 00:36:06,064 --> 00:36:10,104 Speaker 4: still secret. That sort of everyone who all works on 570 00:36:10,183 --> 00:36:12,944 Speaker 4: that hallway goes home, and it's like, I think my 571 00:36:12,984 --> 00:36:15,223 Speaker 4: buddy's working on a flying saucer. 572 00:36:31,544 --> 00:36:33,663 Speaker 3: Let's go back to one of the early Cold War 573 00:36:33,743 --> 00:36:35,823 Speaker 3: things you wrote about it in the Atomic Program. Do 574 00:36:35,864 --> 00:36:38,783 Speaker 3: you think the secrecy around the Atomic Program set the 575 00:36:38,783 --> 00:36:42,144 Speaker 3: blueprint for a lot of these modern government conspiracies, everything 576 00:36:42,183 --> 00:36:45,264 Speaker 3: from Area fifty one to Kem Trails to deep state stuff, 577 00:36:45,304 --> 00:36:49,504 Speaker 3: because obviously that was a conspiracy, one that was obviously sanctioned, 578 00:36:49,904 --> 00:36:52,024 Speaker 3: but it was hidden from the public for the good reason. 579 00:36:52,504 --> 00:36:54,783 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think it, And this has been one 580 00:36:54,783 --> 00:36:56,223 Speaker 4: of the things I've talked a lot about on my 581 00:36:56,263 --> 00:36:59,143 Speaker 4: book tour over the last couple of weeks. We often 582 00:36:59,344 --> 00:37:03,823 Speaker 4: think of the legacy of the Manhattan Project as the 583 00:37:03,864 --> 00:37:07,584 Speaker 4: atomic bomb. To me, it's not the most important legacy 584 00:37:07,584 --> 00:37:13,504 Speaker 4: of the Manhattan Project is this entirely new way of 585 00:37:13,743 --> 00:37:18,864 Speaker 4: the US government understanding that science and technology and innovation 586 00:37:19,064 --> 00:37:22,183 Speaker 4: is a core source of national strength. Along with the 587 00:37:22,223 --> 00:37:26,504 Speaker 4: work at the mit Rad Lab on radar and the 588 00:37:26,504 --> 00:37:30,303 Speaker 4: proximity fuze in World War Two, it sets up this 589 00:37:30,424 --> 00:37:35,984 Speaker 4: whole new way of doing science, and this relationship between 590 00:37:36,544 --> 00:37:39,903 Speaker 4: the higher education and the national labs, which is what 591 00:37:40,064 --> 00:37:45,144 Speaker 4: Los Alamos and Berkeley and Oakridge grow into after the war. 592 00:37:45,663 --> 00:37:49,104 Speaker 4: It helps jumpstart the National Science Foundation, it turns nih 593 00:37:49,183 --> 00:37:52,584 Speaker 4: into a big grant making organization after the war. It 594 00:37:52,663 --> 00:37:56,623 Speaker 4: helps jump start DARPA later, And it's really just this 595 00:37:57,464 --> 00:38:02,463 Speaker 4: way of looking at government, science, technology, education, and by 596 00:38:02,504 --> 00:38:06,504 Speaker 4: the way, a lot of good immigration, and how that 597 00:38:06,663 --> 00:38:13,864 Speaker 4: delivers this model of economic innovation and prosperity that helps 598 00:38:13,984 --> 00:38:18,464 Speaker 4: power the next half century of American daily life. One 599 00:38:18,504 --> 00:38:22,383 Speaker 4: of the things I worry a lot about now is 600 00:38:22,544 --> 00:38:28,903 Speaker 4: the extent to which we are very actively dismantling that system. 601 00:38:29,263 --> 00:38:32,263 Speaker 4: At the exact moment that we are about to live 602 00:38:32,304 --> 00:38:37,423 Speaker 4: through a technological revolution in artificial intelligence that is potentially 603 00:38:37,623 --> 00:38:42,623 Speaker 4: as transformative as the you know, sort of a rival 604 00:38:42,864 --> 00:38:46,663 Speaker 4: of atomic energy was in the nineteen forties. 