WEBVTT - Fr. Gerald Murray & Robert Royal: The Next Pope - A Deep Dive into the Conclave 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:03.680 The Conclave, who are the major candidates for pope and 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:06.880 how will the last pope determine his successor? The Conclave 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:10.040 Crew has answers on this edition of The Arroyo Grande 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:25.160 Show with Raymond Arroyo from Rome. Thanks, I'm Raymond Royal. 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:27.880 Welcome to Royal Grande, coming to you from Rome. Go 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:31.360 subscribe to the show now and turn the notifications on 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:34.120 so you know what's coming. This episode is brought to 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:38.280 you by our friends at Taylor Frigone Capital Management, Faith, 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:44.159 Family and Finances. Visit Taylorfregone dot com. Let's convene the 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:47.560 Conclave Crew, Father Gerald Murray Cannon, lawyer from the Archdiocese 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:51.199 of New York, and Robert Royal, editor in chief of 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:54.279 The Catholic Thing dot Org. I'm Raymond Royo. We're going 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:57.560 to explore the major candidates for the papacy, at least 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:01.160 those we're hearing about most frequently as we travel about Rome, 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:03.800 as we go to dinners and talk with cardinals, and 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:08.440 later we'll explore the factors that will determine this papal 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:11.920 election that you might not be aware of. Watch Bob, 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:14.360 I'm going to start with you about the history of 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:16.920 this process of selecting a pope. I know in twelve 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:20.479 seventy four they instituted this idea of locking the cardinals 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:25.280 into the Cistine chapel kunkab with the key. And the 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:27.880 reason was, I think the conflict was just going too long. 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:31.160 It was over several years, and they felt they couldn't 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:33.360 put up with this anymore, so they locked them in 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:36.560 and denied them food. Tell me about the current version 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.840 of this. Why have these traditions endured? Why continue to 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:41.800 do that when they could meet in the Paul the 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:44.160 sixth Senate Hall where they've been meeting and pick a 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:44.640 pope there. 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:50.560 Well, besides the beauty and the tradition of the Cystine chapel, 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:53.200 I think that it's important and people have realized this 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:57.600 more and more, particularly with all the electronic surveillance capabilities 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:00.360 that exist, that these people when they go into vote 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:02.960 are really insulated from any pressure. 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:04.279 There's plenty of pressure from. 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:06.720 The outside right now, all kinds of groups talking to 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:09.160 people and trying to get their you know, their channel 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:15.520 moving along. But you've got a certain pascheantry to this 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:18.680 that I think is kind of important to preserve because 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:22.280 otherwise this just becomes a democratic process, and it's not that. 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.400 It really is reaching back into a long history of 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:29.400 two thousand year history of the successors to Peter. And 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:31.800 what better place to kind of convey that than in 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:35.960 the splendor that Michaelangelo painted that gives us not only 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:39.000 the moment of creation, but the prophets and so much 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:40.600 more in the Sistine Chapel and. 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:43.960 Father, I imagine there's a little fear and trembling when you 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:48.000 approach that Michelangelo masterpiece of the Last Judgment, and he's 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:51.240 got popes and bishops, you know, in the mire of 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:54.040 hell there. So I guess it's a reminder as they 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:57.480 make their power to God and cast their vote. 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:00.480 Surely that's exactly what's going on. In fact, yes, this 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:04.000 is a sacred activity that they're engaged in selecting the 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:06.480 next Bishop of Rome, the next Vicar of Christ, the 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:10.920 next Supreme Ponta. So to contemplate the eternal judgment that 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:13.560 God renders on us. That's that's the best way to 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:15.800 make a good vote, I think, Yeah. 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:17.680 Okay, I want to talk for a moment everybody. For 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:19.720 those who are new to this, they see these men 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:23.040 wearing red, which is a way of signifying their willingness 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:26.320 to spill their blood for Christ. Talk a bit about 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:29.920 how they're selected, why a cardinal is different from a bishop, Bob, 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:31.120 I'll let you start there. 