1
00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:01,280
Speaker 1: Taking a Walk.

2
00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:04,040
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Taking a Walk podcast on Buzz Night,

3
00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,400
Speaker 2: And on today's episode, we're going to take a step

4
00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:10,440
Speaker 2: back into my radio history and we're going to share

5
00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:15,640
Speaker 2: a conversation with my former boss, Dan Mason, the legendary

6
00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:20,520
Speaker 2: broadcasting executive. He steered the nation's largest radio groups through

7
00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,080
Speaker 2: some of the most transformative years in the industry's history.

8
00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,160
Speaker 2: Dan's career in radio spans generations.

9
00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,360
Speaker 3: From his early days learning the business from the.

10
00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:33,159
Speaker 2: Ground up to leading a portfolio of iconic stations across

11
00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,320
Speaker 2: America during a time when the entire medium was being

12
00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:41,720
Speaker 2: redefined by consolidation, new technology, and changing listener habits. In

13
00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,400
Speaker 2: this conversation, we talk about the art of running great

14
00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,560
Speaker 2: radio stations, the personalities and programmers who made them unforgettable,

15
00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,120
Speaker 2: the business decisions that shaped an era, and what Dan

16
00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:57,080
Speaker 2: learned about leadership during times of massive industry change. Whether

17
00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,560
Speaker 2: you lived through radio's golden age or your discovering its

18
00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:05,000
Speaker 2: history now, Dan Mason's story is more than just broadcasting.

19
00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:10,160
Speaker 2: It's about vision, resilience, and the power of connecting with audiences.

20
00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,240
Speaker 2: So let's talk with Dan Mason next on Taking a Walk.

21
00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,600
Speaker 3: Taking a Walk, Well, this is a treat. Welcome to

22
00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:22,600
Speaker 3: Taking a Walk, Dan Mason.

23
00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:24,800
Speaker 4: Glad to be here, buzz a long time, you'll see,

24
00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:26,720
Speaker 4: but I'm always been a fan.

25
00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,959
Speaker 2: Oh the same here, Dan, So you are not going

26
00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:35,920
Speaker 2: to be able to escape our first opening question, which is,

27
00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,959
Speaker 2: actually you'll appreciate this. It's it's turned out to be

28
00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,880
Speaker 2: my benchmark for the Taking a Walk podcast, where I

29
00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,840
Speaker 2: opened it and I asked guests the question if you

30
00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,120
Speaker 2: could take a walk with somebody living or dad, who

31
00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:51,240
Speaker 2: would you take a walk with?

32
00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,360
Speaker 3: And maybe where would you take that walk with him?

33
00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,720
Speaker 4: You know when I saw that on the sheet here,

34
00:01:58,000 --> 00:01:59,320
Speaker 4: I look at that and I kind of had to

35
00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,360
Speaker 4: smile and I had to do some thinking. But at

36
00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,120
Speaker 4: the end of the bought process, I think I would

37
00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,480
Speaker 4: like to walk with Gordon mclindon. And some of the

38
00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,919
Speaker 4: audience may not know who Gordon Mclinton is. I mean

39
00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,360
Speaker 4: time has passed by, but in my estimation he was

40
00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:20,560
Speaker 4: like the godfather of personality radio. Not necessarily top forty

41
00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,480
Speaker 4: radio because there's a lot of people that would claim

42
00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,600
Speaker 4: that thing, but how to get personalities on the radio

43
00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:31,880
Speaker 4: and little twist and turns with creating jingles, contests, promotion,

44
00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,560
Speaker 4: traffic vehicles, you name it. That's and I don't care

45
00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,520
Speaker 4: where I walk, I'll go anywhere as far as that goes.

46
00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,640
Speaker 4: But I would like to talk to him about how

47
00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,440
Speaker 4: he created and what his thought processes were about personality radio.

48
00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,000
Speaker 4: Not top forty because you know there's a lot of

49
00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:53,200
Speaker 4: people that can claim that, but I'm really be interested

50
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,840
Speaker 4: in his philosophy on what he thought about contests because

51
00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,520
Speaker 4: nobody was doing that. I remember if Wa ky Wiman

52
00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,200
Speaker 4: m clinda owned that station. Back in the sixties, they

53
00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:05,760
Speaker 4: came out with color radio. I mean, who would have

54
00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,200
Speaker 4: ever thought that? And obviously it was in contrast to

55
00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:13,560
Speaker 4: color TV. You wanted to make it more bright, more fun.

56
00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,720
Speaker 4: But that's who I would go with. And like I

57
00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,480
Speaker 4: don't care where I go, I walk on a bed

58
00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:20,560
Speaker 4: of nails, I don't care.

59
00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,600
Speaker 3: Would you reflect on them the current state of things?

60
00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I probably would because I'm disappointed, like many

61
00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:34,640
Speaker 4: of us in the business that you know, the personalities

62
00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:41,760
Speaker 4: have been drained from the radio and another generation either

63
00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,680
Speaker 4: hasn't been taught or hasn't been picked up on about

64
00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,520
Speaker 4: what went into that. But you know, I'm even as

65
00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:50,760
Speaker 4: a kid. We can get into this a little bit later,

66
00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,760
Speaker 4: but I listened to Wacky and Looible. That was my station.

67
00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,400
Speaker 4: And I remember, at fourteen years old, Johnny Randolph, who

68
00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,760
Speaker 4: was a program director, was taking me to a drug

69
00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,760
Speaker 4: store for orange juice because I was just into everything

70
00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:11,160
Speaker 4: they did. And my image of them was disc jockey's

71
00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:16,359
Speaker 4: smoking cigarettes and wearying, wearing the purple velvet jacket and

72
00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,800
Speaker 4: you know, having fifteen girls around. But you know, and

73
00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,919
Speaker 4: it's funny that I stood in front of that window

74
00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:30,479
Speaker 4: at WKLO and that was where I eventually ended up.

75
00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,520
Speaker 4: But just you know, begging what somebody come let me in.

76
00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,719
Speaker 4: It's thirty two degrees and snowing out here. Of course

77
00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,919
Speaker 4: nobody let me in. But I even with Randolph, what

78
00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,440
Speaker 4: I would do buzz I would write letters and critique

79
00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,719
Speaker 4: the radio station, and I would tell him the afternoon

80
00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:49,760
Speaker 4: guy should go to all nights, the all night person

81
00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,200
Speaker 4: needs to do morning drive, and blah blah blah blah blah.

82
00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,120
Speaker 4: And can you imagine if he ever told those poor

83
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,280
Speaker 4: guys that this dumb fourteen year old kid was dictating

84
00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:03,560
Speaker 4: the line up at the radio station. But oh it was.

85
00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:05,920
Speaker 4: But I only because I loved the business. I'm known

86
00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,760
Speaker 4: ever since I was twelve years old. I wanted to

87
00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,960
Speaker 4: do somehow be in radio. I'm still going to radio

88
00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,760
Speaker 4: anybody let me on, so I do it all the time.

