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Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family Secrets, the secrets

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Speaker 2: that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others,

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Speaker 2: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. My guest today

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Speaker 2: is Read Harkness, a filmmaker based in Portland, Oregon. Reads

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Speaker 2: is a story about turning his camera on a family,

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Speaker 2: his family, specifically his younger half brother Sam, in a

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Speaker 2: lifelong attempt to understand what happened, what went wrong, and

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Speaker 2: how to make it right if such a thing as possible.

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Speaker 2: Read's documentary, twenty five years in the making, Sam Now,

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Speaker 2: is a powerful illustration of the way that art can

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Speaker 2: drive us to a deeper truth. Tell me about the

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Speaker 2: landscape of your childhood, just whatever the word landscape means

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Speaker 2: to you.

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Speaker 3: I grew up on the West Coast. My parents divorced

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Speaker 3: when I was a toddler, and my dad stayed in

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Speaker 3: Seattle and my mom went back to her family home

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Speaker 3: in Palo Alto, California. Most of my life I've lived

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Speaker 3: along I five. I currently live in Portland, Oregon, but

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Speaker 3: I'd say the West Coast and the Pacific Northwest is

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Speaker 3: very much home to me. In Seattle. When I was

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Speaker 3: about five, my dad remarried to Joyce, who came with

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Speaker 3: my stepbrother Peter. He's about a year older than me.

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Speaker 3: Not that long after they were married. They had two sons,

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Speaker 3: Jared and then Sam, So in the summertimes when I

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Speaker 3: was in Seattle, I had three brothers. It was a

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Speaker 3: house full of boys.

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Speaker 2: And when you were with your mom in Palo Alto,

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Speaker 2: were there any more kids in that household.

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Speaker 3: My mom remarried when I was about five, and a

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Speaker 3: parallel thing happened, except she had two daughters. So I

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Speaker 3: would go between one house majority women and one house

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Speaker 3: majority boys. It was a really interesting experience for me.

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Speaker 2: So when Jared and Sam were growing up, you would

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Speaker 2: see them mostly summers. Were there also sort of holidays

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Speaker 2: in between?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd be in Seattle every summer and pretty much

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Speaker 3: every Christmas vacation. But I did school with my mom

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Speaker 3: until I was a teenager and junior year. I did

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Speaker 3: some part of high school in Seattle, and then right

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Speaker 3: away after high school I moved up to Seattle.

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Speaker 2: When did you first pick up a camera?

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Speaker 3: M that's a gread question. What's funny is I remember

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Speaker 3: not having a camera, but setting up scenes with cardboard

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Speaker 3: and clay and creating these little sets. After watching those

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Speaker 3: Will Vinton claymation specials, I would try to recreate those things,

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Speaker 3: but I didn't have a camera, and I would just

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Speaker 3: like move them around, all the clay around, and I'd

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Speaker 3: like imagine them being animated. My first actual camera was

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Speaker 3: a PXL two thousand made by Fisher Price. A friend

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Speaker 3: borrowed it a week later and broke it. I think

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Speaker 3: things like that kind of cement the passion. Sometimes. My

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Speaker 3: grandmother had a VHS camera that she would let all

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Speaker 3: of us cousins and my brothers use, and that was

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Speaker 3: really the first like time where I felt like I

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Speaker 3: can experiment. So grandma had a VHS camera that she

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Speaker 3: kept in this old like floral suitcase, and I just

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Speaker 3: remember the feeling of like un zipping that suitcase, getting

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Speaker 3: the camera out, putting it huge VHS tape in and

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Speaker 3: recording something with my cousins and brothers.

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Speaker 2: And what was it like for you being the filmmaker,

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Speaker 2: being the director, if you will, Like, what did that

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Speaker 2: do for you as a kid, you know, and sort

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Speaker 2: of as a teenager when you began to really record

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Speaker 2: it seems like just at every opportunity, we know, record

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Speaker 2: as much of both life and sort of invention as

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Speaker 2: you possibly could.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I grew up being told no a lot, couldn't

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Speaker 3: keep focus, and therefore, you know, was put into special

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Speaker 3: ed classes and in a lot of ways maybe taught

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Speaker 3: down to But I would go home after school and

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Speaker 3: delve into projects, things like screen printing or airbrushing or

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Speaker 3: taking apart machinery. I loved the experience of diving in

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Speaker 3: and film all kinds of things. We shoot things like

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Speaker 3: squibs and pretend we were getting shot. We would you know,

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Speaker 3: create masks a lot of the time, like we like

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Speaker 3: we were like casting our faces and you know, we're

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Speaker 3: doing all these horror special effects. And then we just

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Speaker 3: do things that were just spontaneous, like boys running around

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Speaker 3: the neighborhood, raw energy stuff. And I think that that's

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Speaker 3: the stuff that I started to get really interested in.

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Speaker 3: And I think cameras and video became an interesting way

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Speaker 3: for me to explore and I got to a place

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Speaker 3: where I was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna try to

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Speaker 3: make my own films. I think before it was like

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Speaker 3: goofing around and playfulness. And I saw my brother Sam,

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Speaker 3: He's eight years younger than me, just sitting playing Nintendo

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Speaker 3: on the floor, and I thought, Okay, Sam's really doesn't

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Speaker 3: have anything planned for the day. I'm going to see

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Speaker 3: if he'll do this this movie with me. And I

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Speaker 3: had had this idea after watching Michael Aptead series. This

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Speaker 3: is in ninety seven, the Up series. It's like a

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Speaker 3: series is where they start, you know, seven year olds

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Speaker 3: and then fourteen year olds, and they go on every

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Speaker 3: seven years making a movie about the same group. And

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Speaker 3: I thought it would be interesting if I started filming

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Speaker 3: my brother as he's growing up, and I make this

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Speaker 3: movie called Sam one, and then pretty much every year

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Speaker 3: we make Sam two, Sam three, Sam four, Sam five.

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Speaker 3: But in that the first one, I'm not approaching it

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Speaker 3: like a documentary. I'm making a short film. It's a

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Speaker 3: concepted film about you know, Sam's he's sick at school,

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Speaker 3: he goes home, he's locked out of the house and

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Speaker 3: he's like staring in the window in horror as an

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Speaker 3: animated frog like eats his sack lunch that's on the table.

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Speaker 3: It's very much an art film.

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Speaker 2: So Sam really became your subject. How old were you

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Speaker 2: and how old was he?

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Speaker 3: Sam was around ten and I would have been seventeen

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Speaker 3: or eighteen.

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Speaker 2: Why Sam, it wasn't Jared, it wasn't your step brother,

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Speaker 2: It wasn't a kid from school.

