Speaker 1: A warning for listeners. This episode contains graphic language and
Speaker 1: descriptions of child molestation. Please listen with caution and care.
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety seven, Nancy Smith, a single mom, was
Speaker 1: working multiple jobs to provide for her four children. One
Speaker 1: of those jobs was driving preschool age children to and
Speaker 1: from the head Start program five days a week, and
Speaker 1: Nancy took the responsibility seriously.
Speaker 2: I was there on time, I was there to pick
Speaker 2: them up on time, and I was there to take
Speaker 2: them home on time. You know, I had four kids.
Speaker 2: I didn't have time to play around.
Speaker 1: And then one day she was called into her boss's office.
Speaker 1: One of the children's mothers had made a shocking allegation
Speaker 1: against Nancy.
Speaker 2: They said that you didn't take her daughter to school,
Speaker 2: you took her daughter to a birthday party where you
Speaker 2: molested her. And I'm like, what what are you talking about.
Speaker 1: Then other parents started coming forward saying the same thing,
Speaker 1: that Nancy had molested their children. Soon the allegations were
Speaker 1: all over the papers and TV. Things escalated until finally
Speaker 1: Nancy was arrested for multiple counts of.
Speaker 2: Repe They took me down to the police station. They
Speaker 2: put me in a holding cell, and I can remember
Speaker 2: one of the detectives come up to the holding sell
Speaker 2: and he just gave me this really nasty look, and
Speaker 2: he said, you'll get what you deserve. I'm Nancy Smith.
Speaker 2: I was wrongfully convicted for fifteen years.
Speaker 1: From Love of for Good. This is wrongful conviction with
Speaker 1: Maggie Freeling today Nancy Smith. Nancy Smith was born May
Speaker 1: twenty sixth, nineteen fifty seven, to Tom and Shirley Miller.
Speaker 1: She's one of seven siblings. The family lived in Lorraine, Ohio,
Speaker 1: a suburb of Cleveland. When Nancy was growing up, Lorraine
Speaker 1: was known as the International City, celebrating the thriving and
Speaker 1: diverse immigrant population who came looking for work in booming
Speaker 1: industries like steel production.
Speaker 2: It was, of course, much better when I was growing
Speaker 2: up than it is now. A lot of things have changed,
Speaker 2: but it's, you know, still Lorraine today.
Speaker 1: Like many other Roust Belt cities, Lorraine has suffered from
Speaker 1: population decline and urban decay. But back in the fifties
Speaker 1: and sixties, Lorraine was the ideal all American city.
Speaker 2: We've lived a normal childhood. Oh, we used to play kickball.
Speaker 2: Jack's was a big thing. Jackson balls, just normal things
Speaker 2: that kids did. Always had games and stuff that we
Speaker 2: played at home. You know, we didn't have a whole lot,
Speaker 2: but we had the love that we needed from my
Speaker 2: mom and dad.
Speaker 1: But for her parents, raising seven kids was tough.
Speaker 2: My dad was like the sole provider. My mom worked
Speaker 2: when she could.
Speaker 3: But you know what did your dad do for work?
Speaker 2: Well, he worked at a cemetery for forty one years.
Speaker 2: He was a foreman at two different cemeteries.
Speaker 3: Did you go to high school?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I went my whole senior year and that's
Speaker 2: so embarrassing, and I flunk POD in the six weeks pod.
Speaker 3: What is that?
Speaker 2: Problems of democracy? I mean, which you know, I didn't
Speaker 2: really think I needed it at that time.
Speaker 1: You know, although she didn't graduate high school, Nancy was
Speaker 1: a hard worker. She held multiple jobs throughout her teenage years,
Speaker 1: including at a flower shop, a marina, and the local
Speaker 1: Why how would you describe yourself?
Speaker 2: Wow, I don't know. I thought I was a good
Speaker 2: kind person.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: When she was nineteen, Nancy entered a new phase of life.
Speaker 1: She got married and started a family.
Speaker 2: I have four kids, and you know, they're the greatest
Speaker 2: part of my life.
Speaker 3: So tell me about growing up, Like, what was your.
Speaker 4: Mom like, I mean, my mom was my mom. You know.
Speaker 1: This is Courtney Smith, Nancy's second youngest child. She's now
Speaker 1: forty two.
Speaker 5: Now, I specifically remember being you know, like happy. I
Speaker 5: mean to me, I would say it was a normal,
Speaker 5: happy childhood. We lived in a very clean household. You know,
Speaker 5: we never went without. We were always fed, and we
Speaker 5: always had, you know, what we needed, not necessarily what
Speaker 5: we wanted, but you know, kids are kids.
