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Speaker 1: A warning for listeners. This episode contains graphic language and

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Speaker 1: descriptions of child molestation. Please listen with caution and care.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety seven, Nancy Smith, a single mom, was

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Speaker 1: working multiple jobs to provide for her four children. One

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Speaker 1: of those jobs was driving preschool age children to and

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Speaker 1: from the head Start program five days a week, and

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Speaker 1: Nancy took the responsibility seriously.

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Speaker 2: I was there on time, I was there to pick

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Speaker 2: them up on time, and I was there to take

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Speaker 2: them home on time. You know, I had four kids.

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Speaker 2: I didn't have time to play around.

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Speaker 1: And then one day she was called into her boss's office.

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Speaker 1: One of the children's mothers had made a shocking allegation

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Speaker 1: against Nancy.

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Speaker 2: They said that you didn't take her daughter to school,

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Speaker 2: you took her daughter to a birthday party where you

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Speaker 2: molested her. And I'm like, what what are you talking about.

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Speaker 1: Then other parents started coming forward saying the same thing,

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Speaker 1: that Nancy had molested their children. Soon the allegations were

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Speaker 1: all over the papers and TV. Things escalated until finally

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Speaker 1: Nancy was arrested for multiple counts of.

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Speaker 2: Repe They took me down to the police station. They

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Speaker 2: put me in a holding cell, and I can remember

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Speaker 2: one of the detectives come up to the holding sell

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Speaker 2: and he just gave me this really nasty look, and

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Speaker 2: he said, you'll get what you deserve. I'm Nancy Smith.

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Speaker 2: I was wrongfully convicted for fifteen years.

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Speaker 1: From Love of for Good. This is wrongful conviction with

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Speaker 1: Maggie Freeling today Nancy Smith. Nancy Smith was born May

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Speaker 1: twenty sixth, nineteen fifty seven, to Tom and Shirley Miller.

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Speaker 1: She's one of seven siblings. The family lived in Lorraine, Ohio,

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Speaker 1: a suburb of Cleveland. When Nancy was growing up, Lorraine

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Speaker 1: was known as the International City, celebrating the thriving and

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Speaker 1: diverse immigrant population who came looking for work in booming

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Speaker 1: industries like steel production.

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Speaker 2: It was, of course, much better when I was growing

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Speaker 2: up than it is now. A lot of things have changed,

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Speaker 2: but it's, you know, still Lorraine today.

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Speaker 1: Like many other Roust Belt cities, Lorraine has suffered from

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Speaker 1: population decline and urban decay. But back in the fifties

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Speaker 1: and sixties, Lorraine was the ideal all American city.

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Speaker 2: We've lived a normal childhood. Oh, we used to play kickball.

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Speaker 2: Jack's was a big thing. Jackson balls, just normal things

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Speaker 2: that kids did. Always had games and stuff that we

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Speaker 2: played at home. You know, we didn't have a whole lot,

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Speaker 2: but we had the love that we needed from my

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Speaker 2: mom and dad.

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Speaker 1: But for her parents, raising seven kids was tough.

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Speaker 2: My dad was like the sole provider. My mom worked

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Speaker 2: when she could.

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Speaker 3: But you know what did your dad do for work?

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Speaker 2: Well, he worked at a cemetery for forty one years.

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Speaker 2: He was a foreman at two different cemeteries.

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Speaker 3: Did you go to high school?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I went my whole senior year and that's

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Speaker 2: so embarrassing, and I flunk POD in the six weeks pod.

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Speaker 3: What is that?

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Speaker 2: Problems of democracy? I mean, which you know, I didn't

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Speaker 2: really think I needed it at that time.

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Speaker 1: You know, although she didn't graduate high school, Nancy was

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Speaker 1: a hard worker. She held multiple jobs throughout her teenage years,

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Speaker 1: including at a flower shop, a marina, and the local

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Speaker 1: Why how would you describe yourself?

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Speaker 2: Wow, I don't know. I thought I was a good

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Speaker 2: kind person.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 1: When she was nineteen, Nancy entered a new phase of life.

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Speaker 1: She got married and started a family.

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Speaker 2: I have four kids, and you know, they're the greatest

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Speaker 2: part of my life.

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Speaker 3: So tell me about growing up, Like, what was your.

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Speaker 4: Mom like, I mean, my mom was my mom. You know.

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Speaker 1: This is Courtney Smith, Nancy's second youngest child. She's now

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Speaker 1: forty two.

