Speaker 1: This podcast discusses consensual sexual activity. Please take care while listening.
Speaker 1: One of Spencer's long term affairs was with a friend
Speaker 1: of Jennifer's, and she found that especially hurtful. He wrote
Speaker 1: about it to jen.
Speaker 2: To my memory, she was staring at me a lot
Speaker 2: at the bar. I'm sure I noticed and tried to
Speaker 2: dismiss it as just my imagination, but it continued. I
Speaker 2: honestly have no idea how it started. I simply found
Speaker 2: times when you or her husband were both out of
Speaker 2: town when it was over with her. You can't imagine
Speaker 2: my relief that problem in my life was over. I
Speaker 2: was so happy.
Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is trial episode six, the
Speaker 1: only one.
Speaker 3: I don't know much about your relationship with this woman,
Speaker 3: but she was your friend, right, yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean one of the reasons that I really wanted
Speaker 4: to talk to her is because she was a.
Speaker 5: Friend of mine. She knew us.
Speaker 4: When Spencer and I opened the bar, her and her
Speaker 4: husband started coming in as regulars, and so, like a
Speaker 4: lot of people, we became friends with them. When they
Speaker 4: got out for a night and had a babysitter, they'd
Speaker 4: go to dinner in town but come.
Speaker 3: By the bar.
Speaker 4: Before or after and spend time with us. So when
Speaker 4: I opened Spencer's email and started scrolling through his photos,
Speaker 4: all of a sudden her picture popped up. And to
Speaker 4: see somebody, you know, provocatively in a photo and knowing
Speaker 4: that they sent it to your husband, I mean, I
Speaker 4: was so angry, as you can imagine.
Speaker 3: I mean, I was with everybody.
Speaker 4: But I called her that night and it was probably
Speaker 4: eleven eleven thirty at night, and I didn't care. I
Speaker 4: went back to look through all the correspondence between them,
Speaker 4: and I realized that they had been seeing each other
Speaker 4: from like the end of two thousand and fourteen through
Speaker 4: twenty sixteen, and in reading all of their correspondents, I
Speaker 4: could really tell that she got hurt, like she had
Speaker 4: fallen for Spence hard. She really believed she was the
Speaker 4: only one. She really did. She left me a voicemail
Speaker 4: and she said, I thought I was the only one.
Speaker 1: It wasn't easy for any of the women involved with
Speaker 1: Spencer to participate in this podcast. Jen's former friend agreed
Speaker 1: to speak with her on the record. The requested that
Speaker 1: we keep her voice and name private. Although this conversation
Speaker 1: is one hundred percent real and the interest of protecting
Speaker 1: her identity. We used a voice actor for her side
Speaker 1: the conversation.
Speaker 6: Can you tell me how the relationship between the two
Speaker 6: of you started.
Speaker 7: It happened so slowly, finding things that were similarities between us,
Speaker 7: Like I played soccer, you know he played soccer.
Speaker 5: I coached, he coached, So early.
Speaker 7: Conversations would be, you know when we run into each other, like, oh,
Speaker 7: how's the game, or how's.
Speaker 5: Coaching, or hey, coach?
Speaker 7: You know, certain things that were not necessarily flirtatious, but
Speaker 7: getting to know me and my family and you know,
Speaker 7: making me feel comfortable with him over time, and then
Speaker 7: I guess, you know, knowing that there was an instance
Speaker 7: where he would try to start physical interactions.
Speaker 8: Was that usually at the wine bar?
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 7: The very first time I went to the bathroom at
Speaker 7: the end of the night, he asked me if I
Speaker 7: could help stay there for him to close up, like
Speaker 7: help carry something out. I went into the bathroom and
Speaker 7: when I came out, he was there and mentioned like,
Speaker 7: you know that we have this thing together. You know
Speaker 7: you're feeling this too, right, And then he came in
Speaker 7: for a kiss, then held my hand and touched his
Speaker 7: crotch with my hand on the outside.
Speaker 8: Of his pants and what did you do?