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:35.480 Well, I'll defers to a certain extent to our canonist here, 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:40.480 of course. But cardinals obviously have a special status. They're bishops, 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:45.680 like all other bishops in the church. They normally are 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:49.680 selected because they are presiding over a large sea. It 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:52.800 could be a place like Paris, although Paris doesn't have 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:54.840 one because but Francis chose not. 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:55.280 To do that. 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:57.360 It could be a place like Milan. Milan does not 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:01.040 have one this time because of the previous pope selections. 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:03.520 But as we know from the United States and elsewhere, 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:06.440 in a place like New York, Chicago, can of Los 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:09.760 Angeles has not been chosing this Timerald. They're the places 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:13.680 they typically you select a bishop from because he has 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:17.839 a wide experience, he has a large responsibility already. And 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:21.680 these are the men that come together periodically, very often. 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:24.240 They've been appointed to these dead castories that they've run, 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:27.160 the various offices in the Roman courtier. They get to 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:29.640 know one another, they learned about the business of the church. 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:33.160 They advise the Holy Father and it's a good way 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:35.920 to have a kind of a collegiality at a very 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:39.400 high level, but without reducing it to simply kind of 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:44.000 a representation by regions or a kind of a democratic process. 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:48.960 It's a kind of a spirituality linked with the practicalities 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:49.960 of a global church. 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:53.480 In the last few days, some candidates seem to be 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:55.080 moving to the fore and I've been getting a lot 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.840 of emails over the weekend and today tell us who 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:00.719 the candidates are. Now, I say these aim to be 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:05.400 on the roster because this process feels more vague than 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:08.039 the last two conclaves, mostly because these men don't know 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:10.600 each other and they are not aligned in their vision 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:12.680 of the church or perspective on the world. So I 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:14.880 want to start. I'm going to break this up into groups. 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:17.599 We'll start with the progressive candidates, who were hearing the 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.039 most about while we're in Rome, then move on to 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:23.400 the traditional conservative candidates, and then those who might be 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:28.880 considered compromised, starting with Cardinal Pietro Paoline father than Bob. 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:31.120 The oddsmakers have him at the top of their list. 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:34.120 He's seventy years old, the second most powerful man in 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:37.200 the Vatican after Pope Francis. He was a lifelong diplomat. 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.920 He worked in Nigeria, in Mexico. Father his great protege 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:43.960 was Cardinal Silver Screening, who was part of that Saint 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:47.360 Gallen group that we have to say it engineered Pope 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:52.240 Francis's election. Why might cardinals choose him and why not? 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:57.680 Cardinal Paroline would represent continuity to a large extent with 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.760 the vision and actions of Poe France. He worked with 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:03.599 Pout Francis for twelve years. As the Secretary of State. 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:08.320 He was implementing most of post Francis's important decisions in 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:12.240 the international field, such as the China Deal, such as 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:16.920 his concern for ecology and immigration. Cardinal Paroline is well 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:20.640 known because most of the cardinals, all of them would 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:22.479 have met him when they came to Rome in order 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:25.159 to receive their red hat. So other cardinals don't know 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:28.279 each other often cases because there were no very few 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:31.839 general meetings of the cardinals under Pot Francis, they all 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:35.560 know who Cardinal Paroline is, so yeah, he would represent continuity. 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:40.160 His style is less abrasive than post Francis, For Francis 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:44.000 did have an abrasive style with people that he disagreed with. 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:47.520 And a few people found out to their regret that 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:51.680 if you crossed Po Francis disagreed, you might not continue 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:54.760 to be living where you are, such as Archbishop Gensfeind 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:57.720 was told to leave Rome and Cardinal berg was told 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:01.680 to leave his residence. I would expect Paralleline to get 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:03.360 a lot of votes on the first day. 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:07.080 Really, Okay, Bob, tell me about that China deal with 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:13.040 father reference. That obviously a major dark mark on Pope 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:17.760 Francis's pontificate. But Cardinal Parlene was at the center of that. 