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Speaker 3: I mean, for one thing, he was available. He was

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Speaker 3: accessible to me, Like he was just literally sitting there

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Speaker 3: on the floor playing video games. I was like, hey,

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Speaker 3: come with me, and he was like okay. And I

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Speaker 3: think that his personality is like he's down for an

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Speaker 3: Adventure's something about me being up there in the summertime,

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Speaker 3: you know, was always an exciting thing, I think for

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Speaker 3: my younger brothers. And we loved connecting, we loved wrestling,

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Speaker 3: we loved like being in the outdoors. And Sam was

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Speaker 3: someone who he was the kid that he would fall

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Speaker 3: down and he'd get right back up. And it was

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Speaker 3: something a quality that I didn't have. I would fall

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Speaker 3: down and stay down. I would feel it so hard

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Speaker 3: if something happened.

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Speaker 2: Do you mean that both physically and metaphorically.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel things really strongly. And Sam, he would

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Speaker 3: fall out of like a treehouse, hit the ground with

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Speaker 3: a thought, and then get right back up. Everybody's thinking,

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Speaker 3: we need to call an ambulance. He had this confidence

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Speaker 3: that it was really fun and also strange, and my cousin,

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Speaker 3: and I called him Candy Bones because he just like

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Speaker 3: he seemed like he could never get hurt. He was

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Speaker 3: just bounced right back up. So I was fascinated by

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Speaker 3: that because I'm not somebody that does that. I haven't

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Speaker 3: broken many bones or anything, but I definitely like have

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Speaker 3: been really hurt. And I think that if I fall

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Speaker 3: off that highev, I would There's no way that I

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Speaker 3: would have liked just got up like Sam did.

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Speaker 2: Contributing to this household of raw energy, as Reed calls it,

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Speaker 2: is Joyce and her effervescence. She's a big and joyful

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Speaker 2: presence in the boy's life. What they don't know at

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Speaker 2: the time is that her big presence will soon become

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Speaker 2: a big absence.

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Speaker 3: In my youth. Joyce was a really interesting step parent

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Speaker 3: to me. I remember her being the one that would

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Speaker 3: be like she would set out like a whole tray

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Speaker 3: full of water balloons and it's like, all right, guys,

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Speaker 3: water balloon fight, and then she'd be like throwing water

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Speaker 3: balloons out of the kitchen window outside at us too.

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Speaker 3: She had this quality that was like the super fun

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Speaker 3: mom who loved to, you know, get the party started.

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Speaker 3: She also was very creative and very like arts focused

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Speaker 3: and like to you know, sort of encourage us to

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Speaker 3: listen to music, you know, watch interesting content. She introduced

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Speaker 3: me to Pee Wee's Playhouse. I remember, and I remember

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Speaker 3: that being like, Okay, this is like kind of a

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Speaker 3: weird kids show, but it's really awesome. It was just

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Speaker 3: really interested in creativity and you know, playfulness, and she

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Speaker 3: really seemed to like bomb with us around playful energy.

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Speaker 3: She really brought a lot of that out. She inspired

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Speaker 3: a lot of that, like you know, keep going and

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Speaker 3: like she was really excited when I started making the

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Speaker 3: Sam movies. You thought it was like the coolest project.

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Speaker 3: I think that in hindsight, what's strange is that my

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Speaker 3: youth and my in my childhood home with my dad

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Speaker 3: and stepmom was normal. It was something normal to me.

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Speaker 3: Now when I look back and I sort of like

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Speaker 3: pick apart things, I can see patterns of things to come.

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Speaker 3: Like I could see, especially in hearing stories from my dad,

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Speaker 3: how he was in a lot of pain in that relationship,

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Speaker 3: and that there would be things that you know, we're

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Speaker 3: pretty manic where something really surprising would just happened out

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Speaker 3: of the blue, and you know, Joyce would would have

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Speaker 3: a really strong reaction and leave the house and as

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Speaker 3: kids who are really engaged with other kids like I'm

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Speaker 3: just I'm connecting more with my brothers than I am

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Speaker 3: with with my parents. I wasn't really that aware of it.

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Speaker 2: Read and Sam continue to make their movies together. To

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Speaker 2: watch their movies is to see the sheer joy of

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Speaker 2: two brothers creating stories together creatively on fire. They both

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Speaker 2: love it, but their regular filmmaking is disrupted in the

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Speaker 2: fall of nineteen ninety nine when Reid moves to Portland

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Speaker 2: for an animation job. Sam still occasionally comes to visit

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Speaker 2: and stay with his older brother so that they can

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Speaker 2: continue making their films. But then a different kind of

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Speaker 2: disruption happens, a much bigger one. When Sam is thirteen,

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Speaker 2: his mother reads stepmother, Joyce, disappears. It's the year two

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Speaker 2: thousand and Reid doesn't have the details, but he knows

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Speaker 2: something has happened. He hears from family members bits and

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Speaker 2: pieces of where they think might have gone and if

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Speaker 2: or when they think she's coming back. When Sam comes

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Speaker 2: out to Portland to film and spend time with Reid,

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Speaker 2: they don't talk about the fact that Joyce has vanished,

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Speaker 2: and nobody has heard from her.

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Speaker 3: It had become this taboo in our family where nobody

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Speaker 3: wanted to bring it up with Sam and Jared. They

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Speaker 3: had a discomfort with the unknown. And then my dad

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Speaker 3: was in a place where he really didn't want to

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Speaker 3: pursue contact with her, so he wasn't encouraging conversation around it.

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Speaker 3: And then the extended family, like my grandmother, my aunt Cindy,

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Speaker 3: there was like these like ripples of like different people

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Speaker 3: in the family are really harboring the emotion and anger

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Speaker 3: of this and not knowing what to do. Cindy told

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Speaker 3: me later that she kind of wanted to adopt Sam

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Speaker 3: and Jared during those years, my aunt and it was

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Speaker 3: really heartbreaking because our family is very tight knit, not

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Speaker 3: just a nuclear family, but like the whole Harkness family,

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Speaker 3: which is like a really big group of aunts and

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Speaker 3: uncles and cousins, and we all congregate at my grandmother's

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Speaker 3: house regularly. Were all It just seemed like the ideal

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Speaker 3: support system regarding family, the whole It takes a village,

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Speaker 3: you know. That was my family. They were like we

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Speaker 3: were always together, we were always doing things. There was

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Speaker 3: like open door policy at Grandma's. There was always cookies.

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Speaker 3: There was always food in the fridge. The support system

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Speaker 3: was there, it just was failing to operate around the

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Speaker 3: taboo of you know, Joyce is gone, what do we do?

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Speaker 2: And do you think that that was because the larger

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Speaker 2: net of the family, they were taking their cues from

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Speaker 2: your father, and he really didn't want to talk about it,

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Speaker 2: so then nobody talked about it. Like the silence became

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Speaker 2: kind of contagious.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say the silence became contagious. I think that.

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Speaker 3: But there's a thing with men and boys not talking

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Speaker 3: about difficult stuff generally, and I think in the Pacific

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Speaker 3: Northwest it's like even more amplified. And then I think

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Speaker 3: that you know, this is this is a family that's

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Speaker 3: made up mostly of educators, even very specifically childhood educators.

