1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Gradios How Stuff Works. Hello, welcome 5 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 1: back to the show. My name is Matt, my name 6 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: they call me Ben. We are joined as always with 7 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: our super producer Paul Mission controlled dec and most importantly, 8 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: you are you. You are here and that makes this 9 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. From the offset, 10 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 1: it is important for us to collectively establish that this 11 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: episode is not an advertisement for the Irishman. The newest 12 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: Scorsese film that just dropped on Netflix, Uh, to no 13 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: small amount of acclaim and a little bit of controversy. 14 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: Al Pacino plays one of the I don't know, maybe 15 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: secondary is a good word, a secondary character in the 16 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: film Uh. He plays a character named Jimmy Hoffa, which 17 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,559 Speaker 1: is based on the real life Jimmy Hoffa. Now, Nol, 18 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: you and I had talked about this film a little 19 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,479 Speaker 1: bit off air when we saw it, and and Paul 20 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: you watched it, so you brought it up to us 21 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: without spoiling the film for anyone. It's based on a book, right, 22 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: by this guy named Charles Brant. It's called I Heard 23 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: You Paint Houses. I Heard You Paint Houses, which is 24 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 1: a fantastic title. This book purports to be nonfiction, includes 25 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: interviews and alleged confessions made to the author, Charles Brandt, 26 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: by a former mafia hitman named Frank she Wrin like 27 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: Edge she Wren Uh and yes and this uh. This 28 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: film inspired our own super producer, Paul deck And to say, Hey, guys, 29 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: have we ever delved into the story of jim Me Halfa? 30 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: And I don't know. I I assumed that we had. 31 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: We had. Not that changes today. So here are the facts. Yeah, 32 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: let's talk about Jimmy Haffa. Who is this guy? Well, 33 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: he was born James Riddle. You know, he went by 34 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 1: Jimmy Halfa. And he was born on Valentine's Day, that's 35 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 1: February fourteenth, nineteen thirteen, in a place called Brazil, Indiana. 36 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: I did not know there was a Brazil Indiana. It's 37 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: kind of cool. I've never heard of that place either. Um, 38 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: assuming the the climate is a bit different in that Brazil. Um, 39 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: he he was aware of let's say, the American labor force, 40 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: the American laborer, the person who was using their hands 41 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: to create something, generally for somebody else. His father was 42 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: a coal miner and he passed away when Halfa was 43 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: very very young. Jimmy was young, and his mom had 44 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: end up joining the workforce to support her family, which 45 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: which was a fairly common occurrence as you know, um, 46 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: the heads of households would die off, whether it was 47 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: through war conflict or a workforce accident or something like that. Um. 48 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: He had three siblings of four children, including Jimmy, and 49 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: eventually they moved to a place called Detroit, Michigan, which 50 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: at the time was a hotbed of industry and growing. 51 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: You know, this is uh, this is still before the 52 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: enormous boom of the American auto industry, but still it's 53 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: very much an industrious place. It's a great place to 54 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: get a job. And we don't know how much formal 55 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: education Jimmy Hoffa was able to achieve. Uh, you know, 56 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: you'll hear's. Historians say they don't know whether he reached 57 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: high school, much less graduated, but we know that eventually, 58 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: while he was in school, he had to drop out. 59 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: He had to help support his family, so he worked 60 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: on the loading dock for a chain of grocery stores 61 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: there in Detroit. Wait, and while working there, imagine how 62 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: young this guy is. While working there, he organizes his 63 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: very first labor strike and it all hinges on shipments 64 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: of strawberries. Yeah, and he actually was pretty demonstrating some 65 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: pretty serious streets smart to this point already because he 66 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: used a recent shipment of strawberries as leverage to help 67 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: get his coworkers better deal, better contracts um for their labor. 68 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: They refused to unload the strawberries until they had secured better, 69 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: better pay and in the thirties, well, I just have 70 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: to say right there with the strawberries, like, that's a 71 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: smart thing because strawberries go bad pretty quickly, and if 72 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: you don't unload the strawberries, he's like he was coming 73 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: up the works for everybody basically by doing that. And 74 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: the it's interesting how it's set a timer, like very 75 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: clear timer on when you're gonna lose all your money 76 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: on these strawberries, and you're also losing money because that 77 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: truck is now stuck there. It was just really smart. 78 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: Have worked with canps, Honestly, it wouldn't because this CANPS, 79 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, hard to say if that was 80 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: just like a serendipitous thing, or if he very much 81 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 1: you know, was being calculated about that. But it was 82 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 1: absolutely a smart move and he got what he wanted. 83 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 1: Then in the nineteen thirties, um Hafa officially joined the 84 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: International Brotherhood of Teamsters, which is what he went on 85 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: to become the president of at least the union's Detroit chapter. UM. 86 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: So he kind of laid the groundwork for a career 87 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: UH in labor um and and it would seem it came. 88 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: He came by honestly based on his you know, trajectory 89 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 1: and his upbringing at that point. Yeah, and we should 90 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: also stop too for anyone who doesn't know. Doubtless, doubtlessly 91 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 1: we have several Teamsters in the audience today, but a 92 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: lot of people in this country and abroad don't really 93 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: know what a teamster is. The teamster, the old word 94 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: atomo logically is like someone who drives a team of horses. 95 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: Right now, ac cordy to their website teamster dot org. 96 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: The Teamsters are America's largest, most diverse union. UH. They 97 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: started in nineteen o three is the merger of two 98 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: team driver associations t E A M. By the way, 99 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: not teen in case, my annunciation is off, and today 100 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: you will you may be most familiar with them as 101 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 1: truck drivers, right, because we've replaced to a great degree, 102 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: we've replaced animal labor with mechanical labor. So at this 103 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: time he is uh, he is. As you said, Noel 104 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: joined up with the Teamsters. He starts as the president 105 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: of the Detroit chapter. For many less ambitious people, that 106 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: would be the version of making it. You know what 107 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm king of the town. And the thing 108 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: is that halfa is not a guy satisfied with being 109 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: a big fish in a small town. Make no mistake, 110 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: he is a shark. He expands you in membership. He 111 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: quickly garners a reputation for getting better contract agreements by 112 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: any means necessary. Cough cough, corruption, cough cough, mafia cough cough, 113 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: uh cough. Right, But he started out honest, right, That's 114 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: the very important thing. By nineteen fifty two, he's vice 115 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: president of the entire union, so not just