WEBVTT - Are We Being Priced Out of Happiness?

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Stephanie Flanders, head of Government and Economics at Bloomberg,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is Trumpnomics, the podcast that looks at what's

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<v Speaker 2>happening in the economic world of Donald Trump, what's shaping

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<v Speaker 2>the US and global economy, and what could happen next.

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<v Speaker 2>This week we're talking about the Great Fun Shortage. You

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<v Speaker 2>might think it was an odd topic. I mean, the

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<v Speaker 2>cost of living, we know is still a major issue

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<v Speaker 2>for households on both sides of the Atlantic, and definitely

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<v Speaker 2>for Donald Trump approaching the midterm elections. But the cost

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<v Speaker 2>of laughing, of having fun seems to be going up

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<v Speaker 2>even faster than other things, and there are fewer and

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<v Speaker 2>fewer places to lay your hands on it. The FIFA

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<v Speaker 2>World Cup, which culminates this Sunday, the nineteenth of July,

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<v Speaker 2>is a case in point. I mean, watch parties are fun,

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<v Speaker 2>but for those of us like me who prefer to

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<v Speaker 2>see their sports live, it's been a disaster. Game tickets

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<v Speaker 2>leading up to the tournament were either incredibly hard to

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<v Speaker 2>get hold of or ruinously expensive, often both, and the

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<v Speaker 2>cheapest official ticket for the final this Sunday will cost

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<v Speaker 2>thirty two times more than the equivalent ticket for the

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<v Speaker 2>European Football Championship final two years ago. Now, if you

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<v Speaker 2>have zero interest in football, you'll be completely fed up

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<v Speaker 2>with hearing any further word on this topic. But this

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<v Speaker 2>phenomenon being priced out of fun is part of a

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<v Speaker 2>broader trend spelled out in a recent Bloomberg piece that

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<v Speaker 2>got a lot of traction online by the reporter Ben Stevenman.

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<v Speaker 2>As he points out, Americans are spending less time socializing

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<v Speaker 2>than they used to. Over the past twenty years, America's

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<v Speaker 2>lost two thousand golf courses and seven thousand bars and nightclubs.

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<v Speaker 2>We're not just talking about leisure time in general, but

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<v Speaker 2>the shared in person kind of leisure, live shows, family trips,

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<v Speaker 2>nights out with friends. Time Youse surveys that have been

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<v Speaker 2>run since the early two thousands show double digit drops

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<v Speaker 2>in the hours spent by Americans on things like that,

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<v Speaker 2>on arts, on sports, and social events. Now, this may

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<v Speaker 2>be a business opportunity for some industries, but for everyone

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<v Speaker 2>else it raises a bigger question. What happens to an

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<v Speaker 2>economy and a society when people just can't afford or

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<v Speaker 2>don't make time to have fun. Well, I'm happy to

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<v Speaker 2>say I'm joined by Ben who wrote that piece. He

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<v Speaker 2>writes about money and people for Bloomberg and is based

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<v Speaker 2>in New York. Welcome Ben, thank you, happy to be here.

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<v Speaker 2>And an economist who spent a large part of his

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<v Speaker 2>career thinking about what makes people happy and more importantly,

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<v Speaker 2>why it matters. Professor Lord Richard Layard, co director of

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<v Speaker 2>the Well Being Program at the Center for Economic Performance

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<v Speaker 2>at the London School of Economics and also the author

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<v Speaker 2>of several books, including the Origins of Happiness and Can

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<v Speaker 2>We Be? Professor Leon Richard, thank you so much for

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<v Speaker 2>taking the time.

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<v Speaker 3>My pleasure.

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<v Speaker 2>Conferentent Ben, How did you come to this topic the

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<v Speaker 2>Great fun Shortage.

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<v Speaker 1>I've been thinking about happiness and community in America for years.

