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Speaker 1: Trust Me? Do you trust me?

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Speaker 2: Right? Ever? Lead you astrating tr us This is the truth,

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Speaker 2: the only truth.

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Speaker 1: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 1: welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief

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Speaker 1: and manipulation from two daughters of Christine who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 1: I am Lolablanc, the actual biological daughter of Christine Murrie.

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Speaker 3: And I am Megan Elizabeth, a big doctor Christine Murray fan,

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Speaker 3: which is close enough to being a daughter.

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Speaker 1: Agreed. This week is part one with another one of

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Speaker 1: her fake daughters, Nomesia A Yeah, Nomesia aka nomes Spiceline

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Speaker 1: from the Netflix docuseries Trust Me the False Prophet, which

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Speaker 1: does have my mom Christine Murray in it. Nomes is

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Speaker 1: going to talk to us about what it was like

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Speaker 1: growing up in the FLDS after Warren Jeffs went to prison,

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Speaker 1: how she was raised to be paranoid about the outside world,

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Speaker 1: and how many of the men in the community were

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Speaker 1: sidelined and sent away.

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Speaker 3: She'll explain how Samuel Bateman began claiming that he was

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Speaker 3: the new Prophet, and what it was like when he

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Speaker 3: started targeting her and wearing her down over time, threatening

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Speaker 3: her salvation and ultimately coercing her into becoming one of

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Speaker 3: his wives.

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Speaker 1: And next week, in part two, she will talk about

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Speaker 1: the raid and Sam's conviction and her relationship with my mom.

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Speaker 1: Now there is so much to get into. I'm so

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Speaker 1: happy Nomes was able to join us. Before we do

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Speaker 1: begin with her, I'd love to know Megan's cultiest thing

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Speaker 1: of the week. That's me.

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Speaker 3: My cultiest thing of the week is while I was

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Speaker 3: watching Trust Me the False Prophet on Netflix, guys ps

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Speaker 3: if you haven't seen it yet, I was very struck

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Speaker 3: by how much nostalgia I had for certain points of

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Speaker 3: my own high control religious background, and that I loved

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Speaker 3: how we.

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Speaker 1: Would all play with each other's hair.

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Speaker 3: There was a lot of that going on in the dock,

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Speaker 3: you know, because we all had I would sit on

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Speaker 3: my hair. I would like snap my hair back if

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Speaker 3: I head backup accidentally sat on my hair, and we

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Speaker 3: all had to do very intricate braids. I mean there

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Speaker 3: was a braid in this stock that I was like.

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Speaker 1: Oh, there was a beautiful braid. I know the exact

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Speaker 1: braid you're talking about. I know you do.

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Speaker 3: And it's like, you know, some girls would be like,

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Speaker 3: I know how to fish tael braid. I know how

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Speaker 3: to black braid, and you'd like get in line at convention.

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Speaker 3: We'd have these steak conventions that everybody would go to

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Speaker 3: to like try to get the best braid, and you know,

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Speaker 3: it was a nice part otherwise horrible systems.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, getting your hair played with is just

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Speaker 1: the best thing. I think it's like just truly one

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Speaker 1: of the best things and absolutely one of the worst

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Speaker 1: things about adulthood. I guess if you have a boyfriend

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Speaker 1: who plays with your hair, I guess that is also

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Speaker 1: a thing.

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Speaker 3: I yeah, but there's something like more meaningful if your

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Speaker 3: hair is going to look better when they're done playing

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Speaker 3: with that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it's so true. If it's going to be

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Speaker 1: in a beautiful braid after that you could never do

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Speaker 1: on your own, Like yeah, and it's going.

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Speaker 3: To attract men in your religion and be like look

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Speaker 3: at her braid.

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Speaker 1: That was important to know. That's what they say, that's

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Speaker 1: how they say it.

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Speaker 3: So anyway, this story is harrowing, but I did take

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Speaker 3: away that moment and you know, tuck it away.

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Speaker 1: What about you? What's your cultist thing? This week? So

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Speaker 1: I have been reading about a cult that was rated

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Speaker 1: in the UK. It seems very fascinating. So they were

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Speaker 1: rated for allegations of sexual assaults or sexual offenses, modern

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Speaker 1: slavery and forced marriage. Oh my god, it's this group

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Speaker 1: called the Ahmadi Religion of Peace and Light, Oh dear.

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Speaker 1: It was founded by a man who's actually American named

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Speaker 1: Abdullah Hushim, and Abdullah Hushem has claimed that he is

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Speaker 1: basically the Islamic version of the second Coming of Christ,

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Speaker 1: like it's a Messiah of sorts. He's also claimed to

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Speaker 1: be the true Pope and the successor of Christ.

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Speaker 2: Like.

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Speaker 1: Obviously, this crime are very serious, and I'm sure what's

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Speaker 1: happening on the compound has been very serious. But like

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Speaker 1: unto Samuel Bateman, he has a fashion choice that he

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Speaker 1: makes that he also makes all of the other men

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Speaker 1: in the group make, which is he wears a black

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Speaker 1: beanie and a black jacket, and when they're standing together,

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Speaker 1: it looks like a bunch of Andrew Tates. And it

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Speaker 1: is so fucking funny to me that that would be

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Speaker 1: the spiritual garb that you would choose is black beanie

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Speaker 1: and like cool guy, black jacket, and all of the

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Speaker 1: men look like that. So that's him. Interestingly, He used

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Speaker 1: to be a documentary filmmaker who covered other cults, including

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Speaker 1: the Rallims, which we interviewed someone from that a long

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Speaker 1: time ago. But yeah, it's classic cult stuff. It's classic.

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Speaker 1: He makes everybody sleep with him and allegedly marry him.

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Speaker 1: So apparently there are videos of members saying that he

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Speaker 1: could cure deadly diseases, he could make the moon disappear,

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Speaker 1: and he could turn leaves into living animals. He could

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Speaker 1: he could make leaves into living animals. Fifty six kids

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Speaker 1: living in their headquarters, all of them homeschooled of course.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, that's what's going on in the UK. Colds

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Speaker 1: are everywhere. A bunch of different people were arrested, so

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Speaker 1: hopefully justice comes through there.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I hope we can talk to a

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Speaker 3: survivor someday. That's wild. I mean, saying that you can

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Speaker 3: make the moon disappear is pretty intense because it's like

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Speaker 3: something you can see.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder what how I wonder how that works.

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Speaker 1: Like I wonder if it's like there's a meditation and

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Speaker 1: everyone is sort of like, oh, they don't see it.

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Speaker 1: Am I the only one who still sees the moon?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 1: Like I have not like, what does that look like?

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Speaker 3: Well, as we've seen with a lot of guests, some

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Speaker 3: gurus get very creative and we'll have people behind the scenes,

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Speaker 3: like constructing a universe in which it looks as though

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Speaker 3: something magical is happening. I mean, the leafs into an

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Speaker 3: animal I can imagine as a simple magic trick of sorts.

