Speaker 1: The Conclave, who are the major candidates for pope and
Speaker 1: how will the last pope determine his successor? The Conclave
Speaker 1: Crew has answers on this edition of The Arroyo Grande
Speaker 1: Show with Raymond Arroyo from Rome. Thanks, I'm Raymond Royal.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Royal Grande, coming to you from Rome. Go
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Speaker 1: Conclave Crew, Father Gerald Murray Cannon, lawyer from the Archdiocese
Speaker 1: of New York, and Robert Royal, editor in chief of
Speaker 1: The Catholic Thing dot Org. I'm Raymond Royo. We're going
Speaker 1: to explore the major candidates for the papacy, at least
Speaker 1: those we're hearing about most frequently as we travel about Rome,
Speaker 1: as we go to dinners and talk with cardinals, and
Speaker 1: later we'll explore the factors that will determine this papal
Speaker 1: election that you might not be aware of. Watch Bob,
Speaker 1: I'm going to start with you about the history of
Speaker 1: this process of selecting a pope. I know in twelve
Speaker 1: seventy four they instituted this idea of locking the cardinals
Speaker 1: into the Cistine chapel kunkab with the key. And the
Speaker 1: reason was, I think the conflict was just going too long.
Speaker 1: It was over several years, and they felt they couldn't
Speaker 1: put up with this anymore, so they locked them in
Speaker 1: and denied them food. Tell me about the current version
Speaker 1: of this. Why have these traditions endured? Why continue to
Speaker 1: do that when they could meet in the Paul the
Speaker 1: sixth Senate Hall where they've been meeting and pick a
Speaker 1: pope there.
Speaker 2: Well, besides the beauty and the tradition of the Cystine chapel,
Speaker 2: I think that it's important and people have realized this
Speaker 2: more and more, particularly with all the electronic surveillance capabilities
Speaker 2: that exist, that these people when they go into vote
Speaker 2: are really insulated from any pressure.
Speaker 3: There's plenty of pressure from.
Speaker 2: The outside right now, all kinds of groups talking to
Speaker 2: people and trying to get their you know, their channel
Speaker 2: moving along. But you've got a certain pascheantry to this
Speaker 2: that I think is kind of important to preserve because
Speaker 2: otherwise this just becomes a democratic process, and it's not that.
Speaker 2: It really is reaching back into a long history of
Speaker 2: two thousand year history of the successors to Peter. And
Speaker 2: what better place to kind of convey that than in
Speaker 2: the splendor that Michaelangelo painted that gives us not only
Speaker 2: the moment of creation, but the prophets and so much
Speaker 2: more in the Sistine Chapel and.
Speaker 1: Father, I imagine there's a little fear and trembling when you
Speaker 1: approach that Michelangelo masterpiece of the Last Judgment, and he's
Speaker 1: got popes and bishops, you know, in the mire of
Speaker 1: hell there. So I guess it's a reminder as they
Speaker 1: make their power to God and cast their vote.
Speaker 4: Surely that's exactly what's going on. In fact, yes, this
Speaker 4: is a sacred activity that they're engaged in selecting the
Speaker 4: next Bishop of Rome, the next Vicar of Christ, the
Speaker 4: next Supreme Ponta. So to contemplate the eternal judgment that
Speaker 4: God renders on us. That's that's the best way to
Speaker 4: make a good vote, I think, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to talk for a moment everybody. For
Speaker 1: those who are new to this, they see these men
Speaker 1: wearing red, which is a way of signifying their willingness
Speaker 1: to spill their blood for Christ. Talk a bit about
Speaker 1: how they're selected, why a cardinal is different from a bishop, Bob,
Speaker 1: I'll let you start there.
Speaker 2: Well, I'll defers to a certain extent to our canonist here,
Speaker 2: of course. But cardinals obviously have a special status. They're bishops,
Speaker 2: like all other bishops in the church. They normally are
Speaker 2: selected because they are presiding over a large sea. It
Speaker 2: could be a place like Paris, although Paris doesn't have
Speaker 2: one because but Francis chose not.
Speaker 3: To do that.
Speaker 2: It could be a place like Milan. Milan does not
Speaker 2: have one this time because of the previous pope selections.
Speaker 2: But as we know from the United States and elsewhere,
Speaker 2: in a place like New York, Chicago, can of Los
Speaker 2: Angeles has not been chosing this Timerald. They're the places
Speaker 2: they typically you select a bishop from because he has
Speaker 2: a wide experience, he has a large responsibility already. And
Speaker 2: these are the men that come together periodically, very often.
Speaker 2: They've been appointed to these dead castories that they've run,
Speaker 2: the various offices in the Roman courtier. They get to
Speaker 2: know one another, they learned about the business of the church.
Speaker 2: They advise the Holy Father and it's a good way
Speaker 2: to have a kind of a collegiality at a very
Speaker 2: high level, but without reducing it to simply kind of
Speaker 2: a representation by regions or a kind of a democratic process.
Speaker 2: It's a kind of a spirituality linked with the practicalities
Speaker 2: of a global church.
Speaker 1: In the last few days, some candidates seem to be
Speaker 1: moving to the fore and I've been getting a lot
Speaker 1: of emails over the weekend and today tell us who
Speaker 1: the candidates are. Now, I say these aim to be
Speaker 1: on the roster because this process feels more vague than
Speaker 1: the last two conclaves, mostly because these men don't know
Speaker 1: each other and they are not aligned in their vision
Speaker 1: of the church or perspective on the world. So I
Speaker 1: want to start. I'm going to break this up into groups.
Speaker 1: We'll start with the progressive candidates, who were hearing the
Speaker 1: most about while we're in Rome, then move on to
Speaker 1: the traditional conservative candidates, and then those who might be
Speaker 1: considered compromised, starting with Cardinal Pietro Paoline father than Bob.
Speaker 1: The oddsmakers have him at the top of their list.
Speaker 1: He's seventy years old, the second most powerful man in
Speaker 1: the Vatican after Pope Francis. He was a lifelong diplomat.
Speaker 1: He worked in Nigeria, in Mexico. Father his great protege
Speaker 1: was Cardinal Silver Screening, who was part of that Saint
Speaker 1: Gallen group that we have to say it engineered Pope
Speaker 1: Francis's election. Why might cardinals choose him and why not?
Speaker 4: Cardinal Paroline would represent continuity to a large extent with
Speaker 4: the vision and actions of Poe France. He worked with
Speaker 4: Pout Francis for twelve years. As the Secretary of State.
Speaker 4: He was implementing most of post Francis's important decisions in
Speaker 4: the international field, such as the China Deal, such as
Speaker 4: his concern for ecology and immigration. Cardinal Paroline is well
Speaker 4: known because most of the cardinals, all of them would
Speaker 4: have met him when they came to Rome in order
Speaker 4: to receive their red hat. So other cardinals don't know
Speaker 4: each other often cases because there were no very few
Speaker 4: general meetings of the cardinals under Pot Francis, they all
Speaker 4: know who Cardinal Paroline is, so yeah, he would represent continuity.
Speaker 4: His style is less abrasive than post Francis, For Francis
Speaker 4: did have an abrasive style with people that he disagreed with.
Speaker 4: And a few people found out to their regret that
Speaker 4: if you crossed Po Francis disagreed, you might not continue
Speaker 4: to be living where you are, such as Archbishop Gensfeind
Speaker 4: was told to leave Rome and Cardinal berg was told
Speaker 4: to leave his residence. I would expect Paralleline to get
Speaker 4: a lot of votes on the first day.
Speaker 1: Really, Okay, Bob, tell me about that China deal with
Speaker 1: father reference. That obviously a major dark mark on Pope
Speaker 1: Francis's pontificate. But Cardinal Parlene was at the center of that.
Speaker 1: He was the man moving it. Really, he was moving
Speaker 1: it from the early you know, the earliest moments of
Speaker 1: this pontificate and the Vatican finances with which he bears
Speaker 1: some culpability. Talk to me about that. A story just
Speaker 1: emerged that his signature showed up on that London real
Speaker 1: estate deal that went belly up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, these are two things that I think are probably
Speaker 2: already limiting the number of people who are willing to
Speaker 2: support him, because we know from people like our friend
Speaker 2: Cardinal Zen, who has been a very courageous, clear voice
Speaker 2: for the Catholics and others just human rights defense in
Speaker 2: that awful communist Chinese regime. We know that he's that
Speaker 2: this agreement is basically abandoned Chinese Catholics. Just during this interregnum,
Speaker 2: we have seen that these Chinese have appointed two bishops.
Speaker 2: They are in theory, we don't know what the accord was,
Speaker 2: but in theory they're supposed to propose some candidates and
Speaker 2: Rome is either supposed to say yes or no. There's
Speaker 2: no one in Rome right now to approve or disapprove,
Speaker 2: and they just appointed two bishops, knowing full well that
Speaker 2: there's no partner that they're in conversation with. So I
Speaker 2: think anybody who's paying attention knows that Cardinal Potterlin has
Speaker 2: just blown it with the Chinese. The Church is under
Speaker 2: the thumb of a totalitarian regime and there doesn't seem
Speaker 2: to be any way to roll this back.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: Similarly, the thing that you just mentioned on Sloan Street
Speaker 2: in London where the church lost probably just short of
Speaker 2: two hundred million euros, maybe even more of We don't
Speaker 2: really know how that shaked out in the end, and
Speaker 2: he was closely responsible for that. Now, you know, you
Speaker 2: try to track these money matters down in the Vatican
Speaker 2: etiquets extremely complicated. People are pointing fingers at one another.
Speaker 2: The Pope signed off on this. He signed off. But
Speaker 2: however you want to want to ultimately decide about this,
Speaker 2: Cardinal Paroline is responsible for losing more money than probably
Speaker 2: the entire Vatican has as his budget for a given year.
Speaker 2: So that too, at a time when we know that
Speaker 2: there's a tremendous deficit for the Vatican employees in their
Speaker 2: retirement funds. The yearly operations of the Vatican are very
Speaker 2: very poor shape. They're selling off assets to kind of
Speaker 2: meet their expenses here after year. These are two tough things,
Speaker 2: and I think people who are looking for a kind
Speaker 2: of reformer who is going to take a slightly different
Speaker 2: direction are going.
Speaker 3: To have some doubts about capowerline.
Speaker 1: Father. Before we leave this topic, there was a health
Speaker 1: scare Cardinal Parolini, it was reported, had a panic attack.
Speaker 1: They brought medical personnel in that attended to them for
Speaker 1: an hour. The Vatican then came out and denied that story.
Speaker 1: But I've spoken to a couple of cardinals who claimed
Speaker 1: they were there and saw it. How would that impact
Speaker 1: his candidacy.