Speaker 1: And Nancy was good at making do with what they had.
Speaker 5: Okay, here's a memory that she's probably not gonna laugh at,
Speaker 5: but I will. The one year for Christmas they gave
Speaker 5: us plastic like nice, and then we had to cut
Speaker 5: the Christmas presents open with knives like plastic like, we
Speaker 5: were not allowed to rip it?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: Wait, why couldn't you rip it?
Speaker 4: Because they were being frugal? I don't know.
Speaker 3: And then you know, my listen, Oh, because they wanted
Speaker 3: to save the paper.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they were gonna they wanted to save the paper.
Speaker 1: Okay. But although Nancy loved her children, her marriage was crumbling.
Speaker 2: It wasn't a really happy marriage.
Speaker 1: She and her husband eventually divorced. By nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 1: Nancy was in her late thirties and all four of
Speaker 1: her and were teenagers. She worked multiple jobs to make
Speaker 1: ends meet.
Speaker 2: You know, it was pretty tough to make sure that,
Speaker 2: you know, I could get my kids to school and
Speaker 2: be home in enough time for them to you know,
Speaker 2: make them dinner, get them ready for bed, and whatever.
Speaker 2: So it was, you know, it wasn't easy for the
Speaker 2: most part of being a single mom.
Speaker 4: You know, I did the best I could.
Speaker 1: One of her jobs was driving a bus for Headstart,
Speaker 1: a federal program for low income children under five to
Speaker 1: prepare them for school. She also drove for Meals on
Speaker 1: Wheels and the YMCA, So.
Speaker 2: In between my bus routes, I would deliver meals to
Speaker 2: the Senior Citizens, and then I also did a route
Speaker 2: for the YMCA their after school program there. And then
Speaker 2: I would finish my day up with picking up the
Speaker 2: afternoon kids and dropping them off at home.
Speaker 1: At the same time, Nancy was also taking night classes
Speaker 1: to complete her ged. It all made for a busy day.
Speaker 2: I made sure that, you know, I was there on time.
Speaker 2: I was there to pick them up on time, and
Speaker 2: I was there to take them home on time. You know,
Speaker 2: I had four kids. I had to do my job,
Speaker 2: so I'd get home to my family, so I didn't
Speaker 2: have time to play around.
Speaker 1: So I want to ask about May seventh, nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 3: What do you remember about that day?
Speaker 2: It started out as any other normal day. I went
Speaker 2: to work and I got my bus warmed up and whatever.
Speaker 1: That's when her boss came over to talk to her.
Speaker 2: When you're done with your bus route, He said, spring
Speaker 2: you to take your bus, put it back up the station,
Speaker 2: then come down to downtown.
Speaker 4: We'd like to talk to you.
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, okay, no idea, no, I said,
Speaker 2: what's it about? And he goes, ah, we'll just talk
Speaker 2: to you when you get there.
Speaker 1: When she walked in the office later that day, to
Speaker 1: her surprise, the director of the head Start program was
Speaker 1: also there.
Speaker 2: That's when she told me that a mother had made
Speaker 2: an allegation against me. And I was like, what do
Speaker 2: you mean an allegation against me? And she said, well,
Speaker 2: they said that you didn't take her daughter to school,
Speaker 2: you took her daughter to a birthday party where you
Speaker 2: molested her. And I'm like, what what are you talking about.
Speaker 1: The whole thing seemed preposterous to Nancy.
Speaker 2: I said, you guys have my records I said, you
Speaker 2: have my Miley sheets. You have there's records showing that
Speaker 2: this kid went to school. What are you talking about?
Speaker 2: And they were like, well, you know, we just we
Speaker 2: have to address it because this is what some others
Speaker 2: accusing you of.
Speaker 1: But with all the documentation they had, Nancy was certain
Speaker 1: they'd see the story wasn't true.
Speaker 2: I followed the rules on my job, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. I had a bus aid with me at
Speaker 2: all times. How would anybody accuse me of something like that?
Speaker 2: I had two other jobs. When did people think I
Speaker 2: had time to do this, you know? And then and
Speaker 2: to accuse me being a mother of that. I can't
Speaker 2: even tell you what that felt like. You can't even
Speaker 2: imagine being a mother of four kids and having someone
Speaker 2: say something like that about you.
Speaker 4: It's horrible.
Speaker 1: Nancy was suspended from her head Start bus driving job
Speaker 1: while the allegations were being investigated, but she still had
Speaker 1: a family to feed, so she continued to drive her
Speaker 1: other roots.
