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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Ejene Carroll vows to do something

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Speaker 1: good with Trump's eighty three point three million dollars. We

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Speaker 1: have such a great show today. The Financial Times, John

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Speaker 1: Burne Murdoch talks to us about the unexpected reason society

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Speaker 1: maybe declining.

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Speaker 2: He's so interesting. He's one of my favorite guests. Then

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Speaker 2: we'll talk to The New York Times.

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Speaker 1: Nick Confesssori about his amazing investigation into the Right Wings

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Speaker 1: mission to destroy DEI. But first we have the host

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Speaker 1: of the Enemy's List, the one, the only, the Lincoln

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Speaker 1: Projects Own, Rick Wilson.

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Speaker 2: Welcome.

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Speaker 1: It is Monday and the only way to start your

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Speaker 1: week is with one Rick Wilson.

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Speaker 2: Welcome.

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Speaker 3: Rick Wilson, Good morning, Molly.

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Speaker 4: How are you do you know?

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Speaker 2: I don't owe anyone eighty three million dollars?

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Speaker 5: You know, I don't know he won eighty three million

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Speaker 5: dollars either, and I find that that is a number.

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Speaker 4: I would like to keep it that way.

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Speaker 1: So all weekend you and I have spent gloating, I

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Speaker 1: think quietly gloating about this incredible verdict where now Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump is for the first time ever, I feel like

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Speaker 1: held responsible for a sexual misconduct.

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Speaker 2: Right, She's not the only accuser there have but been numerous.

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Speaker 5: It has now been adjudicated twice that he lied and

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Speaker 5: therefore defamed her. There was enough evidence to say that

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Speaker 5: he is a guy who has committed sexual assault. I mean,

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Speaker 5: call me crazy, but I don't know about you, but

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Speaker 5: I wouldn't want that on my resume.

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Speaker 1: But you know, yeah, I mean he did brag about

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Speaker 1: that in the Access Hollywood team.

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Speaker 2: It's not that he's that hesitant about it.

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Speaker 5: Oh No, Look, he is not some blushing guy who's

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Speaker 5: ashamed that he's rape. Right, that great piece you wrote

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Speaker 5: about the women of Egene and your mom's generation who

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Speaker 5: have been through so much.

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Speaker 4: Of this shit.

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Speaker 5: Who in that weird gap between sexual liberation and today,

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Speaker 5: there's been a lot of ugly shit in the way

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Speaker 5: or along the way.

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Speaker 1: They did not grow up sexually liberated. They grew up

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Speaker 1: sexually terrified. Yeah, and I think about my mom telling

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Speaker 1: me these stories about men doing things to her that

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Speaker 1: where she was like I just I just smiled, and

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Speaker 1: you know, was like, I mean the kind of treatment

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Speaker 1: she had in grad school.

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Speaker 4: Right, I believe it.

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Speaker 1: It was hard for me to believe, but I knew

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Speaker 1: it was true because it matches with all of these.

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Speaker 2: Other women's experience in the nineteen fifties and sixties.

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Speaker 5: And the thing about it is, and I keep going

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Speaker 5: back to this, he came into court treating it like

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Speaker 5: it was just one other Trump bullshit rally. He came

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Speaker 5: into court thinking, I'm just going to show my ass enough.

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Speaker 5: I'm going to do my Trump performance art enough, and

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Speaker 5: that'll change the facts on the ground here. That'll shame,

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Speaker 5: change what I did to her. That'll unring the bell

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Speaker 5: on the same charges a jury of New Yorkers had

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Speaker 5: previously determined that he had done. That's the thing to

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Speaker 5: me that I love what happened here because you know,

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Speaker 5: it showed for once. You know, you can't like pretend

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Speaker 5: that you're on the pages of Breitbert or truth Social

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Speaker 5: and hope that it hope that it alters an outcome

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Speaker 5: where your behavior, that the kind of behavior that you've

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Speaker 5: been charged with of being abusive to women is plaguing

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Speaker 5: out in front of the jury's faces. You know, it

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Speaker 5: just blows me away.

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Speaker 1: The fundamental problem here is that candidate Trump thought he

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Speaker 1: could use his legal challenges ninety one counts criminally and

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Speaker 1: his civil cases fundraising, but also is rally right, maybe

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Speaker 1: you would give these speeches and it would help him.

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Speaker 1: But the problem for him, and you saw this in

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Speaker 1: the trial this week, was you know, here he is

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Speaker 1: braging about what a billionaire he is. Good for candidate Trump,

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Speaker 1: not so good for defendant Trump.

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Speaker 5: This weekend we went through and as you know, my

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Speaker 5: fiancee is exceptional what math for all the reasons a

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Speaker 5: week we know because of her work, she's exceptional a math.

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Speaker 5: We were doing some back of the envelope calculations, and

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Speaker 5: given how leveraged he is financially, given how deep in

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Speaker 5: the weeds he is financially, with everything being mortgaged to

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Speaker 5: the hilt, he's going to have to sell something, and

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Speaker 5: probably pretty fast.

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Speaker 1: Remember Trump has another financial problem, which is this civil trial,

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Speaker 1: which could be one hundred million plus maybe two hundred million,

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Speaker 1: I think at maybe two thirty where he is going

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Speaker 1: to have to sell things quickly. But I think the

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Speaker 1: thing that I want to just take a minute to

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Speaker 1: talk about here, which we haven't talked so much about,

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Speaker 1: is this number is because of defamation. This number is

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Speaker 1: so high because he could not stop defaming her.

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Speaker 5: He couldn't shut up long enough to go into court,

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Speaker 5: he couldn't hire a law firm that he didn't want

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Speaker 5: to fuck. And look, let's just be really blunt. This

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Speaker 5: hobble woman is now in my mind like single white female.

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Speaker 5: She's this imitator of Malania's look and all this other

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Speaker 5: weird shit.

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Speaker 2: But if you look at the videos, in the photos,

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Speaker 2: almost all of his aides look like young Milania.

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Speaker 4: Of course he.

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Speaker 5: Has a type, he is a thing. But the fact

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Speaker 5: that you would put your financial future at risk because

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Speaker 5: you want to hit it with your lawyer instead of

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Speaker 5: hiring some junkyard dog Sonovich lawyer out there. But of course,

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Speaker 5: I mean, I know he can't afford that anymore. There

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Speaker 5: risks he puts himself in over and over and over

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Speaker 5: again because of his dumb, childlike ego. It just blows

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Speaker 5: me away. And look, we know now what it means

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Speaker 5: to vote for Trump. It means you're going to vote

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Speaker 5: for somebody who is an adjudicated sexual assaulter, somebody who

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Speaker 5: raped Egen Carol in a goddamn dressing room, who juris

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Speaker 5: have examined every scrap of evidence that there is out

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Speaker 5: there twice now and said, you know, Donald, you did this,

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Speaker 5: and we know you did it?

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Speaker 1: Is you and I bows no from writing about Trump

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Speaker 1: World and living in Trump World and basically from twenty

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Speaker 1: sixteen to twenty twenty our whole world with Trump World.

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Speaker 1: Trump is big into defamation.

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Speaker 4: He's speaking to claiming he'll sue for defamation.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 5: I would like to point out that in my case,

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Speaker 5: it is five hundred and seven days as of today

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Speaker 5: since Trump went on a rant saying he was going

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Speaker 5: to sue me in the Linked project for defamation. How'd

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Speaker 5: that work out for you, Donny? Because he hasn't done

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Speaker 5: a damn thing.

