1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky. 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 2: Listener discretion advised. 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: I am so thrilled to be here doing a very 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 1: special episode of Noble Blood. It's really a crossover episode 6 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: with Mira Hayward, who is a former writer researcher on 7 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: Noble Blood and went off to start her own podcast, 8 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 1: which is absolutely brilliant if you haven't listened to it yet, 9 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: it's called History on Trial and it explores in depth 10 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: specific trials in American history that define really I was 11 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: going to say the legal system, but so much more 12 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: just to find an aspect of American history. I feel 13 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: like I learned something new every episode about the foundations 14 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: of this country. 15 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Dana. 16 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 3: It's so fun to be back here at Noble Blood 17 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 3: where I feel like I got my start in podcasting, 18 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 3: back in my Frandsfordnandez and I feel the same way 19 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 3: about it. I'm sure you feel it's about doing Noble Blood, 20 00:00:58,200 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 3: but it's really cool to have a job where you 21 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 3: get to stuff all of the time. 22 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I'm excited to learn something today. We're going 23 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: to be talking about a very very scandalous trial involving 24 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: American Royalty the Vanderbilt but there's also a connection to 25 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: the British royal family. Do you want to give us 26 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: an overview of the case. 27 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:19,479 Speaker 2: Yeah. 28 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 3: So this case is in nineteen thirty four custody battle 29 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 3: over a ten year old child named Gloria Vanderbilt, who's 30 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 3: actually Anderson Cooper's mother, News Royalty. It's between her mother, 31 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 3: Gloria Morgan Vanderbilt, who's in her late twenties and is 32 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 3: like beautiful society woman, and her paternal aunt, Gertrude Vanderbilt Whitney, 33 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 3: who's one of the most wealthy women in America. She's 34 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 3: in her late fifties, patron of the arts, founder of 35 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 3: the Whitney Museum of American Art. And this case is 36 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 3: so scandalous and so shocking for the public. It's the 37 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 3: midst of the Great Depression. People are loving seeing that 38 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 3: rich people are having a hard time too. But interestingly, 39 00:01:57,800 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 3: one of the things I learned while researching this case 40 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 3: was how much royal involvement there was, particularly from the 41 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 3: British royal family. 42 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: Well, let's start there. Let's start with Gloria Morgan Vanderbilt, 43 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: who's the mother of the child that will eventually be 44 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: at the center of this custody case. What is Gloria 45 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: Morgan Vanderbilt's connection to the British royal family. 46 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 3: So, Gloria Morgan Vanderbilt has an identical twin who's named Telma. 47 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 3: And when Telma and Gloria come out into society in 48 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 3: the early nineteen twenties in New York, people call them 49 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 3: the Magnificent Morgans. They're extremely beautiful, they're identical twins. They 50 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 3: have these cute little accents from growing up all over Europe. 51 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 3: They're super beautiful and glamorous. And Telma, after sort of 52 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 3: a disastrous first marriage to an American, gets married to 53 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 3: this extremely wealthy English viscount who is named Marmaduke Furness, 54 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 3: which is an all time British name, an amazing name. 55 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 3: So this marriage unfortunately not super happy, lots of affairs 56 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,959 Speaker 3: on both sides, and in nineteen twenty nine, Telma meets Edward, 57 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 3: the Prince of Wales, and she and Edward start an 58 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 3: affair that lasts for five years and it's pretty serious. 59 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 3: During that time, they're basically living as a couple. 60 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: And is this the Edward, Prince of Wales who will 61 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: eventually become king and abdicate his throne for Wallace Simpson. 62 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, and there's actually an amazing Wallace Simpson connection here. 63 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: So Edward we just know already has a weakness for 64 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: it seems like married socialites. 65 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 2: Yes, it's actually hilarious. 