Speaker 4: Do you think, yes, well, you know, a healthscare based
Speaker 4: on some incident involving fluctuating blood pressure well, that could
Speaker 4: indicate that the cardinal has a problem that needs to
Speaker 4: be attended to. There certainly wouldn't give confidence that you know,
Speaker 4: he's going to be a candidate who will not encounter
Speaker 4: some medical difficulties. Hard to read without further knowledge, but yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean the fact that Vatican denies that other people
Speaker 4: say it happened, their right witnesses, etc. A little bit
Speaker 4: of intrigue that I'm sure Cardinal Paralley would prefer not
Speaker 4: to have.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about Cardinal Lewis Antonio Toadgley sixty seven
Speaker 1: years old, the kind of a brilliant Asian cardinal from
Speaker 1: the Philippines, warm experior known as the Asian Francis. He
Speaker 1: was close to that Polonia school and continues to be
Speaker 1: a proponent starting with Bob, what is that Bob? And
Speaker 1: what do you make of Togli as a candidate?
Speaker 2: Well, in a nutshell, the Bologna school put this a
Speaker 2: little bit simply is a proponent of what is called
Speaker 2: a hermineutic of rupture, in other words, an understanding of
Speaker 2: Vatican two that claims that Vatican who broke with the
Speaker 2: previous Church. Now contrary to that, of course, we had
Speaker 2: Pope Benedict who talked about a hermautic of continuity, because
Speaker 2: in Catholicism there really can't be a radical contradiction between
Speaker 2: one period of the Church and another. I mean, we
Speaker 2: are always throughout history we're in the same church as
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ established.
Speaker 3: But Toadley was very.
Speaker 2: Close to that so called school of Bologna. I mean
Speaker 2: for something like fifteen years he was involved with their
Speaker 2: conferences and whatnot, and they've been a very powerful voice
Speaker 2: here in Italy for promoting that idea of rupture. And
Speaker 2: other's changed. There's always change when you have a conference
Speaker 2: or a senate or whatever, but rupture is something quite different,
Speaker 2: and for him to have been that deeply into it,
Speaker 2: for me, it raises some profound and even kind of
Speaker 2: fundamental questions about who he is. The other thing about
Speaker 2: him is I don't think of him as a mature
Speaker 2: and stable candidate, if I can put that way. You know,
Speaker 2: he's outgoing and he said bulliant, but I think we
Speaker 2: want to Pupe with a little bit of gravitas this time.
Speaker 1: Father Toddley was brought to Rome by Pope Francis after
Speaker 1: Dnity made march Bishop of Manila in twenty nineteen, he
Speaker 1: was prefected the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples. Then
Speaker 1: they restructured it he became pro prefect. He was also
Speaker 1: president of Caratas International, which is a huge international charity.
Speaker 1: The Pope fired him and the entire leadership team in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. Will that affect his chances here?
Speaker 4: Well, it'll certainly cause questions among people. Is he a
Speaker 4: competent manager? What was the reason the Pope fired him?
Speaker 4: We never got a full explanation on it, but yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean, as with any management position, if your immediate
Speaker 4: superior loses confidence in you, you're either a victim or
Speaker 4: somebody who failed, and I would say he could be
Speaker 4: a combination of both.
Speaker 1: He also has a spotty sex abuse record, according to
Speaker 1: some of the reportage, and by that there was I
Speaker 1: mean there was a convicted pedophile whom he allowed to
Speaker 1: stay on the job at Caratas, which could be an
Speaker 1: explanation for why he and the leadership team were cleaned out.
Speaker 1: But I want to move on. Cardinal Anders Arborelis of
Speaker 1: Sweden seventy five year old. He was Pope Francis's pick.
Speaker 1: This is interesting. He was Pope Francis's pick as his
Speaker 1: own successor. He entered the Carmelite monastery was elevated by
Speaker 1: John Paul the Second. He said, I didn't really understand
Speaker 1: that I had to decide things. I was not used
Speaker 1: to it. I had never held an eleading position in
Speaker 1: a monastery either, and rather withdrawn by nature. Father. He
Speaker 1: has a great devotion to the Euchrist, the Virgin Mary.
Speaker 1: He's opposed to the German sonon a way. Your thoughts
Speaker 1: on his candidacy.
Speaker 4: Now, I think he's an excellent Candiday. He is a
Speaker 4: convert to the faith. He's the first native Swiss, native
Speaker 4: Swedish bishop since the Reformation, and he's done an outstanding job.
Speaker 3: In my opinion.
Speaker 4: The Nordic Bishop's conference is one of the best in
Speaker 4: the world. They have some excellent bishops in the Scandinavian countries.
Speaker 4: The man is very educated, a linguist, so I think
Speaker 4: he would be a very good candidate for the papacy
Speaker 4: and someone that will get a serious consideration during the voting.
Speaker 1: Bob Wire progressives advancing that candidacy, do you think.
Speaker 2: Well, there are certain issues in which he follows along
Speaker 2: with Francis. I think he's a strong proponent of further immigration.
Speaker 2: I don't see why, because Sweden is actually very disturbed
Speaker 2: because of kind of unremulated Muslim immigration. It seems that
Speaker 2: some of the immigration has added to the numbers of
Speaker 2: Catholics up in Sweden. So maybe there's a kind of
Speaker 2: a nuance that he has about what that is. Father
Speaker 2: mentioned that he's a linguist. I looked into the because
Speaker 2: I studied multiple languages when I was younger, and I'm
Speaker 2: not sure he speaks Italian.
Speaker 3: This would be quite interesting.
Speaker 2: If he doesn't, how is he going to conduct his
Speaker 2: babacy in English? Or he may be a quick study
Speaker 2: and maybe he'll learn learn Italian. And also I think
Speaker 2: this would be an interesting twist. He started life as
Speaker 2: a Lutheran, so we would probably be getting a Lutheran
Speaker 2: Protestant in the back door to come in as a pope.
Speaker 2: But he seems to be a very fine man, a
Speaker 2: very serious, thoughtful, spiritual man. I also hope that he's
Speaker 2: a good administrator, because the next pound is going to
Speaker 2: have to be one.
Speaker 1: We're hearing a lot of chatter also about Cardinal Jean
Speaker 1: Marc Aveline. He's sixty six years old, Archbishop of Marseille
Speaker 1: doctorate in theology, an intimate friend of Pope Francis. Every
Speaker 1: time he was here, they'd enjoy time together and spend
Speaker 1: time together. He's claims that all the reporters claims that
Speaker 1: he reflects Francis's love for immigrants, religious dialogue without an
Speaker 1: emphasis on conversion. Father, your reaction to this candidacy, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he just shares many traits that Pot Francis brought forth
Speaker 1: during his twelve years of the pontificate. He is a
Speaker 1: French cardinal and an important diasis in Marseille. But you know,
Speaker 1: it's something the cardinals will think about him.
Speaker 4: I'll say that much if they want a continuity, in
Speaker 4: other words, continue Francis's different emphasis, you know, economic, political, social,
Speaker 4: and doctrinal. I think Abilene would fit the bill, Bob.
Speaker 1: He's a big advocate for decentralizing the church and the
Speaker 1: Sonatyl model, which he is a big advocate of. Is
Speaker 1: that what these electors are looking for? Is that what
Speaker 1: you're hearing here?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think that he raises a question,
Speaker 2: because we've talked about this before in other context, that
Speaker 2: do you put your emphasis mostly on going along to
Speaker 2: get along with people around you?
Speaker 3: Or do you are you a.
Speaker 2: More forceful evangelizer? And he was born in Algeria when
Speaker 2: Algeria was still a department of France, so it was
Speaker 2: technically part of France, and so he's a little bit
Speaker 2: sympathetic for the North Africans who were moving into Europe.
Speaker 2: And of course Marseille is a very mixed city, and
Speaker 2: you have to be able to manage the situations that
Speaker 2: you're in. But you know, here comes the question do
Speaker 2: we really want to have well, Europeans really want to
Speaker 2: see more Muslim immigration. The Muslims who already exist in
Speaker 2: most of the large European countries are going to have
Speaker 2: to be managed in some fashion. They can't be quite integrated.
Speaker 2: They seem to be resistance to integration. Is the church
Speaker 2: that he would lead going to be one that consistently
Speaker 2: emphasizes listening and welcoming rather than evangelizing. It seems to
Speaker 2: me that that's a question not only about him, but
Speaker 2: it's going to be for others that you of course,
Speaker 2: you want to have peace in the world, to try
Speaker 2: to have to reduce conflict, but the church is in
Speaker 2: business to evangelize. Christ told us to go out and
Speaker 2: preach the Gospel to all nations.
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to move to the more traditional candidates. First,
Speaker 1: Cardinal Peter Erdo, seventy two year old Archbishop of Budapest
Speaker 1: in Hungary. Degrees in theology, in canon law. In fact,
Speaker 1: he was a professor to our confre Father Murray. He's
Speaker 1: regarded as a holy man devoted to the liturgy. But
Speaker 1: you even hear it this week in discussions, a timid man,
Speaker 1: even a shy man. What do we know of Father Murray?
Speaker 1: A very accurate description.
Speaker 4: Brilliant scholar, a long time of Archbishop of Budapest. He
Speaker 4: has force of conviction. He's definitely someone who knows the
Speaker 4: difference between.
Speaker 3: Right and wrong.
Speaker 4: He's able to analyze the Sonadel Way, for instance. He's
Speaker 4: able to analyze Marris Lititzi and the whole question of
Speaker 4: what do we do regarding community for divorce and remarried.
Speaker 4: He is soft spoken, but he also speaks I think
Speaker 4: five languages, so he speaks Italian.
Speaker 3: He would have perfect ease at that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he represents, in my opinion, someone who's eminently qualified
Speaker 4: to continue the heritage of John Paul the second in
Speaker 4: Pope Benedict, and then to modify those elements of Pope Francis,
Speaker 4: this pontificate, which, in my opinion, the opinion I think
Speaker 4: of many cardinals need to be revised because they were,
Speaker 4: you know, in conflict with what was taught previously.
Speaker 1: Bob, Cardinal George pell a friend of ours here of
Speaker 1: happy memory, he thought Erdol would be the perfect successor
Speaker 1: to Pope Francis, because I remember him saying he could
Speaker 1: restore the rule of law to the Holy see your thoughts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, when I hear this talk about him
Speaker 2: being timid, I was actually in the room. I think
Speaker 2: Father Murray was as well. In the first Senate on
Speaker 2: the Family, there was an interim report that came out
Speaker 2: and in the Sala Stampa it was noted in the
Speaker 2: summary that there was a paragraph asking people to value
Speaker 2: what was good in homosexual relationship. And you know, people
Speaker 2: were utterly stunned that this was coming in a Vatican document.
Speaker 2: It was the first time that it had happened. And
Speaker 2: Airdu was the chairman of that session when they were
Speaker 2: presenting the intermediate report, and he pointed to Archbishop Bruno
Speaker 2: Forte and he said to yes, people wanted to know,
Speaker 2: how is this there, what does this mean? And he
Speaker 2: pointed out him and he said, look, you wrote that paragraft.