Speaker 7: I mean, I just had wine, you know, So me
Speaker 7: feeling like it was somebody I trusted over at least
Speaker 7: six months to a year. I mean, I had thought
Speaker 7: he was attractive, not that that's any fault to my
Speaker 7: significant other, but he was traveling a lot, and when
Speaker 7: he was home he fell asleep, and I was a
Speaker 7: stay at home mom with kids, and I was stressed out,
Speaker 7: and I felt like somebody got me in that moment.
Speaker 7: So he knew he was taking advantage of that.
Speaker 8: So how did it propress them?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 8: How did he, I guess, justify it.
Speaker 7: That we were meant to be together. However, in the
Speaker 7: midst of things, I remember him saying that, you know,
Speaker 7: his wife can never find out because you know, he
Speaker 7: loves his wife and his relationship, so nobody could find
Speaker 7: out what was going on. He made me feel like
Speaker 7: I was the only one and special and I know
Speaker 7: that sounds.
Speaker 5: Weird, Nope, but both being married.
Speaker 7: And in a relationship, I was okay with it. I
Speaker 7: felt like I didn't necessarily want to have physical contact,
Speaker 7: you know, I think guys are more driven towards that,
Speaker 7: but I guess in a way, I almost felt like
Speaker 7: I owed him something and I never forced or never
Speaker 7: said no, and against my will, but all along I
Speaker 7: knew it was wrong. But then I would always hear,
Speaker 7: you know, like you're so beautiful, you're really really well rounded.
Speaker 5: You're a great mom.
Speaker 7: But I was strung out, stressed out, didn't feel pretty
Speaker 7: all the time, because you know, I had kids hanging
Speaker 7: off me, breastfeeding.
Speaker 5: I was greasy, maybe.
Speaker 7: Showered every couple days, maybe washed up with baby wipes,
Speaker 7: and him coming in and making like those compliments and stuff.
Speaker 5: Of course it made me feel good, yea.
Speaker 7: And I remember one day after the wine bar, we
Speaker 7: went to the restaurant back in the back, and I
Speaker 7: remember questioning him, like how many people do you do
Speaker 7: this with?
Speaker 5: And he's like what?
Speaker 7: And I was like, how many people have you had
Speaker 7: relationships with outside of your marriage?
Speaker 5: And he's like, are you kidding me? None? No others,
Speaker 5: no one.
Speaker 7: In my gut, I knew that this was happening all
Speaker 7: over because I could see the way that he would
Speaker 7: look at people in public situation. If I was off
Speaker 7: in the distance or he was exchanging money with somebody,
Speaker 7: his hand would linger on hers a little bit longer.
Speaker 5: It was a challenge. It was a game.
Speaker 8: So this happened over a couple of years. At the
Speaker 8: peak of it, what was it like.
Speaker 7: Like we weren't in contact all the time. I mean,
Speaker 7: it was mostly like texts or emails, and the times
Speaker 7: that we met up were few and far between than
Speaker 7: what you probably think because I wasn't about all that.
Speaker 7: And then there were times where he would, you know, say,
Speaker 7: well just role play and I felt okay doing that
Speaker 7: because I'm like, I'd rather talk about it than meet
Speaker 7: up and do something that I know is horrible.
Speaker 8: Did you also feel that sense to like please him?
Speaker 7: I did, because at some point I did kind of
Speaker 7: feel like, well, now I'm in too deep. If I
Speaker 7: try to stop this, is he going to like go
Speaker 7: tell somebody, you know? But it wasn't like I was
Speaker 7: ever forced. Looking back, that's what's embarrassing. I consented to
Speaker 7: that stuff with him merely taking that time to build
Speaker 7: that relationship. You don't want to live your life having
Speaker 7: a shield up against somebody who's going to pay you
Speaker 7: a compliment or somebody who's going to get to know
Speaker 7: you and be a good person. But that's truly how
Speaker 7: it happened, very nonchalant over time gaining that trust. And
Speaker 7: I think people that have that sickness or that addiction,
Speaker 7: they know that that's what works.
