WEBVTT - Ep. 09: Catlin’s and Bodmer’s "Time Machine Visuals"

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<v Speaker 1>In the eighteen thirties, two talented painters, George Catlan and

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<v Speaker 1>Carl Bodmer, journeyed into the West and left the future

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<v Speaker 1>a marvelous body of artwork time machine visuals that enable

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<v Speaker 1>us now to form an evocative sense of the early

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<v Speaker 1>West and its primary characters. I'm Dan Florey's and this

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<v Speaker 1>is the American West, brought to you by Velvet Buck.

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<v Speaker 1>Still in barrel. Velvet Buck arrives this summer, just in

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<v Speaker 1>time for the season that calls us home. A portion

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<v Speaker 1>of every bottle supports backcountry hunters and anglers to protect

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<v Speaker 1>public lands, waters and wildlife enjoy responsibly Catlan's and Bodmer's

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<v Speaker 1>time machine visuals. A few years ago, when high Summer

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<v Speaker 1>burned its brief bright flame in Montana's Glacier National Park,

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<v Speaker 1>a friend and I loaded up our backpacks and headed

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<v Speaker 1>off for the Northern Rockies back country. During that narrow

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<v Speaker 1>window and Glacier between July high water and late August snow,

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<v Speaker 1>you can ford the rivers on sunny mornings and sleep

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<v Speaker 1>under star spangled mountain skies. So my buddy and I

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<v Speaker 1>spent four days backpacking across the park from its western

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<v Speaker 1>boundary to Blackfeet Lands on its eastern one. In my

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<v Speaker 1>mind's eye, those four days still emerge in fair detail,

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<v Speaker 1>the adrenaline surge of crossing the Flathead River with a

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<v Speaker 1>full backpack, the thunder and spray of Niak Falls, miles

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<v Speaker 1>of slogging through neck high huckleberry bushes in the best

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<v Speaker 1>grizzly habitat left on Earth, and high elevation nights with

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<v Speaker 1>stars polished to brilliance. There was also the technicolor panorama

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<v Speaker 1>from a top cutbank pass and an unintentional glacide down

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<v Speaker 1>a snowfield which could have ended badly had I not

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<v Speaker 1>pulled out a stand up slide into second base from

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<v Speaker 1>a past life. No one drowned in the Flathead River,

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<v Speaker 1>was rushed by a grizzly, toppled off a glacier, or

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<v Speaker 1>got struck by lightning amongst the peaks beyond my memories.

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<v Speaker 1>I preserve this adventure the way we all do now

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<v Speaker 1>with photographs. What still photographs lack in recreating the past,

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<v Speaker 1>of course, is the ability to engage all the human senses.

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<v Speaker 1>Nayak Falls is a marvel in my shots of it,

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<v Speaker 1>but since this backpack predated smartphones, the falls stand mute

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<v Speaker 1>in my photos, they're crashing thunder now, irretrievable. I have

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<v Speaker 1>one photo from day two, a fresh grizzly scat in

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<v Speaker 1>our trail, but I only dimly recall the primary sensory effect,

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<v Speaker 1>which naturally was the redolent, earthy scent of half hour

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<v Speaker 1>old bearshit. It's fortunate that we humans evolved to be

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<v Speaker 1>such a visual species, though, because I can still conjure

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<v Speaker 1>a sense of this boundary to boundary hike and glacier

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<v Speaker 1>purely from images. That knowledge helps me put aside any

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<v Speaker 1>disappointment that when we try to reach back in time

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<v Speaker 1>and touch the early West, our best time machine for

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<v Speaker 1>that engages just one sense, the visual record, a record

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<v Speaker 1>left to us by artists who were adventurous and talented

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<v Speaker 1>enough to make us believe sometimes that we're standing there

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<v Speaker 1>beside them in the West of the eighteen thirties or

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<v Speaker 1>eighteen forties. The two time machine guys I think are

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<v Speaker 1>the very best for setting me down in their time

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<v Speaker 1>and in the places they saw are George Catlan and

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<v Speaker 1>Carl b Let me tell you a little bit about

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<v Speaker 1>each of them and why time perusing the images they

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<v Speaker 1>left the future just might be ours you don't have

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<v Speaker 1>to deduct from your allotted span on Earth. Sometime in

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<v Speaker 1>the past half century, George Catlan managed to be modestly rediscovered.

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<v Speaker 1>That's something of a miracle for a nineteenth century man

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<v Speaker 1>whose lifetime work was once stored away in a boiler factory,

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<v Speaker 1>then forgotten and left to nearly ruin there. But nowadays

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<v Speaker 1>most people interested in the West and its story no

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<v Speaker 1>Catlan's name and might have a hazy notion of his career,

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<v Speaker 1>even if the depth of understanding is about on a

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<v Speaker 1>par with having heard of Van Go enough to know

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<v Speaker 1>that he cut off his ear. Cocktail party conversation may

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<v Speaker 1>not get at exactly why this Western art was so

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<v Speaker 1>passionate about Indians and the Dutch Ones so committed to

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<v Speaker 1>slicing and dicing his anatomy. But Catlan does have name recognition.

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<v Speaker 1>In Catlan's case, name recognition probably has more to do

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<v Speaker 1>with his subject matter than with his life. Americans have

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<v Speaker 1>a powerful fascination with Native people. From the time of

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<v Speaker 1>the Boston Tea Party down to the Last Grateful Dead concerts,

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<v Speaker 1>Americans have been cross dressing as Indians and sometimes even

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<v Speaker 1>calling on the Native story to help figure out our

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<v Speaker 1>national identity. So most of us are prepared to understand

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<v Speaker 1>Catlan's mission as a painter, which was obsessive enough to

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<v Speaker 1>have inspired Hermann Melville in developing the character of Captain Ahem.

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<v Speaker 1>Because Catlan wrote as well as painted, we know a

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<v Speaker 1>lot about that obsession, which he described this way. I

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<v Speaker 1>sat out alone, unaided and unadvised, resolved if my life

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<v Speaker 1>should be spared by the aid of my brush and

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<v Speaker 1>pen to rescue from oblivion so much of the Indians'

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<v Speaker 1>looks and customs, as the industry and ardent enthusiasm of

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<v Speaker 1>one lifetime could accomplish. He wrote that he sought to

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<v Speaker 1>record nothing less than true and fact simile traces of

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<v Speaker 1>individual life and historical facts. He put that phrase in

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<v Speaker 1>italics to emphasize it. That goal seems noble, maybe more

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<v Speaker 1>than a touch romantic. In Catlan's case, romance was so

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<v Speaker 1>embedded that he struck his peers, fellow painters who also

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<v Speaker 1>went West, like Alfred Jacob Miller, John James Audobon, and yes,

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<v Speaker 1>Carl Bodmer, as a fraud. Humbug was the favored one

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<v Speaker 1>word put down Miller, who had visited some of the

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<v Speaker 1>same tribes shortly after Catlan used it, and so did Audobon,

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<v Speaker 1>who was on the Missouri River a decade after Catlan.

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<v Speaker 1>Bodmer actually advised European friends to avoid Catlan's exhibition, The

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<v Speaker 1>Indian Gallery, which in the eighteen forties was the first

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<v Speaker 1>traveling Western show ever to tour Europe. As for Audubon,

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<v Speaker 1>he wrote of Catlan, I pity him. He could have

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<v Speaker 1>been an honest man. What did criticism like this mean?

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<v Speaker 1>Was George Catlan, the first person to devote his life

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<v Speaker 1>to showing the world the West, its prairies, its great

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<v Speaker 1>herds and their predators, its villages of graceful teps, its

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<v Speaker 1>rivers and maces and bad lands, truly dishonest in what

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<v Speaker 1>he portrayed, or his competitors just expressing jealousy as the

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<v Speaker 1>success he enjoyed with a European tour. Envy I think,

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<v Speaker 1>especially in the case of Audubon and bober had something

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<v Speaker 1>to do with it, But there may have been something

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<v Speaker 1>else going on. I believe Catlan saw the West both

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<v Speaker 1>with his eyes and with his heart, by which I

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<v Speaker 1>mean he had an empathetic sensitivity. Catlan obviously had a

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<v Speaker 1>keen and discerning eye, but more than anything else, he

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<v Speaker 1>was sympathetic to Native people at a time when that

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<v Speaker 1>was not a common reaction for many Americans. Nothing Catlan

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<v Speaker 1>ever did, was easy, and that may be one of

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<v Speaker 1>the reasons he was able to empathize with others. He

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<v Speaker 1>was born in the Wyoming Valley near Wilkesbury, Pennsylvania, in

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<v Speaker 1>seventeen ninety six, and as a young man, trained as

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<v Speaker 1>a lawyer in Connecticut, like most of us do. By

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<v Speaker 1>his mid twenties, it changed his mind about his future

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<v Speaker 1>and found that his true bliss lay in painting, in

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<v Speaker 1>visual representations of the world. So he attached himself to

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<v Speaker 1>the Pennsylvania Academy in Philadelphia, studying to become a history

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<v Speaker 1>painter in the tradition of European academic style. At the

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<v Speaker 1>same time, he fashioned a sort of starving artist's existence

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<v Speaker 1>painting miniature portraits, a skill he would fall back on

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<v Speaker 1>many times in his life among the Indians. As he

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<v Speaker 1>learned about art, he also absorbed the heady world of

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<v Speaker 1>Philadelphia at a time when America was blooming and starting

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<v Speaker 1>to embrace a sense of America as separate from Europe.