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Speaker 1: Right, So he likes to say he's going to sue

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Speaker 1: for deformation, but he also likes to defame. And this

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Speaker 1: number is so high because they made a calculation that

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Speaker 1: was this was how it would be. The reputational harm, right,

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Speaker 1: like the harm of like hundreds of death threats in

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Speaker 1: her email, having to have security, the fear she has,

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Speaker 1: I mean she sleeps with a loaded gun. These are

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Speaker 1: the thing that you cannot necessarily put a cash value on.

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Speaker 2: This New York City jury did that yep. By the way,

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Speaker 2: this New York City.

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Speaker 1: Jury which had to stay anonymous for their own safety.

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Speaker 5: Right as the judge is saying to them, I recommend

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Speaker 5: you never reveal your name in public. That's not because

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Speaker 5: he thinks that they should be discreet, y'all. That's because

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Speaker 5: he thinks they're going to get murdered by Trumpers. And look,

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Speaker 5: I got swatted two weeks ago. Nikki Haley got swatted

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Speaker 5: last night. These people believe that anybody that opposes Trump

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Speaker 5: is an enemy who should be killed. And she's going

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Speaker 5: to always have to live with that. I hate that

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Speaker 5: for her, and it's terrible.

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Speaker 1: I want to like pull back and talk about defications

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Speaker 1: a one more minute, because you'll notice that again you

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Speaker 1: are the creator of the everything Trump touches dies Maxim

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Speaker 1: and I want to pull back and talk about one

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Speaker 1: Rudy Juliani who.

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Speaker 5: Has an monthly income now of twenty three hundred and

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Speaker 5: eight dollars and seven hundred and sixty one dollars in

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Speaker 5: this checking account according to his that's his bankruptcy filing.

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Speaker 2: So Rudy Julian was quote unquote you worked for him.

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Speaker 1: He was a mathter mayor. He had a bright New

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Speaker 1: York City future. Now he owes Ruby Freeman and Shay

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Speaker 1: Moss about a gazillion.

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Speaker 2: Dollars, so let's talk about that. They are election workers.

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Speaker 5: This is a man who, when we were like warming

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Speaker 5: up for the two thousand and eight campaign, was worth

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Speaker 5: on paper around two hundred million dollars because of the

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Speaker 5: value of Giuliani partners and all this other stuff. He

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Speaker 5: needed both ego and money at the beginning of the

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Speaker 5: Trump era, and so he supported Trump starting in twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 5: The last time we talked was the end of twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 5: I told him he will screw you, he will fuck

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Speaker 5: you over, this will go badly. Don't do this, don't

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Speaker 5: do this, don't do this. You can come back from

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Speaker 5: where you're at right now. You can rebuild. And I

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Speaker 5: was told go fuck yourself. Basically more polite than that, honestly,

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Speaker 5: but it was pretty much go fuck yourself.

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Speaker 4: And that was the last time we talked.

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Speaker 5: I stuck to the guy shipped constantly for years, constantly,

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Speaker 5: you know, I worked for him for a long long time.

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Speaker 5: I was one of the few people that would say, hey,

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Speaker 5: fuck off, stop doing stupid shit, and once in a

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Speaker 5: while he would listen to me, and now he is

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Speaker 5: a guy who is just about to be homeless.

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Speaker 4: Process that for a second in Florida.

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Speaker 5: He's not going to lose his condo, because bankruptcy protects

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Speaker 5: your primary residence. Right, He's going to lose everything else

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Speaker 5: he has. He's going to lose every other penny that

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Speaker 5: ever comes into his wallet for the rest of his

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Speaker 5: life is going to disappear.

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Speaker 1: Ruby Freeman and Shay mass and Ruby Freeman, let us

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Speaker 1: just pause her minute. She is the election worker, and

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Speaker 1: she and her mother both worked in elections. They were

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Speaker 1: defamed by Rudy. Their lives were made terrifying and terrible.

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Speaker 1: It was the same thing as Egene right. Yeah, And ultimately, again,

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Speaker 1: what I think is the most interesting thing about this

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Speaker 1: whole situation is that Rudy could not stop defaming them

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Speaker 1: and continued to defame them.

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Speaker 4: And here's the thing.

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Speaker 5: The irony of Trump always talks about defaming people, always

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Speaker 5: talks about always the famous people, always talks about suing

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Speaker 5: people for defamation. When it has happened now to him

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Speaker 5: and to Rudy, it took a really gigantic impact financially

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Speaker 5: because he's actually shut the hell up over the weekend

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Speaker 5: he has not been doing it over the weekend. And

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Speaker 5: as much as I find him as I find that

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Speaker 5: amusing to taught him, I think he finally understood he

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Speaker 5: doesn't have the cash to do this. He doesn't have

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Speaker 5: the ability to raise the cash to pay this right now.

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Speaker 5: He's in a very tight spot, and I'm here for it.

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Speaker 5: He bought every bit of this on himself. Hey, nobody

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Speaker 5: else's fault but him.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about what I think is pretty interesting here.

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Speaker 1: We are Republicans now have this problem. They have a

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Speaker 1: candidate quality problem.

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Speaker 5: You know, candidate qual used to be the rule of

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Speaker 5: everything we did in the party. And you know who

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Speaker 5: the king of that was, Mitch McConnell. You know why

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Speaker 5: he was the king of that because after we had

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Speaker 5: the Palin experience and twenty ten and then we got

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Speaker 5: wiped out in twenty twelve because.

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Speaker 2: Al and experience the Palin experience.

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Speaker 5: Although I will say this, you look at the people

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Speaker 5: now in the Republican Party and it makes the Palins

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Speaker 5: look like Downton Abbey.

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Speaker 2: It's true.

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Speaker 5: But long story short, we have this thing with candidate

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Speaker 5: quality that McConnell after twenty twelve and said we will

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Speaker 5: never do that shit again. We will recruit great candidates.

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Speaker 5: We will add was a rule that people in the

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Speaker 5: party really said, this is a pretty smart idea. Let's

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Speaker 5: do this, let's do it this way. Well, how'd that

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Speaker 5: work out for us? Because now what we have is

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Speaker 5: a commitment to mostly the worst possible candidate. Trump is

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Speaker 5: one of the worst possible candidates you could imagine. He

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Speaker 5: is a broken and corrupt and degenerate weirdo. And every

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Speaker 5: thing that the party is defined by is obedience to

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Speaker 5: the corrupt, broken, degenerate weirdo. Now, I'm not saying that

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Speaker 5: there aren't people that like that, because there clearly are.

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Speaker 5: In twenty twenty, at the Lincoln Project, we developed this

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Speaker 5: thing called the Banned Line. The story of how it

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Speaker 5: got that name is not the point right now. But

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Speaker 5: back then, but depending on the state you were in,

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Speaker 5: it was between three and eight percent of Republican voters

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Speaker 5: could be persuaded away from Trump. Well, since Dobbs and

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Speaker 5: one to six and some other things, that number has

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Speaker 5: grown to be between seven and eleven percent. I'm going

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Speaker 5: to make an argument that things like e Gen Carroll

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Speaker 5: and this verdict are going to make it an even

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Speaker 5: larger number. Especially among women voters. And you know what

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Speaker 5: couldn't happen to a shittier human being than Donald Trump.

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Speaker 5: He deserves it, and that number is going to expand.