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Speaker 1: But the moon is the big set piece on Earth,

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Speaker 1: although it's small in the sky. So who you know? True?

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Speaker 3: True, Yeah, I'm curious more about that. And then to

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Speaker 3: just say a little bit more about Samuel Bateman's costume,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to call it a costume.

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Speaker 1: A costume's correct.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's wearing a white leather jacket that's maybe fifteen

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Speaker 3: times too small for hims.

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Speaker 1: Definitely just fall yeah, every day of his life.

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Speaker 3: And honestly, I had a similar jacket that I had

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Speaker 3: to get rid of because it's ruined forever. I don't

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Speaker 3: want to say anything controversial, but once you get into

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Speaker 3: a point in your life where you really don't respect women,

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Speaker 3: you are going to find men and jackets fifteen times

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Speaker 3: too small, and they are all going to be wearing

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Speaker 3: beanies with black shirt.

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Speaker 1: It's true, it's so true. It's interesting to me because

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Speaker 1: I feel like the cult leader figure used to wear

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Speaker 1: like robes and like white, and you know, the idea

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Speaker 1: was that they would look spiritual. And now there's this

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Speaker 1: like I mean, maybe it's not new, but it seems

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Speaker 1: new thing where it's like, actually, I'm just gonna look

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Speaker 1: like a cool guy. And that's like the whole brand

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Speaker 1: of the of the New Gurus.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like the California cults, of which there

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Speaker 3: are numerous, you know, they have the Charles Mansons and the.

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Speaker 1: That's true, but Charles Manson was doing a Jesus thing,

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Speaker 1: like I feel like a lot of in the seventies,

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Speaker 1: all those guys were doing like a Jesus thing, you know, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but they're a little bit rock and roll. No, that's true.

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Speaker 1: That's true.

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Speaker 3: Well, all fashion choices aside. Shall we get into it

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Speaker 3: with Nums. Let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Welcome Nomes Baseline to trust me, the famous Gnomes. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. I correct, Hi is correct.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited that you're here. Obviously we uh talk

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Speaker 1: outside of the podcast via my mother, but I'm excited

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Speaker 1: to get to actually ask you all of the questions

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Speaker 1: that we haven't talked about one on one ever. There's

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Speaker 1: so much I don't know about you. There's so much

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Speaker 1: the world doesn't know about you. So really grateful that

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Speaker 1: you're here. Can you tell us first, before Sam Ever

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Speaker 1: came into the picture, what was your family life like?

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Speaker 1: What was your lifestyle? You were regular FLDS kind of.

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Speaker 2: My dad was sent away, as thousands of men were

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Speaker 2: sent away around that time, so a lot of us

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Speaker 2: grew up without a dad, so we had care cakers.

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Speaker 1: Why was your dad sent away?

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Speaker 2: From what I remember, it was some really rare accusations

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Speaker 2: that Warren Jeff's had against him. He said, murder of

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Speaker 2: unborn children as well as unconfessed childhood sins. I never

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Speaker 2: really understood any of this, but hmm. And also because

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Speaker 2: I think because my mom had miscarriages and oh.

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Speaker 1: My gosh, and he blamed your dad. That's awful.

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Speaker 3: It sounds like he was trying to get rid of

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Speaker 3: competition population.

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Speaker 1: You see that a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of feel out that way now looking back.

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Speaker 2: He got rid of all the men he was threatened.

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Speaker 1: By, is what I feel like, right, anyone who maybe

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Speaker 1: would take one of his wives or like question and

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Speaker 1: question him. Yeah, totally. I didn't know that. See I'm

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Speaker 1: already learning new things. Okay, so what was your family

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Speaker 1: your immediate family, like, how many siblings you have.

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Speaker 2: My native family, I have eleven full siblings and eleven

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Speaker 2: half siblings.

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Speaker 1: Crazy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my dad had two lives around the age of

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Speaker 2: twelve thirteen I think I was thirteen. Then we were

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Speaker 2: all scattered and split and separated. When my dad was

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Speaker 2: sent away. Then not only were the moms separated, but

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Speaker 2: the siblings like me and my other shiplings were scattered

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Speaker 2: and separated into different homes.

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Speaker 1: What year was that around?

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Speaker 2: My dad was sent in twenty twelve, okay, and then

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Speaker 2: it was early twenty thirteen I think.

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Speaker 1: Do you know where they were sending them?

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Speaker 2: I learned later they were being sent out to repent.

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Speaker 2: My dad moved to Minnesota and just lived a bachelor

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Speaker 2: life out there.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Later some of my brothers were sent away at the

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Speaker 2: age of eleven and they went and lived with him.

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Speaker 1: Oh, and do you know if they were still believers

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Speaker 1: at that point, like they were trying to do the

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Speaker 1: repentance process that made up repentance process.

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Speaker 2: From what it seemed like they did at first, But

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Speaker 2: as the years went by then, my brothers just kind

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Speaker 2: of trailed off and started living a life outside.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense, But you and your sisters and

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Speaker 1: a lot of your family is still in Short Creek

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Speaker 1: then after.

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Speaker 2: Yes, although we were in different homes, so a lot

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Speaker 2: of my siblings I haven't lived with them since and

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Speaker 2: never really had that sibling relationship.

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Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, When I first visited Short Creek, it was

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Speaker 1: before my mom lived there, and it was a very

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Speaker 1: different town than it is now. And we've definitely talked

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Speaker 1: about this on the podcast, but it's been a long time.

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Speaker 1: Like when I visited, a lot of the homes were

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Speaker 1: still unfinished. There were like very few outsiders anywhere to

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Speaker 1: be seen, and it was just a lot more of

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Speaker 1: like a closed off community. Do you remember that era, Like,

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Speaker 1: what was it like then?

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Speaker 2: Oh, very very much. I do very well. Remember if

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Speaker 2: anyone from the outside came into town, we would hibernate

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Speaker 2: in the home. We'd go in the houses, turn off

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Speaker 2: all the lights, shed all the blinds so we wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be seen.

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Speaker 1: What was the thinking, like, what were you told was

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Speaker 1: the reason for that?

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Speaker 2: We were kind of under the impression and taught that

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Speaker 2: the world was out to get us. Especially the government.

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Speaker 2: So we were born and raised as the government being

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Speaker 2: in these monsters because they took the profit and it

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Speaker 2: was our fault that he's still in prison. Nont No,

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Speaker 2: is a really messed up mindset, But we grew up

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Speaker 2: thinking that they were always out to get us.

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Speaker 1: Well, I can see how that's both a tool of

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Speaker 1: manipulation potentially and also rooted in actual trauma in the community,

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Speaker 1: because there were the raids in nineteen fifty three where

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Speaker 1: the families were taken away from each other by the government, right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And then there was raids in two thousand and

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Speaker 2: eight and text us on another compound, and then another

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Speaker 2: rate in twenty sixteen, So we grew up with.

