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Speaker 1: The Conclave, who are the major candidates for pope and

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Speaker 1: how will the last pope determine his successor? The Conclave

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Speaker 1: Crew has answers on this edition of The Arroyo Grande

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Speaker 1: Show with Raymond Arroyo from Rome. Thanks, I'm Raymond Royal.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Royal Grande, coming to you from Rome. Go

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Speaker 1: subscribe to the show now and turn the notifications on

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Speaker 1: so you know what's coming. This episode is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by our friends at Taylor Frigone Capital Management, Faith,

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Speaker 1: Family and Finances. Visit Taylorfregone dot com. Let's convene the

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Speaker 1: Conclave Crew, Father Gerald Murray Cannon, lawyer from the Archdiocese

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Speaker 1: of New York, and Robert Royal, editor in chief of

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Speaker 1: The Catholic Thing dot Org. I'm Raymond Royo. We're going

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Speaker 1: to explore the major candidates for the papacy, at least

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Speaker 1: those we're hearing about most frequently as we travel about Rome,

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Speaker 1: as we go to dinners and talk with cardinals, and

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Speaker 1: later we'll explore the factors that will determine this papal

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Speaker 1: election that you might not be aware of. Watch Bob,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to start with you about the history of

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Speaker 1: this process of selecting a pope. I know in twelve

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Speaker 1: seventy four they instituted this idea of locking the cardinals

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Speaker 1: into the Cistine chapel kunkab with the key. And the

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Speaker 1: reason was, I think the conflict was just going too long.

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Speaker 1: It was over several years, and they felt they couldn't

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Speaker 1: put up with this anymore, so they locked them in

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Speaker 1: and denied them food. Tell me about the current version

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Speaker 1: of this. Why have these traditions endured? Why continue to

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Speaker 1: do that when they could meet in the Paul the

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Speaker 1: sixth Senate Hall where they've been meeting and pick a

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Speaker 1: pope there.

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Speaker 2: Well, besides the beauty and the tradition of the Cystine chapel,

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Speaker 2: I think that it's important and people have realized this

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Speaker 2: more and more, particularly with all the electronic surveillance capabilities

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Speaker 2: that exist, that these people when they go into vote

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Speaker 2: are really insulated from any pressure.

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Speaker 3: There's plenty of pressure from.

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Speaker 2: The outside right now, all kinds of groups talking to

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Speaker 2: people and trying to get their you know, their channel

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Speaker 2: moving along. But you've got a certain pascheantry to this

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Speaker 2: that I think is kind of important to preserve because

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Speaker 2: otherwise this just becomes a democratic process, and it's not that.

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Speaker 2: It really is reaching back into a long history of

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Speaker 2: two thousand year history of the successors to Peter. And

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Speaker 2: what better place to kind of convey that than in

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Speaker 2: the splendor that Michaelangelo painted that gives us not only

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Speaker 2: the moment of creation, but the prophets and so much

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Speaker 2: more in the Sistine Chapel and.

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Speaker 1: Father, I imagine there's a little fear and trembling when you

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Speaker 1: approach that Michelangelo masterpiece of the Last Judgment, and he's

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Speaker 1: got popes and bishops, you know, in the mire of

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Speaker 1: hell there. So I guess it's a reminder as they

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Speaker 1: make their power to God and cast their vote.

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Speaker 4: Surely that's exactly what's going on. In fact, yes, this

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Speaker 4: is a sacred activity that they're engaged in selecting the

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Speaker 4: next Bishop of Rome, the next Vicar of Christ, the

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Speaker 4: next Supreme Ponta. So to contemplate the eternal judgment that

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Speaker 4: God renders on us. That's that's the best way to

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Speaker 4: make a good vote, I think, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I want to talk for a moment everybody. For

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Speaker 1: those who are new to this, they see these men

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Speaker 1: wearing red, which is a way of signifying their willingness

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Speaker 1: to spill their blood for Christ. Talk a bit about

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Speaker 1: how they're selected, why a cardinal is different from a bishop, Bob,

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Speaker 1: I'll let you start there.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'll defers to a certain extent to our canonist here,

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Speaker 2: of course. But cardinals obviously have a special status. They're bishops,

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Speaker 2: like all other bishops in the church. They normally are

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Speaker 2: selected because they are presiding over a large sea. It

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Speaker 2: could be a place like Paris, although Paris doesn't have

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Speaker 2: one because but Francis chose not.