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Speaker 3: My dad is was a first grade teacher for thirty years,

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Speaker 3: and my grandmother worked like her whole career in early

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Speaker 3: childhood education, you know, learning about like the most pioneering methods,

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Speaker 3: and these are really cool aspects that like really do

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Speaker 3: help shape like who we are, these kind of free

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Speaker 3: range kids that are like able to lean into adventuresome

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Speaker 3: spirit and a lot of creative play. But I think

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Speaker 3: something that comes with being in a classroom and being

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Speaker 3: an educator and being that kind of observer to things

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Speaker 3: that might happen. And I think I'm thinking of my

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Speaker 3: dad here, Like I remember helping out in his classroom,

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Speaker 3: so like I remember the challenge that he would face

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Speaker 3: every day and how you know, just keeping order, keeping things,

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Speaker 3: keeping things moving, keeping a smile on his face. I'm

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Speaker 3: sure that this had had an impact. And I'm sure

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Speaker 3: that there was many things. Many factors in his view

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Speaker 3: were things that you just you didn't address, you didn't

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Speaker 3: talk about, but you knew. So I think that he

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Speaker 3: may have become conditioned to just keeping things going and

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Speaker 3: being stable, yet not addressing some of the elephants in

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Speaker 3: the room directly.

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Speaker 2: And it seems like both Sam and Jared both had

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Speaker 2: very different responses to Joyce's disappearing. Jared, he wears it

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Speaker 2: all kind of outwardly. He stops going to school. He's

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Speaker 2: completely signaling you know, I am not okay. He shows it,

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Speaker 2: whereas Sam bottles it up and nothing seems like it's

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Speaker 2: really affecting him. And he has this great laugh and

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Speaker 2: he just is always laughing it off in a way

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Speaker 2: and performing and so they have these two really different

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Speaker 2: ways of coping during those years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is the high dive. You know, Sam

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Speaker 3: fell off the high dive in real life, as you know,

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Speaker 3: an eight year old and landed on the on the

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Speaker 3: cement and walked away. And he did the same thing

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Speaker 3: emotionally when Joyce left, he sprung back. I think that

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Speaker 3: also there's a factor here where, you know, seeing Jared

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Speaker 3: being so depressed, just crumpled in a ball on the floor,

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Speaker 3: not going to school at all. I think he was

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Speaker 3: like he cut class for like sixty days or something ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: He was like figuring out some way, Well, my dad

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Speaker 3: was at work to you know, make it seem like

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Speaker 3: he was at school. And I think Sam saw that

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Speaker 3: and wanted to take the high road. What I saw

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Speaker 3: was like he started associating with like, you know, the

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Speaker 3: honorall kids, even though he wasn't Jared was the academic.

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Speaker 3: Sam was definitely not the a student, and he started

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Speaker 3: getting into school sports too. He was into wrestling and

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Speaker 3: then he found the sport of ultimate frisbee, which ultimately

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Speaker 3: became like his his big life passion and getting in

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Speaker 3: with those groups, you know, those social groups where there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of like camaraderie and like encouragement. I think

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Speaker 3: that he was able to sort of ride this wave

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Speaker 3: of like we can power through. I can like be

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Speaker 3: physically strong, I can be mentally stronger than this.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets.

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Speaker 2: Nearly three years past was no word from Joyce. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: she sends packages though boxes full of random stuff. There's

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Speaker 2: never a note or a letter. It all feels so

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Speaker 2: impersonal that the boys speculate that the packages might not

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Speaker 2: even be from her. The boxes have her name on them,

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Speaker 2: but no return address, a clear indication that she does

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Speaker 2: not want to be found. One year, during Christmas, one

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Speaker 2: such box arrives. This time it contains homemade fudge.

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Speaker 3: The setting is It's Christmas, I'm visiting my family in Seattle.

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Speaker 3: And the year before Sam and Jared and I on

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Speaker 3: Christmas Day went up to the mountains and went sledding

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Speaker 3: and had like one of my favorite days ever. The

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Speaker 3: ski slopes were closed, and so we just like hyped

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Speaker 3: up the ski slopes and were just like sledding down

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Speaker 3: for what felt like miles. We had such a good

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Speaker 3: time that we wanted to recreate that the next year

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Speaker 3: and we had talked about this. Sam was so excited.

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Speaker 3: Jared was immovable. He was just like on the floor.

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Speaker 3: He's just like no, no, no, no, like just would

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Speaker 3: not come with us. And we imagine both of these

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Speaker 3: like really excited brothers just trying to like drag him,

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Speaker 3: pull him, encourage him, you know remember last year all that,

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Speaker 3: and he's not able to won't. So it's just me

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Speaker 3: and Sam. Sam offered me some fudge and I said

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Speaker 3: who made the fudge? And he's like Mom. And I

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Speaker 3: was like, who's mom? And he's like mom, And I

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Speaker 3: was like really, I was in such disbelief that that

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Speaker 3: could be possible. So that's the same day that we

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Speaker 3: go up sledding and it's just me and Sam and

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Speaker 3: we're on this mountain. We're hiking up this old logging

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Speaker 3: road and you know, it's snowing, and we've got these

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Speaker 3: two sleds and we as we're hiking where we're imagining it,

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Speaker 3: we're just gonna have the longest sled run ever. We're

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Speaker 3: gonna like hike up as long as we can and

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Speaker 3: then just sled all the way down the mountain, so

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Speaker 3: it would be like a couple miles maybe, and we

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Speaker 3: get to the point where it's like the sun setting,

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Speaker 3: and we're like, okay, now we need to turn around,

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Speaker 3: and we set our sleds down and we're like, let's race,

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Speaker 3: and we're like one, two, three, go, and we realized

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Speaker 3: that it's not steep enough to actually sled, So then

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Speaker 3: we're walking back with a totally different energy. Instead of

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Speaker 3: this idea that we're gonna hike all the way up

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Speaker 3: to have a fun ride down, we're now just walking down.

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Speaker 3: And on this walk we start talking about the next

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Speaker 3: film we're gonna make. It would be Sam six, and

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Speaker 3: Sam has these ideas. He's got these ideas about this

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Speaker 3: Apple Ganger alter identity of his called the Blue Panther,

334
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 3: who's just this goofy mock superhero who wears a wrestling

335
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Speaker 3: mask and a too small wet suit. And he's telling

336
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Speaker 3: me about how the Blue Panther is going to battle

337
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,760
Speaker 3: twin robots and his girlfriend at the time is a

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Speaker 3: twin and so she's going to play this twin character,

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Speaker 3: and then the twins are going to divide into more twins,

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Speaker 3: so there'll be like four twins fighting the Blue Panther.

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Speaker 3: And I'm thinking about this this conflict I'm thinking about

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Speaker 3: this like idea of Sam and his alter ego and

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Speaker 3: how he really wants to take on this, like I'm

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Speaker 3: going to take on like four people, you know, And

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Speaker 3: I'm just thinking about like how we've done a lot

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Speaker 3: of really childish filmmaking. I love it. I love all

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Speaker 3: the youthful filmmaking that we do. But I'm at a point,

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Speaker 3: you know, where I'm kind of like, I want to

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Speaker 3: do something serious. And so I just turned to him

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Speaker 3: and I say, Sam, how about the blue panther his mom?