89
00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:15,719
Speaker 2: Well, we're going to talk about that, and we got

90
00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,800
Speaker 2: to talk about the book also, Fearless, the Life and

91
00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,720
Speaker 2: Times of a Media Mavericks, So we're going to get

92
00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,880
Speaker 2: into that obviously the context of it. But before your

93
00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,400
Speaker 2: love of radio, you had to have a connection, certainly

94
00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:31,360
Speaker 2: with music.

95
00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,320
Speaker 3: Before that, I'm thinking, is that true?

96
00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:38,000
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean I was a top forty junkie.

97
00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,160
Speaker 4: You know, I bought my first record was I Get

98
00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,000
Speaker 4: Around by the Beach Boys. But yeah, I mean I

99
00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,800
Speaker 4: loved hits by the Hits, and I didn't want to

100
00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,600
Speaker 4: hear anything past the top forty. You know, don't give

101
00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,359
Speaker 4: me forty five or fifty. I don't want to hear that.

102
00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,920
Speaker 4: So it's really funny when I would interview program directors,

103
00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,400
Speaker 4: I would say, let me ask you, what's your record

104
00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,880
Speaker 4: collection like? And the people who would say, oh, I've

105
00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,800
Speaker 4: got two thousand albums, I'd say, next, I'm not going

106
00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,760
Speaker 4: to hire you. Not a way that look for the

107
00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:08,760
Speaker 4: I look for the person who said, well I really

108
00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,440
Speaker 4: don't have very many. I mean, you're.

109
00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:15,480
Speaker 5: Hired I love that sneaky question but very indicative of

110
00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:19,360
Speaker 5: someone because I'm sure you ran across program directors who

111
00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,720
Speaker 5: would program a radio station like it was their record

112
00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,800
Speaker 5: collection that they had to play, right.

113
00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,479
Speaker 3: That was always a dead spot, right, Yeah.

114
00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,080
Speaker 4: Deep tracks in deeper and deeper and deeper tracks.

115
00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:36,000
Speaker 3: Equals no ratings. Yeah right. How about the first concert

116
00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:36,640
Speaker 3: you ever went to?

117
00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:38,080
Speaker 1: Oh?

118
00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,560
Speaker 4: Boy, first concert? I was supposed to go to the

119
00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,960
Speaker 4: Beatles concert at Crosley Build in Cincinnati, but it got

120
00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,599
Speaker 4: rained out. We couldn't which had trip I won on

121
00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,800
Speaker 4: Wacky or WKLO, one of the two, But I think

122
00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,520
Speaker 4: I went to maybe maybe one of the Toys for

123
00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:59,720
Speaker 4: Talks concerts that WKLO had early in the seventies. Maybe yeah,

124
00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,400
Speaker 4: maybe late sixties, early seven and something like that. Or

125
00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,440
Speaker 4: they like, you know, the admission price, which I stole

126
00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,279
Speaker 4: that concept for both Washington and Atlanta when I was there,

127
00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:10,400
Speaker 4: but you know, you for the price with a toy

128
00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,400
Speaker 4: that lets you in. So that was and it's back

129
00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,360
Speaker 4: with artists five six, seven artists on the on the agenda,

130
00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:17,600
Speaker 4: you know.

131
00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,920
Speaker 2: So was that the first bit of your not only

132
00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,160
Speaker 2: love for radio, but also love for giving back to

133
00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,040
Speaker 2: communities in terms of charities and doing that work.

134
00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,120
Speaker 3: I mean, is that was that a first taste of

135
00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:32,760
Speaker 3: it for you? No?

136
00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,240
Speaker 4: I didn't. That would be overthinking it for me at

137
00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,480
Speaker 4: my age back then. No, I was there to have

138
00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,800
Speaker 4: fun and listen to music and have fun with everybody else. Unfortunately,

139
00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,800
Speaker 4: I really wasn't geared to that till a little bit

140
00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:47,640
Speaker 4: later on in my life.

141
00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:49,560
Speaker 3: But it's still stuck in your head obviously.

142
00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:51,640
Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, Toys for Toss three concerts.

143
00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:51,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

144
00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,840
Speaker 4: I did this promotion at Z ninety three in Atlanta,

145
00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,320
Speaker 4: and I also did it at WPGC. The exact promotion, Yeah,

146
00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:00,760
Speaker 4: ripped it off from Johnny Randolph, those guys.

147
00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:06,280
Speaker 2: So let's trace from the beginning as being fourteen. So

148
00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,320
Speaker 2: what was the first official job where you were collecting

149
00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:11,880
Speaker 2: a radio paycheck?

150
00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:17,440
Speaker 4: Well, I should insert that at fifteen, I got a

151
00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,960
Speaker 4: hold of a I got a hold of a book

152
00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,360
Speaker 4: that had all the radio stations in Kentucky, and I

153
00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:27,840
Speaker 4: probably sent fifty letters at fifteen years old, handwritten letters

154
00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,239
Speaker 4: saying I can help your radio station, whatever a fifteen

155
00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:33,880
Speaker 4: year old kid would say, And I got an answer

156
00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:36,920
Speaker 4: from all those. Fifty One person answered me. It was

157
00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:41,160
Speaker 4: a lady at a station in Manchester, Kentucky. A Manchester,

158
00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,200
Speaker 4: Kentucky was about one hundred miles from Loyal. I had

159
00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,640
Speaker 4: no driver's license, I had no way to get there.

160
00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,160
Speaker 4: But I was just so excited that the person answered me.

161
00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,720
Speaker 4: I mean it was like, wow, I can do this.

162
00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,800
Speaker 4: So you know, a little by little at the first

163
00:08:55,880 --> 00:09:00,440
Speaker 4: job I probably had was maybe I think a ex

164
00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,920
Speaker 4: W and Jeffersonville, Indiana, or w E K Y and Richmond, Kentucky.

165
00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:07,760
Speaker 4: They all kind of run together. But the first really

166
00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,480
Speaker 4: cool job I had was WVOKA and Lexington. And that

167
00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,839
Speaker 4: was a heck of a media market radio station. Fabulous station.

168
00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,160
Speaker 3: What made it so special.

169
00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,280
Speaker 4: They had, First of all, they had a receptionist on Saturday.

170
00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,160
Speaker 4: Can you believe that I knew I was in high

171
00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:27,000
Speaker 4: cotton at that by the.

172
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:31,000
Speaker 2: Way, in an era and now which you know, there's

173
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:32,800
Speaker 2: no receptionists most of the tunnel.

174
00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:38,520
Speaker 4: No, no, no, They had pafted condition reports, they had

175
00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:43,000
Speaker 4: newsmall biles. They when we did the elections, Bill Steakland

176
00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,480
Speaker 4: was a general manager at that time, and Bill would

177
00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:47,840
Speaker 4: take all of us to dis jockeys out to the

178
00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,440
Speaker 4: Red Lion and eat pizza after the election night was open.