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Speaker 1: These right yeah. And it's like, you know, obviously Warren

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Speaker 1: Jeff's deserve to be in prison because of the crimes

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Speaker 1: that he was committing. But the result of it is

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Speaker 1: that a lot of kids are taken away from their

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Speaker 1: parents and families are separated, and that's like a very

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Speaker 1: traumatic thing. So it creates this distrust of basically like

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Speaker 1: the outside world in the community, right.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yes, even more. But there were times, I mean

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Speaker 2: growing up and you had suspicions of the outside world

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Speaker 2: and curiosities, but you never dared explore them.

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Speaker 3: So when a thought. I have two questions. When a

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Speaker 3: thought would come up about the outside world, how would

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Speaker 3: you push it out? Would you consciously be like I

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Speaker 3: can't think that, or did you just not even have them?

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Speaker 2: A lot of times we didn't really have them, but

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Speaker 2: when we did then it was like, yeah, push it out,

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Speaker 2: don't think about that. Even though there were times when

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Speaker 2: I would get with like other friends and relatives in

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Speaker 2: the group and when it was just like us girls talking,

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Speaker 2: then we would have conversations like if we grew up

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Speaker 2: in the outside world, we called them gentiles, where like

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Speaker 2: if we were born gentile, where would we be right now?

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Speaker 2: And we would talk about the different things that would

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Speaker 2: be me. I would always say like I would probably

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Speaker 2: be in the entertainment industry. I'd be an actor or

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Speaker 2: singer or an influencer somewhere in that industry.

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Speaker 1: And did you have any secret hobbies that you liked

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Speaker 1: that were forbidden, any movies you would watch secretly or

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Speaker 1: anything like that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, not until way later. So growing up as a

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Speaker 2: child in Lake also in my early teenage years then

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Speaker 2: it was very rigid. Everything was very strict, But in

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Speaker 2: my late teenage years sixteen and seventeen, that was when

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Speaker 2: I started to sneak out and download movies from the

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Speaker 2: college because it had free WiFi. We didn't have internet,

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Speaker 2: so I would download. But the movies were so innocent.

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Speaker 2: They were like Shirley Temple movies.

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Speaker 1: Anie Griffith, I love Cheery Temple.

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Speaker 2: I do remember the first cartoons. And it was Frozen too,

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Speaker 2: and it was me and my best friend Michel, and

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Speaker 2: we would learn the different songs in that.

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Speaker 1: Oh it was you and Michel. That's so cute.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like when you say you would go in and hide,

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Speaker 3: what does that look like? Outsiders come in and y'all

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Speaker 3: go and hide? Do you have to be quiet? Can

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Speaker 3: you not make any noise? Or can you read a book?

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Speaker 3: Or do you all just have to stare at each other?

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Speaker 3: Like what is that?

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Speaker 2: We would shut the blinds, turn off all the lights,

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Speaker 2: going to the living room and kneel in a circle and.

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Speaker 1: Pray, like pray for them to leave, Oh.

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Speaker 2: Pray for our safety.

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Speaker 1: Mostly that sounds like really like it would fill you

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Speaker 1: with a lot of anxiety all the time if you

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Speaker 1: have that much fear. Collectively as a community, it did

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Speaker 1: and also like as someone who was one of those

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Speaker 1: people driving around the town and being like, whol, what's

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Speaker 1: going on here? Like yeah, if I were on the

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Speaker 1: other end of that, I'd be like get out of here,

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Speaker 1: like stop being nosy about my you know, like we're

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Speaker 1: not animals. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, even now when I'll be with because I've made

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Speaker 2: a lot of friends outside now outside that didn't even

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Speaker 2: have my background. But when they see other FLDS people

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Speaker 2: and they pull out their phones and start video and

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Speaker 2: I'm like, guys, that's rude.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is rude.

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Speaker 2: I was one of them, Like they're scared.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So how old were you when? Well, first of all,

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Speaker 1: I guess Warren Jeff's gets arrested and then the community

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Speaker 1: is kind of leaderless for a while. What was your

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Speaker 1: conception of who the leader was now or what people

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Speaker 1: were supposed to do now that there wasn't a profit out.

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Speaker 2: Warren still controlled the people from prison. He banned all

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Speaker 2: marriages and babies being born, any type of relationship that

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Speaker 2: brought that forth, and he also started having the fathers

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Speaker 2: could not live with their family. Even the fathers that

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Speaker 2: had were still here with their families, then they had

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Speaker 2: to live out in a fathers shed.

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Speaker 1: We called it a father shed in the backyard. Oh

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Speaker 1: that is so mean.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, we see that so often, breaking up the

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Speaker 3: family unit and yeah yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then the whole United Order started, and then there

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Speaker 2: was a lot of separation between that members and non

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Speaker 2: members and people who are worthy people who are not,

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Speaker 2: a lot of boy homes and girl homes and a

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Speaker 2: lot of separation and splitting up.

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Speaker 1: Can you briefly explain what the United Order is, because

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Speaker 1: I think most people won't know what that it's.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, I don't still know what it is exactly.

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Speaker 1: It's confusing to me, Like I know what it is, too,

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Speaker 1: but I don't really know how to explain it.

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Speaker 2: I really, honestly don't know how to explain. It was

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Speaker 2: just basically another step into becoming like God or something.

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Speaker 2: And it was where everybody donated to the storehouse and

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Speaker 2: all the money, all food, everything, and then we got

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Speaker 2: all our supplies and what we needed from that storehouse,

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Speaker 2: which didn't really distribute enough because those some weeks where

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Speaker 2: we would only get potatoes and rice and just things

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Speaker 2: like that, and that was all we'd get for food.

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Speaker 2: And this went on for years.

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Speaker 1: If you were in the sort of the lower class,

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Speaker 1: because there was an upper class, right, but the families

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Speaker 1: were kind of categorized when we were the other and

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Speaker 1: like the sort of lower class within the order or hierarchy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're like often starving. I remember talking to Rest in

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Speaker 1: Peace Alyssa Byeline about that years ago and how hungry

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Speaker 1: her family was at the time.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I remember going three years one set of clothing.

354
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Speaker 2: I had to wash every single night, Oh my gosh,

355
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Speaker 2: living off very little food, whereas like some of the

356
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Speaker 2: people that were better, they were in abundance, they had

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Speaker 2: everything they needed. We would see this too, but there was.

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Speaker 2: It was kind of strange because there wasn't supposed to

359
00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,760
Speaker 2: be these like levels of classification, but there definitely was.

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Speaker 2: And for me, I was one of the slaves of

361
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Speaker 2: the cult. I would say, like my schedules were literally

362
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Speaker 2: getting up at three in the morning and going to

363
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Speaker 2: the storehouse and working until eight feeling orders for different people. Yeah,

364
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Speaker 2: we couldn't eat the food that we were feeling.