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<v Speaker 1>Even exceptional, Catlin was lucky enough to find himself in

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<v Speaker 1>sync with America's new view of itself, even capable of

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<v Speaker 1>articulating a version of that Europeans could love, the United

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<v Speaker 1>States was hungry for some way to identify itself as

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<v Speaker 1>distinct from the Old World, and America's wild natural world,

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<v Speaker 1>along with its indigenous inhabitants, neither of which characterized Europe,

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<v Speaker 1>seemed to offer the best chance for them. As Catlin

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<v Speaker 1>and other Americans studied painting, writers like William Bartram, Ralph Waldo,

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<v Speaker 1>Emerson Washington Irving, James Finnimore Cooper, and Henry David Thoreau

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<v Speaker 1>already were at work on a body of literature that

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<v Speaker 1>would wrap the story of wild nature, Indians, and westering

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<v Speaker 1>adventuring into the country's new definition of itself. What Catlan

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<v Speaker 1>and his contemporaries were witnessing were the stirrings of American Romanticism.

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<v Speaker 1>Romanticism had begun in Europe, and it was another one

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<v Speaker 1>of its exports, but in Catlan's age, it took on

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<v Speaker 1>an American life of its own. One element of Romanticism

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<v Speaker 1>that landed on fertile soil here was the new idea

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<v Speaker 1>that wild nature wasn't the haunt of demons or hobgoblins,

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<v Speaker 1>at all, but in fact was the freshest manifestation of God.

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<v Speaker 1>So people living in close proximity to nature were especially

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<v Speaker 1>graced Thereau, as always was a quick study. Is not

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<v Speaker 1>nature rightly read that for which she has commonly taken

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<v Speaker 1>to be the symbol? Merely? He wrote, isn't nature? In

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<v Speaker 1>other words, the deity itself. That idea's deep internalization in

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<v Speaker 1>the American psyche explains a lot of big picture American history,

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<v Speaker 1>like national parks and our wilderness system, both of which

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<v Speaker 1>were global firsts. As for the idea that humans living

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<v Speaker 1>in a state of nature were blessed our noble savages

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<v Speaker 1>that had a rockier trajectory in a country trying to

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<v Speaker 1>displace the natives. When Catlan made his first Great Western

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<v Speaker 1>journey up the Missouri River in his quest to become

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<v Speaker 1>the historian of the Indian as he put it, his

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<v Speaker 1>eyes saw the great Plains clearly, and his romantic heart

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<v Speaker 1>perceived the resident natives as living in a divine state

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<v Speaker 1>of nature. Catlan thus was willing to make two conceptusizations

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<v Speaker 1>that set him apart from most of his American contemporaries,

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<v Speaker 1>who were interpreting Romanticism quite differently. For one, in eighteen

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<v Speaker 1>thirty two, Catland found the Great Plains and entirely deserving

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<v Speaker 1>an even inspiring romantic landscape. Most of the rest of

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<v Speaker 1>America followed the European tradition and searched for romantic country

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<v Speaker 1>in the Catskills or the Rockies, vertical terrain that reached

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<v Speaker 1>to the divine heavens, which the horizontal Yellow Plains decidedly didn't.

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<v Speaker 1>Catlan's painter contemporaries back east were thoroughly immersed in the

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<v Speaker 1>mountain as the be all and end all of romantic scenery.

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<v Speaker 1>So how interesting it was that in eighteen thirty two

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<v Speaker 1>George Catlan painted the curvaceous, shadow filled plains as a

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<v Speaker 1>soul melting country to my eye, like a fairy land.

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<v Speaker 1>He wrote, journeying up the Missour aboard a fur Company steamboat,

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<v Speaker 1>the Yellowstone. Catlan executed one romantic landscape painting after another

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<v Speaker 1>two Catlans. I've always lingered over to penetrate time and

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<v Speaker 1>visually experience the west of the eighteen thirties. Our Big

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<v Speaker 1>Bend on the Upper Missouri above Saint Louis, and the

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<v Speaker 1>brick Kilns clay bluffs above Saint Louis. These are horizontal,

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<v Speaker 1>romantic landscapes. Catln's time machine visuals make abundantly clear that

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<v Speaker 1>the three predominant characters of the nineteenth century West were

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<v Speaker 1>its remarkable landscapes, the most picturesque and beautiful shapes and

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<v Speaker 1>colors imaginable, he said, a blessed native people, and a

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<v Speaker 1>diverse and charismatic wildlife. Finding himself among those three, but

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<v Speaker 1>with a gnawing anxiety about what was coming in the

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<v Speaker 1>future for all of them, led him to a logical conclusion.

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<v Speaker 1>George Catlan was the first American to call for the

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<v Speaker 1>creation of a Western National Park. Here's how he put that,

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<v Speaker 1>and what a splendid contemplation too, when one who has

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<v Speaker 1>traveled these realms and can duly appreciate them, imagines them

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<v Speaker 1>as they might in future be seen by some great

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<v Speaker 1>protecting policy of government, preserved in their pristine beauty and

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<v Speaker 1>wildness in a magnificent park. It was Catlan's next bold

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<v Speaker 1>step that I think shows why he suffered attacks from

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<v Speaker 1>some of his contemporaries. He went on to argue that

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<v Speaker 1>in such a part the world could see for ages

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<v Speaker 1>to come. The Native Indian, in his classic attire, galloping

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<v Speaker 1>his wild horse with sinewy bow and shield and lance

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<v Speaker 1>amid the fleeting herds of elks and buffaloes. What a

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<v Speaker 1>beautiful and thrilling specimen for America to present des and

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<v Speaker 1>hold up to the view of her refined citizens in

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<v Speaker 1>the world in future ages. A nation's park containing man

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<v Speaker 1>and beast in all the wild and freshness of their

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<v Speaker 1>nature's beauty. Exactly here is where Catlan broke ranks with

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<v Speaker 1>most of his contemporaries. Most Americans expected Indians to melt away,

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<v Speaker 1>to perform a vanishing act in a civilized America. Andrew

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<v Speaker 1>Jackson's administration was already removing Indians from the east. But

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<v Speaker 1>if you engage Catlan's time machine visuals and study the

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<v Speaker 1>great portraits he painted of these Missouri River peoples, the

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<v Speaker 1>Blackfeet leader Buffalo Bull's Backfat and his wife Crystalstone Eagle Ribs.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the extraordinary men of the Blackfoot tribe, Catlan said,

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<v Speaker 1>the crow four wolves, who carries himself with the most

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<v Speaker 1>graceful and manly mien. They tell another truth of Romanticism.

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<v Speaker 1>All these people were noble children of nature. When he

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<v Speaker 1>wrote of them in his classic book Letters and Notes

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<v Speaker 1>on the North American Indians, Catlan compared them to the

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<v Speaker 1>ancient Britons or to the Greeks of Homer's literature, in

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<v Speaker 1>their wildness and romance and color. As he put it,

0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:30.520
<v Speaker 1>America's native people were worthy of admiration, and by all

0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:36.200
<v Speaker 1>that was right and romantic, they ought to endure in America.

0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:39.640
<v Speaker 1>This is where George Catlin was most exposed, and his

0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:44.880
<v Speaker 1>empathetic heart does not resemble Alfred Jacob Miller's or Autumn's,

0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:49.480
<v Speaker 1>or it seems, the universal and not very sympathetic heart

0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:54.840
<v Speaker 1>of nineteenth century America. The Swiss Carl Bodmer, whose time

0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:58.040
<v Speaker 1>machine visuals I want to take up next, knew damn

0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:01.480
<v Speaker 1>well he was a much better painter than Catlan, yet

0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:04.800
<v Speaker 1>he struggled to have his work recognized and most likely

0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:09.760
<v Speaker 1>was jealous of Catlan's successes with his fellow Europeans. But

0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:14.440
<v Speaker 1>the Americans, Miller and Audubon saw the same northern plains

0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:18.679
<v Speaker 1>and native people Catlan did, yet a different alchemy played

0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:24.520
<v Speaker 1>out for both of them. True American noble savages weren't Indians,

0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:29.840
<v Speaker 1>but euro American's gone native like Daniel Boone, are the

0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:35.440
<v Speaker 1>mountain men Miller promoted for that role. As for Audubon,

0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:39.960
<v Speaker 1>who sneered at Catlan's infatuation with Indians. He seems to

0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:43.840
<v Speaker 1>have believed that the iconic American child of nature should

0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:49.160
<v Speaker 1>be John James Ottobon. So Audubon toured Europe with flowing hair,

0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:54.000
<v Speaker 1>dressed in fringed buckskins to present the Old worlders a

0:17:54.160 --> 0:18:01.239
<v Speaker 1>non Indian American noble savage. My other candidate, archdruid of

0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:04.880
<v Speaker 1>the early Western time machine, was not American but Swiss,

0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:08.560
<v Speaker 1>and like Catlin, what he did so critical to a

0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:11.919
<v Speaker 1>visual species like us was to paid a record, in

0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.840
<v Speaker 1>full color splendor, of almost all he saw in the

0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:22.919
<v Speaker 1>eighteen thirties West. His name was Karl Bodmer. Before I

0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:27.640
<v Speaker 1>described Bodmer's wondrous talents and the grand adventure that elicited them,

0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:30.879
<v Speaker 1>let me make the visual case just a bit better.