179
00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,840
Speaker 4: I mean, who does that now. I mean maybe they do,

180
00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:55,520
Speaker 4: but I don't know about it. I wish I did

181
00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:57,840
Speaker 4: know about it. But he'd take all the guys out

182
00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,200
Speaker 4: or pizza and coke or beer or whatever. You know,

183
00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,360
Speaker 4: we were drinking and it was it was just and

184
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,000
Speaker 4: everybody contributed and we all went to the we all

185
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,920
Speaker 4: did our remotes from the county fair, County Fair, and

186
00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,560
Speaker 4: it was just a fabulous radio station. And they made

187
00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,000
Speaker 4: They paid a lot of money in their day. It

188
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,600
Speaker 4: was sold accumulus later for a lot of money too,

189
00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:19,160
Speaker 4: So they made it.

190
00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,320
Speaker 2: What did you learn from like Bill Steaklin while you

191
00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,720
Speaker 2: were working for him?

192
00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:27,839
Speaker 4: Well, for sake when we would probably be trying to

193
00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,319
Speaker 4: go to bed earlier than what Bill did. But I

194
00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,640
Speaker 4: haven't said that though he was he love to have fun.

195
00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:35,720
Speaker 4: He's a carrible guy.

196
00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:36,000
Speaker 1: Man.

197
00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,320
Speaker 4: He is a carnival guy. And the staff always loved him.

198
00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,680
Speaker 4: But he was he was amongst the people. Bill was

199
00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,920
Speaker 4: never in a ivory tower. He was like he was

200
00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,920
Speaker 4: walking the walk all the time. And and I've really

201
00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:51,080
Speaker 4: admired him, you know.

202
00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:52,480
Speaker 3: So, yeah, we couldn't make.

203
00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, So then what was next after after that? In

204
00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:57,320
Speaker 2: terms of job?

205
00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,360
Speaker 4: Uh? Well, I probably say out about fifty tapes all

206
00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,360
Speaker 4: over the country looking for a job after I got

207
00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,679
Speaker 4: out of school and I went out of college at

208
00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:10,440
Speaker 4: Eastern Kentucky and Kiril and Saint Charles, Missouri hired me,

209
00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,880
Speaker 4: which was part of the Saint Louis Metro, and you know,

210
00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,599
Speaker 4: it was okay. I mean, they gave me an opportunity,

211
00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,040
Speaker 4: so what I can't say anything bad. So then about

212
00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:24,079
Speaker 4: six weeks later, Chris Bailey, he's passed now, but he

213
00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,240
Speaker 4: was putting on kb Q in Kansas City, and Steve

214
00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,880
Speaker 4: Rivers and I were the original staff at that station,

215
00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:32,880
Speaker 4: Top forty station in Kansas City. There's been an other

216
00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,680
Speaker 4: callers are still there, I think their country. But went

217
00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,280
Speaker 4: from there back to Louisville because I got homesick and

218
00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,760
Speaker 4: wanted to be back in time for University Kentucky football games.

219
00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,840
Speaker 4: And I back at wk LO, stayed there for about

220
00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:52,000
Speaker 4: nine months and went to Z ninety three in Atlanta,

221
00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,079
Speaker 4: and then I think things took off from.

222
00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,199
Speaker 3: There and you went to Z ninety three in what role.

223
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:02,280
Speaker 4: Just says the night jock six and yep. Then eventually

224
00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,360
Speaker 4: I became music direcor and then I became programmers.

225
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:07,800
Speaker 3: So that your first PD job was Z ninety three.

226
00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:13,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, and how fascinating that over time then that would

227
00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,440
Speaker 6: be one of the many stations that you would have

228
00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,040
Speaker 6: oversight over when you ran the cook Inlet properties.

229
00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean it gave me, actually, it gave

230
00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,720
Speaker 4: me an inside track because I knew so much about

231
00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,160
Speaker 4: the market and I knew so much about the radio

232
00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:32,600
Speaker 4: station that I could formulate my own ideas and kind

233
00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:33,960
Speaker 4: of guide it to where I wanted it to go.

234
00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,360
Speaker 4: But we had some really good prepds there. There's a

235
00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,360
Speaker 4: guy Chrys O'Kelly who was there. I don't know if

236
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,240
Speaker 4: you remember Chris. And John Young was there. John Young's

237
00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,680
Speaker 4: been in it was famous in Nashville. He moved to

238
00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:46,840
Speaker 4: Atlanta and he had a great career at C ninety three.

239
00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,440
Speaker 4: So we had in Bob Case came in later on

240
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,760
Speaker 4: after that. Bob was from Seattle. So we had some

241
00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:54,480
Speaker 4: really good program directors there.

242
00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,440
Speaker 2: And when you first went to Z ninety three, was

243
00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,079
Speaker 2: cook Inlet the owners.

244
00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,960
Speaker 4: Well, no, first media was media. This first media and

245
00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,760
Speaker 4: they were our sister stations were ZLX in Boston, Cuban, Seattle,

246
00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:11,960
Speaker 4: US ninety none, Chicago, WPGC Washington, and we had a

247
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:17,240
Speaker 4: station in Provo, Utah and KF and k in Houston, Texas.

248
00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,800
Speaker 4: So you know, they built a really good, solid company.

249
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:26,080
Speaker 2: But you no doubt were focused ultimately on being a

250
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,679
Speaker 2: program director from the fourteen year old that was sending

251
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,800
Speaker 2: suggestions to that point, so you were focused that you

252
00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:35,440
Speaker 2: were not just going to work on the air.

253
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,880
Speaker 4: No, I really I didn't think it was good enough. Didn't.

254
00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,559
Speaker 4: And this is the only business I can do. I'm

255
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,760
Speaker 4: a dismal failure at everything else I do but radio,

256
00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:46,880
Speaker 4: and to get ratings. I can get ratings, and I

257
00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,280
Speaker 4: knew what buttons to push with audiences to get ratings.

258
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,920
Speaker 4: And I did realize early on when I got By

259
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,600
Speaker 4: the time I got the WPGC, there are a lot

260
00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,199
Speaker 4: of the disc jockeys around and I went there this

261
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,840
Speaker 4: program director. I got off the air and then probably

262
00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,439
Speaker 4: not maybe not in me. A year after that, KTSA

263
00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,600
Speaker 4: in San Antonio, which was a KTFM, also we're looking

264
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,280
Speaker 4: for a programming oriented general manager. And I had just

265
00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,200
Speaker 4: at First Media, I had just kind of tapped or

266
00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,240
Speaker 4: cookedn Yeah, it was First Media. I had tapped and

267
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:22,840
Speaker 4: I resigned and I went to KTSA, and I was

268
00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,960
Speaker 4: only twenty seven. So now it's a whole different ballgame.

269
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,840
Speaker 4: I was starting all over from the very bottom of

270
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,680
Speaker 4: the pile. You know, when you when you start, they

271
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,840
Speaker 4: don't care. If you were a hotshot at PGC in Washington.