Speaker 2: And the next thing I know, it just escalated to
Speaker 2: this nightmare that ended me in prison for fifteen years.
Speaker 1: After a mother accused Nancy of molesting her daughter, an
Speaker 1: official investigation was opened. It was headed up by Detective
Speaker 1: Tom Canto, a respected twenty year veteran of the force.
Speaker 1: Canto spoke with the woman who made the allegations, Margie Grondin.
Speaker 1: He also spoke to her daughter. To protect her privacy,
Speaker 1: we'll call her Grace. While speaking with them, officers observed
Speaker 1: that most of the information about the molestation came from
Speaker 1: the mother, Margie, not from Grace. Grace actually said the
Speaker 1: abuse never happened, until they noted Margie coaxed her to
Speaker 1: say otherwise. Police said the little girl's responses became incoherent
Speaker 1: or illogical. The doctor who examined Grace also stated that
Speaker 1: she didn't see any signs of injury to her body.
Speaker 1: Based on these initial interviews, the police determined that it
Speaker 1: was unlikely that Margie Gronden's story was true, but it
Speaker 1: was a serious allegation and the police were under pressure
Speaker 1: to do a thorough investigation. Detectives then went on to
Speaker 1: interview the eleven other children who rode Nancy's bus. None
Speaker 1: of them said they were abused. In fact, they all
Speaker 1: said they liked Nancy and that she was a nice
Speaker 1: bus driver, but Margie Grondon kept it up. She went
Speaker 1: to the homes of two of the children, whom we'll
Speaker 1: call Luke and Sarah, and she told their parents that
Speaker 1: their children had been molested. When Luke and Sarah were
Speaker 1: interviewed by the police, it was clear they were simply
Speaker 1: repeating what their parents and Margie Grondin told them to say.
Speaker 1: Detective can't do. For the second time, determined there was
Speaker 1: not enough evidence to substantiate the allegations, and he announced
Speaker 1: that he wanted to close the case.
Speaker 2: I just thought it's never going to go nowhere because
Speaker 2: I didn't do anything, you know, which.
Speaker 1: At first it didn't, and then next thing you know,
Speaker 1: Margaret Grondon is all over the media talking about this.
Speaker 1: Enraged that the police were not moving forward on charging Nancy.
Speaker 1: Margie Grondin went to the media saying a molester was
Speaker 1: stalking head Start children and that the police were doing
Speaker 1: nothing about it.
Speaker 2: I was just like, oh my god, what is this
Speaker 2: woman doing, What is she doing? Why is she doing
Speaker 2: this to me? I never had any albums with her,
Speaker 2: and her child was always back at her house, always
Speaker 2: at time. I mean, this woman used to give me
Speaker 2: my boss aid gifts at Christmas time, at Easter time,
Speaker 2: and then to turn around and make an allegation like
Speaker 2: this against me was I was just floored.
Speaker 1: And Nancy was especially confused when she found out what
Speaker 1: she was actually being accused of. Margie Grondin claimed her
Speaker 1: daughter didn't go to school that day. Instead, she said
Speaker 1: Nancy took Grace to the house of a man named Joseph,
Speaker 1: who was allegedly Nancy's boyfriend, and that he tied Grace up,
Speaker 1: put tape over her eyes, and sexually molested her with
Speaker 1: a stick.
Speaker 3: At this point, had the name Joseph been brought up to.
Speaker 2: You, I never knew about Joseph Allen until his picture
Speaker 2: hit the newspaper.
Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company.
Speaker 1: AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and to making
Speaker 1: a positive difference in the lives of its employees and
Speaker 1: in the communities where they work and live. In light
Speaker 1: of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and
Speaker 1: in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform,
Speaker 1: the AIG Pro Bono Program provides free legal services and
Speaker 1: other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. Thanks to Margie
Speaker 1: Grondin's public accusations, Nancy found herself in the center of
Speaker 1: a media frenzy.
Speaker 2: It was on every news channel, it was in the newspapers.
Speaker 2: I had media coming to my house knocking on my door.
Speaker 1: Over the next few months, fifteen other children came forward
Speaker 1: with stories of abuse by Nancy and Joseph. Ten were
Speaker 1: proven to be baseless right off the bat, because those
Speaker 1: children didn't ride Nancy's bus route. One of them didn't
Speaker 1: even attend headstart. After these added allegations, Nancy volunteered to
Speaker 1: take a polygraph, which at the time was still believed
Speaker 1: to be a reliable method of detecting laws. According to
Speaker 1: the test administrator, she passed so for the third time.
