Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello Whipsmarties.
Speaker 1: Today we are joined by an old friend and a
Speaker 1: big inspiration to me. Today's guest is Jamie Linn Sigler.
Speaker 1: You know her most likely from her iconic role playing
Speaker 1: meto soprano on the HBO series The Sopranos.
Speaker 2: She has done.
Speaker 1: Incredible work in film, television, theater, I mean hello headlining
Speaker 1: a tour at MSG. She is just an unbelievable performer
Speaker 1: and also an incredible author. In two thousand and two,
Speaker 1: she wrote an autobiography called Wise Girl, What I've Learned
Speaker 1: about Life, Love and Loss That is so beautiful. And
Speaker 1: this year she started a podcast with Christina Applegate, another
Speaker 1: incredible acting ic, on who shares something really personal with
Speaker 1: Jamie Lynn. Both of them were diagnosed with MS and
Speaker 1: they've started a podcast called Messi based on their friendship
Speaker 1: and the lessons they've learned throughout their diagnosis and their
Speaker 1: journey with the condition. Jamie Lynn is so vulnerable and
Speaker 1: inspiring to me and I know to so many of you.
Speaker 1: And while she juggles all of these incredible projects, she
Speaker 1: also happens to be a mother of two amazing young
Speaker 1: sons with her husband Cutter. They are truly some of
Speaker 1: my favorite people to hang out with, people that if
Speaker 1: you ever are fortunate enough to be with at a wedding,
Speaker 1: you definitely want to hit the dance floor with. And
Speaker 1: not only is she so incredibly fun, but she is
Speaker 1: so incredibly inspiring. I've probably said that too many times
Speaker 1: in this intro, but it's true. I can't wait for
Speaker 1: you all to hear this conversation. It really left me
Speaker 1: feeling so and really reminded me about what's possible enjoy.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited. I felt myself actually wanting to dive
Speaker 1: into questions immediately because I was like, I'm just going
Speaker 1: to start like blabbing at you and asking you everything anyway,
Speaker 1: So I'm glad I pushed record.
Speaker 3: Fast Grace, So God.
Speaker 1: I feel like we have so much to catch up on,
Speaker 1: and there's also just so much that's exciting in your world.
Speaker 1: I'm thrilled about the new project. I have a bajillion
Speaker 1: things I want to ask you about. But before we
Speaker 1: get into what's going on now, I actually really like
Speaker 1: to rewind with people and go way back, because so
Speaker 1: many people know you as an actor and an advocate
Speaker 1: and all of these amazing.
Speaker 2: Things that you are.
Speaker 1: You know, you let us in on your life and
Speaker 1: your family and like all the exciting things you guys do.
Speaker 1: But I always like to figure out who guests were
Speaker 1: before we knew you, and we've known you for a
Speaker 1: long time. So if you sit at this vantage point
Speaker 1: today and you look back like you, you know you
Speaker 1: TiVo rewind back to life when you were eight or nine. Yeah,
Speaker 1: do you see yourself in Jamie as a little girl
Speaker 1: or were you like a completely different kid?
Speaker 3: So crazy you're asking me this question right now because
Speaker 3: I in because of where I'm at in my life
Speaker 3: right now, and especially in this stage of my life
Speaker 3: where I'm finally realizing that I don't need to hold
Speaker 3: anything back and I don't need to hide. I wrote
Speaker 3: this letter to my younger self recently, and it's kind
Speaker 3: of like the beginnings maybe of a book. And I
Speaker 3: am still so much that girl. She's still in me
Speaker 3: that she is very insecure, she's very scared of the world.
Speaker 3: She doesn't know who to trust. She wants to be
Speaker 3: perfect because she feels she won't be loved yet, she
Speaker 3: maybe wishes something was wrong, because if something's wrong, people
Speaker 3: will love her. And I know that girl so well,
Speaker 3: but I want to tell her that while life doesn't
Speaker 3: go exactly how she planned or wanted, it's so much better.
Speaker 3: It's so much harder, but because of that, it's so beautiful.
Speaker 3: And you know, I recently had Edie Falco on our
Speaker 3: podcast and she had said to me, you know, because
Speaker 3: sometimes I'd said, like God, I wish I could just
Speaker 3: go back to that little girl or that moment in
Speaker 3: time and redo it and be who I am now.
Speaker 3: And she said, but who's to say you would be
Speaker 3: who you are now if you weren't that person then,
Speaker 3: So little Jamie on the outside had it all, but
Speaker 3: on the inside was just very afraid all the time. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and not because of you know, my circumstances. You know,
Speaker 3: I was raised by two wonderful people. My parents are
Speaker 3: still alive and I'm still very close with them. But
Speaker 3: you know, my mom grew up in Cuba and came
Speaker 3: over as an immigrant in Project Peter Pan during the
Speaker 3: revolution and had a very very traumatic childhood. And then
Speaker 3: my grandmother came over a year later. And because of
Speaker 3: that and their intimate relationship, what helped them survive was
Speaker 3: it was them against the world and nobody else. We
Speaker 3: couldn't trust anybody else, and so that was she I
Speaker 3: thought she was protecting me. But that's kind of the
Speaker 3: world that she thought I was going to be going
Speaker 3: into as well. And so it took a lot of unlearning,
Speaker 3: like a lifetime, you know, forty years of unlearning of that. Yeah,
Speaker 3: But even though she had that, I was also bolstered
Speaker 3: by this like beautiful community of community theater on Long Island,
Speaker 3: which became my home away from home, and I loved
Speaker 3: it so much, and it was it felt you know,
Speaker 3: I think when you're a creative person and you get
Speaker 3: an opportunity to like live in your creativity, especially at
Speaker 3: a young age, it just feels so effortless and feels
Speaker 3: like you're calling and feels like what you're meant to do,
Speaker 3: and you really can't explain why. And I'm really lucky
Speaker 3: that I was able to have that as a little girl,
Speaker 3: because I don't know what would have happened if I didn't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, God, it's a big deal to have, you know,
Speaker 1: a place of space and outlet and especially it's so
Speaker 1: wild that well, thank you first of all, before I
Speaker 1: say the craziness of the parallel. Thank you for being
Speaker 1: as honest and transparent as you just were.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I almost don't know any other way now,
Speaker 3: or I don't want to.
