1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: Dear Alana is released weekly and brought to you absolutely free. 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: But if you want to binge the whole season right now, 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus dot com or on 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,240 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. You also get exclusive bonus episodes throughout the season. 5 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: For more information, check out the show notes. Enjoy the episode. 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 2: The following episode contains references to suicide. If you or 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 2: someone you know is in need of help, please contact 8 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 2: the Suicide in Crisis Lifeline by dialing nine eight eight. 9 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:35,959 Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised. 10 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: After father Dave is reassigned, Alana gets even more involved 11 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: with her church, Saint Thom's. As Joyce remembers it, the 12 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: church invites a licensed therapist, a woman named Kate, to 13 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: offer low cost therapy to students. Alana, who's nineteen, eagerly 14 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: signs up. 15 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 3: When I first met Kate, I was shaking. I was desperate. 16 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 3: I was nervous. She stared at me blankly, yet attentively. 17 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 3: I couldn't speak. I'm sorry, I'm so nervous. Don't be sorry. 18 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 3: I know it's hard. I'm a stranger. But she wasn't 19 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 3: a stranger. She had the aura of a mother, my mother. 20 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 3: I wanted her to help catch my tears and collect them, 21 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 3: keep them tucked away deep into her bosom. I felt 22 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 3: deep shame. I could barely get the words out I 23 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 3: struggle with same sex attraction. She asked, if God could 24 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 3: take away your same sex attraction, would you ask him to? 25 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: From Tenderfoot TV, I'm Simon kent Fong and this is 26 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: Dear Alana, Part four Judo. I moved to New York 27 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: City after college to work at a Catholic media company 28 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: and Internet, a faith based NGO that lobbied at the 29 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: un Looking back, I was such a different person then, 30 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: but in some ways I haven't changed at all. I 31 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: was trying to find work that would help bring the 32 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: world closer to God. But the other reason I headed 33 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: to the Big Apple, the one I didn't say out loud, 34 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: was to find a therapist who could help me with 35 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: my same sex attractions. Unlike Alana, whose therapists kind of 36 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: fell into her lap through Saint Thom's, I had to 37 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: look a little harder. On the note that Father William 38 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: gave me when he told me these people will quote 39 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 1: fix you. He wrote down the name of a website. 40 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: That website was narth dot com. Which stood for the 41 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality. It was 42 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: the leading organization in the nineties and mid odts promoted 43 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: sexual orientation change efforts, what we now call conversion therapy. 44 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 1: What Father William didn't know was that I'd already been 45 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 1: to narth's website a thousand times before, I'd read every page. 46 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 4: We believe that homosexuality is a symptom of early childhood trauma. 47 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 4: We get the client to address those traumas and they 48 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 4: will experience a diminishment in their same sex attraction. 49 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: That's Joseph Nicolosi, one of the founders of NARTH, who 50 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: I'll talk about later. Before I go any further, I 51 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: want to make it clear that all of my experiences 52 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: with this kind of therapy were self initiated. Not even 53 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: my parents pressured me to do it. And while obviously 54 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: I was influenced by my church, by the time Father 55 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: William told me to get help, I'd already gone through 56 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: dozens of websites and books on the subject on my own. 57 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: He merely confirmed what I was already determined to do 58 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: to be fixed, because now my vocation depended on it. 59 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: You see, I couldn't be a priest if I kept 60 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: having these tendencies. In two thousand and five, the Vatican 61 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: published its guidelines on seminary admissions. In it, they emphatically 62 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: said that those with deep seated homosexual tendencies should not 63 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: be admitted. Only if you grew out of this quote 64 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: transitory problem. Could you join in practice? Many gay men 65 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: lie and become priests anyways, But I didn't want to cheat. 66 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: I wanted to follow the Vatican guidelines and get over 67 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: this quote transitory problem. How is that going to happen? 68 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: Thankfully there was a solution. Conversion therapy. Conversion therapy refers 69 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: to the controversial practice of trying to change or convert 70 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: one's sexual orientation to go from gata strait or gay 71 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: to less gay. It can look like many different things, psychotherapy, healing, prayer, 72 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: even twelve steps, and it's not always blatantly. 73 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 4: We're allowing people to be who they want to be. 74 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 4: We're not imposing, we're not forcing people to change. We're 75 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 4: just exploring. 76 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: Again, Joseph Nicolosi, using a free will argument to defend 77 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: the practice. When some people hear the term conversion therapy, 78 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: they may think of forced, gruesome practices like electroshock and lobotomies. 79 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: Those practices certainly existed, but conversion therapy today looks a 80 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: lot different, and both Alana and I pursued it to 81 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 1: follow what we felt was God's will. 82 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 3: The reason I thought out therapy is because I need 83 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 3: to get this under control if I want to be 84 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 3: a nun or a wife. 85 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: Conversion therapy today is also a lot more common than 86 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: you'd think. An estimated seventy thousand youth in the US 87 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: will go through some form of conversion therapy before they 88 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: turn eighteen, And a big reason why it's still happening 89 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,359 Speaker 1: is because, as you'll see for Alana and me, it 90 00:05:55,400 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: can be compelling to a young person who's desperate to change. 