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Speaker 5: And I think you're going to see women in this country,

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Speaker 5: even the people in the Democratic side, the progressive side, aren't.

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Speaker 4: Like, oh, look everything Biden does.

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Speaker 5: They're going to look at the at the fact that

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Speaker 5: you're making a choice now, not between Joe Biden and

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Speaker 5: Donald Trump, or not between Joe Biden a republic but

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Speaker 5: Joe Biden and a guy who's been now adjudicated twice

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Speaker 5: to have committed sexual assault. Even Republican women, even trumpy

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Speaker 5: oriented women, I think, are going to say, you know,

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Speaker 5: I don't think this is for me, and we're going

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Speaker 5: to try to help them do that, because I think

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Speaker 5: it is an argument that can be made to a

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Speaker 5: lot of these folks who ordinarily, you know, maybe they

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Speaker 5: wouldn't maybe they wouldn't ever consider mooning for Joe Biden,

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Speaker 5: but they may now consider that they're not going to

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Speaker 5: vote for the hold Trump.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So it's funny because it's like I was talking to

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Speaker 1: George Conway last week about this before the judgment came down.

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Speaker 1: We're talking and he said, you know, it could be

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Speaker 1: as much as one hundred million dollars and I thought.

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Speaker 2: There's no way going bro.

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Speaker 1: I thought, it's nice that you're so invest in this,

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Speaker 1: and I appreciate that you got heard of Robbie Kaplan.

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Speaker 2: Who is this incredible lawyer.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is like a really I think interesting

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Speaker 1: important point, like Robbie CapMan was not some unknown parking lawyer.

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Speaker 1: Huge Egene hired because she looked.

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Speaker 5: Like right he who didn't look at Robbie Kapen to

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Speaker 5: go ooh, man can be I want this one to

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Speaker 5: take my case.

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Speaker 4: She said, I'm going to find a son of a

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Speaker 4: bitch right well.

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Speaker 1: And also I'm going to find the woman who argued

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Speaker 1: the defense of marriage, you know, who ended the terrible

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Speaker 1: anti LGBTQ rules about marriage in this country in.

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Speaker 2: Front of the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: So this is a woman who has really been a

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Speaker 1: champion for what is right for a long time. You know,

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Speaker 1: I thought for sure George was being a little bit

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Speaker 1: overly optimistic when he said one hundred million.

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Speaker 2: And there was something about when that VERDA came down

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Speaker 2: where I.

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Speaker 1: Couldn't believe the feelings I had about it, even though

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Speaker 1: this has nothing to do with me. There was a

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Speaker 1: feeling that Donald tru a woman of a certain age,

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Speaker 1: a woman Donald Trump's own age, right, Donald Trump married

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Speaker 1: to someone who is in her fifties, but a woman

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump's own age appear of his had brought him down.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. No, listen.

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Speaker 5: The first thing I thought the minute I saw the

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Speaker 5: case come down, and all I thought was she's my

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Speaker 5: mom's age. And I think, like a lot of other Americans,

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Speaker 5: the first thing I thought was, how would I feel

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Speaker 5: if that was my mother who had had to live

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Speaker 5: with this shit for forty years and then have this

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Speaker 5: guy come out and talk the shit about her that

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Speaker 5: he does. I mean, would how would I feel? And

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Speaker 5: I was That was my contemplation of it. And look,

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Speaker 5: I met Egeene. I guess once or twice. We had

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Speaker 5: her on the podcast years ago, you and I did

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Speaker 5: when we had the other podcast, but I didn't. I

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Speaker 5: wasn't emotionally invested in her. But I loved watching the

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Speaker 5: moment where somebody who yes, she has she has great attorneys,

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Speaker 5: she has some means to be able to be in

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Speaker 5: the fight against him.

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Speaker 2: But she's not wealthy.

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Speaker 5: No, no, but no, Yeah, that's what I'm saying, is

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Speaker 5: she's not wealthy, didn't she wasn't able to throw millions

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Speaker 5: of dollars into this case.

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Speaker 4: But her story was an unlock.

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Speaker 5: I think for a lot of people in this country,

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Speaker 5: and I think for a lot, I hope, I hope.

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Speaker 5: Maybe I'm wrong. Look, I could be wrong, but I

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Speaker 5: hope for a lot of other other victims of his

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Speaker 5: kind of abusiveness will come out and talk about it.

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Speaker 5: I hope that he will. I hope that he right

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Speaker 5: now is grinding his teeth because Donald Trump is acutely aware,

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Speaker 5: probably to the penny, how much money he really has,

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Speaker 5: and it's not the same amount that he wants you

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Speaker 5: to think.

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Speaker 2: Rick Wilson, I hope you'll come back.

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Speaker 1: John Burton Murdoch is a data journalist at the Financial Times.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics, my most haunting guest, John Murdoch.

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Speaker 3: Thanks you for having me.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry to tell you I am still not over.

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Speaker 1: At the last interview we did, which was maybe a

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Speaker 1: month ago, where we talked about American life expectancy.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about something else.

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Speaker 1: Today, but then we're going to go back into the

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Speaker 1: American life expectancy conversation because as an American with a life.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it exactly got me upset as

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Speaker 1: much as it is just a fascinating window into all

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Speaker 1: of the many things we're doing wrong over here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah at work.

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Speaker 3: I'm happy to be your sort of non American voice

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Speaker 3: on all of that stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But so let's first talk about this piece you wrote,

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Speaker 1: which is called is the West Talking Itself into Decline?

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Speaker 1: Really interesting? Explain to us a sort of pisis behind this?

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Speaker 3: Sure, So this one sort of came out of a

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Speaker 3: few thoughts I've been having recently and a few pieces

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Speaker 3: I've been reading. And essentially the way to come at

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Speaker 3: this is to think about the human progress over the

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Speaker 3: last two three hundred years. Specifically, the key point is

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Speaker 3: the Industrial Revolution. So for a very long time, economic historians,

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Speaker 3: kind of anyone who's interested in human progress has been

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Speaker 3: trying to think what caused the Industrial Revolution to happen,

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Speaker 3: when it did and where it did. So, this huge

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Speaker 3: event that led to rapid growth not just in economic

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Speaker 3: output but in life expectancy and life satisfaction, all of

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Speaker 3: those things, What caused it to happen when and where

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Speaker 3: it did? The American economic historian Robert Allen has this

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Speaker 3: theory that Britain's successes in commerce at the time meant

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Speaker 3: that British workers had especially high wages, and the fact

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Speaker 3: that the UK had a lot of pole meant that

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Speaker 3: you also had cheap energy. So this combination of high

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Speaker 3: wages and cheap energy meant that it really made a

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Speaker 3: lot of sense to get into using machinery things where

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Speaker 3: you need few people and where cheap energy was helpful.