Speaker 2: I don't either, And it's funny.
Speaker 1: I just recently had a very in depth conversation with
Speaker 1: a friend of mine who's a journalist, and she was like, God,
Speaker 1: I just thank you for being willing to be so honest.
Speaker 1: And I think what I've realized is like, if we're
Speaker 1: not being honest and we're not being vulnerable with each other, like,
Speaker 1: what are we doing talking? What are we doing taking
Speaker 1: up space? Because to your point, life is hard, and
Speaker 1: no matter what it looks like on the outside for anyone,
Speaker 1: people are struggling. And like the way you're talking about
Speaker 1: your experiences as a little girl, like my my inner
Speaker 1: child is like you too. You know, I grew up
Speaker 1: with you know, my mom came from a family with
Speaker 1: a lot of trauma and their immigration stories. My dad,
Speaker 1: you know, was an immigrant as well. And there's there
Speaker 1: really is something I think to that and to that
Speaker 1: identity and to the wanting to be the perfect picture
Speaker 1: of the American dream. And I, from a very young age,
Speaker 1: before I even started performing, learned that like I had
Speaker 1: to be a perfect daughter and a perfect you know, neighbor,
Speaker 1: and there was a lot of fear and it took
Speaker 1: me a really long time to start living instead of
Speaker 1: trying to live up to expectation.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so when you talk about that, I'm just like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm not by.
Speaker 2: Myself, so yeah, and thank you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course. And I think that's the beauty of
Speaker 3: being born. I think sometimes we can fear that our
Speaker 3: specific vulnerability will not connect with somebody else and make
Speaker 3: you feel even more alone because then you share and
Speaker 3: then you realize that nobody else feels what you. That's
Speaker 3: never been the case. In fact, I find the more
Speaker 3: specific specific I've ever gotten with my vulnerability, the more
Speaker 3: connected I have and with other people, the more universal
Speaker 3: it becomes, because like you said, we all have hard things.
Speaker 3: That's part of the human experience. I really believe in
Speaker 3: my heart that we're here to evolve and grow, and
Speaker 3: whether in the end of the day that's true or not,
Speaker 3: it's what gets me through my life. And I find
Speaker 3: that there's different paths that get us to kind of
Speaker 3: really the same places in life and the same challenges
Speaker 3: and the same roadblocks, And it's what shapes us and
Speaker 3: what makes us who we are, but it also makes
Speaker 3: us connect with other human beings, because what's the point
Speaker 3: of life if you're not doing that?
Speaker 1: You know, exactly exactly, and it's like, what an interesting
Speaker 1: thing when you layer? You know, the kind of connection
Speaker 1: you're talking about cultivating in your life.
Speaker 2: What is.
Speaker 1: Really universal is specific, And ironically that's something I talk
Speaker 1: about a lot with work, like I think really really
Speaker 1: incredible film or television. You know, for some reason, the
Speaker 1: show Fleabag is popping into my head like, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: an incredibly specific character. Yes, but it felt universal to
Speaker 1: so many people because of its specificity. You could go, well,
Speaker 1: I don't have her life, but I relate to the
Speaker 1: way she feels. And it's I don't think it's any
Speaker 1: accident that that phrase comes up while we're talking about vulnerability,
Speaker 1: and you're also talking about your creative identity in theater,
Speaker 1: in finding a voice, in finding a space where you
Speaker 1: got to explore feelings and ironically didn't have to perform
Speaker 1: as perfect, right, because the characters are never perfect, so
Speaker 1: in a way they can be your outlet to learn.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, it's so true. Low, I didn't even think
Speaker 3: about that it really is an opportunity to play just
Speaker 3: human beings and their flawed cells, and you see the
Speaker 3: beauty and the lessons and the arcs and the growth.
Speaker 3: And it's so crazy that we're constantly being fed these
Speaker 3: stories right on TV and in movies and in theater,
Speaker 3: and it's like we don't allow ourselves the room to
Speaker 3: have that same growth as humans.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're supposed to have it all figured out and
Speaker 1: you have. The characters we relate to are the ones
Speaker 1: that don't.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh crazy. I've really felt recently that I have
Speaker 3: never felt more powerful than when I say I don't know,
Speaker 3: teach me, show me, Like I'm always willing to have
Speaker 3: my mind changed or my mind influenced. I used to,
Speaker 3: especially you know, in our business. I think when you
Speaker 3: grow up as a kid and you you want to
Speaker 3: you have to be a little adult, and you've got
Speaker 3: extra responsibilities that kids don't have, and you you kind
Speaker 3: of fake it till you make it, and you pretend
Speaker 3: you've got it and you don't ask many questions, and
Speaker 3: it kind of breeds you to never have an opportunity
Speaker 3: to be like, oh I don't know, and I and
Speaker 3: I felt so much pressure because of that, and now
Speaker 3: I'll go into anything an audition room, a job, a
Speaker 3: lunch and and not and and stand with the power
Speaker 3: of I don't know it all and it just feels
Speaker 3: safe in that. And it's just been so nice to
Speaker 3: kind of, yeah, release that pressure off of myself.
Speaker 1: That's really interesting because when you talk about, you know,
Speaker 1: finding your love of performing in community theater as a kid,
Speaker 1: and then I think about you, I mean not just
Speaker 1: you booked a role, You booked the role of meto
Speaker 1: soprano at sixteen. Was that both exciting and jarring? Was
Speaker 1: that an environment where you felt like you had to
Speaker 1: act like you knew everything because you were so young?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: Was? I imagine it was amazing but probably a lot
Speaker 1: of pressure.
Speaker 3: Yes, but not any pressure that anyone there put on me.