Speaker 5: It's grooming. It's rooming.
Speaker 7: It is grooming, and they don't mind taking the time
Speaker 7: to build that trust.
Speaker 8: And at what point did you realize it was grooming?
Speaker 9: You know?
Speaker 7: Going through all this, I was going to church and
Speaker 7: believing in God. Was I as strong with my relationship
Speaker 7: with God at that time?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 5: I wasn't. I felt bad going to church.
Speaker 7: I felt bad taking the communion, but I felt at
Speaker 7: one point like I was just in too far with things,
Speaker 7: and it just hit me, like I realized what was
Speaker 7: going on, and I just said, I can't, you know,
Speaker 7: I can't do this anymore. And it was at that
Speaker 7: point when I really realized that I'm not the only
Speaker 7: other one that's being flirted with. And that's when I
Speaker 7: kind of said, like, what's going on? There were plenty
Speaker 7: of times when I wanted to come to you, but
Speaker 7: I didn't think you'd believe me because he was so
Speaker 7: good at charming and talking his way around things. You
Speaker 7: probably would have went to him and he would have
Speaker 7: denied it. And he's your husband.
Speaker 5: If you don't know.
Speaker 7: For sure, you know, there wasn't any evidence, but there
Speaker 7: was evidence not earlier on, when it was just kind
Speaker 7: of the grooming process, right.
Speaker 5: I wish that I could have noticed it at that point.
Speaker 7: I wish I had the strength to be that person
Speaker 7: that would have just seen everything bright and clear and
Speaker 7: could have given you heads up, because surely things wouldn't
Speaker 7: have happened with other people, you know.
Speaker 8: And I think that's why it's important for other people
Speaker 8: to hear this, because you can honestly say I might
Speaker 8: have stepped into something and made that mistake and fallen
Speaker 8: for it, but like, look, these are the sign.
Speaker 7: And then, especially when I found out what happened with
Speaker 7: somebody underage, do you think I kicked myself the way
Speaker 7: I was talked to to feel good about myself.
Speaker 5: And to trust him. Surely that happened to that same girl.
Speaker 7: I bet you any money it was the same steps,
Speaker 7: just continuously building a relationship with somebody and making them
Speaker 7: feel good about themselves, but also making them feel like
Speaker 7: they're not doing anything bad. I had remembered saying like
Speaker 7: I can't do this, this is wrong. Well no, no,
Speaker 7: it's not wrong. You just can't help when two people
Speaker 7: just click like we do. Those were the kind of
Speaker 7: comments that I would get really oh my gosh.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 7: But then at the same time, I didn't want anyone
Speaker 7: finding out about this and didn't want his marriage to
Speaker 7: be ruined.
Speaker 5: I think that was his cover. His cover was being married.
Speaker 7: People didn't expect him to do these things, and he
Speaker 7: used that.
Speaker 8: So you knew me. You must have asked him about me,
Speaker 8: like were you guys gonna go off together?
Speaker 7: Absolutely not, and I asked him that. At one point,
Speaker 7: I said, what do you want from this? He would
Speaker 7: say that he was happy and nothing was wrong with
Speaker 7: his relationship, and he would just bring it back on
Speaker 7: like you can't help, kind of like a fate situation
Speaker 7: of two people being really good for each other, and
Speaker 7: then he would say, like, you know, there's no commitment
Speaker 7: or whatever. And then at one point I remember him
Speaker 7: saying something about meeting up and I said no, and
Speaker 7: he texted me a picture of his dick right right
Speaker 7: out there, not even expecting it right out there on
Speaker 7: my phone. So when he was wanting to meet up
Speaker 7: and I knew things were wrong, I felt like, well,
Speaker 7: if I could give him anything that would make him happy,
Speaker 7: and I wouldn't have to do physical you know, like
Speaker 7: meet in person and do that kind of stuff, then
Speaker 7: I will. So if I was drinking wine one night
Speaker 7: and you know, binge watching shows or something, and he
Speaker 7: texted me and at one point then requested me to
Speaker 7: send him a picture, I felt like that was better
Speaker 7: than actually getting together with him, right, And then I
Speaker 7: remember saying to him the next day, like, you need
Speaker 7: to delete that? Will you promised me you delete that now?