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Speaker 3: So that's the standard theory that that's why this happened

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Speaker 3: went and where it did. But where this gets interesting

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Speaker 3: is there's another theory from an American Israeli called Joel Mockier,

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Speaker 3: and his theory is that it wasn't necessarily as much

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Speaker 3: about things like the costs of labor and energy. It

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Speaker 3: was about culture, and it was about how people in

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Speaker 3: Britain at that time were thinking about the world and

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Speaker 3: their place in it, and what it kind of meant

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Speaker 3: to be human and what we could do as humans

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Speaker 3: to change our outcomes. This sounds all very sort of

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Speaker 3: handwayving fuzzy, but I think it's really useful to think

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Speaker 3: about how revolutionary that was at that time. So this

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Speaker 3: was a period where societies were super religious and the

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Speaker 3: main theory was that the quality of your life and

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Speaker 3: the world around you was essentially came from God. Everything

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Speaker 3: was provided by God. If you wanted to have a

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Speaker 3: good life, then you had to rely. You would hope

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Speaker 3: that God would pray to God that that happened. And

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Speaker 3: if you wanted your future, your next year, your next

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Speaker 3: decade to be better, it would again depend on some

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Speaker 3: of what was providing to you. You didn't have a

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Speaker 3: huge amount of So when when people like Fromtis Bacon,

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Speaker 3: the British Promossiper, came along and started to say, what

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Speaker 3: if we actually have some input here, What if we

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Speaker 3: can and do things to change our outcome and to

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Speaker 3: make the world a better place. What if we can

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Speaker 3: try and come up with ways and use things like

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Speaker 3: science and experimentation to find better ways of doing things.

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Speaker 3: So it was really quite revolutionary thinking, and so Joe

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Speaker 3: and Morkir's theory is that maybe actually this was the key.

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Speaker 3: It was the fact that in British society at that

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Speaker 3: time you had a group of people who were starting

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Speaker 3: to think more about what can we do to make

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Speaker 3: the world better? What can we do to make ourselves

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Speaker 3: richer and to make ourselves healthier and to live longer.

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Speaker 3: And it was that sort of culture of thinking about

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Speaker 3: progress and betterment which led British society at that time,

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Speaker 3: British entrepreneurs to actually start running these things into practice,

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Speaker 3: and that's about the Industrial Revolution. So that's the sort

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Speaker 3: of the big picture of where this, where this whole

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Speaker 3: peace styro came from. And what I wanted to do

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Speaker 3: in this piece Don't was to throw this forward and say, okay, well,

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Speaker 3: if if if we know, or at least if we

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Speaker 3: if we think that a culture that is focused on

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Speaker 3: progress and improvement and experimentation can produce real tangible outcomes,

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Speaker 3: can lead to more economic growth, can lead to longer

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Speaker 3: life expectancy and large populations, then what does that mean

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Speaker 3: for today? And so to answer that question, I replicated

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Speaker 3: this this approach from some academics really some which was

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Speaker 3: to look at the language that people use over time.

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Speaker 3: So Google has this amazing database of millions and millions

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Speaker 3: of books that have been published going back one hundreds

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Speaker 3: of years, so all the way back from sort of

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Speaker 3: the year fifteen hundred, sixteen hundred through to the present day.

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Speaker 3: And what we can do with that is we can

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Speaker 3: look at the type of language that has been used

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Speaker 3: over top. What we see is that in the English

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Speaker 3: speaking world, but also we can expand out to the

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Speaker 3: broader west. So if we look at French books and

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Speaker 3: German books as well, what we see is that in

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Speaker 3: those early years that's sort of sixteen seven hundreds and

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Speaker 3: the lead up to the Industrial Revolution, you really see

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Speaker 3: this shift to a culture of progress. So the language

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Speaker 3: being used in books, you started getting a lot of

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Speaker 3: words about the future and progress and betterment and growth

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Speaker 3: and that kind of thing before the economy and life

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Speaker 3: expecting to see everything took up. So it really supports

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Speaker 3: the idea that language and culture do matter. But the

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Speaker 3: really interesting thing that I've then seen in the last

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Speaker 3: say one hundred years, or particularly the last fifty sixty years,

443
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 3: is that that has actually now reversed. So in Britain,

444
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 3: in the US, in France and Germany and so on.

445
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,120
Speaker 3: The language that we use in whether you know it's

446
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,199
Speaker 3: measured in books, but this is really the language we

447
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,919
Speaker 3: use as a culture. We've stopped talking as much about

448
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 3: progress in the future and advancing things, and we've started

449
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:57,199
Speaker 3: talking more about warrants and risks and threats, and so

450
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 3: this for me was super super interesting in terms of

451
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,199
Speaker 3: how we think about the world at the moment, at

452
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 3: our place here to what the future might hold. Because

453
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 3: we have two things here. One, we have a decent

454
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,440
Speaker 3: bit of evidence to show that the way we talk

455
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 3: about the future and progress of the culture actually has

456
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 3: a beneficial impact on us today and the future. And

457
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 3: two we've stopped doing that, And so that, for me

458
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 3: is just a super interesting thing to think about, both

459
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 3: in terms of how we've got to this point over

460
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 3: the last few decades of talking less about things getting

461
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 3: better and talking more about things getting worse, And then two,

462
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 3: how can we change that going forward?

463
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,959
Speaker 1: The sense is that the more we talk about things

464
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: getting worse, the more things actually do get worse.

465
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I mean it's obviously it's complex the way

466
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,360
Speaker 3: these things, these things work, and that causality can work

467
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 3: both ways. Obviously, you know, if the world becomes worse,

468
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 3: we're going to talk more about the world becoming worse.

469
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 3: But the interesting thing to think about here is how

470
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 3: much of what we talk about is about, for example,

471
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 3: the world getting scarier, and how much is the world

472
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 3: actually getting more dangerous? Because those two things for me

473
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 3: are quite different. Something can be dangerous, but because you

474
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 3: don't talk about it in that way, you might not

475
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,160
Speaker 3: be scared by it. And similarly, something can be feel

476
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 3: scary where it actually is it. So I think it's

477
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 3: useful to think about again the language here. And we

478
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 3: have all sorts of data, for example, on how news

479
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,400
Speaker 3: headlines have got much much more negative over the last Blackade.

480
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,120
Speaker 2: This is sort of the Fox News phenomenon.

481
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's spokes news, but I think we see

482
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 3: this kind of right across the political spectrum to a degree.

483
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 3: You know, it's not necessarily always scare mongering, but if

484
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 3: we're talking more about things getting worse or things that

485
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 3: we're worried about, then that does show up across the board.

486
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 3: And yet at the same time, we know that omity

487
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 3: has pretty much never been lower. We know that all

488
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 3: sorts of these things of life expectancy is generally, certainly for.

489
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 2: Most except in America.

490
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 3: It's this question of why are the way we talk

491
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 3: about the world has become so much more negative? And

492
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 3: what can we do to change that if we want to?

493
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 1: Is the regression thing? Is it tied to conservatism?

494
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 3: That's quite hard to pick out. I think from the

495
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 3: data I've seen, it's pretty much across the board. So

496
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 3: this is, as I say, it can manifest in different ways.

497
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 3: So with someone like within news organization like bots News,

498
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,919
Speaker 3: this might be talking about, for example, like vieas around

499
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 3: crime all the time, or maybe talking negatively about things

500
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 3: like immigration.

501
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 4: But then we.

502
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,439
Speaker 3: Also see this from more liberal and progressive outlets talking

503
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 3: much much more about things like inequality or poverty, even

504
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 3: when poverty has fallen and inequality by most measures have

505
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,919
Speaker 3: not risen over some time. So it's not saying that

506
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 3: the people using this language are deliberately trying to talk negatively,

507
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 3: but we do to see, depending on how you measure it. Basically,

508
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 3: this has happened right across the political spectrum.

509
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 1: And what's happening here is that this is breeding more nihilism,

510
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 1: right like, this catastrophizing creates a more nihilistic culture where

511
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: people are less are less interested in. I mean, again,

512
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 1: we don't really know, but there certainly is a theory

513
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 1: of the case that's that.

