WEBVTT - Who's Afraid of the Duchess of Newcastle (Part Two)

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<v Speaker 1>The first published volume of work from Margaret Cavendish, Poems

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<v Speaker 1>and Fancies in sixteen fifty three, introduced readers to an

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<v Speaker 1>author who didn't settle for one subject or style. The

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<v Speaker 1>volume features poems about atoms, arguments for the existence of fairies,

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<v Speaker 1>and conversations between man and nature. Amongst these varied pieces,

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<v Speaker 1>one can also find a short essay titled to All

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<v Speaker 1>Writing Ladies. In that essay, Cavendish argues that history is

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<v Speaker 1>composed of ages defined by men's changing desires. There are

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<v Speaker 1>ages of peace, ages of war, ages of many gods,

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<v Speaker 1>ages of atheism, ages of learning, ages of ignorance. Throughout

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<v Speaker 1>these ages, Margaret explains, there are times when women rise

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<v Speaker 1>to prominence, whether they be heroines, prophets, rulers, or scholars.

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<v Speaker 1>For brief periods of time. Then women, she argues, can

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<v Speaker 1>define an era, and if it be an age when

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<v Speaker 1>the effeminate spirits rule, Cavendish rites, let us take the

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<v Speaker 1>advantage and make the best of our time, for fear

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<v Speaker 1>their reign should not last long. To that same effect,

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<v Speaker 1>Cavendish rites, let us strive to build us tombs while

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<v Speaker 1>we live, followed by a couplet that, though our bodies

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<v Speaker 1>die our names may live to after memory. Sixteen fifty

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<v Speaker 1>three's Poems and Fancies would be the first of many

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<v Speaker 1>tombs Margaret built herself while she was living. If you

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<v Speaker 1>recall the ending of our last episode, readers of Poems

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<v Speaker 1>were met with a title page loudly declaring that the

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<v Speaker 1>book was written by the right Honorable the Lady Margaret,

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<v Speaker 1>Countess of Newcastle. Some editions even featured a bold etching

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<v Speaker 1>of Margaret as a classical statue, standing in between Apollo

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<v Speaker 1>and Athena. Margaret's writing would never be so groundbreaking as

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<v Speaker 1>to define an era or earn a spot among the classics,

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<v Speaker 1>but simply by putting her own name on a work

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<v Speaker 1>of fiction, Margaret Cavendish solidified her place in history as

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<v Speaker 1>a trailblazer. A quote from a friend is included in

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<v Speaker 1>the introduction to poems, quote, you are not only the

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<v Speaker 1>first English poet of your sex, but the first that

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<v Speaker 1>ever wrote this way. When the then Countess released Poems

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<v Speaker 1>and Fancies, only an estimated one point three percent of

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<v Speaker 1>total English publications were openly written by women, and naturally

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<v Speaker 1>we don't even have the statistics for women who may

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<v Speaker 1>have been writing anonymously. Although some certainly did one point

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<v Speaker 1>three percent, then is small and mostly made up of

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<v Speaker 1>works offering religious and maternal advice. From sixteen fifty to

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<v Speaker 1>sixteen sixty, religious texts made up around sixty one percent

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<v Speaker 1>of all published writing by women. Literature, including poetry and plays,

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<v Speaker 1>made up only zero point zero one six percent. Trailblazers are,

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<v Speaker 1>as we know, not always well regarded in their time.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a quote from one of Margaret's contemporaries, Dorothy Osborne,

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<v Speaker 1>known posthumously for her collection of letters. In one such correspondence,

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<v Speaker 1>Osborne wrote, they say poems and fancies 'tis ten times

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<v Speaker 1>more extravagant than her dress. And once Osborne got her

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<v Speaker 1>hands on a copy, she declared that I have seen

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<v Speaker 1>it and am satisfied that there are many soberer people

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<v Speaker 1>in Bedlam. Osborne was not alone in her perception of Cavendish.

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<v Speaker 1>After all, her nickname of the crazy Duchess persists to

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<v Speaker 1>this day, immortalized by Virginia Woolf in a Room of

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<v Speaker 1>One Zone. Was Cavendish truly as crazy as they say?

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<v Speaker 1>In her own view? At least it's a bit more complex.

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<v Speaker 1>I am not covetous, but as ambitious as ever any

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<v Speaker 1>of my sex was, is or can be. Which is

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<v Speaker 1>the cause though that I cannot be Henry the fifth

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<v Speaker 1>or Charles the second. Yet I will endeavor to be

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<v Speaker 1>Margaret the first. I'm Danish Schwartz, and this is noble blood.

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<v Speaker 1>When we last left Margaret, she had discovered her passion

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<v Speaker 1>for writing under the tutelage of her husband William and

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<v Speaker 1>her brother in law Charles. Before she could publish poems, however,

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<v Speaker 1>she would have to make an unexpected trip back to

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<v Speaker 1>her home country following years abroad. In November sixteen fifty one,

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<v Speaker 1>she locked her writings up in a trunk as though

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<v Speaker 1>they had been buried in a grave, and left them

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<v Speaker 1>behind in Antwerp with her husband William. That fall, the

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<v Speaker 1>Cavendishes had learned that Charles's estates were sequestered by Parliament,

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<v Speaker 1>while William's previously seized estates were being sold to fund

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<v Speaker 1>war in Ireland. In order to regain possession or entitlement,

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<v Speaker 1>the deemed delinquent had to appear in front of the

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<v Speaker 1>newly established rump Parliament, more specif, there a literally named

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<v Speaker 1>committee for compounding. The Cavendishes at this point were so

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<v Speaker 1>broke that William recognized the necessity of the journey, but

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<v Speaker 1>he himself could not join his brother, as setting foot

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<v Speaker 1>on English soil would have been a death sentence for him.

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<v Speaker 1>Thus it was up to Charles and Margaret to travel

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<v Speaker 1>home in frugal style to try to reclaim what they could. Margaret,

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<v Speaker 1>with her debilitating separation and social anxiety, certainly would not

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<v Speaker 1>have left her husband's side if she didn't think the

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<v Speaker 1>situation was so dire. After all, she had an important

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<v Speaker 1>role to play. As William's wife. She was entitled to

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<v Speaker 1>one fifth of the proceeds from his sold estates, which

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<v Speaker 1>would have aided considerably in relieving the family's debt. Unfortunately

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<v Speaker 1>for the couple, they would never see the promised payout.

