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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well? How about you?

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Speaker 3: I am I'm hanging in there good.

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Speaker 2: I have a big decision. Maybe you can help me

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Speaker 2: make it. I have a big decision to make.

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Speaker 3: Oh okay.

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Speaker 2: I am considering getting contacts and I've never ever had

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Speaker 2: contacts before. And I have friends who fall asleep accidentally

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Speaker 2: with their contacts on, and it's like a horror scene

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Speaker 2: and they're crying and it's awful, and I'm scared. I

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Speaker 2: know many men of a certain age need to get glasses,

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Speaker 2: and you don't have them, and then I just found

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Speaker 2: out you have contacts.

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Speaker 3: What do you mean in a certain age put one

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Speaker 3: of my feet in the grave. No, that's you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know, I had perfect vision up until really maybe

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Speaker 3: my early forties to mid forties, and then ultimately had

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Speaker 3: to wear glasses. And then after I retired and quite

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Speaker 3: frankly having to do some of the TV work that

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Speaker 3: I did, wearing glasses became problematic. Yeah, you know, because

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Speaker 3: editors are constantly having to sink different edits up, and

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm constantly taking my glasses off and on.

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Speaker 3: And I did a show it was DNA of Murder.

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Speaker 3: I did an episode with Lonnie Coombs, who also wears glasses.

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Speaker 3: But you know, we would have to put glasses on

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Speaker 3: to look at this laptop screen that was sitting in

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Speaker 3: front of us for the segment, and then when we

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Speaker 3: would talk to each other, we're constantly taking our glasses off,

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Speaker 3: and so we're constantly putting glasses on and off and

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Speaker 3: driving the editor's nuts. And then I recognized I needed

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Speaker 3: to man up and get contacts. And I have always

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Speaker 3: been scared to touch my eyes. That is the one

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Speaker 3: thing I can't handle.

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Speaker 1: That's a phobia.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if it's a phobia or not. I

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Speaker 3: know it's something that I just did not want to do,

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Speaker 3: you know, And I have seen the most horrific things,

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Speaker 3: but like when I'm in the morgue, the one thing

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Speaker 3: I will not watch is when the pathologist needs to

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Speaker 3: interact with the deceased's eyes. I don't like that. So

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Speaker 3: getting contacts was scary. It took me a while to

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Speaker 3: learn how to take the contacts out. Putting them in

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Speaker 3: was pretty easy, but taking them out was hard. In fact,

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Speaker 3: I had to go in to my optometrist one morning

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Speaker 3: to get them out because I couldn't. I kindn't figure

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Speaker 3: it out. I was so scared that I just go

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Speaker 3: so hard that my eyeball would be rolling around in

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Speaker 3: the sink when I was done. But eventually it becomes routine.

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Speaker 3: I don't think there's anything you need to be scared of.

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Speaker 3: I have slept through the night with my contacts in.

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Speaker 3: There's just soft contacts, just these dailies, and your eyes

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Speaker 3: do get scratchy, but I also find they kind of

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Speaker 3: dry out and that makes it easier in the morning

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Speaker 3: to be able to pull them out. So I really

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Speaker 3: haven't had any nightmare scenario. Once a contact kind of

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Speaker 3: floated up above the eyelid and I had to fish

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Speaker 3: it out.

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Speaker 1: Paul, you have to stop. This is all nightmare. You're

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Speaker 1: not helping me one little bit.

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Speaker 3: But the convenience, you know, I will say, it is

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Speaker 3: nice to be able to go through the day without,

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Speaker 3: you know, carrying my glasses around, putting them on if

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Speaker 3: I want to look at my phone or you know,

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Speaker 3: just read something on the computer screen. So the convenience

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Speaker 3: is there. The weird thing with my prescription is I've

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Speaker 3: got what's called monovision, So my my left eye has

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Speaker 3: the prescription to allow me to look at the computer

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Speaker 3: screen and see it clearly, and my right eye is

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Speaker 3: for distance, and so both eyes. When you're looking through

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Speaker 3: both eyes at the same time, it's a little weird

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Speaker 3: and the brain kind of adjusts. So if I look

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Speaker 3: like if I want to look at the mountains, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's my right eye that pass focus. And what I'm

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Speaker 3: having to look at you on the computer screen right now,

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Speaker 3: it's my left eye, whereas my right eye you're just fuzzy.

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Speaker 2: Well, I have to wear my old glasses when I

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Speaker 2: look at you on my computer screen because my new

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Speaker 2: glasses that are progressive. You're just at the worst angle,

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Speaker 2: like you're too close for me to be on my

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Speaker 2: close ups and too far away.

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Speaker 1: It's really confusing.

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Speaker 2: So I am considering. I mean, I'm on the computer

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Speaker 2: all the time. I do a lot of sort of

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Speaker 2: like back and forth television type stuff, and the glare

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Speaker 2: of my glasses bothers me, and so I am thinking

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Speaker 2: about it.

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Speaker 1: But I might have a little bit of that fear.

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Speaker 2: I don't have a problem getting like an eyelash out

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Speaker 2: of my kid's eye, but I do have a hard

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Speaker 2: time thinking that contacts are going to be okay.

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Speaker 1: But I'm not sure you've helped. But it's more.

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Speaker 2: Information, I guess you and your dried out contacts.

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Speaker 3: You know, all I can do is provide data and

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Speaker 3: you have to make the decision yourself.

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Speaker 1: Your lack of sympathy is is a parent here? Well,

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Speaker 1: I'll let you know.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess you'll be one of the first to know,

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Speaker 2: because all of a sudden I won't be wearing my

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Speaker 2: glasses and you'll be like, what happened?

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Speaker 3: I know?

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Speaker 2: So I'm excited. Big changes ahead, big changes. That's about

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Speaker 2: as dramatic as my life gets contacts, no context.

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Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to seeing you glassless Yep.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'll let you know.

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Speaker 2: Well, I want to get into this story because it

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Speaker 2: is I think interesting when people are trying to cover

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Speaker 2: up a crime. And I think I've told you this,

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Speaker 2: you know, I interviewed a forensic chemist and we talked

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Speaker 2: about fire and how people think some magic thing happens

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Speaker 2: when you pour gasoline on someone and light it in

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Speaker 2: that it's going to completely, you know, solve all their

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Speaker 2: problems and the body is going to dissolve and that's it.

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Speaker 2: And it's not that easy to cover up a crime,

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Speaker 2: not as easy as you would think. And this is

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Speaker 2: I think an interesting sort of way and a disturbing

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Speaker 2: story at the same time. So you'll have to tell

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Speaker 2: me what you think about all this. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: a story set in the eighteen hundreds, in late eighteen

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Speaker 2: hundreds in upstate New York. So let's set the scene.

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Speaker 2: So trigger warning here. This is involving the sexual assault

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Speaker 2: and the murder of a child, a fourteen year old girl.

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Speaker 2: This is in plain Field, New York. And this is

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Speaker 2: about ten years after the end of the Civil War,

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Speaker 2: late eighteen hundreds, so eighteen seventy eight and playing field

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Speaker 2: is right in the middle of the state and we

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Speaker 2: are in a farm setting, and straight away I'm going

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Speaker 2: to ask you about farm settings because in our experience,

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Speaker 2: farm settings mean it's easy, seemingly pretty easy to get

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Speaker 2: away with stuff. Because in the eighteen hundreds farm settings,

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Speaker 2: these are people who live miles away. It's very isolated,

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Speaker 2: there are weapons everywhere. Oftentimes women are left alone because

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Speaker 2: the men go off and go into the fields. And

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Speaker 2: this makes I think people pretty vulnerable. And then the

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Speaker 2: flip side is, well, you would think they're safer, they're

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Speaker 2: not in a big city. Bad things aren't happening. I

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Speaker 2: feel like for us, a farm setting sometimes is challenging.

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Speaker 3: What do you think, Well, when you think about you know,

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Speaker 3: this is a limited witness pool. The low density population

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Speaker 3: would allow an a fender to go and commit a crime,

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Speaker 3: whether it be outside or inside. And your visual witnesses,

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Speaker 3: your audio witnesses. You know, because of the distances between

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Speaker 3: the farms, it's almost by happenstance that somebody that a

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Speaker 3: witness might be present to either see or hear the

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Speaker 3: crime being committed. If the offender is planning the crime appropriately,

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Speaker 3: so that does create challenges. And when we start talking

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Speaker 3: about this era, you know, it's not like if somebody

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Speaker 3: discovers that a crime has been committed, that law enforcement

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Speaker 3: can be notified right away. So the offender has so

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Speaker 3: much time and geography in order to be able to

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Speaker 3: escape unnoticed and separate himself from that location.