Speaker 3: They were so if I think back, like so loving
Speaker 3: and so caring and so gentle with me and Robert
Speaker 3: who played my brother on the show, especially in those
Speaker 3: first couple of years. But me Jamie was like, you know,
Speaker 3: put up this front that I had it all together
Speaker 3: and now I'm cool because I thought that's what I
Speaker 3: needed to do. But that whole experience just I this
Speaker 3: is in one of those moments where I wish I
Speaker 3: could go back, but I understand that it wouldn't have
Speaker 3: been the same, but I just I really wish that
Speaker 3: I let people in more during that because while it
Speaker 3: was ten years of the most incredible I got paid
Speaker 3: to go to the best acting school, right and I
Speaker 3: just got to work with the greatest people and the
Speaker 3: greatest material and have some of the most incredible, like
Speaker 3: once in a lifetime experiences. Because of it, my personal
Speaker 3: life was in shambles through those whole ten years. So
Speaker 3: it's it ended up becoming like a really safe place
Speaker 3: for me to land, similar to my community theater, where
Speaker 3: no matter what was going on in my personal life,
Speaker 3: whether I was married and changed my name and now
Speaker 3: I'm divorced, I'm back to Sigler and I'm this and
Speaker 3: I'm this size and now I'm this size, and they
Speaker 3: just welcomed me no matter what. And that's so beautiful
Speaker 3: what it is and it was, and I'm it's I'm
Speaker 3: like just now starting to grasp the professional aspect of
Speaker 3: like what I was a part of and really understanding
Speaker 3: it because for so long it was just about the
Speaker 3: personal experience and the family that I was able to
Speaker 3: have there and the support that I had that I
Speaker 3: really needed during that time in my life.
Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors who make this
Speaker 1: show possible.
Speaker 2: Do you feel like because.
Speaker 1: To your point, you know, nobody ever knows what's going
Speaker 1: on in your life. They only see, you know, the
Speaker 1: perfectly edited episode with the soundtrack and the quick cuts
Speaker 1: and things. Did Was it jarring to be on such
Speaker 1: a popular show when you were struggling at home? Or
Speaker 1: was it? Was it like a great escape for you,
Speaker 1: like to be on something so big and it hit
Speaker 1: the zeitgeist in such an incredible way. I mean it
Speaker 1: feels like you had lightning in a bottle.
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Was it? I love that it felt safe for you
Speaker 1: to go to work. Yeah, But do you think it
Speaker 1: made you feel like you had to perform a little
Speaker 1: more in your life? Or no?
Speaker 3: Well, I already was because I was hiding a pretty
Speaker 3: significant diagnosis of MS. So I think what it really
Speaker 3: hit me the hardest when the show ended because I
Speaker 3: was already in the groove of Meadow. I knew her,
Speaker 3: I got her, she was second nature. I mean it's
Speaker 3: ten years, you know. I mean she was literally in
Speaker 3: my body, in my soul, in my breath like it
Speaker 3: was easy to slip into her. But in my personal life,
Speaker 3: I was starting to pretend all the time I was
Speaker 3: covering up, I was being somebody that I wasn't. I
Speaker 3: was lying, I was hiding. And so when the show
Speaker 3: was over and I started auditioning again and putting myself
Speaker 3: out there, I couldn't be real. I wasn't doing good
Speaker 3: work because I had no idea how to be authentic
Speaker 3: in my own life. So how the hell am I
Speaker 3: going to be authentic in my work? And so it
Speaker 3: was like it was another ten years of a real struggle.
Speaker 3: I got to do and be part of wonderful projects,
Speaker 3: and every once in a while I could get in
Speaker 3: a flow, but like it was very difficult for me
Speaker 3: because and not because it was, oh, I'm I'm doing
Speaker 3: projects that are not, you know, regarded like sopranos. I
Speaker 3: mean that, like you said, was lightning in a bottle,
Speaker 3: and I'm never gonna like try to achieve that again.
Speaker 3: But it just felt like maybe I don't know how
Speaker 3: to do this. Maybe it was just like a fluke
Speaker 3: that I got that because I was just so all
Speaker 3: over the place in my personal life that I and
Speaker 3: I was no longer a kid, and I didn't have
Speaker 3: the extra care and people weren't true that, like they
Speaker 3: were ready for me to be a grown up as
Speaker 3: they should have and show up and do my stuff,
Speaker 3: and I just I was lost. I was completely lost.
Speaker 3: And that was a really really hard transition for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and I think.
Speaker 1: I think that's something we don't get to talk about
Speaker 1: a lot, you know, the the incredible gift of playing
Speaker 1: someone for ten years. When you talk about how it
Speaker 1: felt to play metal, that's how it felt for me
Speaker 1: to play Brook Davis. It was like she's a part
Speaker 1: of me. It feels like I have a sister that
Speaker 1: I don't actually have, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And.
Speaker 1: It's so jarring to try to get someone out of
Speaker 1: your body so you can make room for someone else.
Speaker 1: And if you have stuff going on where you feel
Speaker 1: like you have to be the professional everyone expects, the
Speaker 1: performing can actually take you out of authentically performing on
Speaker 1: camera and it's like a weird self exploration that you
Speaker 1: have to do, and nobody teaches us to do it.
Speaker 1: We just have to learn it by doing. It's just
Speaker 1: so strange and surreal. So hold on because when we
Speaker 1: think about the ten years you did the show you
Speaker 1: started at sixteen. Do I have it right that you
Speaker 1: got diagnosed at twenty?
Speaker 3: Yep?
Speaker 1: Okay, so halfway through the show, essentially you get this diagnosis.
Speaker 1: Did you tell anyone there or were you like I
Speaker 1: can't tell a soul and you just had like a
Speaker 1: family member or a doctor. How did you juggle this?
Speaker 3: So my parents and my fiance at the time were
Speaker 3: in the when I found out the news. So I
Speaker 3: had been diagnosed with lymes disease at nineteen. It's still
Speaker 3: sort of this question whether it was a misdiagnosis or
Speaker 3: could that have woken up a dormant MSG And we'll
Speaker 3: never know. I'm I'm done trying to figure that out.
Speaker 3: I'm just moving forward. So I had had this kind
Speaker 3: of flare of similar symptoms that I had had the
Speaker 3: year prior. So I had gone to the hospital just
Speaker 3: for some testing, not expecting anything. So my parents, like
Speaker 3: I said, were with me and my fiance and I
Speaker 3: was told this news. And I think it was like
Speaker 3: either the next day or a few days later. I
Speaker 3: had had my cast physical. Before you know, you start
Speaker 3: each job, you kind of go to this doctor and they,
Speaker 3: you know, give a general physical and they're like, all right,
Speaker 3: you're well enough to work great. And I had gone
Speaker 3: to him because I didn't know what to do, and
Speaker 3: I said, I I think I just got diagnosed with MS.