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<v Speaker 1>Margaret was so anxious to appear in court that her

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<v Speaker 1>only living brother, John Lucas, had to speak to the

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<v Speaker 1>committee on her behalf. Margaret listened quietly while they ruled

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<v Speaker 1>that because she had married William, since he became a delinquent,

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<v Speaker 1>she was owed nothing. For Charles's part, he managed to

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<v Speaker 1>regain some of his estates, but he paid such hefty

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<v Speaker 1>fines in the process that he had to sell some

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<v Speaker 1>of the land that he had just won back. While

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<v Speaker 1>Margaret's mission was ultimately unsuccessful, there were still bright spots

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<v Speaker 1>to be found in London. For one thing, she was

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<v Speaker 1>reunited with her family for the first time in many years.

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<v Speaker 1>They were smaller in number by this point. Margaret's brothers,

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<v Speaker 1>Charles and Thomas, her mother, and one of her sisters

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<v Speaker 1>had all died while Margaret was abroad, but her brother

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<v Speaker 1>John and her beloved sister Catherine were alive and well

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<v Speaker 1>in London. If you recall, it was Catherine whom Margaret

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<v Speaker 1>intensely feared losing, so to see her again must have

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<v Speaker 1>felt like a miracle. Margaret was also able to meet

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<v Speaker 1>some of Williams's sons and daughters for the first time,

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<v Speaker 1>who all remained in London after their father's self imposed exile.

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<v Speaker 1>This was also the period in which Margaret was introduced

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<v Speaker 1>to London's royalist intellectual circles. She frequented the salons of

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<v Speaker 1>composer Henry Laws, who welcomed the contributions of women, including

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<v Speaker 1>Margaret's contemporary, the poet Katherine Phillips. In these groups, work

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<v Speaker 1>was typically circulated as unpublished manuscripts, which would later sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>be published posthumously. Margaret was one of the select few

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<v Speaker 1>who chose to officially publish her work in her lifetime.

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<v Speaker 1>Her publication was also notably not an independent venture. She

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<v Speaker 1>worked with Martin and Alstree, a small but not unimportant

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<v Speaker 1>press who would go on to become the official booksellers

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<v Speaker 1>to the Royal Society. What drove her to take this

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<v Speaker 1>step that few others, let alone women often took, we

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<v Speaker 1>don't quite know. In the introduction to Poems and Fancies,

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<v Speaker 1>Margaret explained the driving force behind her writing and defends

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<v Speaker 1>her right to publish said writing, but she doesn't detail

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<v Speaker 1>her thought process about the in between. As we discussed

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<v Speaker 1>last time, Margaret found the practice of writing eased her

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<v Speaker 1>anxiety and her sadness like nothing else, and indeed she

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<v Speaker 1>was living in a specifically un settling time. Though she

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<v Speaker 1>reunited with some of her family in London, she was

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<v Speaker 1>without her husband in a country that did not look

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<v Speaker 1>the same after eight years abroad. I was from my Lord,

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<v Speaker 1>she writes in the preface to Poems, meaning she was

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<v Speaker 1>away from her husband and knowing him to be in

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<v Speaker 1>great wants, and myself in the same condition to divert them.

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<v Speaker 1>I wrote to turn the stream. When she says once

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<v Speaker 1>she could be referring to their longing for each other,

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<v Speaker 1>but also their financial struggles. In that way, that line

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<v Speaker 1>could be suggesting that publishing her work was an economic venture.

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<v Speaker 1>Margaret certainly couldn't have hoped to make a living off

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<v Speaker 1>her writing, after all, men of the era capable of

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<v Speaker 1>such were few and far between. But even a small

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<v Speaker 1>prophet could have helped to turn the stream, if not

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<v Speaker 1>the tides, when it came to defending herself. Margaret dedicated

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<v Speaker 1>poems in part quote to all noble and worthy ladies.

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<v Speaker 1>In this short letter, she shares her fears. I imagine

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<v Speaker 1>I shall be censored by my own sex, and men

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<v Speaker 1>will cast a smile of scorn upon my book because

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<v Speaker 1>they think thereby women encroach too. She implores her fellow

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<v Speaker 1>women to stand up for her, and knows them to

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<v Speaker 1>be capable of it, for I know women's tongues are

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<v Speaker 1>as sharp as two edged swords, and wound as much

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<v Speaker 1>when they are angered. After all, in Margaret's mind, she

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<v Speaker 1>was doing no harm. Quote, the world may wonder at

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<v Speaker 1>my confidence, how dare I put out a book, especially

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<v Speaker 1>in these censorious times? Why should I be ashamed or afraid?

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<v Speaker 1>Where no evil is her publication was not only audacious

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<v Speaker 1>in its very existence, but also in its content. Most

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<v Speaker 1>not the first poem, A World Made by Atoms, describes

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<v Speaker 1>exactly what its title implies, the creation of our world

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<v Speaker 1>as a scientific process with no mention of God. It

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<v Speaker 1>may seem counterintuitive coming from a woman who was a

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<v Speaker 1>royalist and believed in the divine right of kings, but

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<v Speaker 1>much of Margaret's early philosophy is considered epicurean atomism, which

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<v Speaker 1>was bold enough to garner accusations of atheism. In Margaret's

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<v Speaker 1>work The World's Olio, she goes so far as to say, quote,

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<v Speaker 1>it is better to be an atheist than a superstitious man,

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<v Speaker 1>For in atheism there is humanity and civility towards man

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<v Speaker 1>to man, but superstition regards no humanity. Margaret would later

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<v Speaker 1>reassure readers, pray, account me not an atheist, but believe

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<v Speaker 1>as I do in God Almighty. In typical Margaret fashion,

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<v Speaker 1>her thoughts on her own work flip between shyly modest

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<v Speaker 1>and brazenly ambitious. Spare your severe censures, she calls on

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<v Speaker 1>the reader, I having not so many years of experience

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<v Speaker 1>as will make me a garland to crown my head.