0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:35.280
<v Speaker 1>On our Glacier Park traverse. My buddy and I both

0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:39.800
<v Speaker 1>kept journals fairly full written accounts, Yet the seventy or

0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:43.400
<v Speaker 1>so photos I shot stand as a far more potent

0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:47.240
<v Speaker 1>way for me or for someone else, to relive the experience.

0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:50.919
<v Speaker 1>I notice when I read it now that my journal

0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:56.080
<v Speaker 1>mostly captures my daily emotional states, but the visual record

0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:59.720
<v Speaker 1>retrieves what the country looked like, the shape we were in,

0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:04.520
<v Speaker 1>how other hikers appeared. The reactions of wildlife are camp scenes.

0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:08.080
<v Speaker 1>I'm a writer, but I didn't write down many of

0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:12.800
<v Speaker 1>those things. Visuals of the world are precisely what Bodmer,

0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:15.560
<v Speaker 1>who had barely turned twenty four when he started up

0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:18.399
<v Speaker 1>the Missouri River in the year eighteen thirty three, was

0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.760
<v Speaker 1>able to bring to an early West that's now a

0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:27.080
<v Speaker 1>ghostly apparition the baseline world beneath all the subsequent change.

0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.600
<v Speaker 1>It's our great fortune down the timeline that Bodmer, who

0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:35.119
<v Speaker 1>is even more obscure than Catlan, brought to his adventure

0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:39.000
<v Speaker 1>both the prodigious energy of youth and a talent that

0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:41.680
<v Speaker 1>far outstripped that of any other painter in the West

0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:47.199
<v Speaker 1>until the Civil War and after. Bodmer's good fortune was

0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:51.040
<v Speaker 1>the adventure itself, which came as a gift of patronage

0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:56.680
<v Speaker 1>from the naturalist adventurer Prince Maximilian of vd nuID, one

0:19:56.680 --> 0:20:01.720
<v Speaker 1>of the great Alexander von Humboldt's prize pupils. At the

0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:05.720
<v Speaker 1>time he met Maximilian, Bodmer was training with an artist's

0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.719
<v Speaker 1>uncle in Prussia and getting by as a painter of

0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:13.080
<v Speaker 1>rivers and castles. Maximilian, for his part, had already made

0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:16.040
<v Speaker 1>a two year trek to Brazil and was planning his

0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:20.320
<v Speaker 1>next great adventure to the interior regions of the Missouri

0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:24.200
<v Speaker 1>in northern America. As he put it, Brazil had taught

0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:28.320
<v Speaker 1>Maximilian an important lesson. He wrote a colleague, I would

0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:31.680
<v Speaker 1>want to bring along a draftsman, a rarity which will

0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:35.240
<v Speaker 1>not be easy to find. He must be a landscape painter,

0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:40.800
<v Speaker 1>but also able to depict figures correctly and accurately, especially

0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:46.199
<v Speaker 1>the Indians. Bodmer's reaction to the Prince's offer, I do

0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:49.360
<v Speaker 1>not doubt that there are many painters who would accept

0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:53.520
<v Speaker 1>the Prince's conditions without objection to be able to go

0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:58.760
<v Speaker 1>on an interesting journey. A loopwarm reaction, maybe, but there

0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:03.880
<v Speaker 1>was a reason. Essentially, Bodmer's life became the story of

0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:08.840
<v Speaker 1>this one fortuitous offer. Later in his life post America,

0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:11.720
<v Speaker 1>he had a somewhat successful career in France as a

0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:15.320
<v Speaker 1>painter of animals and forest scenes, But in terms of

0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:19.160
<v Speaker 1>fame and an enduring reputation, Bodmer today is pretty much

0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:22.600
<v Speaker 1>a one hit band. And the Missouri River in eighteen

0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:26.680
<v Speaker 1>thirty three thirty four is the hit. Maximilian not only

0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:29.720
<v Speaker 1>gave Bodmer his one major trip abroad, it was a

0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:33.040
<v Speaker 1>trip that took him farther into darkest North America than

0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:37.159
<v Speaker 1>any artist had gone until then. When they arrived in

0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:40.879
<v Speaker 1>Saint Louis, the gateway to the West, Maximilian began to

0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:44.520
<v Speaker 1>waffle about whether to explore the southern of the northern West.

0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:48.239
<v Speaker 1>The Santa Fe Trail was now open, and stories he

0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:52.120
<v Speaker 1>heard about New Mexico were compelling. But a fur company

0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:55.280
<v Speaker 1>offer of a Missouri River passage aboard steamboats and keel

0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:58.800
<v Speaker 1>boats as far as Fort Mackenzie, within sight of the Rockies,

0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:05.280
<v Speaker 1>decided maxim on the Missouri. From his uncle, who had

0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:09.000
<v Speaker 1>studied with some of Switzerland's most prominent artists, Bodmer had

0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:13.360
<v Speaker 1>learned some valuable time machine lessons. In contrast to Catlan,

0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:16.760
<v Speaker 1>who painted so rapidly sometimes had brushes in both hands,

0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:21.400
<v Speaker 1>Bodmer was dedicated and careful, often spending an entire day

0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:24.919
<v Speaker 1>on a single piece. The simple truth is that Karl

0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:29.600
<v Speaker 1>Bodmer could paint the Western trifecta, landscapes, animals, and native

0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:33.080
<v Speaker 1>people better than just about anybody else who went west

0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:38.719
<v Speaker 1>for the full time machine effect sometimes spends slow, deliberate

0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:43.480
<v Speaker 1>time and good light with a book like Karl Bodmer's America.

0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:48.120
<v Speaker 1>The range of the guy's skill is breathtaking. While he's

0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:51.760
<v Speaker 1>most famous now for his Indian portraits and I adore

0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:56.680
<v Speaker 1>his landscapes, he probably was best of all portraying wildlife.

0:22:56.720 --> 0:22:59.719
<v Speaker 1>His portraits of the grand creatures of the West are

0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:06.840
<v Speaker 1>un expected and remarkable. Bodmer's bison, whooping crane, coyote, vulture,

0:23:07.160 --> 0:23:12.080
<v Speaker 1>bighorn sheep, pronghorns, mule, deer, elk all come across in

0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:17.680
<v Speaker 1>an effortless and observant perfection. Two of his finished watercolors

0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:21.480
<v Speaker 1>of wildlife Landscape with herd of Buffalo on the Upper

0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:25.720
<v Speaker 1>Missouri and Buffalo and elk on the Upper Missouri, are

0:23:25.840 --> 0:23:30.440
<v Speaker 1>scenes from eighteen thirties life it's hard to recreate, even

0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:34.959
<v Speaker 1>in Yellowstone or in Western movies. As for what the

0:23:34.960 --> 0:23:38.160
<v Speaker 1>country looked like, the first time I saw Bodmer's great

0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:43.040
<v Speaker 1>finished watercolor landscapes, the white castles of the Missouri, the

0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:46.439
<v Speaker 1>first chain of the Rocky Mountains above Fort Mackenzie, and

0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:51.600
<v Speaker 1>most particularly view of the bear Paw Mountains from Fort Mackenzie,

0:23:52.119 --> 0:23:55.159
<v Speaker 1>I thought he captured the early West, with its immense

0:23:55.240 --> 0:24:01.040
<v Speaker 1>feel of uninterrupted space and an unmarred, pellucid black atmosphere,

0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:05.560
<v Speaker 1>better than anything I'd ever imagined. Every time I look

0:24:05.600 --> 0:24:09.320
<v Speaker 1>at those pieces, I still think that, from a standpoint

0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:14.560
<v Speaker 1>of pure nostalgic emotion at what has been lost, Bodmer's

0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:17.479
<v Speaker 1>view of the Bear Palm Mountains is one of the

0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:22.840
<v Speaker 1>truest Western landscape paintings of all time. But the body

0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:26.200
<v Speaker 1>of work that keeps Bodmer's name alive is his marvelous

0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:35.880
<v Speaker 1>portfolio of the Indians of the Upper Missouri aricaras, hedatsas Mandans, Krees, Ascentiboins, Blackfeet.

0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:39.560
<v Speaker 1>He rendered them all and with a discipline and attention

0:24:39.680 --> 0:24:44.520
<v Speaker 1>to detail that made Catlan seem an eager amateur by comparison.

0:24:46.840 --> 0:24:50.800
<v Speaker 1>During the course of Maximilian's and Bodmer's Missouri adventure, they

0:24:50.800 --> 0:24:54.600
<v Speaker 1>spent five weeks among the Blackfeet Ascentiboins in Kreese at

0:24:54.640 --> 0:24:58.520
<v Speaker 1>Fort Mackenzie, where Bodmer did some of his most remarkable

0:24:58.560 --> 0:25:02.119
<v Speaker 1>work among Indians that ca Akatlin didn't even visit, Although

0:25:02.119 --> 0:25:05.800
<v Speaker 1>the following year Catlan would return the favor by painting

0:25:05.920 --> 0:25:10.680
<v Speaker 1>Southern Plains Indians. Bodmer never saw there were other regrets.