Detroit, but 116 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: the entire international brotherhood of Teamsters, and just five years 117 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: after that, nineteen fifty seven, he is the president of 118 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: the entire organization. It's one of these things where, especially 119 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: in the way he's portrayed in film like, I haven't 120 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: been a long time since I've seen that Jack Nicholson 121 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: uh film that believed any de Vito directed, It's called Hafa. 122 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: But at least in The Irishman, you do get the 123 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: sense that he felt as though he were still representing 124 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: the common man and doing something positive, even though he 125 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: was clearly um heading up what was not a strictly 126 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:02,239 Speaker 1: legal enterprise. He he seemed like he maybe could convinced 127 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: himself that it was all for the greater good. It 128 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: was all for getting his fellow brothers a better deal, 129 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: like with the strawberries. But in order to do that, 130 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: you know, we're swimming with sharks here. We gotta play 131 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: nice with the sharks, a bigger, bigger shark exactly, because 132 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: it's all about us versus them mentality, and in this case, 133 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: us did include some pretty um nefarious characters. Halfa was 134 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: to be the subject of numerous criminal investigations and and 135 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: it was a shadow that kind of relentlessly followed him 136 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: throughout his career, and this is portrayed really really well 137 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: in the in the s Carsese film. Um wasn't entirely 138 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: surprising his direct predecessor, Dave Beck, had also been investigated 139 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: and he was ultimately tried and convicted of corrupt practices 140 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: within the union. Dave Beck, which was convicted, which gave 141 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 1: half of the opportunity to ascend to this position, yet 142 00:08:55,720 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: half a persevered Nineteen sixty four was a big year 143 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: for him in a number of ways, not all of 144 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: them fantastic. His big win was that he got nearly 145 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: all of the truck drivers in the entire continent of 146 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: North America under a single contract. Uncle Sam have been 147 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: keeping an eye on Jimmy, and they thought there was 148 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: something rotten in the teamster's something fishy about his rise 149 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: to fame and his success. Now at this point, he 150 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: is very, very similar to a well known politician, or 151 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: maybe even to some degree of celebrity. Right, the FBI 152 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: and then U S. Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy are 153 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: watching Haffa very closely. They are convinced that a lot 154 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 1: of his union success is less a result of being 155 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: a shrewd negotiator and more a result of a close 156 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: collaboration with organized crime also known as the mob or 157 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: the mafia. Right, so what else happened in nineteen sixty Well, 158 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 1: halfa himself was found guilty of a couple of things, 159 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: bribery for one, also jury tampering. Jury tampering the good 160 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: old j T when when something goes wrong and somebody 161 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: knows it, you gotta tamper a little bit. Yeah, right, 162 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: like and and that can be really that could be 163 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: really terrible or just going like here's a hundred dollars, 164 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: don't don't talk about me, or it could yeah, or 165 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: it could be something to the level of you know, 166 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: memories a funny thing, Mr Smith, you know what I mean. 167 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 1: Like sometimes you think you remember, so you look back 168 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 1: and you realize you don't remember it too good. After all, 169 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: you know, it could have been anybody there. But you 170 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: know one thing, one thing you never forget is your 171 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: children smile. And it's wonderful will be able to see 172 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 1: that every day instead of just looking back and and 173 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: remembering it and wishing you could say hello to him. 174 00:10:55,720 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: Oh boy, oh boy, that was really good. That's just 175 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: the science of memory. I was gonna say, just like 176 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: casually mentioning his or her daughter's birthday, but like that's 177 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: like that was on that was on the was on 178 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: the money. Well, that's cinematic I'm sure it was much 179 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: more subtle, yes, but but that stuff that that's when 180 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: he he was found guilty of both of those things 181 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: in connection with a previous trial that he had that 182 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: he had gone through in nineteen two years prior. Yeah, 183 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: he was on trial for conspiracy, which I love you 184 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: that people could be convicted of conspiracy. And then he 185 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: was found guilty in sixty four for charges related to, 186 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: as you said, Matt conspiracy. So that was one bad 187 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: thing that happened to him that year. Yeah, he's also 188 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: convicted of misusing funds from the union's pension plan. And 189 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: that's a big note in the in the film that 190 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: Scorsese did, and also a note I believe in the 191 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: book I Heard You Paint Houses, because the union's pension 192 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 1: fund was an enormous amount of money and he pretty 193 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: much had direct control over it, so he could make 194 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 1: the money dance to the tunes he chose, and a 195 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: lot of those tunes were mafia backed projects, like in 196 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: Las Vegas, for example, um paying for wings to be 197 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: constructed on you know, casinos, and as we know, a 198 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: lot of that money came directly from the mob to 199 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,439 Speaker 1: start you know, Las Vegas. In the first place. So 200 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: there were those relationships, uh that were ongoing and directly 201 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: tied to dipping into that money, which would then be 202 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: invested and get a return. It's not like he was 203 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: stealing money from the pensioners people who would do that money. 204 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: But it was still playing fast and loose with the rules. 205 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: You know, you're telling me that organized crime organizations launder 206 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: money through things like labor unions. It's true, map money laundry, 207 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: but it's got a great return. I'm just gonna say, 208 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: if everything goes well, there's a great return for that stuff. Uh. Yeah, 209 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: money laundering was it was a big part of it. Also, 210 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: at what point do this Maybe a story for a 211 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: different day, but at what point do campaign donations become 212 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: um illegal? Right? At what point would be interfering with 213 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: the democratic process? Well, I mean, all you gotta do 214 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: is make him unlimited and then you're good to go 215 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: that I should fix all those problems. Right, Well, I 216 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: think it's safe for for the five of us. Uh, 217 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: Paul Noel met myself and you listening to agree that 218 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: Jimmy Hoffa probably did not deal with these philosophical quandaries 219 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: in the same way. It's just cost of doing business. 