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<v Speaker 1>When you look at the American Time You survey that

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<v Speaker 1>ask people how they spend their time, you see these

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<v Speaker 1>sort of very depressing trend in terms of how much

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<v Speaker 1>work just socializing face to face. We're just doing it

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<v Speaker 1>a lot less than we used to do. And it's

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<v Speaker 1>been my hunch for years that like that is having

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<v Speaker 1>major effects on us, on our politics, on our economy,

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<v Speaker 1>and it doesn't seem like it's sustainable. But When I

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<v Speaker 1>started the research for this particular piece, I was just

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<v Speaker 1>really thinking about high gas prices and I was sort

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<v Speaker 1>of like, oh, like, maybe this is making this summer

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<v Speaker 1>a summer of scarcity, where people will be cutting back

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<v Speaker 1>on vacations. And then I was surprised to see that

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<v Speaker 1>people didn't really cut back that much on travel as

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<v Speaker 1>much as you would think. People seem to really want

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<v Speaker 1>to get out there. And I started looking at all

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<v Speaker 1>the different ways people like to have fun, that gets

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<v Speaker 1>them out of the house, that gets them out with

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<v Speaker 1>their family or friends or the community, and just seeing

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<v Speaker 1>the supply shrinking in area after area, industry after industry,

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<v Speaker 1>And so that's why I wrote the piece.

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<v Speaker 2>You just mentioned it there. There's there are two elements

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<v Speaker 2>to this, isn't it. Sort Of there's less available and

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<v Speaker 2>I guess often goes with this, but also just a

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<v Speaker 2>massive increase in the cost of a lot of these

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<v Speaker 2>events and this kind of activity. But what are you

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<v Speaker 2>seeing driving those things.

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<v Speaker 1>There's just the baseline of inflation generally is first of all,

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<v Speaker 1>squeezing the sort of a fun budget. People have less

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<v Speaker 1>money left over for discretionary purchases. That's one thing. The

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<v Speaker 1>other thing is the fixed costs of running a hotel

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<v Speaker 1>or a nightclub just sword. But then there's also a

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<v Speaker 1>supply issue. We really don't build beachfront resorts in the

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<v Speaker 1>United States anymore. We have thousands and thousands of miles

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<v Speaker 1>of coastline and we don't build on places people can

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<v Speaker 1>gather and have fun and then anymore. So then we've

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<v Speaker 1>also had this inequality trend in the United States. So

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<v Speaker 1>who ends up in those beachfront luxury resorts. It's the

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<v Speaker 1>wealthy and the rest of us who maybe these are

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<v Speaker 1>places you started bringing your kids to and now they're

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<v Speaker 1>older and you really have to stop going to those

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<v Speaker 1>beach towns and you got to find something else to do.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think it's a combination of factors, and it's

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<v Speaker 1>different for different kinds of fun. But I think it's

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<v Speaker 1>a complex mix of dynamics that are really coming together

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<v Speaker 1>in twenty twenty six.

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<v Speaker 2>And demographics, I guess, is another piece of it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's just more people, there's just more people fighting

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<v Speaker 1>over fewer spots.

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<v Speaker 2>But I mean and also older people. You know, there's

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<v Speaker 2>a chunk of people who are kind of entering retirement,

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<v Speaker 2>who have all the money and maybe are also pushing

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<v Speaker 2>up prices that way.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, baby boomer is retired and they can't stop going

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<v Speaker 1>on trips.

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<v Speaker 2>So they're taking all the lounges on the beach.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the national parks are full of baby boomers with

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<v Speaker 1>blots of free time, and there's just less sparts for

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<v Speaker 1>everybody else.

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<v Speaker 2>Richard, I thought you would be a sort of perfect

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<v Speaker 2>person to talk about this too. You've always said happiness

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<v Speaker 2>is what should be the ultimate yardstick of the success

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<v Speaker 2>of an economy. I guess we're talking about fun, which

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<v Speaker 2>isn't necessarily the same as happiness or good mental health.