Speaker 2: Why don't you explain it to the people.
Speaker 3: So he may be quiet, he may.
Speaker 2: Be soft spoken, but he's also willing to put somebody
Speaker 2: on the spot when there's a reason to do that,
Speaker 2: for a reason of doctrinal clarity. I think also because
Speaker 2: he's a European, and a European not from one of
Speaker 2: the major European countries but a little bit outside I
Speaker 2: like Hungary and Slovakian and Portugal, some of these sort
Speaker 2: of marginal European I think.
Speaker 3: He brings a.
Speaker 2: More steadying European influence to a europe that is in
Speaker 2: a lot of turmoil in France, in Italy and England, Germany,
Speaker 2: of course, and it would be very interesting to see
Speaker 2: what kind of influence he would have.
Speaker 1: I want to now talk about Cardinal Robert Sarah, someone
Speaker 1: who we've encountered in different ways. The seventy nine year
Speaker 1: old former head of the Discipline of the Sacraments, clashed
Speaker 1: with Pope Francis on the direction of the liturgy and
Speaker 1: other matters. An Orthodox man son of converts from Animism
Speaker 1: in Guinea, and he resisted a Marxist dictatorship as a
Speaker 1: thirty four year old bishop, earning him the title Baby Bishop.
Speaker 1: Tell me about his Orthodoxy father, particularly his love of
Speaker 1: sacred worship as the head of the Vatican Liturgy Office
Speaker 1: until Pope Francis removed him.
Speaker 4: Yes, Cardinal Sayah is a remarkable man. He's written a
Speaker 4: number of books, question and answer books in which he
Speaker 4: reveals his life history, his convictions, his analysis of the
Speaker 4: situation of the church. Now, he has been very forceful.
Speaker 4: He wrote a book called God or Nothing, and he said,
Speaker 4: that's the question all mankind faces today. Do we follow
Speaker 4: God or do we opt for the nothingness, which is
Speaker 4: what humanity without God is. He's seventy nine years old
Speaker 4: to turn eighty in the month of June. He's still
Speaker 4: in good health. He's a vigorous man of prayer, very
Speaker 4: serious about spiritual life as being the center of his life.
Speaker 4: So this is one of my favorite cardinals, let alone
Speaker 4: human beings on the planet. So I hope and pray
Speaker 4: that he will get consideration.
Speaker 1: Bob. He's a very fearless and faithful man. I mean,
Speaker 1: he spoke out against the suppression of the Latin Liturgy,
Speaker 1: the dangers of the Sonatal way and the synod on Cinnadale.
Speaker 1: And tell me about the book he released with Pope
Speaker 1: Benedict quickly on celibacy that caused an enormous stir and
Speaker 1: will that hurt his chances? Do you think or lift them?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I think that although that book was kind of a
Speaker 2: scandal at the time, and because of the relationships of
Speaker 2: Benedict with a Pope Francis, it might be really it
Speaker 2: might be overinterpreted now for us to think look back
Speaker 2: and think that that might harm it. Look, he's a
Speaker 2: terrific man. There's no question that if we want a
Speaker 2: pope that's going to radiate holiness and radiate what Jesus
Speaker 2: Christ is in his church, there could be no better
Speaker 2: candidate than him. Now, as a somewhat historian of the church,
Speaker 2: I have to point out that Celestian the fifth, it
Speaker 2: was very saintly in his way to think it was
Speaker 2: the previous pope who resigned, previous Ratzinger to bene at
Speaker 2: the sixteen was a monk and came in because there
Speaker 2: was a two year hiatus in the papacy and the
Speaker 2: electors were told, you know, you got to make a decision.
Speaker 2: They brought him in and he was a disaster. So
Speaker 2: we know that a saintly man may not be the
Speaker 2: best leader of the church. But if it's clear that
Speaker 2: he comes in as the leader but gets around him
Speaker 2: a team of administrators and people who are familiar with
Speaker 2: the way that the internal machinations of the church play out,
Speaker 2: I think he.
Speaker 3: Could be a formidable pope.
Speaker 2: And it's not the case that the pope has to
Speaker 2: run everything he could. If he's wise, and he certainly is,
Speaker 2: he will find people who will help him.
Speaker 1: Father Jerry, are you hearing him talked about in town?
Speaker 1: People they love him, they think he was a great
Speaker 1: is a great man, and a great witness to the faith.
Speaker 1: But I haven't heard him talked about as a candidate. No.
Speaker 4: And he's an internet phenomenon because he's so well known.
Speaker 4: But he is seventy nine years old, and yeah, that's
Speaker 4: taken into consideration.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's move on to Cardinal William Ike.
Speaker 1: He's the Archbishop of Utrech in the Netherlands, seventy one
Speaker 1: year old medical doctor with a moral theology and philosophy
Speaker 1: degree from the Angelicum here in Rome. Bob, He's fought
Speaker 1: the secularism in the Netherlands. He's regarded as fiercely pro life.
Speaker 1: Orthodox talk about his defensive marriage and the opposition to
Speaker 1: same sex blessings. Whoever wants to.
Speaker 2: Take that, Yeah, well, I mean you put your finger
Speaker 2: on the important thing about him. I mean, he's a
Speaker 2: man who is a doctor before he had got his
Speaker 2: religious vocation, and he's not going to be hoodwinked by
Speaker 2: a lot of things that are said in public that
Speaker 2: seem to be progressive but in fact are very anti live,
Speaker 2: anti human.
Speaker 3: Even the way that I would put it.
Speaker 2: And to come out of the country that he does
Speaker 2: in New attracting and to be a strong advocate for
Speaker 2: marriage and the family. I think this is something that
Speaker 2: Europe really really needs to hear, because it's not only
Speaker 2: that Europe has this immigration problem the way we do
Speaker 2: to a certain extent in North America. It also is
Speaker 2: falling off the demographic cliff and if there aren't children
Speaker 2: born in Europe, Europe will simply will It'll disappear, It'll
Speaker 2: float away. So he's a guy that will come at
Speaker 2: this with both the credibility of knowing some science, probably
Speaker 2: knowing some social science, but also having a very very
Speaker 2: moral and theological formation father.
Speaker 1: There was a quote I read of his and he said,
Speaker 1: the first secret about Hell. It made me think of you.
Speaker 1: He said, the first secret about Hell. Well, I think
Speaker 1: it's really a secret that remains highly relevant for our time.
Speaker 1: That's our duty to make sure that we are in
Speaker 1: charge of announcing the Catholic faith, that people don't end
Speaker 1: up in Hell, and to warn them about it. And
Speaker 1: he goes on and on. He also did a total
Speaker 1: financial overhaul in his troubled diocese when he came in.
Speaker 1: Does that help his candidacy? Father? Though he did have
Speaker 1: to close two thirds of the churches there. I mean
Speaker 1: there was low attendance and no priests.
Speaker 4: Well, well help his candidacy if people know about it.
Speaker 4: And this is one of the big issues. You know,
Speaker 4: how each cardinal has run their own diocese is largely unknown,
Speaker 4: I think to many of the cardinals because they don't meet,
Speaker 4: they don't talk. And then you have newcomers from small
Speaker 4: dioceses in far away places that you know, probably never
Speaker 4: heard of the Diocese of Uhtrek to the extent of
Speaker 4: knowing what's going on there.
Speaker 1: They know it's a city and an.
Speaker 4: Important historical place. But this is part of what's going
Speaker 4: on right now? All these meetings get to know, and
Speaker 4: then you have to trust cardinals who do know. So
Speaker 4: it's sort of like, you know, the new students come
Speaker 4: into the university and the professor takes him under the
Speaker 4: wings and says, okay, you know, this is what you
Speaker 4: need to know to be a successful student.
Speaker 3: Here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to move on to a cardinal, Malcolm
Speaker 1: Ranjith of Sri Lanka. I've been hearing his name whispered
Speaker 1: here and there. He's a seventy seven year old studied
Speaker 1: in Rome and Jerusalem. Served as Secretary of the Congregation
Speaker 1: for the Evangelization of Peoples under John Paul the second
Speaker 1: that he was a papal nuncio, a diplomat. He was
Speaker 1: secretary at the Congregation for Divine Worship. I was kind
Speaker 1: of impressed by the breadth of his experience. It's kind
Speaker 1: of remarkable, you know, because then he went back, you know,
Speaker 1: he goes back to his neighbor, Sri Lanka. He also
Speaker 1: speaks ten languages. Father, could Ranja be a surprise candidate?
Speaker 4: He certainly could. He's a very qualified manners you've just
Speaker 4: laid out, and he's served both in the Roman Curia,
Speaker 4: and as a diocesan bishop, he's had experience dealing with
Speaker 4: the government there. As you may remember, it's a terrorist
Speaker 4: attack at Easter time about six years ago, killed people
Speaker 4: at different places and churches. So yeah, I know my
Speaker 4: friends of mine are very impressed with him. I've never
Speaker 4: had the pleasure of meeting him, but I certainly from
Speaker 4: what I know, he's a good man and he would
Speaker 4: make a good pope.
Speaker 1: Bob. He has said the Eucharist makes the church. He
Speaker 1: brought back altar rails just last year, he forbid altar
Speaker 1: girls in his in the parishes of his diocese. He
Speaker 1: is all in on the reform of the reform. Does
Speaker 1: that endear him to this college or alienate him?
Speaker 2: Well, I think we'll see in the voting Raymond, where
Speaker 2: you know, we're all kind of trying to predict their
Speaker 2: future here. One of the things that struck me about him,
Speaker 2: and I've been hearing this from different people, is that
Speaker 2: we've been saying that Paroline is the one who has
Speaker 2: most been in contact with the various cardinals around the world,
Speaker 2: And of course that's true, but if there is a
Speaker 2: second figure who's had a lot of contact for the
Speaker 2: reasons that father just mentioned that he's occupied so many
Speaker 2: different offices, He's done so many different things. He speaks
Speaker 2: ten different languages, including Hebrew, which I think is an
Speaker 2: amazing thing, and then of course several a couple at
Speaker 2: least a couple of East Asian languages as well. If
Speaker 2: you're looking for a global pope, for somebody who can
Speaker 2: really reach out to the peripheries, I think he fits
Speaker 2: the bill much better even than Parolin. He embodies it
Speaker 2: and at the same time he seems to embody a
Speaker 2: deep Orthodoxy in his understanding of the faith.
Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about Cardinal Pierre Baptista Pizza Bala,
Speaker 1: the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem. He's just sixty years old,
Speaker 1: which could hurt his candidacy. Twelve years he was the
Speaker 1: custus of the Holy Land, that's the Franciscans who sort
Speaker 1: of have custody of all of those shrines the Holy Site.