66 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 3: The press starts to have some questions about how much 67 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 3: time in Telman and Edward are spending together. So Gloria 68 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 3: sort of helps facilitate this affair by getting a country 69 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 3: estate that's right next to Edwards so that Telman and 70 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 3: Edward can spend a lot of time together. And the 71 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 3: Press is like he's always seen with the glamorous lady furness, 72 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 3: and the Prince issues the statement where he's like, I 73 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 3: only hang out with married women because it's more respectable 74 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 3: that way, and the Press is like, okay, gotcha. 75 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 2: Oh of course, much more respectable. 76 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so is Gloria Morgan also involved with you know, 77 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: the sort of English court life with her sister. 78 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 2: Yes, very involved. 79 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 3: She actually gets presented at court to King George and 80 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 3: Queen Mary at one point in the early thirties. She's 81 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 3: hanging out with sort of this whole set that's involved 82 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 3: the sort of these glamorous young British nobles centered around 83 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 3: the Prince of Wales. Actually it's a little bit crazy. 84 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 3: So Talma and the princes are involved, and so the 85 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 3: prince also meets little Gloria, the child at the heart 86 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 3: of the custody battle. There's lots of pictures of them 87 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 3: together when she was a child, because he was sort 88 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 3: of her de facto uncle for a little bit. It's 89 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 3: actually through the Morgan's sisters. So Gloria and Talma have 90 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 3: an older sister named Kinswlo that Edward meets Wallace Simpson 91 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 3: because Consuelo is friends with Wallace, and she tells Gloria 92 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 3: and Telma, I've had this amazing friend. You're going to 93 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 3: love her. You'll get along so well. Her name is Wallace. 94 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 3: They meet, they love her, and Talma says, oh my gosh, Edward, 95 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 3: you would love this woman. And it's actually in nineteen 96 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 3: thirty four that Talma goes to America to help her 97 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 3: sister Gloria with this custody trial. Things are really ramping up, 98 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 3: and before she leaves, she has dinner with Wallace and 99 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 3: Wallace who calls Edward little Man, which I guess is 100 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 3: endearing says, you know, the little man is going to 101 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 3: be so lonely while you're gone, and Telma says, well 102 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 3: look after him for me, won't you? 103 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 2: Famous last words. 104 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: So, really the casualty of this trial is because Telma 105 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: had to leave, it pushed Wallace, Simpson and Edward right 106 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: into each other's arms. 107 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. 108 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 3: In nineteen thirty seven, Telma is asked if she regrets him, 109 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 3: if she could do her life over again, what would 110 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 3: she do differently? And she says, I would never introduce 111 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 3: Wallace to the Prince of Wales. So that's the Prince 112 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 3: of Wales's involvement. There's one other British royal who I 113 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 3: want to talk about who is also involved in this trial, 114 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 3: and that is the Marchioness of milford Haven. 115 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: Before we get to the Marchioness, can we sort of 116 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: set the scene for the trial. So why is this 117 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: custody trial even happening at all? Obviously Gloria Morgan married 118 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: to Vanderbilt, good for her, And what is happening that's 119 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: causing this trial? 120 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really interesting. I think it's a classic case 121 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 3: of a trial that didn't need to happen, and perhaps 122 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 3: because of the money and power involved. These people don't 123 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 3: know how to talk to each other in ways that 124 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 3: a normal family might, and so it. 125 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 2: Escalates into this custody battle. 126 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 3: Basically, Gloria married a man named Reggie Vanderbilt. Wealth was 127 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 3: not good for Reggie. He gambled his entire fortune away, 128 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 3: basically almost a billion dollars in fourteen years, and then 129 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 3: he dies a year after. They have their first child, 130 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 3: Little Gloria, and so Gloria and the other Gloria, because 131 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 3: like European royalty, they have a habit of naming all 132 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 3: of their children the same things. Live off of a 133 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 3: trust that Little Gloria inherits, but that trust is really 134 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 3: highly regulated by administrators, and there are questions amongst other 135 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 3: members of the Vanderbilt family if the elder Gloria is 136 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 3: using that money responsibly, and there are accusations that she 137 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 3: is living this sort of partying lifestyle that is not 138 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 3: good for the child, and little Gloria starts to sort 139 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 3: of have these hysterical episodes where she says that she's 140 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 3: afraid of her mother. Her paternal aunt, Gertrude Whitney gets involved, 141 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 3: She's Gloria's godmother. There's so much to this story and 142 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 3: so many sort of complicated women with the different motives. 