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<v Speaker 2>So how do you think about the connection between the

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<v Speaker 2>kind of activities that Ben's talking about and the kind

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<v Speaker 2>of happiness mental well being that you have focused on

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<v Speaker 2>for so long.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, all the research shows that social connections are absolutely

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<v Speaker 3>central to people's happiness, and the social connections, of course

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<v Speaker 3>depend on the amount of time that you spend on them,

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<v Speaker 3>and so the time evidence that people are spending less

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<v Speaker 3>time socializing is absolutely central to understanding the other huge fact,

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<v Speaker 3>which is documented in the World Happiness Report that overall

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<v Speaker 3>happiness has fallen in the US by more than in

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<v Speaker 3>any other country other than I think fourteen out of

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<v Speaker 3>all the countries in the world, and this is particularly

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<v Speaker 3>affecting young people, and I think that that is a

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<v Speaker 3>very bad omen for the future, because we know that

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<v Speaker 3>the best predictor of a happy life is how happy

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<v Speaker 3>you are when you're young. America has now dropped to

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<v Speaker 3>sixty second position for happiness of young people, and I

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<v Speaker 3>think all of this is connected with the growth of

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<v Speaker 3>online living. So I very much agree with Jonathan Heights's

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<v Speaker 3>line on this that the social media are having a

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<v Speaker 3>poisoning effect on young people, and it's because young people

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<v Speaker 3>use the more than older people that they are suffering

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<v Speaker 3>more as a result. And we know that he showed.

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<v Speaker 3>I thought it was extraordinary that over half of young

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<v Speaker 3>people say they wish social media didn't exist, but they're captive.

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<v Speaker 3>They have to go on them because everybody else is

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<v Speaker 3>going on them. So there's a huge amount of evidence

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<v Speaker 3>that time spent online is destructive of happiness for two reasons.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, one is obviously lack of social ordinary face

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<v Speaker 3>to face social contact, which has been the way humans

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<v Speaker 3>enjoyed themselves from the beginning of time. But also the

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<v Speaker 3>negative side, the encouragement of social comparisons and comparing yourself

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<v Speaker 3>with the perfect life of the influence, etc. So I

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<v Speaker 3>think all of that is going into this diminution of

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<v Speaker 3>and increase in unhappiness, which is particularly present in the

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<v Speaker 3>English speaking world. People of course questioned whether social media

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<v Speaker 3>are so important because they are prevalent in other parts

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<v Speaker 3>of the world. I think what is so interesting is

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<v Speaker 3>that the English speaking world has been particularly strongly affected,

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<v Speaker 3>partly perhaps because of the way that the tech companies operate,

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<v Speaker 3>but also that these are the societies where young people

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<v Speaker 3>have broken away more from their families and are less

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<v Speaker 3>controllable by their parents and parents' values seem to have

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<v Speaker 3>kept social life going in Latin America other parts of

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<v Speaker 3>the world in the way that they haven't in the

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<v Speaker 3>United States and Britain.

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<v Speaker 2>You've partly answered the question I would have asked you,

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<v Speaker 2>but it does feel like, you know, large parts of

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<v Speaker 2>Europe people are extremely online, but they don't seem to

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<v Speaker 2>have had, certainly from your world happiness, which also Ben

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<v Speaker 2>mentions in his piece, they don't seem to have had

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<v Speaker 2>the same fall in unhappy in happiness.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, the old English speaking world actually includes Australia and Canada.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that it is to do with the fact

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<v Speaker 3>of parents having more influence on young people's social norms

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<v Speaker 3>in the rest of Europe as compared with Britain. I

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<v Speaker 3>think that's a very very important fact.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the things that you mentioned Ben in your

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<v Speaker 2>piece is the potential political consequences of some of this,

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<v Speaker 2>and I guess we'll get onto some of the policy responses,

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<v Speaker 2>but in terms of the many reasons that you might

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<v Speaker 2>worry about it, you cite and there's studies that show

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<v Speaker 2>that voters are more likely to vote for populist candidates

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<v Speaker 2>in years after social spaces and pubs and bars have

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<v Speaker 2>closed down.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there are two studies, one from France looking at

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<v Speaker 1>bar tabas the place to buy you can get a

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<v Speaker 1>cup of coffee, or you can place a bet, or

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<v Speaker 1>just buy a newspaper that thousands of those in small

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<v Speaker 1>French towns have shut down and it actually takes a while,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not an immediate effect. But when those places closed down,

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<v Speaker 1>according to this new study, in the next decade or two,

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<v Speaker 1>those places become gradually more and more right wing and

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<v Speaker 1>more more willing to vote for not just conservative parties

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<v Speaker 1>but sort of the extreme right wing parties. And then

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<v Speaker 1>there was another study in the UK looking at pubs

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<v Speaker 1>and showing similar things.