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Speaker 2: And on top of that, the law enforcement that is

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Speaker 2: there in the late eighteen hundreds in a smaller, quiet

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Speaker 2: area rule, they're not going to be experienced most of

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Speaker 2: the time in investigating these big cases though, and you know,

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Speaker 2: could take them forever to bring in somebody who's more

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Speaker 2: experienced from a bigger city, which often would happen. So

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Speaker 2: they're at a big disadvantage. And on top of that,

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Speaker 2: remember the whole bell ringing that was the emergency, as

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Speaker 2: they would ring almost like a dinner bell, and then

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Speaker 2: the neighbors would come running, and the neighbors are picking

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Speaker 2: up axes and trampling over footprints and shoe prints, and

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Speaker 2: so there's just so much opportunity for your right the

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Speaker 2: person to disappear into the woods.

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Speaker 1: I feel like we are.

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Speaker 2: Already at a disadvantage. Every single time we talk about

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Speaker 2: a murder in the eighteen hundreds in a farm setting,

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Speaker 2: so already it makes me nervous.

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Speaker 3: No, for sure, you know, but we have to work

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Speaker 3: with what we've got.

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Speaker 2: So there are three men who are involved here. There

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Speaker 2: are two farm hands. One is a twenty year old

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Speaker 2: named Myron Beele one is a thirty two year old

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Speaker 2: named Daniel Bowen, and they're both, you know, farm hands,

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Speaker 2: laborers on the farm. And the owner of the farm

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Speaker 2: is a man named William Richards. He's married and he

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Speaker 2: has as a daughter. We're going to focus right now

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Speaker 2: on Myron because he is one of the people who

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Speaker 2: makes a pretty bad discovery here. So Myron is the

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Speaker 2: twenty year old. A little bit of background on him.

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Speaker 2: He was born on a farm in playing Field, so

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Speaker 2: local boy. And if you're born on a farm, it's

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Speaker 2: not predictive of, you know, whether you're going to be

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Speaker 2: a big, burly guy or not. I guess just your

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Speaker 2: stature is your stature, and you do the best you

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Speaker 2: can on a farm.

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Speaker 1: And that's what his lot was in life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and I imagine you know, with the

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Speaker 3: type of hard labor that Myron is doing, regardless of

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Speaker 3: his stature, you know, he's probably developed a fair amount

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Speaker 3: of just functional strength. And he could be somebody who's

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Speaker 3: my size, which is kind of like the average male

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Speaker 3: size here in the United States, or he could be

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Speaker 3: a much larger guy, or even a much smaller guy.

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Speaker 3: But he likely has pretty decent functional strength. He may

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Speaker 3: not look very strong. It's not like, you know, he's

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Speaker 3: consuming protein shakes and you know, developing. You know, you

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Speaker 3: know a lot of this muscle hypertrophy from doing the

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Speaker 3: heavy lifting on the farm. But I guarantee that he's

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Speaker 3: probably fairly physically capable.

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Speaker 2: You know, when I was twelve or thirteen and I

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Speaker 2: was on my dad's farm, which I talk about sometimes,

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Speaker 2: he had.

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Speaker 1: Me doing all kinds of manual labor.

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Speaker 2: He would bring over bales of hay on a tractor

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Speaker 2: and I would grab them, you know, with their twine,

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Speaker 2: with big gloves on, and throw them up onto a pile.

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Speaker 2: And I would climb on the top of the pile

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Speaker 2: and he would throw up, you know, a hey bail

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Speaker 2: and I would grab it.

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Speaker 1: And I was young.

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Speaker 2: I was twelve or thirteen, and I was perfectly capable

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Speaker 2: of doing that. So I think growing up on a

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Speaker 2: ranch that my dad taught me how to cut wood,

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Speaker 2: and you know I used an axe from a very

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Speaker 2: young age, and I painted I would just say miles

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Speaker 2: of fences. Even though I'm sure I didn't look particularly burly,

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Speaker 2: I definitely had functional strength. So when we described Myron

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Speaker 2: as a boy or youthful looking, I definitely don't want

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Speaker 2: to discount the fact that this is somebody who has

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Speaker 2: been working now for two seasons, two years on mister

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Speaker 2: Richard's farm. So he has had a great reputation. He

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Speaker 2: was a hard worker, He could tackle all sorts of

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Speaker 2: tasks very smart. And right now this is interesting. These

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Speaker 2: are farmhands who are hoeing hops. What do you know

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Speaker 2: about hops? Because the only thing I can think about

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Speaker 2: with hops is of course beer. Are there any other

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Speaker 2: things that you know about hops? You have a quizzical

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Speaker 2: look on your face. They're an anti inflammatory.

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Speaker 3: I know that my perspective, I've looked into how beer

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Speaker 3: is made, and so I remember kind of reading about hops,

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Speaker 3: and so that really is my only I don't even

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Speaker 3: want to say that it's a knowledge base. I'm just

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Speaker 3: more aware that of how hops are used, and of

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Speaker 3: course when you drink beer or it's got a hoppy taste.

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Speaker 3: But from what I remember is that this is a

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Speaker 3: very fast growing plant that grows up like lines, and

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Speaker 3: then these wires you know, that are then it's like

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Speaker 3: a Trellis system and now you've got you know, the

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Speaker 3: actual is it the flower? I think it's the flower

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Speaker 3: that is collected. So in terms of hoeing up the hops,

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Speaker 3: it almost sounds like this is the ground preparation, you know,

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Speaker 3: to grow the hops or you know, at the end

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Speaker 3: of the season, where now they're having to take down

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Speaker 3: the plants and then get the ground ready to replant

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Speaker 3: for the next season.

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Speaker 2: Well, and what I thought was interesting is I assumed beer,

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Speaker 2: and I'm sure it was beer, but at the same time,

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Speaker 2: I didn't know that it was used medicinally by a

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Speaker 2: lot of different cultures, that Native Americans had used it

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Speaker 2: for a whole host of reasons, sleep, ladder problems, anxiety,

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Speaker 2: fever like, breast and womb problems, and it sounded almost

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Speaker 2: like a sedative, which I thought was interesting in a

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Speaker 2: murder story, that there are these two young guys out

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Speaker 2: there hoeing hops on this man's farm and we know

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Speaker 2: that a murder is coming, we.

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Speaker 1: Just don't know what.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, kind of curious to see where this goes.

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Speaker 2: Yep, so hops, there you go, one of those things

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Speaker 2: I never think about. Of course, hops need to be hoed.

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Speaker 2: I've never thought of it before. But that's just to reiterate.

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Speaker 2: These are two strong guys out there. So Myron and Daniel,

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Speaker 2: who is his coworker, are winding down for the day,

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Speaker 2: and they notice and this is in June, just to

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Speaker 2: remind everybody, this is June twenty fifth of eighteen seventy eight,

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Speaker 2: so I'm.

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Speaker 1: Sure a warm day.

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Speaker 2: And the two of them are winding down and they

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Speaker 2: notice that there is a bull running a muck on

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Speaker 2: the property, which would be alarming as someone who grew

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Speaker 2: up around bulls and currently has bulls on their property.

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Speaker 2: It's a little it's a little frightening. I'm probably somebody's

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Speaker 2: going to say, don't be frightened by bulls, but it's

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Speaker 2: hard not to be. Have you encountered a bull? I

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Speaker 2: know about the bear, but I don't know about a bull.

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Speaker 3: Hold. I didn't know yet bulls on your property on

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Speaker 3: the well.

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Speaker 2: Not in Austin, on the farm, on the family farm,

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Speaker 2: we have cows and bulls and cute little story. My

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Speaker 2: kids are in love with this donkey. You know, donkeys

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Speaker 2: need to have companion animals, and her companion animal is

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Speaker 2: a goat, okay, who is a little creepy.

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Speaker 1: I have to be honest.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the goat stares at me in a way

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Speaker 2: that the bull stares at me, But the donkey stares

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Speaker 2: at me in love with love. So that's why I'm

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Speaker 2: drawn to the donkey. It's a complicated ecosystemat this farm.

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Speaker 3: I'm learning all sorts of things. You're throwing bails of hair.

301
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Speaker 2: I know, I'm a complicated woman, I will say. So.