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:20.480 He was the man moving it. Really, he was moving 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:23.360 it from the early you know, the earliest moments of 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:28.040 this pontificate and the Vatican finances with which he bears 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.720 some culpability. Talk to me about that. A story just 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:34.640 emerged that his signature showed up on that London real 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:36.160 estate deal that went belly up. 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:41.040 Yeah, these are two things that I think are probably 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:43.520 already limiting the number of people who are willing to 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:47.080 support him, because we know from people like our friend 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.440 Cardinal Zen, who has been a very courageous, clear voice 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:55.200 for the Catholics and others just human rights defense in 0:07:55.960 --> 0:08:01.200 that awful communist Chinese regime. We know that he's that 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:07.560 this agreement is basically abandoned Chinese Catholics. Just during this interregnum, 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:11.960 we have seen that these Chinese have appointed two bishops. 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:16.200 They are in theory, we don't know what the accord was, 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:20.080 but in theory they're supposed to propose some candidates and 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:22.320 Rome is either supposed to say yes or no. There's 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:24.760 no one in Rome right now to approve or disapprove, 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.760 and they just appointed two bishops, knowing full well that 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:31.080 there's no partner that they're in conversation with. So I 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:35.520 think anybody who's paying attention knows that Cardinal Potterlin has 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:39.000 just blown it with the Chinese. The Church is under 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:43.280 the thumb of a totalitarian regime and there doesn't seem 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:44.800 to be any way to roll this back. 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:45.439 Now. 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:48.160 Similarly, the thing that you just mentioned on Sloan Street 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:51.720 in London where the church lost probably just short of 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:55.040 two hundred million euros, maybe even more of We don't 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:57.960 really know how that shaked out in the end, and 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:02.440 he was closely responsible for that. Now, you know, you 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:04.920 try to track these money matters down in the Vatican 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:08.280 etiquets extremely complicated. People are pointing fingers at one another. 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:10.840 The Pope signed off on this. He signed off. But 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:13.839 however you want to want to ultimately decide about this, 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:17.600 Cardinal Paroline is responsible for losing more money than probably 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:21.280 the entire Vatican has as his budget for a given year. 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:23.840 So that too, at a time when we know that 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:27.319 there's a tremendous deficit for the Vatican employees in their 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:31.840 retirement funds. The yearly operations of the Vatican are very 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:34.840 very poor shape. They're selling off assets to kind of 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:38.880 meet their expenses here after year. These are two tough things, 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:41.640 and I think people who are looking for a kind 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:43.720 of reformer who is going to take a slightly different 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:45.120 direction are going. 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:46.960 To have some doubts about capowerline. 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:50.240 Father. Before we leave this topic, there was a health 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.520 scare Cardinal Parolini, it was reported, had a panic attack. 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.280 They brought medical personnel in that attended to them for 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:59.439 an hour. The Vatican then came out and denied that story. 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.040 But I've spoken to a couple of cardinals who claimed 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:05.160 they were there and saw it. How would that impact 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:06.520 his candidacy. 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:08.760 Do you think, yes, well, you know, a healthscare based 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:13.800 on some incident involving fluctuating blood pressure well, that could 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:16.280 indicate that the cardinal has a problem that needs to 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:21.600 be attended to. There certainly wouldn't give confidence that you know, 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.800 he's going to be a candidate who will not encounter 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:29.720 some medical difficulties. Hard to read without further knowledge, but yeah, 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:31.920 I mean the fact that Vatican denies that other people 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:35.319 say it happened, their right witnesses, etc. A little bit 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.560 of intrigue that I'm sure Cardinal Paralley would prefer not 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:39.040 to have. 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:43.840 Yeah, let's talk about Cardinal Lewis Antonio Toadgley sixty seven 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:47.559 years old, the kind of a brilliant Asian cardinal from 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:52.280 the Philippines, warm experior known as the Asian Francis. He 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:55.800 was close to that Polonia school and continues to be 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.840 a proponent starting with Bob, what is that Bob? And 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:01.920 what do you make of Togli as a candidate? 