351
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Speaker 3: And then he stopped talking and it was quiet and

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Speaker 3: it's just footsteps in the snow, and then he comes

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Speaker 3: back with yeah, And I was like really, and he's

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Speaker 3: like yeah. We drive home and we talk about it

355
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Speaker 3: a little more. I kind of put it away a

356
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Speaker 3: little bit. It really felt like that was sort of

357
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Speaker 3: the big taboo. It really felt like that might have

358
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Speaker 3: really hurt Sam for me to say that, But he

359
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 3: presented something different or unexpected, which was that he kind

360
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Speaker 3: of wanted he wanted to engage with me around it,

361
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Speaker 3: and so we continue to have conversations about what that

362
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Speaker 3: would be like, and he wanted to go at his

363
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 3: midwinter break, which was in February, so it's like two

364
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 3: months away. He wanted to go and go in a

365
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Speaker 3: road trip and try to try to find her, and

366
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Speaker 3: I'm thinking that sounds really crazy, but I'm also thinking, hey,

367
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Speaker 3: wants to go on a road trip with me, and

368
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Speaker 3: this is kind of like also our dream, and this

369
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Speaker 3: is also something that we a place where we thrive

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Speaker 3: and even if nothing happens, you know, it might be

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Speaker 3: a really good experience. I'm somebody who's like, you know,

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Speaker 3: read a lot of like Joseph Campbell and been really

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Speaker 3: interested in things like Rites of Passage, and I'm thinking

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Speaker 3: about our relationship and I'm thinking about, you know how

375
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Speaker 3: I always wanted a big brother, and I'm thinking, hey,

376
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Speaker 3: this could be really cool. It's like I become a detective.

377
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,199
Speaker 3: I kind of put down my filmmaker hat, like I

378
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 3: was like, Okay, this is not really going to be

379
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,120
Speaker 3: the blue Panther finds his mom. I have to get

380
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Speaker 3: some pieces together. I have to actually figure out where

381
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Speaker 3: we're going on this road trip. And that turns out

382
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 3: to be a big challenge. I talk to like everybody

383
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Speaker 3: I can find that new joice, and everybody's got different ideas.

384
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Speaker 3: It's like, oh, maybe she's in Texas, maybe she's in California,

385
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 3: she's a seminar somewhere. So there's like no concrete evidence,

386
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 3: and like the person who seems to have like the

387
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 3: most intel is my stepbrother Peter. Seems like he had

388
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 3: done some research and he had found this like professor

389
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 3: done in southern California who might have been in contact

390
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 3: with her. But then he's like reluctant to give me

391
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 3: his name, and I like, you know, I'm doing all

392
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Speaker 3: these searches, and then finally we get this name of

393
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 3: this professor and a really basic plan, because we don't

394
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 3: have any other leads to where anyone else that knows

395
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 3: her is. We're gonna drive down I five to southern

396
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 3: California and we're gonna meet this professor on his office

397
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,719
Speaker 3: hours which are posted online, and just like approach him

398
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Speaker 3: in person. This is like I didn't even have a

399
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Speaker 3: cell phone. I'm just gonna walk in there and hopefully

400
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 3: he'll just like see us and be like I can't

401
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 3: turn you away and I'll help you. And along the way, Chwis'

402
00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 3: family lives in Medford, Oregon, so we'll we'll talk to

403
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 3: them and see if they've heard from her.

404
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a particularly riveting part of your film where

405
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 2: you you do meet with Joyce's adoptive mother and brother

406
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 2: and sister, and it's such a stark contrast to the

407
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 2: family scenes that we see of your family. It's like

408
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,159
Speaker 2: it's like it's like in a different key, it's in

409
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 2: a different palette.

410
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Speaker 3: The Taylor family. Yeah, you know, I think of our

411
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 3: the Harkness family is being very connected, very interested in play,

412
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 3: very much like you know, there's kind of a lot

413
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 3: of like laughter and smiling and kind of kind of

414
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 3: an encouraging vibe. I couldn't help but feel that we

415
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 3: talk about the sort of family secret part of like okay,

416
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 3: nobody really wants to talk about Joyce leaving, But then

417
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 3: meeting and talking to the Taylor family, they were so

418
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 3: much more closed off. I mean they were they were like,

419
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 3: they're honest, they're forthcoming. But her mom said when she

420
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 3: left her kids, I just wiped her out of my life.

421
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 3: When Joyce made the decision to abandon Sam and Jared,

422
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 3: I abandon her basically, And that's something that has really

423
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 3: hard to reconcile. That kind of attitude.

424
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Speaker 2: Read and Sam make it down to southern California to

425
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 2: meet this mysterious professor with the camera on. Of course,

426
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,479
Speaker 2: Sam shows up at the university during the professor's office hours,

427
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 2: but when they arrive, they learn that the professor is

428
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 2: on an extended and semi permanent leave of absence. This

429
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 2: had been their only lead. The door cracked open, now

430
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 2: seems like it is slammed shut. It seems like this

431
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 2: might be the end of the road, but they stay

432
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: in the area and try other tactics. They post missing

433
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 2: Mom flyers. At one point, Sam uses a paper megaphone

434
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 2: to shout into the beautiful hills of California, mother, where

435
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 2: are you mother? The stakes are high, but Read and

436
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 2: Sam possess that harkness sense of play that their filmmaking

437
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 2: has always allowed them. They are full of light and energy.

438
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 2: The brothers are stymied, but undaunted. They're not ready to

439
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 2: give up, not yet. They returned to a list they'd

440
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 2: made of other phone numbers linked to the professor's name.

441
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 2: There's one number on the list they haven't tried. Sam

442
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: calls it, and there's a recording stating that the number

443
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 2: has been disconnected, but a new number is provided on

444
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 2: the recording. Sam calls that new number and Joyce answers

445
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 2: the phone.

446
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 3: So that was so unbelievable. I'm still like, how did

447
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 3: that happen?

448
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 2: Was there some part of you that thought, this is

449
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 2: never going to happen, but it's going to be the journey.

450
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 2: We're going to be on our hero's journey, and the

451
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 2: journey is the destination. The journey is what matters. And

452
00:27:58,560 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 2: then you actually do find her.

453
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that I had two voices. One it

454
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 3: was like, hey, this will like, no matter what happens,

455
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 3: this will be a beneficial experience.

456
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: You know.