272
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,000
Speaker 4: You tell us some business manager at KTSA about that,

273
00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,880
Speaker 4: and they'll say, I don't care. They don't care, right, No,

274
00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:43,920
Speaker 4: I don't care.

275
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,680
Speaker 2: But you knew to add the skill set to understand,

276
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,480
Speaker 2: you know, what went into sales and with the whole

277
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,920
Speaker 2: picture of being you know, the person coveting the FCC

278
00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,080
Speaker 2: license and doing what was right for the community. I mean,

279
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,280
Speaker 2: you knew for your next move you needed to be

280
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:03,600
Speaker 2: more well rounded.

281
00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,520
Speaker 4: Basically, I would always get into a job and not

282
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,240
Speaker 4: physically advertise it, but I would mentally think about what

283
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,400
Speaker 4: my next job is going to be to try to

284
00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,560
Speaker 4: prepare myself for that. And I think after KTSA, I

285
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,080
Speaker 4: went back to First Media at KFM K as general manager.

286
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,360
Speaker 4: Great we had a great radio station back then. And

287
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,400
Speaker 4: then cook Inlett took over and I became the president

288
00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,760
Speaker 4: book Inlet and now I'm getting into in front of

289
00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,680
Speaker 4: bankers and good bank meetings. So you know, I remember

290
00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:40,080
Speaker 4: it specifically. One time, the Whitney family was one of

291
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,960
Speaker 4: our partners at cook and the Whitney family from New York,

292
00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,280
Speaker 4: and a gentleman there who ran the investment for the

293
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,280
Speaker 4: Whitney family. We had a bank meeting and it was

294
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,880
Speaker 4: in Dallas, I think, and I was doing this presentation

295
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,120
Speaker 4: and I said, yeah, I mean, yeah, we had a

296
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,280
Speaker 4: great year this year, but you know, first quarter is

297
00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:58,520
Speaker 4: not going to really be good.

298
00:15:58,800 --> 00:15:58,960
Speaker 1: You know.

299
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,120
Speaker 4: I was trying to be honest and forthright, and the

300
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,840
Speaker 4: gentleman pulled me inside. He goes, Dan, let me give

301
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:10,680
Speaker 4: you a hint. There's no market for bad news. Yeah.

302
00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,720
Speaker 4: So I said, yes, sir, I got it. So, you know,

303
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,440
Speaker 4: you learn those things along the way about how to

304
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,040
Speaker 4: present things and do things. And fortunately for me, I

305
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:22,880
Speaker 4: was such a young age, you know that I had

306
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,680
Speaker 4: plenty of time where I wasn't in my fifties, so

307
00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:27,640
Speaker 4: in my thirties. So it worked out.

308
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,640
Speaker 2: Okay, But that's a pointed lesson that he gave to

309
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:31,680
Speaker 2: you with those words.

310
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,720
Speaker 4: Well yeah, he only said ten words. Look I'm still

311
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,880
Speaker 4: repeating them all these years later, I know how powerful.

312
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:39,440
Speaker 3: Yeah.

313
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:45,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, So your time at cook Inlet certainly allowed you

314
00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,640
Speaker 2: further to understand the investment side that was going on

315
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,280
Speaker 2: and understanding certainly the full picture of how to hire

316
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,880
Speaker 2: the right people, because one of the things present company excluded.

317
00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,120
Speaker 2: You knew how to hire the people and the right people.

318
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,240
Speaker 4: I always tried to hire people who were far better

319
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,199
Speaker 4: than me at certain areas. You know, nobody can be

320
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,520
Speaker 4: great at everything. But I wanted the best disc jockeys

321
00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,560
Speaker 4: that money could buy. I wanted the best music directors

322
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,640
Speaker 4: that I could get my hands on. And I would

323
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:23,600
Speaker 4: always still be involved, but I try to let people

324
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:25,119
Speaker 4: do their jobs. I think if you did have a

325
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,720
Speaker 4: background check on me with former people than work for me,

326
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,280
Speaker 4: they would say that, yeah, he would. He'll give you

327
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,520
Speaker 4: the rope to whatever you need to do. I could

328
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,760
Speaker 4: hold my hand up with say, I don't think I

329
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,159
Speaker 4: ever micro manage you or any other program director, but

330
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,679
Speaker 4: you know, sometimes if it doesn't work out and the

331
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,359
Speaker 4: ratings aren't there, they're gone. I was never afraid to

332
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,120
Speaker 4: do that. We asked. We used to when Chris Alberto

333
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,480
Speaker 4: and I at CBS, we used to do a state

334
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,120
Speaker 4: in the station call with the general manager and program

335
00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:58,360
Speaker 4: director and the station was lagging in ratings, what's your

336
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,240
Speaker 4: plan at that plan didn't work, what's your next plan?

337
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,720
Speaker 4: I kind of learned that from mel Karmas ornything. Meil

338
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,800
Speaker 4: would always say, you better have a plan, and we

339
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,360
Speaker 4: would come up with a plant and then it wouldn't work.

340
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,320
Speaker 4: He goes, okay, now what's the plan. But you didn't

341
00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,320
Speaker 4: just not have a plan. Everybody had to have a

342
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:17,720
Speaker 4: plan to success. So I learned that I'm your mail

343
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,080
Speaker 4: credit for that one.

344
00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,680
Speaker 2: Well we'll talk. I have a mail story, I remember.

345
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:29,000
Speaker 2: But uh so cook Inlet ultimately sold to Infinity Broadcasting,

346
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:34,280
Speaker 2: and was that something as that took shape? That was

347
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,800
Speaker 2: a long process for that to happen. I remember there

348
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,800
Speaker 2: was like a hold up period because of Howard Stern.

349
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,679
Speaker 2: I remember that stations had to get you, the FCC

350
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:45,320
Speaker 2: had to bless it and all of that.

351
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,720
Speaker 4: Well, that it didn't come to a way later on

352
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,639
Speaker 4: Infinity CBS merger, but the cook out again is selling

353
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,040
Speaker 4: off radio stations. And I knew that I had a

354
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,199
Speaker 4: contract with a cocaine look. But I went to him.

355
00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:58,720
Speaker 4: I said, you know what you guys, I mean, I

356
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,720
Speaker 4: can see what's going on. That's fine. I mean, you know,

357
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:03,760
Speaker 4: take your money and go. You've been in this investment

358
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,840
Speaker 4: five years now, It's worked out well and it's okay.

359
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:09,800
Speaker 4: So I had to had to pay an exit fee

360
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,800
Speaker 4: to them, not a lot, but a donation type thing

361
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:17,359
Speaker 4: to the Native American Council or something. But then I

362
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,880
Speaker 4: got a call from a headhunter at Westinghouse to go

363
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,000
Speaker 4: to Group W and I had a couple of really

364
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,760
Speaker 4: good meetings there and I left Cook and let to

365
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:28,640
Speaker 4: go to Group WS as president.

366
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,280
Speaker 2: And then it would come come around where Infinity and

367
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,439
Speaker 2: Group W would end up forming together, and.