0:25:11.280 --> 0:25:14.679
<v Speaker 1>Maximilian's original plan was to winter at this rude outpost

0:25:15.000 --> 0:25:20.000
<v Speaker 1>and penetrate the Rockies the following spring. As European alpinists,

0:25:20.040 --> 0:25:23.320
<v Speaker 1>he and Bodmer were fascinated by mountains, and there the

0:25:23.440 --> 0:25:28.480
<v Speaker 1>Rockies were so tantalizingly close, But hostilities between the Blackfeet

0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:33.159
<v Speaker 1>and their enemies discouraged that choice. Somewhat reluctantly, the Europeans

0:25:33.200 --> 0:25:37.000
<v Speaker 1>returned downriver to the Mandan villages that autumn of eighteen

0:25:37.080 --> 0:25:41.600
<v Speaker 1>thirty three, and here they spent the winter, giving Bodmer

0:25:41.640 --> 0:25:44.720
<v Speaker 1>an opportunity for one of the most haunting visual portrayals

0:25:44.720 --> 0:25:48.119
<v Speaker 1>in the early West. What they couldn't know was that

0:25:48.240 --> 0:25:52.080
<v Speaker 1>there among the Mandans, Bodmer was preserving for the future

0:25:52.440 --> 0:25:56.679
<v Speaker 1>the appearance and vitality and lived experiences of a people

0:25:56.960 --> 0:26:01.000
<v Speaker 1>who would all be dead within three years in the

0:26:01.040 --> 0:26:04.840
<v Speaker 1>winter of eighteen thirty three thirty four. Though the Mandans

0:26:04.920 --> 0:26:08.919
<v Speaker 1>and their great leader Manta Tope had no inkling of

0:26:08.960 --> 0:26:14.960
<v Speaker 1>their fate, Bodmer's methodical work habits now captured scenes, ceremonies,

0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:19.840
<v Speaker 1>material culture, and confident, happy faces that turned out to

0:26:19.880 --> 0:26:25.080
<v Speaker 1>be horrifyingly fragile. When smallpox stalked the river shores in

0:26:25.119 --> 0:26:30.600
<v Speaker 1>the year eighteen thirty seven. As it turned out, Bodmer

0:26:30.720 --> 0:26:34.679
<v Speaker 1>really was a one hit wonder. Nothing in his subsequent

0:26:34.760 --> 0:26:38.320
<v Speaker 1>long life indicates that he had any desire for additional

0:26:38.480 --> 0:26:42.440
<v Speaker 1>historic adventures. He settled in Paris in eighteen thirty six,

0:26:42.720 --> 0:26:45.440
<v Speaker 1>and with Maximilian's help, was able to put on an

0:26:45.440 --> 0:26:49.480
<v Speaker 1>exhibit of his scenes of the West. The reception was disappointing.

0:26:50.400 --> 0:26:53.320
<v Speaker 1>Efforts to get a published version of The Missouri River

0:26:53.440 --> 0:26:57.639
<v Speaker 1>Adventure into print were also difficult. The price of the

0:26:57.680 --> 0:27:03.040
<v Speaker 1>printed version, with complete aquatchans of Bodmer's watercolors was staggering,

0:27:03.520 --> 0:27:07.560
<v Speaker 1>exceeding the annual income of all but the very wealthy

0:27:07.640 --> 0:27:11.960
<v Speaker 1>in Europe. In the eighteen forties, Maximilian offered Bodmer the

0:27:12.040 --> 0:27:15.040
<v Speaker 1>chance to accompany him on an expedition to the Caucasus

0:27:15.119 --> 0:27:20.199
<v Speaker 1>Mountains and Asian Russia. Bodmer refused. He followed that in

0:27:20.240 --> 0:27:23.520
<v Speaker 1>eighteen forty six by turning down a chance to join

0:27:23.600 --> 0:27:29.160
<v Speaker 1>a government sponsored expedition to Egypt. No interest in Egypt.

0:27:29.840 --> 0:27:33.520
<v Speaker 1>Jealous of George Catlan's successes with his book and traveling

0:27:33.560 --> 0:27:37.359
<v Speaker 1>exhibit of Indian and Western scenes, Bodmer decided that what

0:27:37.400 --> 0:27:40.359
<v Speaker 1>he really wanted to do was to throw himself into

0:27:40.359 --> 0:27:43.919
<v Speaker 1>portraying the animals of what he called the primeval German

0:27:44.040 --> 0:27:48.320
<v Speaker 1>forest before they vanished entirely from the face of the earth. Eventually,

0:27:48.320 --> 0:27:52.000
<v Speaker 1>he relocated from Paris to an art colony in Cologne,

0:27:52.240 --> 0:27:55.879
<v Speaker 1>where he spent his life painting animals, publishing books, and

0:27:56.000 --> 0:28:00.560
<v Speaker 1>illustrating books for others, including one by Victor Hugo. Carl

0:28:00.600 --> 0:28:04.520
<v Speaker 1>Bodmer died in Paris in eighteen eighty three, exactly half

0:28:04.520 --> 0:28:08.320
<v Speaker 1>a century after his time in the West. In the

0:28:08.359 --> 0:28:12.600
<v Speaker 1>mid twentieth century, Pulitzer Prize winning Western writer Bernard de

0:28:12.680 --> 0:28:18.760
<v Speaker 1>Vodo rediscovered Bodmer and reacquainted native peoples with him. Descendants

0:28:18.760 --> 0:28:22.480
<v Speaker 1>of the Indian people's Bodmer once painted, then utilize his

0:28:22.720 --> 0:28:29.320
<v Speaker 1>time machine visuals to help them recover their ancestors, their clothing, customs,

0:28:29.359 --> 0:28:33.360
<v Speaker 1>and history. Hollywood has done the same in a variety

0:28:33.400 --> 0:28:38.440
<v Speaker 1>of films, including Dances with Wolves. I think the most

0:28:38.520 --> 0:28:42.040
<v Speaker 1>powerful use of Bodmer's portfolio from the early eighteen thirties

0:28:42.040 --> 0:28:46.960
<v Speaker 1>West has been far more widespread, though, simply by providing

0:28:46.960 --> 0:28:49.920
<v Speaker 1>those of us farthered along in history with a remarkable

0:28:50.000 --> 0:28:54.320
<v Speaker 1>visual record of what the West was once, like, Bodmer

0:28:54.400 --> 0:29:00.320
<v Speaker 1>has enabled generation sense to experience that world. Canoeing down

0:29:00.360 --> 0:29:03.240
<v Speaker 1>the wild and scenic stretch of the Missouri River, I've

0:29:03.280 --> 0:29:07.280
<v Speaker 1>taken copies of Bodmer's works along to compare to what's

0:29:07.320 --> 0:29:12.160
<v Speaker 1>there now and to study and wonder by firelight. As

0:29:12.240 --> 0:29:15.840
<v Speaker 1>Maximilian wrote to a friend in Europe, if only I

0:29:15.880 --> 0:29:20.280
<v Speaker 1>could show you mister Bodmer's portfolio, how many times would

0:29:20.320 --> 0:29:26.000
<v Speaker 1>you exclaim, Oh, excellent, beautiful, beautiful. He now has seventy

0:29:26.080 --> 0:29:28.880
<v Speaker 1>pages of sketches from which you will be able to

0:29:28.960 --> 0:29:35.040
<v Speaker 1>travel very vividly. Just so, I think, for almost two

0:29:35.080 --> 0:29:39.080
<v Speaker 1>hundred years now, George Catlin's and Carl Bodmer's time machine

0:29:39.200 --> 0:29:44.040
<v Speaker 1>visuals have enabled untold thousands of us from another century

0:29:44.400 --> 0:29:49.160
<v Speaker 1>to travel very vividly. Indeed, not just from Europe to America,

0:29:49.560 --> 0:29:53.160
<v Speaker 1>but back in time and into the early nineteenth century

0:29:53.200 --> 0:29:57.600
<v Speaker 1>American West. What a gift to pass on to the future.

0:30:09.680 --> 0:30:14.719
<v Speaker 2>So, Dan, we've been working on a couple projects lately,

0:30:14.760 --> 0:30:17.960
<v Speaker 2>one on the Mountain Men we just released in January,

0:30:17.960 --> 0:30:22.040
<v Speaker 2>and now we're working on one on the Buffalo Hide Hunt.

0:30:23.200 --> 0:30:27.080
<v Speaker 2>And in the Mountain Man, I kept bumping into Catlan

0:30:27.320 --> 0:30:31.040
<v Speaker 2>references to Catlin obviously, like he's this figure that captures

0:30:31.160 --> 0:30:36.720
<v Speaker 2>this moment in time. And then the other day I

0:30:36.760 --> 0:30:42.200
<v Speaker 2>was reading old newspapers and I read this fantastic description

0:30:42.560 --> 0:30:45.520
<v Speaker 2>of a hunt, you know, and I get to the

0:30:45.600 --> 0:30:48.600
<v Speaker 2>end of it and it signed George Catlin, and it

0:30:48.640 --> 0:30:50.520
<v Speaker 2>was a letter that had sent to the editors of

0:30:50.560 --> 0:30:54.720
<v Speaker 2>this paper. And so I think one thing that's always

0:30:54.720 --> 0:30:56.960
<v Speaker 2>struck me about him is just how prolific he was.