514
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, exactly. The things that have made society better

515
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 3: over the years have involved a bit of risk taking.

516
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 3: They've involved someone coming out and saying, you know what,

517
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 3: this might not work, but I'm going to try it,

518
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 3: and that attitude. That mindset tends to be squashed by

519
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,360
Speaker 3: things like worry and stress and fear. So that's the

520
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 3: theory here that as people start to worry more, and

521
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 3: especially as you say, when it gets to the level

522
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 3: of nihilism of just thinking well, you know, we're all screwed,

523
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 3: then that is that can be really paralyzing. And so

524
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:46,880
Speaker 3: so the key thing here is well, how can we

525
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 3: how can we change that? You know, climate change is

526
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,199
Speaker 3: a good example where if if you are if you

527
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 3: want to help make the world more resilient and help

528
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 3: reduce our impact on the planet, then if you're currently

529
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 3: thinking well, you know, we're all screwed, it's all over

530
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 3: by our kids are going to have no will to

531
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 3: work into then that does not empower you to make shape.

532
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 3: That makes you almost lean back. So is that question

533
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 3: of how we can fix that.

534
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: Climate change is such a good example because it's like,

535
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 1: here we have a problem that is enormous and cataclysmic,

536
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: but it's also you know, there are some things to

537
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: be hopeful about, and it keeps shifting like the ozone layer,

538
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: which growing up in the eighties and nineties was like

539
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: the focus is sort of regenerating. So we're in a

540
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: race against temperature. But there are reasons to be optimistic

541
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,719
Speaker 1: about something that was really presented to me as a

542
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: young child as cataclysmic. So I do think there's real

543
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 1: reason to not be nihilistic and to really take optimism

544
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: where we can get it.

545
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred percent. I think the the azone example

546
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 3: is a great one that made. Another one is acid rain.

547
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 3: So like when I was in school, we talked about

548
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 3: acid rain all the time, and then because of technology

549
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 3: is getting much cleaner and some regulations coming in, acid

550
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 3: rain is basically not say anymore. And it's the same

551
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 3: in all sorts of things, like lots of measures of

552
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 3: air pollution show that that's now at least not getting worse,

553
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 3: even though it's perhaps not quite getting better yet. And

554
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 3: all of the things that have allowed us does a species,

555
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 3: to have less impact on society have come from new technologies,

556
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:34,199
Speaker 3: cleaner technologies, more efficient technologies, not from you know, people

557
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,239
Speaker 3: just deciding well, I'm going to eat less or I'm

558
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 3: going to do less. And so basically to the extent

559
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 3: that we are tackling climate change, it's coming from though

560
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 3: that focus on growth and progress. A brilliant guest, you

561
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 3: should get on your show. Is a a woman called

562
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 3: hand of Richie who's just just got to book out

563
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 3: on on all of this in terms of of climate change.

564
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 3: But yeah, basically, if we care about a problem, we

565
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 3: want to fix that problem, then the best way of

566
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 3: doing that is to focus on progress and advancing and

567
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 3: what we can do more and better.

568
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

569
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: One last thing about the thing we just talked about

570
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: is the West talking itself into decline. The larger thesis

571
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: here is that the more negative your news is, the

572
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: more it creates a cycle of negativity that leads to

573
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: inactivity that leads to less good outcomes.

574
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 3: Exactly.

575
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: So let's talk about this life expectancy thing because I

576
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: just want you to go back and explain to us

577
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: the reason why Americans are more likely to die at

578
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: every age.

579
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a big question, but it's a as you say,

580
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 3: it's just an incredibly important thing for us to talk about.

581
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 3: And basically, I think a huge part of this, a huge,

582
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 3: absolutely enormous parts of this that I think people are

583
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 3: starting to get their heads around, but it's still understated,

584
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 3: is drugs. Is opioids out in particular. So I think

585
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 3: when people think about life expectancy, they tend to imagine

586
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,479
Speaker 3: two things. One they think about older people, because if

587
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 3: you know that life expectancy is in say the seventies

588
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,479
Speaker 3: or eighties, then you are the temptations to think, well,

589
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 3: you know, why is someone dying age seventy five instead

590
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 3: of seventy eight, for example. The second thing is that

591
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 3: people think about the healthcare system, because again they're thinking, well,

592
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 3: you know, we know that the American healthcare system is

593
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 3: more expensive, a few people have access to it, and therefore,

594
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 3: could that explain what's happening here? And I think, you know,

595
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 3: neither of those things are wrong, but I think they

596
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 3: both divert attention from where the bulk of this is

597
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 3: really happening. So if we start with the age the

598
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 3: age parts of this, when we look at what the

599
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 3: chances of Americans dying in any given year, if you

600
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 3: look at the chance of someone who is already seventy

601
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 3: five years old dying before they reach the age of

602
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 3: eighty or eighty five or ninety, that looks pretty much

603
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 3: the same in America as it does in Canada and

604
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 3: England and Wales and France, Germany all these other countries.

605
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 3: So this is not really about older people dying slightly

606
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 3: earlier in the US than elsewhere Whereas if you look

607
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 3: at someone who is ten years old or five years old,

608
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 3: and you look at the chance of them living to

609
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 3: reach say thirty or forty, and you look at that

610
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 3: in the US, missus elsewhere, there's an absolutely enormous gap.

611
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 3: So about one in twenty five American five year olds

612
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 3: will not live to reach forty years old. So imagine

613
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 3: like a classroom, like a five year olds, a kindergarten class.

614
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 3: One child in that class, on average in the US

615
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 3: will not live to be forty and that's just absolutely astonishing.

616
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 3: In all of these other rich countries, that's about one

617
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 3: in one hundred, and you know that is tragic enough,

618
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 3: but one in twenty five is astonishing. So the big difference,

619
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 3: the big thing that causes US life expectancy to be lower,

620
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 3: is far more people dying at age twenty or twenty

621
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 3: five or thirty or thirty five. And even though those

622
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 3: ages are really low, when you have huge amounts of

623
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 3: people dying at those ages, it could pull down the

624
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 3: whole number.

625
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: Because when one child dies, there are parents affected and

626
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: grandparents affected, and deaths of just spare and cultures effected.

627
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: I mean, and I'm not even talking about like you

628
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: lose a teenager and that's a loss for a community.

629
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean absolutely, But so it's a big impact

630
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 3: socially like that. But even just in terms of numbers,

631
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 3: if someone dies at age twenty instead of instead of

632
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 3: living to be eighty, that has a way bigger impact

633
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 3: on life expectancy than like twenty people dying at seventy

634
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 3: five instead of like seventy seven. So the big thing

635
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 3: that pulls down us life expectancy is all of these

636
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 3: people who die in their twenties and thirteen, and of

637
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 3: course all of those people in their twenties and thirties.

638
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 3: This comes on to the second part of this being

639
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 3: actually less about the healthcare system than people think. These

640
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 3: are not people who are dying because they're unable to

641
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 3: get access to medical attention to healthcare. These are people

642
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 3: who are dying because they've got a gunshot wound, or

643
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 3: they've had a fence in an overdose, or perhaps they've

644
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 3: been hit by a car. So there is very little

645
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 3: at this point that the healthcare system can actually do

646
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 3: for these people, even if they do get that far.

647
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 3: These are usually people who have simply been being killed.

648
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 3: But again, this is not to say that access to

649
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 3: healthcare is not important. It's not to say that we

650
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 3: shouldn't as a society and as interested people continue to

651
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 3: try and support politicians who are going to increase healthcare coverage.

