WEBVTT - Tech and the UK Riots 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.840 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:06.880 It's ready. Are you hey there, Text Stuff listeners, This 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:09.200 is Jonathan Strickland and I have got a request for 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:11.440 all of you. Now, Chris and I have decided that 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:13.720 we're going to try and experiment. We're doing our first 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:17.400 crowd sourced episode of tech Stuff and we want to 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:21.480 know what your pick is for the worst video game 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:25.600 of all time. Now, nominations you can. You can make 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:28.479 one nomination. You nominate one game, and you need to 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:30.639 tell us the name of the game and the platform 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:32.839 it was on. And it could be any platform. It 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:37.000 could be an arcade game, it could be a PC, Mac, Xbox, 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:41.360 PS three, Nintendo handheld console. It can be web based 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:43.839 if you like. But just you let us know what 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:45.560 the platform is so we can make sure we count 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:49.440 that as the votes. So you can nominate your game 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:53.920 either through email, which is tech Stuff at how stuff 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:58.320 works dot com, or you can nominate through Twitter or Facebook. 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:01.560 And we're gonna put a cut off date on this. 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:03.640 I want to have the episode go up by the 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:07.720 end of September of eleven. So let's say you need 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:12.960 to get your nominations in by September eleven, So if 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:15.880 you get those nominations into us, we will make sure 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:19.240 we include those in the process and we will have 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:22.640 an episode where we give you the worst video games 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.800 of all time based upon the votes of our listeners. 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:30.840 Thanks a lot. Can't wait to hear from you. Get 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:34.000 in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how stuff 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:43.280 works dot com. Hello, everyone, welcome to tex Stuff. My 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:45.319 name is Chris Poulette and I am an editor at 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:47.880 how stuff works dot com sitting in a a cross from 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:51.400 me as always a senior writer, Jonathan Strickland. You just 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:53.960 call out my name and you know wherever I am, 0:01:54.040 --> 0:02:02.280 I'll come running a yes. So that's sort of pertinent. Yeah, 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:04.640 it's pertinent to our discussion. But before we get into it, 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:13.120 let's start off with a little listener mail. This listener 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:15.679 mail comes from Michael, who says, Hi, Chris and Jonathan, 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:17.960 I've been listening to your podcast for about seven months 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:20.000 and enjoy them immensely, and I figured I should write 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:22.400 in to not only tell you this, but also suggest 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:25.280 an idea for a podcast topic. I'm writing this email 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:27.680 on the day after more riots in London and as 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:30.040 I watched the Rolling News coverage I keep hearing people 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:32.680 suggesting that social media was integral to the way the 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:35.520 looting and violence played out. They say Twitter is being 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:37.560 used to plan and suggest places to go and loot, 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:40.600 and that BlackBerry messengers being used to privately distribute this 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:43.360 info to hundreds of people at a time, as is 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:46.120 the way with the mainstream media. They're quick to jump 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:49.200 to conclusions that only social media could have possibly caused 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:52.440 these displays of thuggery and violence, and forget the fact 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.000 that social media can be used for both harm and 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:59.680 for good. In recent months, the Arab Spring has similar commentary. 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:02.880 Twitter has been blocked in certain countries and many rallies 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:05.680 have been organized using only Twitter. What do you guys 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:08.600 make of this? As social media been as integral as 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:10.720 everyone is saying it has been, What about in the 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:13.600 days before social media? What tech was used back then 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:16.280 to organize protests and uprisings? Is all of this in 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:18.400 urban myth? I hope you'll be able to explain this 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:21.240 to all of us peaceful tech stuff listeners. Thanks for 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:24.680 all the fun, Michael. Michael, we are going to talk 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:28.200 about technology and its role in the recent London and 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:32.160 well really riots across the United Kingdom. UM. And by recent, 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:34.519 I mean we are recording this in early August of 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:37.600 twenty eleven, So as of the recording of this podcast, 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:41.040 there are still disturbances in the UK that are related 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:46.920 to these riots and hopefully they will be resolved soon. UM. Yeah. UM. 