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Speaker 5: Now, I specifically remember being you know, like happy. I

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Speaker 5: mean to me, I would say it was a normal,

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Speaker 5: happy childhood. We lived in a very clean household. You know,

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Speaker 5: we never went without. We were always fed, and we

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Speaker 5: always had, you know, what we needed, not necessarily what

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Speaker 5: we wanted, but you know, kids are kids.

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Speaker 1: And Nancy was good at making do with what they had.

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Speaker 5: Okay, here's a memory that she's probably not gonna laugh at,

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Speaker 5: but I will. The one year for Christmas they gave

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Speaker 5: us plastic like nice, and then we had to cut

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Speaker 5: the Christmas presents open with knives like plastic like, we

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Speaker 5: were not allowed to rip it?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: Wait, why couldn't you rip it?

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Speaker 4: Because they were being frugal? I don't know.

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Speaker 3: And then you know, my listen, Oh, because they wanted

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Speaker 3: to save the paper.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they were gonna they wanted to save the paper.

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Speaker 1: Okay. But although Nancy loved her children, her marriage was crumbling.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't a really happy marriage.

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Speaker 1: She and her husband eventually divorced. By nineteen ninety three,

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Speaker 1: Nancy was in her late thirties and all four of

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Speaker 1: her and were teenagers. She worked multiple jobs to make

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Speaker 1: ends meet.

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Speaker 2: You know, it was pretty tough to make sure that,

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Speaker 2: you know, I could get my kids to school and

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Speaker 2: be home in enough time for them to you know,

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Speaker 2: make them dinner, get them ready for bed, and whatever.

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Speaker 2: So it was, you know, it wasn't easy for the

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Speaker 2: most part of being a single mom.

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Speaker 4: You know, I did the best I could.

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Speaker 1: One of her jobs was driving a bus for Headstart,

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Speaker 1: a federal program for low income children under five to

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Speaker 1: prepare them for school. She also drove for Meals on

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Speaker 1: Wheels and the YMCA, So.

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Speaker 2: In between my bus routes, I would deliver meals to

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Speaker 2: the Senior Citizens, and then I also did a route

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Speaker 2: for the YMCA their after school program there. And then

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Speaker 2: I would finish my day up with picking up the

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Speaker 2: afternoon kids and dropping them off at home.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, Nancy was also taking night classes

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Speaker 1: to complete her ged. It all made for a busy day.

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Speaker 2: I made sure that, you know, I was there on time.

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Speaker 2: I was there to pick them up on time, and

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Speaker 2: I was there to take them home on time. You know,

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Speaker 2: I had four kids. I had to do my job,

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Speaker 2: so I'd get home to my family, so I didn't

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Speaker 2: have time to play around.

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Speaker 1: So I want to ask about May seventh, nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 3: What do you remember about that day?

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Speaker 2: It started out as any other normal day. I went

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Speaker 2: to work and I got my bus warmed up and whatever.

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Speaker 1: That's when her boss came over to talk to her.

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Speaker 2: When you're done with your bus route, He said, spring

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Speaker 2: you to take your bus, put it back up the station,

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Speaker 2: then come down to downtown.

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Speaker 4: We'd like to talk to you.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, okay, no idea, no, I said,

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Speaker 2: what's it about? And he goes, ah, we'll just talk

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Speaker 2: to you when you get there.

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Speaker 1: When she walked in the office later that day, to

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Speaker 1: her surprise, the director of the head Start program was

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Speaker 1: also there.

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Speaker 2: That's when she told me that a mother had made

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Speaker 2: an allegation against me. And I was like, what do

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Speaker 2: you mean an allegation against me? And she said, well,

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Speaker 2: they said that you didn't take her daughter to school,

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Speaker 2: you took her daughter to a birthday party where you

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Speaker 2: molested her. And I'm like, what what are you talking about.

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Speaker 1: The whole thing seemed preposterous to Nancy.

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Speaker 2: I said, you guys have my records I said, you

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Speaker 2: have my Miley sheets. You have there's records showing that

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Speaker 2: this kid went to school. What are you talking about?

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Speaker 2: And they were like, well, you know, we just we

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Speaker 2: have to address it because this is what some others

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Speaker 2: accusing you of.

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Speaker 1: But with all the documentation they had, Nancy was certain

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Speaker 1: they'd see the story wasn't true.

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Speaker 2: I followed the rules on my job, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean. I had a bus aid with me at

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Speaker 2: all times. How would anybody accuse me of something like that?

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Speaker 2: I had two other jobs. When did people think I

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Speaker 2: had time to do this, you know? And then and

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Speaker 2: to accuse me being a mother of that. I can't

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Speaker 2: even tell you what that felt like. You can't even

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Speaker 2: imagine being a mother of four kids and having someone

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Speaker 2: say something like that about you.