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<v Speaker 1>Only I have had so much time as to gather

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<v Speaker 1>a little posey to stick upon my breast. In the

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<v Speaker 1>same introduction, she claims, my ambition is such as I

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<v Speaker 1>would either be a world or nothing. Margaret's journey to

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<v Speaker 1>being a world would take some time, but her next

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<v Speaker 1>step would be to travel across our world once again.

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<v Speaker 1>In February sixteen fifty three, just weeks after poem's publication,

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<v Speaker 1>she prepared to cross the Channel and return to her

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<v Speaker 1>husband Williams's side. While she had found prosperous Royalist circles,

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<v Speaker 1>her home country was still a hostile place for those

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<v Speaker 1>loyal to the dead King Charles. Her brother in law

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<v Speaker 1>was meant to make the journey with her, but he

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<v Speaker 1>fell ill and was advised against traveling for the time being.

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<v Speaker 1>In order to leave England, Parliament was requiring travelers to

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<v Speaker 1>swear an oath of allegiance known as the Engagement. I

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<v Speaker 1>do declare and promise It read that I will be

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<v Speaker 1>true and faithful to the Commonwealth of England as it

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<v Speaker 1>is now established, without a king or house of lords.

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<v Speaker 1>You can imagine this would have been a real indignity

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<v Speaker 1>for Margaret if she had to swear it. The catch

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<v Speaker 1>was that only men had to take this oath. Women were,

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<v Speaker 1>of course, assumed to be so politically ignorant that there

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<v Speaker 1>was no need for such declarations. On March second, the

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<v Speaker 1>Council issued permission for Lady Newcastle and servants to go

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<v Speaker 1>out of England without having taken of the engagement pressed

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<v Speaker 1>upon her, As William had done in the early days

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<v Speaker 1>of their courtship. William wrote Margaret many poems of longing

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<v Speaker 1>during those fifteen months spent apart, and many poems of passion.

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<v Speaker 1>Upon their reunion. Our tongues thought much when lips did touch,

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<v Speaker 1>they should not meet softly, reads one written after his

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<v Speaker 1>wife's return to Antwerp. The couple's childlessness then cannot be

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<v Speaker 1>attributed to a lack of trying. As for Margaret, she

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<v Speaker 1>continued working on her second prose collection, Philosophical Fancies, a

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<v Speaker 1>series of essays originally intended to be included in poems.

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<v Speaker 1>With soon to be two publications under her belt, now,

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<v Speaker 1>Margaret showed no signs of slowing down. Her next step

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<v Speaker 1>was to establish herself as a literary figure in Europe.

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<v Speaker 1>With William's help, Margaret sent out copies of poems and

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<v Speaker 1>Fancies and philosophical fancies to prominent courtiers and intellectuals. Many

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<v Speaker 1>of these celebrated figures sent messages of praise, but much

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<v Speaker 1>of that praise comes across as too flattering, veering into

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<v Speaker 1>the insincere. She was, after all, still a noble woman,

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<v Speaker 1>As Margaret often referred to her writings as her children.

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<v Speaker 1>One royalist scholar played on her own idea, advising her

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<v Speaker 1>to go on, then, most honorable madam, bless the world

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<v Speaker 1>with these noble infants of your brain. Margaret's most honest

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<v Speaker 1>compliment may have come from a criticism. The English courtier

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<v Speaker 1>and author Sir Edward Hyde argued that since Margaret was

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<v Speaker 1>quote unskilled in any but our mother tongue, and lack

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<v Speaker 1>of one normal education, she could not have written a

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<v Speaker 1>book with so many terms of art and such expressions

0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:12.000
<v Speaker 1>proper to all science. In his denouncement, Hyde evidently put

0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:15.280
<v Speaker 1>forth the idea that Margaret's work was not only good,

0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:20.959
<v Speaker 1>but too good. In response, the epilogue to Philosophical Fancies

0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:24.879
<v Speaker 1>includes a rebuttal, I hear that my first book was

0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:28.560
<v Speaker 1>thought to be none of mine own. Margaret argues, she

0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:32.800
<v Speaker 1>is too honest as not to steal another's work, nor

0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:36.639
<v Speaker 1>so vainglorious as to strain to build up a fame

0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:41.840
<v Speaker 1>upon the ground of another man's wit. This would be

0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:48.000
<v Speaker 1>a recurring battle throughout Margaret's career. Anatomists, philosophers, and writers

0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:52.040
<v Speaker 1>of all kinds would accuse Margaret of lying about her

0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:55.920
<v Speaker 1>education level or passing off someone else's work as her own.

0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:00.720
<v Speaker 1>Margaret or William would write a defense in response, rinse,

0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:05.920
<v Speaker 1>and repeat. As Margaret began to work on her next publication,

0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:10.800
<v Speaker 1>the Words Olio, the Cavendish family faced a major loss.

0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:15.160
<v Speaker 1>The illness that had kept Charles in London turned out

0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:19.760
<v Speaker 1>to be deadly. He died in early sixteen fifty four,

0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:24.440
<v Speaker 1>never having made it back to Antwerp. Both Margaret and

0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:29.479
<v Speaker 1>William were devastated. In her memoir, Margaret later wrote that

0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:33.440
<v Speaker 1>she would quote lament the loss so long as I live,

0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:37.000
<v Speaker 1>going on to describe her brother in law and tutor

0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:43.720
<v Speaker 1>as quote nobly generous, wisely valiant, naturally civil, honestly kind,

0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:49.480
<v Speaker 1>truly loving, virtuously temperate. Maybe now is a good time

0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:54.439
<v Speaker 1>to mention the rumor that Charles and Margaret had an affair.