220 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: So after three years fighting these charges that his lawyer 221 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: and and you know again as depicted in the in 222 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: ther Citi film, it was a union lawyer, UM who 223 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: was also very aware of what was going on, made 224 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: the argument that this was all trumped up. Um. He 225 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: had exhausted his appeals finally and he got thirteen years 226 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 1: in prison in the nineteen sixty seven he was incarcerated 227 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: in the Louisbourg Federal Prison in Pennsylvania. UH. And then 228 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: came along UH a like minded individual who has sent 229 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:08,719 Speaker 1: it to the presidency, a little guy by the name 230 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: of Richard Nixon who commuted half a sentence in seventy one, 231 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 1: essentially giving him a part in a presidential pardon with 232 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: a year and a half of probation. However, this came 233 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: with a string attached. Nixon band half of from holding 234 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: any union leadership position at least until nineteen So bit 235 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: of a slap on the wrists. It's a weird one too, 236 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: because it's a string with a time limit. He's not 237 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: saying stay out of the game, your dirty rat. He's saying, 238 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: just sit on the bench until the eighties. Let's let 239 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: the heat die down a little bit. Well, and it's 240 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: so it's so odd to me that Nixon the president, 241 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: came through and said, you know what, it's okay, is 242 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: it odd? You're good? You're good man, You're gonna be okay. 243 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: It's only been a couple of years. You got thirteen, 244 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: You'll be all right. Well half a donated heavily. Oh, 245 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: I know it's campaigned, but just too to be able 246 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: to get a president to do that, no matter how 247 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: much money you're donating to them, because in the end, 248 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: it's you know, the public appearance of something like that. 249 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: But here's the deal. Jimmy Hoffa and a lot of 250 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: labor union leaders out there are like hugely beloved no 251 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: matter what they're doing, no matter what they've been convicted of. 252 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: Will you know, over the course of time and history, 253 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: will be beloved because there is this this perception, at 254 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: least from the outside. And and you know, like we said, 255 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: Jimmy Hoffa thought that he was doing the right thing, 256 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: or at least appeared to believe he was doing the 257 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: right least at the beginning. The ideology outweighed the ego 258 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: that exactly that ideology it ripples out through the public 259 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: of people who are assisted in that way. And this 260 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: is a one to one and some might accuse me 261 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: of being hyperbolic here, but it's almost the way you 262 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: hear about, uh, the way folks in my dan treated 263 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: Pablo Escobar, you know, very clearly bad guy, doing at things, 264 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: hurting people, probably directly hurting individuals in that community. But 265 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: there's this perception that he's the best chance they've got, 266 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: or he's actually looking out for the little people, you know, 267 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: and he cares in some way, and they call him 268 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: sant Pablo and all that stuff, even though completely transparent 269 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: that this guy is is no good. Well, in Haffa, 270 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: wasn't some mob boss, no exactly, but I don't want 271 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: to draw one similar exactly, but there's intentions to look 272 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: out for the the labor class, of the working class. 273 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: We can imagine, you know, I think that is a 274 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: good comparison. We can imagine supporters of Escobar and supporters 275 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: of Haffa, not that they're the same in the same 276 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: line of business, but we can imagine the supporters saying, hey, 277 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: this guy is the reason that we have a paycheck. 278 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: This is the reason that my family can live comfortably 279 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: or better than they would have otherwise. So we have 280 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: to remember also that with his enormous power, Jimmy Hoffa 281 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: could move the vote. He could sway hundreds of thousands 282 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: of people to vote for or against a given candidate. 283 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: And for the next few years, half A wages something 284 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: very like a war. He's fighting that ban on leadership 285 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: in court. He doesn't want to wait till and he's 286 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: also working behind the scenes, with mixed success, to reconsolidate 287 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: his power base within the Union. And then, of course, 288 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: as even a casual student of history will recall, things 289 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: don't work out the way half A planned. Or did they. 290 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: We're going to rejoin him on July after a word 291 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 1: from our sponsor, and we're back. J Halfa is in 292 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: a state of what the streets called deep beef. He 293 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: has numerous enemies, he hasn't made a ton of friends, 294 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: and he's alienated many of the friends he had. But 295 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: he wants to make peace, and he realizes he might 296 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: have to eat some crow, he might have to swallow 297 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: his pride, he might have to make some inroads with 298 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: people he swore he would never work with again. So 299 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: he leaves his home in Detroit and he meets the 300 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: two Tony's Anthony Tony Jack and Uh Anthony Tony Prow. 301 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: Tony Jack is a figure in the Detroit crime scene. 302 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 1: Tony pro is a mob affiliated union leader who's based 303 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,959 Speaker 1: in New Jersey. So they're supposed to meet at this 304 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 1: restaurant in Bloomfield Township. Is that the Marcus red Fox? 305 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 1: I believe so, yeah, that they're gonna they're gonna squash 306 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 1: the beef. They're gonna settle their feud. At least that's 307 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: what Haffa thinks. So shows up, what we believe, at least, 308 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: his car shows up, and he appears to be the 309 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: only one there. You know, he's there. He's gonna meet 310 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: two people, but half was the only guy there, and 311 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 1: he's wondering what's going on. Assume we assume, because really 312 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: we have no idea. We have no evidence at least 313 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: that is um, that is concrete as to what occurred 314 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: after he showed up at that restaurant, or at least 315 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: when his car showed up, because his car was there. 316 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: But he was never seen again by anyone except for 317 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: the people responsible for what happened to him, or himself 318 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: responsible for whatever happened to him. It's a mystery. It's 319 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: one of the most longstanding mysteries that has existed in 320 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: this country, and um, yeah, one of America's most prominent, divisive, 321 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: important public figures had simply Kay's are associated. He disappeared 322 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:57,719 Speaker 1: and we're almost a half a century into the post 323 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: halfa era? So what happened to Jimmy Hoffa? Here's where 324 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: it gets crazy. The answer really depends on who who 325 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: you ask. There's no shortage of theories that have popped 326 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 1: up over the intervening decades, and the most popular suspects 327 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: being the mob of course. But in some cases this 328 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: surprised me. US federal agencies. Interesting, right, did you guys 329 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: hear about that one? That's a weird one for sure. 330 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: I mean it makes sense considering that he was such 331 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: a persona on grata like for you know, Kennedy and 332 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: the U. S. Government. I mean, they were after him, 333 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: and he more or less shook the rap and then 334 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: was able to kind of get back into the game. 335 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: Well we'll get into it a little bit further, but 336 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: there's also the idea that a federal agency was involved, 337 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: but not in disappearing him by killing him or anything, 338 