WEBVTT - #342 Maggie Freleng with Nancy Smith 0:00:00.880 --> 0:00:04.520 A warning for listeners. This episode contains graphic language and 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:09.200 descriptions of child molestation. Please listen with caution and care. 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:20.599 In nineteen ninety seven, Nancy Smith, a single mom, was 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.400 working multiple jobs to provide for her four children. One 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:27.440 of those jobs was driving preschool age children to and 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:30.240 from the head Start program five days a week, and 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:32.680 Nancy took the responsibility seriously. 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:37.400 I was there on time, I was there to pick 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:38.960 them up on time, and I was there to take 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:41.720 them home on time. You know, I had four kids. 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:43.360 I didn't have time to play around. 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:46.800 And then one day she was called into her boss's office. 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:50.600 One of the children's mothers had made a shocking allegation 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:51.720 against Nancy. 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:55.880 They said that you didn't take her daughter to school, 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:57.960 you took her daughter to a birthday party where you 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:01.880 molested her. And I'm like, what what are you talking about. 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:06.720 Then other parents started coming forward saying the same thing, 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:11.280 that Nancy had molested their children. Soon the allegations were 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:16.120 all over the papers and TV. Things escalated until finally 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:19.280 Nancy was arrested for multiple counts of. 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:24.320 Repe They took me down to the police station. They 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:26.800 put me in a holding cell, and I can remember 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.319 one of the detectives come up to the holding sell 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:32.600 and he just gave me this really nasty look, and 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:38.560 he said, you'll get what you deserve. I'm Nancy Smith. 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:45.120 I was wrongfully convicted for fifteen years. 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:47.080 From Love of for Good. This is wrongful conviction with 0:01:47.120 --> 0:02:07.120 Maggie Freeling today Nancy Smith. Nancy Smith was born May 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:10.840 twenty sixth, nineteen fifty seven, to Tom and Shirley Miller. 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.600 She's one of seven siblings. The family lived in Lorraine, Ohio, 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:20.280 a suburb of Cleveland. When Nancy was growing up, Lorraine 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:24.000 was known as the International City, celebrating the thriving and 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:27.880 diverse immigrant population who came looking for work in booming 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:29.680 industries like steel production. 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:33.320 It was, of course, much better when I was growing 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:36.919 up than it is now. A lot of things have changed, 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:41.520 but it's, you know, still Lorraine today. 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.480 Like many other Roust Belt cities, Lorraine has suffered from 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:48.280 population decline and urban decay. But back in the fifties 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:52.359 and sixties, Lorraine was the ideal all American city. 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:57.760 We've lived a normal childhood. Oh, we used to play kickball. 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:01.280 Jack's was a big thing. Jackson balls, just normal things 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:04.520 that kids did. Always had games and stuff that we 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:08.080 played at home. You know, we didn't have a whole lot, 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:11.280 but we had the love that we needed from my 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:12.079 mom and dad. 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:17.400 But for her parents, raising seven kids was tough. 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:22.080 My dad was like the sole provider. My mom worked 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:22.800 when she could. 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:25.720 But you know what did your dad do for work? 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:28.280 Well, he worked at a cemetery for forty one years. 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:30.959 He was a foreman at two different cemeteries. 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:32.480 Did you go to high school? 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:37.200 Oh yeah, I went my whole senior year and that's 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:42.880 so embarrassing, and I flunk POD in the six weeks pod. 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:43.480 What is that? 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:49.000 Problems of democracy? I mean, which you know, I didn't 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:50.760 really think I needed it at that time. 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:58.960 You know, although she didn't graduate high school, Nancy was 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:02.280 a hard worker. She held multiple jobs throughout her teenage years, 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.600 including at a flower shop, a marina, and the local 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:08.880 Why how would you describe yourself? 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:14.680 Wow, I don't know. I thought I was a good 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:15.480 kind person. 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:15.840 You know. 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.480 When she was nineteen, Nancy entered a new phase of life. 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:27.719 She got married and started a family. 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:32.840 I have four kids, and you know, they're the greatest 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:33.599 part of my life. 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:38.240 So tell me about growing up, Like, what was your. 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:42.240 Mom like, I mean, my mom was my mom. You know. 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:46.880 This is Courtney Smith, Nancy's second youngest child. She's now 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:47.360 forty two. 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:52.640 Now, I specifically remember being you know, like happy. I 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:54.880 mean to me, I would say it was a normal, 0:04:55.600 --> 0:05:00.520 happy childhood. We lived in a very clean household. You know, 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.800 we never went without. We were always fed, and we 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:06.840 always had, you know, what we needed, not necessarily what 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:09.560 we wanted, but you know, kids are kids. 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:12.440 And Nancy was good at making do with what they had. 