143 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 3: Little Gloria's grandmother, Laura, thinks that she shouldn't be in 144 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 3: her mother's custody, so eventually little Gloria goes to live 145 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 3: with Gertrude Whitney, and then Gertrud Whitney won't really give 146 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 3: her back to the elder Gloria got it. 147 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: So it's this complicated situation where both the mom and 148 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: daughter are living off this wealthy trust and now the 149 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: late husband's family is trying to I'm putting this in 150 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: air quote but quote unquote protect the little daughter. 151 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 2: Yes exactly. 152 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 3: Nobody of course asks what the little daughter wants at 153 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 3: any point in this, but yeah, that's exactly what's happening. 154 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: So okay, let's go back now to this marchiness. How 155 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: is she involved? 156 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 3: Yes, So this is a woman named Nadezhda Mount Batton. 157 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 3: She comes from a wealthy Russian royal family and she 158 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 3: marries Prince George of Battenberg, who is British Royalty. That 159 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 3: Battenberg gets changed to Mount Batton after World War One 160 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 3: because of anti German sentiment, same as like the sax 161 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 3: Coburg Gotha Windsor transition. The marchioness who's known as Nada 162 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 3: by her friends, which is very cute, is super wealthy, 163 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 3: super beautiful. There's this quote from Little Gloria in her 164 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 3: autobiography where she's remembering Nada when she's a child, and 165 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 3: she says she has masses of maple sugar hair and 166 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 3: light followed her wherever she walked. 167 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, my gosh, I want to 168 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:32,719 Speaker 2: meet her. 169 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: She sounds amazing. 170 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, like the. 171 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 3: Most glamorous woman on earth. And she and Gloria Morgan 172 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 3: Vanderbilt are really close, so close that it ends up 173 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 3: coming up in the trial. 174 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 1: Good to know, Oh, something to look ahead for. Okay, 175 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: So let's start the trial October nineteen thirty four. 176 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 3: So the trial begins in the New York State Supreme Court, 177 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 3: and the second witness to testify on Gertrude's side. So 178 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,839 Speaker 3: on the side that is wanting to take Little Gloria 179 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 3: out of her mother's custody and put her into her 180 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 3: aunt's custody is the elder Gloria's lady's maid, twenty three 181 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 3: year old French woman named Maria Kyo. And Gertrude's side 182 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,119 Speaker 3: has brought Maria on to sort of talk about Gloria's 183 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,839 Speaker 3: party lifestyle and how she stayed up all night and 184 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 3: drank and had wild parties and her friends were doing 185 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 3: who knows what, and so she paints this picture that 186 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 3: is not particularly pretty. 187 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 1: Now that it's a partying mom who's not responsible enough 188 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: to have this little heiress in her custody exactly. 189 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 3: And I mean to go off on a tangent for 190 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 3: a little bit. It's pretty ridiculous because the way that 191 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 3: Gloria Vanderbilt raises her child is the way that basically 192 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 3: all wealthy women at the time were raising their child. 193 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 3: Nanny's did most of it, and they had their social responsibilities. 194 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 3: So Gertrude Whitney was traveling and hanging out with friends 195 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 3: just as much as Gloria Vanderbilt was. But in any case, 196 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 3: something really scandalous comes up on the cross of Maria Kyo. 197 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 2: She has all these. 198 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 3: Allegations about Gloria and don Cross. Gloria's lawyer, Nathan Burkin, 199 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 3: sort of breaks down Maria's credibility because it's revealed that 200 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 3: a lot of the things that she's saying are just assumptions. So, 201 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 3: for example, she said oh, you know, Gloria was drunk 202 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 3: every night, And Nathan Burken says, well, how did you 203 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 3: know that she was drunk? And Maria says, well, she smiled. 