0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:59.680
<v Speaker 1>There's no concrete proof here, but a series of angry

0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:04.080
<v Speaker 1>poet written by William after the couple's reunion, with titles

0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:10.160
<v Speaker 1>like Love's Changeable Heart and Love's Perjury suggest a potential

0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:15.480
<v Speaker 1>discovery of infidelity. And then there are Margaret's own published

0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:21.879
<v Speaker 1>words in poems. A letter dedicated to Charles reads, and

0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:26.000
<v Speaker 1>though I am your slave, being manicled with chains of obligation,

0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:30.360
<v Speaker 1>yet my chains feels softer than silk, and my bondage

0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:34.080
<v Speaker 1>is pleasanter than freedom, because I am bound to yourself,

0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:40.560
<v Speaker 1>who are a person so full of generosity kinki. Margaret

0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:44.560
<v Speaker 1>often writes of marriage as a form of slavery for women,

0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.760
<v Speaker 1>so it's possible she was speaking of their legal bondage

0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:52.640
<v Speaker 1>as brother and sister in law, or they were having

0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:58.200
<v Speaker 1>an affair. Will likely never know for certain. Somewhat ironically,

0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:01.640
<v Speaker 1>the portion of Charles's states that he was able to

0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:06.800
<v Speaker 1>reclaim before his death had boosted the Cavendish fortune significantly.

0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:10.439
<v Speaker 1>They were not clear of their debts, but they no

0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:14.080
<v Speaker 1>longer had to pinch pennies on day to day expenses,

0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:20.360
<v Speaker 1>and could even afford, albeit slightly irresponsibly, to spend on luxuries.

0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:25.600
<v Speaker 1>Margaret published three more works while they were in Antwerp,

0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:31.040
<v Speaker 1>the world's o Leo and the Philosophical and Physical Opinions

0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:35.920
<v Speaker 1>in sixteen fifty five and Nature's Pictures in sixteen fifty six.

0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:40.680
<v Speaker 1>Four years later, after spending nearly her entire adulthood as

0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:45.080
<v Speaker 1>an expat, Margaret moved back to her home country. She

0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:48.800
<v Speaker 1>would reside in England for the rest of her life.

0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:52.399
<v Speaker 1>Sixteen sixty was, of course, also the year Charles the

0:20:52.480 --> 0:21:02.120
<v Speaker 1>Second made his grand return home, re establishing the monarchy. William,

0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:05.320
<v Speaker 1>so thrilled at the prospect of returning to his homeland

0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:08.280
<v Speaker 1>and serving the king he had actually tutored when he

0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:11.440
<v Speaker 1>was a boy, sailed for England even before the royal

0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:16.880
<v Speaker 1>entourage did. In Margaret's autobiography, she quotes his reaction upon

0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:20.679
<v Speaker 1>finally seeing the smoke of London on the horizon. I

0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:26.840
<v Speaker 1>have been sixteen years asleep and am not thoroughly awake yet. Margaret, however,

0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:30.960
<v Speaker 1>did not hear those words first hand. William's departure for

0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:34.080
<v Speaker 1>England was so rushed, in fact, that Margaret had to

0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:38.800
<v Speaker 1>stay behind as a security for his debts. As margaret

0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:45.119
<v Speaker 1>biographer Francesca Peacock phrases it, this situation was another classic

0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:50.199
<v Speaker 1>Cavendish contradiction. It was a role that required independence. She

0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:53.680
<v Speaker 1>had to organize the transport of all their possessions to England,

0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:57.600
<v Speaker 1>deal with the magistrates of Antwerp, and secure another loan

0:21:57.640 --> 0:22:01.000
<v Speaker 1>to pay off those remaining bills. But at the same

0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:06.199
<v Speaker 1>time Margaret was quite literally being used as collateral upon

0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:11.040
<v Speaker 1>for his debts. In her own words, Margaret expresses no

0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:15.160
<v Speaker 1>displeasure at this turn of events. Despite her repeated opinion

0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:18.960
<v Speaker 1>of marriage as a financial deal for men and bondage

0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:24.120
<v Speaker 1>for women. For all of her historically overlooked positive qualities,

0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:29.880
<v Speaker 1>Margaret was also inherently contradictory and often myopic in her

0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:35.600
<v Speaker 1>otherwise progressive positions. We cannot forget, after all, the influence

0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:40.120
<v Speaker 1>of her Royalist politics on her thinking. For example, in

0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:44.920
<v Speaker 1>Sociable Letters, she writes that the disturbance in this country,

0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:49.640
<v Speaker 1>referring pretty casually to the Civil War, hath made no

0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:54.159
<v Speaker 1>breach of friendship betwixt women. For though there hath been

0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:57.200
<v Speaker 1>a civil war in the Kingdom and a general war

0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:01.399
<v Speaker 1>amongst the men, yet there have been no amongst the women.

0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:07.080
<v Speaker 1>Margaret naturally did not know any parliamentary women who might disagree.

0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:11.280
<v Speaker 1>It's a line of thinking that still echoes today when

0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:16.760
<v Speaker 1>feminist talking points failed to consider other social metrics. Margaret

0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:21.080
<v Speaker 1>was alone for about three months following William's departure for London.

0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:25.280
<v Speaker 1>With the couple's affairs sorted, the proud royalist boarded a

0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:30.360
<v Speaker 1>Dutch warship and set sail herself for England. Sea journeys

0:23:30.440 --> 0:23:35.760
<v Speaker 1>and their unpredictable, potentially destructive outcomes are a major recurring

0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:40.200
<v Speaker 1>motif in Margaret's work. In comparison to her near death

0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:43.680
<v Speaker 1>experience departing England by boat when she was a teenager,

0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:50.919
<v Speaker 1>her return trip was nothing but smooth sailing. Life in

0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:55.560
<v Speaker 1>London was not as easy. William, once again officially the

0:23:55.600 --> 0:24:00.840
<v Speaker 1>Marquise of Newcastle upon Tyne, expected a prestigious court appointment

0:24:00.920 --> 0:24:03.560
<v Speaker 1>for his service to the late Charles the First and

0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:08.240
<v Speaker 1>the young Charles the Second. By the time of Margaret's arrival, however,

0:24:08.400 --> 0:24:12.879
<v Speaker 1>no such appointment had come. William was eventually appointed to

0:24:12.920 --> 0:24:19.320
<v Speaker 1>some conciliatory but ultimately powerless positions. Fed Up, he respectfully

0:24:19.400 --> 0:24:22.679
<v Speaker 1>took his leave from court to retire to his country estate.