652
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 3: But it's to say that when you really think about

653
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 3: what is dramatically different between America and other countries in

654
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 3: the West, it is people dying at young ages from

655
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 3: external injuries, homicide, suicide, guns, cars, these kinds of things,

656
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 3: and simply not being able to benefit from healthcare access

657
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 3: even if they had it, because they've been killed already.

658
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 3: So that is what makes US life expectancy so low,

659
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 3: and that is why the US life expectancy has gone

660
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 3: backwards so much in the last five to ten years.

661
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 3: It's not that loads of seventy five year olds have

662
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 3: started dying slightly early. It's that the number of twenty

663
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 3: and thirty year olds dying in America has absolutely rocketed,

664
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 3: especially due to vent it Up.

665
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: Thank you, John, so interesting, really appreciate you.

666
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 3: Thank to you.

667
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: Nick Confissi is a political investigations reporter at The New

668
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: York Times.

669
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,399
Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics, Nick, good to be here. Melly

670
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 2: very excited to have you. This piece is a banger. Okay.

671
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 1: So the title the piece of America is under attack

672
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 1: inside the ANTIDEI crusade. Can you talk us through how

673
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: this gets written a little bit?

674
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 4: Sure?

675
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 6: I mean I came into this story partly through some

676
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 6: reporting on Ron DeSantis, the governor of Florida. I did

677
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 6: a story last summer about how he had become kind

678
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,919
Speaker 6: of the education governor, how he had built so much

679
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 6: of his agenda as governor and then as a presidential

680
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 6: candidate around this idea of battling woke forces, left wing

681
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 6: forces and education K through twelve and college.

682
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 2: I feel like education should go in quote.

683
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 6: Well, listen, a governor has a lot of power over schools,

684
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 6: certainly in Florida, and he did a lot to change

685
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 6: what could be taught, how it could be taught, what

686
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 6: teachers could do. He was very aggressive about it, and

687
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 6: it was very popular to a certain extent in Florida,

688
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,240
Speaker 6: and it became his resume to be a top tier

689
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 6: presidential candidate. And so I was trying to find out

690
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 6: more about his work with outside education experts and activists

691
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 6: on the right, Moms for Liberty people at Hilldale College,

692
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 6: which is a conservative institution, and of course the Claremont Institute,

693
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 6: because the Claremont people had really been front and center

694
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 6: in his events. I mean, he had a gathering for

695
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 6: donors last winter in Florida where he essentially like gave

696
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 6: a stage to four people from the Claremont Institute, which

697
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 6: is in California, and said, tell us how to beat

698
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 6: woke in America, And they did a whole panel for donors.

699
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,399
Speaker 6: So I was looking for emails and documents that would

700
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 6: shed a little bit of light on the role of

701
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 6: these outside people in his policy making. And I got

702
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 6: some things for the DeSantis piece, but it turned out

703
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 6: that I was on to more of a trop with

704
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 6: information about not just Florida, but a whole loose network

705
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 6: of activists and advocates around the country that Claremont was

706
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 6: kind of at the center of that were behind a

707
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 6: lot of these efforts to ban quote unquote DEI in

708
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 6: higher education.

709
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean it's wild stuff.

710
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 1: So I would love like a family tree here to

711
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: sort of talk us through how these networks interact with

712
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: each other.

713
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 6: The Claremont Institute was founded by acolytes of the conservative

714
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 6: thinker Leo Stress, and over the years they had been

715
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:39,280
Speaker 6: kind of iconoclastic and sort of in opposition to mainstream conservatism.

716
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 6: They thought that mainstream Republican institutions, which they called conservatism

717
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 6: and were kind of complicit with a liberal regime that

718
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 6: was taking down the country. And when Trump came to power,

719
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 6: they found a real dovetailing between the Trump movement and

720
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,320
Speaker 6: their own ideas in thinking about American politics and culture.

721
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 6: And a big part of their beliefs is that higher

722
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 6: education is kind of the test bed for the liberal regime.

723
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 6: That's where the left, you know, controls people's thinking, breeds

724
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 6: future liberals, turns the educated class and the leadership class

725
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 6: into basically anti American people. And of course this kind

726
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 6: of sentiment overlaps with a broader set of gripes and.

727
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 4: Worries on the right.

728
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 6: And there isn't any shortage of conservatives who think that

729
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,919
Speaker 6: colleges are terrible and everyone there is liberal and kids

730
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 6: are learning crazy things. But what happened was that in

731
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 6: the aftermath of Black Lives Matters and the crazy Summer

732
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 6: of twenty twenty, they really felt on the defensive. A

733
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 6: lot of conservatives felt on the defensive about the new

734
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 6: movement for racial justice and some of its offshoots in academia,

735
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 6: in schools.

736
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 4: In workplaces.

737
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 6: And so this group of Claremont said, okay, we have

738
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 6: to take the fight, we have to fight back against this,

739
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 6: and how are we going to do it. We're going

740
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 6: to go after the colleges, the root of all evil.

741
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 6: And they scrounged up contributes from different foundations. Some of

742
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 6: them you may have heard of, some not. A lot

743
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 6: of the normal big funder is on the rights, and

744
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 6: smaller family foundations that aren't household names.

745
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,919
Speaker 1: There are one or two family foundations here right. It's

746
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 1: amazing to me we see a lot of the Tau

747
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: Family Foundation.

748
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 6: That was one that was listening to the documents as

749
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 6: a foundation that they had applied for funding from. The

750
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 6: Serle Freedom Trust, which is now based on Wisconsin, was

751
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 6: a group that they did get money for some projects on.

752
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 6: And these are foundations in the control of families who

753
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 6: tend to be on the right. And there was obviously,

754
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,919
Speaker 6: I'm sure as you know, in that period and even now,

755
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 6: there was just a lot of worry and anger what

756
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 6: was happening on college campuses. So I think they found

757
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 6: a ready audience when they said, look, we actually have

758
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 6: the solution here, and their strategy was simple, Let's do

759
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 6: a bunch of reports in conjunction with state think tanks.

760
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 6: Let's identify, basically through googling, by the way, let's identify

761
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 6: everybody who has DEI in their title. Well, right up,

762
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,720
Speaker 6: a report that says DEI is terrible, and what equity

763
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 6: actually means is this, and what diversity actually means. It's this,

764
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 6: it's anti white, it's it's racialism, it's it's reverse racism.

765
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 6: Here are all the people who do that stuff at this school.

766
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 6: Here's the report. Hand it to lawmakers and push them

767
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 6: to basically put those programs on the shopping block. And

768
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 6: that's kind of where you get some of these wholesale

769
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,720
Speaker 6: bands on DEI offices. The most sweeping courser in Florida

770
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 6: and Texas, they've actually said, look, you can't have offices

771
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 6: in personnel devoted to these things anymore. At public universities.

772
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 6: They've defunded them, and they believe that by doing this

773
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,879
Speaker 6: they can really reshape higher education to be wide. Well,

774
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 6: that's a really good question. You know, in earlier years

775
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 6: among mainstream conservatives, you saw a big push for what's

776
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 6: called institutional neutrality. You probably heard of the Chicago Principles right,

777
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 6: and this was an idea that the administrations of universities

778
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 6: should put their finger on the scale of what beliefs

779
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 6: are okay, what are like okay arguments and ideas. The

780
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 6: administration should just create an atmosphere where scholars and students

781
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 6: have intellectual freedom to explore the world and pursue knowledge.