Speaker 3: And he's like, uh, yeah, I don't think I think you
Speaker 3: should tell anybody about that. And I'm not going to
Speaker 3: put this down. You know, I think that you know,
Speaker 3: nobody was talking about it back then. I didn't know anybody.
Speaker 3: I had never really even heard of the disease, and
Speaker 3: nobody in our industry, especially, you know, was was working
Speaker 3: or talking about anything like that. This is a really
Speaker 3: long time ago. So I just followed that advice because
Speaker 3: I also wasn't that symptomatic at the time, so it
Speaker 3: wasn't it just wasn't something that I thought about or
Speaker 3: that I had to think about all the time. And
Speaker 3: so no, I told no one. I told absolutely no
Speaker 3: one the very last season I started having So I
Speaker 3: should back up a little. I went through divorced, I
Speaker 3: got married and went through divorce, and what was really hard,
Speaker 3: I wasn't even telling anybody about that. One day, literally
Speaker 3: in the makeup trailer, I think the makeup girl was like,
Speaker 3: we haven't seen you know AJ around. How's he doing
Speaker 3: and I just started bawling because I just couldn't hold
Speaker 3: it in. And I remember them all coming around me,
Speaker 3: and I remember in that moment, I was sitting in
Speaker 3: my hair and makeup chair and I had the hair
Speaker 3: and makeup team around me, and I don't remember who
Speaker 3: else was in the trailer, maybe Eadie because it was
Speaker 3: always her night, early in the morning. And everyone was
Speaker 3: just wrapping their arms around me. And I remember thinking,
Speaker 3: you can tell them, you can tell them, you can
Speaker 3: tell them, and I just I just couldn't do it.
Speaker 3: I just was so scared. I'd already told them one secret,
Speaker 3: I couldn't share two.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And so the stress of the divorce really took its
Speaker 3: toll on me, as it would on anybody. And I'm
Speaker 3: twenty four years old, and I started having these symptoms
Speaker 3: like hold, I couldn't hold my bladder, having to feel
Speaker 3: like you have to like rush to the bathroom. So
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, we would be doing a take
Speaker 3: and I'd be like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I gotta
Speaker 3: go pee, and they would be like, what the f
Speaker 3: what is going on with her?
Speaker 2: You know? Yeah?
Speaker 3: And Jim pulled me aside one day and he was like,
Speaker 3: what's going on. I can see that something's happening, and
Speaker 3: I felt like tears welling up in my eyes. And
Speaker 3: he was just the most like loving, gentle presence. It's
Speaker 3: just there's not enough words to describe him.
Speaker 2: And I told.
Speaker 3: Him and I said, I'm so fucking scared. I don't
Speaker 3: know what to do. And he's like, so I remember,
Speaker 3: I'm putting his like big paw on my shoulder and
Speaker 3: he's like, whatever you need, I'm not going to tell anyone,
Speaker 3: but whatever you need, you let me know. We never
Speaker 3: talked about it again. I remember then about a month later,
Speaker 3: we were doing one of our photo shoots and Edie
Speaker 3: confided in me that she had been fighting breast cancer
Speaker 3: at that time, and she showed me that she had
Speaker 3: been wearing a wig, and I couldn't believe that I
Speaker 3: didn't know, and I was looking at her and I
Speaker 3: saw myself like, oh my god, you just shot this
Speaker 3: whole season and were fighting cancer and I didn't know.
Speaker 3: And so that was the moment that I told her.
Speaker 3: And then I told Ayita Taturo, who played my aunt
Speaker 3: on the show, one time when her and I went
Speaker 3: to lunch, and remember I feeling a relief that just
Speaker 3: some people knew at work, like some people knew I
Speaker 3: didn't have to talk about it again. We didn't really
Speaker 3: discuss it with each other. But it was just a
Speaker 3: small bit of comfort that for those last two seasons
Speaker 3: I had these three people that God forbid anything happened.
Speaker 3: I knew somebody understood what was going on with me. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and it's very poetic, but the very very last time
Speaker 3: I was ever able to run physically was when I
Speaker 3: shot my very last shot, which is the very last
Speaker 3: time you ever see Metow when she's walking running across
Speaker 3: the street, which is crazy, Like, my body just held
Speaker 3: on just long enough for me to finish that job.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I just I didn't know how it would
Speaker 3: be received. I had also felt already like such a
Speaker 3: burden on that show, like I had an eating disorder
Speaker 3: in the beginning, I had lime. Then I got married,
Speaker 3: and then I got divorce, and I was like, I
Speaker 3: just felt like it was probably gonna be like, oh,
Speaker 3: another thing with this girl, you know. I just I
Speaker 3: couldn't help but feel that way. And so God then
Speaker 3: telling them I had a mess, Like what would that mean?
Speaker 3: They'd had had in my head? They would have had
Speaker 3: to fire me and then, you know, floundering, Like I said,
Speaker 3: once the show was over, the way I was, I mean,
Speaker 3: there's no way that I could ever even then, on
Speaker 3: top of that, tell people what I was dealing with,
Speaker 3: you know, I just it just felt like the right decision.
Speaker 3: I don't think it was, but it gave me sixteen
Speaker 3: years to begin my journey of acceptance with it. It
Speaker 3: gave me time to see what this disease would mean
Speaker 3: for me and my body, which is hard. It manifests
Speaker 3: differently for everyone, So it gave me the time I
Speaker 3: think that I needed to figure out how to set
Speaker 3: the boundaries that I needed and how to speak about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, and I think that's what you're speaking to right
Speaker 1: now is so profound, and it is something a lot
Speaker 1: of people don't have to deal with when you are
Speaker 1: such a public person, whether it's a diagnosis, a divorce,
Speaker 1: you know, any stage in your personal evolution. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: know what an example you can set. You know, you
Speaker 1: can be a safe harbor for people by talking openly,
Speaker 1: and you also have to learn to be a safe
Speaker 1: harbor for yourself before you can do it for anybody else.