605 00:38:46,864 --> 00:38:50,623 Speaker 2: Can you run a government by conspiracy theorist have conspiracies 606 00:38:50,623 --> 00:38:51,864 Speaker 2: about their own organization? 607 00:38:52,944 --> 00:38:53,143 Speaker 5: Well? 608 00:38:53,783 --> 00:38:55,423 Speaker 2: Tried it right or pol pot right? 609 00:38:55,464 --> 00:38:58,104 Speaker 4: I mean, and like that to be as part of 610 00:38:58,143 --> 00:39:00,984 Speaker 4: the really amazing thing, you know, like let's release the 611 00:39:00,984 --> 00:39:05,263 Speaker 4: Epstein files. Sort of all of these people who came 612 00:39:05,464 --> 00:39:11,263 Speaker 4: to power like Cash Battel and Dan Bongino as conspiracy 613 00:39:11,304 --> 00:39:15,703 Speaker 4: theorists and are now in these positions of power and 614 00:39:15,944 --> 00:39:19,544 Speaker 4: continuing to rail against the government and the deep state 615 00:39:19,584 --> 00:39:22,383 Speaker 4: and the conspiracies. And you're like, dude, calls coming from 616 00:39:22,384 --> 00:39:23,984 Speaker 4: inside the house now, like you're. 617 00:39:23,944 --> 00:39:26,464 Speaker 3: They're in a tough position because they railed and railed 618 00:39:26,504 --> 00:39:29,064 Speaker 3: against the deep state while they were outside and said 619 00:39:29,104 --> 00:39:32,024 Speaker 3: the FBI has all these things blah blah blah, and 620 00:39:32,024 --> 00:39:35,823 Speaker 3: now they're there and the people who actually believe them 621 00:39:35,984 --> 00:39:38,143 Speaker 3: are now like, Okay, you're there. Let us see, Like 622 00:39:38,183 --> 00:39:40,623 Speaker 3: how do you choose the subjects you do for oral 623 00:39:40,663 --> 00:39:42,464 Speaker 3: history or even for your narrative histories? 624 00:39:42,703 --> 00:39:44,663 Speaker 4: It's a great, great question, and the sort of short 625 00:39:44,663 --> 00:39:47,424 Speaker 4: answer is, I don't have any specific model for me 626 00:39:48,064 --> 00:39:50,783 Speaker 4: the fun of journalism, and in some ways this I 627 00:39:50,783 --> 00:39:54,344 Speaker 4: think journalists and intelligence professionals have a lot in common. 628 00:39:54,663 --> 00:39:58,384 Speaker 4: The fun of journalism and writing history is that you 629 00:39:58,504 --> 00:40:00,623 Speaker 4: get to wake up in the morning and think of 630 00:40:00,743 --> 00:40:03,143 Speaker 4: questions that you're interested in and then go out and 631 00:40:03,183 --> 00:40:05,984 Speaker 4: find the answers. And because you do the work that 632 00:40:06,024 --> 00:40:09,104 Speaker 4: you do, you can call up people and they'll talk 633 00:40:09,143 --> 00:40:11,464 Speaker 4: to you for a really long period of time and 634 00:40:11,584 --> 00:40:14,703 Speaker 4: tell tell you everything that they know about a subject. 635 00:40:14,864 --> 00:40:17,984 Speaker 4: And that to be is always where your world and 636 00:40:18,064 --> 00:40:22,504 Speaker 4: my world overlap is. If you're super curious and enjoy 637 00:40:22,864 --> 00:40:26,024 Speaker 4: learning new things and learning about the world around, you 638 00:40:26,183 --> 00:40:26,863 Speaker 4: do what we do. 639 00:40:27,104 --> 00:40:30,143 Speaker 3: And the thing about our former job is everything we 640 00:40:30,183 --> 00:40:32,143 Speaker 3: did was secret, and it was secret for a reason, 641 00:40:32,504 --> 00:40:35,343 Speaker 3: not for big conspiracies, but because we had sources and 642 00:40:35,384 --> 00:40:37,503 Speaker 3: we were collecting intelligence. We had to protect those people. 