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<v Speaker 3>Could The closure of youth clubs has been an extraordinary

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<v Speaker 3>thing in Britain. We've lost seventy three percent of a

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<v Speaker 3>level of activity and funding for youth clubs over the

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<v Speaker 3>last ten or fifteen years. And of course the closure

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<v Speaker 3>rates is different in different areas, and you can see

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<v Speaker 3>straight away that the effect on crime in the areas

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<v Speaker 3>where youth clubs have been closed is quite dramatic. I

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<v Speaker 3>think if we could just go back to the question

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<v Speaker 3>of populism, I mean, the clearest fact that's been established

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<v Speaker 3>really in almost every country is that the people who

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<v Speaker 3>vote for populists are the discontented people, some of whom

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<v Speaker 3>have become discontented for policy reasons and some of them

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<v Speaker 3>for cost of living or other reasons. But discontent is

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<v Speaker 3>driving people into extreme right wing or extreme left wing positions.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's why one extraordinarily powerful reason why we have

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<v Speaker 3>to try and put the contentment of the people more

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<v Speaker 3>central to public policy if we want to preserve democracy.

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<v Speaker 2>Ben As Richard says, part of this is about a

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<v Speaker 2>cost of living issue, which is obviously issue number one,

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<v Speaker 2>not just in the US but also in the UK

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<v Speaker 2>and other places, and it doesn't just relate to this.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it relates to the of groceries in the

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<v Speaker 2>price of petrol gas going up. But does the people

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<v Speaker 2>being priced out of fun activities or hold days and

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<v Speaker 2>over the does that have a particular resonance. How much

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<v Speaker 2>is it politically sailing on its own or is it

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<v Speaker 2>just being sort of pushed together and along with other things.

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<v Speaker 2>I know just you mentioned in New York sort of

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<v Speaker 2>having more more liquor licenses as a way to try

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<v Speaker 2>and encourage some of the bars to come back.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that inflation in and of itself, and the

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<v Speaker 1>price of just food that you bring home and need

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<v Speaker 1>at home like that is something that is infuriating to

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<v Speaker 1>people in and of itself and is sort of disconnected

0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:38.600
<v Speaker 1>perhaps from this fun happiness conversation. But I think when

0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:42.880
<v Speaker 1>you go to a concert and you feel like you're

0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:46.520
<v Speaker 1>being squeezed into, like to actually get close enough to

0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:50.120
<v Speaker 1>see the artist and not just watch a screen from

0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:53.320
<v Speaker 1>the back row, when you have to pay hundreds of

0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:57.079
<v Speaker 1>dollars to do that, it's really dispiriting. But when people

0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:00.600
<v Speaker 1>will go out and try to do that, they're subject

0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:05.240
<v Speaker 1>to these premiumization regimes where to get in and have

0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.040
<v Speaker 1>the same experience you had a decade ago, is going

0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:10.040
<v Speaker 1>to cost you four times as much, even if the

0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:13.160
<v Speaker 1>official inflation rate hasn't gone up that much. For that

0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:17.080
<v Speaker 1>particular activity, we've really created these tiers, whether it's on

0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:18.959
<v Speaker 1>an airplane or in a concert hall.

0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:21.200
<v Speaker 2>Everyone's forgotten that now because the World Cup's been quite

0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:23.320
<v Speaker 2>popular in the US, but then the lead up to it,

0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:27.840
<v Speaker 2>it was that very intensive tiering by FIFA that I

0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:30.200
<v Speaker 2>think had sort of have brought that home. And Richard,

0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:33.200
<v Speaker 2>I can't help thinking, I mean, many many years ago,

0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:36.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, you were the person who had really contributed

0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.160
<v Speaker 2>to the people focusing on relative inequality and how that

0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.720
<v Speaker 2>was related to people's happiness. And we're seeing that now

0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:46.280
<v Speaker 2>with the way that the sort of aggressive rent seeking

0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:50.520
<v Speaker 2>and segmenting of the market into more and more upper

0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:54.400
<v Speaker 2>tiers seems like a very there's a very close connection

0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.400
<v Speaker 2>between that and people's general sense of well being, even

0:14:57.400 --> 0:14:59.800
<v Speaker 2>if it's a somewhat trivial example sitting in a.