91 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 1: So it's two thousand and eight and I'm in New 92 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: York City. It's the middle of the Great Recession, and 93 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: I'd just saved up enough money to be able to 94 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: afford to see a therapist for the first time. But 95 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 1: who could help me? I couldn't just walk into any 96 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: therapist's office. I wanted to be fixed, not encouraged, and 97 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: I knew that most therapists would be affirming of my 98 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: sexual orientation and wouldn't agree to help me change it. 99 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: So I was kind of scared, what if a therapist 100 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: tried to steer me in a direction that went against 101 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: my faith? Luckily I found someone. He was the go 102 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: to Catholic therapist for conservative Catholics in the Tri State area. 103 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: Even Mother Teresa sent her nuns to see him. On 104 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: his website, he explicitly embraced the teachings of the Catholic 105 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: Church and also talked about the work of Narth in 106 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: one of his interviews. So he passed my litmus test. 107 00:06:54,560 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 1: I eagerly scheduled an appointment. In our first session, I 108 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: sat across from him in a worn leather armchair in 109 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: his dim Manhattan office. He was heavy set and in 110 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: his mid forties and spoke with a kind of Jersey confidence. 111 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: My palms were sweating. He asked me about my relationship 112 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: with my father. If I'd grown up with a strong 113 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: role model who rough housed with me and told me 114 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: I had what it took to be a man. No, 115 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: I said, my dad was your typical Asian dad, kind 116 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: of distant and strict, non confrontational, always busy with work. 117 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: He nodded. He asked me if I ever felt distant 118 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: around other boys growing up. Yes, I said, I'd been 119 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: bullied and didn't have many friends, boys or girls. He 120 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: asked me about my body and if I felt disconnected 121 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: from it in any way. Well, yeah, there were many 122 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: things I hated about my body. He then asked me 123 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: what I wanted. I don't want to have same sex 124 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: attraction anymore. Is this something you can help me with? 125 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 5: He nodded. 126 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: The idea of treating homosexuality goes back well over one 127 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: hundred years. The original term homosexual was defined squarely as 128 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: a disease, and this idea that gay people were sick 129 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: in some way dominated the public consciousness well into the sixties. 130 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 6: What Jimmy didn't know was that Ralph was sick, a 131 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 6: sickness that was not visible, like smallpox, but no less 132 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 6: dangerous and contagious, A sickness of the mind. You see, 133 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 6: Ralph was a homosexual, a person who demands an intimate 134 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 6: relationship with members of their own sex. 135 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: A dangerous and contagious sickness. With this fear in the air, 136 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: it's no surprise that in nineteen fifty two, the American 137 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: Psychiatrics so Uociation or the APA, listed homosexuality as well 138 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: a mental disorder. And what do you do with a 139 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: mental disorder, a sickness, a disease, you try to cure it. 140 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 1: So what am I supposed to do now? I'm so 141 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: d are you? 142 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 7: You start masturbating with your homosexual image there, but at 143 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 7: that point of inevitability switch over to the female picture. 144 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 7: I mean, maybe nothing will happen, maybe you won't have 145 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 7: a climax, but you probably will, and I want. 146 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 5: To know about it. 147 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: Gay people became guinea pigs. Scientists experimented with everything from 148 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: shock and hormone therapies to testicular transplants, hysterectomies, and institutionalization. 149 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: Behavioral psychologists gave clients nausea inducing drugs while playing audio 150 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: of gay sex. They tried all kinds of things, but 151 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: the biggest influence on conversion therapy came at the turn 152 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: of the century from Sigmund Freud. In short, his theory 153 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: was that our psyches were shaped by our childhoods and 154 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: our parents, and his contemporaries were fascinated by the prospect 155 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: of using his psychoanalytic techniques to uncover how childhood traumas 156 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: and parenting patterns might hold the key to curing this disease. 157 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 8: I do not believe that it is possible to produce 158 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 8: a homosexual if the father is a constructive father to 159 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 8: his son. 160 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: That's Irving Bieber. Together with other New York psychotherapists like 161 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: Charles Sockerati's, he posited that homosexuality was caused by a 162 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: distant father and what he called a close binding mother. 163 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: Here he is in a nineteen sixty eight CBS News documentary. 164 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 8: Doctor Charles Soccerreats is a New York psychoanalyst a clinical 165 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 8: assistant professor of psychiatry at the Albert Einstein School of Medicine. Here, 166 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 8: lecturing to a group of resident psychiatrists on homosexuality. 167 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 6: I was wondering if you think that there any quotes 168 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 6: happy homosexuals. The fact that somebody is homosexual automatically rules 169 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 6: out the possibility that he will remain happy for long. 170 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: In my opinion, the belief that homosexuality was a kind 171 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 1: of illness, compulsion, or parenting disaster dominated the public. 172 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,599 Speaker 8: Most Americans are repelled by the mere notion of homosexuality. 173 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 8: The CBS News survey shows that two out of three 174 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 8: Americans look upon homosexuals with disgust, discomfort, or fear. One 175 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 8: out of ten says hatred. A vast majority believe that 176 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 8: homosexuality is an illness, and this. 177 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: View had a real impact on society. If you were 178 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: found out to be gay, you'd be fired from your job, 179 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: face interrogation and jail time, and denied entry into the 180 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: United States. 181 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 8: The dilemma of the homosexual by the law, that is, 182 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 8: a criminal, shunned by employers, rejected by heterosexual society, a 183 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 8: displaced person. 