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Speaker 1: These orders for, oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: And we would work till eight. Then I would go

367
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Speaker 2: to school till around noonish, and some days then I

368
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Speaker 2: was like put into these these sewing classes, and and

369
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Speaker 2: I would sew for until from noon until six some days,

370
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Speaker 2: and it was very scheduled, very rigid.

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Speaker 1: Sounds exhausting. And also you're hungry this whole time, like

372
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Speaker 1: you wouldn't even have time to question because your time

373
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Speaker 1: is just so completely consumed, you're so exhausted.

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Speaker 2: I think that was intentional. Yeah, to keep everybody so

375
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Speaker 2: so busy that they didn't have a chance to logically

376
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Speaker 2: think about anything or question anything.

377
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Speaker 1: And are these orders coming from Warren still at that

378
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Speaker 1: point at.

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Speaker 2: That point, yes, they were coming from him as well

380
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Speaker 2: as the bishop at the time, Lyle Jeffs his brother.

381
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Speaker 1: That's right Lyle.

382
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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of two to buy two his

383
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Speaker 3: named Lyle, who come out as not good people.

384
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Speaker 1: I don't know Lyle. There's some good Lile. I'm sure

385
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Speaker 1: there's a good Lyle, but there's some bad lives.

386
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Speaker 2: Okay with the name Warren.

387
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,920
Speaker 3: Yes, thank you, it's just what what were.

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Speaker 1: Your thoughts about Warren Jefs at the time growing up? Yeah?

389
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:04,399
Speaker 2: He was like God. Anything he said you had to

390
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Speaker 2: do it, no questions asked, no thought against him. He

391
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 2: was literally I remember even in his trainings that he

392
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:13,720
Speaker 2: would give then he would talk about the prophet is

393
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Speaker 2: God to this people, and we grew up with that,

394
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Speaker 2: and there was also trainings about it was our fault

395
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Speaker 2: that he was in prison. Oh and even the people

396
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 2: that knew about the crimes he'd committed didn't believe it.

397
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Speaker 2: I personally didn't know until years later when I was

398
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,639
Speaker 2: sitting in prison and the other inmates talked about it,

399
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,359
Speaker 2: and that was when I first knew the parallels between

400
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 2: him and Sam.

401
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,360
Speaker 1: Which we will get to. Yeah, we're going to get

402
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,200
Speaker 1: into that. Oh my gosh. Yeah, But until that point,

403
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,919
Speaker 1: you thought it was like did you think it was persecution?

404
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,560
Speaker 2: But yes, we all were like taught this was persecuting,

405
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 2: and therefore he's more righteous because he's like this martyr

406
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 2: because he's being persecuted for his religion. Classic, I also

407
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 2: have to express there was a lot of pressure on

408
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:09,159
Speaker 2: us as well, because I grew up thinking it was

409
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,640
Speaker 2: our fault that he was in prison, because that's what

410
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:13,680
Speaker 2: we were taught.

411
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,880
Speaker 1: Like, you just believed that as a community, you all

412
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 1: weren't righteous enough and that was the punishment.

413
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, we weren't righteous enough. And I was born and

414
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 2: raised under this condemnation. It was directly told you were

415
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 2: under condemnation because of all these evil sins, which aren't

416
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 2: really good sins at all. Like I never understood it.

417
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like what were the sins? Even like we were

418
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,880
Speaker 1: your biggest The movie you were watching later on when

419
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 1: you were rebelling was like a children's vintage movie, you know, Like, so,

420
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,719
Speaker 1: what were these alleged sins?

421
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 2: The alleged sins would be literally anything of making up

422
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 2: stories because I wrote tons of novels on me. I

423
00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 2: didn't know they were novels at the time. We made

424
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 2: up stories, me and my best friend. We would draw

425
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 2: pictures a lot too. It was totally and it'sent just

426
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 2: to get out of the get out of all the

427
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 2: pain that was going on inside. So we would make these.

428
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 2: We would make up some really hilarious characters and wrote

429
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 2: a lot of stories about them. They were they're still

430
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 2: quite comical even if you can back on it.

431
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 1: Now, I want to see. Yeah.

432
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we would get into a lot of trouble

433
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 2: for that and get our notebooks and aren't taken away

434
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 2: and later banned from us.

435
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 1: And it was just because it wasn't about the church. Basically, yes, wow.

436
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:42,400
Speaker 2: All this stuff was not accepted in the religion because

437
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,440
Speaker 2: the only things we could read and write about were scriptures.

438
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, just sounds so boring. Like obviously it's

439
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 1: like horrific, like a horrific level of control and oppression

440
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,159
Speaker 1: and all of those things. But also it just sounds

441
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,439
Speaker 1: so boring to not be able to do anything outside

442
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: of the church.

443
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 2: Strangely, it was to do things like this like make

444
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 2: up skits and and write made up little novels and stuff.

445
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 2: It was more of like a challenge because and we

446
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 2: wouldn't even do it because it was fun. It was

447
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,400
Speaker 2: a lot of times we did it because we knew

448
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 2: it was wrong. In our mind. We were like, how

449
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 2: can we bend the rules as much as we can?

450
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 2: We were getting in trouble and without being cast out.

451
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: That's the cutest rebellion.

452
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

453
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was about to say, what were they about?

454
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:37,880
Speaker 3: But you know what, we have too much to cover.

455
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,120
Speaker 3: I'll just have to read them for themselves.

456
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 2: We really should. We've talked about it, like how we

457
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 2: should go back and take those ideas and actually publish them.

458
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 2: They were very comic.

459
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: That's a good idea, yes, please, Okay, So basically, life

460
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 1: is hell in the town for a while and when

461
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 1: my mom moved to the town. Did you know who

462
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 1: she was before you met her? Like, what was your

463
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 1: relationship to her in the beginning.

464
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 2: Actually, the first time I met her was in twenty

465
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 2: twenty one, and it was when Sam actually introduced her

466
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,199
Speaker 2: and told her to his little faction. But before that,

467
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 2: I never even heard of her, never knew her, Which

468
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 2: is kind of interesting. How Sam did go after the

469
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 2: people who were the most secluded.

470
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 1: In the Coreah, yeah, yeah, and I was.

471
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,640
Speaker 2: One of them. I didn't know anything about her, never

472
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 2: seen or heard about her.

473
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: Okay, so you were already with Sam, So then can

474
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 1: you tell us about Sam's transition into sort of saying

475
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,360
Speaker 1: that he is so for the folks who haven't watched

476
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 1: the docuseries yet, which seems crazy at this point because

477
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:55,239
Speaker 1: the whole world has wad. Yeah, but Sam Bateman was

478
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 1: this new guy in town who basically was like actually

479
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: worn and is dead I guess, and is speaking through me.