0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:27.240
<v Speaker 1>For the first time, Margaret was to see Wellbeck, where

0:24:27.359 --> 0:24:32.760
<v Speaker 1>once upon a time William and Charles curated their intellectual circle.

0:24:32.920 --> 0:24:37.720
<v Speaker 1>Later deemed the Wellbeck Academy. The estate was not the

0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:42.560
<v Speaker 1>jewel it had once been. In place of accommodations designed

0:24:42.600 --> 0:24:47.240
<v Speaker 1>for royalty and fame. Scholars were now, in Margaret's words,

0:24:47.760 --> 0:24:51.800
<v Speaker 1>but some few old feather beds, and all those spoiled

0:24:52.320 --> 0:24:57.600
<v Speaker 1>fit for no use. Much like the estate, the Cavendish

0:24:57.600 --> 0:25:03.240
<v Speaker 1>family situation was in disorder. Margaret was not quite given

0:25:03.280 --> 0:25:07.520
<v Speaker 1>the evil stepmother treatment, but some of William's children and

0:25:07.720 --> 0:25:13.040
<v Speaker 1>longtime employees considered her influence on him too powerful. While

0:25:13.080 --> 0:25:17.679
<v Speaker 1>they may have been misplacing their frustrations, William was in

0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:21.240
<v Speaker 1>fact giving them a number of reasons to worry. Now

0:25:21.280 --> 0:25:25.600
<v Speaker 1>back in England, the Marquess finally settled the jointure, or

0:25:25.720 --> 0:25:28.760
<v Speaker 1>the portion of his estate that would be left to

0:25:28.840 --> 0:25:32.159
<v Speaker 1>Margaret in the event that he died before her, that

0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:36.560
<v Speaker 1>normally would have been finalized upon their marriage. Margaret was

0:25:36.640 --> 0:25:39.960
<v Speaker 1>set to have an annuity of one thousand, one hundred

0:25:40.000 --> 0:25:43.679
<v Speaker 1>and twenty five pounds, as well as possession of the

0:25:43.800 --> 0:25:49.960
<v Speaker 1>manors Chesterfield, Woodthorpe and William's favorite Bolsover Castle. In later

0:25:50.119 --> 0:25:53.560
<v Speaker 1>years he would add another home and more land to

0:25:53.640 --> 0:25:59.840
<v Speaker 1>that already generous arrangement. Henry William's youngest son and heir

0:26:00.359 --> 0:26:04.399
<v Speaker 1>following the deaths of his uncle and older brother, feared

0:26:04.520 --> 0:26:07.160
<v Speaker 1>that there would be no land left for his own

0:26:07.240 --> 0:26:11.560
<v Speaker 1>children or for the continuation of the male line and

0:26:11.800 --> 0:26:17.200
<v Speaker 1>family name. Considering that William was thirty years his wife's senior,

0:26:17.800 --> 0:26:21.880
<v Speaker 1>Henry understandably saw the jointure as a pretty sure thing.

0:26:23.240 --> 0:26:28.119
<v Speaker 1>This wasn't the only concern. Margaret's dearest friend had married

0:26:28.160 --> 0:26:33.040
<v Speaker 1>a Dutch businessman named Francis Topp during their exile abroad.

0:26:33.600 --> 0:26:38.000
<v Speaker 1>William was evidently so impressed by Topp that he replaced

0:26:38.080 --> 0:26:43.120
<v Speaker 1>Welbeck's long term steward Andrew Clayton, with that new acquaintance.

0:26:44.119 --> 0:26:48.639
<v Speaker 1>Clayton blamed his displacement on Margaret and teamed up with

0:26:48.720 --> 0:26:52.560
<v Speaker 1>an unhappy tenant of Williams to turn the marquess against

0:26:52.560 --> 0:26:56.080
<v Speaker 1>his wife. They wrote an unsigned letter in which they

0:26:56.119 --> 0:27:00.960
<v Speaker 1>blamed William's diminished respect at court on Margaret and went

0:27:01.040 --> 0:27:04.560
<v Speaker 1>even further as to accuse her of committing adultery with

0:27:04.800 --> 0:27:11.280
<v Speaker 1>top All of that sitcom esque scheming was ultimately for not.

0:27:12.280 --> 0:27:18.199
<v Speaker 1>William saw through their ruse quite clearly. Margaret was but

0:27:18.280 --> 0:27:22.880
<v Speaker 1>of course still publishing through the drama. Her first collection

0:27:23.080 --> 0:27:27.320
<v Speaker 1>of plays published with the mouthful of a title, Plays

0:27:27.440 --> 0:27:32.159
<v Speaker 1>Written by the thrice Noble, Illustrious and Excellent Princess, was

0:27:32.240 --> 0:27:37.240
<v Speaker 1>printed in sixteen sixty two. Notably, it was also Margaret's

0:27:37.280 --> 0:27:41.399
<v Speaker 1>first book printed by a woman, the widow of the

0:27:41.440 --> 0:27:46.440
<v Speaker 1>printer Thomas Warren. Alice took over her husband's business after

0:27:46.520 --> 0:27:51.880
<v Speaker 1>he passed, and from sixteen sixty six onwards almost all

0:27:51.960 --> 0:27:56.520
<v Speaker 1>of Margaret's works were published by Anne Maxwell, the widow

0:27:56.560 --> 0:28:00.399
<v Speaker 1>of David Maxwell, who had inherited and managed to her

0:28:00.480 --> 0:28:05.560
<v Speaker 1>late husband's rather large business on her own. At this point,

0:28:05.600 --> 0:28:09.879
<v Speaker 1>Margaret was still a crazy Countess, but she was about

0:28:09.960 --> 0:28:14.359
<v Speaker 1>to become the crazy duchess history would remember her as.

0:28:15.520 --> 0:28:20.199
<v Speaker 1>In sixteen sixty four, William was finally rewarded by his

0:28:20.280 --> 0:28:24.600
<v Speaker 1>old pupil and friend. On June seventh, he received a

0:28:24.720 --> 0:28:28.840
<v Speaker 1>letter from Charles the Second reading, I'm resolved to grant

0:28:28.960 --> 0:28:33.199
<v Speaker 1>your request. Send me there for word what title you

0:28:33.280 --> 0:28:35.920
<v Speaker 1>desire to have, or whether you will choose to keep

0:28:35.960 --> 0:28:38.720
<v Speaker 1>your old and leave the rest to me. I am

0:28:38.760 --> 0:28:42.240
<v Speaker 1>glad you enjoy your health, for I love you very well.