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Speaker 4: It's horrible.

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Speaker 1: Nancy was suspended from her head Start bus driving job

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Speaker 1: while the allegations were being investigated, but she still had

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Speaker 1: a family to feed, so she continued to drive her

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Speaker 1: other roots.

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Speaker 2: And the next thing I know, it just escalated to

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Speaker 2: this nightmare that ended me in prison for fifteen years.

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Speaker 1: After a mother accused Nancy of molesting her daughter, an

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Speaker 1: official investigation was opened. It was headed up by Detective

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Speaker 1: Tom Canto, a respected twenty year veteran of the force.

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Speaker 1: Canto spoke with the woman who made the allegations, Margie Grondin.

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Speaker 1: He also spoke to her daughter. To protect her privacy,

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Speaker 1: we'll call her Grace. While speaking with them, officers observed

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Speaker 1: that most of the information about the molestation came from

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Speaker 1: the mother, Margie, not from Grace. Grace actually said the

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Speaker 1: abuse never happened, until they noted Margie coaxed her to

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Speaker 1: say otherwise. Police said the little girl's responses became incoherent

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Speaker 1: or illogical. The doctor who examined Grace also stated that

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Speaker 1: she didn't see any signs of injury to her body.

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Speaker 1: Based on these initial interviews, the police determined that it

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Speaker 1: was unlikely that Margie Gronden's story was true, but it

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Speaker 1: was a serious allegation and the police were under pressure

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Speaker 1: to do a thorough investigation. Detectives then went on to

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Speaker 1: interview the eleven other children who rode Nancy's bus. None

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Speaker 1: of them said they were abused. In fact, they all

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Speaker 1: said they liked Nancy and that she was a nice

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Speaker 1: bus driver, but Margie Grondon kept it up. She went

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Speaker 1: to the homes of two of the children, whom we'll

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Speaker 1: call Luke and Sarah, and she told their parents that

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Speaker 1: their children had been molested. When Luke and Sarah were

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Speaker 1: interviewed by the police, it was clear they were simply

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Speaker 1: repeating what their parents and Margie Grondin told them to say.

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Speaker 1: Detective can't do. For the second time, determined there was

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Speaker 1: not enough evidence to substantiate the allegations, and he announced

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Speaker 1: that he wanted to close the case.

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Speaker 2: I just thought it's never going to go nowhere because

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Speaker 2: I didn't do anything, you know, which.

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Speaker 1: At first it didn't, and then next thing you know,

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Speaker 1: Margaret Grondon is all over the media talking about this.

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Speaker 1: Enraged that the police were not moving forward on charging Nancy.

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Speaker 1: Margie Grondin went to the media saying a molester was

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Speaker 1: stalking head Start children and that the police were doing

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Speaker 1: nothing about it.

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Speaker 2: I was just like, oh my god, what is this

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Speaker 2: woman doing, What is she doing? Why is she doing

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Speaker 2: this to me? I never had any albums with her,

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Speaker 2: and her child was always back at her house, always

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Speaker 2: at time. I mean, this woman used to give me

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Speaker 2: my boss aid gifts at Christmas time, at Easter time,

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Speaker 2: and then to turn around and make an allegation like

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Speaker 2: this against me was I was just floored.

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Speaker 1: And Nancy was especially confused when she found out what

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Speaker 1: she was actually being accused of. Margie Grondin claimed her

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Speaker 1: daughter didn't go to school that day. Instead, she said

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Speaker 1: Nancy took Grace to the house of a man named Joseph,

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Speaker 1: who was allegedly Nancy's boyfriend, and that he tied Grace up,

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Speaker 1: put tape over her eyes, and sexually molested her with

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Speaker 1: a stick.

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Speaker 3: At this point, had the name Joseph been brought up to.

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Speaker 2: You, I never knew about Joseph Allen until his picture

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Speaker 2: hit the newspaper.

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Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company.

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Speaker 1: AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and to making

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Speaker 1: a positive difference in the lives of its employees and

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Speaker 1: in the communities where they work and live. In light

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Speaker 1: of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and

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Speaker 1: in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform,

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Speaker 1: the AIG Pro Bono Program provides free legal services and

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Speaker 1: other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. Thanks to Margie

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Speaker 1: Grondin's public accusations, Nancy found herself in the center of

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Speaker 1: a media frenzy.

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Speaker 2: It was on every news channel, it was in the newspapers.

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Speaker 2: I had media coming to my house knocking on my door.