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:06.920 Well, in a nutshell, the Bologna school put this a 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:09.760 little bit simply is a proponent of what is called 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:12.880 a hermineutic of rupture, in other words, an understanding of 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:17.920 Vatican two that claims that Vatican who broke with the 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:20.840 previous Church. Now contrary to that, of course, we had 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.920 Pope Benedict who talked about a hermautic of continuity, because 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:30.080 in Catholicism there really can't be a radical contradiction between 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:31.640 one period of the Church and another. I mean, we 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:34.640 are always throughout history we're in the same church as 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:36.000 Jesus Christ established. 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:37.320 But Toadley was very. 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:39.439 Close to that so called school of Bologna. I mean 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.160 for something like fifteen years he was involved with their 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:45.360 conferences and whatnot, and they've been a very powerful voice 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:48.719 here in Italy for promoting that idea of rupture. And 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.120 other's changed. There's always change when you have a conference 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:54.880 or a senate or whatever, but rupture is something quite different, 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:57.319 and for him to have been that deeply into it, 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:00.000 for me, it raises some profound and even kind of 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:03.240 fundamental questions about who he is. The other thing about 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:07.360 him is I don't think of him as a mature 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.560 and stable candidate, if I can put that way. You know, 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:13.480 he's outgoing and he said bulliant, but I think we 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:16.320 want to Pupe with a little bit of gravitas this time. 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:19.920 Father Toddley was brought to Rome by Pope Francis after 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:23.520 Dnity made march Bishop of Manila in twenty nineteen, he 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:27.280 was prefected the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples. Then 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:30.679 they restructured it he became pro prefect. He was also 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:34.680 president of Caratas International, which is a huge international charity. 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:38.080 The Pope fired him and the entire leadership team in 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:41.120 twenty twenty two. Will that affect his chances here? 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:44.839 Well, it'll certainly cause questions among people. Is he a 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:48.080 competent manager? What was the reason the Pope fired him? 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:52.920 We never got a full explanation on it, but yeah, 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:57.840 I mean, as with any management position, if your immediate 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:02.040 superior loses confidence in you, you're either a victim or 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:05.199 somebody who failed, and I would say he could be 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:06.439 a combination of both. 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:10.000 He also has a spotty sex abuse record, according to 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.440 some of the reportage, and by that there was I 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:16.600 mean there was a convicted pedophile whom he allowed to 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:20.520 stay on the job at Caratas, which could be an 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.160 explanation for why he and the leadership team were cleaned out. 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:27.160 But I want to move on. Cardinal Anders Arborelis of 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.640 Sweden seventy five year old. He was Pope Francis's pick. 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:34.480 This is interesting. He was Pope Francis's pick as his 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:38.880 own successor. He entered the Carmelite monastery was elevated by 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:42.559 John Paul the Second. He said, I didn't really understand 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:45.280 that I had to decide things. I was not used 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:47.480 to it. I had never held an eleading position in 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:52.319 a monastery either, and rather withdrawn by nature. Father. He 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:54.560 has a great devotion to the Euchrist, the Virgin Mary. 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:57.200 He's opposed to the German sonon a way. Your thoughts 0:13:57.200 --> 0:13:58.839 on his candidacy. 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.360 Now, I think he's an excellent Candiday. He is a 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:04.720 convert to the faith. He's the first native Swiss, native 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:09.840 Swedish bishop since the Reformation, and he's done an outstanding job. 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:10.800 In my opinion. 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:13.679 The Nordic Bishop's conference is one of the best in 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.559 the world. They have some excellent bishops in the Scandinavian countries. 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.920 The man is very educated, a linguist, so I think 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:25.960 he would be a very good candidate for the papacy 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:29.880 and someone that will get a serious consideration during the voting. 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:34.640 Bob Wire progressives advancing that candidacy, do you think. 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:38.640 Well, there are certain issues in which he follows along 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:41.800 with Francis. I think he's a strong proponent of further immigration. 