0:30:57.240 --> 0:31:02.560
<v Speaker 2>And in my mind, he's sort of this faceless wealth

0:31:02.640 --> 0:31:05.840
<v Speaker 2>of information, this fountain of information from the West. But

0:31:05.880 --> 0:31:08.480
<v Speaker 2>I thought was, at least for me, I was interested

0:31:08.520 --> 0:31:11.840
<v Speaker 2>by your descriptions of sort of the interpersonal rivalries that

0:31:11.880 --> 0:31:13.880
<v Speaker 2>these guys had, because it wasn't.

0:31:14.080 --> 0:31:15.640
<v Speaker 3>That there was hacking on each other.

0:31:15.840 --> 0:31:17.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that was a shock to me.

0:31:17.960 --> 0:31:20.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because for me, for me, Catlan is kind of

0:31:20.760 --> 0:31:26.200
<v Speaker 2>just like this this very even keeled, sort of tell

0:31:26.240 --> 0:31:28.040
<v Speaker 2>it like it is, you know, almost like a Walter

0:31:28.120 --> 0:31:30.160
<v Speaker 2>Cronkite type figure. But this was this was sort of.

0:31:31.400 --> 0:31:36.959
<v Speaker 1>All that, right. Yeah, Yeah, you know, he's he's uh,

0:31:37.800 --> 0:31:47.640
<v Speaker 1>he's a pretty startlingly obscure figure for a lot of people,

0:31:48.320 --> 0:31:52.200
<v Speaker 1>given how present he was in the nineteenth century. As

0:31:52.200 --> 0:31:54.640
<v Speaker 1>you say, you can kind of just read, you know,

0:31:54.720 --> 0:31:58.840
<v Speaker 1>some eighteen thirties newspaper article and uh be shocked by

0:31:58.840 --> 0:32:04.320
<v Speaker 1>the fact. Well, George Kallin submitted this piece and his

0:32:04.760 --> 0:32:07.760
<v Speaker 1>famous book Letters and Notes, which is in two volumes,

0:32:07.760 --> 0:32:11.480
<v Speaker 1>by the way, on the North American Indians. Essentially, that's

0:32:11.560 --> 0:32:15.600
<v Speaker 1>what that book is. It's these sort of newspaper length

0:32:15.800 --> 0:32:20.440
<v Speaker 1>stories that he was sending into newspapers in the East,

0:32:20.920 --> 0:32:25.200
<v Speaker 1>along with his hastily quickly done watercolors to illustrate them,

0:32:25.600 --> 0:32:30.800
<v Speaker 1>and he assemble those ultimately in a book. So's he

0:32:30.960 --> 0:32:34.880
<v Speaker 1>should be probably a lot better known than he is.

0:32:35.880 --> 0:32:40.400
<v Speaker 1>But you're right. One of the things that is true

0:32:40.440 --> 0:32:42.920
<v Speaker 1>of his career is that a lot of the other

0:32:43.640 --> 0:32:48.640
<v Speaker 1>painters of the time, Alfred Jacob Miller, Bodmer himself, the

0:32:48.680 --> 0:32:54.000
<v Speaker 1>Swiss artists, who is also a feature in this particular episode,

0:32:54.640 --> 0:32:59.320
<v Speaker 1>and especially John James Ottobon, you know, I mean, they

0:32:59.480 --> 0:33:04.800
<v Speaker 1>kind of ink of Catlan as this quack figure and

0:33:04.840 --> 0:33:07.880
<v Speaker 1>they say very unkind things about him. You know. Evidently,

0:33:08.040 --> 0:33:10.360
<v Speaker 1>one of the common words of Progrium back in the

0:33:10.440 --> 0:33:13.200
<v Speaker 1>nineteenth century was humbug oh, which.

0:33:13.000 --> 0:33:17.760
<v Speaker 3>I thought was strictly you know, Ebenezer screws. Other people

0:33:17.800 --> 0:33:20.160
<v Speaker 3>would run around seeing humbug too. I had no idea.

0:33:20.800 --> 0:33:23.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah that was a Charles Dickens bring him back.

0:33:24.200 --> 0:33:28.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah it sounds like Dickens, but it actually predates Dickens.

0:33:28.520 --> 0:33:33.440
<v Speaker 1>Because George Catlan got in a lot. He hits this humbug.

0:33:33.520 --> 0:33:37.000
<v Speaker 1>You know, he's just that was just a bunch of bullshit.

0:33:37.160 --> 0:33:40.640
<v Speaker 1>He was. He's a complete loser and uh, you know,

0:33:40.840 --> 0:33:43.760
<v Speaker 1>and then Oudoban says that strange thing about him. He

0:33:43.800 --> 0:33:46.920
<v Speaker 1>could have been an honest man. I feel sorry for him.

0:33:46.960 --> 0:33:49.200
<v Speaker 1>He could have been an honest man. Now I will

0:33:49.320 --> 0:33:52.080
<v Speaker 1>say about Audubun so because one of the episodes is

0:33:52.080 --> 0:33:53.800
<v Speaker 1>going to be about Autobun and I talk about this

0:33:53.840 --> 0:33:57.320
<v Speaker 1>a little bit. Ottoman was not generous about other people.

0:33:57.360 --> 0:33:59.800
<v Speaker 1>He tended to be kind of jealous of everybody else

0:34:00.160 --> 0:34:03.920
<v Speaker 1>whoever made any kind of accomplishments. So that can be

0:34:04.040 --> 0:34:07.400
<v Speaker 1>discounted a little bit. But Carl Bodmer in Europe, because

0:34:07.480 --> 0:34:10.239
<v Speaker 1>Catlan is the guy who he's the first American who

0:34:10.280 --> 0:34:14.520
<v Speaker 1>has a traveling exhibit of the West in Europe in

0:34:14.600 --> 0:34:17.000
<v Speaker 1>the eighteen thirties and eighteen forties, and a ton of

0:34:17.040 --> 0:34:22.120
<v Speaker 1>Europeans who end up coming to America acquire their fascination

0:34:22.600 --> 0:34:26.080
<v Speaker 1>with the West by going to George Catlan's Indian Gallery.

0:34:26.600 --> 0:34:29.400
<v Speaker 1>And I mean Catlan took three or four Native people

0:34:29.520 --> 0:34:33.600
<v Speaker 1>with him, sort of like you know, Buffalo Bill did

0:34:34.360 --> 0:34:36.920
<v Speaker 1>with his Wild West. I mean, he took Native people

0:34:36.960 --> 0:34:41.440
<v Speaker 1>with him and they did ceremonies on stage. And yet

0:34:41.640 --> 0:34:47.360
<v Speaker 1>even Bodmer, who is a European himself, encouraged his friends

0:34:47.360 --> 0:34:53.080
<v Speaker 1>not to go see Catlan's show. So Catlan was clearly

0:34:53.120 --> 0:34:56.600
<v Speaker 1>a guy who is maybe a little too successful in

0:34:56.719 --> 0:35:02.600
<v Speaker 1>winning over followers. And yet at the same time he

0:35:03.320 --> 0:35:07.480
<v Speaker 1>did something pretty remarkable. I mean he went up the

0:35:07.480 --> 0:35:13.080
<v Speaker 1>Missouri River with the fur trading companies, usually on their steamboats.

0:35:13.080 --> 0:35:17.160
<v Speaker 1>That was a safe way for these people who wanted

0:35:17.200 --> 0:35:23.719
<v Speaker 1>to go west to travel. And he basically painted portraits

0:35:23.760 --> 0:35:26.800
<v Speaker 1>of half the people, half the Native people in the West.

0:35:27.160 --> 0:35:30.919
<v Speaker 1>And of course he is famous among conservationists these days

0:35:30.920 --> 0:35:32.799
<v Speaker 1>because he's the first American to ever call for a

0:35:32.880 --> 0:35:36.320
<v Speaker 1>national park. He wants the government to create a national

0:35:36.360 --> 0:35:39.239
<v Speaker 1>park on the Great Plains. But what he wants is

0:35:39.239 --> 0:35:41.560
<v Speaker 1>a different kind of national park than we think of today.

0:35:41.600 --> 0:35:45.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we created national parks in Yellowstone and glacier

0:35:45.480 --> 0:35:50.479
<v Speaker 1>and kindly invited the native people to leave. Catalan wants

0:35:50.480 --> 0:35:53.680
<v Speaker 1>a national park where it's all about the native people

0:35:53.760 --> 0:35:58.440
<v Speaker 1>still practicing their original culture and hunting the animals they hunted,

0:35:58.480 --> 0:36:01.120
<v Speaker 1>and so he has a different front idea about a

0:36:01.200 --> 0:36:03.719
<v Speaker 1>national park, but he does get credit for being the

0:36:03.719 --> 0:36:05.800
<v Speaker 1>first person to ever propose one in America.