Speaker 8: Are you surprised to know that he kept everything?
Speaker 5: I mean he told me like, of course, of course,
Speaker 5: you know.
Speaker 7: But then in the back of my mind I had
Speaker 7: a feeling, especially towards the end, that he did not
Speaker 7: delete that kind of stuff really aggravates me. That was
Speaker 7: personal and important things. Yes, that I made the wrong
Speaker 7: decision to do, but in me asking him he should have.
Speaker 5: Deleted those, like, I feel like that is not right
Speaker 5: at all.
Speaker 8: Well wait, let me ask you this. I just want
Speaker 8: to go back. Did you guys sleep together?
Speaker 5: Yes? Where in the bathroom at the bar.
Speaker 7: And then there was another time when I was out
Speaker 7: on my own with friends and he was kind of
Speaker 7: pestering me for me to pick him up, and that
Speaker 7: was another place.
Speaker 8: This car. Yes, did you ever come to my house.
Speaker 5: I came to your house once.
Speaker 8: He invited a woman into my house.
Speaker 5: He did, and I bet I wasn't the only one.
Speaker 8: And so you just came into my house.
Speaker 7: He took my hand and he took me upstairs. He
Speaker 7: had things set up in the upper bedroom with like
Speaker 7: candles and shit. That was the point where I couldn't
Speaker 7: and I told him no. So I ended up staying
Speaker 7: downstairs and we got.
Speaker 5: Into an argument.
Speaker 7: And that was one of the times toward the end
Speaker 7: that I felt like I just couldn't do this because
Speaker 7: of the regret that I had for what I was
Speaker 7: doing to you and my family.
Speaker 8: Well what did you think you were there for?
Speaker 5: I don't know. He talked me into going.
Speaker 7: I was just like, yeah, I'll come over quick whatever,
Speaker 7: you know. I said, like, I don't feel like going
Speaker 7: in your house, and I'm like, is somebody else home?
Speaker 7: He said that you were traveling or something, and that's
Speaker 7: when I was like, I can't. And along the way,
Speaker 7: I think it was things like that situations he was
Speaker 7: putting me into where I knew that it was going
Speaker 7: past the point of no return, but I wasn't going
Speaker 7: any farther. And then finally I just took a look
Speaker 7: back and really started praying about it. And at that point,
Speaker 7: it was almost like a dream, like I can't believe
Speaker 7: what I did, what had happened. It was like what's
Speaker 7: done is done. I ended up telling my husband on
Speaker 7: my own without him even finding anything out, because it
Speaker 7: was just eating at me.
Speaker 8: So what happened after you told your husband?
Speaker 7: It was one night and the kids were in bed,
Speaker 7: and I ended up telling him at the table. I'm like,
Speaker 7: I have something to tell you. I'm like, I did
Speaker 7: something really horrible and he's like, did you have sex?
Speaker 7: And I said yes, And that was the utmost hardest
Speaker 7: thing I've ever had to do. And he was very distraught,
Speaker 7: very distraught, and it was really hard for a long time.
Speaker 7: You know, our relationship is great now, and looking back,
Speaker 7: I think it was that moment when I got a
Speaker 7: text from somebody with the article that came out about
Speaker 7: him going to jail for underage sex and stuff like that,
Speaker 7: and I had no doubt, no doubt. I felt a
Speaker 7: flood of emotion. Is that something I could have prevented?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 7: But that's the moment in our relationship that we could
Speaker 7: actually look at this in a different light other than
Speaker 7: me just being a person that goes and does this.
Speaker 7: I thought I was just a horrible person and this
Speaker 7: is something that I sought out, and knowing that it's not,
Speaker 7: I was blindly taken advantage of in a lot of
Speaker 7: different ways.