Speaker 1: Detective Cantwo wrote a report stating that he believed the
Speaker 1: allegations were unfounded in that he wouldn't bring any charges
Speaker 1: against Nancy. Detective Cantwo was then taken off the case.
Speaker 1: Other detectives resumed the investigation, and for months the only
Speaker 1: information they had about the second suspect was that his
Speaker 1: name was Joseph. The police ultimately believed five children, Grace, Luke, Sarah,
Speaker 1: and two of the fifteen who came forward after the
Speaker 1: media frenzy. They all had varying descriptions of Joseph, sometimes
Speaker 1: saying he was white, sometimes black, and sometimes black with
Speaker 1: white spots. One of the children identified a white man
Speaker 1: whose name was not Joseph, as the perpetrator, but his
Speaker 1: house did not match the description of the house the
Speaker 1: children had given, so he was ruled out. Another white man,
Speaker 1: the owner of a gay bar, was identified and also
Speaker 1: ruled out. The police became frustrated with the children's muddled
Speaker 1: and unreliable information, and while trying to get answers, they
Speaker 1: asked leading repetitive questions designed to fit the narrative given
Speaker 1: by the parents. So when you do start seeing these
Speaker 1: media reports, then it becomes it starts becoming an actual situation.
Speaker 2: I think when it first hit me was the day
Speaker 2: that they are rest at me in front of my kids.
Speaker 1: The arrest happened six months after the alleged crimes took place,
Speaker 1: on November tenth, nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 2: They came to my parents' home and it was like
Speaker 2: five cop cars and they handcuffed me in front of
Speaker 2: my children. That's something they should never have had to
Speaker 2: worry about, and that's something that I never should have
Speaker 2: had to worry about.
Speaker 1: Eventually, police also settled on their second suspect, a thirty
Speaker 1: nine year old black man named Joseph Allen, who was
Speaker 1: being investigated for an unrelated crime. Nancy remembers seeing his
Speaker 1: picture in the news before they were both arrested.
Speaker 2: And that was the first time that I actually ever
Speaker 2: seen Joseph Allen. I remember calling Jack Bradley, my attorney
Speaker 2: at the time, and I was like, oh my god, Jack,
Speaker 2: who is the sky? I don't even know who the
Speaker 2: sky is? And he said, well, they're trying to say
Speaker 2: that this was your boyfriend. I said, I don't know
Speaker 2: who this man is. I've never even met this man before.
Speaker 1: Nancy was charged with multiple counts of rape.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember if they even said anything to me.
Speaker 2: I mean, at this point, I think I just kind
Speaker 2: of like just blanked out because they you know, they
Speaker 2: handcuffed me.
Speaker 4: They took me down to the police station.
Speaker 2: They put me in a holding cell, and I can
Speaker 2: remember one of the detectives come up to the holding
Speaker 2: cell and he just gave me this really nasty look
Speaker 2: and he said, you'll get what you deserve and he
Speaker 2: walked away. And you know what, I'm sitting in there,
Speaker 2: I'm I'm just I'm crying. I don't know what to do.
Speaker 2: You know, they just let me lay there for hours
Speaker 2: and hours and hours. I'm this just this still bed, nothing,
Speaker 2: just a plain still bed. They just let me lay
Speaker 2: there for hours and hours and hours.
Speaker 1: The trial started in July of nineteen ninety four. The
Speaker 1: prosecutor was Jonathan Rosenbaum. He called Margie Grondin along with
Speaker 1: a few other parents to testify as to what they
Speaker 1: heard and saw from the children. He also called a
Speaker 1: bus aid who said she had previously seen Joseph Allen
Speaker 1: with Nancy during her bus route. He also presented four
Speaker 1: of the five children who said they were molested. One
Speaker 1: of them said on the stand the abuse never happened,
Speaker 1: but the other three went into detail when.
Speaker 6: Talking about the sexual allegations. It's the sort of things
Speaker 6: that like a kid who doesn't actually know about sexual
Speaker 6: interactions might say when someone says, what happened to you
Speaker 6: down there?
Speaker 1: This is Mark Gotsey, a professor of law at the
Speaker 1: University of Cincinnati College of Law and director of the
Speaker 1: Ohio Innocence Project. He says the kid's stories were not
Speaker 1: only inconsistent with each other and with the previous statements,
Speaker 1: but that they were also obviously made up, so.
Speaker 6: They would say things like, you know, they stuck sticks
Speaker 6: up our butt, they make us drink pee. This is
Speaker 6: like the sort of ridiculous things that three and four
Speaker 6: year olds when they're doing bathroom talk talk about.