0:36:06.280 --> 0:36:10.160
<v Speaker 3>I thought about that in your episode, and I had

0:36:10.160 --> 0:36:16.640
<v Speaker 3>read that about Catlan before, and it seemed like like

0:36:16.640 --> 0:36:20.880
<v Speaker 3>an outlandish idea until I thought about this. Around the world,

0:36:21.640 --> 0:36:24.480
<v Speaker 3>there are a handful example of examples of kind of

0:36:24.480 --> 0:36:28.799
<v Speaker 3>what he was talking about. You go, like the there's

0:36:28.920 --> 0:36:33.440
<v Speaker 3>autonomous zones. So along the border with Afghanistan and Pakistan

0:36:33.520 --> 0:36:36.120
<v Speaker 3>you have what they call the tribal areas or autonomous zones.

0:36:36.800 --> 0:36:40.880
<v Speaker 3>In Brazil, near the Brazil border with Colombia, you have

0:36:40.960 --> 0:36:48.560
<v Speaker 3>autonomous zones which are like hunter gatherer groups doing their

0:36:48.560 --> 0:36:54.799
<v Speaker 3>own government. They're living within a geopolitical boundary, but their

0:36:55.160 --> 0:36:58.440
<v Speaker 3>crimes aren't investigated, you know, they their own system of

0:36:58.480 --> 0:37:03.640
<v Speaker 3>government prevails in their area. Sentinel Island in the Pacific.

0:37:03.280 --> 0:37:06.280
<v Speaker 1>Nicaragua has one where it's.

0:37:06.480 --> 0:37:09.279
<v Speaker 3>It's like you're within a broader geopolitical bound but there

0:37:09.320 --> 0:37:12.880
<v Speaker 3>is a place where like native culture. The difference there

0:37:13.120 --> 0:37:19.560
<v Speaker 3>is what makes those places work is that you don't visit. Yeah,

0:37:19.600 --> 0:37:20.960
<v Speaker 3>you know what I mean. So this idea that it

0:37:20.960 --> 0:37:24.080
<v Speaker 3>would be like for people to come see that people

0:37:24.120 --> 0:37:25.839
<v Speaker 3>will be able to go and see all this, right,

0:37:26.200 --> 0:37:31.480
<v Speaker 3>and then the biggest challenge today with creating these autonomous

0:37:31.480 --> 0:37:35.279
<v Speaker 3>tribal areas is that we now know you can't go

0:37:35.360 --> 0:37:38.640
<v Speaker 3>look because when you go look, you're going to bring

0:37:38.680 --> 0:37:43.200
<v Speaker 3>disease and you're going to bring ideas. And some people

0:37:43.239 --> 0:37:46.920
<v Speaker 3>think it's like overly paternalistic on the part of the governments,

0:37:47.000 --> 0:37:49.120
<v Speaker 3>but it winds up being that it's like you don't visit.

0:37:49.960 --> 0:37:51.880
<v Speaker 1>No, that's true, And I mean I know you know

0:37:51.960 --> 0:37:56.040
<v Speaker 1>this because you've traveled everywhere and seen these and yeah,

0:37:56.080 --> 0:37:58.799
<v Speaker 1>that's been a fairly recent trend with national parks. National

0:37:58.840 --> 0:38:02.560
<v Speaker 1>parks obviously got interpreted in a vert a different way

0:38:02.680 --> 0:38:08.000
<v Speaker 1>than Catlan proposed, and then we exported the idea of

0:38:08.040 --> 0:38:10.560
<v Speaker 1>the national park around the world. So there are places

0:38:10.800 --> 0:38:13.839
<v Speaker 1>like Kruger National Park, for example, in South Africa, where

0:38:13.880 --> 0:38:17.200
<v Speaker 1>the idea was to get the native people out of

0:38:17.239 --> 0:38:21.320
<v Speaker 1>the park because European and American tourists seeing the park

0:38:21.320 --> 0:38:23.680
<v Speaker 1>would not want to see the native people. They would

0:38:23.680 --> 0:38:27.040
<v Speaker 1>want to see the landscapes and the animals, but not

0:38:27.320 --> 0:38:32.280
<v Speaker 1>the native people there. And of course what the zones

0:38:32.320 --> 0:38:36.719
<v Speaker 1>you're describing were sort of a reaction against that, where

0:38:36.719 --> 0:38:39.959
<v Speaker 1>the idea is to remove the native people. And so yeah,

0:38:39.960 --> 0:38:43.400
<v Speaker 1>it's back in the direction of what Catlan was proposing

0:38:43.440 --> 0:38:47.480
<v Speaker 1>in eighteen thirty two. But he does have this idea

0:38:47.640 --> 0:38:53.120
<v Speaker 1>pended to his proposal that enlightened and civilized people see it,

0:38:53.200 --> 0:38:55.560
<v Speaker 1>would go see and get to see what see these

0:38:55.600 --> 0:38:58.080
<v Speaker 1>people live, just the way he had gotten to do

0:38:58.600 --> 0:39:02.000
<v Speaker 1>in the eighteen thirties. But he's you know, as I

0:39:02.480 --> 0:39:05.880
<v Speaker 1>tried to say in that episode, I think one of

0:39:05.920 --> 0:39:08.840
<v Speaker 1>the reasons he comes in for the kind of derogation

0:39:09.040 --> 0:39:12.960
<v Speaker 1>that he does is because he's more sympathetic to Native

0:39:12.960 --> 0:39:17.080
<v Speaker 1>people than most other Americans are at the time. And

0:39:17.880 --> 0:39:20.520
<v Speaker 1>we have a kind of a different A lot of

0:39:20.600 --> 0:39:24.680
<v Speaker 1>Americans come to a different interpretation of the European notion,

0:39:24.840 --> 0:39:28.239
<v Speaker 1>the rousseaul notion of the noble savage living in a

0:39:28.280 --> 0:39:33.040
<v Speaker 1>state of nature Catlan. For Catlan, these native people are

0:39:33.080 --> 0:39:36.080
<v Speaker 1>the noble savages. For a lot of Americans, we sort

0:39:36.120 --> 0:39:40.680
<v Speaker 1>of translated that into well, it's actually a wide American

0:39:41.040 --> 0:39:45.680
<v Speaker 1>who lives like an Indian. Daniel Boone, Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett,

0:39:46.200 --> 0:39:50.080
<v Speaker 1>the mountain men, those are the noble savages are in

0:39:50.239 --> 0:39:56.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, John James Ottoban's viewpoint, he was the noble

0:39:56.680 --> 0:39:59.520
<v Speaker 1>savage who would go to Europe and present himself to

0:39:59.520 --> 0:40:02.360
<v Speaker 1>the European ends as here is on America and living

0:40:02.360 --> 0:40:05.279
<v Speaker 1>in a state of nature, a true noble savage. But

0:40:05.560 --> 0:40:08.759
<v Speaker 1>not the Indians. And that became that, I think, that

0:40:08.880 --> 0:40:12.640
<v Speaker 1>critical breakpoint between a lot of the other people of

0:40:12.680 --> 0:40:16.840
<v Speaker 1>his time in Cantlon and even Bodmer, you know, in

0:40:16.960 --> 0:40:19.520
<v Speaker 1>Bodmer's thing. I don't know what you guys thought about

0:40:19.560 --> 0:40:22.480
<v Speaker 1>that part of it, but to me, his big role

0:40:23.239 --> 0:40:27.120
<v Speaker 1>is I mean, he not only is able to paint

0:40:27.480 --> 0:40:32.520
<v Speaker 1>landscapes and animals and people in a remarkably realistic way.

0:40:32.600 --> 0:40:35.759
<v Speaker 1>So it's kind of a time travel thing to experience

0:40:35.800 --> 0:40:39.600
<v Speaker 1>the West of the early eighteen thirties. But what made

0:40:39.840 --> 0:40:44.560
<v Speaker 1>bodmer a sort of a modern phenomenon is Bernard Devoto's

0:40:44.640 --> 0:40:47.440
<v Speaker 1>discovery of him. When Bernard Devoto was writing across the

0:40:47.440 --> 0:40:51.840
<v Speaker 1>Wide Missouri, he discovered Bodmer's work and realized this was

0:40:51.920 --> 0:40:56.759
<v Speaker 1>the most authentic Western work of Indians and wildlife in

0:40:56.880 --> 0:41:00.920
<v Speaker 1>landscapes he had found and kind of turned Bodmer into

0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:07.080
<v Speaker 1>this this official historian that Native people attempting to reacquire

0:41:07.120 --> 0:41:12.480
<v Speaker 1>their cultures, and especially Hollywood, trying to do films that

0:41:12.800 --> 0:41:16.160
<v Speaker 1>would more realistically portray Native people, they turned to Bodmer.

0:41:16.760 --> 0:41:19.759
<v Speaker 1>You know, I mean one of the films for My Youth,

0:41:19.800 --> 0:41:25.640
<v Speaker 1>a man called Horse used one of the wonderful wild

0:41:25.640 --> 0:41:32.120
<v Speaker 1>turkey headdresses that Bodmer portrayed among the Accentiboins, and they

0:41:32.239 --> 0:41:37.880
<v Speaker 1>actually reproduced that headdress in that particular yeah, off his

0:41:38.000 --> 0:41:41.080
<v Speaker 1>painting and they do the same thing and dances with wolves.