204 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: A lot, as most drunk people do, of course exactly. 205 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 2: Nathan Burkin's like, I'm smiling right now? Am I drunk? 206 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 3: Burken sort of breaks down her credibility and it's going well, 207 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 3: but then he goes too far because he feels like, okay, 208 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 3: she hasn't actually seen anything, and so he asks her, well, 209 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 3: you actually never saw anything improper, did you? 210 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 2: Oh? 211 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 3: No, and she goes, well, there was one thing he 212 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 3: definitely should have stopped there, like left well enough alone. 213 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 2: But he says, oh, what could have been so bad? 214 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 3: And so Maria Coyoe tells this story where it's there 215 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 3: in the south of France. She gets Gloria's clothes ready 216 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 3: for the day, and she goes into Gloria's bedroom and 217 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 3: she says, when I came, Missus Vanderbilt was in bed 218 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 3: reading a paper, and there was Lady Milford haven Nada 219 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 3: beside the bed with her arm around Missus Vanderbilt's neck 220 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:11,839 Speaker 3: and kissing. 221 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: Her just like a lover. Oh no, I know the 222 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:18,199 Speaker 2: crowd of course goes crazy. 223 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 3: There's like this soap opera moment just to stun silence, 224 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 3: and then everyone starts yelling and Gloria Vanderbilt collapses. 225 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: Obviously, homosexual behavior would have been so stigmatized at this time. Yes, 226 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: even possibly criminalized, right. 227 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 3: Yes, it was criminalized in New York State and most 228 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 3: other places in the United States and around the world, 229 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 3: and just seen as sort of evidence of perversion and 230 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 3: moral degeneracy, like so many connotations of it that are 231 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 3: extremely damaging to people's reputations at the time. 232 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: And also it's these two incredibly beautiful, glamorous, connected, famous women. 233 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: I can't even imagine the scandal. 234 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 3: Yes, oh my gosh, it's enormous. It makes international headlines 235 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 3: although it's interesting. Of course, the British press is much 236 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 3: more deferential to royals, and so they don't cover it. 237 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 3: They just say, like, there's been some lurid testimony at 238 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 3: this trial. The American press is like, Missus Vanderbilt was 239 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 3: in bed with another woman, and she of course immediately 240 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 3: denies this story, and Lady Milford Haven does too, and 241 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 3: she doesn't say whether she's asked if she'll testify, and 242 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 3: she says, well, I'm going to stand by Gloria until 243 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 3: the end. This is an untruth, and so people think 244 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 3: that she might come and testify. But then the British 245 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 3: royal family sort of goes into reputation management mode. And 246 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 3: Lady Milford Haven is very good friends with Queen Mary, 247 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 3: and she meets with the King and the Queen allegedly 248 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 3: according to reporters, and they tell her you can't testify. 249 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 2: This is a disaster. It's going to make it worse. 250 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: Even if she was testifying to deny it, it would 251 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: just make it everything more scandalous, the coverage would increase. 252 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 2: Exactly. It's good pr advice, you can see. I mean, 253 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 2: I think throughout this they do a good job at 254 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 2: public relations. They know what they're doing. 255 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 3: But they do allow her, and they do advise her 256 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 3: to send a represent to New York to sort of 257 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 3: represent her interests and try to keep her name out of. 258 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 2: The trial as much. 259 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 3: So she hires a lawyer named Theobald Matthew to go 260 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 3: to New York, which also another amazing name. 261 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 2: What's his deal? 262 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: His job is basically just to protect Nada and the 263 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: reputation of the royals. 264 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, So he's a top society lawyer at the time, 265 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 3: and he goes to New York and he meets with 266 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 3: the lawyers on both sides and the judges, and he 267 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 3: says to them, look, it would be for everybody's best 268 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 3: interests that the British Royals stay out of this, and 269 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 3: they all basically agree pretty readily. 270 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: Wow, is there a moment in the case where the 271 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: British Royals would have come up where they sort of 272 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: move away from him? 273 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. 