0:28:43.360 --> 0:28:46.880
<v Speaker 1>William was to be made a duke, the highest rank

0:28:47.040 --> 0:28:50.360
<v Speaker 1>of English nobility below the monarch. It would take a

0:28:50.440 --> 0:28:53.920
<v Speaker 1>year to make things official, but in sixteen fifty five

0:28:54.200 --> 0:28:58.600
<v Speaker 1>Margaret and William traveled to London for a small ceremony

0:28:58.800 --> 0:29:03.040
<v Speaker 1>where they were official recognized as the Duke and Duchess

0:29:03.320 --> 0:29:11.040
<v Speaker 1>of Newcastle on Tyne. In sixteen sixty six, William sold

0:29:11.080 --> 0:29:14.600
<v Speaker 1>one of his country estates to buy back Newcastle House,

0:29:15.120 --> 0:29:19.040
<v Speaker 1>the family home in London. In sixteen sixty seven, the

0:29:19.080 --> 0:29:22.120
<v Speaker 1>couple moved in and found themselves in the heart of

0:29:22.160 --> 0:29:26.600
<v Speaker 1>the city's social scene. The King visited their home, and

0:29:26.640 --> 0:29:29.280
<v Speaker 1>the couple visited court to meet his queen for the

0:29:29.280 --> 0:29:35.040
<v Speaker 1>first time. They hosted fellow aristocrats and intellectuals, including many

0:29:35.080 --> 0:29:40.720
<v Speaker 1>of Margaret's philosophical correspondents. The writer John Evelyn visited Margaret

0:29:40.800 --> 0:29:46.360
<v Speaker 1>several times a week, delighted by her extraordinary, fanciful habit, garb,

0:29:46.440 --> 0:29:51.680
<v Speaker 1>and discourse. John Avelyn's wife did not share his good opinion.

0:29:52.640 --> 0:29:55.840
<v Speaker 1>Never did I see she wrote, a woman so full

0:29:55.880 --> 0:30:02.120
<v Speaker 1>of herself, so amazingly vain and ambitious. Margaret's reputation, both

0:30:02.160 --> 0:30:06.920
<v Speaker 1>positive and negative, was growing by the day. Some of

0:30:06.960 --> 0:30:11.400
<v Speaker 1>her rising notoriety was of her own doing. Eveland's wife

0:30:11.440 --> 0:30:15.000
<v Speaker 1>goes on to say that Cavendish took occasion to cite

0:30:15.000 --> 0:30:18.160
<v Speaker 1>her own pieces, line and page in such a book,

0:30:18.480 --> 0:30:21.320
<v Speaker 1>and to tell the adventures of some of her nymphs.

0:30:22.400 --> 0:30:26.640
<v Speaker 1>Margaret wanted to be a serious philosopher, and beyond that,

0:30:26.880 --> 0:30:31.840
<v Speaker 1>she wanted to be a world. Accounts from the social

0:30:31.920 --> 0:30:35.400
<v Speaker 1>season of sixteen sixty seven make it clear she had

0:30:35.440 --> 0:30:40.680
<v Speaker 1>achieved something close to celebrity status and was recognizable enough

0:30:40.880 --> 0:30:45.640
<v Speaker 1>to be regularly surrounded on the street. Sixteen sixty six

0:30:45.760 --> 0:30:50.600
<v Speaker 1>saw the publication of her most famous work, The Blazing World,

0:30:51.040 --> 0:30:55.320
<v Speaker 1>which we discussed in the introduction of last week's episode.

0:30:55.360 --> 0:30:59.560
<v Speaker 1>Margaret's recognizability, however, did have a little bit more to

0:30:59.600 --> 0:31:03.200
<v Speaker 1>do with her fashion than with her writing. To get

0:31:03.240 --> 0:31:07.720
<v Speaker 1>an idea of what exactly was so daring about Margaret's clothing,

0:31:08.200 --> 0:31:11.320
<v Speaker 1>a letter from a young man who saw Margaret Cavendish

0:31:11.360 --> 0:31:15.640
<v Speaker 1>at the premiere of William's play The Humorous Lovers describes

0:31:15.680 --> 0:31:19.280
<v Speaker 1>her as having her breasts all laid out to view

0:31:19.800 --> 0:31:26.200
<v Speaker 1>and accessorized with scarlet trimmed nipples. Fashionable cleavage was not

0:31:26.360 --> 0:31:30.200
<v Speaker 1>uncommon in the period, but Margaret was taking things further

0:31:30.360 --> 0:31:34.920
<v Speaker 1>than socially accepted. But her style was not without purpose,

0:31:35.680 --> 0:31:38.680
<v Speaker 1>Like her work, she was seeking to emulate the Greco

0:31:38.840 --> 0:31:44.040
<v Speaker 1>Roman classics. Margaret also had a strong preference for black

0:31:44.240 --> 0:31:48.720
<v Speaker 1>patches or mouchet, which were typically worn to cover blemishes

0:31:48.840 --> 0:31:52.680
<v Speaker 1>and make the complexion look lighter by contrast, and she

0:31:52.840 --> 0:31:58.800
<v Speaker 1>fancied accessories usually associated with the masculine, including certain styles

0:31:58.840 --> 0:32:04.040
<v Speaker 1>of hats and vests. Her rise in status culminated in

0:32:04.080 --> 0:32:09.719
<v Speaker 1>a visit to the prestigious exclusive Royal Society, established in

0:32:09.800 --> 0:32:14.320
<v Speaker 1>sixteen sixty. Margaret had actually originally been highly critical of

0:32:14.360 --> 0:32:18.400
<v Speaker 1>the society's approach to science, which she viewed as hubristic.