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:51.240 Of course we have brought up similar topics UM in 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:55.040 the past. We talked about how Twitter was being used 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:59.840 in Iran UM to help people communicate with one another. 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.760 I think we also mentioned Egypt, Egypt, Yep and UM 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:06.520 and some of the other countries to where people were 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:12.000 using social media fit specifically Facebook and Twitter UM to 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:16.800 help them organize their efforts. UM. And I would I 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:20.120 would say that, I mean it's it's certainly in those cases. 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:22.920 I mean even the United States government sort of gotten involved, 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:28.000 UM because supporting UM the efforts of people to use 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:30.680 these services right right. As a matter of fact, Twitter 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:33.840 was planning on going undergoing some maintenance and taking down 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:39.839 the service UM following the Iranian elections and their unrest 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:43.520 that followed the protests, and the Obama administration requested that 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:47.720 they hold off on that maintenance. Yes, yes, which Twitter 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:54.479 agreed to do. UM. I would say that integral might 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.400 be kind of a strong word. I might say that 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:01.920 it that that using these technology ease um may have 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:05.119 been integral to the way they were carried out. Yeah, 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:11.279 it's the We have to separate the reasons for the 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:15.479 unrest and the methodology they used to carry it out. 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:18.279 We have to separate those two things, because the technology 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:21.960 did not cause these riots. And in fact, to to 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:24.600 try and sum up what these riots were caused by 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:26.800 in a sound bite or two is doing it a 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:31.320 terrible disservice. The first of all, I cannot even pretend 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:37.040 to understand the full social and political culture in the 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:41.800 UK that kind of led up to this event. We 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:45.720 we know, of course that the precipitating event was the 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:49.599 the the death of a man at the hands of 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:54.200 the police, the Metropolitan London Police UM, and that that 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:57.400 kind of was the spark that started everything. But the 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:01.320 riots of course far out a clip that initial event, 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:04.200 and it's clear, or at least it appears to be clear, 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:07.520 that the motivations behind the people who are carrying out 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:12.120 these riots have little if anything to do with that spark. 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:16.599 I get the sense that some of the rioters may 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:21.800 have had that event in mind um when they started, 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:28.359 but that other people may just be rioting to loot, 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:31.599 use it as an excuse to loot. And this happens 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:34.400 in a lot of cases when there is rioting. So 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:38.080 I I don't think everyone's motivation for participating is the same. 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:40.880 I think what you have is you have a population 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:45.320 of people who feel uh, some sort of deep resentment 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.480 and anger which even they may not even be necessarily 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:52.880 conscious of, or they may be unable to articulate that. Uh. 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:57.280 They some of them have been articulating their their feelings 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:03.040 towards the media, but in ways that seem maybe disingenuous 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:07.480 or at least it's it's hard to connect the feelings 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:10.240 with the actions, right because the actions we're talking about 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:13.520 in London in the UK in general are more about 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:18.160 very destructive behavior about looting, and the targets for this 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:22.920 behavior tend to be small businesses, family owned businesses. We're 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:27.160 not talking about institutions, right because you would say that, well, 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:29.600 this is a if this is truly a political statement, 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:33.400 then you would think you would target institutions that represent 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:37.720 whatever the opposing ideology is, right, Like if you were 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:40.800 going to attack say Parliament to represent the government, or 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:43.960 the police station because you didn't like the police right, 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:48.680 or or large banks because that represents the government as well. 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:51.280 Then you you know that then you could argue, well, 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:54.840 that's a very or at least a clearer political statement 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:59.760 than attacking a family owned, community based business. In that case, 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:02.680 what saying is that, well, we have rioters who are 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:06.600 attacking businesses within their own community, so they are ultimately 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:11.560 hurting their own community. This is not pushing forward any 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:15.200 sort of political ideology. This looks more like an example 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:19.840 of someone who desires certain things in their life that 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:24.360 they otherwise are unable to to obtain, and they're taking 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:28.400 the opportunity of chaos to slip in and grab those things. 