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Speaker 1: Over the next few months, fifteen other children came forward

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Speaker 1: with stories of abuse by Nancy and Joseph. Ten were

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Speaker 1: proven to be baseless right off the bat, because those

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Speaker 1: children didn't ride Nancy's bus route. One of them didn't

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Speaker 1: even attend headstart. After these added allegations, Nancy volunteered to

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Speaker 1: take a polygraph, which at the time was still believed

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Speaker 1: to be a reliable method of detecting laws. According to

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Speaker 1: the test administrator, she passed so for the third time.

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Speaker 1: Detective Cantwo wrote a report stating that he believed the

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Speaker 1: allegations were unfounded in that he wouldn't bring any charges

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Speaker 1: against Nancy. Detective Cantwo was then taken off the case.

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Speaker 1: Other detectives resumed the investigation, and for months the only

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Speaker 1: information they had about the second suspect was that his

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Speaker 1: name was Joseph. The police ultimately believed five children, Grace, Luke, Sarah,

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Speaker 1: and two of the fifteen who came forward after the

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Speaker 1: media frenzy. They all had varying descriptions of Joseph, sometimes

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Speaker 1: saying he was white, sometimes black, and sometimes black with

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Speaker 1: white spots. One of the children identified a white man

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Speaker 1: whose name was not Joseph, as the perpetrator, but his

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Speaker 1: house did not match the description of the house the

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Speaker 1: children had given, so he was ruled out. Another white man,

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Speaker 1: the owner of a gay bar, was identified and also

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Speaker 1: ruled out. The police became frustrated with the children's muddled

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Speaker 1: and unreliable information, and while trying to get answers, they

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Speaker 1: asked leading repetitive questions designed to fit the narrative given

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Speaker 1: by the parents. So when you do start seeing these

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Speaker 1: media reports, then it becomes it starts becoming an actual situation.

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Speaker 2: I think when it first hit me was the day

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Speaker 2: that they are rest at me in front of my kids.

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Speaker 1: The arrest happened six months after the alleged crimes took place,

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Speaker 1: on November tenth, nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 2: They came to my parents' home and it was like

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Speaker 2: five cop cars and they handcuffed me in front of

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Speaker 2: my children. That's something they should never have had to

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Speaker 2: worry about, and that's something that I never should have

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Speaker 2: had to worry about.

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Speaker 1: Eventually, police also settled on their second suspect, a thirty

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Speaker 1: nine year old black man named Joseph Allen, who was

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Speaker 1: being investigated for an unrelated crime. Nancy remembers seeing his

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Speaker 1: picture in the news before they were both arrested.

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Speaker 2: And that was the first time that I actually ever

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Speaker 2: seen Joseph Allen. I remember calling Jack Bradley, my attorney

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Speaker 2: at the time, and I was like, oh my god, Jack,

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Speaker 2: who is the sky? I don't even know who the

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Speaker 2: sky is? And he said, well, they're trying to say

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Speaker 2: that this was your boyfriend. I said, I don't know

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Speaker 2: who this man is. I've never even met this man before.

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Speaker 1: Nancy was charged with multiple counts of rape.

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember if they even said anything to me.

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Speaker 2: I mean, at this point, I think I just kind

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Speaker 2: of like just blanked out because they you know, they

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Speaker 2: handcuffed me.

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Speaker 4: They took me down to the police station.

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Speaker 2: They put me in a holding cell, and I can

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Speaker 2: remember one of the detectives come up to the holding

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Speaker 2: cell and he just gave me this really nasty look

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Speaker 2: and he said, you'll get what you deserve and he

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Speaker 2: walked away. And you know what, I'm sitting in there,

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Speaker 2: I'm I'm just I'm crying. I don't know what to do.

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Speaker 2: You know, they just let me lay there for hours

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Speaker 2: and hours and hours. I'm this just this still bed, nothing,

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Speaker 2: just a plain still bed. They just let me lay

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Speaker 2: there for hours and hours and hours.

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Speaker 1: The trial started in July of nineteen ninety four. The

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Speaker 1: prosecutor was Jonathan Rosenbaum. He called Margie Grondin along with

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Speaker 1: a few other parents to testify as to what they

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Speaker 1: heard and saw from the children. He also called a

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Speaker 1: bus aid who said she had previously seen Joseph Allen

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Speaker 1: with Nancy during her bus route. He also presented four

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Speaker 1: of the five children who said they were molested. One

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Speaker 1: of them said on the stand the abuse never happened,

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Speaker 1: but the other three went into detail when.

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Speaker 6: Talking about the sexual allegations. It's the sort of things

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Speaker 6: that like a kid who doesn't actually know about sexual

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Speaker 6: interactions might say when someone says, what happened to you

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Speaker 6: down there?