368
00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:40,960
Speaker 4: Not yet, not yet. What happened first was Westinghouse merged

369
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,639
Speaker 4: with CBS, and I took Nancy Woodman's place. Nancy was

370
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,439
Speaker 4: a president at CBS Radio. Lovely lady that and she

371
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,560
Speaker 4: was getting ready to retire. But she really helped me

372
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,600
Speaker 4: a lot, guided me and showed me where the bodies

373
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:57,480
Speaker 4: were buried and who was going to make it, who

374
00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,040
Speaker 4: wasn't going to make it. Very helpful. I'm always she's

375
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,359
Speaker 4: in the book about say that in the book. But

376
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:08,520
Speaker 4: then after that, we then came along Infinity with CBS

377
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 4: and that merger. That was the merger that you know.

378
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,639
Speaker 4: The FCC argued back and forth that they wanted their

379
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,160
Speaker 4: billion of seven had fined started Infinity before they would

380
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,560
Speaker 4: bless it so, and that's where that came.

381
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 2: When you look at the time, the way the whole

382
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:27,639
Speaker 2: landscape of radio was shifting with deregulation and just the

383
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,840
Speaker 2: way you know, companies were becoming larger. Did any of

384
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,879
Speaker 2: that in your mind? Were you fearful of any of

385
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:36,600
Speaker 2: that at that point?

386
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,239
Speaker 4: Not at the time, because I didn't know what I

387
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,920
Speaker 4: didn't know. I mean, it was always presented that you

388
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:45,359
Speaker 4: got to grow, you got to get big, you got

389
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 4: to get bigger and bigger and bigger. Not sure if

390
00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,960
Speaker 4: that's really that might be true for business acquisitions, but

391
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 4: I'm not sure it's true for radio listening within a community.

392
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,360
Speaker 4: But yet, the powerful group.

393
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 2: Of stations that you would ultimately be in charge of

394
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:08,679
Speaker 2: were dominant in every marketplace pretty much. There were not

395
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:13,199
Speaker 2: many clunker stations, and they owned a large share of

396
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,919
Speaker 2: the revenue, and they were fixtures in their community. Do

397
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 2: you sometimes reflect on that and that part of your

398
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,720
Speaker 2: career and sort of think now where things are and

399
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,159
Speaker 2: how you know, stations and a lot of markets, not

400
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,920
Speaker 2: those stations, but stations and a lot of markets don't

401
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 2: mean what they used to mean.

402
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I think a lot of I think as

403
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 4: an industry we've probably given up on brands. You know,

404
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 4: we put so much emphasis on brands, and now you

405
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 4: got I won't say a company, but I talked to

406
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 4: a person the other day that had a major, major market.

407
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,480
Speaker 4: They had seventeen salespeople. That's it. They were doing eight

408
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,879
Speaker 4: radio stations. They had, oh, they had everything. So how

409
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 4: can how can seventeen people cover all that all that inventory?

410
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,919
Speaker 4: I don't think you can. And I think if I

411
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 4: were starting all over again, I would probably be. And

412
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,919
Speaker 4: national sales aren't really a factor anymore. They're not like

413
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 4: they used to be. You know, at one point at CBS,

414
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,159
Speaker 4: maybe we had twenty five percent of our revenue was

415
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 4: national sales, and that's dwindled down and pass dwindled down

416
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 4: to not very big. I did see a sale that

417
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 4: went through in Tulsa. I was really intrigued by this.

418
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 4: I needed to do more research on it. But Cox

419
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,119
Speaker 4: had been in Tulsa ever since I've been in radio.

420
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 4: They all they owned that cluster there for as long

421
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 4: as I can remember them, and they sold it to

422
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 4: a local doctor that I believe he was an eye doctor.

423
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 4: But the eye doctor kind of grew up with the

424
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 4: station advertised on the station and was in love with

425
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,400
Speaker 4: the stations. He didn't care about national business. He cared

426
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 4: about local brands because that's what built his business, the

427
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 4: local brands. So he bought it. And I think they

428
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 4: put in a longtime Cox programmer who had really good

429
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 4: business skills, and the way they went and I believe

430
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 4: I can't wait to dive in and see how they're doing.

431
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 4: I mean, it's going to take me a little due diligence,

432
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 4: but I think that for you don't have to you

433
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 4: don't have to own Oklahoma City, you don't have to

434
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,679
Speaker 4: own Tulsa. Just own Tulsa, you know, just work on

435
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 4: your own general market. There's money to be made there.

436
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 4: But we'll see where the business goes. But I think

437
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 4: it trends away from national business and more towards local.

438
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 4: I mean, Jeff Warshaw's doing that with Connoisseur. He's really

439
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 4: Piper local now and I think he's right.

440
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,479
Speaker 2: And I think there's a new breed of owners that

441
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 2: are just like you said with the Tulsa example, and

442
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 2: the other example I think we can use is the

443
00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 2: owner of WABC as well. That you're going to see

444
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 2: people who have other businesses who believe radio can support

445
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 2: that business. Maybe it's a little bit of a toy

446
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 2: for them because they're billionaires, or if they don't need

447
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 2: it financially, but they're going to use it to support

448
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 2: and grow their existing core business. I think you're going

449
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 2: to see, you know, owners of sports teams maybe go

450
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 2: down that road, and you know, others in business and communities.

451
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 2: I think that's the next generation of a lot of

452
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 2: ownership in my opinion, I don't know what you think.

453
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 4: I think that anybody who is passionate about a radio

454
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 4: stations within a city would do that, would would go there.

455
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 4: Like you take John cas Matitius at DOE ABC. He

456
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 4: is a New Yorker, he loves New York and look

457
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 4: with that, Look what a job they've done. Is that

458
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 4: station hit aero point six? I believe I look the

459
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 4: other day and they're like a four to one or something.

460
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,959
Speaker 4: But I listen to them almost every morning. I bet

461
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 4: I listened to them three times a week in morning

462
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 4: show to listen to. But I heard John on there

463
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 4: this morning. He saw on his own radio station just

464
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 4: having fun. Well I don't know if he's having fun

465
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 4: with him, but he was talking a lot and going

466
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 4: over what was going on in the city and talking

467
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 4: about the election and everything, and that that's what radio does,

468
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 4: that's what that's what they do, that's what that's really refreshing.

469
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 4: I got to be honest, Like in my car now, buzz,

470
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 4: I don't even listen to music anymore. I listened to

471
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,959
Speaker 4: sports and talk and that's about it. I mean, I

472
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 4: want to listen to music. I'll go five other different places.