782
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 6: And the most common argument on the right was, look,

783
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 6: can we go back to a state of more neutrality.

784
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 6: Can we stop having the deid cancel a talk by

785
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 6: a conservative because it made some people upset? We go

786
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 6: back to a place where everybody gets to say what

787
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 6: they want and study what they want and do scholarship

788
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 6: and let the best ideas went out. That was the

789
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,760
Speaker 6: old idea. But the Claremont people belong to a different

790
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 6: school of thought. Chris Ruffo, I think is also in

791
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 6: the school of thought. They come out of the more

792
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 6: traditional understanding of education. It's purpose, and in their minds,

793
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 6: academic freedom as a means to an end. It's not

794
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 6: worth much if it doesn't get you to the right

795
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 6: kind of society. And I think what's interesting is that

796
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 6: this vision of education where academic freedom really has to

797
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 6: be subordinated to creating the right kind of country is

798
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 6: actually something they happened in common with some people on

799
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 6: the left right who say that, look, academic freedom is

800
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 6: finding good, but it's not good if it hurts the

801
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 6: wrong people, if it bothers the wrong people. With these

802
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 6: ideas great an atmosphere that makes certain people feel unwelcome.

803
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 6: And so they kind of have that in common. And

804
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 6: then in the minimalism as an older tradition on the

805
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,320
Speaker 6: left end, the rate of let's have real academic freedom,

806
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 6: a real exchange of ideas. But the Claremont people basically

807
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 6: don't want to get back to a place of neutrality.

808
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 6: They actually want to replace what they think of as

809
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 6: the reigning ideology on campuses with their politics. And that's

810
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 6: in the emails I got. They say, look, are you

811
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 6: even find emails from the chairman of Claremont, Tom Klingenstein,

812
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 6: complaining about the way that most conservatives opposed CRT And

813
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 6: he was saying, we're not trying to get politics out

814
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 6: of the university. We're trying to get all our politics

815
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 6: into the university.

816
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 1: Can you do like two seconds on Christopher Ruffo, just

817
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:50,879
Speaker 1: for people who are not as terminally in this as

818
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 1: we are.

819
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 6: Chris Ruver is a conservative activist in documentarian and journalists

820
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 6: who was a Claremont scholar back in the day. It

821
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 6: was kind of part of their crowd at the Manhattan Institute,

822
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 6: and he's the guy who popularized critical race theory as

823
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 6: the kind of catch all term for stuffed conservatives didn't

824
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 6: like that liberals did about race and speech. That was

825
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 6: a very successful campaign because he got politicians around the

826
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 6: country to start outlying critical race theory, which you know,

827
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 6: is a fairly abstruse academic framework that basically tries to

828
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 6: look at how racism can be embedded in seemingly neutral laws, restitutions.

829
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 6: And I think in the conservative imagination, critical race theory

830
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 6: is kind of embedded in so many disciplines that it's

831
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 6: almost like a fundamental part of higher education. I think

832
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 6: that's kind of overdrawn. But as political branding, they're very

833
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,879
Speaker 6: successful and saying you cannot teach critical race theory, which

834
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 6: is something most people don't actually learn college. But what's

835
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 6: interesting in the story is around the time that Rufo

836
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 6: is popularizing CRT as this kind of buggerboop, the Claremont

837
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 6: people were strulling figure out what cash all term.

838
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 4: That they wanted to eat.

839
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 6: So they kept planning around with different things, and in

840
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 6: the emails they talked about how what they really oppose

841
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 6: is the regime of antidiscrimination, but you can't say that

842
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 6: because as a sacred cow, people think it's bad to discriminate,

843
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 6: and they aren't receptive to the bigger Claremont argument that

844
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 6: anti discrimination rules create this whole downstream effective kind of

845
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 6: rigid DEI trainings and things at schools, in the workplaces.

846
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:30,879
Speaker 6: And so they said, what else can we call it?

847
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 6: And how can we stigmatize this stuff? And sometimes they

848
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 6: called it critical social justice education and sometimes critical social

849
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,879
Speaker 6: justice And then within you know, eighteen months or two

850
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 6: years of this project on building, they were like, no,

851
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 6: let's call it DEDI, and they decided that was the

852
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 6: most effective brand for kind of all this stuff that

853
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 6: they like. And the reason I'm saying stuff, which is

854
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 6: not a very journalistic word, Molly, is it's actually a

855
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 6: pretty hard to put your finger in any of these

856
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 6: conversations and arguments about exactly what we're talking about when

857
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 6: we talk about DEI, because it encompasses this huge range

858
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 6: of policies and practices that probably vary a lot in

859
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 6: how reasonable people think they are, and so DEI has

860
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 6: become this catch all term for everything from you know,

861
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 6: a minority equipment program for first generation college students to

862
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 6: affirmative action. But they decided at one point DEI was

863
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 6: the way to go to kind of counterbrand and stigmatize

864
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 6: these liberal ideas.

865
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 4: Right.

866
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: It's so interesting in a way because it is like,

867
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: you think about the idea of like, being anti discrimination

868
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:44,359
Speaker 1: sounds like something that would be very hard to in

869
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 1: the modern world we live in be anti right, anti

870
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 1: anti discrimination seems like, I mean, at least, you know,

871
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 1: I live in a blue city in a blue state.

872
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 2: But I mean, that seems insane to me.

873
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: But the way they cooked it up is sort of

874
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 1: I guess the thinking.

875
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 2: Was that would be more palatable on the right.

876
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 5: You know.

877
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 6: MOLL is interesting because they basically argue that once you

878
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 6: have a set of laws that say you can't discriminate,

879
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 6: and this is their argument, you inevitably get to the

880
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,439
Speaker 6: iban Kennedy version or the idea of anti racism that

881
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 6: if you say you can't discriminate, then, in their view,

882
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 6: inevitably you end up with processes and rules that say

883
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 6: that if there is any difference in outcome among racial

884
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 6: groups just because of racism, and therefore you've got to

885
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 6: flatten out those differences and mandates different outcomes.

886
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:35,800
Speaker 4: And that's what they hit the most.

887
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 6: Equity, right, this idea of equity that you have to

888
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 6: produce similar outcomes somehow.

889
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 1: But it's built on the supposition that the white guys

890
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: who get the job are actually the most qualified, and

891
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,840
Speaker 1: not that the system is inherently benefficiary to them, but

892
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:50,720
Speaker 1: they are inherently the beneficiaries.

893
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 6: I think it's even deeper than that. Their argument, and

894
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 6: this is in the emails, is that discrepancies and outcome

895
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 6: is just not a problem. Their argument, their belief is that,

896
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,439
Speaker 6: and this is in one of the emails, Blacks will

897
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 6: be overrepresented in some spheres whites and others Asians and

898
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 6: a stillators. Unquoting loosely from an email from Scott yen Or,

899
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 6: who was the head of this project for Claremont, to

900
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,919
Speaker 6: Tom Clinstein, the Claremont chairman. They believe that these are

901
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 6: not really areas of social concern, that these differences are

902
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 6: normal and natural and we should worry about it, and

903
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 6: that in trying to worry about it and fix it,

904
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 6: we create a terrible society.

905
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 1: When you saw these emails, were you Some of them

906
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 1: are so blatantly disgusting. I mean, like the one where

907
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: she complains about nanny's. It's hard to read these emails

908
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 1: and not think that a lot of these people are racist.