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:31.640 So we're getting really philosophical here, but it's it's kind 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:34.480 of like, um, one of the great discussions I've seen 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:38.400 online kind of talked about how we have created this 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:43.280 this UH environment of consumerism. Right, consumerism is considered something 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:47.480 that's a good thing, you know, beck when after the 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:51.319 the nine eleven UH tragedy here in the United States, 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:55.040 we had government officials saying the best thing we can 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:58.000 do is go out there and business as usual, go 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:01.120 out and buy stuff, I mean by things. Was definitely 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:04.439 part of the strategy to continue to combat this terrorism, 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:08.760 which is saying that consumerism is like a foundation of 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:11.080 what our society is right now. So we have promoted 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:13.959 this idea that to make your life better, you should 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.120 go out and buy stuff. And I'm not saying whether 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:18.679 or not that's good or bad. I'm not passing judgment 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:22.719 on that. Because I'm a consumer. I have lots of 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:26.319 things that uh that if you were to step outside 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:28.840 and be objective, you'd say, all right, that's a luxury, 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:32.160 that's not a that's not something you have to have, right. 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:34.520 I mean, I've got those things. I've got some of 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:37.760 them sitting in front of me. Um. But the promotion 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:42.280 of consumerism to a a population of people who don't 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:46.480 have the the income to spend on that consumerism can 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:50.959 create a level of frustration and anger and greed. You've 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:53.480 got these people who are being told over and over again, 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:57.360 buying this will make you happy, you know, owning this 0:09:57.440 --> 0:09:59.960 will make you a better person. That kind of mess 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.040 and she gets put forth, and then they have no 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:06.800 avenue where they can actually purchase said product, and then 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:08.840 they have this opportunity to just take things and be 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:14.160 part of this consumer uh environment. By passing the whole 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:18.280 being you know, earning the money and purchasing things on 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.160 your own, using your own money, that kind of thing. Now, 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:23.200 I'm not saying that's the cause of the riots either. 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:28.600 That's just one factor and it's such a complex issue 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:32.160 that you can't boil it down to because of this 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:35.960 this happened. It's far more complex. But I'm just that 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:37.680 was just my way of pointing out that this is 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:41.520 a really complicated problem. You can't just say, uh, oh, 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:44.400 it's technology's fault, and you can't even say it's just 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:46.559 the government's fault. There's so many I mean, there are 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.560 personal choices that are involved here too. You can't you 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:54.560 cannot absolve the rioters from personal responsibility either. But at 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:56.720 the same time, you can't just say, oh, these are 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:58.920 these are bad people, because if you just say they're 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:02.080 bad people, you're just missing them and you're ultimately saying 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:05.000 this is always going to happen because some people are 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:09.080 just bad. So you resolved yourself to future riots, you know, 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:13.760 there's no solution there because you've just made a label. Well, um, 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:16.240 I'm sorry, my soapbox is getting a little unsteady livings 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:21.760 step down here. So, so as far as technologies role. Um. 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:24.240 You know that the web services that people are using, 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:29.360 you know, Twitter and Facebook and and specifically smartphone BlackBerry. 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:34.960 Um in this case, uh have been blamed by some 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:40.800 in the media. I think, Um, but again, these technologies, Yeah, 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:45.800 but these I mean, I think it's important, as Michael 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:49.680 points out, to note that these these services are basically 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:52.960 neither good nor evil. They're just tools that can be 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.480 used for anything, right. Um. I mean in a lot 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:59.680 of cases, they're used to you know, communicate with friends 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:04.880 or or you know, used for consumers to find new deals. 