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Speaker 2: There's a bull running amok. This would have been frightening

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Speaker 2: for these two guys. They told each other kind of within,

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Speaker 2: trying to stay back and make sure they're not going

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Speaker 2: to get hurt, that the bull must have escaped from

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Speaker 2: one of the nearby barns on the property. And Myron

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Speaker 2: runs and immediately tries to wrangle the bull, and in

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Speaker 2: the meantime, Daniel, the other farm hand, rushes toward the barn.

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Speaker 2: He throws open the doors to the barn to figure

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Speaker 2: out out where this bull came from, and inside the

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Speaker 2: pen he finds something that he says is absolutely terrifying.

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Speaker 2: It's the dead body of the owners of the farm.

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Speaker 2: The Richard's fourteen year old daughter. Her name is Catherine

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Speaker 2: Mary Richards. She is dead, she appears to have been mulled,

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Speaker 2: and she is in the bull's pen. And both of

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Speaker 2: these young men seemed very alarmed by this. So what

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Speaker 2: are your first impressions. I know you want all kinds

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Speaker 2: of details, and I have them, but you know, that

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Speaker 2: kind of a scene seems on first plus you would

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Speaker 2: say she got into the bull's pen and he ran

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Speaker 2: them up, and then you know, somehow got out and

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Speaker 2: this girl is dead. That would not be I feel

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Speaker 2: like out of the realm of possibility.

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Speaker 3: On a farm. No, you know, and I think that

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Speaker 3: that's obviously something that would have to be looked into

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Speaker 3: in terms of, you know, her injuries. You know that

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Speaker 3: there would be some distinctive injuries that would indicate trampling

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Speaker 3: by the bull, possibly being impaled by the bulls horns,

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Speaker 3: and evaluating is there anything about the injuries to indicate

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Speaker 3: that they were fresh or do you have post mortem aspects?

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Speaker 3: You know, this is where I know we're going to

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Speaker 3: be talking about a homicide. And so is this part

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Speaker 3: of staging a crime scene where you put a dead

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Speaker 3: body into the pen with the bull and then now

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Speaker 3: you agitate the bull, so it's now stomping round inside

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Speaker 3: the pen in order to put some false injuries on

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Speaker 3: the body before the bull is allowed out. So I

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Speaker 3: am interested in the details. But my initial thought, you know,

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Speaker 3: of course, is what kind of staging is going on

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Speaker 3: with Catherine Well?

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Speaker 2: And I have a query about how you would investigate

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Speaker 2: something like this today. Let's say that the injuries to her,

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Speaker 2: let's say it's just blunt force right like that, it

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Speaker 2: looks like she's been beaten to death or stepped on

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Speaker 2: her maull whatever that could possibly have happened by a bull.

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Speaker 1: What would they do to tease that out?

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Speaker 2: Would they be looking for like organic material from the

348
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,560
Speaker 2: bulls horns or from the hoofs to determine whether it

349
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Speaker 2: happened from a bull or whether it happened from a

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Speaker 2: piece of water or somebody's fists. If the injuries could

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Speaker 2: kind of be consistent.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, first and foremost, this is where it

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Speaker 3: really comes down to very thorough documentation, because at the scene,

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Speaker 3: with this type of blunt force trauma, it could be

355
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Speaker 3: a very bloody scene. A lot of the actual injuries,

356
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Speaker 3: the wounds may not be readily visible until the body

357
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:44,159
Speaker 3: is cleaned up. But the idea of let's say layered injuries,

358
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Speaker 3: where you have a homicide with blunt force trauma using

359
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:54,080
Speaker 3: whether it be fists and stomping or an impact weapon

360
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,040
Speaker 3: of some sort a hammer, a baseball bat, and then

361
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,600
Speaker 3: now you have a two thousand plus pound animal stomping

362
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:06,240
Speaker 3: on that body, it could very easily complicate the interpretation

363
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,240
Speaker 3: of what happened, and so the devil would be in

364
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,679
Speaker 3: the details, and it really would depend on, well, what

365
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:18,680
Speaker 3: is present that could differentiate post mortem damage by this

366
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:23,480
Speaker 3: large animal versus violence inflicted by a human. And it's

367
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,760
Speaker 3: not necessarily just the injuries to the bodies. It's what's

368
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,600
Speaker 3: going on with the clothing, It's what's going on within

369
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Speaker 3: the crime scene. Is there a secondary crime scene? Obviously

370
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Speaker 3: if there's blood in the house, that's on the property,

371
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,000
Speaker 3: and now Catherine's body is in this bullpen, well, obviously

372
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Speaker 3: the bull isn't inside the house doing it, that would

373
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Speaker 3: be a clue, you know. But you know, it really

374
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Speaker 3: depends on what is present, and it would be so

375
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:56,720
Speaker 3: easy to miss maybe that little detail that would differentiate

376
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Speaker 3: homicide from accidental stomping by the bull.

377
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:01,960
Speaker 1: Well, let's continue.

378
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 2: Daniel is petrified at this. Myron runs up and is

379
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,080
Speaker 2: very upset also, and the two men go to the

380
00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:14,040
Speaker 2: farmhouse to alert others, except that Catherine's mother and father

381
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,800
Speaker 2: are away from the farm, Mister Richards is in another

382
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,480
Speaker 2: town doing business, and Missus Richards is in a store

383
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,360
Speaker 2: across the county. So the only one who's there is

384
00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:29,080
Speaker 2: a woman who is Catherine's sister, Maggie. There happens to

385
00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,919
Speaker 2: also be a seamstress who joins up with them and

386
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,399
Speaker 2: accompanies the men and they go back to the barn.

387
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,879
Speaker 2: Maggie is in complete shock and says to the farm hands,

388
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 2: how did Catherine die? And Myron says, we assume it

389
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,399
Speaker 2: was from the bull because she was found in the

390
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,359
Speaker 2: bull's pen and the bull was running around. And people

391
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 2: get kicked all the time. Little something about me, Paul.

392
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,480
Speaker 2: I've been kicked by a horse numerous times.

393
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Speaker 1: One I was.

394
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Speaker 2: Taught by a farrier how to clean a horse's hoofs

395
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:01,960
Speaker 2: and I just made a bad decision about where to

396
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 2: go and I got kicked. And it hurts, It has

397
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,959
Speaker 2: a huge bruise. It can kill people, you know, if

398
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:09,960
Speaker 2: you're not standing in the right place. And I was

399
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,720
Speaker 2: not standing in the right place a couple of times,

400
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,240
Speaker 2: and I learned a lesson. So when I read the

401
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,159
Speaker 2: details of you know, potentially, is this going to be

402
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,200
Speaker 2: something that a bull did, I didn't think this was

403
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 2: going to be surprising at all. Plenty of people died

404
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,760
Speaker 2: from both bulls and horses. When mister and missus Richards

405
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 2: come home and they're told what happens, they don't seem

406
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,879
Speaker 2: that surprised, not because you know, they weren't upset, but

407
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,560
Speaker 2: that is what happens sometimes. Is we've talked about living

408
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,920
Speaker 2: on a farm, this spreads across the community and it's

409
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,560
Speaker 2: you know, really seen as a tragic death at this point,

410
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,359
Speaker 2: and the bullet explanation is very plausible to just about

411
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,920
Speaker 2: everybody who hears about it, except our very smart corner.

412
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 2: And we've talked about corners before, how they are elected.

413
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,200
Speaker 2: They don't always have to be they don't many times

414
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 2: don't have medical knowledge. I will tell you in a

415
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 2: season of tenfold, We're Wicked, I deal with a coroner

416
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,639
Speaker 2: who became a corner because he owned a very popular

417
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 2: tavern and people thought he would make a great corner.

418
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 2: So we happen to have a smart one. Thank goodness here,

419
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 2: But let's just review corners right now for us.

420
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, you know, of course, in our current day,

421
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 3: we have both corners as well as medical examiners. Depending

422
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 3: on the state and jurisdiction, the corners can either be

423
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 3: elected officials or a combined official like I used to

424
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 3: work for a sheriff corner office, so the elected sheriff

425
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 3: was actually the corner as well, but he wasn't involved

426
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 3: in the day to day aspects of the coroner's operations.