480
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of kind of interesting how he came

481
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 2: into power. But with me, I don't really know a lot,

482
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 2: I mean, except what I've seen and read. And then

483
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 2: he grew up here and he grew up a f

484
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 2: LDS and he was kind of what's the word dumb

485
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 2: and kind of like an underdog type of person.

486
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was.

487
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 3: I mean, the the doc so clearly demonstrates how this

488
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 3: like very schlubby man do he's dorky, Yeah, leaned and

489
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 3: burying a psychopath and it's like, oh, capitalism, Hello, that's

490
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 3: that's how it goes.

491
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: Yea Wait, I just have to know about like the

492
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: mentality of like you and your family. When this man

493
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 1: starts saying I'm the prophet guy, it's not warrant like,

494
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 1: don't worry about Warren anymore. It's me, Like, what was that? Like?

495
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 2: So I was the only one in my family that

496
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 2: was recruited into that. Okay, my family actually went into

497
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 2: a different faction of the FLDS, except.

498
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 1: One another offshoot. Yes, oh I didn't realize that.

499
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I can explain the FLDS right now. They're

500
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 2: very fragmented, and they have this analogy that I draw

501
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 2: up about them. It's like this little circle and inside

502
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 2: the circle, then it's split into four different factions and

503
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 2: they're all opposing each other. They're all claiming that Wrange

504
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 2: Jazz is still the prophet. Some of them are claiming

505
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: that he is translated or dead like Sam did, and

506
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 2: others are claiming that he's speaking to them from prison.

507
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 2: It's pretty confusing in the FLDS even now. What's strange

508
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 2: is these these factions are actually opposing each other. So

509
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 2: if you talk to someone from a different faction, like

510
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 2: my mom about the Sam situation, then she's very against it,

511
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 2: has all the wrong things about Sam. When Warren Jeffs

512
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 2: is just the same and so is the successor guy

513
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 2: that's over that section of faction.

514
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: Right, is that the this is very in the weed. Sorry,

515
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 1: but I know that in the town. There's like the

516
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 1: side of town that my mom lives on, and then

517
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: when you cross the highway there's like another offshoot that

518
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: lives on the other side. Oh no, that's a different.

519
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 2: That's a whole different LDS faction thing. That's not even

520
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 2: part of the FLDS. But they don't plug me. It's

521
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 2: another offshoot of the LDS church but not the FLDS.

522
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, wow, there's so many we call him.

523
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 3: How were do you remember your first meeting of Sam?

524
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 2: Yes, I think I was nineteen at the time, might

525
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 2: have been twenty. I was around that age. He had

526
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 2: been coming out and talking to my caretaker at the

527
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: time for over a year, and then one day then

528
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 2: my caretaker, which was Liddell, he introduced me to him.

529
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 2: And at the time he had only two wives, the

530
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 2: first two for Maroni, and he introduced me to Sam,

531
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 2: and then after that then he kept wanting me to

532
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: go and see him and talk to him. My first

533
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 2: impressions were not very good. I was like, he's fat,

534
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 2: he's ugly, he's weird, and then I would kind of

535
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 2: for a long time, I was very defiant against him,

536
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 2: like who do you think you are? But within a

537
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 2: week after that first meeting, then Sam called me and

538
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 2: was told me I belonged to him and he's like

539
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 2: God told me to tell you this, and if you

540
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 2: deny it, then you are denying God. And that was

541
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 2: when the pressure started. And for over a year he

542
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 2: kept trying to get at me. He would send me

543
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 2: messages telling me how bad I was, and then only

544
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 2: to disappear and then reappear with these declar of love

545
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 2: and it was very confusing, and then he started threatening me,

546
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 2: don't tell your family, don't tell anyone. So the only

547
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 2: people who knew were Liddell, my caretaker at the time,

548
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 2: which had a lot of influence over me because he

549
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 2: was like the father figure of my life. Right, I

550
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 2: confided in and I trusted in at that time.

551
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: And even though you were nineteen, that was normal in

552
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: the community to still have a caretaker like a father figure.

553
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 2: Oh yes, I mean I have siblings that are still

554
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 2: in that are over thirty and they still have a caretaker.

555
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: Wow.

556
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 2: And they're still treated as a child. Basically, they're still

557
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 2: in the juvenile.

558
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 1: Section of the cult because they're not married, right, because

559
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: their husband becomes their new caretaker.

560
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

561
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so crazy, and they act like I mean,

562
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 4: if I were to talk to one of my sisters

563
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 4: sits in my thirties, I would be talking to a

564
00:30:59,200 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 4: fourteen year old.

565
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 2: That's her mentality.

566
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: Wow. Wow.

567
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 3: It's so interesting how he was able to kind of

568
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 3: trauma bond with you without you even really liking him,

569
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 3: Like the intermittent good messages with the bad messages was

570
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 3: still enough to like cause some dissonance.

571
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 2: It was, you know, I was still defiant until until

572
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 2: after I was taken to Lincoln. It took over a

573
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: year for him to convince me, and even then it

574
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 2: wasn't really a choice.

575
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: I was gonna say by the time, Yeah, I was

576
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: gonna say, isn't it like whose choice? Actually?

577
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 3: Is it?

578
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: Like? Because Ladell was your caretaker, was he technically allowed

579
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: to make that decision for you or you did have to?

580
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 2: Like?

581
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: How did it work?

582
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 2: He technically was? And he in the end then they

583
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 2: pretty much commanded me or demanded me that this is

584
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 2: what you're going to do.

585
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: What was that like?

586
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 2: So during the time he was putting a lot of

587
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 2: pressure on me, then he was getting more and more wives,

588
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 2: and a lot of the minor girls even were with

589
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 2: him before me, and then he started using them to

590
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: recruit me. And he would have these fifteen year olds

591
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 2: and these nine year olds calling me and damning me,

592
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 2: saying really horrible things, telling me how bad and wicked

593
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 2: I was texting me constantly. He used them to recruit

594
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 2: me after he broke that.

595
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: So basically he put the fear that you were basically

596
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 1: facing eternal damnation if you didn't become one of his wives.

597
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 2: Yes, and then he started to threaten my family. How

598
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 2: so I remember him talking things about my mom, what

599
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: was going to happen to her? And it would be

600
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 2: my fault if I didn't go to him.

601
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

602
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 2: Well, that was when I couldn't take it. Then he

603
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: started threatening to take my younger sister, and that was

604
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 2: a lot.

605
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: It's exactly the quality you want in a husband, and

606
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: someone who's threatening your family. Yeah, it was just.

607
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 2: Kind of it's kind of ironic, but I yeah, my

608
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 2: little sister wasn't involved, and that was a lot to

609
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,959
Speaker 2: keep her out of that. So toward the end, it

610
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 2: was the end of twenty twenty was when one night

611
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 2: Sam and Lud talked to me for six hours.

612
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:26,719
Speaker 1: Wow.

613
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 2: And then afterwards Lud told me how he had seen

614
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 2: me reject God this many times or whatever. And that

615
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 2: was when I caved and I said whatever, I'll go.