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: but by putting him into a protection of some sort. Right, Yeah, 339 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: so at this point in the if we take the 340 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: high level look at it, at this point in the 341 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: world of conspiracy and speculation, the fate of Jimmy Hoffa's 342 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: kind of entered urban legend status, which means that the 343 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: theories start to obey some of the troops we would 344 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: associate with folk tales or oral tradition. The general consensus 345 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: now is that the mob conspired to kill Haffa because 346 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,199 Speaker 1: they wanted to stop him from becoming the King of 347 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: the Teamsters again. And that's because while he was locked up, 348 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: even though he wasn't locked up for the full thirteen 349 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: year sentence, while he was locked up, his former vice 350 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: president got pretty cozy with the mob, even more so 351 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: than Haffa was, and he was much more willing to 352 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: play some games. When Jimmy Hoffa got out, uh the 353 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: wise guys, the mafios knew that he would try to 354 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: rain them in a little bit and they wouldn't be 355 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: able to play all the reindeer games that they had 356 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: become so accustomed to. Make no mistake, they were probably 357 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: make ging more money under that vice president. What was 358 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: his name meant that was Frank fitz Simmons, Frank Edward I. 359 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: Believe Frankie Fitz. Yeah, so they were making they're probably 360 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: making more money under Frankie Fitz. Who on earth would 361 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: say no to UH to continuing to enhance their profits. 362 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 1: They weren't keen to mess with that relationship. So the 363 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: idea then is that the mob killed him or disappeared him, 364 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: and we see a lot of common troops. Just like 365 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 1: in other forms of folklore, there are tons of variations 366 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: on this theory. It's kind of like a kind of 367 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: like a bar joke or something, you know, where it's 368 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: like X walks into a bar. They followed the same, 369 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 1: just a mob hit and then some sort of industrial 370 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 1: process to destroy or hide Haffa's body. There are a 371 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: ton of examples, Yes, there are, indeed. Um One of 372 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: them is that Haffa was killed, placed in the trunk 373 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: of a car, then the car was crushed in a 374 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 1: mob affiliated scrapyard. Um. That would be a pretty clever 375 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: way to go about it, wouldn't that leave a lot 376 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: of physical evidence? Though, Like I don't know, you gotta 377 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 1: will get a wonder with it, like seep out the 378 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: cubed car, like the remains or anything like that. I 379 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 1: wonder what that would look like, Yeah, I imagine, so 380 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: it would have to definitely be a tightly controlled scrap yards. 381 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: Scrap yards can be really big. But this was also 382 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 1: in the days before DNA testings. True, it wouldn't fly today. No, 383 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: certainly not as much, specially if it was a known 384 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: kind of mob tied facility or whatever. Another one is 385 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: that he was hit in the head with a shovel 386 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: and buried alive. Where are these coming from? Cheeze dramatic? 387 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: I like it, but that one doesn't make the most sense. 388 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: Do you have any providence for the for the for 389 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: the origin of a one. Yeah, that one comes to 390 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: us from the great rumor mill. That doesn't That one 391 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: doesn't have a lot of sand to it. A lot 392 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: of a lot of these examples that we find came 393 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: out later after because of course this happened before DNA. 394 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,479 Speaker 1: It also happened before internet, right, So a lot of 395 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: these come about from statements by former mafia associated individuals, 396 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,479 Speaker 1: usually when they are attempting to seem as though they 397 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: have leverage so that they can get some juice with 398 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 1: the FEDS, maybe get a better deal up to an 399 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,880 Speaker 1: including relocation and immunity makes sense, and that also makes 400 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: sense for some of the ones to follow, uh, which 401 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: seemed to be kind of variations on a theme. Right. 402 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: Halfa was murdered and his remains replaced in an oil 403 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: drum um Halfa and one container or another was thrown 404 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: into the Great Lakes, or was abducted by the FEDS 405 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: and thrown from an airplane. It's a waterproof planned full proof. 406 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 1: That's uh. I just think about that. When has when 407 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 1: has anybody said, you know, the best way to get 408 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: rid of this prominent figure is to take them on 409 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: an airplane and then, in full view of anyone who 410 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: happens to be, you know, looking up, let's throw them 411 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: from the plane. It doesn't that one, okay, So that 412 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: one comes from the FED. One specifically comes from a 413 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: guy named Joseph Franco. I have no idea whether he's 414 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: related to the actor. He was an old one time 415 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: associate of Haffa's, and Franco said that he kept the 416 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: story to himself for years because he wanted to use 417 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: the info as leverage in negotiating an immunity deal if 418 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: he were caught for other unrelated crimes. Spoiler alert, It 419 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: did not work out for Franco. No, it did not. 420 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: There's one that Paul is a particular fan of as well, 421 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 1: The idea that, uh, halfa became this sort of grizzly 422 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: hidden landmark for a sports team. Oh yeah. The idea 423 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: is that half was dispatched, shot baby whatever it was. 424 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: Then he was his limbs were taken apart, he was dismembered, 425 00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: then frozen, and then get this guess, buried inside the 426 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: cement foundation of Giants Stadium. Now, this was then located 427 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: in Rutherford, New Jersey and East Rutherford, New Jersey. So 428 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: what's interesting about this, just to interject, is that there's 429 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 1: a nice mythic tie in here because in some ancient 430 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: civilizations and cultures thought when you were building a place 431 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: of great import, you were required to make a blood 432 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: sacrifice of some sort. This and cats in there right 433 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,640 Speaker 1: right now. This doesn't work with that kind of left 434 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: hand path stuff because the idea is that he wasn't 435 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: killed on the site. If you really want the magic 436 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: to hit, it's got to happen, you know, live and 437 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: direct on the place where you plan to lay the stones. Yeah. Yeah, 438 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 1: I can't remember the movie that I just watched that 439 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: talked all about that, but it had uh the actor 440 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: who plays the Queen of Dragons. Uh. She was in 441 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: it and it was like a haunting horror movie on Netflix. Anyway, 442 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: I'll check it out. It's out there. They they mentioned 443 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: they mentioned burying a cat like oh and alive cat 444 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: in the in the walls jerks. Yeah. Gross. Well anyway, 445 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: in this case, it was in Giants stadium. Uh. And 446 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: this is pretty crazy because it originates from an interview 447 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: that a guy named Donald Francos gave in ninety nine 448 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 1: to Playboy magazine, which I want to say, at the 449 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: time was doing great journalism. Actually still Playboys Soldiers on. 450 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: I'm not as familiar. I'm not as familiar with modern 451 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: Playboy nowadays. I mean, there's the old joke that you 452 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: just read it for the articles, but apparently, like for 453 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: a while, it was absolutely a place where a lot 454 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,959 Speaker 1: of short stories writers broke their work and kind of 455 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: went on to great things. My favorite Shell Silver Steam 456 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 1: poem was published in Playboy, and I stole a copy 457 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: as a kid so I could read the poem. Isn't 458 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: that weird? That is quite It's good. It's about the devil. 