643 00:40:37,584 --> 00:40:40,823 Speaker 3: So secrecy mattered in that case. But when you don't 644 00:40:40,904 --> 00:40:43,104 Speaker 3: understand what an organization does and they tell you that 645 00:40:43,143 --> 00:40:46,064 Speaker 3: they're doing something secret, it's just easy, as General Hayden 646 00:40:46,143 --> 00:40:47,743 Speaker 3: used to say, to go to the darkest corner of 647 00:40:47,743 --> 00:40:50,823 Speaker 3: the room and create your own sort of thought experiments 648 00:40:50,864 --> 00:40:54,184 Speaker 3: on what's going on. So of our age, Watergate seems 649 00:40:54,183 --> 00:40:56,064 Speaker 3: to be the place where people turned against it. It's 650 00:40:56,064 --> 00:40:58,064 Speaker 3: like the government is actually doing things that are not 651 00:40:58,104 --> 00:40:59,984 Speaker 3: in my interest. I think even if you look at 652 00:40:59,984 --> 00:41:03,863 Speaker 3: polling before Watergate, at least people generally trusted what the 653 00:41:03,904 --> 00:41:06,263 Speaker 3: president said or the government said, or the military. And 654 00:41:06,304 --> 00:41:09,183 Speaker 3: afterwards it was very different. It's never really caught up. 655 00:41:09,623 --> 00:41:13,183 Speaker 3: You talk about these big secrets that started and led 656 00:41:13,223 --> 00:41:15,663 Speaker 3: to our views of the deep state. The atomic program, 657 00:41:15,703 --> 00:41:17,984 Speaker 3: which we talked about, was this huge secret, and you 658 00:41:18,024 --> 00:41:20,224 Speaker 3: said people could keep a big secret for a short time. 659 00:41:20,544 --> 00:41:24,024 Speaker 3: Actually we couldn't. Like the Russians. Stalin knew more about 660 00:41:24,064 --> 00:41:27,263 Speaker 3: the atomic program than Truman did when he came and 661 00:41:27,263 --> 00:41:31,023 Speaker 3: we became president, because they had sources riddled through White 662 00:41:31,064 --> 00:41:33,903 Speaker 3: House and the OSS and the atomic program and all 663 00:41:33,904 --> 00:41:35,903 Speaker 3: these other kind of things. And so even the big 664 00:41:35,944 --> 00:41:37,984 Speaker 3: secrets are the secret to everybody. 665 00:41:38,143 --> 00:41:42,584 Speaker 2: Are we uniquely prone as Americans because of our history 666 00:41:42,743 --> 00:41:45,783 Speaker 2: and our makeup to conspiracy theories? Is this just a 667 00:41:45,864 --> 00:41:48,143 Speaker 2: human thing or is this uniquely American? 668 00:41:48,384 --> 00:41:51,783 Speaker 4: Or I think it's a profoundly human thing. I think 669 00:41:51,864 --> 00:41:56,223 Speaker 4: it is a way the storytelling is the sort of 670 00:41:56,344 --> 00:42:01,824 Speaker 4: most fundamental of human existence, back to campfires and stone age, 671 00:42:02,024 --> 00:42:05,024 Speaker 4: and I think I don't want to get myself too 672 00:42:05,143 --> 00:42:10,264 Speaker 4: much in trouble here. The overlap across human history between 673 00:42:10,344 --> 00:42:13,544 Speaker 4: sort of religion and what we would now call conspiracy 674 00:42:13,584 --> 00:42:18,343 Speaker 4: theories is non zero. And in some ways, as you say, 675 00:42:18,464 --> 00:42:22,424 Speaker 4: like the idea of the deep state comes to the 676 00:42:22,544 --> 00:42:25,623 Speaker 4: United States late in our politics, that is a concept 677 00:42:25,663 --> 00:42:29,703 Speaker 4: that is far more familiar to a lot of countries 678 00:42:29,743 --> 00:42:33,984 Speaker 4: like Turkey and South America with different terms than it 679 00:42:34,064 --> 00:42:36,824 Speaker 4: was to the United States. And I think every culture 680 00:42:37,183 --> 00:42:41,623 Speaker 4: has their own types of conspiracies, has their own types 