427
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 3: There was a captain that was assigned, and the pathologists

428
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 3: were the ones that conduct the autopsy and determine cause

429
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 3: of death, and then the captain would be the one

430
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 3: that issues the decertificate with the manner of death based

431
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:04,920
Speaker 3: on what a through medical doctor determined. However, in jurisdictions

432
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 3: across the United States back in the eighteen hundreds as

433
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 3: well as still today, there are elected corners, and oftentimes

434
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 3: they became quarters because they were funeral home directors, so

435
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 3: they were used to seeing and working with the deceased,

436
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,640
Speaker 3: but they're not medical professionals. In some jurisdictions, the individuals

437
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:30,160
Speaker 3: conducting the autopsies have limited expertise relative to other jurisdictions

438
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 3: and the pathologists that have been hired there. So this

439
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 3: is where now you get into, you know, situations to

440
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 3: where things get missed on all fronts, whether it be

441
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,959
Speaker 3: a homicide and accidental and natural suicide. You know, these

442
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 3: can be missed because you don't have the people with

443
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 3: the right experience or expertise conducting the examinations and then

444
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 3: forming the right expert opinions.

445
00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 1: What is the solution to that nationwide, Well.

446
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 3: It's a complicated answer. There has been recommendations over the

447
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 3: years that the coroner's system should be abolished and it

448
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 3: should move entirely over to medical examiners, where now you

449
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 3: have true medical professionals that are not only the ones

450
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,959
Speaker 3: that are conducting the examinations on the deceased, whether it

451
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 3: be the autopsies or the microscopic exams, or reviewing the

452
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 3: toxicology results and forming a medical expert opinion as to

453
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 3: the cause of death. And then you have a medical professional,

454
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 3: the medical examiner himself, who's the one that is issuing

455
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 3: the death certificate as to the manner of death. But

456
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 3: there's complications with that. Of course. Now you're having to

457
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 3: completely change a system in which you have a very

458
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 3: powerfully elected official that's not going to want to give

459
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 3: up that power. And there's a democratic aspect to that.

460
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 3: There's statutes in place that would have to be recodified.

461
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 3: And then there's costs involved, huge costs in terms of

462
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 3: if you're going to become a medical examiner's office, and

463
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 3: let's say you want to abide by accreditation standards, there's

464
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 3: a maximum number of autopsies that a forensic pathologist within

465
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 3: an accredited medical examiner's office can do. And in order

466
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 3: to meet that standard, so you can become an accredited

467
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 3: medical examiner's office, oftentimes you have to double or triple

468
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 3: the number of pathologists that you have employed. The pathologists

469
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,439
Speaker 3: are expensive and they're rare. In fact, we have a

470
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 3: dilemma because there's very few medical professionals that want to

471
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:48,719
Speaker 3: become forensic pathologists. Really, yes, you know, so it's a

472
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 3: tough thing to find and hire forensic pathologists. And so

473
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 3: now what you see and what happened in my county

474
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 3: is you have contract pathologists and so they under contract

475
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 3: work for a county, but they often work for multiple counties,

476
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 3: so they not only do autopsies for one county, and

477
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 3: then they will get in their car and drive to

478
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 3: another county and have to do more autopsies and then

479
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 3: you know, and so they're stretched thin. So there's a

480
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 3: lot of resources, money changes that would have to be

481
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 3: made in order to fix the system.

482
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know the background of this coroner from

483
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 2: eighteen seventy eight looking at Kafa and Mary Richards when

484
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 2: he's doing an autopsy or an examination, but he is

485
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 2: calling BS on this whole bull story. So I'll tell

486
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 2: you what he says, and I don't have a ton

487
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 2: of details, Paul, We're just gonna have to trust that

488
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 2: he clearly knows what he's doing. He says she's covered

489
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 2: in scratches and bruises that he doesn't think are consistent

490
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 2: with a bull. He says she was hit near the

491
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 2: temple with some sort of blunt object. He does not

492
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 2: think that it was a gore from a bull's horns

493
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 2: or stomping. She had heavy marks around her neck that

494
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 2: appear to have been made by some sort of ligature.

495
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 2: So this idea that the bull did all this, of course,

496
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 2: gets flown out the window. And he said it seems

497
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 2: clear that she died of strangulation. So the question of

498
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 2: where the other crime scene is is it doesn't seem like.

499
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: There is one.

500
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 2: There is a young girl in a bullpen with the

501
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 2: gate open who has appeared to be strangled. So the

502
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 2: corner says, this is murder, This was struggle, she fought hard,

503
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 2: and this is not a bull and now we need

504
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 2: to investigate. So what do you think about all that

505
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 2: seems pretty clear?

506
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, they got lucky. If the corner is taking

507
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 3: a look and sees ligature marks encircling Catherine's neck, a

508
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 3: bull isn't doing that by stomping and bucking around inside

509
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,239
Speaker 3: that pen. So now there still has to be an

510
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 3: evaluation of what else is going on with Catherine's body

511
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 3: in terms of what can be attributed to the bull

512
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 3: versus what is not, but also an evaluation of this

513
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 3: bull pen as a crime scene itself. How did the

514
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 3: bull escape? Was it purposely let out? Does it indicate

515
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 3: that the bull became agitated and just somehow broke out

516
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 3: of the pen. And if it looks like the bull

517
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 3: must have been purposely led out, well who would do that?

518
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 3: Why would they do that? And this is where your

519
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 3: investigation starts going. And this is now having to talk

520
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 3: to Okay, so when was Catherine last seen? Who was

521
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 3: she last seen? With the people who are on this

522
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 3: isolated farm, they need to account for all of their

523
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 3: activities over the course of the last twenty four hours.

524
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 3: And right now I have no information when Catherine was

525
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 3: last seen, so I don't know how long she's been dead.

526
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 3: Was she killed the day before and she's just now

527
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 3: being discovered, or was she killed that morning?

528
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 2: Well, the parents and the sister saw her that day,

529
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,479
Speaker 2: and again huge farm, and everybody did different things on

530
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: this farm, and the parents left, the farm hands saw

531
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 2: her that day.

532
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: This is near the end of the day.

533
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 2: And one more piece of medical evidence that is very important.

534
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: The coroner says it appears she had been sexually assaulted,

535
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 2: either just before or just after her death. Now do

536
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 2: I have details on what that means and how they

537
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 2: came to that conclusion. No, Why do I think that

538
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 2: he probably knew what he was talking about. If they

539
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 2: gave evidence that they said this is somebody who has

540
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 2: definitely been sexually assaulted, it means they probably found fluid

541
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 2: and definitely disheveled clothing and probably trauma to the vaginal

542
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 2: area or a different area. But this was not been

543
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 2: a microscope era at this point where we would have

544
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: had a coroner being able to look at different things

545
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 2: under the microscope. But he said he is certain she's

546
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 2: been sexually assaulted. So there's part of your motive right there.

547
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 2: It seems like.

548
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 3: No, no for sure. And you know, any time I'm

549
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 3: dealing with a female victim that's been strangled, you know,

550
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 3: there always has to be that mindset that sexual motivation

551
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 3: was part of the contributing factors to the crime. Whether

552
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 3: or not sex acts were accomplished doesn't negate the idea

553
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 3: that it's a sexually motivated crime. You're exactly right in

554
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 3: terms of back in this era, they're looking at her

555
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 3: state of clothing. You know, was she let's say nude

556
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 3: from the waisted down, Was her body left in a

557
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 3: splayed type of position. Was there trauma to the genital

558
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 3: area or other parts of her body that would indicate

559
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 3: some sort of sex acts had occurred, And then the

560
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 3: idea they you know, during autopsy, sometimes not all the time,

561
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 3: there can be a visualization of let's say, semen within

562
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 3: the vaginal vault. As an example, they're not necessarily doing

563
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 3: a formal identification of it, but a corner pathologist would say,

564
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 3: this substance is not something that is native to this

565
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 3: female body.

566
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: One thing I want to talk about because these words

567
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 2: will come up a little bit, and I know I've

568
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 2: said this before. You know, of course they didn't say

569
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,959
Speaker 2: rape or sexual assault in the eighteen hundreds. Oftentimes, if

570
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 2: you read in the eighteen hundreds of newspapers or in documents,

571
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 2: if you see outrage, he outraged her, that sexual assault,

572
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 2: molest which seems a little clearer, is also want. But

573
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 2: the third one that pops up a couple of times

574
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: in this story is ravish, So you know, he ravished her.

575
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 2: And actually, my kid was just reading nineteen eighty four

576
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 2: and she said to me, Winston, who's one of the

577
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 2: main characters of nineteen eighty four, you know, George Orwill's book,

578
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 2: says he wants to ravish this woman.

579
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: And she said, what does that even mean?

580
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 2: And then I had to have a discussion with her

581
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 2: about what that meant, and she was very confused about

582
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 2: the words. So, you know, oftentimes we have to explain

583
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 2: what these words are because I'll read verbatim some of

584
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 2: the things that were said.

585
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: So just so you're clear, yeah.

586
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 3: You well, I had never heard the term outrage used

587
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 3: in that fashion, you know, so that's very educational. Yep.

588
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 2: Well, this is interesting the way this moves forward because

589
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 2: the coroner's declaration that this was murder alarms everyone. This

590
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 2: is a young girl, you know, from a family of farmers.

591
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: This is an innocent area. This is rural. Everybody's supposed

592
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 2: to be safe, all of the stuff that we think

593
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 2: comes with living on a farm. And now people are

594
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 2: scared to death about who is out there, and they

595
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: immediately start asking, of course, about alibis, which on a

596
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 2: farm is really hard. These are people who work independently,

597
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: who are oftentimes not seen for you know, days and

598
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 2: days at a time.

599
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: I mean you and I.

600
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 2: If you have to think back to the beginning of

601
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: Barry Bones, one of our very first episodes was about

602
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 2: a young man who fell from the top of a windmill.

603
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 3: Remember I am remembering that people hadn't.

604
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: Seen him for a long time. He was up there

605
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 2: by himself, working on a windmill, and then his uncle

606
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 2: comes back and he's dead at the bottom. And the

607
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 2: big question is was he murdered? Because he had some inheritance,

608
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 2: and so it is a mystery because you've got the

609
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 2: outside where there's a nightmare for forensics. You know, you've

610
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 2: got people are who are working in very isolated conditions,

611
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 2: very far apart, and so when they're asking these farm

612
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 2: hands where were you when she might have been murdered?

613
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 2: The timelines are a little bit squishy. So Myron is

614
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 2: someone they look at pretty closely. He's the twenty year old,

615
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 2: and he was actually absent during a key window of

616
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 2: time here when they believe she was killed. She was

617
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 2: warm when the coroner reported out there. He went pretty quickly,

618
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 2: it sounds like, so they know it happened that people

619
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 2: saw her in the early afternoon and she's dead before

620
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 2: the sun goes down. So Myron is kind of under

621
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: suspicion at the beginning because they're trying to figure out

622
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: what his timeline is. His co worker Daniel says that

623
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 2: while they were out tending to the hops, Myron said

624
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,479
Speaker 2: that his boots were giving him some blisters. He went

625
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 2: to the farmhouse to grab a new pair of boots,

626
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 2: but that should have been pretty quick and he didn't

627
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 2: return for forty five minutes. And when Daniel says where

628
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 2: were you, he says that he was wrangling a cult

629
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 2: and a mare that had busted out of a nearby stable,

630
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 2: which is a totally valid alibi. I mean, we are

631
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 2: talking about unexpected things that are happening. I was backed

632
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 2: up against a tree for about twenty five minutes because

633
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 2: a water moccasin was sitting in front of me and

634
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 2: I was petrified. So I would not have had a

635
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 2: good alibi either if that were happening.

636
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,800
Speaker 1: And that's what Myron says. Try to prove me wrong.

637
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 3: So a couple things. Myron is isolating himself back to

638
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 3: the farmhouse. So is this where I'm presuming where Catherine

639
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 3: was likely located at.

640
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 2: They aren't sure just yet, okay, because she is wandering

641
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 2: around doing different things. Also, she was a really big

642
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 2: fan of playing.

643
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 1: With the calves.

644
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,320
Speaker 2: Remember she's fourteen, she's young, yep, and she likes to

645
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,720
Speaker 2: play with the calves. So nobody knows one hundred percent

646
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 2: where she was when this happened. That's the problem.

647
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 3: And then the second thing is is Myron to account

648
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 3: for why it took him so long? Is he's having

649
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,919
Speaker 3: to wrangle these other animals that had broken out, and

650
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 3: Catherine is found because a bull reportedly breaks out, which

651
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 3: we know is a truthful and factual occurrence. You know,

652
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 3: so this is where Okay, So how often are the

653
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 3: animals breaking out on this farmhouse? Or is Myron doing

654
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 3: what typical liars do? Is he weaving some truth some

655
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 3: fact into his statement? So those are things that I'm

656
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,479
Speaker 3: paying attention to in evaluating Myrins. So if he's going

657
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 3: back to the farmhouse, he's isolated, Okay, in my mind,

658
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 3: he's checking a box of he potentially has opportunity to

659
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 3: commit the crime. What was Myron and Catherine's relationship like

660
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 3: prior to the homicide occurring? Do we know that?

661
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: Funny? You should ask Paul Holes.

662
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 2: Oh, things get pretty complicated because of Myron. The investigators

663
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 2: of course find out that his alibi is as I say, squishy,

664
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 2: and they start talking to people about Myron and his

665
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: relationship if there even is one with Catherine. So Myron's

666
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 2: been there. I think he's going on his third season

667
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 2: now seasonal work as a farm hand. So probably the

668
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 2: first time he met Catherine would have been when she

669
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 2: was about eleven or twelve. It sounds like, according to

670
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 2: Daniel and according to other people who have been around

671
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 2: them both that he was infatuated with Catherine. So six

672
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 2: years his junior, which would not be that surprising if

673
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 2: she felt the same way, and she didn't, fourteen and

674
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 2: twenty wouldn't have shocked anybody in the eighteen hundreds. Really,

675
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 2: So Catherine did not like his advances he had proposed

676
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 2: to her. She said, no, I'm sure her father was

677
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 2: not thrilled about it either. He reacted inappropriately. According to

678
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 2: Murder by Gaslight, which is my favorite true crime Blowe,

679
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 2: he proposed and she said, no, what witnesses, you know,

680
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 2: propriety in the eighteen hundreds. What they said was that

681
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 2: he made improper suggestions that were really distressing for Catherine

682
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 2: to hear, which means lewde comments and Catherine was really

683
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,720
Speaker 2: freaked out and said, I'm going to tell my parents

684
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 2: if you don't stop, and so he backed off. So

685
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 2: he was reacting, and this is where we need to

686
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 2: get into profiling. If this is our guy, he's reacting

687
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 2: in a very aggressive, almost verbally right now violent way

688
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,720
Speaker 2: when she's rejecting his advances his boss's daughter.

689
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 3: Well, Myron is checking another box, you know. He is

690
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 3: showing an infatuation or maybe even an obsession with Catherine

691
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 3: for sounds like several years leading up to her homicide.

692
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,879
Speaker 3: So this is where, Okay, he's isolated himself. He's given

693
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 3: himself an opportunity to have committed the crime. He has

694
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 3: had a prior interest in Catherine for or a few

695
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 3: years leading up to the crime being committed. When the

696
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 3: bull is seen, Myron is back with Daniel hoeing the hops.

697
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 3: Do we have an idea on how long Myron had

698
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,760
Speaker 3: been with Daniel before the bull shows up.

699
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 1: I don't have that idea.

700
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 2: No, I'm not sure Daniel's really good at figuring out

701
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 2: the timeline. It sounds like he left to get new boots,

702
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 2: and then the bull at some point comes out. It

703
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 2: sounds like Daniel just knew that Myron should have been

704
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 2: back far sooner, and then everything goes out the window

705
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 2: when this bull is running around and both guys are

706
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 2: freaked out. But we know when the bull is running

707
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 2: around that Myron and Daniel are now together because they're

708
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 2: worried about the bull. And that's when Daniel makes the

709
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 2: discovery of Catherine dead and the bull's pin. So that's

710
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 2: the sequence of events. But I don't know timeline wise,

711
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 2: how much time was there.

712
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:53,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that'd be one of the things that that

713
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 3: timeframe would be one of the things that I'd be

714
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 3: kind of paying attention to because let's use the hypothetical

715
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 3: that Iron is Catherine's killer, he kills her, places her

716
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 3: in the bullpen, and then leaves the gate open for

717
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 3: the bull to get out. How long would it take

718
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 3: for the bull to either figure out how to get

719
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 3: out or was the bull forced out of the pen?

720
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 3: So now Catherine's body could be discovered in the bullpen

721
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 3: in this staging of a crime scene. And this is

722
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 3: what is so significant to me. Imagine a stranger who's

723
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:31,240
Speaker 3: just wandering through the countryside and stumbles across this farm,

724
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:36,720
Speaker 3: sees Katherine sexually assaults strangles Catherine. He has no connection

725
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 3: to the farm, He has no connection to the people

726
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 3: on the farm. Why is he going to elevate his

727
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 3: risk by manipulating Catherine's body and taking Catherine's body to

728
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,240
Speaker 3: the bullpen in order to try to stage this crime scene.

729
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 3: That stranger offender is going to run off and get

730
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 3: away and not take that time. So this is where

731
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,800
Speaker 3: the staging of the crime scene it really does kind

732
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 3: of focus my attention on the people that would likely

733
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 3: be suspects. They themselves think they would be a suspect.

734
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 3: They're trying to misdirect, they're trying to cover up this,

735
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 3: this homicide and make it look like a accidental death.

736
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:23,720
Speaker 3: So again, that is consistent with Myron. I'm not saying

737
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 3: Myron's the guy right now, but you know, Myron has

738
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 3: some explaining to do in my mind.

739
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 2: Tell me what you think about this, because I don't

740
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 2: think Daniel likes Myron very much. He tells investigators when

741
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 2: they say, tell us about this guy. He had a

742
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 2: good reputation as a hard worker on the farm. And

743
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 2: Daniel says that Myron told him something disturbing. Weeks before

744
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 2: Catherine's death. Myron said to Daniel that Myron had a relative,

745
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 2: a male relative. So this is Myron's relative, not Myron

746
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 2: who had Now this.

747
00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: Is the quote.

748
00:40:58,040 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 2: This is why I needed to give you some definitions

749
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 2: of rape from the eighteen hundreds. Who had quote succeeded

750
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: in outraging girls by choking them with a cord, then

751
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 2: carrying out his intentions while they were partly insensible. So

752
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 2: he's not saying I do this, He's saying, my relative

753
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 2: does that. Why would he do that if he is

754
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 2: guilty of what just happened, And this is before Catherine dies.

755
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 2: But isn't it an odd thing to say?

756
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 3: It is? Though you know, it's not unheard of, you know,

757
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 3: in terms of individuals almost bragging about whether what they've

758
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 3: done or what family members or other associates have done

759
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 3: to a confidant, you know. But this is where, Okay,

760
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 3: we have this statement that Daniel is saying Myron told him,

761
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 3: and of course the details in that statement overlap with

762
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 3: what happened with Catherine. I need to know, well, is

763
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 3: this really factual with a relative of Myrons that I

764
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 3: would assume that Daniel would have no idea about unless

765
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 3: Myron had actually made that statement, Or does Daniel have

766
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 3: somebody in his family who has done that? And so

767
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 3: this is where it's okay, I now have a statement

768
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 3: that's significant, And is Daniel putting that out there because

769
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 3: Myron truly did say that to him, or is Daniel

770
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 3: putting that out there because he's trying to direct the

771
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 3: investigation and keep the focus of the investigation on Myron.

772
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 3: And if it turns out that Daniel is the one

773
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 3: that has somebody in his family that has done this

774
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 3: type of crime over and over again with women, now

775
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 3: I start to think, well, maybe Daniel is the one

776
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 3: that is responsible, because there's no reason to do that

777
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 3: misdirection and lie to law enforcement absent using modern technology.

778
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 3: Now this is just gumshoe investigative technique to try to

779
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 3: figure out which one of these guys is the one

780
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 3: that killed Catherine.

781
00:42:58,600 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 1: And I have just thinking this.

782
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 2: You know, if they had been able to pen the

783
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 2: semen on because of DNA, and they were able to

784
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 2: pin in on Daniel or Myron, so then you could

785
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 2: say to one of these guys, this is your evidence

786
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 2: on her.

787
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: Modern day guy would say, yeah, we had sex and

788
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 1: that was it. She agreed, that was it.

789
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 2: I mean, and I left her. I don't know what

790
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 2: happened to her. She was fine when I left her.

791
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 2: There's no way that response would have been believed in

792
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 2: the eighteen hundreds at all.

793
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,720
Speaker 3: Let me give you physical evidence that would help tease

794
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 3: that out. So in all likelihood, you know, there are

795
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 3: instances where offenders redress their victims, but oftentimes with the

796
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 3: sexually motivated homicides, where the victim like Catherine, is strangled.

797
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 3: The sequence can vary. But let's say she is strangled

798
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:50,360
Speaker 3: contemporaneous to the sexual acts. Now she's placed in the bullpen.

799
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 3: Chances are her undergarments haven't been placed back on her.

800
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 3: So one of the types of physical evidence that I

801
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 3: would be looking at is okay, presuming the corners right,

802
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 3: and there's vaginal semen. After let's say a sexual assault,

803
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 3: the woman redresses, there's vaginal drainage, which now into the

804
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 3: crotch of the underwear. We get that semen into the crotch,

805
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 3: it shows that her clothing had been put back on

806
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:20,439
Speaker 3: after the semen had been deposited internally. So I would

807
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 3: be looking at Catherine's clothing to see, oh, yes, I

808
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 3: see this, whether it be Daniel or Myron semen in

809
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 3: her undergarments, which would indicate the sex act possibly occurred

810
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 3: prior to the homicide, because she was allowed to redress,

811
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 3: and then you have the vaginal drainage. But if I

812
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 3: don't see that, then it would suggest that her undergarments

813
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 3: had been taken off, the semen had been deposited, and

814
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 3: she was not allowed to redress or go vertical and

815
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 3: function with these undergarments on. So now this is not

816
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 3: oh I just had sex with her. This is well,

817
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 3: you had sex with and she never put her underwear

818
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 3: back on, and she's been strangled. There's more to the

819
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 3: story here.

820
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 2: Well, that's interesting. Moving forward, we'll just kind of go

821
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 2: through this quickly. He is arrested because he seems like

822
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 2: a jerk, and he says weird, creepy things, and it

823
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 2: sounds like she rejected him. And people knew that there

824
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 2: is zero physical evidence. They did not find a cord.

825
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 2: If that's what he used, there was no way to

826
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 2: really pin it on him. And they put him on

827
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 2: trial for ten days, which is just like an epically long.

828
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:33,280
Speaker 1: Trial from the eighteen hundreds.

829
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 2: And the journalists watch him because he is fascinating to them.

830
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: He seems either puzzled or indifferent. I don't know.

831
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,280
Speaker 2: I don't know how journalists think that killers are supposed

832
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 2: to react when they're sitting there listening in their own trial.

833
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 2: But some of the most entertaining things from the eighteen

834
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 2: hundreds I've read as just like the description of these people,

835
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 2: and I kept thinking, well, how would you react if

836
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 2: you're sitting there with all these reporters staring at you

837
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 2: and the victim's family. There's no right reaction, I think,

838
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 2: from anybody, particularly a guilty person.

839
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 3: Sure, you know, and it is hard to assess. And

840
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 3: you know I've testified, well, I've actually testified close to

841
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 3: two hundred times, but I would say fifty over fifty

842
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 3: times for major felony cases in which you know a

843
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 3: defendant is looking at a serious charge and how they're

844
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 3: sitting there, I mean, most of them look disengaged. To

845
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 3: be frank, I've seen some, you know, like notably nor

846
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 3: Cal Rapist, he was very engaged with the testimony. And

847
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 3: then I've also seen I've literally seen what a psychotic

848
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 3: defendant looks like somebody where you walk in you go, oh, yeah,

849
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,760
Speaker 3: he's not here. You know, he mentally has an issue,

850
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 3: and in fact, the judge ultimately in that case, you know,

851
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 3: found the guy incompetent to stand trial. So it is

852
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:58,919
Speaker 3: so hard to assess, evaluating like Myron's disposition as as

853
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 3: he's standing file for what ultimately, you know, is going

854
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 3: to determine what's going to happen to him for the

855
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,280
Speaker 3: rest of his life or whether he's going to continue

856
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 3: to live.

857
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 2: And I'll tell you, Paul, I mean, I don't know

858
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 2: if a lot of people know this, but they regularly

859
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 2: drugged defendants during their trials. So you know, I've written

860
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 2: about I would say half a dozen people who were

861
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 2: given morphine right before the trial. So you cannot look

862
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 2: at him and assess anything in any way possible to

863
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 2: think this is an accurate picture of who this person is.

864
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 2: But Myron really fascinated reporters, and I want to get

865
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 2: to me one of the more interesting parts here, and

866
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 2: we're just going to skip.

867
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: Over the trial.

868
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 2: I mean, really, he is, despite I think a lack

869
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 2: of evidence, he is found guilty. Does that surprise you

870
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 2: or no? I mean there's no evidence against him except

871
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 2: he's a creep and he has no real good alibi.

872
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 2: But I mean that's farm life.

873
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, because I was going to make a

874
00:47:54,600 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 3: comment that though there's some boxes checked on Myron, I

875
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 3: don't think that the investigators, with what you've told me,

876
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 3: have developed sufficient probable cause for a rest. He's a suspect, Daniel,

877
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 3: depending on details about his timelines and his statements and

878
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:19,280
Speaker 3: everything else, as I discussed before, potentially as a suspect too.

879
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,959
Speaker 3: And that's where it's what we need to figure out.

880
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 3: Is it one of these two or is it mister X,

881
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 3: the stranger who happened to wander onto the property? You know,

882
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 3: So that's where it's like, yeah, you know, Myron probably

883
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 3: has the most boxes checked because of isolating himself. The

884
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:44,439
Speaker 3: statements where you know, he's wrangling these animals that broke

885
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 3: out of their pen and we happen to have a

886
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 3: bull breakout of where the pen where Catherine was found,

887
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 3: as well as his prior infatuation with Catherine. But this

888
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,879
Speaker 3: doesn't add up enough to where I believe that there's

889
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 3: probable cause that he can be a rested for Catherine's murder.

890
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 3: He's just suspect number one in my mind.

891
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 2: Well, what's interesting about Myron is this is one of

892
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 2: those cases from the eighteen hundreds that I bring to

893
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 2: you where I look at this and go, there's not

894
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 2: enough evidence. Just like you said, there's not enough evidence.

895
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 2: This guy never should have been convicted. He might not

896
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 2: have done it. Just because he's weird in a creep

897
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 2: and checks some boxes does not mean he should be

898
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 2: sent to the gallows. And then I read that three

899
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 2: days before his execution, he confesses to all of it,

900
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 2: very detailed, And that's why I wanted to get to

901
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 2: the confession, because he planned this out. And luckily for

902
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 2: the prosecutors, they got the right person and it doesn't

903
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,720
Speaker 2: seem like it was Daniel or mister Richard's her father

904
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 2: or mystery man X. He gives a detailed confession, but

905
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 2: this was not I would not say dumb luck that

906
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 2: they got the right person. But well, you know, this

907
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,840
Speaker 2: doesn't happen all the time where it's scant evidence and

908
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 2: they convict and this is definitely the right person because

909
00:49:58,680 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 2: he said, yeah, I did it.

910
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,919
Speaker 1: I'm telling you you I did it, and here's how Yeah.

911
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 3: Well, and this is where it comes down to, you know,

912
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 3: looking at you know, various suspects on various cases over

913
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 3: the decades that I've worked cases, it's God, there seems

914
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,879
Speaker 3: to be enough substance here, this is possibly the guy.

915
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 3: Do I have probable cause? You know? And this is

916
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 3: something any investigator working a kind of a who done

917
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 3: it homicide is asking. There's obvious in modern day cases,

918
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 3: there's obvious things. We have DNA that we know came

919
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 3: from the offender and it matches the suspect. Yes, But

920
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:37,919
Speaker 3: when you're dealing with circumstances. One of the things about

921
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 3: probable cause, and you'll hear whether it be you know,

922
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 3: when you're going through legal training and the police academy

923
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 3: or experienced homicide investigators. Says, well, I can't necessarily define

924
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 3: probable cause, but I know it when I see it,

925
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 3: and then you have to convince a da I've got

926
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 3: probable cause, or a judge, I've got probable cause.

927
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 2: I think it was the Suprimeur that was trying to

928
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 2: define pornography. We can't define it, but we know it

929
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 2: when we see it. It's very much the same feeling. Well,

930
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 2: let me tell you about the confession. And then he

931
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 2: says something that I want you to react to, and

932
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 2: it's the very last thing he says. He appealed under

933
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:18,280
Speaker 2: the grounds that the judge should have advised the jury.

934
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 2: So this was a jury trial that the judge said,

935
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 2: your choices are to acquit him or to convict him

936
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 2: a first degree homicide, and the appeal basically said he

937
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 2: should have been given a multitude of murdered degrees, not

938
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:32,320
Speaker 2: just one.

939
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 1: Or the other. He loses the appeal.

940
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 2: He feels like this is going to be the end

941
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 2: of his life, and this is when he confesses. He says,

942
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 2: okay to the reverend, I did it. He says, on

943
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 2: this afternoon in question, he said, mister and missus Richards

944
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 2: were gone he knew that he stepped away from his

945
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:53,760
Speaker 2: work with that excuse. My boots hurt, and he wanted

946
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 2: to find Catherine, and he knew he wanted to attack her.

947
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 2: Animals play a big part in this guy's scheme here.

948
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 2: He lets a calf loose from the barn, and he

949
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:05,760
Speaker 2: also lets.

950
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:06,280
Speaker 1: The bull loose.

951
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,240
Speaker 2: He lets the calf loose because he knows Catherine loves calfs.

952
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 2: He finds her in the farm's cheese house. Remember I

953
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:15,919
Speaker 2: told you this is a big place. There's all kinds

954
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 2: of houses and barns and sheds. He finds her in

955
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,279
Speaker 2: the cheese house playing with her kittens. He says, this

956
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:22,280
Speaker 2: calf is loose.

957
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:23,320
Speaker 1: I need your help.

958
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 2: And he knew predictably that she would want to find

959
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 2: the calf and keep it safe.

960
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 1: He said.

961
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 2: Once they found the calf and returned it to the barn,

962
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 2: he closed the door, and he put a piece of

963
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 2: fabric which they never found, around her neck and strangled

964
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,760
Speaker 2: her to death. So he says, her eyes is a quote.

965
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 2: Her eyes looked terrible when she was struggling. Then I

966
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 2: struck her with a milking stool that stood by me.

967
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 2: Then I ravished her.

968
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 1: She was dead.

969
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 2: But warm when I committed the crime. So what do

970
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 2: you think about all that? And then there's more, a

971
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:55,399
Speaker 2: little bit more.

972
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 3: Well, I see it's you know, it's a horrific crime,

973
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 3: just on a personal level. And here the details of

974
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 3: what Catherine's last moments in life were like. From a

975
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 3: professional side, you know, this is where Okay, now I

976
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 3: have details, and I have to evaluate the veracity of

977
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:17,359
Speaker 3: these details. You know my concern from case out of

978
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 3: you know, eighteen seventy eight, do we have a scenario

979
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:23,720
Speaker 3: of a false confession? We have a twenty year old

980
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,839
Speaker 3: farm hand. I don't know what his intellectual capacity is,

981
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 3: but we know this age is somebody that could be

982
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,720
Speaker 3: prone to false confession. So I have to make sure

983
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 3: that what he is confessing to is accurate with the

984
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 3: physical evidence. And so this is where, even though he's

985
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:45,240
Speaker 3: already convicted, I would be wanting to go back and go, Okay,

986
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 3: you know they don't have photographs. I know that, but

987
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 3: let me see Catherine's injuries. I want to see this

988
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 3: this milking stool. You know, one of the big things

989
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 3: is is this piece of fabric which the reverend is

990
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 3: not going to be a trained interviewer, you know, but

991
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:05,720
Speaker 3: that's a huge thing. He's saying he used a piece

992
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:09,759
Speaker 3: of fabric to strangle Catherine coroner is saying he saw

993
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:14,360
Speaker 3: ligature marks around her neck. That piece of fabric is huge.

994
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 3: All right, Myron, where is that piece of fabric? And

995
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 3: if he says I tucked it underneath the wood pile

996
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 3: in the bullpen, I got to that woodpile, and if

997
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 3: that fabric is there, then bingo, only the killer would

998
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 3: know that, you know. So that's part of what I

999
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:35,319
Speaker 3: would be doing. Even though it's a convicted offender, there

1000
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 3: still is an obligation to vet all the details to

1001
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:43,280
Speaker 3: make sure that he is providing the information that only

1002
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:45,960
Speaker 3: the killer would know. So now I have confidence this

1003
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 3: is a true confession because some of the things that

1004
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 3: he may be saying happened, the original investigators may be

1005
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 3: unaware of. They may not have recognized the evidence in

1006
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 3: terms of reconstruc diructing the crime scene. But now that

1007
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 3: the information, the details and the statements are there, then

1008
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:08,799
Speaker 3: that that evidence could Oh that's why this stool was

1009
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 3: over here, right, And that's part of the interview process

1010
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 3: is it's not just just tell me what happened. Mm hmm, Oh,

1011
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 3: you use the milking stool. Okay, where was it when

1012
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,839
Speaker 3: you when you first saw it? How did you use it?

1013
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 3: How many blows did you inflict with it? Where did

1014
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 3: you put it afterwards? And if he says so, well,

1015
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 3: I set it down, you know, to my right. But

1016
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 3: then when I was running out of the bullpen, I

1017
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:35,759
Speaker 3: kicked it. You know, that's the type of detail where

1018
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:39,280
Speaker 3: you go cheeze. That's why that that stool is halfway

1019
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,880
Speaker 3: away from where it normally would be. Yeah, but the

1020
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:47,720
Speaker 3: details that he's providing this sounds good to me without

1021
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:51,360
Speaker 3: the ability to do all that type of veracity checking

1022
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 3: that I just talked about, and just.

1023
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 2: To button this up, you're right, the reverend isn't asking

1024
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 2: a whole lot of details about that. I think he's

1025
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 2: horrified about listening to this story. Myron says that he

1026
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 2: picked her up and carried her to the bull's pen

1027
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 2: so that, you know, they would assume people would assume

1028
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:09,959
Speaker 2: that she had been gored by the bull. I guess

1029
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 2: he forgot about the ligature mark around her neck. He

1030
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:14,439
Speaker 2: put her in the bullpen and they opened the gate

1031
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 2: and let the bull go free. And then when the

1032
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 2: reverend says, why did you do this. He said, she

1033
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 2: was going to tell her parents that I have been

1034
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 2: what I can describe as a sleazy guy and had

1035
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:30,399
Speaker 2: been making all of these proposals and sexual advances and

1036
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:34,319
Speaker 2: being mad at her. And he said, and this is infuriating,

1037
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:38,759
Speaker 2: Paul frankly quote, I loved Catherine and was jealous. I

1038
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 2: intended to kill her and ravish her because I was mad.

1039
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 2: And I have heard that from other killers using that

1040
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 2: word mad.

1041
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 3: There is a sexualized violence that these types of offenders commit.

1042
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 3: They could just kill out of anger with no sexual component,

1043
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 3: but they include a sexual component. There's a fantasy aspect

1044
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:05,880
Speaker 3: to these offenders. I guarantee Myron, who's been infatuated with

1045
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 3: Catherine for several years and making lude comments, he's fantasizing

1046
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 3: about doing certain sex acts to her. So in his statement,

1047
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 3: the first thing he does is he strangles her. This

1048
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:23,919
Speaker 3: is self preservation for him, in part. He's eliminating her

1049
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 3: from going and telling his employers about his lewdness, if

1050
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 3: you will. But after killing her, he has sex with

1051
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 3: her body. It's about sex, you know. So there's power control,

1052
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 3: there's anger, but sex is a fundamental aspect to sexual offenders,

1053
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 3: and that's just something that many people just kind of

1054
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 3: gloss over. But no, it's fundamental and something within their nature,

1055
00:57:54,760 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 3: within their upbringing. They have crossed the sexual compuls and

1056
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 3: the violence into one thing, and that's how they get

1057
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:09,840
Speaker 3: sexual gratification. I have offenders that will have consensual sex

1058
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:13,080
Speaker 3: with their girlfriends and halfway through push off and go

1059
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 3: and grab a gun and then hold the gun to

1060
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 3: the woman's head while he's having sex with her. Doesn't

1061
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 3: need to do that in order for sex, but he

1062
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 3: likes that violence and that fear he's inflicting on his victim.

1063
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 3: These are different types of individuals and the psychology of

1064
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:32,960
Speaker 3: these people are are are so different from the normal.

1065
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 3: And you know, when I talk to groups and law enforcement,

1066
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 3: you know, I talk you know, the introduction and recognition

1067
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 3: of the serial predator. And one of my big phrases

1068
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:47,520
Speaker 3: is know thy enemy, because these types of sexual predators

1069
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 3: think differently and do different things.

1070
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 2: Well, let's go back to that statement that Daniel made

1071
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 2: where Myron has said, my quote unquote relative like to

1072
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 2: outge girls and strangle them with a cord.

1073
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 1: I hate to.

1074
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 2: Say, well, I am glad that even though law enforcement

1075
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 2: had Diddley squat as evidence that they got him, because

1076
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 2: they obviously got the right person. Legally, what a bad case, morally,

1077
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 2: what a good outcome, except of course I'm not going

1078
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:22,520
Speaker 2: to give an opinion on execution. But he was hanged

1079
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 2: in November of eighteen seventy nine, So there you go,

1080
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 2: no evidence they get the right person. He would have

1081
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 2: continued absolutely doing this. I think you and I both

1082
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 2: know that if this had not happened, But I mean

1083
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 2: you just said, this wouldn't have even been you know,

1084
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 2: you would have even gotten arrest for it these days

1085
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 2: on that evidence.

1086
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 3: Sure you know. And again the case, at least as

1087
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 3: it stood, for what they could do relative to today's

1088
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 3: standards is it's thin, But they were on the right track.

1089
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 3: Suspect number one is Byron, no question about it. But

1090
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 3: I do want to make the comment. And you know,

1091
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 3: if in fact one of Myron's relatives was a serial

1092
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 3: sexual predator. We've seen this over and over again. This

1093
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 3: type of crime runs in families. Is it nature, is

1094
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 3: it nurture? I think it's a combination of both. You

1095
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 3: have somebody that is born with a certain predisposition, and

1096
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 3: then of course if that type of activity is something

1097
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 3: that is not only permissible, but even encouraged in some

1098
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 3: of these families, then you have somebody that goes out

1099
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:32,920
Speaker 3: and acts in that way. You know. So if they

1100
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 3: had done the follow up on that statement and found yes,

1101
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 3: a close relative of Myron was a serial rapist, you know,

1102
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 3: then there you go. There already is a predilection within Myron,

1103
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 3: and we see it over and over again in law enforcement.

1104
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 2: Bad for the legal system, good for the community to

1105
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 2: get closure. And I'm sure that his confession just horrified

1106
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 2: her parents. It must have been just devastating. But this

1107
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:00,880
Speaker 2: is a good case because I think about what we

1108
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 2: used to convict people now, what they used in the

1109
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 2: sixteen hundreds.

1110
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 1: I can't go back any further.

1111
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 2: I might have to draw the line at the sixteen hundreds,

1112
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 2: but I mean, you know, they still were on the

1113
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:15,880
Speaker 2: right track, as we know throughout history. And this is

1114
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 2: one of those cases where I just said, well, at

1115
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 2: least they caught him. But thank goodness, they got it

1116
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:23,240
Speaker 2: right and it wasn't Daniel. I mean, what if it

1117
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 2: were Daniel. I mean, you know, what if this guy

1118
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 2: didn't confess and he was hanged.

1119
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:29,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I if we had all the details, yeah,

1120
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 3: you know, from what the investigators had. It's a good

1121
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:40,200
Speaker 3: training case for investigators. Okay, this is how without using

1122
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 3: modern technology, this is how to build a case and

1123
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:47,840
Speaker 3: to investigate a case and to sort out, you know,

1124
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 3: some of the complexities because oftentimes we have multiple suspects

1125
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:55,640
Speaker 3: that have circumstances that seemed to check the boxes that

1126
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 3: they could be involved. Well, how does one try to

1127
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 3: find out the facts versus Oh, I've got boxes checked.

1128
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:06,200
Speaker 3: I'm going to jump on this guy. He's got to

1129
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:07,920
Speaker 3: be the guy. Well, no, maybe he's not.

1130
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 2: Well, another good case, I will say, don't expect me

1131
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:16,280
Speaker 2: to be wearing contacts next week. I think it's going

1132
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:19,320
Speaker 2: to take a little longer. And I'm a chicken, so

1133
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:22,600
Speaker 2: we'll see what happens. But you know, next week, I'll

1134
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:25,200
Speaker 2: bring you something else and maybe I'll be squinting, but

1135
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 2: definitely it'll be interesting.

1136
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:28,560
Speaker 1: I can promise you that, Paul.

1137
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:32,760
Speaker 3: Holes Well, Kate Whekler Dawson, if I can wear contacts,

1138
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:35,000
Speaker 3: you can wear contacts, because I guarantee you I'm a

1139
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 3: bigger chicken than you.

1140
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:38,720
Speaker 1: Oh that's good to know. Okay, good to know. Going forward,

1141
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:40,720
Speaker 1: see we learn things.

1142
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 3: Thank you, I'll see you next week.

1143
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:47,080
Speaker 1: Bye.

1144
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

1145
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 2: and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot com slash

1146
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 2: Buried Bones Sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

1147
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 3: Research by Marri mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1148
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:05,800
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1149
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1150
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:10,640
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1151
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:15,040
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

1152
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1153
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:19,960
Speaker 2: Barry Bones Pod.

1154
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1155
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1156
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:26,800
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now

1157
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 2: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

1158
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:33,479
Speaker 2: Cold Cases is also available now