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:07.160 That happens a lot on Twitter, especially you know, hey, 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:11.040 uh mentioned this tweet and get a thing, or to 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:13.440 disseminate news or to disseminate news. I mean, they can 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:15.600 be used for all kinds of things. Um. They can 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:19.319 also be used to communicate hate speech. Um. It's not 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:22.160 the again, it's not the tools fault. Yeah, no, it's 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:25.920 it's just it's just a medium of communication, right. So, 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:29.920 and and in the uh um Iranian elections and the 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:34.120 aftermath that followed, people were using uh these tools to 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:39.000 organize themselves and stay a step ahead of the authorities 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:41.719 who are trying to shut them down. So it was 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:45.560 very much like a flash mob might be again another 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:47.920 another something you can use these tools for that can 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:50.920 be a lot of fun um. But they were using 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.320 it basically to arrange to be in a certain place 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.320 at a certain time. They would meet, you know, they 0:12:57.320 --> 0:12:58.880 would all take their own path to get there. They 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:01.480 would meet, they would do a demonstration, and then they 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:04.240 would leave to organize again in another location. And by 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:06.959 the time the authorities were able to catch up with them, 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:09.360 or they thought they would catch up with them, they 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.560 were gone. The crowd. Crowd had dispersed, and that wasn't 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:15.400 you know, I mean, And they were getting their point 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:17.760 across by getting a lot of media attention and and 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:21.760 showing solidarity that they were also being very careful not 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:24.800 to become an easy target, right right, And in the 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.000 in this case, you know, a lot of people in 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:29.480 the media said, this is a good thing. Look how 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.560 advanced this is, and how this wouldn't have been when 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.840 possible without it, And it really you would have had 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:39.920 to have met with everyone and agreed to everything upfront. 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.360 So no, technology is not essential to making this happen, 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:45.839 but it does make it a whole lot easier. And 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:50.200 that you again also raises the question of for for 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:53.960 especially for countries where you have civil disobedience in response 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:56.760 to some sort of oppressive government. However, you wanted to 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:01.599 find that the question comes comes up like, well, why 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:04.480 why now, right? Why does this happen now as opposed 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:06.719 to ten years ago? And part of that is that 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:10.319 technology has made it easier for people to organize these 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.040 kind of protests and to communicate with one another and 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:17.080 to get the word out so that the world at 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:20.920 large knows what's going on. It's not just a regional thing. 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:23.560 And so in a way you could say that technology 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:27.640 has helped uh these sort of things happen, but again 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:30.120 it's not it's just because technology is a tool that's 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:32.400 been used, and it's not that the desire wasn't there 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:34.680 ten years ago. It's just that maybe the opportunity was 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:39.040 had a higher barrier to it, and so getting over 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:42.640 that barrier was was what was preventing these sort of 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:48.080 uh outbreaks of civil disobedience if you prefer, from happening. Yeah, 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:50.920 these these tools are far more available to people now 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:53.960 than they were in the pasture. Um So now in 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:57.640 the case with the UK riots, that to differentiate them 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:01.040 between those and the political uh protests that we've seen 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:04.280 other places of the world. The big problem here is 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:06.160 that a lot of the people who are who have 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.240 been using these or at least the publicized uses of 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:13.120 social media and blackberries and things like that, have been 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:18.640 for people in the riots to coordinate attacks on certain businesses. 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:20.920 So essentially, what happens is you've got a couple of 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:22.800 people who are casing a place and they see that 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:25.360 there's not a very strong police presence in a particular 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:27.840 part of London, so they send out the word and 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:30.400 in that word gets sent out wider and wider and wider, 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:32.040 and then next thing you know, you've got a full, 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:36.000 full blown riot on your hands. People breaking into those 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:39.520 businesses because they know based on those messages that there's 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:41.800 not a real police presence, so there's not there's not 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:45.480 really much of a chance of getting caught, so they 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:49.400 take the advantage of the situation and they break in 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:53.160 and they looked essentially and uh, then you've got some 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:57.320 people who go even further than that, who are burning buildings, 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.480 which I can't even get into the psychology of that. 