Speaker 1: And so you know, there's like a there's a real
Speaker 1: there's a both.
Speaker 2: And in that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And some people, I'm sure, would say you should
Speaker 1: never have to talk about it, and some people would.
Speaker 2: Say you should have told everybody right away.
Speaker 1: And it's like enough, the only voice that actually matters
Speaker 1: here is yours. And you did it the best way
Speaker 1: you knew how, and you did it while coping with
Speaker 1: all of the pressure that people in our industry have
Speaker 1: to cope with, but certainly that young women have to
Speaker 1: cope with, which is, you know, men are allowed to
Speaker 1: fail up, be imperfect, have addiction, get divorced, get other
Speaker 1: people pregnant, do whatever crazy shit they do. But the
Speaker 1: minute a woman does anything that's like less than perfect,
Speaker 1: she's a pariah.
Speaker 2: And so you know, it's like.
Speaker 1: A particular brand of nonsense we go through. And yet
Speaker 1: you've arrived in this place where you have survived all
Speaker 1: these things, where you have thrived through these things, where
Speaker 1: you have built this big, beautiful life life, and you
Speaker 1: have chosen to share. Yeah, I'm really glad you shared
Speaker 1: on your own terms. Thanks, And how how has that?
Speaker 1: How was that shift? I mean it did it feel
Speaker 1: like leaping and not being able to see the net below? You?
Speaker 1: Or were the sixteen years kind of enough that you
Speaker 1: felt ready to take that public step, like, yeah, what
Speaker 1: is that?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 3: You know, in hindsight, I think that those sixteen years
Speaker 3: mainly were what the biggest takeaway for me was how
Speaker 3: much I could trust other people because right when I
Speaker 3: told you, like I was kind of raised to be
Speaker 3: told that I couldn't, especially women. The group of women
Speaker 3: that I had around me makes me so emotional to
Speaker 3: think about that, like held this secret for me and
Speaker 3: covered up for me and held me and pushed me
Speaker 3: and sat with me and cried with me and made
Speaker 3: me talk about the hard stuff because I always wanted
Speaker 3: to be the strong, positive one and never talk about
Speaker 3: it like. They are the ones that got me through
Speaker 3: those sixteen years, no doubt, and so being able to
Speaker 3: build that safety net of community around myself that I
Speaker 3: had never felt in my life, that I so desperately
Speaker 3: always wanted, I think is what gave me the strength
Speaker 3: to ultimately say I have MS. I wasn't expecting like
Speaker 3: the world to stop. I mean, like, you know, maybe
Speaker 3: for somebody would glance for a minute, I'm like, oh wow,
Speaker 3: But it was a big moment for me because I
Speaker 3: didn't have to. I was starting to harbor feelings of
Speaker 3: shame around it, and you know, when you hold a
Speaker 3: secret for so long, you can't help but sort of
Speaker 3: have these ugly feelings around it. And the catalyst, which
Speaker 3: is super weird to get me to finally because my
Speaker 3: friends at that point, and I had also told my
Speaker 3: representatives because I was also at work. Now it had
Speaker 3: physically manifested the point where you could see that something
Speaker 3: was up with my walking, and I would I had
Speaker 3: all these little angels around me sometimes, like I did
Speaker 3: this pilot once and there was a stunt guy that
Speaker 3: could see that I was having struggling and we were
Speaker 3: in a group and we were supposed to go across
Speaker 3: the street really fast, and he's like, hey, I'm just
Speaker 3: going to grab your shirt and hold you while we
Speaker 3: move so you can keep up with us. And I
Speaker 3: was like, for sure that was a guardian angel because
Speaker 3: I was freaking out inside. How I was going to
Speaker 3: do this. I had to get this scan and it
Speaker 3: looked like I had had a herniated disc, so I
Speaker 3: was like, oh my god, this is great. I can
Speaker 3: blame my walking on my herniated discs. How I can
Speaker 3: get through this next job because you know, people start saying,
Speaker 3: what's up, what's going wrong, what's wrong, what's wrong? Sorry
Speaker 3: to lose track for a second. So I had this
Speaker 3: friend who had seen thishypnotists. It was really helping her
Speaker 3: lose weight. But he was like the hypnotist of the
Speaker 3: stars and it'd help, you know. I think Oprah had
Speaker 3: seen him and he helped Matt Damon quit smoking and
Speaker 3: this and that. She's like, Jame, I don't know why,
Speaker 3: but like, go see this guy. Maybe he could help
Speaker 3: you with your feelings about yourself and this disease. And
Speaker 3: I remember I was walking up the driveway to go
Speaker 3: see him, and I was looking down as I was walking,
Speaker 3: and he said to me, why why are you looking
Speaker 3: down when you're walking towards me right now? And I
Speaker 3: said because I'm embarrassed and I don't like to watch
Speaker 3: people watch me walk. And he was like, okay, let's
Speaker 3: go in. And I remember we talked for like two
Speaker 3: minutes and then he put me under hypnosis. I don't
Speaker 3: know what he said to me. I don't know what
Speaker 3: would happen. But I came home that day and I
Speaker 3: said to my my husband, I said, I think I'm
Speaker 3: ready to talk about this, and he's like, what what,
Speaker 3: Like they had been begging for so long, and I
Speaker 3: was like, I think I'm ready. I feel safe with
Speaker 3: the group of people that I have around me and
Speaker 3: my life that if nothing ever comes my way again,
Speaker 3: I am fine, I am blessed, I am great. I
Speaker 3: have more than I could ever want from this life.
Speaker 3: Like I'm going to take I'm going to take this
Speaker 3: chance and see what happens. And it was a beautiful, scary,
Speaker 3: wonderful moment when I did. It was you know, whenever
Speaker 3: you share your vulnerability, I cannot imagine anybody that just
Speaker 3: doesn't feel the love that can come back at them.