457
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 3: What I was thinking was like I kept holding the

458
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 3: idea of like no expectations, like reduce my expectations because

459
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 3: I have no idea what's going to happen. I don't

460
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 3: know if Sam's going to break down, you know, at

461
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 3: like day one or day two or day five, and

462
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 3: you know, it really felt like when we get there

463
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 3: and the professor's on a leave, he's just like, you know,

464
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 3: his offices has turned over someone else. Actually I started

465
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 3: to break down. I started to be the one that

466
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 3: was like losing it a bit and just like I

467
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 3: don't know what to do now. And it was Sam

468
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 3: who kind of held me up. And was like, come on,

469
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 3: let's go through a frisbee and we go to the

470
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 3: beach and we started tossing the frisbee and you know,

471
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 3: while we're doing that, I'm starting to regulate a little

472
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 3: bit and get to this place of like, oh, okay,

473
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 3: wait a minute. We have this notebook full of numbers

474
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 3: that you know, we could just start calling numbers, and

475
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 3: Joyce answers the phone. And what happens next is so

476
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 3: amazing because Sam doesn't ask her questions. He just fills

477
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 3: her in on everything that's happened over the last three

478
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 3: years in his life. Jared and I got girlfriends, I

479
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 3: went to Japan, I started playing ultimate frisbee, Like he

480
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 3: just wants to let her know what's been going on

481
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 3: in his life. And then she invites us to come

482
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 3: see her. She's not in southern California. She's actually in

483
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 3: southern Oregon, and we immediately start driving up there, and

484
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 3: this is like back to the energy of like, oh

485
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 3: my gosh, this is the most exciting thing. I can't

486
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 3: believe this's happening, like, but we're also nervous, and I

487
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 3: remember asking Sam multiple times, like what are you going

488
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 3: to say? What's gonna happen, and he's just like it's

489
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 3: gonna be cool. It's like, we just got to go.

490
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 3: He was so excited. And we get there and knock

491
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 3: on the door and she answers and welcomes us in,

492
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 3: and the professor's there with her. They're in our relationship,

493
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 3: and it was like as if nothing had happened. She

494
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 3: had like Sam's favorite sushi ready to go. She had

495
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 3: like these sodas. I think it was like blue Sky

496
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 3: sodas that she always had stocked in the fridge at

497
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 3: her in Seattle, and it was like, oh, yeah, come over.

498
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 3: It was like as if three years hadn't passed, and

499
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 3: instead it was just, hey, I started in a relationship

500
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 3: and I'm I'm down here now and like come on

501
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 3: down anytime you're ready. It was like that. It was like, Okay,

502
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 3: there was excitement, and there was like pure joy of reconnection,

503
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 3: and then there wasn't. There wasn't anything further until we

504
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 3: go to this coffee shop nearby her house and she

505
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 3: just breaks down mostly to me why she left, in

506
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 3: a kind of a really fast rant that I've watched

507
00:30:54,520 --> 00:31:00,479
Speaker 3: so many times, and it's really emotionally charged and and

508
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 3: complex and cutting and confusing and in the most clear way,

509
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 3: like true to her thought process. It's like I had

510
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 3: to escape the control of everybody. I do escape control.

511
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 2: The thing that really struck me during that time in

512
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 2: the coffee shop was that she says with so much

513
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 2: like with no charge, seemingly certainly no sense of apology.

514
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 2: She says, I know I'm going to go down in

515
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 2: history as the woman who broke up whole bunch of rules,

516
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 2: But I'm happy. I had to save myself. And she

517
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: repeats a number of times that she's happy, and I

518
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 2: don't get the sense that, at least there that she's

519
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 2: overly concerned about the pain that she's inflicted.

520
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is one of the hardest things to understand

521
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 3: in this story. I think that she felt like she

522
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 3: was losing her mind and that she was going to

523
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 3: start acting out in ways that would potentially be more

524
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 3: hurtful than if she if she stayed. But you know

525
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 3: this part of like, I had to get out, I

526
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 3: had to go, and I walked through a portal and

527
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 3: now I'm happy. Oof. It's so that stuff just like

528
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 3: hit me in the weirdest way. I still can't really

529
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 3: wrap my head around. I mean, because I have a

530
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 3: mom who is very much connected and is like the

531
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 3: kind of mom where it's like I could count on

532
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 3: her pretty much always be there, Like she would be

533
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 3: there if I was in the hospital tomorrow, she would

534
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 3: be calling or be there. And to have this really

535
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 3: different perspective of like, nope, I have to take care

536
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 3: of myself and be gone and I'm happy without the

537
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 3: part of just saying like and I'm sorry that I

538
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 3: hurt you, and I take accountability for any pain or trauma.

539
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 3: It just was so hard. And here I am, too,

540
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 3: in this place where it's like I've basically made this

541
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 3: deal with Sam to help him find his mom my stepmom,

542
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 3: and then we get to these places where it's like

543
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 3: emotionally really confusing for me, and I'm in this like

544
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 3: place of I'm helping Sam, and I can't burn bridges.

545
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 3: I have to sort of like follow his lead.

546
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 2: We'll be right back. Overall, for Sam, reuniting with Joyce

547
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 2: is a positive experience. Finding Joyce is a big deal,

548
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 2: and when the brothers get back home, they tell the

549
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 2: whole extended family about their discovery. The family is gathered

550
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: for someone's birthday and when Sam and reads share this

551
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 2: monumental news. The tone of the room doesn't change as

552
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 2: much as they expect it might. Nobody seems terribly impressed

553
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 2: or surprised by this news. Nobody continues to talk about it.

554
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 2: Do they not realize the gravity of what's happened? Do

555
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 2: they not care? Everyone is just going about their evening,

556
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 2: laughing and having a good time. At this point, Reid

557
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 2: is moved to do something quite out of character. He

558
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 2: comes out from behind the camera, He hands his camera

559
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 2: to a relative, asks them to keep filming, and confronts

560
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: his family. He's clearly uncomfortably full of emotion. What Sam

561
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 2: did was so incredibly brave, and you're not talking about it?

562
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,879
Speaker 2: Why aren't we talking about it?

563
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like this reveal moment where I've played this

564
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,240
Speaker 3: role of I'm recording what's going on, I'm in taking

565
00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 3: I'm observing everything, and I'm definitely I'm a sensitive, emotional

566
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 3: human who's taking it all in and I'm not exposing

567
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 3: that in the filming because I want to allow for

568
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 3: other people's stories and opinions and emotions to matter. And

569
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 3: also when I'm trying to follow the story of Sam,

570
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 3: who is emotionally disconnected like he struggles with connecting with

571
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 3: his emotions, and I wanted to let that lead, let

572
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 3: that kind of hero be When it's so easy to

573
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,399
Speaker 3: connect to somebody that has like strong emotions, I wanted

574
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 3: to let that more nuanced thing live and breathe and

575
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,280
Speaker 3: be focused on because it happens for a lot of people.