Speaker 1: He offered his life recently for the Israeli hostages take
Speaker 1: and prisoner by Hamas. How he has very close relations,
Speaker 1: which is a tough order, with both the Israelis and
Speaker 1: the Palestinians. Born in northern Italy, however, and he's a
Speaker 1: biblical scholar. He's got He's very fastidious. I know this
Speaker 1: personally about catechists actually practicing and believing the faith that
Speaker 1: they're passing on to the young people in his diocese.
Speaker 1: What are his chances, especially as an Italian cardinal and
Speaker 1: offering his life for those hostages.
Speaker 4: Father, I think he's an excellent chance of being elected.
Speaker 4: I think he's an attractive candidate for the reasons that
Speaker 4: you said.
Speaker 3: The fact is that we would.
Speaker 4: His first name is Pierre, which is an abbreviation of
Speaker 4: Pietro so Peter Peter baptisto John the Baptist Peter Peter
Speaker 4: from Jerusalem becoming the successor Peter in Rome. It has
Speaker 4: a good ring to it, and no, I think he's
Speaker 4: got it. He carries himself with the dignity and the uh,
Speaker 4: you know, self assertiveness that's required hired to be a
Speaker 4: Catholic bishop and a very troubled region. So I think
Speaker 4: he would be a good match for the challenges that
Speaker 4: the Roman Curia faces.
Speaker 1: I mean the running out of money.
Speaker 4: They've had, you know, kind of a reorganization which has
Speaker 4: really caused some disorganizations. So there are a lot of
Speaker 4: things needing to be done. I think he'd be a
Speaker 4: man at age sixty with the energy and the knowledge
Speaker 4: to do it.
Speaker 1: Now. I heard his name being whispered about by different
Speaker 1: groups of people, not only you know, traditional cardinals, but
Speaker 1: those who are new to this game and just arrived. Bob,
Speaker 1: I see Pitzebola as a compromise candidate. I mean, he's
Speaker 1: dealt with eighteen different religious congregations in the Holy Land
Speaker 1: who are very vocal. But the most interesting thing that
Speaker 1: I don't think gets enough attention. And I know that
Speaker 1: he and I served on a board for twenty five
Speaker 1: years together, so I've known him a long time. He
Speaker 1: brought financial solvency to a university in the Holy Land
Speaker 1: that had been bleeding money, and he's been in the
Speaker 1: Holy Land for thirty five years. I'm also told the
Speaker 1: Gaza experience changed him a great deal deep into his faith.
Speaker 1: But he's very rooted in the Gospel and a man
Speaker 1: of prayer.
Speaker 2: Your thoughts, You know, I just wrote a book about
Speaker 2: the twenty first century martyrs, and I have a couple
Speaker 2: of stories about him in that book.
Speaker 3: One of the.
Speaker 2: Things that he said when he first got to the
Speaker 2: Holy Land, and I think when he took over as
Speaker 2: custos for the Franciscans. He was told by the Israelis
Speaker 2: that people would spit on him if he wore a
Speaker 2: cassock as he walked around Jerusalem, and instead of saying, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: I won't wear a Kazakh, he said, no, you know,
Speaker 2: we're not going to accept that. And when sort of
Speaker 2: extreme Zionists have actually attacked Catholic monasteries and whatnot in
Speaker 2: the Holy Land, he's been forceful in protecting our people
Speaker 2: as much as he's been an advocate for the Palestinians
Speaker 2: in Gaza. So look, he's a It would be a
Speaker 2: surprise candidacy for an Italian coming from Jerusalem to kind
Speaker 2: of catch fire. But at this moment, when we don't
Speaker 2: really have I think we can say that, especially if
Speaker 2: things go beyond the first day or two in the voting,
Speaker 2: I think that all bets are off, and he's come
Speaker 2: off so beautifully in that situation in the Middle East,
Speaker 2: in Israel and Palestine. I think everyone globally looks at
Speaker 2: him as a man of courage who offered his own
Speaker 2: body to for those children who were being.
Speaker 3: Held by Hamas.
Speaker 2: You don't often hear of a thing like that. Happening,
Speaker 2: and I think that's made him a global figure.
Speaker 1: He also has a reverence for Pope Urban, who established
Speaker 1: the feast of Corpus CHRISTI and Father Jerry and I
Speaker 1: were with Father Roger Landry, and he reminded us the
Speaker 1: last patriarch of Jerusalem who was made pope in twelve
Speaker 1: sixty one was Pope Urban the fourth. So it's very
Speaker 1: interesting that you know this that connection, So we'll see.
Speaker 1: He also he offers the Mass in Hebrew, and I'm
Speaker 1: told by some of the friars there are Jewish rabbis
Speaker 1: who come and sit in the back and listen to
Speaker 1: him because his Hebrew is so great. So we'll see
Speaker 1: if that has any linkage. He believes Jerusalem is the
Speaker 1: same the Church. It would be interesting if he sat
Speaker 1: at the center of the church in Rome as well.
Speaker 1: What about an American As we wrap up, we keep
Speaker 1: hearing rumblings of Dolan. Robert Prevost, who's a sixty nine
Speaker 1: year old Chicago native, served as an Augustinian in Peru
Speaker 1: and then Chicago and back again. In twenty twenty two,
Speaker 1: there was a case of two priest molesting girls there
Speaker 1: in Peru. Critics say he failed to properly investigate those cases,
Speaker 1: and the diocese paid the girls off. Follow your thoughts
Speaker 1: on his candidacy, Robert Prevost.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's now the prefect of the Dicastery for naming Bishops,
Speaker 4: so he hasn't give an important role by Pope Francis. Obviously,
Speaker 4: Poe Francis had a lot of confidence in him. I
Speaker 4: think he would represent a continuity candidate with Pope Francis,
Speaker 4: so it's possible. But I'm as even though I love
Speaker 4: my own country in the United States, citizen and American
Speaker 4: one hundred percent, I'm doubtful that in our day and age,
Speaker 4: an American who good elected pope.
Speaker 3: You know, I just don't think.
Speaker 4: People are ready for us to be the top of
Speaker 4: the list on the church, Bob.
Speaker 1: He also appointed a lot of that dicaster of bishops
Speaker 1: he was in charge of, appointed a lot of progressive
Speaker 1: bishops and promoted them over the last few years.
Speaker 2: Does that hurt him, Well, it will hurt him a
Speaker 2: lot with people who didn't like that sort of thing,
Speaker 2: of course. But the wild card in this is that
Speaker 2: in the position that he was as the head of
Speaker 2: that Dicastria for naming Bishops, he has a lot of
Speaker 2: contact with people who are naming future leaders in the church.
Speaker 2: So how that will play out, I don't know, But
Speaker 2: he doesn't seem to me to be.
Speaker 3: A strong candidate.
Speaker 2: And that scandal that you talked about, it's about the
Speaker 2: only thing that I think people generally have heard about him,
Speaker 2: and for me, I think that that will probably sink him.
Speaker 1: Father, Jerry, the most surprising thing you've heard today? And
Speaker 1: then I'll go to Bob.
Speaker 4: Well, I guess you know, I've heard more good things
Speaker 4: about Carl Pitzavalla that I didn't know, and that's really
Speaker 4: inspiring because I kind of think he might walk out
Speaker 4: on that loajo as our new pope.
Speaker 1: Bob, the most surprising thing you've heard over the last
Speaker 1: few days.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, we've talked a lot about how the
Speaker 2: cardinals don't know one another.
Speaker 3: But the more and.
Speaker 2: More we dig into these people, they're remarkable. Many of
Speaker 2: them have had amazing achievements. It's a church spread all
Speaker 2: over the world, and maybe it isn't quite the cardinal
Speaker 2: the college of Cardinals that we've had in the past.
Speaker 3: But I'm impressed by these guys.
Speaker 2: And so there are a number of different people, some
Speaker 2: obviously I prefer over others, but we could get a
Speaker 2: very very interesting new pope out of this group.
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Speaker 1: There at Taylorfogne dot com. As the cardinals set about
Speaker 1: the business of selecting the new pope, where is the
Speaker 1: church now? Every pope leaves unfinished business. Let's talk for
Speaker 1: a moment, Jens, I mean John Paul was an apostle
Speaker 1: who traveled the whole world. He wasn't much of an administrator.
Speaker 1: How will Francis's papacy, his record shape the man we're
Speaker 1: about to watch be elected Pope? Bob will start with you.
Speaker 2: Well, I hope it would, at least at the beginning,
Speaker 2: cause the cardinals who are about to elect this man
Speaker 2: to reflect very carefully about their most recent choice. Because
Speaker 2: we obviously, with the Pope Benedict, we got a theologian,
Speaker 2: I mean a world class theologian.
Speaker 3: Who will be read for centuries.
Speaker 2: With Francis, what the cardinals thought they were getting was
Speaker 2: a reformer. That was the term that was often used
Speaker 2: about it, and in fact, the first biography by Austin
Speaker 2: Ivory was called The Great Reformer. Yeah, well, we still
Speaker 2: have with us a lot of unfinished business and financial matters,
Speaker 2: the matters of sexual abuse and order within the church.
Speaker 2: So if you think about what the next leader of
Speaker 2: the church ought to be, of course he ought to
Speaker 2: be a spiritual man, a follower, a close follower of
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, but somebody who can carry out those other
Speaker 2: functions that are sort of governing functions. They're not just
Speaker 2: theological and spiritual matters. The church is badly in need
Speaker 2: of a rudder right now, and it needs one that
Speaker 2: is conceptual, but I think it's one that's also practical.
Speaker 1: Father Bob touched on it. I remember those years ago
Speaker 1: when twelve years ago, when Pope Francis was elected, and
Speaker 1: even Cardinal George pell and others said, this is going
Speaker 1: to be a financial reformer. He'll bring an end to
Speaker 1: the sexual abuse in the church, to reform the couria,
Speaker 1: the bureaucracy of the government. Here has he achieved those things?
Speaker 1: Let's start there.
Speaker 4: He did some things to effect change, but in the
Speaker 4: end nothing really happened in terms of change and improvement.
Speaker 4: He appointed Cardinal Pell to be in charge of the
Speaker 4: Secretariat of the Economy as it's called. It's a new
Speaker 4: department in the Vatican, and they on earthed and found
Speaker 4: many assets money that was being held by individual departments
Speaker 4: in the Vatican, which is the way they used to
Speaker 4: do it. Cardinal Pell wanted to centralize everything. He wanted
Speaker 4: to centralize investments so that they could make money on this.