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.840 Okay, here's a memory that she's probably not gonna laugh at, 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:20.840 but I will. The one year for Christmas they gave 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:24.960 us plastic like nice, and then we had to cut 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:30.000 the Christmas presents open with knives like plastic like, we 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:31.000 were not allowed to rip it? 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:31.800 Right? 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:33.640 Wait, why couldn't you rip it? 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:35.640 Because they were being frugal? I don't know. 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:37.720 And then you know, my listen, Oh, because they wanted 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:38.720 to save the paper. 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:41.120 Yeah, they were gonna they wanted to save the paper. 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:49.960 Okay. But although Nancy loved her children, her marriage was crumbling. 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:53.000 It wasn't a really happy marriage. 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:56.960 She and her husband eventually divorced. By nineteen ninety three, 0:05:57.279 --> 0:05:59.680 Nancy was in her late thirties and all four of 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:02.880 her and were teenagers. She worked multiple jobs to make 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:03.480 ends meet. 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:06.800 You know, it was pretty tough to make sure that, 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:08.720 you know, I could get my kids to school and 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:11.440 be home in enough time for them to you know, 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:13.320 make them dinner, get them ready for bed, and whatever. 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:16.120 So it was, you know, it wasn't easy for the 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:18.360 most part of being a single mom. 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:20.359 You know, I did the best I could. 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:23.320 One of her jobs was driving a bus for Headstart, 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.440 a federal program for low income children under five to 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:29.320 prepare them for school. She also drove for Meals on 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:31.840 Wheels and the YMCA, So. 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:35.200 In between my bus routes, I would deliver meals to 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:40.000 the Senior Citizens, and then I also did a route 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:43.839 for the YMCA their after school program there. And then 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:46.520 I would finish my day up with picking up the 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:48.839 afternoon kids and dropping them off at home. 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:52.280 At the same time, Nancy was also taking night classes 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:56.040 to complete her ged. It all made for a busy day. 0:06:56.640 --> 0:07:00.280 I made sure that, you know, I was there on time. 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:02.760 I was there to pick them up on time, and 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:04.760 I was there to take them home on time. You know, 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:07.280 I had four kids. I had to do my job, 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:09.600 so I'd get home to my family, so I didn't 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:10.880 have time to play around. 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:20.960 So I want to ask about May seventh, nineteen ninety three. 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:22.840 What do you remember about that day? 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:26.120 It started out as any other normal day. I went 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:29.239 to work and I got my bus warmed up and whatever. 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:32.480 That's when her boss came over to talk to her. 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:35.559 When you're done with your bus route, He said, spring 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:37.320 you to take your bus, put it back up the station, 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:38.760 then come down to downtown. 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:39.800 We'd like to talk to you. 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:43.480 And I was like, oh, okay, no idea, no, I said, 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:45.280 what's it about? And he goes, ah, we'll just talk 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:46.080 to you when you get there. 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:49.640 When she walked in the office later that day, to 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:52.880 her surprise, the director of the head Start program was 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:53.480 also there. 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.600 That's when she told me that a mother had made 0:07:57.600 --> 0:07:59.640 an allegation against me. And I was like, what do 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:02.800 you mean an allegation against me? And she said, well, 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:05.880 they said that you didn't take her daughter to school, 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:07.960 you took her daughter to a birthday party where you 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:12.400 molested her. And I'm like, what what are you talking about. 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:15.960 The whole thing seemed preposterous to Nancy. 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.600 I said, you guys have my records I said, you 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.480 have my Miley sheets. You have there's records showing that 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:24.560 this kid went to school. What are you talking about? 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:26.720 And they were like, well, you know, we just we 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.239 have to address it because this is what some others 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:30.080 accusing you of. 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:34.840 But with all the documentation they had, Nancy was certain 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:36.559 they'd see the story wasn't true. 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:39.840 I followed the rules on my job, you know what 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:41.640 I mean. I had a bus aid with me at 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.680 all times. How would anybody accuse me of something like that? 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:48.000 I had two other jobs. When did people think I 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:53.559 had time to do this, you know? And then and 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:57.760 to accuse me being a mother of that. I can't 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:00.880 even tell you what that felt like. You can't even 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:05.680 imagine being a mother of four kids and having someone 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:07.240 say something like that about you. 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:08.600 It's horrible. 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:18.520 Nancy was suspended from her head Start bus driving job 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:21.840 while the allegations were being investigated, but she still had 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:24.600 a family to feed, so she continued to drive her 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:25.680 other roots. 