459 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: It's a whole thing. The one that was kind of filthy, Yes, 460 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: remember that one. That's a good one. What's the what's 461 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: the name of that? Oh, gosh, the devil and Billy Markham, 462 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: that's the one. Yeah. Um. And in that article in Playboy, 463 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,479 Speaker 1: Um he claimed that Haffa was killed by a New 464 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 1: York Irish mafia boss by the name of Jimmy Coonan 465 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: and buried um at the home field of the New 466 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: York Giants in New York Jets football teams, so ac 467 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: Cordy to Franco's after Conan shot halfa with a silence 468 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: twenty two caliber pistol in a house in Mount Clemens, Michigan, 469 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: he in New York mafia hitman John Sullivan bagged up 470 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: the body parts and stored them in a freezer for months. 471 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: See that's weird because you would think you would want 472 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: to get rid of the body as soon as you can, 473 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: because every time anybody else who knows about the freezer, 474 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: even if they don't know there's a body in it, 475 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: could be uh an knew of exposure. But okay, so 476 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: they've gotten in this freezer for months. Apparently nobody opens 477 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:07,959 Speaker 1: the freezer in this part of town. What do they 478 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: do after those months have passed? Well, you find a 479 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: stadium that is under construction, a giant concrete monstrosity, and 480 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: you find a place where concrete is being poured and 481 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: you place it surreptitiously underneath there. Right, that's the whole idea. 482 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: So so for real, though, Giant Stadium was under construction 483 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: and it was going to open up the next year, 484 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: or it was planned to at least, the bags were 485 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: then mixed into the concrete foundation in what became a 486 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: certain section. So if you go, if you went to 487 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,479 Speaker 1: Giant Stadium and you looked at section one oh seven 488 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: down there deep, that's where Jimmy Hoffa late at least 489 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: according to this theory. And this section was located near 490 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: the end zone of the stadium's football field. There's one 491 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: one of the end zones. Yeah, there's one problem with this, 492 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,959 Speaker 1: which is that there is no evidence other than these 493 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: claims by people speaking years after the fact. In fact, 494 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: the FBI, while they had initially entertained most descriptions or 495 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: allegations of the fate of Jimmy Hoffa, and they you know, 496 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: days and months following his disappearance, Uh, they really cooled 497 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: on this theory. And when the stadium was demolished in 498 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: the FBI did not even bother to show up and 499 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: search the site because they put him there. I'm just kidding, 500 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: that's that's not true. I'm joking, you know. I just 501 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: I don't think people really get thrown from planes as 502 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: often as fiction would have us believe. Well, that's the 503 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: that's the other part of the stories. He was thrown 504 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: from a plane and he went right through, straight through 505 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: that concrete and just like embedded inside there. And then 506 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: oh and the FBI went good enough, he was wet, 507 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: the concrete was still wet, and he just went, uh, 508 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: so let's get back to she writ she Wren is 509 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: the source of the claims that are made in the 510 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: book I Heard You Paint Houses? Uh and the Irishman. 511 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: The film is based in the book I Heard You 512 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: Paint Houses, she Wren says that he had betrayed Jimmy Hoffa, 513 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: and he says multiple times that Jimmy Hoffa was a 514 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: friend of his right and he said he pulled the 515 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: trigger because it was inevitable that someone was gonna kill 516 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: halfa and so he thought he felt honor bound that 517 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: it should be him, and he thought, also, you know, 518 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: at least I'll make it quick he'll die instantly. So 519 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: here's what he said happened. He said that he brought 520 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: halfa to a house in northwestern Detroit, and he stood 521 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: behind Jimmy Hoffa, and while Jimmy hoff was distracted, she 522 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: Wren shot him twice in the back of the head 523 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: the double tap, and then he said they cremated Haffa's 524 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: remains and a traction senerator in the suburbs of Detroit. 525 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: She Wren actually gave the address of the house, and 526 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: we'll get to this. Uh, we gave the address of 527 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: the house where the murders supposedly took place. Investigators treated seriously. 528 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: They searched this for evidence of the killing, and they 529 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: found traces of blood in the house, but later testing 530 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: revealed that this blood did not belong to Haffa, so 531 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: someone probably died. Maybe she Wrin was just misbearemembering this, however, 532 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: was just one of several searches conducted. Will get to 533 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: a few of those after a word from our sponsor, 534 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: and we're back. Now let's get into some of the 535 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: official attempts to find Jimmy, offer to recover his body, 536 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: or even to locate him if he was still alive. 537 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: Um so let's get let's jump to nineteen nine to 538 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: the FBI and Kenneth Walton, he's the agent in charge 539 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: of the FBI's Detroit office, and he was speaking with 540 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: the Detroit News UH in nine and he was talking 541 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: about how he knew what had happened to Halfa, And 542 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: we have a quote from him here, I'm comfortable, I 543 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: know who did it, but it's never going to be 544 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: prosecuted because we would have to divulge informants confidential sources. 545 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:14,719 Speaker 1: Informants confidential sources. Yeah. Well, now let's just say I 546 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: can imagine in a case like this, with somebody like 547 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: Jimmy Hoffa that has so many connections to probably multiple 548 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: organized criminal organizations. Um that if you did, let's say, 549 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: charge somebody that you knew or you were aware of 550 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: who did it. But if by doing that, it's going 551 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: to compromise like two or three major let's say vice 552 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: investigations or you know, uh, investigations of conspiracy, like that 553 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: would be a hard that would be a difficult choice 554 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: to make, at least just to find the killer or 555 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: to apprehend the killer of another known criminal or associated criminal. 