473
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 4: And what I don't want to hear is eighteen minutes

474
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 4: of commercials. I mean, we as an industry, we've shot

475
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 4: ourselves like that. I remember when we put Michael o'she

476
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 4: put Cube on the air in Seattle with six minutes,

477
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 4: and you didn't go over six minutes. That's the way

478
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 4: a lot of stations were back then. It was. It

479
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 4: was always like a maybe a ten to twelve minute

480
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 4: out of music time and then say, okay, twelve minutes

481
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 4: plus three promos plus blah blah blah. No, you got

482
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 4: twelve minutes to be out of music. You'd be in

483
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 4: music forty eight minutes. That's what you got to do

484
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 4: if you want to run three promos and you're going

485
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 4: to have to play nine units of commercials. Sixties so Anyway,

486
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 4: that's my theory.

487
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 3: I don't know if you know you know Rashad Tobakawala.

488
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 3: Do you know him.

489
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,959
Speaker 2: He used to work for publicists and he's kind of

490
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: like a business guru strategist now and he refers to

491
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 2: the these as turds in the punch bowl. So I

492
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 2: think there's two turds in the punch bowl that are

493
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 2: going on here. One you mentioned earlier, the fact that

494
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 2: talent has become not as important and not as vital

495
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 2: for radio. And then the other third in the punch

496
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 2: bowl is the commercial load, which is really a frustrating

497
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 2: part of it because no one can quite figure out

498
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 2: really what to do about it.

499
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 3: And I'm not sure they're going to.

500
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 4: I think you hit it right on the hitd You

501
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 4: hit it right on the head. But that is I mean,

502
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 4: we could pontificate and debate all day long, but it's

503
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 4: going to come down to those two issues. No personality

504
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 4: and too many commercials. SIMP.

505
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more of the Taking a

506
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: Walk Podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast.

507
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 2: So tell me what motivated you to write Fearless, The

508
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 2: Life and Times of a Media Maverick.

509
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 4: Well, you could debate the media Maverick part. That wasn't

510
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 4: really my idea to put that word in there, But nevertheless,

511
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 4: I think it talks about just shifting from transition to transition.

512
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 4: You go from an overnight disc jockey to a program director,

513
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 4: to a general manager, to a CEO to what else

514
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 4: did I do? A chairman of profit and nonprofit companies?

515
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 4: To play by play basketball on a national network when

516
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 4: you never broadcast a game on TV in your life,

517
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,439
Speaker 4: and just you know, typical going to acting. I was

518
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 4: in two episodes of House of Cards, but just all

519
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 4: the garbage that I've been through that it's just a

520
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 4: lot of funny stories and there are, and you can't

521
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 4: write a book without giving us some dark side. And

522
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 4: I have had some dark side in my life that

523
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 4: I did put in the book that is not very

524
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 4: pretty to look at. So if you're being honest, you

525
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 4: have to do that. But it's basically it talks a

526
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 4: lot about leadership versus non leadership. Talks a lot about

527
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 4: crazy promotions that I've done over the years, Like one

528
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 4: was back in San Antonio when Doug mo got fined.

529
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 4: Think you got fined ten thousand dollars by the NBA

530
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 4: there's something crazy that he did. We raised dough for

531
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 4: mo and we collected all these pennies, ten thousand dollars

532
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 4: worth of pennies, tried to take them to the NBA,

533
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 4: and of course they ignored us. But stuff like that,

534
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 4: I mean, I mean, who fries an egg on a

535
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 4: sidewalking more when it's one hundred degrees outside? Remember that? Yes,

536
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:51,719
Speaker 4: did that? And they're sleep all the time.

537
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

538
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 4: I remember a time when the song Short People by

539
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 4: Randy Newman came out. We had a short People's party

540
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 4: at the at the Marriott downtown d C. You know,

541
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 4: you couldn't. We had little pigs in a blanket. We'd

542
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 4: had six ounce beers and we had this, you know,

543
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 4: the statue at six Flaves or wherever it says you

544
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 4: can't get into this ride if you're shorter than this,

545
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 4: and we had that. We took that. We got one

546
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 4: of those cardboard cutouts from the amusement park and did

547
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 4: that at the door. I mean, I don't think you

548
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 4: could get by with that. Now that's no rule, but no.

549
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 4: But you know, constantly we're r on television radio and

550
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 4: that was our big dream. Every radio station's goal was

551
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 4: to somehow get.

552
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 3: On the TV news.

553
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, we were always in the news, and whether it

554
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 4: was Boston or at Phoenix. And I remember one time

555
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 4: at Kala, Sex and Phoenix, which now is the number

556
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 4: one radio station. We put that station on the air

557
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 4: as KOPA back in top forty days. It's Steve Rivers

558
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 4: is a program director, but through a couple I think

559
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 4: Reid Record was the program director. Maybe I hope I'm

560
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 4: saying this right Reid. But April Fool's Day they did

561
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 4: Indian Uprising and all the Indians were coming out of

562
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 4: the mountains in Scottsdale and took over the radio station,

563
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 4: and they did such a great production job that it

564
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 4: sounded real. And the Scottsdale police empty their entire stations

565
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 4: up every piece of arsenal they could find to come

566
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 4: down there and surround the station, which we got in

567
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 4: trouble for as a hoax, you know. So yeah, yeah,

568
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 4: well you know who does that these days. But that

569
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 4: the spirit of those.

570
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 3: Times exactly is what you know it was.

571
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 2: It was fearless and people, of course, I'm sure checked

572
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: nudge nudge wink wink with the lawyers in the in

573
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 2: the in the company to.

574
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 4: They we answered the FCC. We said, we had no idea.

575
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 4: We had no idea because if we knew it going in,

576
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 4: we would be in a lot more trouble than we were. Right,

577
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 4: We honestly didn't know and.

578
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 3: We didn't know. So.

579
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 2: But the key also back to getting on TV was

580
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 2: you needed to get the call letters on too, because

581
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,239
Speaker 2: they could always do oh a local radio station did this,

582
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 2: Doug Mouth. But you needed to get the call letters on.

583
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 4: Yeah. Of course.

584
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 2: You know what was your take when electronic measurement came

585
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 2: into the business from you know, the paper diary.

586
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 4: I told and I said this in a book that

587
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 4: I think I made a huge mistake backing PPM when

588
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 4: I did. And Randy Cabrick, God bless him, he would

589
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 4: always be on my case about this because I was

590
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 4: a proponent and Randy was on the other side of this,

591
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 4: and it got so bad CBS end up blocking in

592
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 4: front of our email systems. But he was he was,

593
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 4: but he was right. And Roy Shapiro told me, the

594
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 4: late Roy Shapiro, who is the KYW years and years

595
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 4: and he was running research for the time. He said, Dan,

596
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 4: take that money and put it back into the diary

597
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 4: systems and get yourself more diaries out there, you're going

598
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 4: to have a better measurement system. But no, And I

599
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 4: was so naive to think that a little meter that

600
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 4: you would put on your belt was going to pick

601
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 4: up every piece of audio flawlessly that it came in

602
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 4: contact with. And obviously Voltaire came along it proved that

603
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 4: wasn't the case. But and now, look, I think last

604
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 4: I've read Nilsen was going to an electronic e diary

605
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 4: email diary. They could have could have done that in

606
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 4: two thousand and six rather than what we've been through

607
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 4: with portable pupil meters. But I don't even know do

608
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 4: they even measure with anymore that can a six a

609
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 4: six year old is going to walk around with a meter,

610
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 4: or how about a seventy year old going to walk

611
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 4: around with a meter? Or a forty five year old

612
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 4: businessman is going to go to his his job with

613
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 4: the meter on. I don't believe that.