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Speaker 1: This is Mark Gotsey, a professor of law at the

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Speaker 1: University of Cincinnati College of Law and director of the

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Speaker 1: Ohio Innocence Project. He says the kid's stories were not

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Speaker 1: only inconsistent with each other and with the previous statements,

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Speaker 1: but that they were also obviously made up, so.

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Speaker 6: They would say things like, you know, they stuck sticks

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Speaker 6: up our butt, they make us drink pee. This is

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Speaker 6: like the sort of ridiculous things that three and four

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Speaker 6: year olds when they're doing bathroom talk talk about.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it was just ridiculous, you know, to sit

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Speaker 2: there and watch these little kids talk about something that

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Speaker 2: they didn't even know what they were talking.

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Speaker 6: About, including things like I was tied up to a

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Speaker 6: tree out on a busy street and I was naked,

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Speaker 6: and I was tied up all day long. Like any

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Speaker 6: kid that's like four years old is going to be

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Speaker 6: naked and tied to a tree right by a busy

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Speaker 6: road all day and somebody's not going to call the police,

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Speaker 6: and no one's going to have any memory of this,

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Speaker 6: you know, just very bizarre type things.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sitting there listening to this like, are

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Speaker 2: you kidding me? I mean, are you really kidding me?

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Speaker 4: This? Where's this shit coming from? Can I cuss? Because

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Speaker 4: I have a bet? I'm sorry.

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Speaker 2: I get when I start getting talking about it, I get,

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Speaker 2: really I can say some pretty horrible words.

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Speaker 1: Mark understands why Nancy is frustrated.

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Speaker 6: The thing that's difficult about this case is that it's

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Speaker 6: hard to imagine how bad the defense attorney did.

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Speaker 1: The defense attorney was Jack Bradley. Mark says that Bradley

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Speaker 1: did a horrible job at presenting evidence to disprove the allegations.

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Speaker 6: There are things that you just can't get past that

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Speaker 6: prove this did not happen, and they were all either

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Speaker 6: not introduced or ignored. It was like a perfect storm.

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Speaker 6: For example, on the day in question, and every day

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Speaker 6: there was a babysitter in the back of the bus

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Speaker 6: who was willing to testify I was back there. There

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Speaker 6: was never a day where I got taken to some

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Speaker 6: boyfriend of Nancy's house and these kids were molested. Of course,

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Speaker 6: not right, and this person was not called as a witness, Like,

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Speaker 6: how can you make this up? There were attendance records

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Speaker 6: showing that the kids were there on the day in question,

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Speaker 6: and in fact, the kids who were part of this

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Speaker 6: allegation and testified at trial were never all absent on

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Speaker 6: the same day.

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Speaker 3: Was that brought up at trial?

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Speaker 1: Oh, when Bradley called Nancy to testify, she said she

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Speaker 1: had never seen Joseph Allen in her life. He also

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Speaker 1: called a transportation manager from a local County agency who

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Speaker 1: testified that they checked Nancy's bus mileage and did not

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Speaker 1: detect any side trips, but no documents were entered into

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Speaker 1: evidence or shown to the jury.

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Speaker 6: It doesn't matter if you think the allegations, it doesn't

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Speaker 6: matter if they're ludicrous. If you've got evidence showing it

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Speaker 6: didn't happen, you still got to introduce it. The defense

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Speaker 6: attorney didn't introduce any of it, and to evidence, I

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Speaker 6: think he thought there's no way there's going to be

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Speaker 6: a conviction.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that was like a fog, sitting in this

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Speaker 2: trial by a man that I didn't even know, being

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Speaker 2: falsely accused of molesting children, having my family sit in

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Speaker 2: a courtroom and listened to this appalling shit that was

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Speaker 2: coming out of their mouth lies and the people getting

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Speaker 2: on standing lie in and just.

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Speaker 3: Did you think that you would be convicted?

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Speaker 2: No, no, there's no way.

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Speaker 4: I thought there's no way.

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Speaker 1: But on August fourth, nineteen ninety four, Nancy was convicted

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Speaker 1: of all charges. She was sentenced to thirty to ninety

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Speaker 1: years in prison.

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Speaker 2: And I can remember Jonathan Rosenbob making a smirk ass

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Speaker 2: face that he always did, and I lunged toward the

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Speaker 2: table I remember that Jack. I remember Jack pulling me

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Speaker 2: back and then them taking me down to the holding cell.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I felt like I was like, it was

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Speaker 2: just so unreal. I'm sorry, I don't need to cry.

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Speaker 2: It's so hard to try to relive this.

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Speaker 1: Nancy's daughter, Courtney, who was fourteen at the time, also

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Speaker 1: remembers that moment herd was convicted. She and her siblings

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Speaker 1: weren't allowed in the courtroom, so she was in the

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Speaker 1: hallway of the courthouse watching the trial on TV.