0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:05.520
<v Speaker 3>Com Yes, so one mustn't exaggerate the influence of economic

0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:10.360
<v Speaker 3>factors in the production of discontent. I mean, if you're

0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:15.640
<v Speaker 3>try and explain who are the most discontented people. In

0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.840
<v Speaker 3>most advanced countries, the number one factor is going to

0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:23.880
<v Speaker 3>be mental health and loneliness. These factors are coming through

0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:28.560
<v Speaker 3>at least as strongly as as simple living standards. I

0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:32.600
<v Speaker 3>was very impressed by the US Surgeon General Vivek Murti

0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:35.880
<v Speaker 3>when he went on his first tour as surch in General.

0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.520
<v Speaker 3>What were the greatest problems of health as he thought

0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:44.560
<v Speaker 3>facing people? They said, loneliness. That was what people reported

0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:49.160
<v Speaker 3>to him. And that's behind the death of despair and

0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:53.000
<v Speaker 3>all the rest of it. And it is behind populism

0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:56.960
<v Speaker 3>because people join these populist parties because it gives them

0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:59.600
<v Speaker 3>a sense of identity that they feel they belonging to

0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:05.280
<v Speaker 3>something that actually means something. It turns over their insids.

0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:12.880
<v Speaker 3>So it really is crucial that we deal with this discontent,

0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:18.800
<v Speaker 3>and it really is important for politicians to understand that

0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:23.440
<v Speaker 3>the factors that will determine this is studies of both

0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:27.640
<v Speaker 3>European elections and US presidential election the fact that which

0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:31.080
<v Speaker 3>will determine whether a government goes through elected are more

0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:35.840
<v Speaker 3>to do with non economic factors affecting their happiness than

0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:40.280
<v Speaker 3>economic factors. And we need much more attention to things

0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:44.240
<v Speaker 3>that generate the social interactions which we started as than

0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:45.520
<v Speaker 3>just the cost of living.

0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.400
<v Speaker 2>We have potentially a moment of opportunity in the UK,

0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:03.840
<v Speaker 2>despite their not being electioned and arrival of a new government,

0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.280
<v Speaker 2>a new Prime minister anyway in the coming days. And

0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.880
<v Speaker 2>E seems to be quite open to some of these ideas.

0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:13.359
<v Speaker 2>And I know we've also heard and Ben mentioned in

0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.600
<v Speaker 2>his piece. You clearly have Democrat politicians on the ground

0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:19.560
<v Speaker 2>in the US also trying to address some of these

0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:23.600
<v Speaker 2>sources of discontent. But when you look at the sort

0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:28.639
<v Speaker 2>of cost effectiveness of different interventions to improve happiness, but

0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:35.600
<v Speaker 2>how do you rank something like more spending on counseling

0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:40.800
<v Speaker 2>and direct efforts to address high levels of depression, for example,

0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:45.119
<v Speaker 2>against having more parks and more sort of social infrastructure

0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:48.359
<v Speaker 2>ways of getting people together, or youth clubs for that matter.

0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:51.840
<v Speaker 3>Well, as you say, we have been looking right across

0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:55.560
<v Speaker 3>the board at the cost effectiveness of different types of

0:17:55.600 --> 0:18:00.159
<v Speaker 3>public spending. And the most extraordinarily effective is you call

0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:04.439
<v Speaker 3>it counseling. I would call it psychological therapy, which is

0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:08.080
<v Speaker 3>basically paying for itself within a couple of years, both

0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:12.439
<v Speaker 3>when it's done for adults and when it's done for

0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:13.520
<v Speaker 3>young people.

0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:16.359
<v Speaker 2>Paying for itself in what way are they returns in

0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:19.320
<v Speaker 2>terms of people working or returns in terms of people

0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:20.080
<v Speaker 2>feeling better.