184 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: The cracks were beginning to form. By the late forties. 185 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 1: Research showed that homosexuality was far more common than previously thought, 186 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: and as the gay rights movement began to take off 187 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: alongside the growing consciousness of gay people in society, the 188 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: APA eventually removed homosexuality from its list of mental disorders, 189 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: first partially in nineteen seventy four and then completely in 190 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven, a few years after I was born. 191 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: For a deeper dive into the fascinating string of events 192 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: that led to this landmark decision, I recommend the documentary Cured, 193 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: as well as the episode titled eighty one Words from 194 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: This American Life. But conversion therapy wasn't just going to 195 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: go away soon. A new wave of conversion therapy research 196 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: and practice would begin a wave that would eventually come 197 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: for me. Alana's journals inspired me to dig up my 198 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: own notebooks. I'm looking at my notes from my therapy sessions. 199 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: I remember being such an A plus student that I 200 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: transcribed every session, sometimes sitting in the stairwell after my 201 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: appointment to write it all down so that I could 202 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: study it later. I begin my notebook with a prayer, 203 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: Dear Lord, this is my new workbook to work on 204 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: my SSA and the healing and recovery of my underlying issues. 205 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: SSA same sex attraction. It sounds very clinical, but that's 206 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: the point. For many Catholics and conservative Christians, same sex 207 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: attraction is the preferred word for homosexuality because other words 208 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: like gay are seen as reductive political labels used by 209 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: radical activists to hijack our identities. Instead, same sex attraction 210 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: describes a condition like psoriasis or depression, something a person 211 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: struggles with but doesn't fully identify as. When I first 212 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: heard the term SSA, I remember feeling relieved. These attractions 213 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: I was starting to have towards the same sex didn't 214 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: mean I was gay like those people on the news 215 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: who were underwear dancing at the Prime. 216 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 5: I parayed. 217 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: Those people scared me. I wasn't gay like them, but 218 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: struggling with same sex attraction that fit better. A lot 219 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: of my early notes document my therapist's thoughts on the 220 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: importance of developmental milestones. Every boy needs to go through 221 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: certain stages when he's young, first looking up to a 222 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: strong and loving father and being told by that father 223 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: that he has what it takes to be a boy, 224 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: to be a friend, to play sports, etc. Then to fight, 225 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: to train, to test, to lead, then beauty and attraction 226 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: eventually to a woman, and lastly to be a wise 227 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: counselor what steps you missed out on you can't skip. 228 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: We must go back and experience those things. And my 229 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: relationship with my father played a central role in our sessions. 230 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 1: He asked me to think about the father I I 231 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: wished I had as a boy, that little boy inside 232 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: of me who longs for his dad. He's still there. Together, 233 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: my therapist and I will go and find that boy 234 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: and heal him. There was a lot I wished was 235 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: different about my dad. He was gruff and emotionally distant. 236 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: I was sensitive. We butted heads. I criticized him a lot. 237 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: He once locked me in the garage when I wouldn't 238 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: finish my supper. He was always working or sleeping. When 239 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: my therapist asked me if there was a moment growing 240 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: up when I felt the least connected to my dad, 241 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: one memory stuck out. When I was five or six, 242 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: my dad was obsessed with teaching me how to swim. 243 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: We signed up for parent child swim classes at the 244 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: community center, but I didn't want to go. It was cold, 245 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: it was one ore time, The change room smelled and 246 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: I would cry as we drove to the pool. When 247 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: it was time for the class to begin, I freaked out. 248 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: My dad commanded me to get into the water with him, 249 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: but I shook with fear and cried bitterly. I can't, 250 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: I want to go home. The more I cried, the 251 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: angrier he got his eyes burned with fire, and he'd 252 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: pull me into the pool. All I remember as I 253 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: entered the water was this primal fear, the sense that 254 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: I was going to die. I gripped onto my dad, 255 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: who pushed me away so that I could get used 256 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: to floating, but the panic took over, and I don't 257 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: know how long this went on for. When it was 258 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: all over and we were getting changed, my eyes raw 259 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: from tears and chlorine. My dad wouldn't talk to me. 260 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: His silence conveyed both embarrassment and frustration, and I dreaded 261 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: the following week when this would happen all over again. 262 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: You needed him to protect and encourage you, my therapist said, 263 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: but he didn't. This was a father wound, a wound 264 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: we must heal. It felt so good to be able 265 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: to talk about my childhood with some one, and all 266 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: of these ideas for my therapist connecting trauma to my 267 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: sexuality were really compelling to me. They weren't your typical 268 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: pray the gay away approaches, though many people still encounter those, 269 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: nor were they premised on the outdated idea that being 270 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: gay was a choice. Instead, these theories seemed really psychological 271 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: and appeared to map directly to my life. The person 272 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: most responsible for bringing a level of sophistication to conversion 273 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: therapy was this woman named Elizabeth Moberly. In the seventies, 274 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: while all the drama at the apadlisting homosexuality was going on, Moberly, 275 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: a quiet, bookish woman who had just graduated from Oxford, 276 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: decided to do some research on homosexuality. A lot of 277 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: her friends in the theology department were gay and she 278 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: wanted to better understand them. Here she is speaking at 279 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: a nineteen ninety eight conference organized by Fishnet Ministries. 