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Speaker 4: I remember watching it going dumbfounded, right, like what is

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Speaker 4: going on?

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Speaker 5: And I remember like all the newspapers, you know, the

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Speaker 5: reporters and the TV stations and they're all flashing, and

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Speaker 5: I remember screaming at Margie and going are you happy now?

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Speaker 4: The B word?

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Speaker 5: And the next day, I know, I'm being like pulled

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Speaker 5: away and she's like, your mother did this, you know,

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Speaker 5: and I'm like, no, she did it, but you know,

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Speaker 5: they pulled me out, and then I just remember sitting

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Speaker 5: there going, what's gonna happen to us?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: After the convictions, Margie Grondin, along with several other parents,

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Speaker 1: sued the Lorraine County Head Start program for damages. They

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Speaker 1: won their cases and settled for one point five million

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Speaker 1: dollars each.

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Speaker 6: So in the eighties and nineties we went through this

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Speaker 6: era where there were a couple famous cases where individuals

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Speaker 6: claimed that their very young children had been sexually abused

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Speaker 6: in daycare set had some sort of deep pockets behind them,

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Speaker 6: like head Start, federally funded places, you could get some

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Speaker 6: sort of big settlement. It was like part of the

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Speaker 6: Satanic panic where the parents who would be able to

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Speaker 6: draw up these charges were making millions.

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Speaker 1: The phrase satanic panic came about because, in addition to molestations,

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Speaker 1: children sometimes also described satanic rituals, which is flying through

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Speaker 1: the air and other bizarre events. One of the most

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Speaker 1: notorious examples is the McMartin case. In the early nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 1: members of the McMartin family, who operated a preschool in

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Speaker 1: Manhattan Beach, California, were charged with hundreds of acts of

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Speaker 1: sexual abuse involving children under their care. The story set

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Speaker 1: off a national media frenzy.

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Speaker 6: It was like this hysteria that was like whipped up that,

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Speaker 6: Oh my god, all these little kids are being molested

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Speaker 6: by these daycare centers. This is like, you know, a pandemic.

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Speaker 6: This is a huge problem that's going on in sweeping

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Speaker 6: the country.

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Speaker 1: The McMartin case was ultimately dismissed seven years later, but

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Speaker 1: not before dozens of similar, unfounded lawsuits had erupted back

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Speaker 1: in the nineties, even the eighties. Were you aware of

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Speaker 1: any other cases like yours, like specifically this McMartin case

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Speaker 1: is a really famous one.

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Speaker 4: No, No, I never, you know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I was too busy being a mom and

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Speaker 2: doing what I was doing to you know, really wasn't

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Speaker 2: into the news and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: After her sentencing, Nancy was sent to Marysville Reformatory Prison

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Speaker 1: in Ohio.

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Speaker 4: I think the first two years I cried myself to

441
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 4: sleep every night.

442
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 3: So, Courtney, did you stay close with your mom?

443
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 4: Oh?

444
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, We talked whenever she could afford to, and it

445
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 5: got easier when I had a job so we could

446
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 5: send to her. Buddy somebody would always take us down,

447
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 5: you know, like it was like a monthly thing. And

448
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 5: then when we got old enough when we could go ourselves.

449
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 5: I mean there was times that I took friends with

450
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 5: me so they could meet her.

451
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:31,959
Speaker 3: What is seeing your mom in prison?

452
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 4: Like, No, it's not a fun, enjoyable experience.

453
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 5: So it really was never a pleasant experience, but at

454
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,640
Speaker 5: least we were able to go see her.

455
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: Eventually. Nancy felt some joy when she joined the prison's

456
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 1: horticulture program.

457
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,719
Speaker 2: Like that was my saving grace. I mean, honestly, I

458
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 2: did this program for nine years, and then the man

459
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 2: who ran the program asked me if I would stay

460
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 2: on of his aid, and so I would be the

461
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 2: one that they would let go in the greenhouse and just.

462
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 4: Wadder all the flowers. I can remember just.

463
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 2: Putting my headphones on and just going there and just

464
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 2: thinking I was just in a whole different place.

465
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: After Mark and the Ohio Innocence Project took on her case,

466
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: things started to turn around for Nancy. In two thousand

467
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: and nine, a new state law in Ohio required Nancy

468
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 1: to be resentenced. Mark and his team petitioned the court

469
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: arguing there was not enough evidence for a conviction, and

470
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,719
Speaker 1: Judge James Burge agreed. So Nancy's conviction was vacated and

471
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 1: she went home and.