909
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 6: Well, that one ely are talking about is from Heather McDonald,

910
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 6: who is a fellow at the Manhattanst to Hear in

911
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 6: New York. She was not formerly a part of the

912
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:53,319
Speaker 6: Claremont program or campaign, but she corresponded frequently with the

913
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 6: personnel of Claremont who were most involved, and so we

914
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 6: saw a lot of banter between them, and you know,

915
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:01,959
Speaker 6: I obviously was checked by that email as well, where

916
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 6: she basically castigated working women who have nannies from what

917
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 6: head of McDonald called the low IQ third world, and

918
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 6: basically that they're bad mothers for outsourcing their childcare to

919
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 6: those caregivers. And the and the email donald says that

920
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 6: she was walking around her neighborhood in Manhattan and saw

921
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 6: the nannies and this is what she thought, And a

922
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 6: friend of mine was joking, that's what you thought, Like

923
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,760
Speaker 6: that was your first thought that there was this huge

924
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 6: social problem of female lawyers outsourcing their child rearing to

925
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 6: people with low IQ's and that was your first thought,

926
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:36,319
Speaker 6: but I guess it was to release one of her

927
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 6: first thoughts. You also see this really pronounced hostility to

928
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 6: gay people. And one thing that was a little surprising

929
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 6: to me in the reporting, I kind of expected to

930
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 6: find a lot of traffic and email about trans healthcare,

931
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 6: trans issues, and maybe it was because I wasn't searching

932
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 6: for the right documents from my document requests, but there

933
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 6: was very little of that. There was a lot of

934
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 6: talking about Gabe on gay Man in.

935
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 2: Particular right and Peter Teal.

936
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 6: They were gossiping about Peter Teal, who had a minor scandal.

937
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 6: I guess you could call it. That's what they call it.

938
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: Is that him husband falling out the window.

939
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 6: I don't have the details right in front of it,

940
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 6: but there was a boyfriend.

941
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 4: I believe he committed suicide.

942
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: Not the husband. So the husband was okay, but the

943
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 1: boyfriend died.

944
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 6: There was a confrontation between the Teal's husband and boyfriend,

945
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 6: and the boyfriend committed suicide. I believe the story. Again,

946
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 6: but you know, they were gossiping about that. But their

947
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 6: gossip was, oh, it's so Taudry that he had an

948
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 6: affair and that's just the way of gays to have

949
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:39,760
Speaker 6: these affairs because of quote testosterone unchecked by female modesty.

950
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 6: I was like Adam Heather mat Donald. But you also

951
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 6: see emails and discussion from Scott yan or Claremont. We're

952
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 6: talking about essentially his belief that there can't be a

953
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 6: healthy society until homosexuality is restigmatized, until gay people are

954
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 6: back in the closet. I think we're living in an

955
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,399
Speaker 6: odd era at Molly, Like on the one end, gay

956
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 6: marriage is legal on the other and it's under attack. Again.

957
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 6: This kind of fairly new right is under attack and

958
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 6: there is a backlash in many dimensions. I guess it

959
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 6: was naive of me, but I was surprised to read that.

960
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 6: I was a little surprised that pure dislike and the

961
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 6: really throwback kind of attitude, but kind of more than that,

962
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 6: this fear that public acceptance of homosexuality was going to

963
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 6: lead to social ruin, that it was somehow undermining Western civilization.

964
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 6: That's how they think about it.

965
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they suck. Thank you so much for joining us, nag.

966
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 3: It's great to be with you.

967
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 4: No moment.

968
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 1: Rick Wilson here we are you and I what is

969
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 1: your moment of fuckery?

970
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 5: My moment of fuckery this week is Donald Trump and

971
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 5: Greg Abbot and this bullshit on the border where they

972
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 5: have a one mile section of border that they've declared

973
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 5: to be the Berlin Wall of Greg Abbot's version of

974
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 5: Bertle and they're pretending this is some great national crisis.

975
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 5: They won't pass an immigration bill because they want it

976
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 5: for a political issue. They're not doing anything on the

977
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,359
Speaker 5: border right now with this National Guard group except for

978
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 5: you know, trying to get you know, Fox stories over

979
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:18,879
Speaker 5: and over again of just how dangerous the border caravans are.

980
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 5: And the final element of the fuckery is all these

981
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:25,919
Speaker 5: other Republican governors saying, well, I'm gonna send my National Guard,

982
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 5: and DeSantis is sending his own like personal shock troop army.

983
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,720
Speaker 5: They formed a couple of years ago, the Florida Guard,

984
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 5: as I call it, the run Stuffele. You know, they're

985
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 5: gonna all send them down there and they're gonna they're

986
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 5: gonna guard the border. What they're saying is be Trump

987
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 5: Supreme Court who said we can't do this. We're going

988
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 5: to ignore them on this one and keep throwing kids

989
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 5: into barbed wire in an ice cold river. Good look, guys,

990
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:51,359
Speaker 5: good fucking luck.

991
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 1: My moment of fuckery is this that this weekend, and

992
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 1: you and I, since we're Internet people, you and I,

993
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: you will know exactly what I'm talking.

994
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:01,400
Speaker 2: About this weekend.

995
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:05,359
Speaker 1: While Donald Trump finally Judge Kaplan found a number of

996
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 1: which Donald Trump cans decided right, it's too expensive for defamation.

997
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:14,320
Speaker 1: All of Donald Trump's allies, all of those Internet people

998
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: you know who may or may not even live in

999
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: this country, those guys who run you know, go News one,

1000
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 1: two three and Maga World you know, and bright Bard

1001
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 1: and also would let us not forget. I don't even

1002
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 1: want to say their names because I don't want to

1003
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: elevate them. Those guys spent the weekend just trying to

1004
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 1: find trash on Egene Carroll, going through every Internet thing

1005
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: they could find, every doc.

1006
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 5: YEP, every article she's ever written, trying to find one

1007
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 5: moment where she wasn't exactly.

1008
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 2: Every time she said she liked sex.

1009
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 1: They've decided that that is now an excuse that a

1010
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 1: man can violate her. Here's the deal, guys, that's not

1011
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 1: how any of this.

1012
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 4: Works, not how any of this works until.

1013
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 1: They are able to control this country, which is their dream.

1014
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 1: We still have rules and laws against what you can

1015
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 1: do to people, even if they like sex, and for that,

1016
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 1: those misogynistic assholes are my moment of fucker.

1017
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 5: Mollie Can I had a small supplementary moment of fuckery. Yes,

1018
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:22,439
Speaker 5: I think this is one that I think America really

1019
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 5: needs to be prepared for. This weekend was the first

1020
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 5: weekend of the release of Ben Shapiro's rap song Yes

1021
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 5: I Will tell you It's in the In the apocrypha

1022
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 5: locked in a Secrevatican library, is a prophecy that when

1023
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 5: Ben Shapiro's rap career begins, it is the end of

1024
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 5: the earth as we know it and the apocalypse is

1025
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 5: near it. I just want to say those words together

1026
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 5: one more time, Ben Shapiro's rap career.

1027
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 2: I thought it was satire when I saw it first.

1028
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 4: Apparently no. So anyway, thanks.

1029
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 2: For having me now you're the best, so good, Thank you,

1030
00:52:59,719 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 2: thank you.

1031
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

1032
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds

1033
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

1034
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend.

1035
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 1: And keep the conversation going. And again thanks for listening.