280 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 9: I believe that homosexuality derives not from genetic or hormonal causes. 281 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 9: I believe it is linked with difficulties in the early 282 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 9: relationship with the same sex parents. The parental identification is 283 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 9: particularly conspicuous in a lesbian relationship. Typically there is a 284 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 9: search for a mother figure, even if this is unconscious, 285 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 9: so really the lesbian partnership has the character of a 286 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 9: mother daughter relationship. 287 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: Moberly cites this unresolved attachment to mom and dad as 288 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: the underlying need that the homosexual is subconsciously trying to 289 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:50,199 Speaker 1: resolve those unmet love needs. She thinks get transferred to 290 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: a same sex partner that the child will seek out 291 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: later in adulthood. The way my therapist described it to 292 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: me was that at puberty, my need for my dad 293 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: got a writis sized, but she goes further. 294 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 9: Same sex love is not a deviation from normality, but 295 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 9: an attempt to resume and continue the normal developmental process. 296 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 9: It's not an abnormal sexual drive, it's a normal developmental drive. 297 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 9: A reparative drive, a reparative attempt to make good developmental deficits. 298 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: She theorizes that by finding a same sex lover, the 299 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: homosexual person is subconsciously repairing a deficit in same sex 300 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: love that they never got from their parent, like a 301 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: body trying to heal itself. Her remember being drawn to 302 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: Moberly's reparative theory because she seemed to be suggesting that 303 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: my attractions weren't bad. In fact, Moberly spends a good 304 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: part of her talk scolding religious people for demonizing same 305 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: sex attractions that she says are at their root perfectly valid, 306 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: and then she's as something counterintuitive. 307 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 9: Same sex love is not the problem, but the solution. 308 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 9: Not the problem, but the solution. I really do think 309 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:17,439 Speaker 9: it's essential to get that person into therapy where they 310 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 9: can get a more intensified and focused experience of same 311 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 9: sex relating with somebody who is already fulfilled and secure 312 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 9: in their own same sex heterosexual identity. 313 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: Moberly's belief is that the way to heal the same 314 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: sex love deficit is through same sex connection, the non 315 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: Eurotic kind like when we were kids. By working with 316 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: a straight therapist of the same sex. The homosexual can 317 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 1: be healed of these mother or father wounds, have their 318 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: childhood needs met, and naturally become straight. At the time, 319 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: this all sounded plausible to me. Her theory seemed to 320 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 1: explain so much of my childhood. I didn't have a 321 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: great relationship with my dad, and others who since extended 322 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: Moberly's work have brought in the childhood trauma theory to 323 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: include not just the role of parents, but also peers. 324 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: Given that I was bullied for so long on the 325 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: schoolyard that totally checked out too. I never questioned whether 326 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: maybe my experiences were actually quite common for a lot 327 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: of kids. I was just happy to have an explanation 328 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,239 Speaker 1: for my SSA, and by working with my therapist, I 329 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 1: was determined to heal these wounds and resume my developmental 330 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: journey towards heterosexuality. At the end of Elizabeth Moberly's talk, 331 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: she takes questions from the audience. 332 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 7: My question is granted that I really believe the whole 333 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 7: framework and the whole everything you've been telling us. This 334 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 7: makes such sense psychologically, But I want to know what 335 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 7: are the bottom line results. How many people can you 336 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 7: give us? Percentages? Can you give us figures. Can you 337 00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 7: give us some kind of hope? But no matter. 338 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 9: I can give you a hope, but I can't give 339 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 9: you a head count. 340 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 4: Sorry, I'm loving for I love the idea, but I 341 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 4: need the results. 342 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 7: You see, I'm screaming for g Bill. 343 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 9: You go out and use these principles, and you come 344 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 9: back and you give me your headcount. 345 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: The reason Moberley can't answer this question is because she 346 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 1: was never a clinical practitioner. She had never tested out 347 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: her reparative theory on actual patients, but others soon would. 348 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: In the late eighties, once homosexuality was no longer officially 349 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: considered a mental disorder, practitioners who'd spent their careers trying 350 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: to treat homosexuality were outraged. They called the APA's decision 351 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,959 Speaker 1: a quote destructive and blind pursuit of political correctness, and 352 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: so Charles Charides, a Catholic, and his colleagues Joseph Nicolosi, 353 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: also Catholic, who you heard at the beginning of this episode, 354 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,400 Speaker 1: and Benjamin Kaufman, who was Jewish. The three of them 355 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: got together and started NARTH, the National Association for Research 356 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: and Therapy of Homosexuality. They published their own research and 357 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: started to bring Moberly's ideas into clinical practice. The establishment 358 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,959 Speaker 1: of NARTH injected new life into the conversion therapy movement. 359 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: Joseph Nicolosi would appear on news shows and Doctor Phil 360 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: Partner with Focus on the Family and advise Catholic and 361 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 1: Christian ministries on all things gay coming up. 362 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 4: He claims he's reversed homosexual tendencies and hundreds of his 363 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 4: patients through therapy. I have the belief that all people 364 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 4: are heterosexual in their nature, and that the particular trauma 365 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 4: creates the homosexual condition. 