616
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, and he immediately immediately jumped on that

617
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 2: and then was saying, this is something you're choosing, right,

618
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: you chose this, this is something you want, You are

619
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 2: choosing this. He did not stop once. He drove me

620
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 2: all the way to Lincoln, Nebraska because Sam was living

621
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 2: in Lincoln, Nebraska at the time, and handed me off.

622
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

623
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 2: And then he was rewarded with another woman.

624
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 1: Wow, did you have dreams of falling in love? With someone.

625
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: Prior to this, there was a boy that I started

626
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 2: like hitting on and he was actually in the centennial

627
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 2: group that wasn't even FLDS, didn't even grow up on FLDS.

628
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 2: And we started getting a little bit close, and he

629
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 2: started telling me a little bit about the outside world more,

630
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 2: even though he's kind of in a situation, but it

631
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 2: was he was more exposed than me. It was during

632
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 2: the time I worked out the airport and his dad

633
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 2: had a plane out there, and I started getting like

634
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 2: curious more and that was the only thing. But before

635
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 2: that then it wasn't really romantic thoughts because I didn't

636
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 2: know how to have those, didn't even think I had

637
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 2: a choice in that matter.

638
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, because you've been told this whole time that

639
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: marriages are forbidden, and I have to imagine that there

640
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: would be a lot of conflicting feelings because as far

641
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: as you've always been told, you're not supposed to get married,

642
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: and now this guy's saying, no, you have to get married,

643
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: and if you don't get married, actually you're sinning, and like, wow,

644
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 1: I just like the amount of cognitive dissonance and confusing

645
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: thoughts was that really intense?

646
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 2: It was? It was very intense. I felt like I

647
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 2: was being shredded in four different directions because there was

648
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 2: my mom going into another faction, that was my caretaker

649
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 2: pushing me into this, and then none of them were

650
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 2: anything that I actually wanted.

651
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: Mmmm, oh my god.

652
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 2: And then I had my best friends that were leaving

653
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 2: all together.

654
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,839
Speaker 1: Oh really, and like who they were?

655
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 2: Minutes and friends?

656
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: Okay, So it was a.

657
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 2: Very confusing time and I didn't know what was right,

658
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 2: what was wrong, and if it even mattered at that point.

659
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: Right, Oh my gosh. So they wear you down basically,

660
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: like break you down for six hours and immediately ship

661
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 1: you off. I mean, what the heck like? So you

662
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: arrived there and then what is your life like? Suddenly

663
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: your Sam's wife.

664
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 2: It was really creepy the whole There was no ceremony,

665
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 2: there was literally nothing. What happened is I was taken

666
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 2: in there. It was four o'clock in the morning by

667
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 2: the time we got there, and the three men were there,

668
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 2: and they basically had me kneel down in a circle

669
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 2: with them, and then they put their hands on me

670
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 2: and stuff and chanted some things up to God. And

671
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 2: therefore I was Sam's wife. Wow, and he could do

672
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: whatever he wanted to me, what year was that late

673
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,240
Speaker 2: twenty twenty November of twenty twenty.

674
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: But you guys then came back to live in Short

675
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: Creek at some point.

676
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And in twenty twenty one, after he had us

677
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 2: all compliant and broken down, was when he finally he

678
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 2: moved us all back down to the border of Arizona

679
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: in Utah and introduced us to Christine and Toga.

680
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: Can I ask what was the process of breaking you down?

681
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: Like like, and you don't have to get into too

682
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: much detail or anything traumatic or anything. I'm just was

683
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: there were there like specific you know, tactics that you

684
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 1: can think of now that he would use.

685
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 2: They they're very explicit, Okay, they weren't like for me

686
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 2: trying to think of a way to explain it without

687
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 2: going to deep into it because it was very traumatic ride.

688
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 2: At first, I was very defiant and he would like

689
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: several times he wanted me to get up in the

690
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 2: family classes and bear my testimony, and I would tell

691
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 2: him like, I don't have one, I don't want to

692
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 2: talk about it, and I'm here because you're forced me

693
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 2: to be here. And then one day he just came

694
00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: on top of me and I knew nothing about anything sexual,

695
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 2: and I spent the rest of the day crying in

696
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 2: the bathroom, feeling very dirty, and then not caring. And

697
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,280
Speaker 2: so there was quite a few months where I didn't

698
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: care anymore. And I even remember telling him I'm just

699
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 2: a rag on the end of a stick. Do with

700
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,439
Speaker 2: me what you will, and he would with a lot

701
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 2: of things. And then so after the not caring, then

702
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 2: you get Stockholm syndrome because there's no way to escape

703
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 2: escape it. But there was quite a few months where

704
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 2: I didn't care.

705
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, and I.

706
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 2: Didn't care if I lived or I just existed.

707
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: The abuse that you and Dirt is so that's it's unbearable, yeah, yeah,

708
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: and it makes it puts into context, Like you know,

709
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: watching so I've only known you since you came out

710
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: of jail, and I met you right when you came

711
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: out of jail, which I can't wait to talk about.

712
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 1: But so for me, you know, watching the series, I

713
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: never saw you in that context. I never saw you

714
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: with Sam, and it's like you're a different person, you know,

715
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: like I know you to be the fiery, uh you know,

716
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: like strong headed person that you are. And then I

717
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 1: see you with Sam and it's like, yeah, it's like

718
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 1: it's just a completely different person. And it puts into

719
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: context how you got there and the way that he

720
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: abused you into becoming that compliant you know, and you know,

721
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: I don't want you to ever share anything that you know.

722
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 1: We can we can take that out also if you

723
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: if you want.

724
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 2: But I'm just it's okay, But that's that touches the

725
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 2: iceberg of what happened. Yeah, yeah, oh my gosh, it

726
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 2: is okay, that's in there, but yeah, okay. He was

727
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 2: abusive and not in front of the cameras though, and

728
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 2: our livestores threat and in the end it just got

729
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 2: more and more intense.

730
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: Always escalate. Wow, yeah, the one you think it can't.

731
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 2: In the documentary, it doesn't go over the blood atonements

732
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 2: that he started getting into and the threats and he

733
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 2: would he started planning Liddell's and Moroni's debts and how

734
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 2: he was going to kill them. I remember this, I

735
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 2: don't He started training moroni'ed daughters in this.

736
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: Can I contextualize blood atonement for one second? So the

737
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: early leaders of the original LDS Mormon Church, there was

738
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: a doctrine called blood atonement, which was basically the idea

739
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 1: that there were certain sins that were so serious that

740
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:42,839
Speaker 1: the only way to atone for them was to have

741
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: your blood spilled.

742
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they had to be spilled by the.

743
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: Prophet, right right, right, So some offshoot prophets quote unquote

744
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: have like latched onto this doctrine and used it as justification.