0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.639
<v Speaker 3>Of course, the real, really important return is people feeling better.

0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:26.600
<v Speaker 3>But from the government's point of view, it's of great

0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.560
<v Speaker 3>interest that it won't cost them anything because they get

0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:31.800
<v Speaker 3>the money back within a couple of years.

0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:35.320
<v Speaker 2>From people work, from tax revenues or from reduced health costs.

0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:37.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm just trying to work out what the saving would.

0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:43.520
<v Speaker 3>Be when you're talking about adult anxiety and depression, which

0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:47.280
<v Speaker 3>is the biggest single set of problems. It's just people

0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.920
<v Speaker 3>getting back to work and coming off benefits. The savings

0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:55.280
<v Speaker 3>there are so immediate. When you're talking about addicts, you're

0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:59.280
<v Speaker 3>talking about healthcare costs as well being saved, people not

0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:05.080
<v Speaker 3>turning up any not turning up in patient facilities and

0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:10.000
<v Speaker 3>so on. But you mentioned parks. They are also good value.

0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:13.879
<v Speaker 3>Small parks being close to green space turns out to

0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:17.840
<v Speaker 3>be very cost effective. Actually, things like the police turn

0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:21.000
<v Speaker 3>out to be are the cost effective. They actually encourage

0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:25.000
<v Speaker 3>people the theme we are on mixing freely because they

0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:28.480
<v Speaker 3>feel safe. Things which are much less cost effective are

0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:33.760
<v Speaker 3>extra new roads, new railways. We spend an extraordinary amount

0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:37.040
<v Speaker 3>on these in a way that's not really questioned, and

0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:41.760
<v Speaker 3>I think that we need to subject all public expenditure

0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:45.240
<v Speaker 3>to this test. What does it ultimately do for the

0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:47.359
<v Speaker 3>quality of life as people experience it.

0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:50.639
<v Speaker 2>Ben You obviously spend your time dipping in out of

0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:53.120
<v Speaker 2>lots of different topics, but I know that you're particularly

0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:57.920
<v Speaker 2>interested in the sort of dynamics of wealth and how

0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:01.199
<v Speaker 2>it affects society and affects people. And you've obviously demonstrated

0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:03.600
<v Speaker 2>that in this piece. And there's been a lot of

0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:06.239
<v Speaker 2>talk about wealth taxes. But do you think with all

0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:09.200
<v Speaker 2>this discussion that maybe we'll get into talking about high

0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:10.880
<v Speaker 2>end consumption taxes.

0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:14.199
<v Speaker 1>That's really interesting In terms of policy interventions, I was

0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:18.000
<v Speaker 1>thinking a little bit more about creating new or more

0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:22.119
<v Speaker 1>fun infrastructure. This seems like an opportunity for local politicians

0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:25.960
<v Speaker 1>to bring a little life back to communities, whether that's

0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:28.639
<v Speaker 1>a free concert or a dance party on a Friday

0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:32.680
<v Speaker 1>night on a block this shut to traffic. But the

0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:37.159
<v Speaker 1>tax issue, I've looked into these taxes on wealthy people

0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:41.639
<v Speaker 1>and people's attitudes about billionaires and trillionaires, and in the

0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:44.040
<v Speaker 1>United States, for a long time, there was a sense

0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:47.280
<v Speaker 1>that people didn't really resent billionaires that much when you

0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:50.320
<v Speaker 1>pull them. But that's starting to change, and there's less

0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:52.760
<v Speaker 1>admiration for the wealthy than there used to be. And

0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:56.399
<v Speaker 1>I do wonder whether one of the factors there is

0:20:56.400 --> 0:21:00.320
<v Speaker 1>that there is this sense that the experience is the

0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:04.879
<v Speaker 1>cool places and the cool experiences that were once available

0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:07.960
<v Speaker 1>to a broad middle class population, you know, are becoming

0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:10.439
<v Speaker 1>these premium, expensive, rare luxuries.