681 00:42:41,663 --> 00:42:47,783 Speaker 4: of tall tale telling. What I do think has changed 682 00:42:47,824 --> 00:42:53,744 Speaker 4: it and turbocharged it in our time has been the Internet, 683 00:42:53,904 --> 00:42:59,704 Speaker 4: and it's been the way that algorithms and social media 684 00:42:59,824 --> 00:43:03,703 Speaker 4: spread these information and the way that people could do 685 00:43:03,783 --> 00:43:06,584 Speaker 4: their own research and publish their own research and reach 686 00:43:06,663 --> 00:43:10,704 Speaker 4: more people now and reach other lives like minded people. 687 00:43:11,104 --> 00:43:13,343 Speaker 4: I do a history podcast called Long Shadow, and we 688 00:43:13,424 --> 00:43:17,223 Speaker 4: did a season this summer on the rise and fall 689 00:43:17,304 --> 00:43:21,424 Speaker 4: of social media, and one of the things we spend 690 00:43:21,703 --> 00:43:26,064 Speaker 4: some real time looking at is how YouTube and its 691 00:43:26,143 --> 00:43:32,064 Speaker 4: algorithm and Facebook and its newsfeed algorithm drive people into 692 00:43:32,143 --> 00:43:36,183 Speaker 4: adjacent conspiracy. The sort of biggest sign that you will 693 00:43:36,223 --> 00:43:39,384 Speaker 4: believe in a conspiracy theory is that you believe in 694 00:43:39,424 --> 00:43:42,104 Speaker 4: a different conspiracy theory, and that sort of the way 695 00:43:42,384 --> 00:43:46,663 Speaker 4: that YouTube algorithms and Facebook algorithms. You know, are you 696 00:43:46,703 --> 00:43:49,823 Speaker 4: interested in the jfk assassination, then you might also like 697 00:43:50,024 --> 00:43:54,183 Speaker 4: flat earth, but you might also like, you know, COVID 698 00:43:54,384 --> 00:44:00,704 Speaker 4: anti vaxxers. One of the challenges was until twenty five 699 00:44:00,944 --> 00:44:05,104 Speaker 4: thirty years ago, it was much harder for these conspiracies 700 00:44:05,344 --> 00:44:10,143 Speaker 4: just spread and be published. And these conspiracies theories in 701 00:44:10,183 --> 00:44:13,303 Speaker 4: the pre Internet age were really growing at the rate 702 00:44:13,344 --> 00:44:17,064 Speaker 4: of sort of one pamphlet at a time, as opposed 703 00:44:17,143 --> 00:44:20,383 Speaker 4: to people sitting down at their computer every night and 704 00:44:20,424 --> 00:44:22,703 Speaker 4: being like, what conspiracy am I going to rab it 705 00:44:22,783 --> 00:44:23,904 Speaker 4: hole myself in tonight? 706 00:44:23,944 --> 00:44:25,863 Speaker 3: It used to be hard to find each other if 707 00:44:25,864 --> 00:44:28,623 Speaker 3: you believed in some weird conspiracy. Now like you can 708 00:44:28,623 --> 00:44:30,584 Speaker 3: find each other easily. But we want to thank you 709 00:44:30,743 --> 00:44:33,023 Speaker 3: very much for spending time with us today, and things 710 00:44:33,024 --> 00:44:35,223 Speaker 3: you write about fit right into the wheelhouse of what 711 00:44:35,424 --> 00:44:37,703 Speaker 3: real history with conspiracies that come to them. 712 00:44:37,783 --> 00:44:39,303 Speaker 4: Well, it was a pleasure spending time with you guys 713 00:44:39,304 --> 00:44:45,824 Speaker 4: today and this is always fun to see our overlapping world. 714 00:44:46,104 --> 00:44:51,183 Speaker 6: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'Shea, John Ceipher, 715 00:44:51,424 --> 00:44:56,504 Speaker 6: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission Implausible. 716 00:44:56,504 --> 00:45:00,024 Speaker 6: It's a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures for 717 00:45:00,143 --> 00:45:10,783 Speaker 6: iHeart Podcasts.