576
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 3: You know, it's very real for a lot of people

577
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 3: to suppress their emotions. Anyway, We've just come back from

578
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 3: finding Joye and it's too much for me, and the

579
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 3: elephant in the room is too big. And I step

580
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,879
Speaker 3: up on the stage of the family room and I

581
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 3: say something, and I'm trembling and I'm not sure what

582
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 3: I'm doing. It's one of the most uncomfortable moments in

583
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 3: my life. And I and I try to convey the

584
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 3: power of what's happened, and it's really messing with the

585
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 3: energy of the room, where everyone wants to keep things light,

586
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 3: everyone wants to just kind of laugh and like, hey,

587
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 3: let's not get awkward. But I realized that, you know that,

588
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 3: like families are really uncomfortable addressing discomfort, Like families will

589
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 3: avoid it all costs, addressing these kinds of discomforts. And

590
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 3: I see that as a major oversight in family support

591
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,879
Speaker 3: just in general, like, as we raise our kids, as

592
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 3: we are family to each other, how is it that

593
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 3: we can't Maybe some families do this totally well. Anyway,

594
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 3: my family wasn't operating that way, and it was a

595
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 3: really uncomfortable experience for me to just be like, you guys,

596
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 3: you guys, can you see this? You know? And I

597
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 3: don't know, you know, even with me doing that, Like

598
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 3: what the power of that was? I just know that

599
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 3: I was, I was speaking from I was naming the

600
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 3: skeleton in the closet. I was definitely like pointing at

601
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 3: it when everybody wanted to turn away.

602
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 2: But the boys don't turn away from the situation or

603
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: from Joyce. They continue to be in touch. She gets

604
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 2: in touch with Jared too, and spends time with them both.

605
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 2: Jared even moves in with her for a while. On

606
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 2: the surface, things seem to be going really well. Having

607
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 2: Joyce back in their lives is great for Sam, until

608
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 2: it isn't. Some years later, the abandonment, the rejection, the secrecy,

609
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: the childhood loss, it all catches up with him. Sam's

610
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,720
Speaker 2: in his late twenties and he's falling apart. He's afraid

611
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 2: of relationships. He's afraid of abandoning others, and he starts

612
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 2: to really wreck him with how destructive this experience has

613
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 2: been for him. He feels he might be repeating some

614
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,720
Speaker 2: of the patterns his mother has instilled in him, hurting

615
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:06,240
Speaker 2: others without remorse. He writes Joyce a letter to convey

616
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 2: this turmoil.

617
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 3: In that letter, he says something about how he misses

618
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 3: the mom he had when he was eleven, and he

619
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 3: asks her if she could be more present in his

620
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 3: life because in this time, even though he's found her,

621
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 3: you know, and it's been over a decade of them

622
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,800
Speaker 3: being reconnected, he doesn't see her making much of an effort.

623
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 3: He's the one that always has to contact her and

624
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,919
Speaker 3: plan any visits with her, and she never was coming

625
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 3: up to Seattle to visit Jared, Sam and Peter live

626
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 3: in Seattle and Joyce's in southern Oregon, and he wanted

627
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 3: her to, you know, just come up and spend time

628
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: with the three of them, and that hadn't happened since

629
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 3: the reconnection. So she comes up to do that. Sam,

630
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 3: Joyce and I have breakfast together and everything's just kind

631
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 3: of normal. It's like we're just chit chatting and things

632
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 3: seem pretty good. She's in good spirits. Sam's in a

633
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 3: good mood. It's nice. And then my dad calls Sam

634
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 3: and Sam immediately like hangs up the phone like doesn't

635
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 3: doesn't answer, and Joyce is like, who is that and

636
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 3: Sam's like it was Dad, and then she's like why

637
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 3: didn't you answer? And then he's like, well, you know,

638
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 3: we're like having breakfast, and she's like he should have answered,

639
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 3: and then she's like, let's go see him, and so

640
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 3: we get in the car and head over to my

641
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 3: dad's house. So we just head over and we get

642
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 3: there and knock on the door and my dad's in

643
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 3: his pjs and he doesn't recognize Joyce and Joyce thinks

644
00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 3: it's hysterical and we go in and it's so awkward.

645
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 3: I feel like we just ambushed my dad on like

646
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 3: Jackass the movie. And we go in and my dad

647
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 3: is makes the connection. He's like, oh my gosh, it's

648
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 3: Joyce and he's just like whoa, okay, hold on, let

649
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 3: me get dressed. And he comes back out and he's

650
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 3: really uncomfortable. Sam's like, this is getting really weird, and

651
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 3: then he starts to talk to Joyce. I'm filming too.

652
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 3: That makes things weird, right, So there's the camera, there's

653
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 3: my dad hasn't seen Joyce in twelve years. He's caught

654
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 3: off guard, and then they have a conversation and it's like, well,

655
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 3: brought you here, and she's just like I just decided

656
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 3: to come up and it just like and all this

657
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 3: so I was like her story is like, oh, just

658
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 3: any other you know, like I haven't seen you in

659
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 3: twelve years, but like, oh, you know, just decided to

660
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 3: drop by. And she's so giddy and like thinks it's

661
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 3: like really funny and fun and my dad's like on edge.

662
00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 3: And then he calls his mom, mother Doris, who lives

663
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 3: a few blocks away, and is like, Joyce is here,

664
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 3: and so then we go over to her house and

665
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 3: then it's like a bigger group and my grandmother's reaction

666
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 3: to seeing Joyce is like total embrace. She gives her

667
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 3: like a minute long hug and they're both crying and she's,

668
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 3: you know, the ultimate grandma. She just welcomes us all in,

669
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 3: is like let me put on some tea, and like

670
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 3: everyone's gathered in the family room and it's just this

671
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 3: sort of like the mood changes to like this kind

672
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 3: of like happy gathering all of a sudden, and then

673
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:43,280
Speaker 3: something really bizarre happens, which is she sort of draws

674
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 3: Joyce into this conversation about narcissism, and she happens to

675
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:58,839
Speaker 3: have this book out about narcissism, and she's like, that's

676
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 3: not where you're at, right, is like, yep, that's me.

677
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 3: And she like defines in her own words how this

678
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 3: pattern that she has of getting whipped up into a

679
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 3: tailspin and either hurting herself or other people.

680
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,839
Speaker 2: Why did your grandmother have the book on narcissism out?

681
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,280
Speaker 3: That's a really good question. She had the book out

682
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 3: to give to another family member who was dealing with

683
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:29,280
Speaker 3: somebody who had narcissistic patterns, and then mentioned it. Somehow

684
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 3: it came up maybe she had been thinking about this

685
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 3: regarding Joyce, but she brought it up in a really friendly,

686
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 3: kind curious way, and Joyce's response to it was like, yep,

687
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 3: that's me. Peter ends up coming over it to my

688
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,760
Speaker 3: grandma's house too, and then it's like a bigger group.

689
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 3: Some family members are called and decline coming. It's too

690
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 3: much for them.

691
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 2: And Joyce seems so surprised by that. There's these really

692
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 2: interesting interactions, like you know, Joyce at one point says

693
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 2: to your mother, well, it did occur to us for

694
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 2: a minute that you'd be surprised, and your father says,

695
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 2: that's an understatement. And he also there's this moment where

696
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,439
Speaker 2: he actually like sort of slaps himself on the cheek

697
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 2: a couple of times, like you know, am I in

698
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 2: a fiction here? Like what is happening in this house?

699
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 2: And it's like that's the voice of reason in that moment, right,

700
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 2: which is like, this is wild. He hasn't seen his

701
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,919
Speaker 2: ex wife in decades since one day she just walked out,

702
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 2: and now she's come back and she's laughing and everybody's laughing.