366 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: And they came up with a term that described their techniques. 367 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: They called it reparative therapy. You can see now where 368 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: that comes from. In fact, Elizabeth Moberly would later claim 369 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: that Joseph Nicolosi took credit for her ideas and they 370 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 1: publicly feuded over it. In the literature from the nineties onwards, 371 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: it was this kind of reparative therapy that captivated many 372 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: religious therapists like mine, eager to combine church teaching with psychology. 373 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: Since I had SSA, I clearly missed out on the 374 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: rights of passage that fathers normally give their sons, the 375 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: sorts of interactions that secured a sense of masculinity, so 376 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: my therapists would be stepping in to play that role. 377 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: He would become a sort of surrogate father to me. 378 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: He said, I'm intelligent, articulate, blessed with many artistic gifts, 379 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: and these are good, but we need to work on 380 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: my masculinity. For the next year, my therapist would teach 381 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,959 Speaker 1: me about how men move their bodies and take up space, 382 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: how men insalt each other. As a way of bonding. 383 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: We practiced what he called verbal judo so that I 384 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: could learn how to spar with words and insult other men. 385 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: We role played situations from my childhood where I was 386 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: bullied and he had me fight back and tell my 387 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: bullies off. It wasn't easy, and honestly it felt a 388 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 1: little awkward at times, but I took it all very seriously. 389 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 1: There was no shortcut to growth. Looks like we had 390 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: a few months focused on inner child healing and this 391 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: is a letter I wrote to myself as my inner child. 392 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: Dear big Simon, I want to tell you about a 393 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 1: big hurt. For the longest time, I felt insecure and 394 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 1: not confident. Playing red ass at recess. That's a game 395 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: we used to play in elementary school where we'd have 396 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: to throw a tennis ball against a wall, and if 397 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: you missed, you'd get a letter until it's spelt red ass, 398 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: at which point you'd lose and have a ball whipped 399 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: at your ass. I always dreaded throwing the ball from 400 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 1: far away because I can't throw that. I remember running 401 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: to the wall to not get a letter, and then 402 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 1: I slipped on a patch of ice and smashed my 403 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: face against the brick wall. My glasses were destroyed and 404 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: I was bleeding for weeks. I had a nasty scab 405 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: on the right side of my face, and the other 406 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: boys teased me even more. I remember feeling so alone 407 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 1: and sad and so numb. No one cared. I wanted 408 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 1: to hide at home. I think this was the last 409 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: straw that made me give up on ever fitting in. 410 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: From now on, I just have to figure it out 411 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: by myself. To repair some of these same sex masculinity 412 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 1: wounds around sports, my therapist encouraged me to take up 413 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: a sport. I chose judo, maybe because of all the 414 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: verbal judo we were practicing, but also because I thought 415 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: it looked cool, so I gave it a shot. I 416 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: showed up at the dojo, and they paired me up 417 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: with some went at my skill level, which for me 418 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: meant the eleven year old boy or the middle aged woman. 419 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: Those were my options. Week after week, I'd get thrown 420 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: on the mat, get up, and get thrown again. It's 421 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: something you have to get used to in judo. One 422 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,400 Speaker 1: time I dislocated my toe. Some days I'd throw up 423 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: from nerves. And the guys there, they were like comically attractive, 424 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: Like why are all the men in judo so good looking? 425 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: So he says, when the attraction comes, don't fight it, 426 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 1: accept it. There's something behind it. Take a pause, and 427 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: instead of freaking out, ask yourself why. What are the 428 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: hidden immediate thoughts that come to mind? How do I 429 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 1: feel about myself? What do I believe about this person? 430 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: Do I feel small and weak? Do I think he 431 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: has a better body. My therapist called this the exotic 432 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: becomes erotic theory. Because I was so cut off from 433 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: my masculinity, I saw men as the other and he said, 434 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: contributed to their eroticization since we're naturally attracted to opposites. 435 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: So I had to demystify these men by confronting them platonically, 436 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: especially the ones I felt attracted to. Remember, same sex 437 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: love is the solution, not the problem. There was this 438 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: one guy, Patrick, probably in his thirties, who I felt 439 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: extremely attracted to. This is an entry about Patrick. It 440 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: took a risk, but I started talking with Patrick, asking 441 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: him where he lives. He offered me a ride. I accepted. 442 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: Once we started talking, it broke the ice, and what 443 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: I thought that he thinks I'm a loser just didn't 444 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: seem true. In the car, he said he was into 445 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: computers as a kid, but didn't stay in it and 446 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: regrets it. He doesn't even know how to download pictures. 447 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: He's the leader of his police squad, climbing towers, etc. 448 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: He wants to retire in five years then open a 449 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: bar or a hot dog stand. So now the mystique 450 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: is broken. He's a man trying to live just like me, 451 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: and he seems to like me too. He called me 452 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: brother as I was leaving, Lord, thank you for arranging this. 453 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: I excitedly told my therapist about all of this, and 454 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: he was overjoyed. He said that this guy wouldn't affirm 455 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: me as a brother if he didn't see masculinity in me. 456 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: The therapy was working with time. I believed my attractions 457 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: would go away. September eighteenth, two thousand and eight, I 458 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: asked my therapist how am I progressing. He said, you 459 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: have a high probability to change between one and five years. 