Speaker 4: He also wanted to reform how Vatican assets such as
Speaker 4: rental properties were dealt with, and stepped on a lot
Speaker 4: of toes and the Pope didn't back Pell, so that
Speaker 4: all went to the wayside. Sex abuse. The Pope said
Speaker 4: zero tolerance, but then notoriously tolerated Bishops Anketta, who was
Speaker 4: convicted by an Argentine court of abusing seminary. He's protected
Speaker 4: Father Rupnik, who was thrown out of the Jesuits, and
Speaker 4: he's been accused by many many nuns of having committed
Speaker 4: sex abuse in his capacity as their spiritual director. So
Speaker 4: there are lots of contradictions. He did issue a reform
Speaker 4: of the Roman curia, but in my opinion, made it
Speaker 4: more bureaucratic and less gospel or reflective. So I think
Speaker 4: it's an unfinished agenda, but it remains very much an
Speaker 4: agenda needing to be done.
Speaker 1: One of the things that again this episode sort of
Speaker 1: focused on the factors that will shape the choice of
Speaker 1: the next pope. How much of that do you think
Speaker 1: will factor in the finances, the sex abuse, and the bureaucracy.
Speaker 1: That is really well, our colleague get pent and told
Speaker 1: us today he ran into somebody's Vatican employee. He said,
Speaker 1: how do you feel with Pope France has gone? And
Speaker 1: the man told him free, I feel free. That tells
Speaker 1: us a lot, Bob. How much will all that play
Speaker 1: in the minds of these electors.
Speaker 2: Well, we could hope that it will play a lot
Speaker 2: in their minds, But as we've said in other places
Speaker 2: during the course of covering this papacy, it's not clear
Speaker 2: that the cardinals who are going to have to make
Speaker 2: the decision or as aware of the challenges facing the
Speaker 2: church as say people like us are follow it on
Speaker 2: a regular basis. Now, they can't help but be aware
Speaker 2: of the financial problem because that's been announced that you know,
Speaker 2: it has a huge, huge deficit in terms of the
Speaker 2: retirement funds for the Vatican employees. The Peters pencils is
Speaker 2: very much down. You can see that they're trying to
Speaker 2: use every possibility during this jubilee year of collecting six
Speaker 2: zeros here, seven euros there, because it's just the operating
Speaker 2: fund is also very far down.
Speaker 1: And they were all briefed on this the other day
Speaker 1: in their private meeting. We should tell people.
Speaker 2: Now, you know, I think that you know, a reasonably
Speaker 2: responsible human being is going to take that very seriously.
Speaker 2: Because that the Vatican is not able to operate, all
Speaker 2: the other things start to be put in jeopardy.
Speaker 3: The business with the cleaning.
Speaker 2: Up of the sexual matters.
Speaker 3: I don't know how much they know about that.
Speaker 2: Maybe they think that the documents themselves have resolved this,
Speaker 2: but there's a lot to be done on a practical nature.
Speaker 2: As I said earlier, that the next pope is really
Speaker 2: going to have to implement a zero tolerance. We heard
Speaker 2: a lot about zero tolerance, but in fact there are
Speaker 2: special deals. There's kind of what people call in the
Speaker 2: secular world two tiered policing. People at the lower level
Speaker 2: are slapped with fines and with penalties, and then people
Speaker 2: like Rupnik, who's a famous artist, Father Marco Rupnik goes
Speaker 2: on as merry way. So look, there's much to be
Speaker 2: done here, and let's hope that these people look very
Speaker 2: very closely at those questions.
Speaker 1: Father, your thoughts on this? How large will these issues
Speaker 1: loom in the minds of these cardinals? What we're hearing
Speaker 1: this week? You know, we spoke to cardinal, we spoke
Speaker 1: to others. There seems to be a sentimentality almost in
Speaker 1: these in these meetings where they keep harkening back to
Speaker 1: some imagined, synotal fantasy land that Pope Frances envisioned or
Speaker 1: was about to implement. Speak to all of that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I think the Bob is right. These things
Speaker 4: are important, and they would seem to indicate we need
Speaker 4: a pope who has some managerial experience, but even more
Speaker 4: than that, who has a backbone and is able to
Speaker 4: make decisions. We know, I know a lot of smart
Speaker 4: people who can analyze a problem, but if you told
Speaker 4: them time to solve it, they would you run out
Speaker 4: of the room and they say, that's not my job.
Speaker 4: I'm here just to observe. Now we need somebody who's
Speaker 4: not an observer on what's happening in the Vatican. In
Speaker 4: the Church and the other hand, the job description of
Speaker 4: the pope is not primarily management. It's primarily preaching the
Speaker 4: Gospel and guiding the flock. So you know, guiding the
Speaker 4: flock means governing. It means using the pastoral staff to
Speaker 4: guide the flock to go to this pasture and avoid
Speaker 4: that rocky ground. So that means teaching the truth and
Speaker 4: enforcing the doctrinal limitations in the church. You know, part
Speaker 4: of the problem and this pontificate is that people who
Speaker 4: contradicted the teaching of the Church were put forward. The
Speaker 4: way you destroy, for instance, a naval ship has not
Speaker 4: simply just put an exo set missile through the side
Speaker 4: of it. It's to have the crew abandon ship by
Speaker 4: not knowing what their jobs are, not wanting to do them.
Speaker 4: And I think the same thing applies in the church.
Speaker 4: We have to reinstall confidence in the Church's mission.
Speaker 1: Well look in the coming days. And part of the
Speaker 1: reason I wanted to do this series is because I
Speaker 1: want people to have a realistic vision of what's actually
Speaker 1: happening here in Rome and many people think, well, it's
Speaker 1: the conclave, that's when everything happens. They go into the
Speaker 1: Cystine Chapel, they're locked away, and there'll be time for that.
Speaker 1: But we know the real business of this conclave choosing
Speaker 1: a pope, has already begun, and that's during these general
Speaker 1: Congregation meetings, when these cardinals come together one hundred and
Speaker 1: thirty three the electors gathered here. Bob speak to how
Speaker 1: well these men know each other, and how their ignorance
Speaker 1: of one another, as well as their ignorance of the
Speaker 1: dioceses that these men have control over or dominion over,
Speaker 1: how that will influence the ultimate selection here.
Speaker 2: You know a lot of people are worried that because
Speaker 2: Pope Francis appointed so many of the electors, that it's
Speaker 2: going to be following directly in his line. And of
Speaker 2: course some other people that he appointed are very very
Speaker 2: close to what he tried to do with his papacy.
Speaker 2: The other is the ones that we talk about coming
Speaker 2: from the peripheries. They're much more of a wild card.
Speaker 2: If you're from you're a cardinal in Mongolia, where there
Speaker 2: are five thousand Catholics, and you just got appointed because
Speaker 2: the Holy Father happened to see you last week and
Speaker 2: he liked here, or you're from Tongar, you're from one
Speaker 2: of these other small countries. That really changes things in
Speaker 2: the way that you don't really know the other people.
Speaker 2: You haven't been involved in working at the level with
Speaker 2: other cardinals on stuff within the church or maybe international
Speaker 2: affairs or political matters. So they've got to get to
Speaker 2: know one another in these basically seven days, ten days,
Speaker 2: twig whatever it is between now and the time they
Speaker 2: have to start voting. And that's really not the best
Speaker 2: circumstances in which to get to know somebody, because everybody
Speaker 2: is sort of eyeing one another. It's like a pressure cooker.
Speaker 2: I mean, the spirit involves itself in these decisions, but
Speaker 2: you really very quickly have to kind of get a
Speaker 2: sense of who it is around me, who looks popular,
Speaker 2: and you know what kind of things are they pushing?
Speaker 2: You know, can I rely on them to deliver on
Speaker 2: the things that they're saying that they're going to do.
Speaker 2: To do this in just a matter of a few
Speaker 2: days or even a week or so, it's not the
Speaker 2: best circumstances, but let's just hope that the process goes
Speaker 2: as well as it possibly can, given what it's been
Speaker 2: built up to over the last dozen years.
Speaker 1: And father, I'll ask you to expand on that. And
Speaker 1: over the last few years, really decades, we've seen these conclicts.
Speaker 1: The business really happens in small dinners, gatherings in all
Speaker 1: the little borgos around the Vatican and all over Rome,
Speaker 1: where these cardinals meet each other around the table or
Speaker 1: in an intimate setting, and we're talking five or six
Speaker 1: of them, and that's where you really get an exchange
Speaker 1: of ideas and alliances start to shift. Speak to that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, everybody in life knows work is important,
Speaker 4: but socializing is very important, you know what I mean?
Speaker 4: And noother it's one thing that's going to the boss's
Speaker 4: office and the boss that here your task, go away,
Speaker 4: and then go to the lunch room or the water
Speaker 4: cool and say, well, how does this place operate? And
Speaker 4: what am I supposed to do? And I think a
Speaker 4: lot of the college of cardinals, you know, Number one,
Speaker 4: they saw the Pope rarely because they were rarely called
Speaker 4: to Rome. And then secondly they then don't know each
Speaker 4: other because the Pope did not like having these general
Speaker 4: meetings of cardinals. And why not, Well, the reason was
Speaker 4: that they had one at the beginning of the pontific
Speaker 4: and in which some of the cardinals told the Pope
Speaker 4: they didn't agree with the pope so like is so
Speaker 4: you know it really the Pope had the idea. Is
Speaker 4: sad to say that. You know, it's like meeting the
Speaker 4: Queen of England. You're there to listen, not to talk
Speaker 4: unless the queen asked you to talk. And I think
Speaker 4: with the Pope he wanted to kind of go in
Speaker 4: a direction. The issue back then was communion for divorce
Speaker 4: and remarried, and there were contradictions by other cardinals, which
Speaker 4: I think is healthy and good. And you know, by
Speaker 4: the way Benedict and johnpoll the second had a much
Speaker 4: more open style of these cardinal meetings, but no Bob.
Speaker 4: Back to Bob's point, this is where things are going
Speaker 4: to happen, where people are going to listen to each
Speaker 4: other for the first time and kind of judge a man.
Speaker 4: The old system had had a lot of virtues. The
Speaker 4: people who became cardinals the old system, with those who
Speaker 4: worked in the Roman curia for a long time, or
Speaker 4: those who rose to become archbishops of big diocese, you
Speaker 4: occasionally had nun CEOs and ambassadors, but they were also
Speaker 4: kind of Roman hands. So he had the people whose
Speaker 4: talents were visible because they were the archery of New York, Paris,
Speaker 4: La Berlin, Madrid and Lisbon. And then you had people
Speaker 4: who knew how the Vatican work. Now, the Vatican basically
Speaker 4: has been kind of like in a stutter step motion,
Speaker 4: you know, go here one day, go there the next.
Speaker 4: The Archbishop of Paris won't be here because he's not
Speaker 4: a cardinal, the Archbision of Los Angeles won't be here
Speaker 4: because he's not a card and same with Baltimore. So
Speaker 4: we deal with the people that we have, and there
Speaker 4: are good men there, but you know, getting to know
Speaker 4: them is going.
Speaker 3: To be tough.
Speaker 4: I hope there's a lot of that socializing time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's lean into that for a minute, Bob.
Speaker 1: Do you think Cardinal Paroline, the Secretary of State, has
Speaker 1: emerged as one of the candidates. You saw him almost
Speaker 1: pushing his own candidacy the other day. He gave a homily.