556 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: So like, why would why would you give up on 557 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 1: this other thing that is viable right now, just to 558 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: just to close that case. I don't know, yeah, because 559 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: if and I don't want to put words into the 560 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: mouths of the law enforcement here, but I think it's 561 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: a fantastic point, because if you think that someone is 562 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: already inherently corrupting kind of a dirt bag for one 563 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: reason or another, then do you feel the same moral 564 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: obligation to pursue a case, especially if it means pursuing 565 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: that case may uh preclude your ability to lock up 566 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: other living criminals who are out there still doing things 567 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: that you find morally or you know, legally, um terrible. 568 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: That's a really good point, man, I don't I mean 569 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: it would it would make sense that that Walton at 570 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: least believe, like truly believed he knew. Yeah, And I 571 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: would say also, I would say also to as as 572 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: anyone in the enforcement community listening to the show today, 573 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: including our n s A interns, even knows full well, uh, 574 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: I imagine that the vast majority of professionals working in 575 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: those fields would say, well, it doesn't matter whether I 576 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 1: like someone who is a victim of a crime. It's 577 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: my job, it's my career. Correct. But it is a 578 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: cold hard fact that somebody somewhere would have to make 579 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: the decision to, you know, if if there was and 580 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: this is the big if here, if there was a 581 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: conflict in that way that we're speaking of here, somebody 582 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: would have to make the decision to either continue uh 583 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: searching for Hafa and going down those leads, or saying, okay, 584 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 1: we gotta leave this alone. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's true, 585 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: it's true. The search continues. In two thousand and one, Uh, 586 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,280 Speaker 1: you know, we had mentioned earlier the lack of DNA 587 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 1: evidence for testing. Now forensic DNA is a thing, forensic 588 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 1: DNA investigation. Rather, in two thousand one, these hair strands 589 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: found in the nineteen seventy five Mercury Marquis linked Haffa 590 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: to a vehicle that authorities believed was used in this disappearance. 591 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: This vehicle, this Mercury, was owned by a friend of 592 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: Haffa's named Charles Chucky O'Brien, and they were actually they 593 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:21,280 Speaker 1: were actually friends. Police and uh survivors. Members of Haffa's 594 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 1: family had always believed that O'Brien played some sort of 595 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 1: role in the disappearance, but O'Brien for decades had denied 596 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,839 Speaker 1: being involved in any shape, form or fashion. He said, 597 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: In fact, Halfa had never even been a passenger in 598 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,800 Speaker 1: his car. Now, just a tip here for all the 599 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: ne'er do wells in the crowd today. If you want 600 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: a stone wall, that's a pretty that's a pretty good 601 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: way to do it, you know what I mean. That's 602 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: like just under the level of playing so dumb that 603 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: you say I own a car. Yeah, okay, we found 604 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: these hairs of Jimmy Hoffas in your car here. He's 605 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: never even been in there. I don't want a car. 606 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: What's hair? Guys, this is a lot for me to 607 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: take in. Gosh. But uh but this lead this search 608 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: also peter doubt because you see authorities linked Haffa or 609 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,760 Speaker 1: is Us some strands of his hair to the car, 610 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: but they were not able to determine when Halfa would 611 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 1: have been in the car. This also could mean that 612 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: since he and Chucky hang out a lot, that maybe 613 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,360 Speaker 1: the hair just got on some of Chucky's clothing or something. 614 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: And I think we maybe bury the lead here a 615 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 1: little bit. Chucky was uh more than just a friend. 616 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,839 Speaker 1: He was half A's adopted son. And the way it's 617 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: portraying the movie. I was a little confused about it too, 618 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: because there's a scene where somebody pulls a gun on 619 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: Halfa during one of his trials or like, you know, 620 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: one of his corruption trials, and Chucky kicks the crap 621 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 1: out of the guy, and Haffa makes a big scene 622 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,359 Speaker 1: about saying, as my boy, you know, like I raised 623 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,760 Speaker 1: him or whatever. You run from a knife, your charge 624 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,720 Speaker 1: a gun, You charge a gun exactly, um point being 625 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 1: it wasn't his blood sign, it wasn't his uh biological sign, 626 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: but essentially was someone he had taken under his wing 627 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: and referred to more or less as his adopted So 628 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: so my question is surely he if they were as 629 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: close as as as the record indicates, he would have 630 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,840 Speaker 1: been in that car before. He's never been in my car. 631 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: What is a car? I have a car. I don't understand, 632 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: Charles w Chucky O'Brien. So there were more searches. They've continued. 633 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: We mentioned that two thousand and twelve search based on 634 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,919 Speaker 1: the testimony of she Won or the statements of she Wren. 635 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: Investigators did search that residents based on a tip two 636 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: thousand twelve. They didn't they didn't find anything, and they 637 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,839 Speaker 1: found some blood, but it wasn't office. I think every 638 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: time I hear the name Shearon, she Ra, Oh you know, yeah, 639 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 1: that wasn't me. I never understood what wasn't she woman 640 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: because there was this internal consistent he man, Yeah, and 641 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,399 Speaker 1: then she Ra. Why couldn't it be he Ra? That'd 642 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 1: be cool. Actually, I was more of a ThunderCats guy. 643 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: I was the superior Muscley mutant show in my opinion. 644 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: Oh wow, we're doing the low fi dub step. That 645 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:28,840 Speaker 1: was kind of the Hank Hill versus I was gonna. 646 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: I thought it's gonna be so much more intense than that. 647 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:34,800 Speaker 1: I was kind of bracing myself, and because we were 648 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 1: we were reacting to your brace. It was we held 649 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: back because you were clearly I think we both thought 650 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,240 Speaker 1: that you were. You were just letting the moment build 651 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,360 Speaker 1: and you were going to scream it. Oh yeah, it 652 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,959 Speaker 1: was great. We'll fix it in post No, I don't 653 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 1: need it, so it was great. Yeah, unrelated. Rewatched the 654 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,839 Speaker 1: live action he man, I liked it. You know who 655 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: plays Skeletor uh not Dolph Loren uh Frank, No, Yeah, 656 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,760 Speaker 1: that's it. And he he's the only person who hasn't 657 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,320 Speaker 1: disowned the film because his kids liked it. He played 658 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 1: a very strange skeletor. Also, you know, some toy lines 659 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,400 Speaker 1: just don't have the narrative heft to hold a feature. 660 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:22,360 Speaker 1: You know, they even had man at arms in there. Anyway, 661 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 1: what else was Franklin go in? Oh yeah, he's in 662 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff, but he was not in the 663 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: Halfa investigation. Probably to wrap this one up. In uh June, 664 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 1: the FBI gets another tip and they search of field 665 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,719 Speaker 1: in Oakland Township, Michigan. That's about twenty miles away from 666 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: where Halfa was last scene. There was a guy involved 667 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: in crime named Tony Zarelli. Not the stereotype, but this 668 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 1: is there's a Tony heavy tail and Zarelli gave the 669 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 1: gave the authorities info about where he said Halfa was buried. 