Speaker 6: Did us being friends ever give you pause or factor
Speaker 6: into it?
Speaker 7: I know we were associated with you guys, and we
Speaker 7: were friends, but like, there wasn't too much entanglement in
Speaker 7: our lives. It wasn't like we were going out every
Speaker 7: weekend and we were doing things together.
Speaker 5: And part of me looks back and wishes that would.
Speaker 7: Have happened, because I think I would have been stronger
Speaker 7: to resist, you know, those those passes by him.
Speaker 6: What happened when your husband confronted and it's Spence about this.
Speaker 7: Just yelling and screaming, and he didn't want me to
Speaker 7: hear him, but I was trying to listen through the
Speaker 7: event in the first floor to listen to him, Like
Speaker 7: in the basement. He was livid, he was yelling, spitting,
Speaker 7: I mean, he wanted to rip him apart. Still to
Speaker 7: this day, does cannot ever ever forgive even though he's
Speaker 7: a god loving person, can't ever ever forgive what had happened.
Speaker 6: But at that point, like why didn't anybody come to me?
Speaker 7: I guess I just knew that it was like your
Speaker 7: fairy tale and stuff, and I guess at that point
Speaker 7: I just wanted to just hide everything.
Speaker 8: But then after that, you guys still kind of communicated.
Speaker 8: Was that Spence kind of making that gesture?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 7: Absolutely, I mean, now that it was out to my husband,
Speaker 7: I would have never I had to salvage everything that
Speaker 7: I could. I mean, I wanted to meet up to
Speaker 7: like talk to him about why and how many other
Speaker 7: people and could he come clean with me? Because I
Speaker 7: knew he was lying. And then I also wanted to
Speaker 7: tell him, like you need to tell your wife or
Speaker 7: else I'm going to and he avoided.
Speaker 5: He always made an excuse not to get together.
Speaker 8: The first voicemail that you left me, you said something
Speaker 8: that stuck with me, and that was he made you
Speaker 8: feel special and like you were the only one.
Speaker 7: He made me feel that way but lied to my face. Yeah,
Speaker 7: I felt like I knew him and trusted him.
Speaker 5: Looking back, it was so stupid. It was so stupid.
Speaker 7: I cannot believe I let somebody so far into my
Speaker 7: mind mentally, and I think it was also the situation
Speaker 7: that I was in, you know, with my husband working
Speaker 7: a lot, and again not his fault at all, like
Speaker 7: I should have known better as avoid of other things
Speaker 7: I guess kind of in my life. He came and
Speaker 7: he knew those were things I would tell him, and
Speaker 7: he knew that he could.
Speaker 5: Be right in there.
Speaker 7: But my thing that boggled my mind was like, if
Speaker 7: I was his only person, why would he always say like, well,
Speaker 7: my wife can never find out or like I like things,
Speaker 7: how I have them? Well, yeah, you do, because that's
Speaker 7: your front, and it enables you to do this stuff,
Speaker 7: enables you to go out and like encroach on other
Speaker 7: women knowing that you're married, like nothing would ever happen.
Speaker 8: Well, I mean you were right on. There were more women,
Speaker 8: that's for sure.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 7: I hate what happened all around. And I feel like
Speaker 7: you're super strong, obviously way better than he is. And
Speaker 7: I'm glad you found this out in the way that
Speaker 7: you did. I'm glad you found it out so you
Speaker 7: can live a really awesome life moving forward.
Speaker 8: That's right. I mean, if one out of all the
Speaker 8: women I found spoken up, you know, thank God for
Speaker 8: the victim, the student who had the courage.
Speaker 7: She even waited until later to come out right, like,
Speaker 7: you're scared. First of all, you don't want to admit
Speaker 7: that you did something horribly wrong. You don't want to
Speaker 7: admit that you were taken advantage of.
Speaker 8: Right.
Speaker 7: You know, it's embarrassing, but people can't be afraid.
Speaker 5: To be embarrassed.
Speaker 7: You have to talk to somebody.