Speaker 1: He wore Pup Francis's miter that he had worn at
Speaker 1: a youth gathering and then tried to you know, inspire
Speaker 1: and I think connect with the young people. It didn't
Speaker 1: go so well. But is that a strike against him
Speaker 1: that he worked in the Vatican so long or do
Speaker 1: you think these men from the peripheries, from the outer banks,
Speaker 1: if you will, of the church, they're looking for somebody
Speaker 1: who knows the score and can run things here in Rome.
Speaker 2: Well, I've been living in Washington, d C. For the
Speaker 2: last thirty years, so if I may use a Washington term,
Speaker 2: some may fear a swamp creature. There's the problem of
Speaker 2: people who have gone native and they're really part of
Speaker 2: a bureaucracy rather than an evangelizing church that looks outside.
Speaker 2: And I think sometimes that's overplayed, although there certainly are
Speaker 2: some monseignori who swam around.
Speaker 3: Here in.
Speaker 1: Rome.
Speaker 2: Look, it goes both ways, I suppose, as we were
Speaker 2: saying earlier, basically the role of a bishop or of
Speaker 2: a pope is to teach number one.
Speaker 3: To sanctify and to cover.
Speaker 2: And you know, we're all looking for that strange unicorn
Speaker 2: figure who's going to have all those capabilities in excess.
Speaker 1: By Cardinal Dolan saying we want John Pohl, we want
Speaker 1: Benedict's rigor, and we want Pope Francis's heart, Well, those
Speaker 1: are three different people. It's kind of a hard mix.
Speaker 2: Just before he died, Cardinal pell and I were having
Speaker 2: lunch and I said to him, you know, you've been
Speaker 2: very close to the Holy Father. Is he just being
Speaker 2: deceived on some of these matters by the people around him?
Speaker 2: And he said to me, oh, Robert, he said, he
Speaker 2: has been a bishop and an archbishop and now a
Speaker 2: cardinal and a pope for many years, and so he
Speaker 2: ought to be aware that people around him may try
Speaker 2: to do certain things.
Speaker 3: Maybe they do, and.
Speaker 2: They fool him sometimes, but that's certainly that kind of
Speaker 2: experience is something you can't entirely dispense with. A person
Speaker 2: who's had to run a large organization, could be a
Speaker 2: religious order, it might be some a monastery or something.
Speaker 3: But I think that that's.
Speaker 2: An important feature that I myself am going to be
Speaker 2: looking out.
Speaker 1: For a people person so who and that doesn't mean
Speaker 1: going out to the strangers, but working with people in
Speaker 1: an organization in harmony. That is a big and important
Speaker 1: task for any pope because you drop into this bureaucracy
Speaker 1: here and you almost have to turn it to your
Speaker 1: own designs. The first rule of thumb, and we should
Speaker 1: I say this for everybody watching. The first rule of
Speaker 1: thumb of interpreting these conclaves and the lead up to them.
Speaker 1: This is a battle of narratives. Right now, you heard
Speaker 1: Cardinal Giovanni Battista Ray at the funeral of the Pope
Speaker 1: try to urge for the continuation of Francis's agenda. The
Speaker 1: previous pope always has a great influence, is a major
Speaker 1: factor on whoever the next man will be, usually because
Speaker 1: the cardinals want to change course from what was, or
Speaker 1: adjust or refine, but inevitably what the pope prior shapes
Speaker 1: the pope to come. And the media has depicted Francis
Speaker 1: as the people's Pope. It reminds me of Cardinal Walter
Speaker 1: Asper who described Francis's theology as the people's theology. So
Speaker 1: the problem is at times that theology ignored Catholic theology. Father,
Speaker 1: tell me about the elements of doctrine, How doctrine and
Speaker 1: style will shape the cardinal's decisions here and how Francis's
Speaker 1: example influences their votes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, doctrine is the basis of unity in the church,
Speaker 4: because doctrine means teaching. Teaching leads to belief. So what
Speaker 4: do we believe in in common. Not every Catholic Maths
Speaker 4: and Sunday you preach, everybody prays out loud the creed,
Speaker 4: they say it all together. The reason is that's what
Speaker 4: unites us in faith. The content of doctrine is what
Speaker 4: things do we accept as true and what things do
Speaker 4: we reject as false? Though that's very important because if
Speaker 4: an organization doesn't have a clear notion of what it
Speaker 4: believes in, then it's a drift and sad to say.
Speaker 4: In the last Pontificate, things that we took for granted
Speaker 4: that had been taught directly by Jump all the Second
Speaker 4: and Benedict were contradicted and ignored and even overturned. And
Speaker 4: they were sexuality issues and the death penalty or all
Speaker 4: religions sent to us by God. These questions had been answered,
Speaker 4: but they were reopened and the new answer wasn't good.
Speaker 4: So we have to have a pope was willing to
Speaker 4: say the unity of faith is not the kumbay. Everybody's
Speaker 4: in the room smiling at each other, you know, one
Speaker 4: of the tropes of the pontagic. Let's all walk together.
Speaker 4: So the big question is, well, where are we going
Speaker 4: and what are we supposed to talk about on.
Speaker 1: The way you know, and the Apostles.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then also who gets in line, who's able
Speaker 4: to walk, and who's pushed aside and said no, you're
Speaker 4: not on the path with us. And the real image
Speaker 4: of the church is Jesus on the mount giving the
Speaker 4: beatitude sermon. You know, everybody was listening. Jesus was the center,
Speaker 4: and we took it in and then tried to apply it.
Speaker 4: I think the next pope is going to hopefully embrace
Speaker 4: that role and say before I say I want everybody
Speaker 4: to love each other, I have to say I want
Speaker 4: everybody to believe that they have to love each other,
Speaker 4: and that love is not auto created by men men,
Speaker 4: it's given to what the rules come from God. In
Speaker 4: other words, what does love really mean living God's law?
Speaker 1: Well, for those non Catholics looking, and we'll get into
Speaker 1: more of this and subsequent episodes, but the papacy, the
Speaker 1: pope is nothing more than the successor of Saint Peter,
Speaker 1: that first Apostle. So it's an amazing thing to watch
Speaker 1: happen because like the Apostles chose someone to fill Judas's
Speaker 1: spot among the twelve, so through time they've come together
Speaker 1: and chosen someone to fill Peter spot and that continuous,
Speaker 1: unbroken chain of two thousand plus years. I mean, Bob,
Speaker 1: you know, we get into the weeds so deep on
Speaker 1: this we sometimes forget the grandeur of an importance of
Speaker 1: what this is. This is the vicar of Christ, the
Speaker 1: first Apostle and his successor. I mean, that's what he's
Speaker 1: charged with. Now, there have been spectacular flameouts, Borgier popes
Speaker 1: and horrible nightmares, but they didn't change doctrine. Pope Francis
Speaker 1: attempted to shift the doctrine around a bit, or at
Speaker 1: least the practice of it. I'll let you have the floor.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: At the same time, though, I would encourage people who
Speaker 2: are watching or listening not to get to apocalyptic about this.
Speaker 2: I never tire of quoting a line from the American
Speaker 2: modernist poet Ezra Pound, who said that any institution that
Speaker 2: could survive the picturesqueness of the Borges has a certain
Speaker 2: native resilience. And our Lord and our Lord told us
Speaker 2: that the gates of Hell.
Speaker 3: Shall not prevail against the Church.
Speaker 2: So look, you know, I've got children and grandchildren, so
Speaker 2: I'm immediately concerned about the next two or three generations,
Speaker 2: and I pray to God that they don't have to
Speaker 2: live with the church that's weekend or has lost its way,
Speaker 2: or I mean, we all need the church to be
Speaker 2: the church. But at the same time, I think we
Speaker 2: help a great deal if we maintain that confidence in
Speaker 2: ourselves that ultimately the Lord is in charge. We men
Speaker 2: try to mess up everything, including the Church, but he's
Speaker 2: in charge, and he knows that he tried to redeem
Speaker 2: us on the cross, and he has put in motions
Speaker 2: something that you rightly say has lasted over two thousand years,
Speaker 2: which in human terms is almost a miracle in itself.
Speaker 2: So we also worry over the next few days, next
Speaker 2: few weeks, perhaps as this election goes forward, but with
Speaker 2: a certain confidence in the Lord.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, Pope Benedict said famously I posted it
Speaker 1: on social media recently, Father that the Holy Spirit doesn't
Speaker 1: select the pope. The Holy Spirit guides and inspires. The
Speaker 1: Holy Spirit's presence is a confidence in the fact that
Speaker 1: they can't mess it up. That's what basically he's said,
Speaker 1: And I think there's a lot of wisdom there. People
Speaker 1: think the Holy Spirit comes down like a double on
Speaker 1: the heads of these one hundred and thirty plus men,
Speaker 1: and that their little machines that vote like the Holy
Speaker 1: Spirit not necessarily.
Speaker 4: No, the Catholic churche never taught that the Holy Spirit
Speaker 4: directly inspired the people who voted for the man who
Speaker 4: ends up being the next pope. What we say is
Speaker 4: that the cardinals elect the pope, and then you only
Speaker 4: become pope when you say I accept this election. So
Speaker 4: it's a free choice matter on both sides, the ones
Speaker 4: picking and the one accepting, so free choices. You know,
Speaker 4: God loves us so much he gave us free choice
Speaker 4: and free will. Now, of course, the quality of the
Speaker 4: candidates depends on who's in the College of Cardinals. They're
Speaker 4: all chosen by the pope. The quality of their deliberations
Speaker 4: is how much attention do they pay to what their
Speaker 4: job the job description of the pope is, And if
Speaker 4: they disagree on what the job description is, then you
Speaker 4: can have some problems. But you know, the secret role
Speaker 4: people praying for others comes forward in this type of activity.
Speaker 4: We need to pray for those cardinals.
Speaker 1: I want to talk about something it's kind of hard
Speaker 1: to talk about because I've just run into some people
Speaker 1: in recent days who reminded me of this, including a
Speaker 1: bishop who was recently script of his title, forced to
Speaker 1: resign frankly just days before the Pope went to the hospital.
Speaker 1: And this was a bishop who had done nothing wrong
Speaker 1: except he had huge numbers of seminarians. I'll just say
Speaker 1: it is Bishop Ray of France. He had huge number
Speaker 1: of seminarians, but they were traditionally minded, and he was
Speaker 1: a traditional bishop, and that attracted young men to the priesthood.