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:30.720 And the next thing I know, it just escalated to 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:36.320 this nightmare that ended me in prison for fifteen years. 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:42.240 After a mother accused Nancy of molesting her daughter, an 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:46.000 official investigation was opened. It was headed up by Detective 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:49.640 Tom Canto, a respected twenty year veteran of the force. 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:54.640 Canto spoke with the woman who made the allegations, Margie Grondin. 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:57.960 He also spoke to her daughter. To protect her privacy, 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:02.320 we'll call her Grace. While speaking with them, officers observed 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:05.439 that most of the information about the molestation came from 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:09.720 the mother, Margie, not from Grace. Grace actually said the 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:14.880 abuse never happened, until they noted Margie coaxed her to 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:19.640 say otherwise. Police said the little girl's responses became incoherent 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:23.679 or illogical. The doctor who examined Grace also stated that 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:26.640 she didn't see any signs of injury to her body. 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:31.320 Based on these initial interviews, the police determined that it 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:35.280 was unlikely that Margie Gronden's story was true, but it 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.360 was a serious allegation and the police were under pressure 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:41.840 to do a thorough investigation. Detectives then went on to 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:45.720 interview the eleven other children who rode Nancy's bus. None 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:48.640 of them said they were abused. In fact, they all 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:51.079 said they liked Nancy and that she was a nice 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:56.280 bus driver, but Margie Grondon kept it up. She went 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:58.400 to the homes of two of the children, whom we'll 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:00.960 call Luke and Sarah, and she told their parents that 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:04.719 their children had been molested. When Luke and Sarah were 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:07.720 interviewed by the police, it was clear they were simply 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:11.600 repeating what their parents and Margie Grondin told them to say. 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:15.760 Detective can't do. For the second time, determined there was 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:20.040 not enough evidence to substantiate the allegations, and he announced 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:21.840 that he wanted to close the case. 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:25.760 I just thought it's never going to go nowhere because 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:28.920 I didn't do anything, you know, which. 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:32.800 At first it didn't, and then next thing you know, 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:37.839 Margaret Grondon is all over the media talking about this. 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:43.840 Enraged that the police were not moving forward on charging Nancy. 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:47.439 Margie Grondin went to the media saying a molester was 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.640 stalking head Start children and that the police were doing 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:52.080 nothing about it. 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:54.840 I was just like, oh my god, what is this 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:58.320 woman doing, What is she doing? Why is she doing 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:00.880 this to me? I never had any albums with her, 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:05.480 and her child was always back at her house, always 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:07.280 at time. I mean, this woman used to give me 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:10.800 my boss aid gifts at Christmas time, at Easter time, 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:14.080 and then to turn around and make an allegation like 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:16.439 this against me was I was just floored. 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:20.120 And Nancy was especially confused when she found out what 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:25.800 she was actually being accused of. Margie Grondin claimed her 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:29.320 daughter didn't go to school that day. Instead, she said 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:32.000 Nancy took Grace to the house of a man named Joseph, 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.880 who was allegedly Nancy's boyfriend, and that he tied Grace up, 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:39.720 put tape over her eyes, and sexually molested her with 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:40.320 a stick. 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:45.600 At this point, had the name Joseph been brought up to. 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:50.160 You, I never knew about Joseph Allen until his picture 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:51.240 hit the newspaper. 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:11.319 This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company. 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:15.760 AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and to making 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.480 a positive difference in the lives of its employees and 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.520 in the communities where they work and live. In light 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:24.480 of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:28.960 in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform, 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:33.320 the AIG Pro Bono Program provides free legal services and 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:47.120 other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. Thanks to Margie 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:51.640 Grondin's public accusations, Nancy found herself in the center of 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:52.720 a media frenzy. 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.720 It was on every news channel, it was in the newspapers. 0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:00.400 I had media coming to my house knocking on my door. 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:04.520 Over the next few months, fifteen other children came forward 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:07.839 with stories of abuse by Nancy and Joseph. Ten were 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:10.360 proven to be baseless right off the bat, because those 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:13.920 children didn't ride Nancy's bus route. One of them didn't 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:22.720 even attend headstart. After these added allegations, Nancy volunteered to 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:25.600 take a polygraph, which at the time was still believed 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:28.880 to be a reliable method of detecting laws. According to 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:32.960 the test administrator, she passed so for the third time. 