Speaker 2: I mean, it was just ridiculous, you know, to sit
Speaker 2: there and watch these little kids talk about something that
Speaker 2: they didn't even know what they were talking.
Speaker 6: About, including things like I was tied up to a
Speaker 6: tree out on a busy street and I was naked,
Speaker 6: and I was tied up all day long. Like any
Speaker 6: kid that's like four years old is going to be
Speaker 6: naked and tied to a tree right by a busy
Speaker 6: road all day and somebody's not going to call the police,
Speaker 6: and no one's going to have any memory of this,
Speaker 6: you know, just very bizarre type things.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sitting there listening to this like, are
Speaker 2: you kidding me? I mean, are you really kidding me?
Speaker 4: This? Where's this shit coming from? Can I cuss? Because
Speaker 4: I have a bet? I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: I get when I start getting talking about it, I get,
Speaker 2: really I can say some pretty horrible words.
Speaker 1: Mark understands why Nancy is frustrated.
Speaker 6: The thing that's difficult about this case is that it's
Speaker 6: hard to imagine how bad the defense attorney did.
Speaker 1: The defense attorney was Jack Bradley. Mark says that Bradley
Speaker 1: did a horrible job at presenting evidence to disprove the allegations.
Speaker 6: There are things that you just can't get past that
Speaker 6: prove this did not happen, and they were all either
Speaker 6: not introduced or ignored. It was like a perfect storm.
Speaker 6: For example, on the day in question, and every day
Speaker 6: there was a babysitter in the back of the bus
Speaker 6: who was willing to testify I was back there. There
Speaker 6: was never a day where I got taken to some
Speaker 6: boyfriend of Nancy's house and these kids were molested. Of course,
Speaker 6: not right, and this person was not called as a witness, Like,
Speaker 6: how can you make this up? There were attendance records
Speaker 6: showing that the kids were there on the day in question,
Speaker 6: and in fact, the kids who were part of this
Speaker 6: allegation and testified at trial were never all absent on
Speaker 6: the same day.
Speaker 3: Was that brought up at trial?
Speaker 1: Oh, when Bradley called Nancy to testify, she said she
Speaker 1: had never seen Joseph Allen in her life. He also
Speaker 1: called a transportation manager from a local County agency who
Speaker 1: testified that they checked Nancy's bus mileage and did not
Speaker 1: detect any side trips, but no documents were entered into
Speaker 1: evidence or shown to the jury.
Speaker 6: It doesn't matter if you think the allegations, it doesn't
Speaker 6: matter if they're ludicrous. If you've got evidence showing it
Speaker 6: didn't happen, you still got to introduce it. The defense
Speaker 6: attorney didn't introduce any of it, and to evidence, I
Speaker 6: think he thought there's no way there's going to be
Speaker 6: a conviction.
Speaker 2: I mean, that was like a fog, sitting in this
Speaker 2: trial by a man that I didn't even know, being
Speaker 2: falsely accused of molesting children, having my family sit in
Speaker 2: a courtroom and listened to this appalling shit that was
Speaker 2: coming out of their mouth lies and the people getting
Speaker 2: on standing lie in and just.
Speaker 3: Did you think that you would be convicted?
Speaker 2: No, no, there's no way.
Speaker 4: I thought there's no way.
Speaker 1: But on August fourth, nineteen ninety four, Nancy was convicted
Speaker 1: of all charges. She was sentenced to thirty to ninety
Speaker 1: years in prison.
Speaker 2: And I can remember Jonathan Rosenbob making a smirk ass
Speaker 2: face that he always did, and I lunged toward the
Speaker 2: table I remember that Jack. I remember Jack pulling me
Speaker 2: back and then them taking me down to the holding cell.
Speaker 2: I mean, I felt like I was like, it was
Speaker 2: just so unreal. I'm sorry, I don't need to cry.
Speaker 2: It's so hard to try to relive this.
Speaker 1: Nancy's daughter, Courtney, who was fourteen at the time, also
Speaker 1: remembers that moment herd was convicted. She and her siblings
Speaker 1: weren't allowed in the courtroom, so she was in the
Speaker 1: hallway of the courthouse watching the trial on TV.
Speaker 4: I remember watching it going dumbfounded, right, like what is
Speaker 4: going on?
Speaker 5: And I remember like all the newspapers, you know, the
Speaker 5: reporters and the TV stations and they're all flashing, and
Speaker 5: I remember screaming at Margie and going are you happy now?