472
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 4: I thought, oh my god, this is fine. This nightmare

473
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 4: is finally over. It's finally over.

474
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: But thirty days later, the state appealed the ruling and

475
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: Nancy's conviction was restored. She didn't return to prison, though

476
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: her hearing was delayed for two years, and during that time,

477
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: Nancy tried to resume a semblance of normalcy.

478
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 3: So what was picking up the pieces of your life?

479
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 2: Like the first five years, I was home, Like I

480
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 2: wouldn't go anywhere without anybody. Somebody had to be with

481
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 2: me at all times, because I don't know how I

482
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 2: would react as have somebody come up and say something

483
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 2: really negative to me. I was already angry for all

484
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 2: these years that I spent in prison and fighting this

485
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 2: case for so many years, and so the first five

486
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 2: years was really tough for me to you know, the

487
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 2: postmatic stress disorder, the anxiety, not knowing if I'm going

488
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 2: back to prisoners, staying home or whatever.

489
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: In the meantime, Mark and his team were focused on

490
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: filing a post conviction motion for clemency based on a

491
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: bombshell video they discovered that had been withheld by the prosecution.

492
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: The video showed the police lineup where the children from

493
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: head Start were being asked to identify their molester, and

494
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: what was actually going on in that room was shocking.

495
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 6: The parents were coaching during the I would just identification

496
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 6: and like taking the kid's hands and pointing them at

497
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 6: Joseph Allen.

498
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: The Ohio Innocence Project also compiled records showing the abuse

499
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: could not have occurred because all the children were in

500
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: school the day it supposedly happened, and they submitted affidavits

501
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: from Nancy's bus aides stating that they saw Nancy drop

502
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: the kids at school. On top of that, Mark and

503
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: his team also submitted to the court records showing she

504
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: was working two other jobs the afternoon in question. In

505
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: April of twenty twelve, Mark, along with the law firm Davis,

506
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: Polk and Wardwell, filed a petition for clemency with the

507
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: Ohio Parole Board and Governor John Kasick. In addition to

508
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: Nancy's innocence, the petition also argued that child psychologists have

509
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: since discredited the techniques used for questioning the children at the.

510
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 6: Time this was going on. What the common belief was

511
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 6: that if a kid is saying this, it must be true,

512
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 6: because why would a kid make this up? And you know,

513
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 6: from the mouths of babes, you know, like that's the

514
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 6: phrase that kids are always telling the truth because they

515
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 6: don't know to lie yet, when in reality, when they're

516
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 6: being coached or when an adult is trying to get

517
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 6: them to say something. They're very adaptable and they're very

518
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 6: easy to manipulate and get to say what the adult

519
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 6: wants them to say. You know, children will come to

520
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 6: believe what they're being told over and over again and

521
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 6: what they're being coached to believe. And that's well established

522
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 6: in the psychological literature. And now, you know, decades later,

523
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,719
Speaker 6: when the smoke is cleared, we realized that this was

524
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 6: most of these people are actually innocent. A lot of

525
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 6: these cases were drummed up for people who were, you know,

526
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 6: seeking to sue and get monetary damages, and that's exactly

527
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 6: what Nancy Smith got unfortunately wrapped up in.

528
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: In twenty thirteen, Nancy was finally resentenced to twelve years

529
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: and having already served fourteen, she was granted time served,

530
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: but she was still not exonerated of the charges, meaning

531
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: to the rest of the world, Nancy was still a

532
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: con child rapist. Fast forward to twenty twenty one, when

533
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: there was a changing of the guard in Lorraine County.

534
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 6: We had an open minded prosecutor who was going to

535
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 6: take a second look at it.

536
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: The new prosecutor, JD. Tomlinson actually started his own investigation

537
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: into Nancy's case in conjunction with Mark and his team.

538
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: This was promising, and then late one night, Mark was

539
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: working in his office when something completely unexpected happened.

540
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 6: I get a call from Gino Grundin.

541
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: Dino was the son of Margie Grundin and Grace's older brother.

542
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 6: Who said, I've got a story for you. Like I

543
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 6: have a daughter now, this is the same age, and

544
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 6: Margie Grundan is her grandmother, my mother, and Margie Grundin

545
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 6: is manipulating her the same way I saw Margie Grunden

546
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 6: manipulate my little sister when I was a kid. She's

547
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 6: doing the same thing again. She's like coach my own kid.

548
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 6: And so I became concerned that Margie Gardner was trying

549
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 6: to set up the same scenario that she had done

550
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 6: back in the nineties, where she was able to get

551
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 6: money by using her own child, but this time doing

552
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 6: the grandchild.