Speaker 3: And I did tenfold and it was beautiful. And I
Speaker 3: was very surprised too to hear like so many people
Speaker 3: in all walks of life, in all different careers and
Speaker 3: occupations were hiding it as well, like people reaching out
Speaker 3: to me saying, yeah, I'm afraid to tell my boss
Speaker 3: or I'm afraid to tell my friends, because you're so
Speaker 3: afraid of people limiting you, judging you. And like I
Speaker 3: had said, I really needed to also figure figure out
Speaker 3: what this disease was in my body because I don't
Speaker 3: want to go with like I don't know, Like I'm
Speaker 3: twenty two years in, I know, I know, which gives
Speaker 3: me the confidence to fulfill all the roles in my life.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: But what the also that moment began was my it
Speaker 3: It was actually it was as if I had just
Speaker 3: gotten diagnosed that day, like I'm like, okay, now I'm
Speaker 3: going to know what it's like to live with MS
Speaker 3: and have people know. And there was a really long
Speaker 3: adjustment period of me still not wanting to ask for help,
Speaker 3: me still sort of moving through life the way I
Speaker 3: had been for those sixteen years. It took some time.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's really profound that it felt like a rediagnosis. Yeah,
Speaker 1: or like a new thing. And now a word from
Speaker 1: our sponsors. You coped in secret for almost twenty years, yeah,
Speaker 1: and now you have all these years under your belt, which,
Speaker 1: in a sense you're saying, felt like starting over where
Speaker 1: people know. Do you find little shifts like do you
Speaker 1: no longer feel shame about the days you're physically presenting?
Speaker 1: Do you feel more comfortable asking for help? Like how
Speaker 1: does the adjustment because as you say, you know what
Speaker 1: this disease is in your particular body, how do you
Speaker 1: think the adjustment has shifted your experience.
Speaker 2: Now that you know everyone.
Speaker 3: Knows, I still hate how I walk. I still I'm
Speaker 3: working on that. I still get frustrated. I still get
Speaker 3: sad and mad and feel bad. But I let people
Speaker 3: help me and I talk about the hard stuff that
Speaker 3: I never did before. You know, I had teamed up
Speaker 3: with Novartis and created this like three step guide that
Speaker 3: we have. It's at reframing ms dot com. Because what
Speaker 3: I have found in these moments is that these like
Speaker 3: three steps that I constantly come back to have really
Speaker 3: been helpful for me. And the first step is reflect
Speaker 3: And that means just like sitting with those really hard
Speaker 3: feelings that we always want to push away, like the grief,
Speaker 3: the grief for my old body, the grief for my
Speaker 3: old abilities, the sadness, the depression, and then reflect like
Speaker 3: reflect like Okay, this is this is part of my life.
Speaker 3: But I there's still a lot of things I want
Speaker 3: to do, Like there's still a lot of I'm a
Speaker 3: mom and of two active little boys. I still want
Speaker 3: to be very present in their lives. I have a
Speaker 3: husband that I love and I want to go in
Speaker 3: adventures with. And I still love to act, and I
Speaker 3: still want to do that. So then the third step
Speaker 3: is reframe, like how do I do those things? What
Speaker 3: do I need to accomplish those things? Like at work,
Speaker 3: I'm so grateful the past couple of jobs that I've
Speaker 3: had have really allowed me to just settle into the
Speaker 3: creative and not worry about the physical because Sophia like
Speaker 3: probably for twenty years, all I cared about was getting
Speaker 3: through the day physically, and like the dialogue and the
Speaker 3: actual creative was like so on the back burner. So
Speaker 3: one of my last jobs like to say like, yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, if you can park my trailer like a
Speaker 3: little bit closer and just have a chair nearby in
Speaker 3: between takes or scenes so I can kind of sit.
Speaker 3: And then it just became this like well oiled machine,
Speaker 3: and I realized I wasn't a burden, I wasn an extra,
Speaker 3: I wasn't a problem, and I kept getting asked back
Speaker 3: and then they made me a series regular, and then
Speaker 3: I shot this other pilot, which unfortunately never went where.
Speaker 3: After I got the role, people were like, you know what,
Speaker 3: we're super inspired by you, Jamie. What if this character
Speaker 3: gets diagnosed with MS in this show and we go
Speaker 3: through this journey with her and I just like these
Speaker 3: are things I never thought possible. But also because of
Speaker 3: the way it's affected me, I am finally bringing out
Speaker 3: a cane, which is like you saw me at Ryan's wedding.
Speaker 3: That was like one of the first times that I
Speaker 3: brought it out with me because normally I would always
Speaker 3: hang on my husband or friends. And I'm like, you
Speaker 3: know what I'm like, So I'm gonna give myself the
Speaker 3: support that I need because when I wasn't it just
Speaker 3: like I don't know you, like I was saying, I
Speaker 3: felt shame, and I felt less valuable and I felt
Speaker 3: like less of a person, and it took a lot
Speaker 3: of Like the help that I'm saying is the talking,
Speaker 3: the being vulnerable with my friends, of being like Jamie
Speaker 3: like we don't see this at all. They've helped me
Speaker 3: figure out how to go to concerts with them. They're like,
Speaker 3: we will drop you off, we will go park. You know.
Speaker 3: They they make they have forced me to still participate
Speaker 3: in my life. And because of all these experiences, which
Speaker 3: I think is a lot of the reason I'm gonna
Speaker 3: believe is why this is part of my life. Because
Speaker 3: of the position that I'm in and the experiences I've
Speaker 3: had of being in secret and having to figure out
Speaker 3: and be creative to share with other people now because
Speaker 3: to know, especially since we've created our podcast Messy like
Speaker 3: to connect with the MS community in particular, to be
Speaker 3: able to share with these people what they're going through
Speaker 3: and for them to be feel seen. For so long,
Speaker 3: just thought I was the only one in the world
Speaker 3: that felt this way or was going through something like this,
Speaker 3: And I'm so honored to be able to share my
Speaker 3: experiences now because nobody should ever have to go through
Speaker 3: that or feel that way.