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.160 I don't see why, because Sweden is actually very disturbed 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:49.240 because of kind of unremulated Muslim immigration. It seems that 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.200 some of the immigration has added to the numbers of 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:54.920 Catholics up in Sweden. So maybe there's a kind of 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:57.920 a nuance that he has about what that is. Father 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:00.440 mentioned that he's a linguist. I looked into the because 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:03.520 I studied multiple languages when I was younger, and I'm 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:04.920 not sure he speaks Italian. 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:06.640 This would be quite interesting. 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:09.560 If he doesn't, how is he going to conduct his 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:12.680 babacy in English? Or he may be a quick study 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:16.880 and maybe he'll learn learn Italian. And also I think 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:20.160 this would be an interesting twist. He started life as 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:23.480 a Lutheran, so we would probably be getting a Lutheran 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:26.280 Protestant in the back door to come in as a pope. 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:28.200 But he seems to be a very fine man, a 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:33.720 very serious, thoughtful, spiritual man. I also hope that he's 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.320 a good administrator, because the next pound is going to 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:36.960 have to be one. 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:41.160 We're hearing a lot of chatter also about Cardinal Jean 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:45.120 Marc Aveline. He's sixty six years old, Archbishop of Marseille 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:49.680 doctorate in theology, an intimate friend of Pope Francis. Every 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:51.840 time he was here, they'd enjoy time together and spend 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:56.960 time together. He's claims that all the reporters claims that 0:15:57.040 --> 0:16:01.960 he reflects Francis's love for immigrants, religious dialogue without an 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:06.960 emphasis on conversion. Father, your reaction to this candidacy, Yeah, 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:10.920 he just shares many traits that Pot Francis brought forth 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:15.160 during his twelve years of the pontificate. He is a 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:21.000 French cardinal and an important diasis in Marseille. But you know, 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:25.480 it's something the cardinals will think about him. 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.240 I'll say that much if they want a continuity, in 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:33.840 other words, continue Francis's different emphasis, you know, economic, political, social, 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:37.320 and doctrinal. I think Abilene would fit the bill, Bob. 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.040 He's a big advocate for decentralizing the church and the 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.440 Sonatyl model, which he is a big advocate of. Is 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:45.280 that what these electors are looking for? Is that what 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:46.040 you're hearing here? 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:50.600 Well, you know, I think that he raises a question, 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:53.160 because we've talked about this before in other context, that 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:56.680 do you put your emphasis mostly on going along to 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:58.000 get along with people around you? 0:16:58.160 --> 0:16:59.040 Or do you are you a. 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:03.400 More forceful evangelizer? And he was born in Algeria when 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:06.679 Algeria was still a department of France, so it was 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:09.359 technically part of France, and so he's a little bit 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:12.879 sympathetic for the North Africans who were moving into Europe. 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.560 And of course Marseille is a very mixed city, and 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:18.320 you have to be able to manage the situations that 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:21.760 you're in. But you know, here comes the question do 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:25.040 we really want to have well, Europeans really want to 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:30.240 see more Muslim immigration. The Muslims who already exist in 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:32.800 most of the large European countries are going to have 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:37.080 to be managed in some fashion. They can't be quite integrated. 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:41.320 They seem to be resistance to integration. Is the church 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:44.960 that he would lead going to be one that consistently 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:50.600 emphasizes listening and welcoming rather than evangelizing. It seems to 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:53.320 me that that's a question not only about him, but 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:55.400 it's going to be for others that you of course, 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.080 you want to have peace in the world, to try 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:00.199 to have to reduce conflict, but the church is in 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:02.480 business to evangelize. Christ told us to go out and 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:04.200 preach the Gospel to all nations. 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.040 Okay, I want to move to the more traditional candidates. First, 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:11.320 Cardinal Peter Erdo, seventy two year old Archbishop of Budapest 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:15.119 in Hungary. Degrees in theology, in canon law. In fact, 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:18.600 he was a professor to our confre Father Murray. He's 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:21.639 regarded as a holy man devoted to the liturgy. But 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:25.560 you even hear it this week in discussions, a timid man, 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:28.480 even a shy man. What do we know of Father Murray? 