274 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 3: We can see this sort of cover up that might 275 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 3: be too strong a word play out in real time. 276 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 3: So there's a point during Gloria Vanderbilt's cross examination one 277 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 3: of the Gertrude Whitney's side's biggest points is that Glory. 278 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 2: Was always traveling and wasn't present for her daughter. 279 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 3: And so Herbert Smith, Gertrude's lawyer, asks Gloria about all 280 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 3: the time that she spent in London and in the 281 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 3: English countryside in the early nineteen thirties and is pressing 282 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 3: her on this and is like, why were you gone 283 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 3: from your daughter? Little Gloria's in Paris for some of 284 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 3: this time, And Gloria just says personal reasons, which is 285 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 3: code for I was helping my twin sister have an 286 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 3: affair with the Prince of Wales. 287 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 2: With the Prince of Wales, yeah, as one is doing 288 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 2: often when they're in England. 289 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 3: So normally Herbert Smith would be pushing on this, this 290 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 3: is a good point for your case, you're leaving your 291 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 3: daughter in another country. But because it's about the Prince 292 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 3: of Wales, and because Theobald Matthew has said please don't 293 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 3: do this, he just drops it. He just drops this 294 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 3: line of questioning and moves on. 295 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: Which is fascinating because I know that the British press 296 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: is historically and arguably to the present day very deferential 297 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: to the British royal family. But it's amazing to imagine 298 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: that the American legal system but also be sort of 299 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: obeying those norms. 300 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 3: I know, it's honestly shocking to me. There's even a 301 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 3: point shortly after this where Gloria mentions that she borrows 302 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 3: four thousand dollars from somebody so that she could sort 303 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 3: of have some money of her own that wasn't regulated 304 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 3: by the administrators of her daughter's trust. Four thousand dollars 305 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 3: in nineteen thirty four, it's like seventy five thousand dollars today. 306 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 3: It's a big loan to get from somebody. 307 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, a good amount of money. 308 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 309 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 3: And so of course Herbert Smith says, well who are 310 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 3: you getting that money from? And she says, oh, I 311 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 3: don't want to say it out loud, can I write 312 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 3: it down? And the judge allows it, and she writes 313 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 3: it on this piece of paper. She passes it to 314 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 3: the judge, he reads it, He passes it to her lawyer. 315 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 3: He reads it, and then he passes it to Herbert Smith, 316 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 3: who reads it and then sort of melodramatically tears it 317 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 3: into tidy little pieces and throws it in the trash. 318 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 3: And the historical record being what it is, we know 319 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 3: whose name was on that piece of paper, and it 320 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 3: was Edward, Prince of Wales. 321 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: That's so funny that they wrote it down to what 322 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: it wouldn't get written into the court record. 323 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. 324 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 3: The Prince of Wales's name never is mentioned ever in 325 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 3: the court record, even though he plays a substantial part 326 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 3: in both Gloria's lives. 327 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: So obviously, even though the Prince of Wales was a 328 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: pretty fundamental piece of this puzzle, it's kind of where 329 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: Gloria was when she was away from her daughter, whether 330 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: or not that was worth mentioning in the custody case 331 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: or not or worth being a factor, and whether she 332 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: should have custody over her daughter. It's fascinating to me 333 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: the lengths that the American legal system went to to 334 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: protect the British royal family. 335 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 3: I know, it's incredible to me, and it's interesting. There's 336 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 3: a lot of other royal connections in this case and 337 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 3: the legal system, particularly the judge show. In this custody case, 338 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 3: there's not a jury, it's just one judge who's hearing 339 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 3: all of the evidence. And this guy, Justice John Francis Carew, 340 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 3: is pretty self consciously American. 