Speaker 1: That's the thing, right is whatever it is, and you
Speaker 1: know you're bringing up such a universal experiences, whether it's
Speaker 1: MS or any diagnosis, whether it's divorce, yeah, anything that
Speaker 1: sort of undoes your plans. There is so much shame
Speaker 1: when you stay stuck. And the minute you begin to
Speaker 1: cultivate community, you realize you're not alone. You realize that
Speaker 1: this thing that you're going through is meant to teach
Speaker 1: you something and might really be meant to make you
Speaker 1: a more whole version of yourself. Like absolutely, isn't it
Speaker 1: interesting that you rediscovered your creativity once you let everybody
Speaker 1: in on your secret? And I think about that, like
Speaker 1: the big life shift for me, you know, I'm the
Speaker 1: divorce subject in the last year is like, oh, when
Speaker 1: I was trying to act like everything was perfect, I
Speaker 1: literally lost myself. I felt like I became a paper doll,
Speaker 1: Like I just I went flat. And then I started
Speaker 1: to let people in and I realized how many other
Speaker 1: people I knew were going through it at the same time,
Speaker 1: and suddenly I became like three dimensional again. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: everything feels different, including my relationship to my work. That's great,
Speaker 1: and it's so surreal, and like, I love hearing you
Speaker 1: talk about it, you know, what you and Christina are doing,
Speaker 1: and also the way you talk about what you and
Speaker 1: your husband do with your boys, Like you're doing this
Speaker 1: big thing in the public, and you're also doing this
Speaker 1: big thing in your home. And I'm curious, you know,
Speaker 1: as a person who doesn't have kids yet but has
Speaker 1: always like desired to do that, I wonder, how like
Speaker 1: when I would imagine, you know, like you said your
Speaker 1: boys are rambunctious, Yeah, you guys are, you know, having
Speaker 1: to run around after two of them and you've you've
Speaker 1: got everything going on. And then you and Christina are
Speaker 1: talking about your experiences with MS and you know, for
Speaker 1: our friends at home. Messy the wonderful podcast that Jamielyn
Speaker 1: started is with Christina Applegate, who we all you know
Speaker 1: know and love and you know who just crushed it
Speaker 1: at the Oscars this year. God, she made me laugh
Speaker 1: so hard, just the best And did it Was there
Speaker 1: any part of you that was nervous to undertake this
Speaker 1: other vertical of work or did it just feel like
Speaker 1: the next right thing?
Speaker 3: You mean, Messy?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: No, Messy has been the most fulfilling thing ever work wise.
Speaker 3: Like this came from Christina and I having for over
Speaker 3: a year really long phone conversations where we would laugh.
Speaker 3: I mean, nobody makes me laugh harder than that woman.
Speaker 3: We cry, and we were being vulnerable and honest in
Speaker 3: ways that I had never been. Yeah, and she she
Speaker 3: needed a light at the end of the tunnel a
Speaker 3: little bit, which I think I was able to give her.
Speaker 3: And I needed somebody to be like, you're gonna say
Speaker 3: this is hard today. You're going to say that what
Speaker 3: you just did was not easy. You know, You're gonna
Speaker 3: say what your feeling is, it's unfair. Like she gave
Speaker 3: me the permission to have to take the time to
Speaker 3: have those feelings and so these conversations like we're so
Speaker 3: wonderful and we were getting to know each other and
Speaker 3: one day she said to me, Jane, I think we
Speaker 3: need to put these out there. And I said, are
Speaker 3: you sure? And She's like, yeah, this is this is
Speaker 3: the time. I am done. I have played the role
Speaker 3: of Christina Applegate for fifty years and I'm done playing
Speaker 3: or I'm ready to be me. I'm ready to put
Speaker 3: it all out there. And it's just so inspiring to
Speaker 3: watch her just own everything she's feeling unapologetically, and you know,
Speaker 3: it's for us to be able to reflect and and
Speaker 3: commiserate and support each other. It's I think it's also
Speaker 3: just a beautiful representation of female friendships and what they
Speaker 3: can do for us. And also I think that you're
Speaker 3: gonna you're on this journey of two women that and you,
Speaker 3: like you said, we all can relate to this. Are
Speaker 3: having to accept something that's hard, accepting a hand that
Speaker 3: was doubt that you wish you didn't have, but you'd
Speaker 3: do and there's nothing you can do about that. And
Speaker 3: what we are doing with that with that acceptance, where
Speaker 3: are we going now? What are we You know, you're
Speaker 3: you're really catching us in two different stages, but also
Speaker 3: in this pivotal moment where her and I both are like,
Speaker 3: screw it, we're gonna we're gonna push through, and we're
Speaker 3: gonna see what life has to offer. She calls us
Speaker 3: to save the babies, like you know, and makes and
Speaker 3: maybe cracks the best jokes about it. But it's just
Speaker 3: it just feels like it was the most organic. It
Speaker 3: came together so organically and in such a way that
Speaker 3: you know, when you're like feel like you're just like
Speaker 3: riding this wave and you have no control, but you
Speaker 3: know it's right. It's just it's just one of those
Speaker 3: moments where like, we have no expectations, We have no
Speaker 3: like grandiose dreams of like how much money will make
Speaker 3: or where it will go, or what we will do.
Speaker 3: We are just putting ourselves and our hearts out there
Speaker 3: and just trusting that it's it's what we're supposed to
Speaker 3: be doing right now.
Speaker 1: Well, what it sounds like you're describing is really being
Speaker 1: in flow. Yeah, And it's so interesting to me to
Speaker 1: hear you talk about it this way because you're also
Speaker 1: talking about the fact that she really helped you write
Speaker 1: your own permission Slip to have all of your feelings,
Speaker 1: not just the perfect ones, yep, not just the nice
Speaker 1: ones yep. And I think that is something and wherever
Speaker 1: the culture comes from. And I'm sure it's worse for
Speaker 1: women who do what we do for work because there
Speaker 1: is a lot of performance to it, and God forbid
Speaker 1: you have a bad day or say something's hard, people
Speaker 1: tell you you're ungrateful the horror, so you know, you
Speaker 1: really kind of divest from your anger or your frustration,
Speaker 1: and to be able to reclaim that, I think is
Speaker 1: actually really healing, especially for women. Yes, whether that's around
Speaker 1: relationship or disability or.
Speaker 2: Any of it.
Speaker 1: And I love that as you are reclaiming that other
Speaker 1: side of yourself that maybe you used to think you
Speaker 1: had to hide or be ashamed of, you're also like, oh,
Speaker 1: what's bringing me the most joy? Is like a full
Speaker 1: three dimensional honesty.
Speaker 2: My friend.