460 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: Your ssay is a symptom of a deeper problem. You 461 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: are a heterosexual man with a homosexual problem. He told 462 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: the story of one of his clients who began therapy 463 00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: five years ago. Today he's dating. The idea of dating 464 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: women made me light headed and kind of nauseous. I'd 465 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: asked women out before earlier in college, when I was 466 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: trying to see if maybe I could make it work. 467 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: Usually we started out as friends, but whenever we'd get 468 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: too close or I felt like she was falling for me, 469 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: I'd back out. At the time, in the Catholic circles 470 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: I ran in, this was seen as virtuous behavior, a 471 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: sign of sexual purity. Restraint was holy. All that would 472 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: be required for me to change within one to five 473 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: years would be to grow into my masculinity. So I 474 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: returned every week, hopeful that my day of healing would come. 475 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 3: Kate said that my thoughts and attractions were not bad, 476 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 3: but if I acted on them, my soul would start 477 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 3: to wither away. They said I was making too big 478 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 3: a deal out of it, that it wasn't my true identity. 479 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 3: It was only a small part of me. It was 480 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 3: just a disorder. I was so confused. 481 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: I'm with Joyce flipping through Alana's journals. It's uncanny how 482 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: Alana is reiterating the same conversion therapy talking points that 483 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: I got from my therapist. I ask Joyce if she 484 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: knew about Alana's therapist, Kate, and what was going on. 485 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 8: I remember I went to I met Kate. 486 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 10: I went to the student center where all these kids 487 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 10: would meet with Kate and sign up and they paid 488 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 10: very short amount, but they paid. 489 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 5: You know you did. 490 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, she's Catholic therapist. Went to Institute for Psychological Sciences, 491 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: which is this Catholic psychology program that is run by 492 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: it started by a religious supporter. About the Legionarias of. 493 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 5: Christ and their anti ka I mean, they're. 494 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: They're part of this like cluster of many different institutions 495 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: and organizations that are faithful to the teachings of the Church. 496 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 5: Right, So. 497 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, their training and their how they are told to 498 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: counsel people will be within those frameworks. It's hard for 499 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: me to answer her with a definitive yes. Here because 500 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church doesn't see itself as anti gay people. 501 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: It sees itself as anti gay sex, which it considers 502 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: an elective choice, a sin, something separate from the person. 503 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: Hate the sin, not the sinner. This is why so 504 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: much of the guidance I got in the church was 505 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: framed as protecting me from going to Hell, in the 506 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: same way that a parent would see denying their child 507 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: candy for breakfast as the most loving thing to do. 508 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: But as I see the confusion that this kind of 509 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: council had on Alana, I begin to wonder if maybe 510 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: she was right to feel like this didn't add up, 511 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: that compartmentalizing our sexuality in this way might be what's 512 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: actually wrong. When Joyce first met Alana's therapist, Kate, she 513 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: remembers Kate reiterating that as a therapist, she stands by 514 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: every teaching of the Catholic Church. But Joyce clearly had 515 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: no idea what that implied and didn't know about the 516 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: messages Alana was getting in therapy. When I was looking 517 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: for a therapist, I knew that faithful to the teachings 518 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: of the Catholic Church was code for a conservative therapist 519 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: who would support my efforts to change my sexuality. It 520 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: was a dog whistle that signaled that they'd likely be 521 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: open to conversion therapy theories. In the summer of twenty ten, 522 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: I went home to visit my family. We did the 523 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: usual family barbecues with my grandma and cousins. My younger cousin, Vivian, 524 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: was home from college for the summer, and we took 525 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: a car ride just me and her to pick something 526 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: up from the store. We were always close and joked around. 527 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: She was the comedian of the family, but that day 528 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: in the car, she was unusually quiet and kind of sullen. 529 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: I looked over from the steering wheel and asked her, 530 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: what was up. Nothing, She said, come on, tell me 531 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,919 Speaker 1: what's going on. We pulled into the driveway, and that's 532 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: when something happened that I was not expecting. She came 533 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,399 Speaker 1: out to me. I stopped in my tracks. Although her 534 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: news wasn't a huge surprise to me, I knew I 535 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: needed to say something, but how I had the opportunity 536 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 1: to be vulnerable with her in that moment, to share 537 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: with her my own struggle, but I was too ashamed 538 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: to admit it. I had worked so hard to get 539 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 1: to where I was with my therapy. I was so 540 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: close to being fixed that the thought of me opening 541 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: up to her and coming out was not on the table. 542 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: I chose my words carefully. Vivian, you do know that 543 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: you don't have to be gay, right She looked at 544 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 1: me and tears began to fall down her cheeks. Vivian, 545 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: there are resources out there. From what I've read, homosexuality 546 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 1: is a developmental delay caused by some sort of childhood trauma. 