745
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: There have been other sects where people actually were killed

746
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: on or the with the justification of like it was

747
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: necessary because of blood atonement. So that's what blood atomet is.

748
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 3: So people were just thinking they were letting out some

749
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 3: blood and they accidentally die.

750
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 2: No, they were straight up murder.

751
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, okay, okay, but that's it's like the nice

752
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: way of putting it. Oh well, we just have to

753
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 1: spill their blood, you know, but it means we're they

754
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: have to be killed. So you know, in the Mormon church,

755
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: that hasn't actually in the mainstream Mormon church, that's not

756
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 1: actually been a thing. It was just sort of a

757
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: doctrine that some old guy had put in there. But

758
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 1: in some certain like extreme offshoots, it's been utilized. Yes,

759
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: so he starts talking about blood atonement, yes, and why

760
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 1: that's a.

761
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 2: Very interesting question, because even I never understood why. He

762
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 2: did tell us that it had to do with him,

763
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 2: had to do with the other men lusting after his women,

764
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 2: and it was it was a complete jealousy tactic. Yeah,

765
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 2: but he was getting very severe in it. And then

766
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 2: he started saying things to us about if we weren't

767
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 2: perfectly compliant and obedient, then one day we would be

768
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 2: crawling on our hands and knees to him and begging

769
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 2: him to spill our blood.

770
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:16,760
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

771
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,439
Speaker 2: It was getting very intense. Toward the end. He even

772
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 2: had he had me get this life insurance policy that

773
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 2: was one point five million, and if I were to die,

774
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 2: he would collect that money. So consciously, I didn't think

775
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 2: about this until prison, and I was like everything was

776
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 2: coming down, and I'm like, oh my god, my life

777
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 2: was at risk. And I was just doing everything he

778
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 2: wanted and I was trying so hard to live up

779
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 2: to the expectations.

780
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: Wow, the pressure, and here.

781
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 2: He was I'm literally planning my death. It was crazy.

782
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: Oh my god. And he's like openly talking about the men.

783
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 1: I remember hearing from my mom at the time, like

784
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 1: he is talking about blood, Atonema and Morona, Like he

785
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 1: is talking more and more and more about basically killing Rone.

786
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 2: Yes, he would openly talk about it, about Morona and Liddell.

787
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: That is so scary. That is so scary.

788
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 3: It's giving me the chills. Even now, it's like, even

789
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 3: though you're safe, it's just still it's like whoa, whoa.

790
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 2: It is something that it still scares me when I

791
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 2: think about the threats. I was under the pressure and

792
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 2: the only way to survive was get closer to it.

793
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I wish they had included that in

794
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 1: the Dock. I understand why they didn't because it was

795
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: such limited time. There's so much to cover, Like there's

796
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 1: so much information for the.

797
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 2: One hundred Yeah, they had three hundred hours of footage. Yeah,

798
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 2: and they took cram it all in a very accurate storyline.

799
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:54,760
Speaker 2: It does barely touch.

800
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: That I know what happened, it's true, but to get

801
00:43:58,080 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: it all.

802
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 2: In four hours is honestly incredible.

803
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: I know, I know. I watched the first episode with

804
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: I made some friends come over to watch it with

805
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 1: me because I was like, I can't watch this by myself.

806
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: And after the first episode we were like, whoa, that

807
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 1: was so much information, Like it's so much like they

808
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 1: managed to jam pack so much on there, but yeah,

809
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 1: so like I understand why why it was not included,

810
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 1: but also like happening in the background of all of

811
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 1: this is there are threats being made actively against people's lives.

812
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,439
Speaker 1: So of course then you're gonna be like whatever you say,

813
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: dear prophet, ha ha, you're yeah, because you're really You're.

814
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 3: A really smart girl, so you just kind of turned

815
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 3: it on.

816
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 2: And the interesting thing was is, at the time, I

817
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 2: didn't consciously think a lot of this stuff. It was

818
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 2: mostly subconscious and just observing and not daring to stand

819
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 2: up and say anything. That Actually, one of the reasons

820
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 2: why I even started having suspicions about Christine and Tolga

821
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 2: was actually Michel. She could didn't not tell me because

822
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 2: we were so close before, and even though I was

823
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 2: so controlled by Sam, I went to mckel and expressed

824
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 2: my concerns because he had blown me off and didn't

825
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 2: believe me. So I went to mckel and I said

826
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 2: something to Michel, and Michel was like, yeah, they're not

827
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 2: They're not who you think they are. But I was

828
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 2: too terrified to tell Sam.

829
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: People might not know who Michel is yet because she

830
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: wasn't in the dark eye.

831
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 2: Oh, I'll explain. Yeah, Michel was a cousin that I

832
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: grew up. She's Liddell's youngest sister and she grew up

833
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 2: from the ages of ten till now. Then we have

834
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 2: been very close friends, very we were and tell the

835
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 2: Sam thing. Then Sam kind of pitted us against each

836
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 2: other for those years in the same situation. Then she

837
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 2: was treated very horribly because she was actually one of

838
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 2: the one of the first people that came out to

839
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 2: the FBI. It wasn't discussed in documentary because she wasn't

840
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 2: ready to talk about it at the time of the filming.

841
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 2: But she's coming out more and more now. But she

842
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 2: she stepped forward before Julia even. Yeah, and she was

843
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 2: helping Christine. She was getting a lot of inside information

844
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 2: and even a lot a lot more than even what

845
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:19,240
Speaker 2: Julia was doing.

846
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, Michel was a huge part of the story.

847
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 2: Because she was one of the wives.

848
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

849
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 3: Oh, she was one of the whitesh my twenty second wife.

850
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, how many wives did he get to?

851
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 3: Was twenty twenty five?

852
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I'm excited that Michel is starting to tell

853
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 1: her experience.

854
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 2: Because she's spent under a lot of pressure from local

855
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 2: people that kind of had silenced her until now. Then

856
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 2: she's finally coming out and talking about it, which I'm

857
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 2: so proud of her.

858
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: Me too, And we're going to have her on and

859
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: we're going to make her sing a song and you

860
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: should too if you want, because you both have such

861
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 1: beautiful voices.

862
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 3: But anyway, not just I like when we were when

863
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 3: we're down there life Okay, yeah, you don't have to

864
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 3: do it on zoomah Live Live.

865
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 2: But yeah, so this is that's who Michael is. We

866
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 2: were very close. We grew up best friends and we're

867
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:15,760
Speaker 2: best friends again, and I just love her so much. Anyway,

868
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 2: back to the story. She was the first one that

869
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 2: told me, actually admitted to me that yes, Christine is

870
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 2: not who you think she is. But I was too

871
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 2: scared to tell Sam at that point.

872
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 3: Well you had told Sam and he was like, shut up,

873
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 3: I know what, Yeah, I know what to trust and

874
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 3: if you trust me and I trust them, so you're

875
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 3: wrong and you're like okay, then uh yeah.