0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:12.080
<v Speaker 2>When you were saying that, I was thinking, yeah, well,

0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:13.639
<v Speaker 2>I guess the billionaires in the past were a bit

0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.520
<v Speaker 2>more low key about spending their billions. But of course,

0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:18.800
<v Speaker 2>as Richard points out, it's that we see it all on.

0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:21.040
<v Speaker 2>If we don't see it when we're trying to go

0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:23.640
<v Speaker 2>to these events, we see it all online in their

0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:26.840
<v Speaker 2>perfect lives, and it's all it's very much in front

0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:27.560
<v Speaker 2>of our faces.

0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:31.400
<v Speaker 1>That reminds me of the Yeah, like billionaires posting from

0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:34.119
<v Speaker 1>their yachts during COVID when we were all stuck at home.

0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:35.920
<v Speaker 1>That they're similar dynamic.

0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:39.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's not particularly good, pr Richard. People who regularly

0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:42.800
<v Speaker 2>listen to this show will find this a curious topic perhaps,

0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:44.720
<v Speaker 2>or an unusual topic for us to have gone into,

0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:48.560
<v Speaker 2>because we haven't been talking only about economics, but I

0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:50.480
<v Speaker 2>guess that's that's part of the point you're making.

0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:53.320
<v Speaker 3>I'm a member of something called Action but Happiness, that

0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:56.960
<v Speaker 3>is promoting a way of life where you pledge to

0:21:56.960 --> 0:21:58.879
<v Speaker 3>try and create as much happiness as you can in

0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:02.960
<v Speaker 3>the world. That's putting that as a principle for yourself

0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:05.040
<v Speaker 3>how you should live. But of course it's also a

0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:09.719
<v Speaker 3>principle for what the government should be doing. But coming

0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:16.800
<v Speaker 3>back to your original theme, Stephanie, I do think that

0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:24.080
<v Speaker 3>this decline of face to face contact is a massive problem.

0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:27.160
<v Speaker 3>And we know that people they don't go to meetings.

0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:30.359
<v Speaker 3>I mean they don't get You can't get people to

0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:35.600
<v Speaker 3>go to things because they are spending so much time online.

0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:39.000
<v Speaker 3>And even if they're together, like for example, in the

0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:41.920
<v Speaker 3>big space in the university, you'll see one hundreds of

0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:46.040
<v Speaker 3>people sitting around and there's no noise anymore. It's quite

0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:49.320
<v Speaker 3>They're all texting each other. They're even texting people who

0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:53.440
<v Speaker 3>are in the same room. This is a fundamental cultural

0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:58.960
<v Speaker 3>change which I think is not for the better. And

0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:01.919
<v Speaker 3>I'm hoping, you know, we can get a reform school

0:23:02.040 --> 0:23:06.400
<v Speaker 3>education where people are taught better life skills I understand

0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:09.520
<v Speaker 3>that measurements have been made which showed children can't make

0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:11.639
<v Speaker 3>eye contact in the same way that they used to.

0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:19.439
<v Speaker 3>We need to restore the basic practice of social living

0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:23.200
<v Speaker 3>as central to people's enjoyment of life.

0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:28.320
<v Speaker 2>Richard Layard, Ben Stephenman, thank you so much, Thank.

0:23:28.160 --> 0:23:39.160
<v Speaker 4>You, thank you, thanks for listening to Trumponomics from Bloomberg.

0:23:39.200 --> 0:23:41.520
<v Speaker 2>It was hosted by me Stephanie Flanders. I was joined

0:23:41.560 --> 0:23:45.119
<v Speaker 2>by Bloomberg News reporter Ben Stevenman and the economist and

0:23:45.400 --> 0:23:50.240
<v Speaker 2>LC professor Lord Richard Layard. Toponomics was produced by Moss

0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:53.600
<v Speaker 2>Andam and Summer Sadi with help from a Keen, and

0:23:53.720 --> 0:23:56.720
<v Speaker 2>sound design was by Blake Maples and Kelly Garrett. And

0:23:56.800 --> 0:24:00.119
<v Speaker 2>to help others find this brilliant show, please rate and

0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:02.080
<v Speaker 2>review its tide wherever you listen