0:41:41.080 --> 0:41:43.120
<v Speaker 1>They use a lot of a lot of his work

0:41:43.239 --> 0:41:48.319
<v Speaker 1>to recreate the Indian attire and all that. So it's uh,

0:41:48.440 --> 0:41:50.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, as I was trying to say, these these

0:41:50.480 --> 0:41:54.520
<v Speaker 1>guys give us this kind of visual time machine of

0:41:54.560 --> 0:41:57.080
<v Speaker 1>being able to go back and and see the West.

0:41:57.160 --> 0:41:59.960
<v Speaker 1>Lewis and Clark write about it, and you can serve

0:42:00.080 --> 0:42:02.800
<v Speaker 1>only develop a good sense of what the West in

0:42:02.880 --> 0:42:05.480
<v Speaker 1>the early nineteenth century was liked from the literature, But

0:42:06.000 --> 0:42:09.080
<v Speaker 1>the visual, I think is and that's why movies work

0:42:09.160 --> 0:42:10.240
<v Speaker 1>so well these days.

0:42:10.719 --> 0:42:14.440
<v Speaker 3>This isn't a question, but rather a comment of what

0:42:14.480 --> 0:42:18.080
<v Speaker 3>you're talking about is dealing in these eras when there's

0:42:18.080 --> 0:42:23.680
<v Speaker 3>no photography, you're really at the mercy and understanding of time.

0:42:23.880 --> 0:42:28.160
<v Speaker 3>You're at the mercy of oftentimes one or two illustrators,

0:42:28.680 --> 0:42:31.959
<v Speaker 3>and it gets in your head that it looked that way.

0:42:32.360 --> 0:42:34.839
<v Speaker 3>And when I was a little kid, I was growing

0:42:34.920 --> 0:42:36.560
<v Speaker 3>up in the Great Legs, I was very interested in

0:42:36.600 --> 0:42:40.440
<v Speaker 3>early Great Legs history and the French like the fifteen

0:42:40.520 --> 0:42:45.319
<v Speaker 3>hundreds early sixteen hundreds, terrible terrible art where they would

0:42:45.440 --> 0:42:48.560
<v Speaker 3>kind of draw these pictures of like everything that goes on. Yeah,

0:42:48.680 --> 0:42:52.799
<v Speaker 3>and they would draw native peoples and they'd like grotesque

0:42:52.880 --> 0:42:54.680
<v Speaker 3>renditions of native peoples.

0:42:55.360 --> 0:42:55.560
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:42:55.640 --> 0:42:57.680
<v Speaker 3>Oh no, I've seen these, and I would always have

0:42:57.760 --> 0:43:01.480
<v Speaker 3>the idea that like I wasn't drawn obviously was not

0:43:01.760 --> 0:43:05.080
<v Speaker 3>drawn to the history because I couldn't escape how the

0:43:05.120 --> 0:43:05.879
<v Speaker 3>French drew it.

0:43:06.000 --> 0:43:06.560
<v Speaker 1>Uh huh.

0:43:06.680 --> 0:43:11.400
<v Speaker 3>I'm like, that doesn't look cool. No, No, like some

0:43:11.760 --> 0:43:13.400
<v Speaker 3>like Catl and you look at cat like man, that

0:43:13.440 --> 0:43:16.120
<v Speaker 3>looks awesome, you know what I mean, Like, I'll go there.

0:43:16.200 --> 0:43:19.680
<v Speaker 1>Catlan and Bottomer both man. You know. So this is

0:43:19.719 --> 0:43:22.560
<v Speaker 1>a very different art than those guys who would do

0:43:22.760 --> 0:43:26.880
<v Speaker 1>a page and sort of put animals all over and yeah.

0:43:27.040 --> 0:43:29.080
<v Speaker 3>Everything that goes on like little chores.

0:43:29.160 --> 0:43:30.799
<v Speaker 1>It was just like it's just stick it all over

0:43:30.800 --> 0:43:31.200
<v Speaker 1>the place.

0:43:31.320 --> 0:43:33.680
<v Speaker 3>There's nothing to drew in about it. You know, in

0:43:34.000 --> 0:43:36.160
<v Speaker 3>your head, you like if you went back in time,

0:43:36.280 --> 0:43:37.760
<v Speaker 3>it would all look like that drawing.

0:43:38.120 --> 0:43:41.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that stuff is closer to like the drawings from

0:43:41.840 --> 0:43:46.040
<v Speaker 2>the colonial period of these animals that don't look like animals, Jeffes,

0:43:46.080 --> 0:43:47.080
<v Speaker 2>that don't look like trees.

0:43:47.360 --> 0:43:50.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, a buffalo that looks like a lion, and yeah,

0:43:50.320 --> 0:43:52.759
<v Speaker 1>all that sort of stuff. Yeah. Well, these guys were,

0:43:52.800 --> 0:43:55.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, Catland, especially Bomber. I mean, these guys were,

0:43:55.120 --> 0:43:58.480
<v Speaker 1>They were incredible. So it really is a way to

0:43:58.560 --> 0:44:01.319
<v Speaker 1>sort of, you know, if you're interested in that sort

0:44:01.360 --> 0:44:02.920
<v Speaker 1>of thing. And I always have been, just like you

0:44:02.960 --> 0:44:04.840
<v Speaker 1>were interested in the Great Lakes. I've always been interested

0:44:04.880 --> 0:44:08.440
<v Speaker 1>in trying to recreate. So what was this like, what

0:44:08.520 --> 0:44:11.600
<v Speaker 1>was what would have been like to go up the

0:44:11.640 --> 0:44:16.160
<v Speaker 1>Missouri River and see the White Cliffs and so you know,

0:44:16.200 --> 0:44:18.640
<v Speaker 1>as I said later in the script, I mean one

0:44:18.680 --> 0:44:21.319
<v Speaker 1>of the things I did first time I went down

0:44:22.360 --> 0:44:24.399
<v Speaker 1>the Wild and Scenic Missouri and went through the White

0:44:24.400 --> 0:44:28.839
<v Speaker 1>Cliffs section I took Bottomer paintings with me. Yeah, I

0:44:28.880 --> 0:44:31.400
<v Speaker 1>shot photographs of them and printed them up in color

0:44:31.760 --> 0:44:34.280
<v Speaker 1>and took them along. Took about fifteen of them along

0:44:34.600 --> 0:44:36.880
<v Speaker 1>and just kind of rode along in a canoe and

0:44:36.920 --> 0:44:40.240
<v Speaker 1>held these paintings up. And I mean, he was really

0:44:40.280 --> 0:44:43.080
<v Speaker 1>good at portraying that landscape. So that's one of the

0:44:43.239 --> 0:44:44.840
<v Speaker 1>that's one of the things that gave me the idea

0:44:45.040 --> 0:44:48.319
<v Speaker 1>for a piece like this is knowing how accurately he

0:44:48.360 --> 0:44:48.719
<v Speaker 1>did it.

0:44:49.040 --> 0:44:56.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, getting back to Catlan and Native people, I think,

0:44:57.160 --> 0:45:00.560
<v Speaker 2>and this isn't unique to the West, but oftentime, when

0:45:00.600 --> 0:45:04.280
<v Speaker 2>people are looking at the past, they're sort of viewing

0:45:04.840 --> 0:45:08.279
<v Speaker 2>individuals beliefs on a spectrum of how enlightened they are

0:45:08.560 --> 0:45:13.040
<v Speaker 2>versus how backwards they are right. And one of the

0:45:13.040 --> 0:45:18.000
<v Speaker 2>things that I've picked up just in reading about this

0:45:18.080 --> 0:45:23.840
<v Speaker 2>period is it's the thinking about Native people and Native

0:45:23.880 --> 0:45:27.239
<v Speaker 2>cultures at the time is so multi dimensional. You know,

0:45:27.280 --> 0:45:34.640
<v Speaker 2>there's some people that maybe celebrate Native culture, but they

0:45:34.680 --> 0:45:37.840
<v Speaker 2>believe that they're going to go extinct. There's some people

0:45:37.920 --> 0:45:42.480
<v Speaker 2>that are obviously like there's the sum that you know,

0:45:43.120 --> 0:45:46.960
<v Speaker 2>don't view it positively and want to wipe out Native people.

0:45:47.840 --> 0:45:50.279
<v Speaker 2>There's some people that are trying to sort of taking

0:45:50.280 --> 0:45:53.279
<v Speaker 2>a paternalistic attitude and trying to save them. And then

0:45:53.360 --> 0:45:55.680
<v Speaker 2>even in the realm of science, you know, like you

0:45:55.840 --> 0:46:01.760
<v Speaker 2>mentioned in the last episode, questions about whether indigenous people

0:46:01.800 --> 0:46:05.400
<v Speaker 2>in the Americas were part of a separate creation, whether

0:46:05.440 --> 0:46:07.960
<v Speaker 2>they were a separate you know, or they're part of

0:46:08.000 --> 0:46:11.839
<v Speaker 2>the same race or species. I wonder if you can

0:46:11.920 --> 0:46:17.160
<v Speaker 2>sort of get into where like Catlan in particular, one

0:46:17.200 --> 0:46:19.880
<v Speaker 2>could read his idea of having parks with people in

0:46:19.920 --> 0:46:27.160
<v Speaker 2>them as being very backwards. But in terms of the context,

0:46:27.239 --> 0:46:30.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's sort of hard to make a judgment

0:46:30.640 --> 0:46:31.440
<v Speaker 2>value about that.