0:32:19.280 --> 0:32:22.080
<v Speaker 1>Though her visit was arranged by a friend, there is

0:32:22.160 --> 0:32:26.040
<v Speaker 1>no doubt a large portion of the society was unhappy

0:32:26.080 --> 0:32:29.719
<v Speaker 1>with her presence there. Not only was she a woman,

0:32:30.000 --> 0:32:33.320
<v Speaker 1>the Royal Society would not elect a female fellow for

0:32:33.560 --> 0:32:37.440
<v Speaker 1>three more centuries, but she was the most gossiped about

0:32:37.520 --> 0:32:42.600
<v Speaker 1>woman in London, after all, the crazy Duchess. She arrived

0:32:42.640 --> 0:32:46.400
<v Speaker 1>at the Royal Society late in a gilded carriage and

0:32:46.560 --> 0:32:50.160
<v Speaker 1>wearing a dress with a train which, as described by

0:32:50.200 --> 0:32:54.479
<v Speaker 1>one spectator, took up half a road. At least, she

0:32:54.560 --> 0:32:58.200
<v Speaker 1>had to be literally carried inside by her maids of honor.

0:32:58.640 --> 0:33:02.720
<v Speaker 1>Like she was at the mecha. She was roughly a

0:33:02.880 --> 0:33:05.800
<v Speaker 1>decade ahead of her time with address of that style.

0:33:06.320 --> 0:33:10.040
<v Speaker 1>But even more unusual was her decision to pair the

0:33:10.080 --> 0:33:15.080
<v Speaker 1>gown with a masculine, wide brimmed hat. In all her extravagance,

0:33:15.440 --> 0:33:18.880
<v Speaker 1>Margaret walked the halls of the Royal Society, listening and

0:33:18.960 --> 0:33:24.160
<v Speaker 1>learning about their ongoing experiments. Margaret's presence in the Royal

0:33:24.200 --> 0:33:28.080
<v Speaker 1>Society was an experiment in its own way. As she

0:33:28.160 --> 0:33:32.760
<v Speaker 1>observed their work, the men observed her. The woman who

0:33:32.880 --> 0:33:36.880
<v Speaker 1>proudly called herself a philosopher wanted to be an empress

0:33:36.920 --> 0:33:40.880
<v Speaker 1>in fiction, at least, dressed like a performer, and was

0:33:40.960 --> 0:33:46.640
<v Speaker 1>also so shy that she hardly spoke through all her contradictions,

0:33:47.000 --> 0:33:51.360
<v Speaker 1>her greatest desire was to be amongst the greats, to

0:33:51.440 --> 0:33:55.160
<v Speaker 1>have her name on everyone's lips. She knew that she

0:33:55.280 --> 0:33:59.120
<v Speaker 1>was not the most talented or educated writer, but she

0:33:59.160 --> 0:34:02.840
<v Speaker 1>would reach for it nonetheless. As the character of the

0:34:02.880 --> 0:34:07.160
<v Speaker 1>Empress says in The Blazing World, she would rather die

0:34:07.240 --> 0:34:11.320
<v Speaker 1>in the adventure of noble achievements than live in obscurity

0:34:11.400 --> 0:34:18.000
<v Speaker 1>and sluggish serenity. Margaret's time as a London socialite was grand,

0:34:18.520 --> 0:34:21.880
<v Speaker 1>but I imagine given her social anxiety, she felt some

0:34:22.200 --> 0:34:25.759
<v Speaker 1>relief when the couple returned to the country following that

0:34:25.920 --> 0:34:30.200
<v Speaker 1>busy summer. Her focus at this point became editing and

0:34:30.480 --> 0:34:35.560
<v Speaker 1>translating her older works for reissues. In sixteen sixty eight,

0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:38.879
<v Speaker 1>she published what would be her final volume of her

0:34:38.920 --> 0:34:44.759
<v Speaker 1>new work, plays, never before printed. In the early sixteen seventies,

0:34:44.800 --> 0:34:49.560
<v Speaker 1>Margaret returned to conducting her own scientific experiments, as she

0:34:49.600 --> 0:34:56.400
<v Speaker 1>had once done with her brother in law, Charles, though

0:34:56.520 --> 0:35:01.480
<v Speaker 1>she seemed a source of perpetual motion. Margaret Cavendish died

0:35:01.719 --> 0:35:07.640
<v Speaker 1>suddenly on December fifteenth, sixteen seventy three, at fifty years old.

0:35:08.080 --> 0:35:11.720
<v Speaker 1>She had already published more than a dozen original works.

0:35:12.640 --> 0:35:15.319
<v Speaker 1>We don't know how she died, but we do know

0:35:15.640 --> 0:35:19.080
<v Speaker 1>William would constantly remind her to be mindful of her

0:35:19.120 --> 0:35:22.400
<v Speaker 1>health and fought to pull her away from her writing

0:35:22.480 --> 0:35:27.680
<v Speaker 1>to exercise. In an absolutely delightful retort, she once wrote,

0:35:27.920 --> 0:35:31.600
<v Speaker 1>the motions of my mind hinders the active exercises of

0:35:31.640 --> 0:35:35.320
<v Speaker 1>my body. For should I dance or run or walk apace?

0:35:35.400 --> 0:35:38.319
<v Speaker 1>I should dance my thoughts out of measure, run my

0:35:38.400 --> 0:35:41.560
<v Speaker 1>fancies out of breath, and tread out the feet of

0:35:41.600 --> 0:35:47.000
<v Speaker 1>my numbers. William, who outlived his wife after all, assembled

0:35:47.040 --> 0:35:51.759
<v Speaker 1>a posthumous collection in his wife's honor, Letters and Poems

0:35:51.760 --> 0:35:56.440
<v Speaker 1>in Honor of the incomparable Princess Margaret, Duchess of Newcastle,

0:35:57.000 --> 0:36:01.440
<v Speaker 1>which was published just months before he died in sixteen

0:36:01.560 --> 0:36:07.160
<v Speaker 1>seventy six. Margaret's greatest desire to be a world or

0:36:07.200 --> 0:36:11.720
<v Speaker 1>nothing was born out of a fear of becoming obsolete.