553
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: The authorities confirmed Dino's allegations by catching Margie on a

554
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: nanny cam.

555
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 6: They found that the child was being coached when they

556
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 6: left the room, but they left the tape recorder on

557
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 6: and she was like practicing and practice, crying and stuff.

558
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 6: This is what exactly what Dino Grundan was telling us

559
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 6: was going on.

560
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: This revelation, along with an affidavit from the original investigator,

561
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: Detective Cantu, was enough for Prosecutor Tomlinson. After his own

562
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: five month investigation, Tomlinson was sure of Nancy's innocence and

563
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: he moved to have the charges dismissed, and at a

564
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: hearing on February twenty fifth, twenty twenty two, he offered

565
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: a public apology.

566
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 7: Mister s that I apologize to you, especially for what

567
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 7: was done to you and to your fans as a

568
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 7: result of this ill conceived prosecution. I'll behalf to the

569
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 7: state of Ohio. I wish nothing but the best for

570
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 7: you Andrew lovemost and I hope that in the future

571
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 7: only happiness and good fortunately about you run right, I

572
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 7: would be moving this honorable course dismiss these matters.

573
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: That day, Judge Chris Cook vacated Nancy's convictions for the

574
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: final time. Today, Nancy is still living in Lorain, Ohio.

575
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: She's a dog groomer and volunteers at her church to

576
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: give back to people less fortunate. She still doesn't like

577
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: to go places alone, but she's received much more support

578
00:33:58,880 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: than she.

579
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 2: Expected I would have people come up and say, can

580
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 2: I just give you a hug? Or come up to

581
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 2: me and say, we're just so glad. We always believed

582
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,879
Speaker 2: in you. We knew that this was bogus. We knew

583
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 2: that this case was not true.

584
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: So Courtney, why do you think Margie Grundan did this money?

585
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 5: I think one hundred and time percent, she concocted a

586
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 5: game for money, and that's why she did this.

587
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 4: You know, to me, she's a narcissist.

588
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: What does that feel like that your mom's life was

589
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: worth less than some money?

590
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 4: I think it's that's horrible.

591
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 5: But you know, the older you get, the more mature

592
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 5: you get, you know, you really start understanding that there

593
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 5: are truly people out there that don't care, and they

594
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 5: don't care what they put other people through, and they're

595
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,879
Speaker 5: gonna do whatever they want to get whatever they want.

596
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 5: And then this is just one of those cases.

597
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 2: All it takes is one person, one person, a Margie

598
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 2: Grunted to do this to you, and before you know what,

599
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:03,839
Speaker 2: your life's just.

600
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 4: Gone from you.

601
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:12,760
Speaker 2: You know, I mean, one thing I can say today

602
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 2: is that I will never ever let somebody else do

603
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 2: this to me again. But know that I survived, and

604
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 2: I got through this with the grace of God. I

605
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 2: got through this with Mark Gatzi in the Instant Project.

606
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 2: I got through this with Judge Burge. I got through

607
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 2: this with JD. Tomlinson. And I'll continue to get through

608
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,280
Speaker 2: every obstacle that ever comes my way in life because

609
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 2: I know that I can, and I know that I can,

610
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 2: you know, continue not to live the best life that

611
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 2: I can do.

612
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 1: To help Ohio xuneries, Nancy suggests supporting the Phoenix Initiative,

613
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 1: which provides clothing, toes and other necessities to xoneries when

614
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,240
Speaker 1: they're released. Links to this and to the Ohio Innocence

615
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:17,240
Speaker 1: Project will be in our bio next time. On Wrongful

616
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: Conviction with Maggie Freeling, Tammy Vance she.

617
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 8: Was snoring really loud, and all of a sudden it stopped.

618
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 8: When I frigged out and I tell Lee, she's not breathing.

619
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 8: She's not breathing. They got on the phone with nine

620
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 8: one one and I administered CPR until the ambulance got there.

621
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. Please

622
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: support your local innocence organizations and go to the links

623
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 1: in our bio to see how you can help. I'd

624
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 1: like to thank our executive producers Jason Flamm and Kevin Wurtis,

625
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: as well as our senior producer, Annie Chelsea, producer Lyla Robae,

626
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: and sin and story editor Sonia Paul. The show is

627
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: edited and mixed by Annie Chelsea, with additional production by

628
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: Jeff Cliburn and Connor Hall. The music in this production

629
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be

630
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on

631
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,280
Speaker 1: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at Wrong Conviction,

632
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 1: as well as at Lava for Good. On all three platforms,

633
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: you can also follow me on both Instagram and Twitter

634
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a

635
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 1: production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal

636
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 1: Company Number one