0:46:31.760 --> 0:46:36.279
<v Speaker 1>I mean, yeah, Rand, that's all excellent points, no doubt

0:46:36.320 --> 0:46:41.120
<v Speaker 1>about it. Yeah, it's complicated, and there are people with

0:46:41.160 --> 0:46:44.399
<v Speaker 1>a lot of different approaches to it. I mean, and

0:46:44.440 --> 0:46:47.840
<v Speaker 1>we're still debating. By the eighteen thirties, when Catlin and

0:46:47.840 --> 0:46:50.200
<v Speaker 1>Bodem are in the West, I mean, we're still debating.

0:46:50.239 --> 0:46:53.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean, this is the same decade when Joseph Smith

0:46:53.360 --> 0:46:57.040
<v Speaker 1>writes the Book of Mormon, which is, you know, a

0:46:57.120 --> 0:47:00.960
<v Speaker 1>postulation of the old idea that who native people are

0:47:01.280 --> 0:47:05.239
<v Speaker 1>are actually Hebrews from the lost tribes of Israel who

0:47:05.480 --> 0:47:07.600
<v Speaker 1>found their way to the Americas. I mean, that's what

0:47:07.719 --> 0:47:11.960
<v Speaker 1>the Book of Mormon basically posits has its story, and

0:47:12.080 --> 0:47:16.560
<v Speaker 1>that was an early explanation for who Indians were when

0:47:16.600 --> 0:47:19.600
<v Speaker 1>Europeans first came over. Well, who are these people? Because

0:47:19.719 --> 0:47:25.359
<v Speaker 1>they don't appear anywhere in our stories. Why are there

0:47:25.400 --> 0:47:28.239
<v Speaker 1>people here who we know nothing about? And this was

0:47:28.280 --> 0:47:31.360
<v Speaker 1>the best guess was that, well, there are some tribes

0:47:31.400 --> 0:47:34.200
<v Speaker 1>from the lost tribes of Israel who left and disappeared,

0:47:34.239 --> 0:47:38.120
<v Speaker 1>and maybe that's who this is. But by in terms

0:47:38.120 --> 0:47:42.520
<v Speaker 1>of science, by that same decade, though, there were already

0:47:42.600 --> 0:47:48.719
<v Speaker 1>people who were doing linguistic studies of tribal languages and

0:47:48.800 --> 0:47:53.840
<v Speaker 1>beginning to argue that these tribal languages don't seem to

0:47:53.880 --> 0:48:01.120
<v Speaker 1>have any relationship to Hebrew at all. Fact, what they

0:48:01.160 --> 0:48:05.080
<v Speaker 1>appeared to be closest to are the languages of Asia,

0:48:05.680 --> 0:48:09.240
<v Speaker 1>not of the Middle East. And therefore, by the eighteen

0:48:09.280 --> 0:48:11.920
<v Speaker 1>thirties there's already, you know, there are already people who

0:48:11.960 --> 0:48:14.160
<v Speaker 1>are saying, well, it looks like maybe native people must

0:48:14.200 --> 0:48:17.840
<v Speaker 1>have come from Asia and not from somewhere in the

0:48:17.840 --> 0:48:20.879
<v Speaker 1>Middle East or Europe. That's kind of one of those

0:48:20.920 --> 0:48:24.600
<v Speaker 1>scientific arguments that's at the time that Catlin and Bodma

0:48:24.640 --> 0:48:27.719
<v Speaker 1>are doing all this work, you know, But to give

0:48:27.760 --> 0:48:32.560
<v Speaker 1>you an idea of Catlan's commitment to what he thought

0:48:32.719 --> 0:48:34.959
<v Speaker 1>by creating a park with Native people and it would

0:48:35.000 --> 0:48:40.560
<v Speaker 1>have been a great good for Native people. Catlan is

0:48:40.560 --> 0:48:43.120
<v Speaker 1>one of the only people I have ever read about

0:48:43.600 --> 0:48:48.279
<v Speaker 1>who personally went in went to the White House and

0:48:48.360 --> 0:48:52.120
<v Speaker 1>got an audience with Andrew Jackson and tried to talk

0:48:52.239 --> 0:48:56.480
<v Speaker 1>Andrew Jackson out of removing Indians in the east to

0:48:56.560 --> 0:49:01.000
<v Speaker 1>the west. I mean, he actually tried to engage with

0:49:01.920 --> 0:49:04.239
<v Speaker 1>a President of the United States who was not about to,

0:49:04.600 --> 0:49:08.560
<v Speaker 1>of course stop removal, and trying to make the case

0:49:08.600 --> 0:49:11.080
<v Speaker 1>that you shouldn't do this. And the reason he thought

0:49:11.440 --> 0:49:14.080
<v Speaker 1>that Jackson shouldn't do it, He said, we all should

0:49:14.080 --> 0:49:18.160
<v Speaker 1>be growing up around Native people. We shouldn't shunt them

0:49:18.239 --> 0:49:21.400
<v Speaker 1>off to somewhere else and hide them away from the

0:49:21.440 --> 0:49:24.719
<v Speaker 1>rest of us. We should all have Native people around us.

0:49:25.160 --> 0:49:28.560
<v Speaker 1>And you know, that's again a kind of an argument

0:49:28.640 --> 0:49:31.279
<v Speaker 1>that you're hard pressed to find anybody else of the

0:49:31.360 --> 0:49:36.080
<v Speaker 1>time making. And so you know, as I've said in

0:49:36.120 --> 0:49:38.879
<v Speaker 1>that the script for that episode, I kind of think

0:49:38.920 --> 0:49:42.719
<v Speaker 1>that it's these ideas that get Catlan in trouble with

0:49:42.800 --> 0:49:44.680
<v Speaker 1>a lot of his contemporary Yeah, but if you're.

0:49:44.560 --> 0:49:49.120
<v Speaker 3>Going to condemn Catlan's thing as being, you know, viewing

0:49:49.200 --> 0:49:53.120
<v Speaker 3>Native people strictly as an other wanting to like make

0:49:53.239 --> 0:49:56.359
<v Speaker 3>museum exhibits out of them, I don't think it's really

0:49:56.360 --> 0:49:59.799
<v Speaker 3>fair to do it that way because you have to

0:49:59.840 --> 0:50:02.080
<v Speaker 3>look look at it in the context of what everybody

0:50:02.120 --> 0:50:03.120
<v Speaker 3>else was saying at the time.

0:50:03.120 --> 0:50:04.240
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, and when.

0:50:04.080 --> 0:50:07.719
<v Speaker 3>You compare it to what everybody everybody else's idea, it

0:50:07.760 --> 0:50:10.440
<v Speaker 3>was like it was revolutionary, you know, I mean, and

0:50:10.480 --> 0:50:12.800
<v Speaker 3>it was born like from from from sympathy.

0:50:13.000 --> 0:50:14.080
<v Speaker 1>It was born from sympathy.

0:50:14.080 --> 0:50:15.719
<v Speaker 3>And you look at it now and find all these

0:50:15.719 --> 0:50:17.640
<v Speaker 3>ways to tear it apart. But you gotta be like, well,

0:50:17.719 --> 0:50:20.319
<v Speaker 3>if you're gonna do that, then you better compare what

0:50:20.480 --> 0:50:22.040
<v Speaker 3>some what Jackson's idea was.

0:50:22.160 --> 0:50:26.239
<v Speaker 1>And Jackson's idea. Jackson's idea was the same thing that

0:50:26.840 --> 0:50:32.480
<v Speaker 1>the liberation societies for manumitted African slaves was, which is,

0:50:33.480 --> 0:50:36.240
<v Speaker 1>we're going to send them back to Africa. We don't

0:50:36.320 --> 0:50:41.560
<v Speaker 1>want them to remain here. If they're free now they go,

0:50:41.640 --> 0:50:45.120
<v Speaker 1>and so we acquire a piece of West Africa Liberia

0:50:45.600 --> 0:50:50.040
<v Speaker 1>and send start sending former slaves back to Africa and

0:50:50.160 --> 0:50:52.920
<v Speaker 1>Jackson's idea with Native people was essentially the same thing.

0:50:52.960 --> 0:50:56.520
<v Speaker 1>We're going to designated a piece of the United States, Oklahoma,

0:50:57.120 --> 0:51:01.560
<v Speaker 1>the Indian Territory, and we're gonna put them all there

0:51:02.080 --> 0:51:04.520
<v Speaker 1>so we can get them out of the rest of

0:51:04.560 --> 0:51:08.360
<v Speaker 1>the rest of the country. And Catlan is one of

0:51:08.360 --> 0:51:12.200
<v Speaker 1>the few voices that's arguing against that. So yeah, absolutely,

0:51:12.200 --> 0:51:14.560
<v Speaker 1>given the context of the time, this guy is a

0:51:14.800 --> 0:51:22.920
<v Speaker 1>raging liberal trying to defend the rights of Native people

0:51:23.400 --> 0:51:24.480
<v Speaker 1>in the eighteen thirties.

0:51:25.560 --> 0:51:27.560
<v Speaker 3>Well, Dan, thanks man, look forward to the next episode.

0:51:27.680 --> 0:51:29.719
<v Speaker 1>Oh thank you, Steven Randall, appreciate it.