Speaker 4: The B word?
Speaker 5: And the next day, I know, I'm being like pulled
Speaker 5: away and she's like, your mother did this, you know,
Speaker 5: and I'm like, no, she did it, but you know,
Speaker 5: they pulled me out, and then I just remember sitting
Speaker 5: there going, what's gonna happen to us?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: After the convictions, Margie Grondin, along with several other parents,
Speaker 1: sued the Lorraine County Head Start program for damages. They
Speaker 1: won their cases and settled for one point five million
Speaker 1: dollars each.
Speaker 6: So in the eighties and nineties we went through this
Speaker 6: era where there were a couple famous cases where individuals
Speaker 6: claimed that their very young children had been sexually abused
Speaker 6: in daycare set had some sort of deep pockets behind them,
Speaker 6: like head Start, federally funded places, you could get some
Speaker 6: sort of big settlement. It was like part of the
Speaker 6: Satanic panic where the parents who would be able to
Speaker 6: draw up these charges were making millions.
Speaker 1: The phrase satanic panic came about because, in addition to molestations,
Speaker 1: children sometimes also described satanic rituals, which is flying through
Speaker 1: the air and other bizarre events. One of the most
Speaker 1: notorious examples is the McMartin case. In the early nineteen eighties,
Speaker 1: members of the McMartin family, who operated a preschool in
Speaker 1: Manhattan Beach, California, were charged with hundreds of acts of
Speaker 1: sexual abuse involving children under their care. The story set
Speaker 1: off a national media frenzy.
Speaker 6: It was like this hysteria that was like whipped up that,
Speaker 6: Oh my god, all these little kids are being molested
Speaker 6: by these daycare centers. This is like, you know, a pandemic.
Speaker 6: This is a huge problem that's going on in sweeping
Speaker 6: the country.
Speaker 1: The McMartin case was ultimately dismissed seven years later, but
Speaker 1: not before dozens of similar, unfounded lawsuits had erupted back
Speaker 1: in the nineties, even the eighties. Were you aware of
Speaker 1: any other cases like yours, like specifically this McMartin case
Speaker 1: is a really famous one.
Speaker 4: No, No, I never, you know.
Speaker 2: I mean, I was too busy being a mom and
Speaker 2: doing what I was doing to you know, really wasn't
Speaker 2: into the news and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: After her sentencing, Nancy was sent to Marysville Reformatory Prison
Speaker 1: in Ohio.
Speaker 4: I think the first two years I cried myself to
Speaker 4: sleep every night.
Speaker 3: So, Courtney, did you stay close with your mom?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 5: Yeah, We talked whenever she could afford to, and it
Speaker 5: got easier when I had a job so we could
Speaker 5: send to her. Buddy somebody would always take us down,
Speaker 5: you know, like it was like a monthly thing. And
Speaker 5: then when we got old enough when we could go ourselves.
Speaker 5: I mean there was times that I took friends with
Speaker 5: me so they could meet her.
Speaker 3: What is seeing your mom in prison?
Speaker 4: Like, No, it's not a fun, enjoyable experience.
Speaker 5: So it really was never a pleasant experience, but at
Speaker 5: least we were able to go see her.
Speaker 1: Eventually. Nancy felt some joy when she joined the prison's
Speaker 1: horticulture program.
Speaker 2: Like that was my saving grace. I mean, honestly, I
Speaker 2: did this program for nine years, and then the man
Speaker 2: who ran the program asked me if I would stay
Speaker 2: on of his aid, and so I would be the
Speaker 2: one that they would let go in the greenhouse and just.
Speaker 4: Wadder all the flowers. I can remember just.
Speaker 2: Putting my headphones on and just going there and just
Speaker 2: thinking I was just in a whole different place.
Speaker 1: After Mark and the Ohio Innocence Project took on her case,
Speaker 1: things started to turn around for Nancy. In two thousand
Speaker 1: and nine, a new state law in Ohio required Nancy
Speaker 1: to be resentenced. Mark and his team petitioned the court
Speaker 1: arguing there was not enough evidence for a conviction, and
Speaker 1: Judge James Burge agreed. So Nancy's conviction was vacated and
Speaker 1: she went home and.
Speaker 4: I thought, oh my god, this is fine. This nightmare
Speaker 4: is finally over. It's finally over.
Speaker 1: But thirty days later, the state appealed the ruling and
Speaker 1: Nancy's conviction was restored. She didn't return to prison, though
Speaker 1: her hearing was delayed for two years, and during that time,
Speaker 1: Nancy tried to resume a semblance of normalcy.