670 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,399 Speaker 1: He also described how Halfa died. He said, Oh yeah, 671 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: he's the he's the person who said that Halfa was 672 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: hit on the head with a shovel and buried alive. 673 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: But he said this in an e book that he 674 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 1: was selling for profit. Uh And nothing came of it. 675 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: So either the authorities were bad at digging or Zarelli 676 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,319 Speaker 1: was miss from remembering. But at this point, no one 677 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: no one has verified any remains. The closest they've come 678 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 1: would be those strands of hair with Halfa's DNA. But 679 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 1: this also leads us to controversies. The Irishman is based on, 680 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:42,280 Speaker 1: as we said, a single book. Both Scorsese and de Niro, 681 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: who plays she Wren, described the character she Wren in 682 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: the film as a fictional persona based on or loosely 683 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:54,280 Speaker 1: inspired by the real guy. And furthermore, not all Halfa 684 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:58,359 Speaker 1: experts agree with she Wren's story. A couple of them 685 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: think it's total millar. Oh. Yeah. The author, Dan Moldea, 686 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,520 Speaker 1: he wrote the book The Halfa Wars and he's been 687 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:10,800 Speaker 1: researching the disappearance of this gentleman for God for years. 688 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 1: So he was speaking with Robert de Niro and he 689 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: basically was trying to ward off de Niro, saying that he, 690 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: you know, he's got all these doubts about sheering story, 691 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 1: and he's telling DeNiro that sheer and Brandt were I for, 692 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: let's say, essentially running a con job on DeNiro saying 693 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,440 Speaker 1: this is you should not be doing this, so like 694 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 1: why would you make this movie? Um? But again like 695 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,879 Speaker 1: this is pretty this is a pretty interesting story. Even 696 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: if it's not true, I would say it's it's pretty 697 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,879 Speaker 1: good storytelling and and it makes me want to watch it. 698 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,480 Speaker 1: Are we in spoiler territory here for the film? I 699 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,480 Speaker 1: feel like we've kind of danced around it, right, Uh 700 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,279 Speaker 1: we can, Yeah, we could go ahead. Let's do the 701 00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:00,080 Speaker 1: spoiler countdown because it is a new film. Three you 702 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 1: and one there's I was. I didn't, I didn't haven't 703 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 1: done my homework. Is that much Before watching this I 704 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,279 Speaker 1: knew it was based on a book. I did not 705 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,480 Speaker 1: realize that it was meant to be unequivocally like this 706 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 1: guy killed Jimmy Hoffa, And when the moment in the 707 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 1: film where that happens, I wasn't expecting it. And then 708 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:25,279 Speaker 1: I immediately googled Irish men fiction, you know, And I 709 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,400 Speaker 1: think that's sort of the consensus is that it's a 710 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,319 Speaker 1: little more fiction or at least, you know, conflation of 711 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 1: fact and fiction and is pure uh nonfiction storytelling, because 712 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: it again is based on one book, one man's account, 713 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,319 Speaker 1: a deathbed confession. Essentially, you know, this guy did not 714 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: live much longer past this interview, and that's that's got 715 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 1: dramatized in the film as well, the fact that he's 716 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 1: delivering this story to the perspective camera, which is you know, 717 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,400 Speaker 1: supposed to be the journalist of you know, which is 718 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 1: you are the stand in for that kind of as 719 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,880 Speaker 1: a viewer. Excellent film. But when I saw that, I 720 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 1: was like, WHOA, Okay, I guess we're this is sort 721 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:05,879 Speaker 1: of a hybrid thing I'm seeing here, like Once upon 722 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,799 Speaker 1: a Time in Hollywood for example. Um, but if you 723 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,359 Speaker 1: are to believe the book, then this this is how 724 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,239 Speaker 1: it happened. I do want to bring something up my 725 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,800 Speaker 1: my father in law talked with me about this pretty extensively. 726 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,200 Speaker 1: His he is also a Tony and he told me that, 727 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 1: without getting into too much detail, if this kind of 728 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,359 Speaker 1: thing was going to go down with somebody like Jimmy Hoffa, 729 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:33,759 Speaker 1: the only way you could pull it off is to 730 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 1: get one of his closest associates or friends to do 731 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:41,800 Speaker 1: it himself. Because so it would make sense for Sharon's 732 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,239 Speaker 1: character to actually be the one who's able to get 733 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 1: close enough to do it. Because we haven't really talked 734 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 1: about this exactly, but I mean they're basically brothers in 735 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,680 Speaker 1: the film. And there's another character the has the Buffaloni 736 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: crime family you know, it was Russell's played by Joe Pesci, 737 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:03,120 Speaker 1: wonderful performance. Um. The three of them are kind of inseparable. 738 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 1: They're they're almost like a family. But Jimmy in particular 739 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,160 Speaker 1: gets a really close relationship with his daughter and that's 740 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:13,239 Speaker 1: the whole thing. Um. But yeah, he has trusts him 741 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,719 Speaker 1: like a like a blood brother. Well, one of the 742 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,120 Speaker 1: other reasons, I mean, think of the logistics. If you're 743 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 1: trying to pull off a job like this, you have 744 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:25,440 Speaker 1: somebody who not only has a protective close circle, but 745 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:32,000 Speaker 1: they also have a established schedule, calendar. People know where 746 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,160 Speaker 1: and when they're supposed to be at the majority of times. 747 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 1: It's not like if you're just doing you know, uh, 748 00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 1: if you're just landing in a strange town and finding 749 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:44,719 Speaker 1: someone under a bridge that no one will miss for 750 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,280 Speaker 1: a few weeks, Like this is an established thing where 751 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,920 Speaker 1: you have you know, you have at most probably a 752 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:56,400 Speaker 1: few hours to get out of town, right, So it's 753 00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,680 Speaker 1: it definitely I think your father in law is on 754 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:01,799 Speaker 1: the money. Yeah, and it's kind of scary, but yes, 755 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:06,000 Speaker 1: let's let's continue. So Dan Muldeya has his own theory. 756 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,279 Speaker 1: He believes half as disappearance was in his mind, a 757 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,440 Speaker 1: New Jersey operation. He said he's interviewed all the suspected 758 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:17,799 Speaker 1: killers in his decades long search for the truth of 759 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,800 Speaker 1: the matter, and he he thinks that it's most likely 760 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,560 Speaker 1: that it was a production of New Jersey operators. Paul 761 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:29,360 Speaker 1: Mission Control Decade raised a great point off air earlier 762 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,040 Speaker 1: when we were talking, and he said, one thing that 763 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:37,520 Speaker 1: he found, um, one thing that he found compelling was 764 00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,360 Speaker 1: that the story she runs account felt kind of understated, 765 00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:45,640 Speaker 1: like the way Nol depicted it. This this death is 766 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,879 Speaker 1: you know, there's not a lot of gravitas build up. 767 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:54,759 Speaker 1: It feels abrupt and brutal. If that is, and the 768 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,360 Speaker 1: last one was the last one, promise, If that is 769 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,799 Speaker 1: Jimmy Hoffa killed himself. We didn't talk about this. We're 770 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:02,719 Speaker 1: not gonna talk too much about it because there's not 771 00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,880 Speaker 1: a ton of evidence to lean on here. But what 772 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,880 Speaker 1: if he committed pseudo side, which, as we all know, 773 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 1: is the fancy pants cravat wearing word for faking one's death. Uh, 774 00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,560 Speaker 1: it is very very difficult to do successfully if you 775 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,439 Speaker 1: want to make any money. Um, it is not impossible 776 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:23,319 Speaker 1: to do if you want to just disappear and live 777 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,080 Speaker 1: by your wits or if you have access to someone 778 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:30,359 Speaker 1: who makes some very accurate idea of some sort. Right. 