Speaker 1: And he was sort of punished for that, sidelined for it,
Speaker 1: and driven out of his post. There was an authoritarian
Speaker 1: streak in Pope Francis that he recognized when he was
Speaker 1: running the Jesuits. He said, you know, coming out of
Speaker 1: that experience, after crushing a lot of toasts, he said,
Speaker 1: I have an authoritarian you know, default that I have
Speaker 1: to be rid of. Well, it's apparent he never really
Speaker 1: got rid of it. Talk to me about that, Bob,
Speaker 1: and how that could be a sleeper factor here, because
Speaker 1: many of those men in the Roman Couria, even if
Speaker 1: they loved Pope Francis and agreed with him ideologically, they
Speaker 1: did suffer the whims his whimsical nature where he would
Speaker 1: flip on a dime and say no to something he
Speaker 1: just said yes to, and they were subjected to that
Speaker 1: sort of thing regularly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I remember very early on, I'm sure both
Speaker 2: of you do too, that it wasn't only a matter
Speaker 2: of people feeling if they were precarious because the kid
Speaker 2: get fired and many were for getting.
Speaker 3: Crosswires with the Pope.
Speaker 2: They also felt that they didn't know what they were
Speaker 2: supposed to do. And you know, that's one of the
Speaker 2: other consequences of unclear teaching or unclear governance, that if
Speaker 2: you step out too far in one direction, now you
Speaker 2: find out that the boss has actually changed what he
Speaker 2: hopes is going to happen.
Speaker 3: Now you look like you're opposing him.
Speaker 2: And these changes happened very very quickly, you know, And
Speaker 2: we can even look back toward the beginning. A lot
Speaker 2: of this has sort of become ancient history because of
Speaker 2: the image that the Holy Father had of being this
Speaker 2: sort of gentle grandfather type. You remember when the Sire
Speaker 2: Book came out the dictator Pope very early on in
Speaker 2: the pontificate, and that was sparked by the way that
Speaker 2: he man handled and I think that's not so too
Speaker 2: strong a term. The Knights of Malta, where Cardinal Burke
Speaker 2: was bounced out of there. Some other people came and
Speaker 2: left very quickly, and Malta was like an independently recognized
Speaker 2: almost nation. And that was that was an early sign
Speaker 2: and when we saw it develop that. On the one hand, yes,
Speaker 2: he had he presented this very gentle, caring, merciful character
Speaker 2: and a lot of people who attested to that. But
Speaker 2: he also had the iron fist and the velvet glove
Speaker 2: whenever it came to something you really wanted to get done.
Speaker 2: I won't speak to Canon long because we got the
Speaker 2: Canon lawyer here, but obviously a lot, a lot of
Speaker 2: that stuff just broke the bounds of what might be
Speaker 2: called legal within the caste.
Speaker 1: Father speak to that. I mean, not only the knights
Speaker 1: of Malta. Opus Day was opened up and rediscovered. He
Speaker 1: shut down conservative traditional Latin Rite communities because they were
Speaker 1: too devotional, an old school which he didn't care for.
Speaker 1: Cardinal Pell, who was only doing his bidding. Cardinal Pell
Speaker 1: was charged with finding all the hidden bank accounts and
Speaker 1: fixing the finances of the Vatican. When he did it
Speaker 1: and brought an accounting firm in, the Pope was convinced
Speaker 1: to fire that firm, and soon fire Pell. I mean
Speaker 1: it boggles the mind in many ways.
Speaker 4: Yeah, during the pontific If, Pope France has showed that
Speaker 4: he didn't consider canon law to be a very important
Speaker 4: part of his responsibility as pope, even though the church
Speaker 4: teaching is that pope is the lawgiver, so not only
Speaker 4: does he give the law, he also enforces it. And
Speaker 4: then you know this was not done. For instance, a
Speaker 4: couple of bishops were removed, one in Puerto Rico Daniel Fernandez,
Speaker 4: we had Bishop Strickland in the United States. They were
Speaker 4: removed without proper canonical process, and decrees enunciating why they
Speaker 4: were removed were never issued. Because in canon law, if
Speaker 4: you're accused of committing an offense that would merit some
Speaker 4: form of punishment, you have a right to self defense.
Speaker 4: So the right to self defense includes you're informed of
Speaker 4: the charge, you're giving the evidence behind the charge, and
Speaker 4: then you were able to respond to that evidence, produce
Speaker 4: your own evidence, and then there's a hearing so that
Speaker 4: the independent judgment can be rendered. And none of that happened.
Speaker 4: You know, Bishop Strickland was called in Nuncio's office and
Speaker 4: get told these are the reasons why you can't be
Speaker 4: bishop anymore, and he never heard anything more.
Speaker 1: You know, he just was out. But how cognizant do
Speaker 1: you think the cardinal's gathering just a few blocks from
Speaker 1: where we are, How cognizant are they of this? Why widespread,
Speaker 1: if you will, cleansing and firing of people that the
Speaker 1: Pope just disagreed with. But they've done nothing wrong. They
Speaker 1: were good men otherwise.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there's general knowledge that sutly affected Cardinal Burke.
Speaker 4: You know, he was denied his salary and his subsidized apartment,
Speaker 4: which are given to all cardinals because they work for
Speaker 4: the Church and the Roman Curia and the Holy See.
Speaker 4: They're aware of it. I think they were uncomfortable with it.
Speaker 4: So I hope and pray that in their deliberations they
Speaker 4: identified whatever man is a chosen and accepts the election
Speaker 4: cannot continue to act arbitrarily and ignore canon law because
Speaker 4: people think canon law just a bunch of rules to
Speaker 4: make people unhappy and restrict their freedom. No, a lot
Speaker 4: of other things that make people unhappy and restrict their freedom,
Speaker 4: you know, how about sin and vice. But law, it
Speaker 4: properly appride, allows everyone to have their rights respected. And
Speaker 4: if there's anything we need in the modern world to
Speaker 4: say people have rights. You can't say you have a
Speaker 4: right if it's not respected by the people in charge.
Speaker 1: Bob, what's another factor that you think we are unaware
Speaker 1: of or the public is unaware of, that will determine
Speaker 1: the outcome of this papal election. Is there anything else
Speaker 1: that you see?
Speaker 2: Well, we are warned in the Old Testament not to
Speaker 2: go after soothsayers and predictors in the future.
Speaker 3: Certainly be very careful of.
Speaker 1: I'm not asking you to do that factors.
Speaker 2: I'm not candidates, but you know, I think I've been
Speaker 2: saying this now for a couple of years, but I
Speaker 2: really do think that the cardinals from the peripheries could
Speaker 2: be a surprise. You know, we pretty much know what
Speaker 2: our American delegation is like. It's very much in the
Speaker 2: mccarack line and close to Pope France's. We know what
Speaker 2: the Africans are. Europeans are a little bit more of
Speaker 2: a mixed bag. But some of the people that are
Speaker 2: farther out from the traditions with which we're familiar, they
Speaker 2: might surprise us. I would have to think that if
Speaker 2: there's a place that the Holy Spirit is going to
Speaker 2: be working a little bit over time, it would have
Speaker 2: to be in one of that group of people because
Speaker 2: they're going to be learning. They're going to be our
Speaker 2: very stiff, steep learning curve, and I think they will
Speaker 2: want to play a role. They'll be looking at some
Speaker 2: of the figures that they've looked up to in the
Speaker 2: past as leaders. But I think they're going to begin
Speaker 2: to make their own own judgments and I'm hoping that
Speaker 2: the God of surprises is going to surprise us.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, Pope Francis father used to always say,
Speaker 1: well he told young people, and I think I would
Speaker 1: argue it's the it's the key to unlock his papacy.
Speaker 1: He told young people, go out and make a mess.
Speaker 1: God wants you to go out and make a mess,
Speaker 1: meaning don't you know, don't don't follow the age or
Speaker 1: the world, go do your own thing. But in fact
Speaker 1: and in his papacy, he too went out and made
Speaker 1: a mess. What impact will that have? Do you think
Speaker 1: the incoherence at times, the back and forth, you know,
Speaker 1: where he says we have to go out and bless
Speaker 1: gay unions. I want every priest to do this. Then
Speaker 1: the Africans come back. One of the voters here, Cardinal
Speaker 1: Abongo from Congo comes and says, we can't accept this
Speaker 1: on the continent of Africa. This is illegal. We'll never
Speaker 1: accept this. So he says, okay, fine, we'll give you
Speaker 1: a carve out, and they basically did a moral carve
Speaker 1: out for Africa. Well, why is Africa different from you know,
Speaker 1: Manhattan or Poughkeepsie. Speak to that and how that might
Speaker 1: shape these cardinals on the peripheric.
Speaker 4: No, this is part of the incoherence that we experienced
Speaker 4: and that we have to call a spade a space.
Speaker 4: It is incoherent to say Catholic teaching is X. Everybody
Speaker 4: has to follow X. Accept the people in Africa because
Speaker 4: they have a different notion where Catholic teaching is No.
Speaker 4: It was a political move designed not to cause problems,
Speaker 4: and of course they didn't want to withdraw this permission
Speaker 4: given now for blessing homosexual couples, so they said, okay, well,
Speaker 4: where people get upset.
Speaker 3: They don't have to do it. Well.
Speaker 4: Look, the point here, I think for the overall conclave
Speaker 4: discussion phase is do we want to admit we have
Speaker 4: a problem and then do something about it, or do
Speaker 4: we want to pretend everything was fine and we need
Speaker 4: someone who's going to continue with that line, because, of
Speaker 4: course Poe Francis did not admit that there was a
Speaker 4: problem with gay blessings or community for divorce and remarried.
Speaker 4: He thought the problem was the people who disagree with
Speaker 4: him on that. So much as we love the pope,
Speaker 4: that doesn't mean we agree with everything he does when
Speaker 4: it contradicts what his predecessors did. So the cardinals have
Speaker 4: to make a courageous decision. Will they say yes to
Speaker 4: the church's constant tradition and teaching, or will they say no?
Speaker 4: What got started in the Last Manivit has to continue.
Speaker 4: That's the really stark choice they face.
Speaker 1: That is it? That is really the choice right there.
Speaker 1: And the question is, Bob, are they hearing that? I
Speaker 1: know a number of cardinals have gone into these general
Speaker 1: meetings this week and said, brothers, we have a problem.
Speaker 1: There's a lack of clarity, that people are confused, that
Speaker 1: they're abandoning us because of this. We are the s.
Speaker 1: We are the axis Mundi, as our friend Richard Nuhaus
Speaker 1: used to say, this is the axis mundi upon which
Speaker 1: the whole world turns. When you throw that off balance,
Speaker 1: every faith is thrown off balance. Do you think they're
Speaker 1: getting that message. I'm hearing mixed things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm hearing that as well. I think that they
Speaker 2: are not particularly well informed about these controversies and potential
Speaker 2: crises that exist in the church, potential divisions. Our friend
Speaker 2: Cardinal Mueller has talked about the possibility of sism if
Speaker 2: some of these things aren't remedied, and I agree with
Speaker 2: that absolutely entirely. And then there's just a bigger question
Speaker 2: what is the role of the church in the world
Speaker 2: right now?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 2: We want the church to be going out and evangelizing,
Speaker 2: but should it be evangelizing in a way that it
Speaker 2: entangles it in some certain political issues.