Speaker 3: Yes, And it's and it kind of goes back to
Speaker 3: that letter that I was writing myself, where it's like you,
Speaker 3: you know you always it's interesting that life gave you something,
Speaker 3: especially in your body, that is it is the most
Speaker 3: imperfect now and you love yourself the most that you
Speaker 3: ever have in this imperfect body. And I truly do
Speaker 3: not know who I would be without MS, and I
Speaker 3: don't want to know. As much as it breaks my
Speaker 3: heart to struggle physically the way that I do, I
Speaker 3: just I know this was meant to be part of
Speaker 3: my journey and I am. I'm grateful for it. I
Speaker 3: really really am. And I'm and I'm. It is an
Speaker 3: honor to be able to have the platform that we
Speaker 3: do to share because it is healing exactly what you said,
Speaker 3: it is. Healing used to be so heavily focused for
Speaker 3: me on the body, right, I would always see healers
Speaker 3: and this and that I would I have, I have
Speaker 3: tried it all. Yeah, and healing has nothing to do
Speaker 3: with my physical body anymore. To me. It's it's healing
Speaker 3: my heart, myself, my soul, who I am, and understanding
Speaker 3: that I am a perfectly imperfect human being exactly as
Speaker 3: I should be. I am loved no matter what I'm
Speaker 3: coming into a room with, and that is okay, And
Speaker 3: it's it's liberating. It is liberating to feel like I'm
Speaker 3: not judging myself all the time. You know, I'm giving
Speaker 3: myself grace to be all the colors.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, it's so, it's just so cool.
Speaker 3: Oh, well, you know, it's what what we I wish
Speaker 3: for you and anyone, and it's and it again, I
Speaker 3: think it's like, really, what we're trying to do with
Speaker 3: me is just really, you know, share our experiences so
Speaker 3: you can hear yourself in our words, you know.
Speaker 1: Totally and now a word from our wonderful sponsors.
Speaker 2: So how do you, guys, how do you.
Speaker 1: Sort of build the podcast because obviously you co host
Speaker 1: it together. You're talking about your journeys which are incredibly
Speaker 1: unique yet very universal. So how do you pick guests
Speaker 1: or conversation topics or like.
Speaker 3: How did the two of you do this? It's messy.
Speaker 3: It's like there's no format. It's not very structured. When
Speaker 3: it comes to our solo episodes, her and I will
Speaker 3: text each other a lot during the week with our
Speaker 3: producer Alison, Alison Bresnik, by the way, who says, hi,
Speaker 3: one of my favorite he's the best, and we'll be like,
Speaker 3: you know, for instance, we have an episode coming up
Speaker 3: on Body Image and it is so good only because like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, I'm so proud of Christina and like
Speaker 3: just where she led this episode. But it was like,
Speaker 3: you know what, I felt insecure at the Emmys, and
Speaker 3: I want to talk about it more like great And
Speaker 3: it was just an hour of two women just being
Speaker 3: open about body image and body issues and how we
Speaker 3: fell in all the different ways and our past eating
Speaker 3: disorders and things like that. You know. When we had
Speaker 3: Edie Falco on, it was an opportunity for me to
Speaker 3: hear how she perceived me during that time and it
Speaker 3: was just the most beautiful, healing, lovely conversation. We have
Speaker 3: Martin short on and it's sixteen minutes of him and
Speaker 3: Christina laughing and reminiscing, and at the end of it,
Speaker 3: I can look at Christina and go, you just had
Speaker 3: an hour remembering who you are and MS does not
Speaker 3: define you and you are still that funny, hilarious, loved actress.
Speaker 3: It runs the gamut, you know. It's really kind of
Speaker 3: all over the place and specific and not specific. It's
Speaker 3: just you're really listening in on an intimate conversation between
Speaker 3: her and I that has not a lot of planning
Speaker 3: going into it.
Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah, I think that that's actually one
Speaker 1: of the coolest things in this line of work. What
Speaker 1: we get to do is really you just get to
Speaker 1: follow a thread and be curious about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know, I think I went to India
Speaker 3: with Ryan, our friend Ryan last year to shoot this
Speaker 3: documentary and we lived at this ashrum, and the main
Speaker 3: takeaway and the thing that just kept getting repeated from
Speaker 3: all the beautiful people that we met there is just
Speaker 3: stay curious. Just stay curious about everything about life, about circumstances,
Speaker 3: about people, about yourself. It's really, it's really, it's really
Speaker 3: the key to life.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So when you think about that, you know, all of
Speaker 1: these lessons you've learned, and this twenty plus years of
Speaker 1: this layer of yourself being part of your experience, your family,
Speaker 1: your work, you know, all of it. When you look
Speaker 1: out from this place that feels like you're in so
Speaker 1: much flow and like you're in such a beautiful position,
Speaker 1: what when you think about, I don't know the rest
Speaker 1: of the year, say, what feels like you're work in progress?
Speaker 2: Right now?
Speaker 3: I am loosening my grip on life. I used to feel,
Speaker 3: especially you know, in our career, in our industry, like
Speaker 3: you feel like you want to control as much as
Speaker 3: you can because you have so much little control. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and I'm just loosening my grip and I want to
Speaker 3: just kind of trust what's going to continue to come
Speaker 3: in and out, and when an opportunity rises, I will
Speaker 3: work hard like I always do, and I will show
Speaker 3: up in the way that I need to. But just
Speaker 3: knowing that what is meant for me, what is meant
Speaker 3: for me, and what's not is not And I have
Speaker 3: that community and that safety net around me, and I'm
Speaker 3: just this season of life. It's the worst my body
Speaker 3: has ever been, but the best that I have ever been.
Speaker 3: And I feel it's crazy that I'm I'm also the
Speaker 3: happiest I've ever been in that moment. And it took
Speaker 3: a lot of work and a lot of like not work,
Speaker 3: do you know what I mean? A lot of work
Speaker 3: and a lot of trust and a lot of letting go.
Speaker 3: And I'm just really grateful for it all.
Speaker 2: I'm so happy to hear that. Thanks. Thank you for
Speaker 2: joining me today.
Speaker 3: Oh thank you for having me. It's so nice to
Speaker 3: talk to you.