547 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: You don't have to go down the route that the 548 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,399 Speaker 1: gay activists want you to go down. There are other 549 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: options like therapy. Vivian turned to look out the window. 550 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,399 Speaker 1: She wiped her face, and then she said something I'll 551 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: never forget. You will never understand what it's like to 552 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,240 Speaker 1: be me. You can go get married and have kids 553 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: and live your normal life, but I can never have that, 554 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 1: and you'll never know what that's like. She got out 555 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 1: of the car and slammed the door. Everything I'd been 556 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: working on with my therapy culminated in him suggesting one 557 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: day that I bring my dad in for a joint session. 558 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: My parents have always been supportive of me when I 559 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 1: first came out to them. I brought them to a 560 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: weekend conference organized by Exodus International, the largest Christian umbrella 561 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: network for conversion therapy. We attended lectures and purchased all 562 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: the books at the book table. So when I told 563 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,399 Speaker 1: my dad that this special session with my therapist could 564 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: be a major breakthrough for my healing, the key that 565 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: unlocked everything, he booked a plane ticket right away. I 566 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,479 Speaker 1: felt nervous and excited. This was my chance to heal 567 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: my father wounds and get one step closer towards my goal. 568 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: On the day of our appointment, we walked up to 569 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: the building together, pushed the heavy metal doors, and went inside. Okay, 570 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: mister Fung, thank you for coming, my therapist said, So, 571 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: I'd like for Simon to start off by expressing how 572 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 1: he feels about your relationship when he was a child. 573 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: I was prepared. My therapist and I had worked for 574 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,800 Speaker 1: weeks on my father wounds. So I told my dad 575 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: what was on my mind. How he never supported me 576 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 1: in the ways I needed when I was bullied at school, 577 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: how abandoned i'd felt in the swimming pool, how I 578 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:14,959 Speaker 1: often felt caught in the middle when he and mom 579 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 1: would fight. It was hard and several times I saw 580 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: my dad WinCE. Then my therapist invited him to respond. 581 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 1: My dad had his head down and was thoughtful for 582 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: a few seconds, and then he spoke in a way 583 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 1: I'd never heard before. He was precise and direct and gentle. 584 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: He said that he knows that he did so many 585 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: things wrong, that there were more mistakes that I hadn't mentioned. 586 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: He said he felt so sorry and so bad and 587 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 1: had no excuses for any of the pain I went through. 588 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,720 Speaker 1: He said he was working on all of this, working 589 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: on himself. 590 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 5: Now. 591 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: I looked at my therapist to facilitate the rest of 592 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 1: the conversation. Was there more to dig up? Maybe I 593 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: could do a verbal judo match with my dad or 594 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: have my inner child speak to him. But my therapist 595 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: had his jaw open, and when he turned to me, 596 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 1: he said, Wow, I'm floored. In all my years of counseling, 597 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,879 Speaker 1: I've never seen such humility, honesty, and courage. He said 598 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: he could only pray for some of these qualities in himself. 599 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: He said, I had an amazing dad. We ended that 600 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,360 Speaker 1: session and my therapist said that further father son appointments 601 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 1: wouldn't be necessary. As I sent my dad off to 602 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: catch his flight. I was grateful for his honesty and remorse, 603 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: but I was also kind of disappointed. I thought that 604 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,359 Speaker 1: there would be more to our sessions, that there would 605 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 1: be more to process about our relationship. After what I'd 606 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,880 Speaker 1: hoped would be a breakthrough, I didn't feel any different, 607 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,360 Speaker 1: but a cure still had to be possible. If this 608 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 1: didn't work, what was I going to do? How would 609 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,400 Speaker 1: I follow god vocation for me? How would I cope? 610 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 1: I was determined to be a conversion therapy success story, 611 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 1: to not be gay, to be fixed, and over the 612 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 1: next five years, I would seek out even more kinds 613 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: of conversion therapy, from a camp in central Virginia where 614 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 1: we re enacted scenes from my schoolyard in order to 615 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: help me process my childhood bullying, to group therapy where 616 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: we deconstructed our sexual fantasies. There wasn't anything I wasn't 617 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 1: willing to try in order to find that silver bullet. 618 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: Alana was also willing to try anything. From her records, 619 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: we know that she belonged to a Catholic support group 620 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,720 Speaker 1: for people with SSA. I remember hearing about this group 621 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: growing up. They'd meet regularly in church basements and Somehow 622 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: the timing never worked out for me to go to 623 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: their meetings, which were structured around treating homosexuality as an addiction, 624 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 1: another popular theory. As the stigma around homosexuality began to 625 00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: fade after the APA's decision, Catholic psychologists started professional groups 626 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: like NARTH, and Catholic clergy started ministries. Father John Harvey, 627 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 1: a moral theyologian who was teaching in DC at the time, 628 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: founded what would become the largest and only Vatican approved 629 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: Catholic ministry for the same sex attracted, a ministry known 630 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: as Courage International. 