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:36.440 Detective Cantwo wrote a report stating that he believed the 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:40.240 allegations were unfounded in that he wouldn't bring any charges 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:45.200 against Nancy. Detective Cantwo was then taken off the case. 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:52.760 Other detectives resumed the investigation, and for months the only 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:55.680 information they had about the second suspect was that his 0:14:55.760 --> 0:15:02.760 name was Joseph. The police ultimately believed five children, Grace, Luke, Sarah, 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:05.400 and two of the fifteen who came forward after the 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:10.160 media frenzy. They all had varying descriptions of Joseph, sometimes 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:14.600 saying he was white, sometimes black, and sometimes black with 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:19.320 white spots. One of the children identified a white man 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:22.840 whose name was not Joseph, as the perpetrator, but his 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.040 house did not match the description of the house the 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:28.800 children had given, so he was ruled out. Another white man, 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:32.040 the owner of a gay bar, was identified and also 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:37.000 ruled out. The police became frustrated with the children's muddled 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:41.240 and unreliable information, and while trying to get answers, they 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:45.760 asked leading repetitive questions designed to fit the narrative given 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:50.760 by the parents. So when you do start seeing these 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:54.600 media reports, then it becomes it starts becoming an actual situation. 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:59.560 I think when it first hit me was the day 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:02.920 that they are rest at me in front of my kids. 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:12.000 The arrest happened six months after the alleged crimes took place, 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:14.680 on November tenth, nineteen ninety three. 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:18.400 They came to my parents' home and it was like 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:21.400 five cop cars and they handcuffed me in front of 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.760 my children. That's something they should never have had to 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.640 worry about, and that's something that I never should have 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:28.560 had to worry about. 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:33.760 Eventually, police also settled on their second suspect, a thirty 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.200 nine year old black man named Joseph Allen, who was 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:41.720 being investigated for an unrelated crime. Nancy remembers seeing his 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:44.600 picture in the news before they were both arrested. 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:46.560 And that was the first time that I actually ever 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:51.840 seen Joseph Allen. I remember calling Jack Bradley, my attorney 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:53.840 at the time, and I was like, oh my god, Jack, 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:55.840 who is the sky? I don't even know who the 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:58.640 sky is? And he said, well, they're trying to say 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:00.720 that this was your boyfriend. I said, I don't know 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:04.080 who this man is. I've never even met this man before. 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:07.960 Nancy was charged with multiple counts of rape. 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:11.480 I'm trying to remember if they even said anything to me. 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:14.200 I mean, at this point, I think I just kind 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:17.840 of like just blanked out because they you know, they 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:18.800 handcuffed me. 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:20.520 They took me down to the police station. 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:23.840 They put me in a holding cell, and I can 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:27.240 remember one of the detectives come up to the holding 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:29.680 cell and he just gave me this really nasty look 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:33.040 and he said, you'll get what you deserve and he 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:35.640 walked away. And you know what, I'm sitting in there, 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:40.200 I'm I'm just I'm crying. I don't know what to do. 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:43.879 You know, they just let me lay there for hours 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:48.280 and hours and hours. I'm this just this still bed, nothing, 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:51.160 just a plain still bed. They just let me lay 0:17:51.200 --> 0:18:04.560 there for hours and hours and hours. 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.520 The trial started in July of nineteen ninety four. The 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:12.840 prosecutor was Jonathan Rosenbaum. He called Margie Grondin along with 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.680 a few other parents to testify as to what they 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:18.639 heard and saw from the children. He also called a 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:21.639 bus aid who said she had previously seen Joseph Allen 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:25.480 with Nancy during her bus route. He also presented four 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:28.360 of the five children who said they were molested. One 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:30.680 of them said on the stand the abuse never happened, 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:35.160 but the other three went into detail when. 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:38.879 Talking about the sexual allegations. It's the sort of things 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:42.520 that like a kid who doesn't actually know about sexual 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:45.960 interactions might say when someone says, what happened to you 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:46.440 down there? 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:49.560 This is Mark Gotsey, a professor of law at the 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.560 University of Cincinnati College of Law and director of the 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:55.879 Ohio Innocence Project. He says the kid's stories were not 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:59.119 only inconsistent with each other and with the previous statements, 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:03.880 but that they were also obviously made up, so. 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.399 They would say things like, you know, they stuck sticks 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:08.920 up our butt, they make us drink pee. This is 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:10.560 like the sort of ridiculous things that three and four 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:12.720 year olds when they're doing bathroom talk talk about. 