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.200 I mean, it's so foreign to me that not only 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:10.360 are you like, I don't understand the motivations behind it. 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:12.680 I don't know if it's anger. I don't know if 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:17.400 it's just something else that is really indefinable and I 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:19.400 can't pretend to understand. So I'm not really going to 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:22.400 go into it. But at any rate, UM, you've got 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:26.440 the the use of this technology to organize these uh 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:29.680 and organizes really kind of kind of too strong a word. 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:32.080 It's more like a call to arms saying, hey, guys, 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:34.200 if you want free stuff, come here and break in 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:36.440 and you can take it from this place. It's not 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:40.040 really so much organizing as it is just uh snatching 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.720 up an opportunity because the police are otherwise occupied and 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:47.120 you've got a very mobile group out there. I mean, 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:49.520 these are all for the most part, you know, if 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:51.960 you see the news, they all talk about being youths. 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.080 So they're young people, you know, in their teens and 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.160 twenties mostly. I've I've heard some as young as ten. 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:01.640 So you've got the yeah, young people who are in 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:05.560 a city that has a lot of UH ways of 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:10.679 getting around, particularly using the underground system that the tube. UM. 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.560 So there's been talking about possibly shutting down just the 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:19.399 the uh the cell networks around tube stations. So in 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:22.000 other words, turning those towers off or shutting it down 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:25.160 so that people can't communicate when they're near a tube station, 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:27.720 because part of it is that, you know, they want 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.359 to stay as mobile as possible so they can jump 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:33.080 on the next opportunity. And if you you know, so, 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:35.720 that means they're normally staying pretty close to the various 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:37.480 tube stations in order to be able to get to 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:40.480 whatever part of London is going to be the next target. 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:42.960 And if you shut that down then you really kind 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:47.159 of uh, the theory is that you would you would 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:49.480 silence them. The same sort of thing with some of 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:53.040 those social networks and the services. There's been some discussion 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:57.359 in British government about what to do about the the 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:00.720 text messaging and the BlackBerry messaging and and using social 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:02.840 networks like Twitter and Facebook. What do you do about 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:06.160 that and how do you stop those from being tools 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:12.160 of destruction? And uh, there's a lot of debate on that. Yeah, 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:13.760 I was I was gonna say, let's talk a little 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:17.840 bit about the tools specifically, UM, Facebook and Twitter sort 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:20.760 of no brainers, um, And they're easy for people to 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.480 use there, they're available via smartphones and and all sorts 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:28.720 of devices of course, UM, but they're not encrypted in 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:33.119 any way. UM. So it's it's easy enough to post 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:35.879 those messages, but it's also easy enough for people in 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:39.560 law enforcement to keep their eyes on it. UM. In fact, 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.600 I have seen some reports that went so far as 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:48.919 to suggest that they believe that people were posting messages 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:54.720 deliberately intended to mislead the authorities to going to another 0:18:54.760 --> 0:19:00.159 location and then the real target was somewhere else that 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:02.960 they wanted to hit. UM, that the writers wanted to 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:06.320 attack UM. And I just I don't know whether that's 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:08.800 accurate or not. That was that that is a a 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:11.160 uh you know, I thought that they had had at 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:12.600 one point. And I just want to point out that 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:15.399 Facebook has said that, you know, their policy is that 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:19.720 they don't allow uh, hate speech or messages that condone 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:22.840 violence or or our call to violence or anything like 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:25.560 that on their network, so that if they, if anyone 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:29.439 working for Facebook sees that, they will remove that post. 