341 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 2: He's born and bred New. 342 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 3: Yorker, middle class and uh doesn't have a lot of 343 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 3: respect for royals who are not British. So at one point, 344 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 3: to sort of establish that Gloria is of good character 345 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 3: and has good friends, her lawyer brings up, okay, well 346 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 3: she's friends with all of these titled people, and Gloria's 347 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 3: sort of naming them and her brother is naming them, 348 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 3: and the judge is like, stop talking about these foreigners. Basically, 349 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 3: he says, let me find the quote. I mean, it's 350 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 3: just oh yeah, do not stress too much on that 351 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 3: exalted and aristocratic nobility, because this little girl is an 352 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 3: American citizen. 353 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: Oh that's so funny. 354 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 3: So for these non British royals, he's like, these people 355 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 3: mean nothing to me. They're not American, they have bad values. 356 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 3: But for the British royal families, he's like, will do 357 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 3: anything to keep them out of the case. 358 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: Is there any foreign royal who does make a good 359 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: impression on the judge? 360 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 2: There is one. 361 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 3: So Gloria Vanderbilt, a year and a half after her 362 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 3: husband's death, meets a man named Prince Gottfried of hoan 363 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 3: Loa Langenburg, who is a German prince. 364 00:17:59,560 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 2: I know. 365 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 3: His friends call him Friedel, and they are briefly engaged. 366 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 3: It doesn't work out because of her crazy mother more 367 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 3: or less, but he actually comes to testify in her 368 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 3: trial and on her behalf, and the judge really likes him, actually, 369 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 3: I think, because he's so honest about how he kind 370 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 3: of does nothing. 371 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 1: He didn't like foreigners, he didn't like foreign nobles. He 372 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 1: thought they were absurd. The British royals he understood, he 373 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: got their whole deal. But this is the one foreign 374 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: noble that he was like Okay, this one's okay. 375 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 3: Yes, And sort of ironically he likes him because Friedel 376 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 3: is really upfront about the fact that he does nothing 377 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 3: and is like a man of leisure and just hangs 378 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 3: out in the south of France in his pajamas all day. 379 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 3: And the judge is like, this is an honest, fourth 380 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 3: raight young man. 381 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: That sounds wonderful. 382 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's so. 383 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 3: The other really sort of interesting thing is that after 384 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 3: his engagement with Gloria Vanderbilt ends, Prince Friedel marries Princess 385 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 3: Margarita of Greece and Denmark, and she comes to testify 386 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 3: on Gloria's behalf in this custody trial in the America. 387 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 2: Can Press is so baffled by this, They're like, why 388 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 2: would you. 389 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 3: Go across the ocean to testify in your husband's exes 390 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 3: custody trial for the ex that's yeah, like wow. 391 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 2: What a woman. 392 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 3: What they don't put together, most of them, is that 393 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 3: Princess Margarita is Lady Milford Haven's niece. 394 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: Oh, so she's also so she's defending her husband's ex fiance, 395 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: but she's also defending her aunt's. 396 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 3: Honor exactly exactly by saying, this woman who's accused of 397 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 3: having an affair with her has an impeccable reputation. 398 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: Oh, I love those sneaky. One thing that you learn 399 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 1: doing noble blood is everyone has a little connection. All 400 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: of these nobles have a connection. 401 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 2: I know. And everybody's related to each other. 402 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: So so the American newspapers at the time didn't find 403 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: that branch of the family tree. 404 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 2: No, and they're all sort of curious about it. 405 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: But there she is, you say, Greece and Denmark, and 406 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: I'm just curious, is there if we're talking about secret 407 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: little links, is there a link to Prince Philip there? 408 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 3: Yes, Princess Margharita is Prince Philip's older sister. 409 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: Oh my god, of course, so he's also related to 410 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: not he was also Nada's nephew. 