703
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's what is that I'm trying

704
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 3: to put my finger on this quality of how Joyce

705
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 3: is in that scene, and it feels to me like

706
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 3: this sort of clown, Like she's playing the role of

707
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 3: clown in order to make things light, like maybe there

708
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 3: will be some levity if I'm kind of fun and

709
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 3: laughing and that that'll take off some of the seriousness

710
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,879
Speaker 3: and the pressure and the discomfort of this whole thing,

711
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 3: and maybe it backfires and it's like super unreal and

712
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 3: super ungrounding, and my dad is just like, what is

713
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 3: going on? He does slap his face and he's like,

714
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 3: is this some kind of fiction that's going on here?

715
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:23,760
Speaker 3: And Sam is having the same look on his face,

716
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 3: And I'm like, am I, you know, like I'm not

717
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 3: saying it much because I'm recording, but I'm like, am

718
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 3: I contributing to this by having a camera? And you know,

719
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 3: it definitely chills out at Grandma's house, But in my

720
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 3: dad's house it is just a very very strange, like

721
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 3: a practical joke feeling. Twelve years later, surprise.

722
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 2: This flippant tone is all too familiar to Read. The

723
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 2: temperature in the room is so similar to how it

724
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 2: had been when Read and Sam first told their family

725
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:03,280
Speaker 2: about finding Joyce. Things are there's laughter. The family defaults

726
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,760
Speaker 2: to levity for better or worse. At least this time,

727
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 2: the elephant in the room is in fact in the room.

728
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 2: Joyce is right there with them in person, and it's

729
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,800
Speaker 2: harder to stay cavalier, as evidenced by their grandma bringing

730
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 2: up the book on narcissism and their dad slapping himself

731
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,399
Speaker 2: on the cheek. The levity, it seems, has worn sin

732
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 2: as a coping mechanism.

733
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, the elephant herself is in the room, and you

734
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 3: really can see sort of like a little more the

735
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,839
Speaker 3: dynamic between Joyce and my dad. And then right after that,

736
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 3: I'm in the car driving with my grandmother and my

737
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 3: dad and I'm asking my grandmother what was that like

738
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 3: for you to see Joyce after all these years, And

739
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 3: she's like, it was really good. And at the same time,

740
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 3: my dad he thinks I'm asking him the question, and

741
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 3: he's speaking over her and saying it was freakish, for

742
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 3: it was freakish, And my grandmother continues and she's like,

743
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,399
Speaker 3: it was just really good to connect with her after

744
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 3: all these years, and there's this quality to it where

745
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 3: it's like my grandmother's doing this radical acceptance thing where

746
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 3: she's just like, I'm gonna embrace Joyce. I know that

747
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 3: this is something that is like, has been a real

748
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 3: pain in our family, and I'm just gonna embrace her.

749
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 3: And then my dad is feeling pain and my grandmother

750
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 3: is failing to connect with his pain and putting Joyce first,

751
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 3: saying that like, I think she needs this. I think

752
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 3: that she needs this connection with me. And I think

753
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 3: about this and I'm thinking like my grandmother's hip. She's

754
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 3: like done all these years of early childhood experience. She

755
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 3: really knows what's going on, and she's like, oh my gosh, Joyce, narcissism, abandonment, adoption.

756
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 3: She really hasn't had like warm, connective parental figures. However,

757
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 3: I am that for her a little bit, and I

758
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 3: can be that and I will play that role now.

759
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 3: At the same time, in the same beat, she's failing

760
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 3: to connect with her son over this pain, and my

761
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 3: dad he's somebody who has felt abused by Joyce in

762
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 3: their marriage. I feel for the whole situation. It's like,

763
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 3: here's grandmother trying to heal some ancient wound with Joyce,

764
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 3: trying to like, you know, provide this maternal role to her.

765
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 3: Joyce didn't feel like her adoptive parents really loved her.

766
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 3: She was put up for adoption at eighteen months by

767
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,800
Speaker 3: her mother never reconnected with her. And then here's Grandma Dorris,

768
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,320
Speaker 3: who has been a mother role to her mother in

769
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 3: law role to her, saying like I accept you, I

770
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:56,280
Speaker 3: welcome you back in. Yet my dad is very distraught

771
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 3: and she's failing to see that there in the car.

772
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 3: This is a further level of elephant in the room.

773
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 3: I go with Sam later that night, he's making his

774
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 3: Halloween costume. I've been talking about clowns and all this.

775
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 3: You know, Joyce might be putting on a little bit

776
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 3: of a show for Halloween, but I don't know. And

777
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 3: I asked Sam how that was, and he's like, the

778
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 3: jury's out. I'm going to put off thinking about it.

779
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 3: That was too much for me. It definitely wasn't what

780
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 3: I expected. I never expected Joyce to like be at

781
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:35,280
Speaker 3: Grandma's house ever again. So he's just he's just really confused,

782
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:37,399
Speaker 3: and this is another level of kind of waking up.

783
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 3: I think for Sam. I think that there's many levels

784
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 3: of fantasy involved in this story. You know, some are like, hey,

785
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 3: I'm going to be the Blue Panton. I'm going to

786
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 3: like you know, I'm going to go and like find

787
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 3: my mom, you know. And then there's levels of like

788
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 3: I can tolerate this, like this is something I can handle.

789
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 3: And then there's when my mom comes up, It'll be

790
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 3: like old times. And I think that that's the most

791
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,720
Speaker 3: sad part for me, is just like the holding onto

792
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 3: hope of like that he will get his mom back

793
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 3: in the way that he hopes. You know that this

794
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,240
Speaker 3: sort of like like when we were all living together,

795
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 3: like when he used to be easy, and you know,

796
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 3: I'd see her all the time and we talk all

797
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,240
Speaker 3: the time. And I think that that's the sad reality

798
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 3: is just that like the fantasy that you know that

799
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 3: Sam seems to hold around it over time is like

800
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 3: slowly crushed. And I think that what's extra sad about

801
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 3: it for me is just thinking about how knowing two

802
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 3: stable parents, my mom and my dad, I can kind

803
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 3: of like refer back to nostalgic times with them and

804
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 3: kind of see a through line to now. When I

805
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 3: think about Sam and Joyce and Jared and Joyce, they

806
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 3: think about how this disruption and time really did cause

807
00:49:55,360 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 3: a permanent shift that would need like a great amount

808
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 3: of repair work to get back to some level of

809
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 3: trust and security. I think that Jared got that a

810
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 3: bit more than Sam by living with her and like

811
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 3: really kind of immersing into her new world. Sam did

812
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 3: not get that, and it's been really challenging, and his

813
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:22,800
Speaker 3: process with her has been more of a slow drip.

814
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,800
Speaker 3: And they do, you know, they'll do phone calls maybe

815
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:28,919
Speaker 3: once or twice a month and talk about the weather,

816
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 3: but nothing to tend not to talk about like emotional

817
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 3: things or like about the abandonment or about the movie.