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:30.720 A very accurate description. 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:36.919 Brilliant scholar, a long time of Archbishop of Budapest. He 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:40.600 has force of conviction. He's definitely someone who knows the 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:41.760 difference between. 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:42.280 Right and wrong. 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:45.560 He's able to analyze the Sonadel Way, for instance. He's 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:49.439 able to analyze Marris Lititzi and the whole question of 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:52.840 what do we do regarding community for divorce and remarried. 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:56.520 He is soft spoken, but he also speaks I think 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:58.520 five languages, so he speaks Italian. 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:00.040 He would have perfect ease at that. 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:05.520 Yeah, he represents, in my opinion, someone who's eminently qualified 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.440 to continue the heritage of John Paul the second in 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:12.440 Pope Benedict, and then to modify those elements of Pope Francis, 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:16.000 this pontificate, which, in my opinion, the opinion I think 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.080 of many cardinals need to be revised because they were, 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:21.840 you know, in conflict with what was taught previously. 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:25.600 Bob, Cardinal George pell a friend of ours here of 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:29.000 happy memory, he thought Erdol would be the perfect successor 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:32.840 to Pope Francis, because I remember him saying he could 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:36.960 restore the rule of law to the Holy see your thoughts. 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:39.840 Yeah, you know, when I hear this talk about him 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.960 being timid, I was actually in the room. I think 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:46.919 Father Murray was as well. In the first Senate on 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.880 the Family, there was an interim report that came out 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:53.600 and in the Sala Stampa it was noted in the 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:57.240 summary that there was a paragraph asking people to value 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:01.720 what was good in homosexual relationship. And you know, people 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:04.840 were utterly stunned that this was coming in a Vatican document. 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:07.080 It was the first time that it had happened. And 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.239 Airdu was the chairman of that session when they were 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:14.159 presenting the intermediate report, and he pointed to Archbishop Bruno 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:16.679 Forte and he said to yes, people wanted to know, 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:18.280 how is this there, what does this mean? And he 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:21.320 pointed out him and he said, look, you wrote that paragraft. 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:23.240 Why don't you explain it to the people. 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:25.600 So he may be quiet, he may. 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:27.959 Be soft spoken, but he's also willing to put somebody 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:30.200 on the spot when there's a reason to do that, 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:35.159 for a reason of doctrinal clarity. I think also because 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.240 he's a European, and a European not from one of 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:40.639 the major European countries but a little bit outside I 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:43.800 like Hungary and Slovakian and Portugal, some of these sort 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:45.640 of marginal European I think. 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:46.199 He brings a. 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:51.560 More steadying European influence to a europe that is in 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:56.000 a lot of turmoil in France, in Italy and England, Germany, 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.680 of course, and it would be very interesting to see 0:20:58.680 --> 0:20:59.879 what kind of influence he would have. 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:03.160 I want to now talk about Cardinal Robert Sarah, someone 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.600 who we've encountered in different ways. The seventy nine year 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:09.760 old former head of the Discipline of the Sacraments, clashed 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:14.080 with Pope Francis on the direction of the liturgy and 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:19.320 other matters. An Orthodox man son of converts from Animism 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:23.879 in Guinea, and he resisted a Marxist dictatorship as a 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:27.880 thirty four year old bishop, earning him the title Baby Bishop. 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:32.720 Tell me about his Orthodoxy father, particularly his love of 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:35.960 sacred worship as the head of the Vatican Liturgy Office 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:37.520 until Pope Francis removed him. 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:41.200 Yes, Cardinal Sayah is a remarkable man. He's written a 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:44.399 number of books, question and answer books in which he 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:48.399 reveals his life history, his convictions, his analysis of the 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:52.359 situation of the church. Now, he has been very forceful. 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:55.600 He wrote a book called God or Nothing, and he said, 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:59.600 that's the question all mankind faces today. Do we follow 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:02.600 God or do we opt for the nothingness, which is 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:06.480 what humanity without God is. He's seventy nine years old 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:09.399