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:33.800 So at least Facebook already is saying that, you know, uh, 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:37.399 we don't need government intervention necessarily because we already do 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.920 that this ourselves. So though one might wonder how effective 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:43.240 that can be, I mean, how this that that raises 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:45.200 another question that we'll get to in a minute about 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:48.760 how viable would a solution be to to limit or 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:52.399 shut down these social networking services. But that's we'll have 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:55.879 to get into that discussion before, I mean, after we 0:19:55.920 --> 0:20:00.720 talk about all the different specific services, the most interesting 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:06.720 one to me as the BlackBerry messenger. UM. Apparently, according 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:13.520 to Offcom, Blackberries are more common phones among teens in 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:17.320 the United Kingdom between the ages of thirteen and eighteen. 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:23.800 It's more about thirty seven percent of kids have a BlackBerry. Now. 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:27.840 I think it's funny because again, on many occasions, you 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:31.480 and I have talked about how uh BlackBerry has been 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:36.919 sort of left behind by other handset manufacturers and and 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:44.000 operating system manufacturers, most specifically Android and Apple's iOS. But um, 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:47.560 you know, even the Windows phone is more of a 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:51.640 consumer device, so I don't think of the BlackBerry as 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:55.400 being a consumer device. But apparently it is especially popular 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:57.760 among this age group in the United Kingdom. And the 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:03.120 reason this is interesting is simply because the BlackBerry, since 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:07.160 it is intended originally to be uh an enterprise level 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:14.000 basically a corporate messaging service. Um it's encrypted, so uh, 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:15.959 you know, and you may not see that with the 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:20.720 text messaging UM on your local phone or smartphone. So 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:25.399 those messages are going over an encrypted private network Blackberries network, 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:31.560 and therefore the police cannot see what these people who 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:34.400 are using those devices are are saying. It could be 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:38.000 talking about, you know, anything, but they could also be 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:43.760 used for uh coordination of activities by people who are 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:49.240 involved with the riots. So um, the the British government 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:53.280 is particularly concerned about that. I have noticed, um, because 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:56.360 they cannot see what's going on now. Apparently there are 0:21:56.440 --> 0:21:59.320 laws that say, um, you know they have said we 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:03.960 are in London is a very camera heavy city. Yeah. Um, 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:07.520 they're saying that, you know, we we can identify you, 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:09.680 and we can see that you are involved with this 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:14.160 and committing these acts. We will bring you to justice. Um. 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:17.880 Apparently there are some laws that say that, um, they 0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:23.320 can't just subpoena all these messaging records without knowing in 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:26.879 fact that it is that person up front, and then 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:29.880 getting the phone records from that person to confirm whether 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:32.200 or not he or she was involved. Seems kind of interesting. 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:34.680 I know it's more complicated than that, but then you're 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:38.320 you're you're you're arguing like that. The argument seems to be, 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:41.400 you can't get the evidence that they did committed something 0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:44.160 unless you can prove that they committed something already, which 0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:47.200 is a catch twenty two, right, Um, unless you're just 0:22:47.240 --> 0:22:49.760 saying that you wanted more corroborating evidence and you already 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:54.320 had plenty of evidence to start with, or the alternative 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:57.440 as you can say, Well, how how strict is that 0:22:57.520 --> 0:22:59.879 if you get an accusation, is that enough for it 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:03.920 to be to to get a request for the information? Because, uh, 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:05.399 the way it's word it, it it sounds like you have 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:07.760 to have more than just an accusation, because otherwise otherwise 0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:11.760 there's no there's no teeth to that at all, right right, um. 0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:14.960 And and apparently Research in Motion, which is the Canadian 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:18.240 company that UH is behind the BlackBerry I said it 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:23.000 will cooperate with authorities, which UH caused a group of 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:28.600 hackers called Team Poison to UH take over the BlackBerry 0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:31.440 blog basically break in, and they posted a message saying 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:35.840 that um if rim as Research in Motion is known 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:40.080 popularly UH cooperates with the police, then they will, you know, 0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:44.159 stage an attack against. Team Poison also has a history 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:47.880