411 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 3: Yes, So actually Nada and her husband George raise Philip 412 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 3: for a little bit in the early They take him 413 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 3: in and he they sent him to boarding school. And 414 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 3: then Prince George dies and so then Prince Philip goes 415 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 3: on to be raised in large part by his brother 416 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 3: Lewis Mountbatten. But yeah, they are super closely tied in 417 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 3: to that part of the royal family. 418 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: Another point for them having to maintain this sort of 419 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: reputation management. Yes, completely, This is just a fascinating connection. 420 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: I'm wondering. At the heart of this trial is this 421 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: ten year old little girl. How is all of this 422 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: going for her? Do we know? 423 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a disaster. That's I think, like the true 424 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 3: tragedy of this trial is it's extremely traumatizing for her. 425 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 3: She has millions of people hearing these horrible things about 426 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 3: her family. She has to testify herself. The judge lets 427 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 3: her testify in chambers so she doesn't have to do 428 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 3: it publicly, but of course her testimony leaks and it 429 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 3: damages her for the rest of her life. She has 430 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 3: a strained relationship with both her mother and her aunt 431 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 3: after the trial, and members of the family on both 432 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 3: sides blame her for being the cause of this trial. 433 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 2: And she was ten. 434 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 1: How is she that she was ten? 435 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 2: It's unbelievable. 436 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really tragic, and it just makes you think 437 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 3: about all the ways that this could have been handled differently. 438 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: How does this trial end up? 439 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, So, I mean I would recommend listening to the 440 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 3: full episode. I'll give you the full context in sort 441 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 3: of a play by play, but ultimately the judge awards custody. 442 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 2: To her aunt to Gertrude Whitney. Wow. 443 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty shocking, and a large part of that 444 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 3: is because of Little Gloria's testimony. She seemed to be really, 445 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 3: really frightened of her mother, and nobody understood exactly why. 446 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 3: In nineteen eighty five, Gloria Vanderbilt, Little Gloria publishes a 447 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 3: memoir called Once Upon a Time where she basically reveals 448 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 3: that her grandmother, Laura Morgan, so Gloria's mother. 449 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: The mother of these magnificent Morgan twins. 450 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 3: Exactly exactly, and my personal nemesis at this point, basically 451 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 3: schemed to have this trial happen and to have her 452 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 3: granddaughter removed from her daughter's custody in order for Laura 453 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 3: to sort of secure her own place within the Vanderbilt family. 454 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 3: She was obsessed with status and with money, and she 455 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 3: felt like her daughter wasn't deferring to her interests enough. 456 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 3: Her granddaughter was sort of her bargaining ship. 457 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: She threw her own daughter under the bus to use 458 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: her granddaughter as a status symbol. 459 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 2: Yes, she testifies against her daughter at the trial. Oh, 460 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 2: it's pretty terrible. 461 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: So at the end of this trial, little Gloria goes 462 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 1: into the custody of her paternal aunt. 463 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 3: Yes, and unfortunately, tragically it's not any better for her 464 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 3: because I mentioned before, most wealthy women at the time 465 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 3: raise their children in the same way. So Gertrude is 466 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 3: extremely absent. One of her Little Gloria's cousins, Gerda, says 467 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 3: later after the trial, no one cared about Gloria. She 468 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 3: was left basically alone. 469 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: Oh that's heartbreaking. 470 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 2: It's really heartbreaking. 471 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: What happens to her mother, Gloria Morgan. 472 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 3: Gloria is such an interesting character. I think the author 473 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,719 Speaker 3: Barbara Goldsmith, who wrote a great book called Little Gloria 474 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 3: Happy at Last, sort of compares her to a figure 475 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 3: in a fairy tale. That's how Gloria sees herself. Things 476 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 3: happened to her. She doesn't seem to feel she has 477 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 3: any agency, and she's always waiting for somebody to solve 478 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 3: things for her. She and her twin sister Telma lived 479 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 3: together for most of the rest of their lives. She 480 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,479 Speaker 3: lives in Los Angeles for a long time. She has 481 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 3: a relationship with an actress named Keeddy Kevin for a 482 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 3: long time. 483 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 1: I don't mean not to ever speculate on a historical 484 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: figure sexuality. But do we know or know that she 485 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: had romantic or sexual relationships with women? 