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:16.720 I mean, it was just ridiculous, you know, to sit 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:18.960 there and watch these little kids talk about something that 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:20.760 they didn't even know what they were talking. 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:24.359 About, including things like I was tied up to a 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:27.359 tree out on a busy street and I was naked, 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:30.520 and I was tied up all day long. Like any 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:32.720 kid that's like four years old is going to be 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:35.200 naked and tied to a tree right by a busy 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:37.280 road all day and somebody's not going to call the police, 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:38.919 and no one's going to have any memory of this, 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:41.600 you know, just very bizarre type things. 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:44.800 I mean, I'm sitting there listening to this like, are 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:47.359 you kidding me? I mean, are you really kidding me? 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:52.040 This? Where's this shit coming from? Can I cuss? Because 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:55.720 I have a bet? I'm sorry. 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:58.000 I get when I start getting talking about it, I get, 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:01.639 really I can say some pretty horrible words. 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:04.800 Mark understands why Nancy is frustrated. 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:07.880 The thing that's difficult about this case is that it's 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:12.240 hard to imagine how bad the defense attorney did. 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:16.160 The defense attorney was Jack Bradley. Mark says that Bradley 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:21.080 did a horrible job at presenting evidence to disprove the allegations. 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:24.479 There are things that you just can't get past that 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.160 prove this did not happen, and they were all either 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:30.560 not introduced or ignored. It was like a perfect storm. 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:34.600 For example, on the day in question, and every day 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:37.760 there was a babysitter in the back of the bus 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.960 who was willing to testify I was back there. There 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:44.680 was never a day where I got taken to some 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:47.920 boyfriend of Nancy's house and these kids were molested. Of course, 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:52.160 not right, and this person was not called as a witness, Like, 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:55.720 how can you make this up? There were attendance records 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:58.679 showing that the kids were there on the day in question, 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:02.040 and in fact, the kids who were part of this 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:04.720 allegation and testified at trial were never all absent on 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:05.399 the same day. 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:06.760 Was that brought up at trial? 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:11.600 Oh, when Bradley called Nancy to testify, she said she 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:15.000 had never seen Joseph Allen in her life. He also 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:18.480 called a transportation manager from a local County agency who 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:21.520 testified that they checked Nancy's bus mileage and did not 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:25.440 detect any side trips, but no documents were entered into 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:28.040 evidence or shown to the jury. 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:31.520 It doesn't matter if you think the allegations, it doesn't 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:33.600 matter if they're ludicrous. If you've got evidence showing it 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:36.560 didn't happen, you still got to introduce it. The defense 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:39.800 attorney didn't introduce any of it, and to evidence, I 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:41.800 think he thought there's no way there's going to be 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:42.240 a conviction. 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:47.800 I mean, that was like a fog, sitting in this 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:51.400 trial by a man that I didn't even know, being 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:56.800 falsely accused of molesting children, having my family sit in 0:21:56.800 --> 0:21:59.480 a courtroom and listened to this appalling shit that was 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:02.119 coming out of their mouth lies and the people getting 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:03.880 on standing lie in and just. 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:08.040 Did you think that you would be convicted? 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:12.040 No, no, there's no way. 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:13.400 I thought there's no way. 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:20.240 But on August fourth, nineteen ninety four, Nancy was convicted 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:24.320 of all charges. She was sentenced to thirty to ninety 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:25.480 years in prison. 0:22:26.760 --> 0:22:29.960 And I can remember Jonathan Rosenbob making a smirk ass 0:22:30.040 --> 0:22:33.960 face that he always did, and I lunged toward the 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:37.399 table I remember that Jack. I remember Jack pulling me 0:22:37.480 --> 0:22:41.160 back and then them taking me down to the holding cell. 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:45.840 I mean, I felt like I was like, it was 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:49.119 just so unreal. I'm sorry, I don't need to cry. 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:51.560 It's so hard to try to relive this. 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:58.760 Nancy's daughter, Courtney, who was fourteen at the time, also 0:22:58.840 --> 0:23:02.160 remembers that moment herd was convicted. She and her siblings 0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:04.639 weren't allowed in the courtroom, so she was in the 0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:07.600 hallway of the courthouse watching the trial on TV. 0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:17.679 I remember watching it going dumbfounded, right, like what is 0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:18.200 going on? 0:23:18.400 --> 0:23:21.560 And I remember like all the newspapers, you know, the 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:25.720 reporters and the TV stations and they're all flashing, and 0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:31.560 I remember screaming at Margie and going are you happy now? 0:23:32.280 --> 0:23:32.840 The B word? 0:23:33.840 --> 0:23:36.560 And the next day, I know, I'm being like pulled 0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:38.760 away and she's like, your mother did this, you know, 0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:42.359 and I'm like, no, she did it, but you know, 0:23:42.400 --> 0:23:44.320