0:36:11.760 --> 0:36:15.399
<v Speaker 1>The desire for fame proceeds from a doubt of being

0:36:15.440 --> 0:36:21.439
<v Speaker 1>an afterthought. Throughout the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, Margaret's work

0:36:21.600 --> 0:36:26.760
<v Speaker 1>was not forgotten, but the subject of repeated criticism and mockery.

0:36:27.760 --> 0:36:32.080
<v Speaker 1>In eighteen forty four's Memoirs of Eminent English Women, Louisa

0:36:32.120 --> 0:36:36.799
<v Speaker 1>Stuart Costello bitingly writes, in almost every age there has

0:36:36.880 --> 0:36:42.319
<v Speaker 1>been some such self esteemed phoenix, whose harmless conceit does

0:36:42.440 --> 0:36:47.600
<v Speaker 1>but little injury, but is nevertheless a general annoyance, except

0:36:47.640 --> 0:36:50.799
<v Speaker 1>to the tradesman she employs to print and bind the

0:36:50.840 --> 0:36:55.600
<v Speaker 1>countless volumes with which she delights to adorn her own library.

0:36:56.480 --> 0:37:00.920
<v Speaker 1>Tell us how you really feel, Louisa cai had become

0:37:01.280 --> 0:37:04.160
<v Speaker 1>as wolf. Put it in a room of one's own,

0:37:04.800 --> 0:37:09.440
<v Speaker 1>a bogey to frighten clever young girls with a cautionary

0:37:09.520 --> 0:37:13.359
<v Speaker 1>tale see girls, If you try to write, you might

0:37:13.440 --> 0:37:18.760
<v Speaker 1>become like the crazy Duchess. In more recent years of scholarship, however,

0:37:18.960 --> 0:37:24.879
<v Speaker 1>Margaret's contributions and natural philosophy and fiction have been canonically acknowledged.

0:37:25.400 --> 0:37:29.160
<v Speaker 1>She might be the giant cucumber. Wolf described her as

0:37:29.560 --> 0:37:34.000
<v Speaker 1>crushing her floral contemporaries in the Garden of Good Taste.

0:37:34.400 --> 0:37:37.920
<v Speaker 1>But you can't deny that a cucumber takes up space.

0:37:39.440 --> 0:37:43.160
<v Speaker 1>Margaret was buried in the joint tomb William had purchased

0:37:43.200 --> 0:37:47.520
<v Speaker 1>at Westminster Abbey. He could never have imagined his wife,

0:37:47.719 --> 0:37:51.360
<v Speaker 1>thirty years his junior, would be laid to rest inside

0:37:51.440 --> 0:37:55.600
<v Speaker 1>before he The monument in which the couple now lay

0:37:55.719 --> 0:37:59.480
<v Speaker 1>side by side can still be seen at the abbey today.

0:38:00.200 --> 0:38:04.920
<v Speaker 1>Visitors will see the couple, elaborately sculpted in ceremonial dress,

0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:08.880
<v Speaker 1>lying peacefully next to each other. If they look closely,

0:38:09.000 --> 0:38:12.120
<v Speaker 1>they can see a book and an inkpot in Margaret's

0:38:12.200 --> 0:38:16.160
<v Speaker 1>left hand. Look even closer, and they'll read the inscription

0:38:16.360 --> 0:38:20.319
<v Speaker 1>below telling them that here lies a wise, witty and

0:38:20.600 --> 0:38:24.719
<v Speaker 1>learned lady, which many of her books do well testify

0:38:26.040 --> 0:38:40.239
<v Speaker 1>decide for yourself. That's the story of Margaret Cavendish. But

0:38:40.360 --> 0:38:43.400
<v Speaker 1>keep listening after a brief sponsor break to hear a

0:38:43.440 --> 0:39:02.600
<v Speaker 1>little reminder about one of her forebears. In our earlier

0:39:02.680 --> 0:39:06.640
<v Speaker 1>episode on Lady Mary Roth, the first english woman to

0:39:06.680 --> 0:39:10.279
<v Speaker 1>publish fiction under her own name, we mentioned that it

0:39:10.320 --> 0:39:14.240
<v Speaker 1>would take forty years for another englishwoman to do the same.

0:39:14.840 --> 0:39:20.279
<v Speaker 1>This woman was, of course, Margaret Cavendish. What Margaret had

0:39:20.320 --> 0:39:25.279
<v Speaker 1>feared had happened to Mary. Mary was shunned by society

0:39:25.719 --> 0:39:30.680
<v Speaker 1>after her prose fiction Urania's sixteen twenty one release shocked

0:39:30.760 --> 0:39:35.719
<v Speaker 1>the English Court. One detractor, Edward Denny infamously called her

0:39:36.160 --> 0:39:42.279
<v Speaker 1>a hermaphrodite in show, indeed a monster in a scathing poem.

0:39:42.800 --> 0:39:47.760
<v Speaker 1>In the preface to sixteen sixty four's Sociable Letters, Margaret

0:39:47.800 --> 0:39:53.920
<v Speaker 1>Cavendish quotes the final couplet from Denny's poem to Mary work, Oh,

0:39:54.080 --> 0:39:58.880
<v Speaker 1>the works leave idle books alone, For wise and worthier

0:39:59.000 --> 0:40:11.520
<v Speaker 1>women have written none. Noble Blood is a production of

0:40:11.680 --> 0:40:15.880
<v Speaker 1>iHeart Radio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Noble

0:40:15.880 --> 0:40:19.840
<v Speaker 1>Blood is hosted by me Dana Schwartz, with additional writing

0:40:19.920 --> 0:40:24.200
<v Speaker 1>and research by Hannah Johnston, hannah's Wick, Courtney Sender, Amy

0:40:24.280 --> 0:40:28.400
<v Speaker 1>Hit and Julia Milani. The show is edited and produced

0:40:28.480 --> 0:40:33.640
<v Speaker 1>by Jesse Funk, with supervising producer rima il KLi and

0:40:33.760 --> 0:40:38.239
<v Speaker 1>executive producers Aaron Manke, Trevor Young, and Matt Frederick. For

0:40:38.360 --> 0:40:43.880
<v Speaker 1>more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

0:40:44.000 --> 0:41:22.560
<v Speaker 1>or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.