Speaker 3: So what was picking up the pieces of your life?
Speaker 2: Like the first five years, I was home, Like I
Speaker 2: wouldn't go anywhere without anybody. Somebody had to be with
Speaker 2: me at all times, because I don't know how I
Speaker 2: would react as have somebody come up and say something
Speaker 2: really negative to me. I was already angry for all
Speaker 2: these years that I spent in prison and fighting this
Speaker 2: case for so many years, and so the first five
Speaker 2: years was really tough for me to you know, the
Speaker 2: postmatic stress disorder, the anxiety, not knowing if I'm going
Speaker 2: back to prisoners, staying home or whatever.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, Mark and his team were focused on
Speaker 1: filing a post conviction motion for clemency based on a
Speaker 1: bombshell video they discovered that had been withheld by the prosecution.
Speaker 1: The video showed the police lineup where the children from
Speaker 1: head Start were being asked to identify their molester, and
Speaker 1: what was actually going on in that room was shocking.
Speaker 6: The parents were coaching during the I would just identification
Speaker 6: and like taking the kid's hands and pointing them at
Speaker 6: Joseph Allen.
Speaker 1: The Ohio Innocence Project also compiled records showing the abuse
Speaker 1: could not have occurred because all the children were in
Speaker 1: school the day it supposedly happened, and they submitted affidavits
Speaker 1: from Nancy's bus aides stating that they saw Nancy drop
Speaker 1: the kids at school. On top of that, Mark and
Speaker 1: his team also submitted to the court records showing she
Speaker 1: was working two other jobs the afternoon in question. In
Speaker 1: April of twenty twelve, Mark, along with the law firm Davis,
Speaker 1: Polk and Wardwell, filed a petition for clemency with the
Speaker 1: Ohio Parole Board and Governor John Kasick. In addition to
Speaker 1: Nancy's innocence, the petition also argued that child psychologists have
Speaker 1: since discredited the techniques used for questioning the children at the.
Speaker 6: Time this was going on. What the common belief was
Speaker 6: that if a kid is saying this, it must be true,
Speaker 6: because why would a kid make this up? And you know,
Speaker 6: from the mouths of babes, you know, like that's the
Speaker 6: phrase that kids are always telling the truth because they
Speaker 6: don't know to lie yet, when in reality, when they're
Speaker 6: being coached or when an adult is trying to get
Speaker 6: them to say something. They're very adaptable and they're very
Speaker 6: easy to manipulate and get to say what the adult
Speaker 6: wants them to say. You know, children will come to
Speaker 6: believe what they're being told over and over again and
Speaker 6: what they're being coached to believe. And that's well established
Speaker 6: in the psychological literature. And now, you know, decades later,
Speaker 6: when the smoke is cleared, we realized that this was
Speaker 6: most of these people are actually innocent. A lot of
Speaker 6: these cases were drummed up for people who were, you know,
Speaker 6: seeking to sue and get monetary damages, and that's exactly
Speaker 6: what Nancy Smith got unfortunately wrapped up in.
Speaker 1: In twenty thirteen, Nancy was finally resentenced to twelve years
Speaker 1: and having already served fourteen, she was granted time served,
Speaker 1: but she was still not exonerated of the charges, meaning
Speaker 1: to the rest of the world, Nancy was still a
Speaker 1: con child rapist. Fast forward to twenty twenty one, when
Speaker 1: there was a changing of the guard in Lorraine County.
Speaker 6: We had an open minded prosecutor who was going to
Speaker 6: take a second look at it.
Speaker 1: The new prosecutor, JD. Tomlinson actually started his own investigation
Speaker 1: into Nancy's case in conjunction with Mark and his team.
Speaker 1: This was promising, and then late one night, Mark was
Speaker 1: working in his office when something completely unexpected happened.
Speaker 6: I get a call from Gino Grundin.
Speaker 1: Dino was the son of Margie Grundin and Grace's older brother.
Speaker 6: Who said, I've got a story for you. Like I
Speaker 6: have a daughter now, this is the same age, and
Speaker 6: Margie Grundan is her grandmother, my mother, and Margie Grundin
Speaker 6: is manipulating her the same way I saw Margie Grunden
Speaker 6: manipulate my little sister when I was a kid. She's
Speaker 6: doing the same thing again. She's like coach my own kid.
Speaker 6: And so I became concerned that Margie Gardner was trying
Speaker 6: to set up the same scenario that she had done
Speaker 6: back in the nineties, where she was able to get
Speaker 6: money by using her own child, but this time doing
Speaker 6: the grandchild.