614
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the reality of the situation is

615
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 2: look sales is so tied to ratings, obviously, but I

616
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 2: believe you were someone who would say, look, ratings go up,

617
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 2: ratings go down. Back to what you were saying about brands,

618
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 2: your brand needs to sustain this and you still need

619
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 2: to hit budget, right.

620
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think that the whole industry became obsessed

621
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 4: with minute to minute tune out, you know, through the

622
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 4: meter that and there was some and I did it

623
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 4: just like everybody else, but I'm not sure that that

624
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 4: was a really good long term strategy because we sacrifice

625
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 4: maybe brand issues. We sacrifice telling DJs that shut up.

626
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 4: And you know, if we ever, God don't forbid it.

627
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 4: We told pierro Berry shut up. I hope we never did,

628
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 4: but maybe we did. I don't know. I don't remember,

629
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 4: but you know, it just doesn't flow right with what

630
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 4: brands are trying to do.

631
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 3: Did you enjoy going back through your career and writing

632
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:10,760
Speaker 3: the book?

633
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 4: You know, yes, the parts that were hardest were the

634
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 4: dark side parts. That was the hardest. But yeah, I

635
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 4: did because I wanted to have some kind of written

636
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 4: account out there. And I'm sure Jeff Schmullien did the

637
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 4: same thing when he wrote that. I don't I don't

638
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 4: know if it'll sell one hundred copies, it doesn't matter.

639
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 4: It's just everything is out there on paper. That's what

640
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 4: I wanted, you know. So I think at every it's

641
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 4: and it would be about a couple of hundred pages,

642
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 4: and it's got some funny stories about Stern, mel Moovez,

643
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 4: all true, different groups. I've had to work with, the

644
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 4: rock groups. It's all there, you know, just's it'll be fun.

645
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 4: You could read it in two nights. It's not going

646
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 4: to be a war and peace novel. It's study quick.

647
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 2: Mail line that I referenced earlier. I remember he had

648
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 2: asked for me to listen to a particular radio station

649
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 2: and because it was suffering in the ratings, and his

650
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 2: line was, you haven't fixed the radio station yet. They

651
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 2: were able to fix the hubble telescope in a matter

652
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 2: of days.

653
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 4: There's a story out there. I think it's true. I

654
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 4: wasn't at the company then with him. He had a

655
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 4: budget meeting and he hired some guy that climb climbed

656
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 4: Mount Everest. And the guy gets up on stage and

657
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 4: of course call the sales managers there and GM's are there.

658
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 4: The guy gets on stage and talking about that what

659
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 4: he went through, to grime and the blooding guts of

660
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 4: what it took to get up that mountain, and Meil

661
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 4: comes back on and says, all I'm asking you do

662
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 4: is make your damn budget. That's pretty good. That's pretty funny.

663
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,760
Speaker 3: It cuts right to the right to the core, no doubt.

664
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 4: That seems pretty easy, doesn't it.

665
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 1: Yeah.

666
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now there's another facet I know that you've been

667
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 2: involved with. Are you still involved on the side of

668
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 2: sports betting in terms of, you know, the business of that.

669
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 4: I bought into vs VSI in I balked about ten

670
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 4: percent of the company and became chairman of the company

671
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 4: in twenty nineteen, and we sold it to DraftKings in

672
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 4: twenty twenty one. So after that, the only other company

673
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 4: I'd invested in on the sports betting side was a

674
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 4: company called Juice Reel is j U I C E

675
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 4: R E e L. It's like a marketplace for people

676
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 4: who want to buy and sell their bets, is what

677
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 4: it's turned into. You know, like you see on Sunday morning,

678
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 4: you get here, the people on the radio saying, twenty

679
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 4: five dollars, let me give you my best best. There's

680
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 4: no accountability there. You don't know if they're winning or

681
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 4: losing or anything. They just get on air and talk

682
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 4: and tell you anything you want to hear. But with

683
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 4: Juice Reel you can actually track the performance of people

684
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 4: in the marketplace, and then you can decide if you

685
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 4: want to pay them or not. They're paid now. Subscription

686
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 4: is free. It's free app, so it's fun to check

687
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 4: out and play with it. I don't know if you've

688
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 4: been on sports, but if you do, you've really enjoy it.

689
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 3: I have, but then it went south so I stopped.

690
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 4: Don't feel bad because the average best better, I mean

691
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 4: the best betters. They only win at a fifty three

692
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 4: percent rate. It's not like guys are out there and

693
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 4: when women and men are out there making eighty percent picks.

694
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 4: That's not happening. So it don't feel bad. If you're

695
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 4: fifty one, you're ahead of the game.

696
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

697
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 2: Now there is another part of what your life is about,

698
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: which involves doing.

699
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 3: Play by play.

700
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 2: That's obviously going back to your first loves and talk

701
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 2: about what that feels like and what you're doing there.

702
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 4: It was It was hard. That may have been one

703
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 4: of the hardest things that I ever had overcome because

704
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 4: I would tease the guys Sean McMahons and his people about,

705
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 4: you know, your guys on CBS Sports Network, they're not

706
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 4: that good. And you know, back then when they first started,

707
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,439
Speaker 4: they really weren't that good. They got a lot better now.

708
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 4: But Sean would listen to me. He goes all right,

709
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 4: And I was getting ready to retire, so I had

710
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 4: plenty of talent to do whatever. So Sean says, okay,

711
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 4: but I got to have a tape. You got to

712
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 4: give me a reel. I said okay, and I realized

713
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 4: I didn't have a reel. I had no reel. So

714
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 4: I go to my alma mater, Eastern Kentucky and begged

715
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 4: for a place on pressure roh. I got that. Then

716
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 4: I talked to my friend Ralph Hacker at University of

717
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 4: Kentucky who was a legendre and play by play, and

718
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 4: I got their engineers so let me borrow equipment for

719
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 4: a night. Then I went to Kyle Macy who played

720
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 4: for the Phoenix Suns who went to the UK, and

721
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 4: he was my color guy, and wah, I mean we

722
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 4: had a team. So I did that, and then I

723
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 4: still didn't have the video part. So I had to

724
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 4: go back to Eastern and get three or four engineers

725
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 4: to help me sink the video in the audio together.

726
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 4: And I presented that to Sean and his guys as

727
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 4: here's your real which really wasn't the true real. It

728
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 4: was kind of a maybe a half reel. So Sean says, okay,

729
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 4: all right, we'll give you guys, we'll give you a shot.