876
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 2: It was like God has told me to trust them,

877
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 2: and so if you're not trusting me to trust them,

878
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 2: then will happen?

879
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 1: And pure narcism, yeah, because he just wanted to keep

880
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: getting fill to God.

881
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 2: He was talking to in that moment good first ye

882
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 2: honestly before that where she's downright blood.

883
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 3: As an outsider looking and watching this documentary, I was like,

884
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 3: because I didn't know the end, I didn't know you

885
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 3: know when I saw you sit down, Well, I don't

886
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 3: know if I was going to get that away with

887
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 3: the people who hadn't watched it yet, but I was like, what.

888
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 3: I couldn't believe it because you seemed like the one

889
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:26,919
Speaker 3: most in love with him, that believed him the most.

890
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 3: Of course, I know this is not to be true now,

891
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 3: but I was like, Oh, I think she really believes

892
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:33,240
Speaker 3: what he's saying.

893
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 2: I did. That's the sad part. I look back on

894
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 2: that and it's it's kind of strange because I don't

895
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 2: know how to remember what was going on as if

896
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 2: I'm experienced, I see it I still in my mind,

897
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 2: and even at the time, I was so disassociated and

898
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 2: so numb that in my memories are in third person.

899
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 1: Oh wow, whoa, Yeah, So what was it about my

900
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 1: mom and that made you guys think she shouldn't be trusted?

901
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 2: It was only me that started thinking that, Yeah, just

902
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 2: little little hints that happened. For instance, when there was

903
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 2: a time that they came over and she had had

904
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 2: us all distracted in the living room with Sam, and

905
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 2: it was I think it was that time where he

906
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 2: was telling her about all these bizarre goals that he.

907
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:33,399
Speaker 1: Had, oh like with the Queen, he had the marble.

908
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 2: Palace and all this stuff. They were crazy. But it

909
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:43,359
Speaker 2: was during that time that I stepped outside with some

910
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 2: of the kids, if the tiny children, and Tolgo was

911
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 2: standing there with this drone and he was kind of

912
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 2: videoing and droning the blue house in the greenhouse m

913
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,439
Speaker 2: and those were my first curiosities, like what's he doing?

914
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,840
Speaker 2: Why is he doing this so weird? Like Sam didn't

915
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 2: know anything about it, obviously because he would have said something.

916
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 2: So that was the first time I started happened questions.

917
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:15,760
Speaker 2: And then there was several other little things that happened.

918
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 2: For instance, though at the time in Flagstaff after his

919
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 2: first arrest, and Christine was talking to Toga off camera,

920
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 2: she said something about I really need a new phone.

921
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:32,840
Speaker 2: And then when the raid happened, the FBI took her

922
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:38,280
Speaker 2: new phone, and she still had her other phone because

923
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 2: they came in and took everybody's phones, and then they

924
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 2: took her new one, and in my mind, I was thinking,

925
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:46,799
Speaker 2: her new one doesn't have anything.

926
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,439
Speaker 1: On it, right, and if folk, again, if folks haven't

927
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 1: watched the docu series What Happened in a Nutshell? My

928
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 1: mom and my stepdad earned the trust of Sam and

929
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 1: began filming, and then I played on his ego, played

930
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:02,760
Speaker 1: on his ego.

931
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:05,840
Speaker 3: Well, he was a really good mountain climber runner.

932
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 2: Actually, Like I'm gonna like toot my horn right here,

933
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 2: like some of those videos that I was taking were you,

934
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 2: I guess and I didn't even know what was happening.

935
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 2: Happened was during that situation. Then now looking back and

936
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 2: talking to Kristin and Toga, then they've told me they

937
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 2: tried so hard to get me alone because they knew

938
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 2: if Sam was targeting me, then I would be the

939
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 2: one that I don't know. Then they felt like she's

940
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:41,359
Speaker 2: the one that we would need to get on our side,

941
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 2: you know. Anyway, So they were trying to get me alone,

942
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 2: which Sam never allowed me to be alone. Even when

943
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 2: I would go out, then he would always have at

944
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,919
Speaker 2: least four other girls and women like we always had

945
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 2: to be in this group. Wow, we were spies and

946
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 2: like always spine on each other, right, Like he kept

947
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:04,359
Speaker 2: us in this tight knit group anyway, So they were

948
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 2: trying to get me alone, and Toga found out that

949
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 2: I loved cameras and I was very fascinated with them,

950
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 2: and so he gave me some tips on cameras and

951
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 2: he said something about like do you want to help

952
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 2: me video this? So I was like, yeah, So the

953
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 2: parts where togas InVID in the camera on those highking scenes,

954
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:25,359
Speaker 2: then that was me.

955
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:29,439
Speaker 1: I was wondering about that one has both of them

956
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 1: in it.

957
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 3: Then yes, the camera, Oh cool, you did an incredible job.

958
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 2: But it didn't work. Yeah, their plan to get me

959
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 2: alone did not work because this is a time. This

960
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 2: is also another thing that I feel like Sam new,

961
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 2: but I mean he knew that once I did get

962
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 2: alone and start thinking for myself, then I would have

963
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 2: come out of it, right, because I remember that night

964
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 2: telling him about like Tola told me this and that

965
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 2: the older about the cameras, and I was like so excited,

966
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 2: and I was like, he said he would teach me

967
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 2: how to take pictures and these professional pictures and video

968
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 2: more professionally, And Sam said, no, that is not gonna happen.

969
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,399
Speaker 1: Well, because God forbid you get your own interests and

970
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 1: start to think for yourself or think about anything besides him. Yeah,

971
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 1: we're gonna leave part one with Gnomes right there, and

972
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 1: if you come back next week you will get to

973
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 1: hear part two. There is so much to talk about.

974
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: I Yeah, she has gone through so much and I

975
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 1: am just so impressed by her. Yeah.

976
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 3: Part two is really really good. Can't wait for y'all

977
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 3: to hear it. If you like part one, go Ratos

978
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 3: five stars wherever you get your podcasts and leave us

979
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 3: a nice little message. If you don't like it, then

980
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 3: just don't do anything. It's fine, Just stay away from all.

981
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:51,359
Speaker 3: You don't need to say anything at all. You don't

982
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,760
Speaker 3: need to say anything at all, And as always, remember

983
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 3: to follow your gut, watch out for red flags, and.

984
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:05,280
Speaker 1: Never ever trust me by. This has been an exactly

985
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 1: right production hosted by me Lola Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth.

986
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is G. Holly. This episode was mixed

987
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:13,240
Speaker 1: by John Bradley.

988
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,720
Speaker 3: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

989
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 3: is Patrick Kuttner.

990
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber.

991
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 3: Church trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark,

992
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 3: and Danielle Kramer.

993
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast

994
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: or on TikTok at trust Me coult Podcast.

995
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 3: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief our manipulation,

996
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 3: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

997
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 1: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

998
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.