631 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,879 Speaker 11: It's an organization for the purpose of helping people those 632 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 11: same sex attractions to lead chase lives. And we use 633 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 11: these tall steps of AA with permission of them. So 634 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 11: it's the same kind of program as the dynamics is 635 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:32,760 Speaker 11: the same. 636 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 1: On the Saint Thom's community bookshelf, the two books about 637 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: homosexuality are by Father John Harvey. In his interviews, Father 638 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: Harvey insists that his group Courage is not therapy, it's 639 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 1: a ministry. It's the Church ministering to the individual. But 640 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: the more I listened to him talk about his books, 641 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 1: like in this interview a year before his death on 642 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: the EWTN Bookmark talk show. The more I'm not so sure. 643 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 11: That wonderful chatter on one of the greatest psychologists in 644 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 11: this subject. Her name is Elizabeth Moberly. He's been quoted 645 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 11: all over the place by Protestants, Catholic Jews. So I 646 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 11: got hold of that and I the even visited her 647 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,439 Speaker 11: over in England. She knew every word I put down, 648 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 11: and every word here is her words. You know, I'm 649 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 11: just summarizing her thinking. 650 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: His books contain Moberly's theories essentially verbatim. He rhymes off 651 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:28,719 Speaker 1: her theories. 652 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 11: Relationships for parents, teenage, relationships with peers, you know, an 653 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,400 Speaker 11: overweening mother. These are all very important factors. 654 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,760 Speaker 1: The host asks him whether people can truly be cured 655 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 1: from same sex attraction? 656 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:47,719 Speaker 11: Well, must they live with it for the rest of 657 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 11: their lives? 658 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 7: And what about we've heard about this, I think Nickelosi 659 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 7: usually with reparative therapy. 660 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 11: Reparative therapy is a good thing. It really flows out 661 00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 11: the teaching of Elizabeth Moberley. That's the idea that if 662 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 11: something's wrong, you can repair it, and what it was 663 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 11: wrong is an attachment to the sex of same sex attraction. 664 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 11: You can work your way out of it. 665 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 1: You know, I can work my way out of this. 666 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: I told myself I had to. How else would I 667 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: become a priest. That guy's not hot. He's just a 668 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:25,840 Speaker 1: reflection of my underdeveloped masculinity. And it's just a temptation anyways, 669 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 1: something I can learn to disassociate from. Or is it 670 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,360 Speaker 1: more like a disease or maybe an addiction like gambling 671 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 1: or alcohol. I was holding all of this in at once, 672 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,280 Speaker 1: and I think Alana must have felt this way too 673 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 1: sophomore year. 674 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 3: The reason I thought out therapy is because I need 675 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,400 Speaker 3: to get this under control. If I want to be 676 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,759 Speaker 3: a nun or a wife, a lesbian relationship is not 677 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 3: an option for me. 678 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,400 Speaker 1: On September twenty ninth, twenty sixteen, right as Alana starting 679 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,320 Speaker 1: her senior year year of college, a police car shows 680 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 1: up at the chenhouse. Alana's upstairs and Sophia, her younger sister, 681 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:08,320 Speaker 1: here's the door. 682 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 12: I answered the door. I see a cop, Alana's friend 683 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:17,400 Speaker 12: at the time, and a nun, and I was like, 684 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,399 Speaker 12: what is going on? 685 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,839 Speaker 13: And they were like, we're really worried about your sister. 686 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,359 Speaker 10: We need you to go get her right now. And 687 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 10: I was like, what could possibly be going on. I 688 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:31,560 Speaker 10: was like, this is such a random group of people. 689 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 10: I had no idea. I was like, this is so weird. 690 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 1: She goes upstairs to get Alana. 691 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,919 Speaker 13: Her eyes are so red and I'm clearly crying, and 692 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,319 Speaker 13: I brought her down and I was like, they're like, 693 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,399 Speaker 13: we need to take you to the hospital now. 694 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:48,839 Speaker 10: She kept saying over and over, She's like, I don't 695 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:49,360 Speaker 10: want to leave you. 696 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:54,319 Speaker 1: I don't want to leave you. Just hours before this, 697 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 1: Alana had told her friend some disturbing news. She had 698 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 1: planned to kill her herself in the adoration chapel at 699 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,960 Speaker 1: Saint Thom's. The police rush her immediately to the hospital. 700 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:14,360 Speaker 5: I will follow you, follow you wherever you might go. 701 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 1: Next time on Dear Alana, it was like a. 702 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,400 Speaker 5: Big deal at the channel House that she was going 703 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,279 Speaker 5: on the state and he picked her up and like 704 00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 5: we had all met him. 705 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,000 Speaker 12: He's super nice, he's handsome. 706 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,719 Speaker 1: How Alana's college community deepens her convictions. 707 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 5: I will follow you ever since you touched my hand. 708 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,960 Speaker 1: Dear Alana was created, hosted, and written by me Simon 709 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,879 Speaker 1: Kentfong and is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association 710 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,080 Speaker 1: with a Slept Audio and the Center for Independent Documentary. 711 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,560 Speaker 1: It was produced by Laurie Puliski, who also composed the music. 712 00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:02,400 Speaker 1: Executive producers are myself, Donald Albright, and Payne Lindsay. Our 713 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 1: supervising producer is Tracy leeds Kaplan. Additional music by Makeup 714 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,720 Speaker 1: and Vanity Set sales and distribution by iHeartMedia. Our voice 715 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,719 Speaker 1: actor is Alana Rabor and our credit song I Will 716 00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,880 Speaker 1: Follow You is Bye to Loose. Show notes and resources 717 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,960 Speaker 1: can be found on our website Dearlana dot com. If 718 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,840 Speaker 1: you enjoyed this episode, please take time to follow the show, 719 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: rate and review various. 720 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:38,200 Speaker 5: Notion toud Monton So High, Keep Me Away, Away. 721 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:38,920 Speaker 12: From the Long. 722 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,160 Speaker 1: Dear Alana is an eight part series released weekly. If 723 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,560 Speaker 1: you can't wait until next week, subscribe to tenderfoot Plus 724 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,040 Speaker 1: so you can binge the entire series right now, ad free. 725 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,279 Speaker 1: Head to Apple Podcasts or tenorfoot plus dot com to 726 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:05,160 Speaker 1: subscribe now