Speaker 3: Like immigration for example. We've talked about this before on.
Speaker 2: The show, which make it almost look like to be
Speaker 2: a Catholic in our time is to take a certain
Speaker 2: political stance. I think that that's the wrong thing for
Speaker 2: a pope to do, and in fact, I think it's
Speaker 2: been counterproductive, not only in North America but also in
Speaker 2: Europe that the Pope Francis harped so much on the
Speaker 2: immigration question when everyday people are finding their communities being
Speaker 2: destroyed and even the rule of law being violated in
Speaker 2: certain areas because certain groups are given preference that there's
Speaker 2: two tiered policing, for example, in some places. So look,
Speaker 2: there's a lot there, and there's a lot within the church,
Speaker 2: and there's a lot outside. I don't have a great
Speaker 2: deal of confidence that these people are hearing it. I
Speaker 2: don't have to have a great deal of confidence that
Speaker 2: they knew it before they arrived here. So you know,
Speaker 2: I mentioned the steep learning curve.
Speaker 3: Let's just hope.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all you can do at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, hope and pray, which you know, Cardinal Burke
Speaker 1: has launched this novena, a crusade, if you will, a
Speaker 1: prayer to invite the Holy Spirit to work a miracle
Speaker 1: here and break through the consciences of these cardinals fathers.
Speaker 1: As we wrap up, the most surprising thing you heard
Speaker 1: or came across in the last couple of days. One
Speaker 1: hears and sees things here that you don't see other places.
Speaker 1: I mean, you just come across the entirety of the church.
Speaker 1: It's sort of the crossroads for the world.
Speaker 4: Well, that's a hard question. I guess the most surprising
Speaker 4: thing is that hearing the notion that there's kind of
Speaker 4: a resistance to candor resistance to the appeals of people
Speaker 4: in the College of Cardins who are dissatisfied with what
Speaker 4: we have, because if that's the case, then we're you know,
Speaker 4: amnesia becomes a requisite for getting the next pope elected.
Speaker 4: I mean, how can you pretend, with the decline in
Speaker 4: religious practice in Europe, for instance, that we don't have
Speaker 4: a five alarm fire going on in the church in Europe.
Speaker 4: I mean we have basically a political class hostile to
Speaker 4: the church. People aren't going there. The ones who like
Speaker 4: the Latin Mass and were going were being evicted, and
Speaker 4: we have people resigning from the church in Germany, the
Speaker 4: vocations picture the birth Dearth. You know, all of the
Speaker 4: problems that we have in Europe and to say that
Speaker 4: the mission of church is fine because we're instructing people
Speaker 4: that immigrants should be allowed in Capitalism produces death, and
Speaker 4: you know, we have to do everything possible we can
Speaker 4: not to have an environmental crisis and say to well,
Speaker 4: wait a minute, I thought religions about getting to heaven
Speaker 4: and how to live well on earth. So I think
Speaker 4: if the cardinals don't confront that we have a problematic situation,
Speaker 4: then they're amnesiacs. And you know, they're not going to
Speaker 4: be putting the right man in place. I hope that
Speaker 4: doesn't happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, the most surprising thing you've heard in the
Speaker 1: last few days, or they changed your perception of something
Speaker 1: you had on your way here.
Speaker 2: Well, I can give you a precise number a cardinal
Speaker 2: that who I trust very much. Yeah, says he thinks
Speaker 2: that there are only ten cardinals among the voters who
Speaker 2: are actually theologians.
Speaker 1: Wow, out of one hundred and thirty three.
Speaker 3: Out of one hundred and thirty three.
Speaker 2: So I don't think he meant by that, you know,
Speaker 2: that they were academic theologians, or that they had some
Speaker 2: kind of specialty. I think he was just saying that,
Speaker 2: you know, it's good solid understanding the faith, the enormous
Speaker 2: tradition that we have.
Speaker 3: You know, there's been brought forward.
Speaker 2: I mean, you can talk about mercy all you like,
Speaker 2: but the Church is says that that idea of mercy
Speaker 2: is informed by two thousand years a very holy geniuses
Speaker 2: who have contributed to a tradition that enables us to
Speaker 2: understand human beings, our relationship to one another, and our
Speaker 2: relationship to God. And if we don't have a rich
Speaker 2: understanding of that a person that is, for example, is
Speaker 2: not well schooled in Saint Augustine or Saint Thomas aquoiments.
Speaker 2: You know, we're just it says tired metaphor, but we're
Speaker 2: arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. We're not really
Speaker 2: getting to the place we want to get by being
Speaker 2: on the ship of faith.
Speaker 3: So that number of boy that was a surprising number
Speaker 3: to me.
Speaker 1: That's troubling. And as father alluded to earlier, at a
Speaker 1: time when young people and we saw it over Easter
Speaker 1: in France, in the United States, huge numbers coming to
Speaker 1: be baptized, and they're all young people, and a lot
Speaker 1: of them are guys. I've seen them. I saw them
Speaker 1: at old Saint Patrick's Church down in the village. You know,
Speaker 1: here are all these young guys coming to be baptized.
Speaker 1: What is driving that? And here's the real challenge for
Speaker 1: the cardinals. Are the young people that are coming. Are
Speaker 1: they coming for the church you're giving them and the
Speaker 1: church that is and was, or will they find some
Speaker 1: other church presented to them that they didn't sign up for.
Speaker 1: And that to me is the biggest concern. And if
Speaker 1: they were, if they're worried about the future, they should
Speaker 1: look to that Father.
Speaker 4: Yeah, agreement, Raymond, exactly. You know, the enthusiasm in the
Speaker 4: church is based on enthusiasm for the eternal truths, the
Speaker 4: permanent things, and then the mystic. You know, the mystery
Speaker 4: of life does not consist in fixing the plumbing. Plumbing
Speaker 4: is important, but that's not why we call a priest,
Speaker 4: you know. So you know, the pope's job is not
Speaker 4: to be chief advisor to human wellness project of the
Speaker 4: United Nations.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: It has to be how do we get people to
Speaker 4: recognize Jesus's Lord and then accept his teaching and then
Speaker 4: live in accordance with it. And Cardinal Sarah famously wrote
Speaker 4: a book called God or Nothing, and I think that
Speaker 4: really should be the motto of those going into the
Speaker 4: Senate into the conflict. Rather, we're here to serve God.
Speaker 4: Otherwise nothing matters.
Speaker 1: Well. You also said something early on about candor and
Speaker 1: Archbishop Charles ship Hew, formerly of Philadelphia. He wrote a
Speaker 1: great piece, very short piece, but he said, I have
Speaker 1: lovely and warm memories of Pope Francis. But and interregnum,
Speaker 1: the time between the death of the pope and the
Speaker 1: election of another, it's a time for candor. He said,
Speaker 1: it's a time to candidly say this is what we
Speaker 1: went through, and this is what we need, this is
Speaker 1: what needs fixing. And unless the cardinals are willing to
Speaker 1: do that, and all of us, everybody listening, and those
Speaker 1: of us here, unless we're willing to engage in that
Speaker 1: same candor I worry about the outcome here because then
Speaker 1: it collapses into nostalgia and you know, isn't it wonderful?
Speaker 1: And police pray for us all and you know, a
Speaker 1: sainted pope. It's just it's not reality. I'll give you
Speaker 1: all each the last word of what you're looking forward
Speaker 1: to in the week ahead. Bob will start with you.
Speaker 3: Well, I mentioned it earlier.
Speaker 2: I really hope that what we're going to see is
Speaker 2: kind of an increasing diversity of yours.
Speaker 3: I think is a way to look at it.
Speaker 2: That as people begin to know one another and they
Speaker 2: feel a little bit more comfortable with one another, they're
Speaker 2: willing to venture out and raise some questions. Because we
Speaker 2: were all told, you know, we just mentioned these young people,
Speaker 2: that there was going to be a Francis effect that
Speaker 2: was going to draw people into the church, draw young.
Speaker 3: People into the church and whatnot.
Speaker 2: We haven't seen that and the church is emorrhaging people
Speaker 2: left and right, and in the United States, here in Europe,
Speaker 2: and it seems to be strong in Africa and a
Speaker 2: few other places. But if we want a global effect
Speaker 2: of really bringing the Gospel of Jesus Christ to people
Speaker 2: so that they come to Christ themselves, I think we
Speaker 2: need to set off in a different direction. We had
Speaker 2: twelve years of mercy, mercy, mercy, and I think we
Speaker 2: need something else right now. And I think why is
Speaker 2: observers of the church and the world at this point
Speaker 2: we'll lash onto that and maybe we'll be surprised that
Speaker 2: some of the opinions we start to see a.
Speaker 4: Peer Father Gerald Murray, Yeah, Raymond, I would say, I'm
Speaker 4: looking forward to hearing more public expressions of what's going
Speaker 4: on in these general congregations. And I'm looking forward to
Speaker 4: hearing what I would say is basic Christianity being put
Speaker 4: forward as the most important criteria here. Yeah, when that
Speaker 4: cardinal or whoever gets up at a meeting and says X,
Speaker 4: y Z, I hope we'll also get in front of
Speaker 4: the microphone and tell us because in the age of communications,
Speaker 4: it's not enough to tell people we know what we're doing.
Speaker 4: You know, trust us. We have to say, tell us
Speaker 4: what you want, well, support it if it sounds good.
Speaker 4: So that would be what I'd look forward to. More information,
Speaker 4: more sharing, and then to be quite honest, more cardinals, Sarah,
Speaker 4: approach God or nothing.
Speaker 1: Okay, here's the hall. Cutting through all of this, I
Speaker 1: sometimes feel I'm covering disoriented journalists as they cover disoriented cardinalists.
Speaker 1: There are more than four thousand journalists in Rome for
Speaker 1: this papal event, so many of them are asking me directions.
Speaker 1: They're not sure what a conclave is. They're mistaking bishops
Speaker 1: and monsignors for cardinals. So I get it. Poor guys
Speaker 1: get dropped in the middle of a major news story.
Speaker 1: They're trying to figure it out. The problem is that
Speaker 1: he's very complex. The ritual's complex, the lead up is complex,
Speaker 1: and the payoff is even more complex. So there's a
Speaker 1: lot of unpredicted in this conclave. As we keep repeating,
Speaker 1: the cardinals don't know each other, and for ten years
Speaker 1: Pope France has forbade meetings of the College of Cardinals,
Speaker 1: so this is the first time they've all been together
Speaker 1: in a decade before many of them were even chosen.
Speaker 1: So the outcome is in God's hands. Stay tuned and
Speaker 1: stay with us for daily updates from the conclave. Crew
Speaker 1: will bring you those from Rome throughout this conclave and
Speaker 1: then the election of the new Pope. Go subscribe to
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