Speaker 8: Are you surprised to hear that I found more women?
Speaker 5: No, not at all, Absolutely not.
Speaker 7: That's why when I came out and saw there's comments
Speaker 7: about an underage girl and stuff like that, and people
Speaker 7: being on his side, that pissed me off because I
Speaker 7: sometimes wondered if he did that. You know, I was like,
Speaker 7: all these girls probably think he's real cute at school
Speaker 7: and stuff like. In the back of my mind, I
Speaker 7: was like, hopefully he wouldn't do something like.
Speaker 5: That, and then like that comes out.
Speaker 7: I felt horrible. I felt mixed emotions. I felt bad
Speaker 7: for the girl, I felt pissed off at him, I
Speaker 7: felt sorry for you. I couldn't believe it actually came
Speaker 7: out and happened, but I was happy it happened because
Speaker 7: that got him.
Speaker 5: If not to this day, he could still be doing
Speaker 5: that crap.
Speaker 7: But knowing that he kept all those things, that's somebody
Speaker 7: with a major issue, major horrible, disgusting issue. He had you,
Speaker 7: he had his kids, he had everything right in front
Speaker 7: of him, and whatever it was, whatever was wrong with
Speaker 7: him mentally fucked up or whatever, that is somebody with
Speaker 7: an issue. So all along I felt like it was
Speaker 7: me and that I was horrible and I did this,
Speaker 7: I did this thing and made this horrible mistake. But
Speaker 7: now I do realize that it is a victim type situation.
Speaker 7: I'm sorry for what happened overall for me. You would
Speaker 7: think I would know better, But exactly what happened to
Speaker 7: the underage girl is what happened to the other women.
Speaker 7: And you know what, there's probably so many women that
Speaker 7: don't have remorse for what they did or what they
Speaker 7: took part in. But I can tell you that I.
Speaker 8: Do, and I know you do, and I really want
Speaker 8: you to get past this.
Speaker 7: I mean, I don't think about it every day now,
Speaker 7: But of course, since you and I have come into
Speaker 7: contact with each other over the past couple months here,
Speaker 7: of course I've had like full on anxiety attacks and
Speaker 7: I've had to like pop out out a van and
Speaker 7: really try to get my head straight around everything. But
Speaker 7: it makes me feel good for you saying that to me.
Speaker 7: I can never be sorry enough to you. It was
Speaker 7: never ever pointed at you. I knew you were in
Speaker 7: this situation. But I can't even tell you how he
Speaker 7: made it feel like there wasn't anything else, any barriers there,
Speaker 7: and that was part of whatever he does and whatever
Speaker 7: those types of people do well.
Speaker 8: And I guess I was looking for, like, what was
Speaker 8: that secret ingredient? And how did he get away with it?
Speaker 8: How was he able to manage so much going on
Speaker 8: at the same time.
Speaker 5: I have no idea.
Speaker 7: You teach, you coach, you have a wife that you
Speaker 7: do things with, You guys had a business. How do
Speaker 7: you do all these things? But then I would hear
Speaker 7: him say like, I'm going to go away on my
Speaker 7: army weekend or whatever, and I knew I was like, Okay,
Speaker 7: how many states does he have people in that he's
Speaker 7: counting on.
Speaker 5: My biggest regret going back.
Speaker 7: I mean, of course I would say for all this
Speaker 7: not to happen, But my biggest regret is not saying
Speaker 7: something right away, and I'll always regret that. I can't
Speaker 7: ever not feel like that. But I mean definitely helps me.
Speaker 7: I don't know if I've helped.
Speaker 5: You at all.
Speaker 8: Yes, you did, you really did. Thank you. But that's
Speaker 8: also why I'm sharing my story. It's one of those
Speaker 8: things that's like, no, no, no, that could never happen
Speaker 8: to somebody I know, and it's like, wait, what how
Speaker 8: do you navigate this? It's crazy.
Speaker 3: I have a question like was your husband always on
Speaker 3: his phone?