Speaker 1: The authorities confirmed Dino's allegations by catching Margie on a
Speaker 1: nanny cam.
Speaker 6: They found that the child was being coached when they
Speaker 6: left the room, but they left the tape recorder on
Speaker 6: and she was like practicing and practice, crying and stuff.
Speaker 6: This is what exactly what Dino Grundan was telling us
Speaker 6: was going on.
Speaker 1: This revelation, along with an affidavit from the original investigator,
Speaker 1: Detective Cantu, was enough for Prosecutor Tomlinson. After his own
Speaker 1: five month investigation, Tomlinson was sure of Nancy's innocence and
Speaker 1: he moved to have the charges dismissed, and at a
Speaker 1: hearing on February twenty fifth, twenty twenty two, he offered
Speaker 1: a public apology.
Speaker 7: Mister s that I apologize to you, especially for what
Speaker 7: was done to you and to your fans as a
Speaker 7: result of this ill conceived prosecution. I'll behalf to the
Speaker 7: state of Ohio. I wish nothing but the best for
Speaker 7: you Andrew lovemost and I hope that in the future
Speaker 7: only happiness and good fortunately about you run right, I
Speaker 7: would be moving this honorable course dismiss these matters.
Speaker 1: That day, Judge Chris Cook vacated Nancy's convictions for the
Speaker 1: final time. Today, Nancy is still living in Lorain, Ohio.
Speaker 1: She's a dog groomer and volunteers at her church to
Speaker 1: give back to people less fortunate. She still doesn't like
Speaker 1: to go places alone, but she's received much more support
Speaker 1: than she.
Speaker 2: Expected I would have people come up and say, can
Speaker 2: I just give you a hug? Or come up to
Speaker 2: me and say, we're just so glad. We always believed
Speaker 2: in you. We knew that this was bogus. We knew
Speaker 2: that this case was not true.
Speaker 1: So Courtney, why do you think Margie Grundan did this money?
Speaker 5: I think one hundred and time percent, she concocted a
Speaker 5: game for money, and that's why she did this.
Speaker 4: You know, to me, she's a narcissist.
Speaker 1: What does that feel like that your mom's life was
Speaker 1: worth less than some money?
Speaker 4: I think it's that's horrible.
Speaker 5: But you know, the older you get, the more mature
Speaker 5: you get, you know, you really start understanding that there
Speaker 5: are truly people out there that don't care, and they
Speaker 5: don't care what they put other people through, and they're
Speaker 5: gonna do whatever they want to get whatever they want.
Speaker 5: And then this is just one of those cases.
Speaker 2: All it takes is one person, one person, a Margie
Speaker 2: Grunted to do this to you, and before you know what,
Speaker 2: your life's just.
Speaker 4: Gone from you.
Speaker 2: You know, I mean, one thing I can say today
Speaker 2: is that I will never ever let somebody else do
Speaker 2: this to me again. But know that I survived, and
Speaker 2: I got through this with the grace of God. I
Speaker 2: got through this with Mark Gatzi in the Instant Project.
Speaker 2: I got through this with Judge Burge. I got through
Speaker 2: this with JD. Tomlinson. And I'll continue to get through
Speaker 2: every obstacle that ever comes my way in life because
Speaker 2: I know that I can, and I know that I can,
Speaker 2: you know, continue not to live the best life that
Speaker 2: I can do.
Speaker 1: To help Ohio xuneries, Nancy suggests supporting the Phoenix Initiative,
Speaker 1: which provides clothing, toes and other necessities to xoneries when
Speaker 1: they're released. Links to this and to the Ohio Innocence
Speaker 1: Project will be in our bio next time. On Wrongful
Speaker 1: Conviction with Maggie Freeling, Tammy Vance she.
Speaker 8: Was snoring really loud, and all of a sudden it stopped.
Speaker 8: When I frigged out and I tell Lee, she's not breathing.
Speaker 8: She's not breathing. They got on the phone with nine
Speaker 8: one one and I administered CPR until the ambulance got there.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. Please
Speaker 1: support your local innocence organizations and go to the links
Speaker 1: in our bio to see how you can help. I'd
Speaker 1: like to thank our executive producers Jason Flamm and Kevin Wurtis,
Speaker 1: as well as our senior producer, Annie Chelsea, producer Lyla Robae,
Speaker 1: and sin and story editor Sonia Paul. The show is
Speaker 1: edited and mixed by Annie Chelsea, with additional production by
Speaker 1: Jeff Cliburn and Connor Hall. The music in this production
Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be
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