730
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 4: So my first game is going to be January of sixteen. Yeah,

731
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 4: and I was at East Carolina. They were playing USF

732
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,839
Speaker 4: or South Florida. And now it's coming up on November,

733
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 4: and the games in early January. Most of myself always

734
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 4: came early in January or early February because there was

735
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 4: a football basketball override and all the really good guys

736
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 4: robbed doing that, so they needed help. So anyway, I realized,

737
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 4: I tell my wife, you know what, I have never

738
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 4: talked to a producer. I've never been inside of a

739
00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 4: TV truck. I never talked to a director. I haven't

740
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 4: done anything except you get this real this thing that

741
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,959
Speaker 4: I put together, and I bus I bet I lost

742
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 4: fifteen pounds, just sweat no break. So I started making

743
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 4: calls and think I better learn the ropes here. I'm

744
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 4: gonna I'm going to be laughed at. Monetarily, it didn't

745
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 4: make any difference, but my bosses were. It was kind

746
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 4: of not the joke, but it was talked about that

747
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 4: Dan was going to do play by play and they

748
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 4: would say, Oh God, what's that going to be like?

749
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 3: You know?

750
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 4: So anyway, I found a friend who knew of a

751
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 4: National Hockey League crew that could do it. So I

752
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 4: had to pay sixteen thousand dollars for the month of

753
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,760
Speaker 4: December of fifteen, and I had like a five person

754
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 4: crew at six and o'clock in the morning because we

755
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 4: had to be out of there about eight. They worked

756
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 4: with me and had I had a lady as a

757
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 4: stand in, and I had a producer. I had a

758
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 4: director at camera guys, I had stat guys. So I

759
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,959
Speaker 4: was for the month of December. I prepped life hell

760
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 4: and made it through the first season. I'm glad I

761
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 4: got invited back for the second. But eventually I went

762
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 4: on to do two years at Coppon State and then

763
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 4: now I'm doing Shnandoah. I'm in my second season at Shannandoah.

764
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 4: But it's a Division III school with a lot of

765
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 4: the really nice facility, nice setup, and they're a lot

766
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 4: nicer than the network people. Nicer to me.

767
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 3: Isn't it fun doing something that's a little scary.

768
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's part of the book. It's fearless,

769
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 4: you know, it's people are afraid to try, and you

770
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 4: know you got to try. I don't care. You got

771
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 4: to try. You can't just sit back. You got to

772
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 4: give it a shot. But it then work, then that's okay.

773
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 4: You gave it a shot, You did your best. You know,

774
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 4: you go out and play the game, and you can

775
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 4: call your career over when you call it over. Nobody

776
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,439
Speaker 4: else can call your career over for you. Let's say

777
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 4: you get fired at tomorrow from radio station. That's not

778
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 4: the end of your career. Careers over when you say

779
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 4: it's over, not somebody else. So look with yourself. You're

780
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 4: not working directly in radio. Maybe if you're doing all

781
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:10,879
Speaker 4: these other things now, so your career is not over.

782
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 4: When was the last time you had a radio john

783
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 4: day to day?

784
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 3: Oh, end of twenty nineteen.

785
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 4: Okay, there you go. But when twenty nineteen came and

786
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 4: you decided or they decided or whoever decided, that wasn't

787
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 4: going to be anymore, you didn't call your career over.

788
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 4: You said, well, no, it's not over. And look at

789
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 4: you now, you're doing all these other things. Is it

790
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 4: the same as what you were doing? Maybe not, but

791
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 4: you're in the game still, You're in the game.

792
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 2: Well, that's really powerful advice for those who are being

793
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 2: displaced often in the business, because I worry about that

794
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,919
Speaker 2: generation of people who don't know what the next thing

795
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 2: is and they're calling it over.

796
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 4: Let me add one other thing. I was talking to

797
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 4: John Saint Augustine. John's in Chicago. He worked at Jubbigg

798
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 4: and he worked for the Oprah Network. You told me

799
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 4: that he was having lunch with a from the Tribune

800
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 4: and the guy told him that if you can write,

801
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 4: if you can announce or produce, and you know production

802
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 4: skills with the equipment on how to use that stuff,

803
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 4: you're going to have a job as long as you want.

804
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 4: Because now audiobooks are here and all these other different

805
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 4: avenues are here. But you need those three basic skills.

806
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 4: And you look at the people who have been displaced.

807
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 4: They've got those three skills. I know they do. It's

808
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 4: just a matter of applying them in new new avenues.

809
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, well said well in closing, I remember fondly when

810
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 3: I would go visit you at your office there outside

811
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 3: of DC.

812
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 2: Once in a while we would literally go take a

813
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 2: walk and grab a cup of coffee around the corner there,

814
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 2: and those are always great places to explore ideas and

815
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 2: thoughts and conversation. So if I was taking that walk

816
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: with you, I would be asking you the final question,

817
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 2: which would be what leadership advice would you give right

818
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 2: now to those still in positions of leadership in the

819
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:06,760
Speaker 2: radio business.

820
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 4: I think two things. One is, never get too high

821
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 4: on your highs or never get too low on your lows.

822
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 4: That are going to happen to you. And there'll be

823
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 4: people in your highs that are gonna come up and say,

824
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 4: buzz man, you're You're the best man. Nobody's better than you,

825
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 4: buzz and you just got to mentally say thanks, but

826
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 4: don't believe them. Just keep moving. And then when it

827
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 4: when you get through the lows, tell me an NFL

828
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 4: coach that hasn't been fired or let go. I mean,

829
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 4: they're all that's all over the place, and what do

830
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,879
Speaker 4: they do. Look at Andy Reid, the guy that got

831
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,439
Speaker 4: thrown out of Philadelphia. He's Kansas City. He's like a icon,

832
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 4: you know, he's a big dude, and it just evolves.

833
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 4: I think the second thing you have to keep in mind,

834
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 4: what goes up will come down. You don't go up

835
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 4: and up and up and up forever you go up

836
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,479
Speaker 4: you go down, you go back up, you go back down,

837
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 4: and it put things in perspective.

838
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 3: I believe Dan Mason.

839
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for everything over the years, and so

840
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 2: grateful to have you on and certainly be connected with

841
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 2: you on Taking a Walk.

842
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:16,439
Speaker 3: And I'm just I'm so appreciative of knowing you and

843
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 3: having our time.

844
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 4: I just feel the saying, Buzz. I've always enjoyed talking

845
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 4: with you in your terrific programmer, and I love program directors.

846
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 2: And I'm lucky I didn't answer that question that I

847
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 2: had two thousand records in my in my record collection because.

848
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 3: I didn't really how many did you have? A four hundred?

849
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 4: Okay, how many did you actually play?

850
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 3: A two hundred?

851
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 4: Yeah? There you go. Cut your own playlist down exactly.

852
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,919
Speaker 3: Play it at home, Yeah, play that music at home. Yeah.

853
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 3: Thanks Dan, Thank you, Buzz.

854
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a

855
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 1: Walk podcast. Sure and other episodes with your friends and

856
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 1: follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking a

857
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 1: Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and

858
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.