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 4: I swear to God, No, I think about that all
Speaker 4: the time. Was he sitting in bed, like texting all
Speaker 4: night and things like that.
Speaker 6: No.
Speaker 3: I think a lot of it happened during the day.
Speaker 3: Will never understand why she was able to tell her husband,
Speaker 3: but telling you was different. Maybe she felt like that
Speaker 3: was Spencer's responsibility.
Speaker 4: I think I do hold her somewhat responsible for not
Speaker 4: telling me because she could have.
Speaker 3: And you would hope that the relationship and connection you
Speaker 3: felt with someone would make them second guess their decisions.
Speaker 4: Yes, that's another thing. It's different for some reason the
Speaker 4: women who didn't know me that chose to do this,
Speaker 4: But for a woman who knew me and saw me
Speaker 4: a couple times a week, I just can't even imagine
Speaker 4: doing that to somebody.
Speaker 3: Is it hard? To know that people were just like
Speaker 3: walking around knowing your life and your marriage and your
Speaker 3: house old was something fundamentally different than what you knew.
Speaker 5: It to be.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's what it's so hard to wrap your
Speaker 4: head around when your reality of the life you're leading
Speaker 4: is one way, and then to think that it's really
Speaker 4: not that. And there were people who knew it, you know.
Speaker 4: I think there were people that did know me, maybe
Speaker 4: not well, but certainly knew he had a wife. I
Speaker 4: read so many correspondents with him and women and him
Speaker 4: inviting them to the bar or saying it was so
Speaker 4: good to see you at the bar last night, or
Speaker 4: come see me at the bar tonight. So clearly this
Speaker 4: was a place that I'm finding out now where he
Speaker 4: used to get relationships.
Speaker 3: I walked away feeling like, this is a person that
Speaker 3: was really hurt and really into your ex husband. Because
Speaker 3: I'm trying to put myself and someone choose and unless
Speaker 3: I'm interested, I'm not noticing the hands from a customer
Speaker 3: on his hand, I'm not noticing the subtle looks. I mean,
Speaker 3: she was paying attention to him on a very deep level.
Speaker 3: She was watching him. That just makes me feel like,
Speaker 3: you know, she was really roped in.
Speaker 4: I really think in her mind she had invested some
Speaker 4: of herself into this relationship.
Speaker 3: I'm just curious if you're like letting go of that
Speaker 3: anger that you have towards her.
Speaker 4: I do have a little more anger toward her because
Speaker 4: she was a friend and she was doing this right
Speaker 4: under my nose with my husband. I also appreciate, though,
Speaker 4: that she was willing to get on the phone and
Speaker 4: talk to me about it, so I can let this go,
Speaker 4: because honestly, I want her life to be okay. I
Speaker 4: hope that the conversation maybe gave her some closure as well,
Speaker 4: and hopefully by letting her know that he was like
Speaker 4: this with other people, it helps her a little bit
Speaker 4: to understand.
Speaker 3: And you know that this is a pretty sick person.
Speaker 3: She's not the only person that fell for it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, at the end of the day, it was Spence
Speaker 4: that hurt me, But that part of being mad at
Speaker 4: the women, I just don't carry that his behavior was
Speaker 4: so out of control that it could have been anybody.
Speaker 3: On the next episode of Betrayal, I had.
Speaker 9: Never ever looked at her in any inappropriate way, not
Speaker 9: at all. In fact, probably for the last ten to
Speaker 9: fifteen years, I have not looked at any teen girl
Speaker 9: as anything but that a teen girl. I'd gotten older.
Speaker 2: There were no fantasies.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
Speaker 1: email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's
Speaker 1: Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production
Speaker 1: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in
Speaker 1: partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by
Speaker 1: Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me
Speaker 1: Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Kerry Hartman, also produced
Speaker 1: by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and
Speaker 1: Jessica Crinchick. Special thanks to voice actors Todd Gans and
Speaker 1: Rocky Ault. Sound editing and mixing done by Matt Taveccio.
Speaker 1: Betrayal's theme was composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided
Speaker 1: by my Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.