779 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:35,680 Speaker 1: Could he have gone uh with the federal witness Protection program? 780 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,960 Speaker 1: Could he have gone with your with the uh? Could 781 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,240 Speaker 1: he have gone with the institution that is sometimes called 782 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:47,799 Speaker 1: witless protection UH? And and if so, what happened to him? Well, 783 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:53,680 Speaker 1: we know that Jimmy Hoffa died for legal purposes on July. 784 00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,880 Speaker 1: He was declared legally dead as we record today's episode. 785 00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,920 Speaker 1: His disappearance and his likely death have yet to be confirmed. 786 00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:05,680 Speaker 1: Let's do a little math. If he were alive in 787 00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:08,960 Speaker 1: nineteen as we record this, he would be a hundred 788 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,040 Speaker 1: and six years old. That means even if somehow he 789 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,200 Speaker 1: actually went off the grid, you know, changed his name 790 00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 1: to Himmy Jaffa or whatever and lived in a small 791 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:24,560 Speaker 1: town in Saskatchewan or something, he probably already passed away. 792 00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,440 Speaker 1: But that hasn't stopped the investigation. As a matter of fact, 793 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:29,759 Speaker 1: this is this is one of the things we can 794 00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:35,120 Speaker 1: leave you with. The film and the book that we've 795 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:39,560 Speaker 1: mentioned today may have inspired US investigators to get back 796 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,520 Speaker 1: on the case. So this was December. This is right 797 00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:47,680 Speaker 1: now as we're recording this. As the Irishman has come out. Uh. 798 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,480 Speaker 1: There's an interview with U S attorney Matthew Schneider, and 799 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,520 Speaker 1: this guy was asked by you know, a reporter by 800 00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:56,080 Speaker 1: someone there, what do you you know? What do you 801 00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,719 Speaker 1: think about the Irishman? What are your thoughts? Well, his 802 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:03,600 Speaker 1: statement was, uh, certainly intriguing. I will talk about this, 803 00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,080 Speaker 1: but not now. I have a lot of thoughts about it. 804 00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,440 Speaker 1: It's unresolved. I have my own theories. There will be 805 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,600 Speaker 1: more to come on this. Yeah, I mean, you know, 806 00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,399 Speaker 1: I didn't mean to dismiss this whole thing as being 807 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:22,200 Speaker 1: like some sort of fantasy. Obviously there's information in this 808 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,680 Speaker 1: film and in this book that is meaningful. Um, but 809 00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:27,800 Speaker 1: you can draw your inclusions. But anybody like this is 810 00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,520 Speaker 1: actually really close to the story. Surely there's gonna be 811 00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,400 Speaker 1: some stuff that there's a ring of truth to, or 812 00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,200 Speaker 1: that he knows unequivocally is true. And I'd be interested 813 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,840 Speaker 1: to hear uh this perspective. I think that it's the 814 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,000 Speaker 1: people that are still alive that I think that can 815 00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:42,080 Speaker 1: really shed some light on which parts of this are real, 816 00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,480 Speaker 1: and that's yet to be determined. And this is also 817 00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:50,200 Speaker 1: uh TikTok situation because many of the people who would 818 00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,399 Speaker 1: have been in their prime and directly involved have passed on. 819 00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:58,759 Speaker 1: That's just how, you know, That's just how the body crumbles, right, 820 00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:04,120 Speaker 1: And yeah, it makes me. It makes me wonder if 821 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:08,040 Speaker 1: a deathbed confession has already occurred. It just kind of 822 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,399 Speaker 1: went unnoticed because the family and the surrounding people were 823 00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:16,360 Speaker 1: just like, okay, whatever, whatever, Grandpa, you're crazy or or 824 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:21,000 Speaker 1: even um, Grandpa, what are you think? Mmmmmmm no, no, no, 825 00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,000 Speaker 1: no, no no no. We don't talk about their grandpa. Grandpa. 826 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,799 Speaker 1: It's supposed to be America. You know the rules. Get 827 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,839 Speaker 1: the pillow. I'm just you know, that was dark. I apologize. 828 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,200 Speaker 1: We're gonna take it. Hey, Grandpa, We're gonna take a 829 00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,440 Speaker 1: quick trip over to the Giants Stadium. It's gonna be fine, Grandpa, 830 00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,080 Speaker 1: just come with us. The best view is from outside 831 00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,840 Speaker 1: the player. This is terrible, that field of dreams, right, 832 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:47,200 Speaker 1: So we at this point past the torch to you, 833 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:51,640 Speaker 1: fellow listeners, what do you think has this been solved 834 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,520 Speaker 1: unofficially the way that the former region in charge of 835 00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:59,200 Speaker 1: the investigation believes it has. Will The answer to Jimmy 836 00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:03,600 Speaker 1: Hoffa's disappear Urrance UH is widely suspected death ever come 837 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,760 Speaker 1: to light, why or why not? We want to hear 838 00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:09,920 Speaker 1: from you. You can find us on Facebook. You can 839 00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:11,920 Speaker 1: find us on Instagram. You can find us on Twitter. 840 00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:16,160 Speaker 1: Special shout out to our Facebook community page. Here's where 841 00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:18,680 Speaker 1: it gets crazy. We can't wait to swing by there 842 00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:22,600 Speaker 1: and see what you think about Jimmy Hoffa. Also, Hey, 843 00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,120 Speaker 1: you know, we're just gonna shoot our shot. If you 844 00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:30,680 Speaker 1: have information about the disappearance of hafa Um, send it, 845 00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,520 Speaker 1: send it to us. We won't wrat you out, we promise. Yeah, 846 00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,960 Speaker 1: ed cheering if you know what you're you know, relatives 847 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:38,920 Speaker 1: did like let us know. Yeah, that guy's got a 848 00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:41,880 Speaker 1: Shrek tattoo. I did not know that he has a couple. Actually, 849 00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:43,960 Speaker 1: I think it's a Donkey and the Shrek. He's really 850 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:45,759 Speaker 1: into Shrek? Is he the one who did I'm in 851 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,839 Speaker 1: love with your body? Is that about Jimmy Hoffa? That's good, 852 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,360 Speaker 1: that's good, Ben. I would prefer to believe it. But 853 00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:59,480 Speaker 1: the line I believe is now his bedsheets smell like you. Yeah, Jimmy. 854 00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,960 Speaker 1: I'm gonna look up the lyrics for this after we wrapped. 855 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,120 Speaker 1: In the meantime, Hey, what do you do if you 856 00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:09,520 Speaker 1: hate the social meats, but you still want to tell 857 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,040 Speaker 1: us what happened to Jimmy Hoffa. You give us a call. 858 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:16,040 Speaker 1: You call one eight three three s T d W 859 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,680 Speaker 1: y t K. Just give us a call. You'll hear 860 00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:21,920 Speaker 1: Ben's voice. There will be a beep and then just 861 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,560 Speaker 1: say I'm in love with the obody and I will 862 00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,160 Speaker 1: be like, whoa, it was about the Jimmy Hoffa episode, 863 00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,319 Speaker 1: and then leave your message. We'll get it um. If 864 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:32,239 Speaker 1: you don't want to do any of that stuff, but 865 00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:34,080 Speaker 1: you still want to contact us, you have an idea 866 00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:35,799 Speaker 1: for an episode, you want to tell us anything at all, 867 00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,160 Speaker 1: you can send us a good old fashioned email. We 868 00:52:38,200 --> 00:53:00,239 Speaker 1: are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff I Don't 869 00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:01,919 Speaker 1: want you to know, as a production of i heeart 870 00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:05,080 Speaker 1: Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, 871 00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:08,040 Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 872 00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:09,440 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows