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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stop? Mom? Never told you?

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Speaker 1: From House to works dot Com. Hey and welcome the podcast.

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Speaker 1: This is Molly and I'm Kristen Christine. Know. We try

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Speaker 1: to keep an eye on current events UM that relates

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Speaker 1: to our listeners, relate to women's issues, and so recently

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Speaker 1: something that made the headlines was the death of woman Mankiller.

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Speaker 1: She died in early April, and she was the first

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Speaker 1: female chief of the Cherokee Nation and you know, she

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Speaker 1: just because it was such a monumental achievement, she was

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Speaker 1: heralded quite a bit during that first week of you know,

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Speaker 1: her life, the loss of her to the nation, and

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Speaker 1: just what her legacy was within the American Indian community.

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Speaker 1: And we don't talk about we haven't really talked about

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Speaker 1: the American Indian community with on our podcasts, and so

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Speaker 1: we thought it would be really cool to get into

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Speaker 1: Mankiller's life and show exactly what she did. But eve right,

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Speaker 1: because her story is also UM a great segue into

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Speaker 1: what a lot of other women are doing UM among

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Speaker 1: other American Indian tribes right now, and also what is

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Speaker 1: going on with women in tribes, so we might not

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Speaker 1: be aware of right. I mean, I had never heard

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Speaker 1: of a woman man Killer, And the more I read

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Speaker 1: about her, the more I was like, why haven't I

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Speaker 1: heard about this? So let's let's talk about who she is,

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Speaker 1: because it's a pretty pretty cool story. So well, the

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Speaker 1: man Killer was born and grew up in an Oklahoma reservation.

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Speaker 1: Her family was quote unquote dirt poor, and the style

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Speaker 1: she described her her early life they according to a

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Speaker 1: Salon article by Andrew Nelson, the man Killers frequently eight

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Speaker 1: suppers with squirrel and other game. The house didn't have

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Speaker 1: any electricity, her parents use coal oil for light, and

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Speaker 1: basically things got so bad that finally her dad, Charlie Mankiller,

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Speaker 1: decided to move the family out to California as part

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Speaker 1: of a program that I believe was regulated through the

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Speaker 1: Bureau of Indian Affairs. And it was kind of a

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Speaker 1: sad story because it was just government plan to move

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Speaker 1: American Indians out of the reservations, get them into more

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Speaker 1: urbanized settings, and I guess sort of adjust them, if

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Speaker 1: you will, acclimate them to American modern day American society.

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Speaker 1: And it was a tough transition. I mean, the neighbors

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Speaker 1: had to teach them how to use the telephone. But

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Speaker 1: her father all along, you know, instilled pride and his

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Speaker 1: kids about their heritage. Um. She frequently went to an

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Speaker 1: Indian center in San Francisco. UM. She didn't really love

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Speaker 1: school obviously because she was going through this tough transition.

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Speaker 1: And she got married right after high school, had two children,

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Speaker 1: and uh, you know, it was kind of living this

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Speaker 1: weird life and that she had this heritage that didn't

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Speaker 1: probably fit in with the you know, crazy San Francisco scene.

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Speaker 1: But living in San Francisco allowed her to get her

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Speaker 1: first real touch of activism. So in nineteen sixty nine,

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Speaker 1: a group of I believe eighteen American Indians go out

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Speaker 1: to Alcatraz, the island prison which was since abandoned that

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Speaker 1: I think at the time had been bought by some

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Speaker 1: businessman who wanted to redevelop it as some kind of

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Speaker 1: tourist attraction. And the American Indians went out took over

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Speaker 1: Alcatraz and stationed themselves there to basically protests the Americans

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Speaker 1: taking their land away. Uh, you know, the founding of

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Speaker 1: the country. I think they brought out enough beads and

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Speaker 1: like it was something like twenty four glass beads and cloth.

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Speaker 1: It was whatever the price they paid for. Are the

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Speaker 1: white colonists paid to claim Manhattan? Right, So it was

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Speaker 1: just this big, you know, display of symbolism. Hey, you

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Speaker 1: took this lamb, We're going to claim this land for us.

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Speaker 1: And it went on for like several months, and at

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Speaker 1: first man Killer wasn't that interested. You know, her her

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Speaker 1: family was a little bit involved in the protest, and

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Speaker 1: you know, hundreds of people joined these eighteen or nineteen

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Speaker 1: uh Indians out on the island and it became this huge,

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Speaker 1: huge story. Celebrities got involved, per usual. So she writes

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Speaker 1: later when when Wilma Mankiller actually went out there for

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Speaker 1: the first time, it really did give her a sense

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Speaker 1: of pride. She had kind of always known about Native

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Speaker 1: American issues, but this was sort of the defining moment

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Speaker 1: she always talks about where she has this sense of

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Speaker 1: pride in her people, in her history, and she wants

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Speaker 1: to get more involved with this community. Yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: really a process of her reclaiming herself and and part

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Speaker 1: of that process involves her actually divorcing her husband because

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Speaker 1: she ended up in this marriage that was I mean

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Speaker 1: a pretty pretty cozy arrangement for her husband was you know,

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Speaker 1: it sounded like pretty well off. You know, she was

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Speaker 1: very much the typical sixties housewife. But at the same

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Speaker 1: time he seemed pretty controlling. He didn't want her to

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Speaker 1: have her own car, certainly didn't want her to be

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Speaker 1: working or being involved in in this American Indian activism.

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Speaker 1: So she divorced is her husband in then she finds

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Speaker 1: a job in Oakland as a social worker, and then

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Speaker 1: she makes very crucial decision seems like a wild gamble

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Speaker 1: at the time. She decides to return to her native Oklahoma,

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Speaker 1: back to the reservation. She has no money, the car's gone,

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Speaker 1: it's you know, like you said, it seems like a

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Speaker 1: huge gamble to have these kids and to be moving

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Speaker 1: back into you know, into her past and back into poverty.

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Speaker 1: She leaves California in you hall, with twenty dollars in

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Speaker 1: her pocket and basically just hoping that things are going

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Speaker 1: to work out. So she gets back to the Cherokee

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Speaker 1: tribe and she finds a position as a community coordinator,

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Speaker 1: And at this time, the tribe was trying to start

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Speaker 1: operating or distancing itself from the Bureau of Indian Affairs,

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Speaker 1: which is basically the government organization or government agency that

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Speaker 1: was responsible for allocating federal funds to the different reservations

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Speaker 1: and kind of saying what they can and can't do

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Speaker 1: with that money, right, so they were trying to, you know,

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Speaker 1: find better ways to operate, to get out from under

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Speaker 1: their thumb. And so now Wilman Man Killer has all

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Speaker 1: this background in social organization from her time in California.

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Speaker 1: She's gotten a degree at the University of Arkansas, so

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Speaker 1: she really kind of has, you know, both the history

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Speaker 1: and the experience to be part of this movement to

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Speaker 1: to reform the tribe. And then it's not until nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy nine when she is involved in very serious car

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Speaker 1: crash that injures her and kills her friend who is

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Speaker 1: also in the car with her, that she really hits

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Speaker 1: this swall and kind of it seems like she kind

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Speaker 1: of goes through this existential crisis while she is recovering,

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Speaker 1: going through the guilt of losing her friend in the

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Speaker 1: car um and really deciding what what she's gonna do

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Speaker 1: with herself, how she's going to pick herself back up.

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Speaker 1: And then in nineteen eighties, she's diagnosed with a thermomuscular

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Speaker 1: disease UM and she has an operation to remove her

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Speaker 1: thymus secures her ever illness, and so she gets back

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Speaker 1: on the job in nineteen eighty one UM and she

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Speaker 1: starts getting involved with urban planning, and she oversees this

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Speaker 1: very successful project of laying a sixteen mile water pipeline

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Speaker 1: that actually gets two different tribes people involved. They each

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Speaker 1: person involved is actually responsible for laying a mile of

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Speaker 1: this groundwater that they can then um have freshwater piped

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Speaker 1: into the tribe, and it really starts to reinvigorate this

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Speaker 1: Cherokee reservation. I think they also had to do fundraising

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Speaker 1: for each segment themselves. So this kind of is one

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Speaker 1: of her hallmarks, and that if we're going to get

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Speaker 1: out from under the thumb of the b I A,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna solve our problems ourselves. And all this time

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Speaker 1: she's starting to catch the eye of a Cherokee chief

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Speaker 1: at the time, Ross Swimmer, and he wants man Killer

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Speaker 1: to run us his deputy in the next tribal election,

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Speaker 1: which she does and they win. They win, not that

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Speaker 1: it was an easy path for her. As soon as

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Speaker 1: he names her as the as the deputy, she starts

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Speaker 1: getting all these uh you know, awful threats to her life.

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Speaker 1: Swimmers criticized for it. You know, she thought that it

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Speaker 1: was because she was very liberal, because she did say,

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Speaker 1: we can solve our own problems, we don't need the government,

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Speaker 1: which was a very liberal stance to take within the

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Speaker 1: tribe at that point. And rather than attacking her on

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Speaker 1: our politics, as you might imagine, they attacked her for

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Speaker 1: purposes of being a woman. Now, then something else, very

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Speaker 1: important happens in September. Then President Ronald Reagan taps the

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Speaker 1: Cherokee Chief, Ross Swimmer to become head of the Bureau

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Speaker 1: of Indian Affairs. So that leaves Mankiller US and next

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Speaker 1: in line. So with her uh taking over the title,

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Speaker 1: she becomes the first woman chief of any American Indian tribe.

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Speaker 1: And she holds that position for the next ten years,

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Speaker 1: winning elections. It's not like she just had to sit there,

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Speaker 1: you know, unelected by the people. Some of the elections

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Speaker 1: in which she won she won by landslides with the

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Speaker 1: highest voter turnouts that have been seen. So not only

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Speaker 1: did she come in just you know, through good luck,

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Speaker 1: she really galvanized the people and presided over a ton

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Speaker 1: of accomplishments. For example, she oversaw the historic self Determination

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Speaker 1: Agreement so that the Cherokee Nation assumes responsibility for the

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Speaker 1: b i A funds and you know, takes on some

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Speaker 1: of their own leadership in that regard. Uh. She oversaw

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Speaker 1: budget more than seventy five million. She helped the tribe

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Speaker 1: publicize itself so that tripled enrollment, employment doubled under her reign.

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Speaker 1: She built new health centers, children's programs. She was known

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Speaker 1: for taking what are considered women's issues like healthcare, education

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Speaker 1: for the kids, etcetera, and really making them the forefront

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Speaker 1: of her administration. In fact, sometimes she's criticized for not

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Speaker 1: doing what they consider the stereotypical American Indian things and

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Speaker 1: like trying to build new casinos, gaming centers, getting the

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Speaker 1: getting the fast cash. She was really working on rehabilitating

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Speaker 1: the community within a try, because it's pretty well known

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Speaker 1: that UM American Indian communities have been racked with dire poverty,

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Speaker 1: problems with alcoholism, domestic abuse, poor education, and man killer.

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Speaker 1: Really left behind a legacy of making solid progress towards

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Speaker 1: pulling them out of that. And I think that we

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Speaker 1: should also note that while all of this is going on,

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Speaker 1: she starts to battle lymphoma, breast cancer, and another of

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Speaker 1: other health problems. Finally steps down, doesn't decides not to

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Speaker 1: seek reelection, and she starts to just teach at Dartmouth College.

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Speaker 1: But throughout all this she's she's constantly dealing with with

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Speaker 1: health issues. And when she died in April, she had

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Speaker 1: reached stage four metastic pancreatic cancer. Yeah. One um obituary

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Speaker 1: noted that not only was she such a prominent female leader,

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Speaker 1: but a prominent disabled leader as well, because she did

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Speaker 1: have so many health issues. Now, let's talk about the

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Speaker 1: name Kristen, because if you are sort of this token

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Speaker 1: woman who is leading your tribe, who's you're in the

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Speaker 1: prominent eye in your last name is man killer. You know,

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Speaker 1: that is, as she said herself, a lot of feminists

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Speaker 1: would like to have that name. Not that feminists want

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Speaker 1: to kill men, but she would. She had such a

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Speaker 1: great sense of humor about it. She you know, someone

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Speaker 1: would say, oh, is that your real last name, and

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Speaker 1: she'd be like, well, I earned it through reputation. Um,

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Speaker 1: So it actually is just an old Cherokee military title.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's it's it was just lucky stroke of fortune. Um.

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Speaker 1: But she has a lot of great quotes about how

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Speaker 1: you know, she was aware of her legacy. She knew

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Speaker 1: that there were lots of Cherokee girls that would have

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Speaker 1: never considered they could grow up and be chief, and

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Speaker 1: now they could because they had seen a woman do it.

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Speaker 1: They had seen a women do it successfully. And now

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of articles about how women are

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Speaker 1: taking more of a leadership role within tribal councils. They've

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Speaker 1: been giving a lot of educational opportunities in the last

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Speaker 1: years and their ranks are growing. So it's always sort

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Speaker 1: of attributed to the leadership of woman man killer. So

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Speaker 1: just to give you an idea of how women are

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Speaker 1: sort of rising through the ranks in the tribes. According

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Speaker 1: to the National Congress of Indians, by two thousand six,

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Speaker 1: the number of women leaders of tribes was a hundred

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Speaker 1: and thirty three among more than five hundred and sixty

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Speaker 1: recognized tribes. And that includes Vivian Juan Saunders, who became

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Speaker 1: the first woman to head the tojno O Autumn Nation

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Speaker 1: in Arizona in May two thousand three. We have Irma Visianor,

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Speaker 1: who was elected in June two thousand four as the

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Speaker 1: first woman to lead the White earth Band of the

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Speaker 1: Ojibway in Minnesota. And then we also have Cecilia fire Thunder,

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Speaker 1: who became the top leader of the Oglala Sioux tribe.

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Speaker 1: And fire Thunder is a good example of despite the

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Speaker 1: fact that we have all these women who are coming

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Speaker 1: through the ranks and that's fantastic, it is not without

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Speaker 1: some controversy. Right as soon as she took office, she

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Speaker 1: faced all this criticism about how she was handling the

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Speaker 1: massive death they've been handed to her by a long

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Speaker 1: reign of male leaders, and she was getting, you know,

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Speaker 1: all these personal attacks, and she there was a New

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Speaker 1: York Times argle where she was basically like, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to say it's because I'm a woman, but what

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Speaker 1: else could it be? You know, you're reading from an

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Speaker 1: Econo article that was like, oh, yeah, fire Thunder has

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Speaker 1: been elected. A year later, the New York Times comes

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Speaker 1: out and she's like, this has sucked. I'm paraphrasing. She

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Speaker 1: did not say that, but you know, I am under

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Speaker 1: constant attack that the previous leaders were not what else

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Speaker 1: could it be but the fact I'm a woman. And

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Speaker 1: she was very much like, I don't want it to

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Speaker 1: be because of that, but you know, that's the status

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Speaker 1: of women within this community. Well, I think it's also

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Speaker 1: interesting that instead of giving her the title of chief,

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Speaker 1: she was given the title, I believe, of congresswoman. And

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Speaker 1: so we have to talk a little bit about feminism

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Speaker 1: within the American Indian community. And it's gonna be much

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Speaker 1: briefer than it than it deserves, but hopefully it's something

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Speaker 1: we kind of lay a foundation for and come back

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Speaker 1: to later. Now, let's go back to the man killer.

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Speaker 1: She was in the Cherokee tribe, and you know, they're

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Speaker 1: talking about how she faced this very systemic viewpoint that

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Speaker 1: women couldn't lead, and it it goes back, of course

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Speaker 1: to the very long and sad history of how you know,

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Speaker 1: American Dymnians have been treated over time, because before they

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Speaker 1: were colonized. We found, uh from the North Carolina Museum

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Speaker 1: of History, a really great outline of how powerful they

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Speaker 1: were before old white man came and ruined everything. So

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Speaker 1: back in the day, relatives were charted, not through the

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Speaker 1: fathers as they are today, but actually through the mothers.

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Speaker 1: You were only related to each other through your maternal side,

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Speaker 1: and then the households were really overseen by the women,

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Speaker 1: not just in terms of women taking care of clothing

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Speaker 1: and cooking and all of that, but they were actually

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Speaker 1: the ones out in the fields gathering the foods because

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Speaker 1: the men would either be engaged in warfare and out

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Speaker 1: of the house, or they would go on extended hunting trips.

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Speaker 1: So it really was up to the women to keep

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Speaker 1: everything going while the men were out. And then, funnily enough,

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Speaker 1: if let's say a guy and a girl don't get

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Speaker 1: along too well, their marriage isn't working out, or their

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Speaker 1: union is not working out, the guy would just leave

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Speaker 1: and go back home and live with his mom. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was the woman's home. And if he did leave,

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Speaker 1: he lost basically all rights to the children, because, as

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Speaker 1: you said, it was a matrilineal kinship system. The children

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Speaker 1: weren't technically related to the father. They're related to the mother,

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Speaker 1: and the most important male in a in a child's life,

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Speaker 1: according to this Museum of History, was the wife's brother,

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Speaker 1: because that's how strong the female influence was within just

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Speaker 1: one given family. So I think that you could say

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Speaker 1: that in a way, this resurgence of women leaders in

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Speaker 1: American Indian tribes, it's really just getting back to the

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Speaker 1: way life was a little bit in a very small

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Speaker 1: way before white colonists came in and basically ruined everything.

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Speaker 1: And now you can probably tell that that's like an

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable thing to say. It's very hard, I think for

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Speaker 1: anyone discussing history to talk about maybe the own the

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Speaker 1: part that their own race played in it. You know,

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Speaker 1: Kristen and I weren't around, But the way the history goes,

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Speaker 1: the white people came in and made the Cherokee Indians

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Speaker 1: model their life after them, and that's when women lost

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Speaker 1: a good deal of power. And so that's why the

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Speaker 1: chairm of feminism has been very tricky within the American

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Speaker 1: Indian community because the way I became familiar with man

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Speaker 1: killers passing was there a lot of feminist blogs who

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Speaker 1: were saying, oh, look at this great woman leader who

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Speaker 1: who died, and let's celebrate her rightly. Um, But you know,

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Speaker 1: there is this problem of what feminism and what a

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Speaker 1: woman's role within these communities is. And when you go

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Speaker 1: back and look at this matrialneal society that Molly and

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Speaker 1: I talked about a second ago, it's understandable that this

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Speaker 1: concept of feminism might rub American Indian women the wrong

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Speaker 1: way because this seems like a construct that white women

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Speaker 1: in particular created in you know, the fifties and sixties

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Speaker 1: with second wave feminism, Betty for Dan, etcetera. Uh, and

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Speaker 1: they're saying, well, wait a second, No, you're simply having

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Speaker 1: to reconstruct what we enjoyed before you guys came along

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Speaker 1: and enforced patriarchy. So Chris Baker probably talked for days

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Speaker 1: about this issue of feminism for women of color. It's

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Speaker 1: a tricky issue, but we just wanted to acknowledge it

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Speaker 1: and say, you know, it's it is kind of weird

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Speaker 1: that we're sitting here discussing what feminism means for them,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's a tricky It's a tricky issue, right,

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Speaker 1: I think to the point that we have to acknowledge

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Speaker 1: that for for women of color, simply taking the label

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Speaker 1: of feminism might not be enough, because not only do

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Speaker 1: they have to deal with the issues of being a woman,

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Speaker 1: but also deal with the issues on top of that

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Speaker 1: with being a minority in society and building on that.

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Speaker 1: For American Indian women in particular, Molly and I did

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Speaker 1: not realize um one of the major issues even more

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Speaker 1: so they have to deal with than other, more than

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Speaker 1: black women, more than white women, other um racial groups

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Speaker 1: in the United States is the issue of sexual assault

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Speaker 1: and domestic violence right. According to New York Times, Indian

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Speaker 1: women suffered two and a half times more domestic violence

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Speaker 1: during a half times more sexual assaults. In sevent of

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Speaker 1: those women will be stocked. So UM disproportionate victimization in

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Speaker 1: in crimes. And you know, I don't want to turn this,

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Speaker 1: you know what we're trying to make a celebration of

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Speaker 1: a woman man Killer's life into a podcast about right,

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Speaker 1: but it's just something to be aware of in that

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Speaker 1: you know, women are in this situation and Mankiller has

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Speaker 1: been a really great voice for trying to left them

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Speaker 1: out of it well. And I think that the the

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Speaker 1: issue of sexual assault and how it is handled is

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Speaker 1: also another example of UM just the tricky politics of

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Speaker 1: life on the reservation. Because if a woman is raped

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Speaker 1: by a man who is not part of the tribe, UM,

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Speaker 1: she cannot take that case to tribal government. They can't

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Speaker 1: be tried. But then if she goes to say the

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Speaker 1: municipal police out side of the reservation and says, hey,

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Speaker 1: this this white guy or whoever raped me, UM, they

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Speaker 1: also don't want the police don't want to come into

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Speaker 1: the reservation because they'll say, you know, this is not there,

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Speaker 1: not their jurisdiction, and then the woman is basically left

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Speaker 1: in this position of not being able to turn to anyone,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of times a lot of these crimes

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Speaker 1: go unreported. And some of these organizations, like the National

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Speaker 1: Organization of Women estimate that the or guests that these

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Speaker 1: statistics are probably even even higher because the women don't

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Speaker 1: really don't have any place to turn at all. And

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Speaker 1: so um, they're really trying to lobby for a lot

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Speaker 1: more support specifically for women in reservations because on the

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Speaker 1: one hand, we have this great success story of people

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Speaker 1: like woman man Killer, UM, and just women in general,

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Speaker 1: American Indian women in general, who are on the whole

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Speaker 1: more educated. Um, they're the ones going to college more

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Speaker 1: so than American Indian men. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: day to day life is still very struggle, it seems like.

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Speaker 1: So I think that that's you know, this podcast might

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Speaker 1: have seemed a little bit all over the map, but

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Speaker 1: I think that, you know, we are white feminists, and

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Speaker 1: maybe we haven't been brought enough in bringing stories like

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Speaker 1: that into our podcast. And I also think, Molly that

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Speaker 1: it's really good to at the same time honor woman

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Speaker 1: man killer and the legacy that she leaves behind, but

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Speaker 1: not necessarily allow all of those those high points to

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Speaker 1: distract us from these very deep, um hurtful issues that

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Speaker 1: are still going on today that need you know, that

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Speaker 1: need public awareness. I didn't know about this before this.

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Speaker 1: You have sexual assault and domestic violence, Um I did.

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Speaker 1: I was not aware of that before this podcast. So

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Speaker 1: just broadening our our viewpoints on what's going on in

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Speaker 1: the world for women. So, guys, as always, we'd love

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Speaker 1: to know your thoughts on our discussion. Any experiences, any questions,

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00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,720
Speaker 1: let's hear them. It's mom stuff at how stuff Works

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Speaker 1: dot com and we'll do some listener mail right now.

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Speaker 1: So they were going to read an email from Emily,

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Speaker 1: who writes, I found the Shopping gender Stereotypes podcast very

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Speaker 1: amusing because according to those stereotypes, I shopped like a man.

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Speaker 1: When I find what I want, i'd buy it and

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Speaker 1: move on. My boyfriend, on the other hand, has been

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Speaker 1: forever deciding what type of mustard to buy. I can

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Speaker 1: go finish shopping for the rest of the groceries, and

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Speaker 1: he's still in front the mustards deciding. Not that I

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Speaker 1: don't like to browse on occasion, but how long can

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Speaker 1: you really contemplate mustard? A few months ago, my landlord

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Speaker 1: was a few days later with drawing my rent from

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Speaker 1: my bank account. I called him to make sure everything

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Speaker 1: was okay on my end, not wanting any possible late fees.

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Speaker 1: He said, they were a few days late due to

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Speaker 1: the holidays, but they will withdraw it, so don't rush

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Speaker 1: out and go shopping, he said, And, as Emily rightly says, jerk.

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Speaker 1: Although I was pull out on the phone, I resented

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Speaker 1: the implication because I'm a woman, I must not know

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Speaker 1: how to manage money, and I do think that landlord

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Speaker 1: was a pretty big jerk. Well, if you've got any emails, Cinema,

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Speaker 1: our way, Moms Stuff at how stuff works dot com,

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00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:01,640
Speaker 1: and have a couple of new ways you can get

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Speaker 1: in touch and follow me and Molly. First of all,

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Speaker 1: you can do that on Twitter. We have a Twitter

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Speaker 1: account It's Mom's Stuff podcast. Head on over there, join us,

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Speaker 1: follow us. We will send you delightful tweets at random

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Speaker 1: times during the day. Uh. And then you can also

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Speaker 1: become our fan on Facebook. Hey, how about that We're

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Speaker 1: just stuff Mom never told you? Join our fan page.

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Speaker 1: We promise we will not um bombard your wall with

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Speaker 1: a lot of useless updates, but you know we'd like

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Speaker 1: to see your face. And then, finally, we have a

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Speaker 1: new blog. It's called stuff Mom never told you to

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Speaker 1: take over. You might remember our old blog, how to Stuff.

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Speaker 1: We got a couple of new people taken that over

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Speaker 1: so that Molly and I can devote ourselves to all

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Speaker 1: things mom stuff. And you can find that new blog

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