818
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:37,359
Speaker 3: They just keep it really basic. And then when they

819
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:41,919
Speaker 3: do have visits, which is is like every few years now,

820
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 3: it seems like at the fastest clip, it's like visit

821
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 3: for a day and then leave. It's like, in Sam's words,

822
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 3: about as much as they can take of each other.

823
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 2: And this was Sam choosing, really choosing himself for a

824
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,359
Speaker 2: period of time, stop being in touch with Joyce and

825
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 2: then now having this much much more distanced, much more

826
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,959
Speaker 2: sporadic relationship with her. I mean, there's a moment where

827
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 2: she says, because he's distanced himself that she felt that

828
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 2: he was punishing her, And it's said in such a

829
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 2: kind of befuddled way, like why would he do that?

830
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 3: Why would he?

831
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:27,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, Sam does choose himself, and in so doing he

832
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 2: builds a life that, while certainly shaped by Joyce's abandonment,

833
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 2: also makes meaning out of his emotionally complex and traumatic experience.

834
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:41,880
Speaker 2: This is all we can do, right, take what life

835
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 2: has handed us and make something true, something real, something

836
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 2: powerful from the ashes. By the time Read's film ends

837
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:56,799
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty, Sam has a longtime partner. Bailey Reid

838
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:00,839
Speaker 2: asks the couple whether they think they'll have kids. They

839
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 2: look at each other in a way, and then they

840
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 2: say that they're thinking about fostering and adopting. That's the

841
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 2: way they want to make a family. And that has

842
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 2: also become Sam's life's work. He does youth social work

843
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 2: with unhoused kids.

844
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 3: It's so hard to know these things, right, I mean,

845
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 3: you know, Sam choosing to go into social work, Sam

846
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:29,399
Speaker 3: choosing to work with young people who also are experiencing

847
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 3: like alienation from their parents, street youth. I think of this.

848
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 3: I think of, like, how how many youth are on

849
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 3: the street that are like disconnected from their parents, and

850
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 3: why all those trust issues, all these kind of same things.

851
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 3: Sam works with people like that. Now he's doing domestic

852
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 3: violence work, where he'll work with like high school sports

853
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:57,959
Speaker 3: teams and like help them understand relationship concepts. He works

854
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 3: with survivors and domestic violence and does an amazing work.

855
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 3: The through line is so incredible. It's like his personal pain,

856
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 3: like this really big thing in his world is what

857
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 3: he's most committed to giving back and where he feels

858
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:19,359
Speaker 3: the strongest calling. I find that really interesting and I'd

859
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 3: be interested to know if that's If that's true for

860
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:23,839
Speaker 3: a lot of people in social work.

861
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 2: I think it's true in my experience on this podcast

862
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 2: and just in my life of hearing a lot of

863
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 2: stories of a lot of trauma, that the capacity to

864
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 2: make meaning out of it is what saves us. And

865
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 2: there are multiple ways of making meaning out of trauma.

866
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 2: Some people make art out of trauma. Some people write

867
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 2: books out of trauma, some people make films out of trauma.

868
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 2: Some people go into the healing arts out of trauma,

869
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 2: some people go into psychology and social work out of trauma.

870
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 2: And you know, it strikes me as such an incredibly

871
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:59,760
Speaker 2: healthy adaptation, because if we can make meaning out of something,

872
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 2: then we've stripped it of its power over us because

873
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 2: we've made something good out of it.

874
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. I like that, And I like how Sam sort

875
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 3: of uses this as a pattern breaking in his life too,

876
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 3: where he's like actively engaging in other people's stories and

877
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 3: learning about all these different tools and methods for how

878
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 3: to talk about relationships, like just being on the pioneering

879
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 3: side of relationship conversations, and that that is providing for

880
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 3: him this understanding, you know, for work that he needs

881
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:40,360
Speaker 3: to do for himself. It's keeping him aware of it.

882
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 3: Yet at the same time he says things like, I

883
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 3: think a lot of my life has been helping other people,

884
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 3: so I don't have to face my own shit, you know, like, oh,

885
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 3: this person has it really rough, I'm gonna focus on

886
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 3: their thing. But also I see the awareness of trauma,

887
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 3: childhood trauma, the awareness of of like patterns in life,

888
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 3: and how you know, he starts replaying some of the

889
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 3: patterns that were handed down and how he's he begins

890
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 3: to actively say things like I want to break I

891
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 3: want to be the one to step out of this.

892
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 3: So these are the things where it's like what does

893
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 3: it take to truly break a generational pattern? But you know,

894
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 3: we've got Joyce's mother has in Japan put her up

895
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 3: for adoption. There's like maybe a first observation of an abandonment,

896
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 3: and then she's adopted to this American family who Joyce

897
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:35,359
Speaker 3: claims didn't really love her or connect with her in

898
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 3: a way that would bring about security, and so there's

899
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 3: another level of abandonment. And then Joyce you know, of course,

900
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 3: like you know, gets to this point where she abandons

901
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:47,320
Speaker 3: her own children, and then Sam comes to the awareness

902
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 3: that like he's capable of abandoning people. He's really scared

903
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 3: of that idea. And he has just kind of had

904
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 3: these relationships with girlfriends where he's just sort of walked

905
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 3: away with no feeling no oh, I just heard that person.

906
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,320
Speaker 3: And he has become aware of it. He's done therapy

907
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:05,319
Speaker 3: and he's like kind of like, oh my gosh, what

908
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 3: is this? So you know, lifetimes, lifetimes are happening. And

909
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 3: then we get to Sam and then Sam's like, how

910
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 3: do I address this? And you know, and I'm a

911
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 3: part of that too, with like, hey, I'm I'm recording

912
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:22,319
Speaker 3: this all and I'm putting it out so that you

913
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 3: have it and also so that other families can look

914
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,320
Speaker 3: at this. And then there's the patterning in the Harkness

915
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 3: family too, where it's like, what are the ways in

916
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 3: which we support these patterns that aren't seen? And I

917
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 3: think that that's the elephant in the room stuff, the secrecy,

918
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:39,760
Speaker 3: the part where it's like it's uncomfortable to talk about

919
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 3: some things. That's where the things are allowed to ride

920
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 3: on forever unless we look at them, unless we feel

921
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 3: the fear and the pain of them. I think that

922
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:51,880
Speaker 3: they just they'll just ride on. They'll stay there. The

923
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 3: skeletons will stay there. They'll stay right there in the

924
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 3: closet unless you open the door and look at it

925
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 3: and think about what it is, and then and then

926
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 3: it can potentially be free.

927
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 2: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly Zaccur is

928
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 2: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer.

929
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 2: If you have a family secret you'd like to share,

930
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 2: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear

931
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 2: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight

932
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:40,760
Speaker 2: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also

933
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 2: find me on Instagram at Danny Rider. And if you'd

934
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 2: like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast,

935
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 2: check out my memoir Inheritance.

936
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

937
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.