486 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, we do know that. 487 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 3: Her daughter, at least Gloria Vanderbilt, has written about that 488 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 3: about her mother's bisexuality. She had relationships with men and 489 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 3: with women throughout her life. What's interesting about this case too, 490 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,959 Speaker 3: because Gloria Vanderbilt's sexuality is used against her, is that 491 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 3: Gertrude Whitney was also bisexual and also had relationships with 492 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 3: women and men throughout her life. But of course that 493 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 3: doesn't come up in the trial. 494 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 2: No, it's just about reputation exactly. 495 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 3: So, yeah, Gloria Morgan has a hard time, and in fairness, 496 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 3: I guess to Gertrude Whitney, I do think it's unfair 497 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 3: her child was taken from her, But she also is 498 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 3: not really present for her daughter in a lot of ways. 499 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 3: She doesn't seem to know how to do it. So 500 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 3: even when Gloria gets a little older and wants to 501 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 3: co live with her mother, the older Gloria will just 502 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 3: disappear for weekends at a time and be sort of 503 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 3: absent when Gloria, the younger Gloria turns to twenty one 504 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 3: and gets access to her trust. She cuts her mother 505 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 3: off and they go through periods of not speaking and 506 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 3: reconciling and not speaking and reconciling. Ultimately they do reconcile 507 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 3: before the older glorious death in nineteen sixty five, but 508 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 3: it's a really fraught relationship. 509 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it just seems like the real tragedy of 510 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: this case is the way these adults were using a 511 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: ten year old child for their own ends. 512 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, exactly, And I think that for so many 513 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 3: of the people involved, money and power and status just 514 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 3: warped their ability to sort of see clearly or objectively 515 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 3: and to think about, as you said, the child who's 516 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 3: at the heart of this. 517 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: Well, Mira, this is an absolutely phenomenal case. Anyone who's 518 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: interested in hearing about it in more details should listen 519 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: to History on Trial and just go back and listen 520 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 1: to pretty much every episode of that podcast because I've 521 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: learned so much. Are there any other episodes, any other 522 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: trials that you've highlighted that our particular favorite that you 523 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: want to highlight now? 524 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 3: Oh? Yes, I mean you sort of fall in love. 525 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 3: I'm sure this is the same for you with Noble Blood. 526 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 3: With everything you write about you get into the weeds 527 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 3: of it. One of the ones that I've learned the 528 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 3: most from is about a woman named Iva Taguri who 529 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 3: was known as Tokyo Rose, and she was an American 530 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 3: who of Japanese descent, who got stuck in Japan during 531 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 3: World War Two, ended up working for a Japanese radio station, 532 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,959 Speaker 3: and then after the war is accused of treason and 533 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 3: it becomes sort of this political cause for the United 534 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 3: States government. And the way it was a story I 535 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 3: had never heard before. It made me reflect a lot 536 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 3: about how the government uses its power and who it 537 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 3: uses that power for and against. 538 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: Phenomenal Well, go listen to History on Trial. Mira, thank 539 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. 540 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me, Dana. It was 541 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 2: so much fun to talk about this case. 542 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: Noble Blood is a production of iHeart Radio and Grimm 543 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Nobel Blood is hosted by 544 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: me Danish Forts, with additional writing and researching by Hannah Johnston, 545 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: Hannah Zewick, Courtney Sender, Julia Milani, and Armand Cassam. The 546 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: show is edited and produced by Noemy Griffin andrima Il Kaali, 547 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive producers Aaron Mankey, 548 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Four more podcasts from iHeartRadio. 549 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: Visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 550 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.