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Speaker 3: To do that.

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Speaker 2: It could be a place like Milan. Milan does not

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Speaker 2: have one this time because of the previous pope selections.

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Speaker 2: But as we know from the United States and elsewhere,

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Speaker 2: in a place like New York, Chicago, can of Los

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Speaker 2: Angeles has not been chosing this Timerald. They're the places

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Speaker 2: they typically you select a bishop from because he has

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Speaker 2: a wide experience, he has a large responsibility already. And

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Speaker 2: these are the men that come together periodically, very often.

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Speaker 2: They've been appointed to these dead castories that they've run,

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Speaker 2: the various offices in the Roman courtier. They get to

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Speaker 2: know one another, they learned about the business of the church.

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Speaker 2: They advise the Holy Father and it's a good way

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Speaker 2: to have a kind of a collegiality at a very

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Speaker 2: high level, but without reducing it to simply kind of

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Speaker 2: a representation by regions or a kind of a democratic process.

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Speaker 2: It's a kind of a spirituality linked with the practicalities

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Speaker 2: of a global church.

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Speaker 1: In the last few days, some candidates seem to be

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Speaker 1: moving to the fore and I've been getting a lot

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Speaker 1: of emails over the weekend and today tell us who

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Speaker 1: the candidates are. Now, I say these aim to be

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Speaker 1: on the roster because this process feels more vague than

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Speaker 1: the last two conclaves, mostly because these men don't know

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Speaker 1: each other and they are not aligned in their vision

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Speaker 1: of the church or perspective on the world. So I

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Speaker 1: want to start. I'm going to break this up into groups.

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Speaker 1: We'll start with the progressive candidates, who were hearing the

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Speaker 1: most about while we're in Rome, then move on to

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Speaker 1: the traditional conservative candidates, and then those who might be

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Speaker 1: considered compromised, starting with Cardinal Pietro Paoline father than Bob.

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Speaker 1: The oddsmakers have him at the top of their list.

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Speaker 1: He's seventy years old, the second most powerful man in

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Speaker 1: the Vatican after Pope Francis. He was a lifelong diplomat.

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Speaker 1: He worked in Nigeria, in Mexico. Father his great protege

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Speaker 1: was Cardinal Silver Screening, who was part of that Saint

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Speaker 1: Gallen group that we have to say it engineered Pope

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Speaker 1: Francis's election. Why might cardinals choose him and why not?

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Speaker 4: Cardinal Paroline would represent continuity to a large extent with

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Speaker 4: the vision and actions of Poe France. He worked with

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Speaker 4: Pout Francis for twelve years. As the Secretary of State.

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Speaker 4: He was implementing most of post Francis's important decisions in

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Speaker 4: the international field, such as the China Deal, such as

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Speaker 4: his concern for ecology and immigration. Cardinal Paroline is well

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Speaker 4: known because most of the cardinals, all of them would

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Speaker 4: have met him when they came to Rome in order

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Speaker 4: to receive their red hat. So other cardinals don't know

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Speaker 4: each other often cases because there were no very few

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Speaker 4: general meetings of the cardinals under Pot Francis, they all

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Speaker 4: know who Cardinal Paroline is, so yeah, he would represent continuity.

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Speaker 4: His style is less abrasive than post Francis, For Francis

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Speaker 4: did have an abrasive style with people that he disagreed with.

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Speaker 4: And a few people found out to their regret that

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Speaker 4: if you crossed Po Francis disagreed, you might not continue

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Speaker 4: to be living where you are, such as Archbishop Gensfeind

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Speaker 4: was told to leave Rome and Cardinal berg was told

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Speaker 4: to leave his residence. I would expect Paralleline to get

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Speaker 4: a lot of votes on the first day.

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Speaker 1: Really, Okay, Bob, tell me about that China deal with

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Speaker 1: father reference. That obviously a major dark mark on Pope

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Speaker 1: Francis's pontificate. But Cardinal Parlene was at the center of that.

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Speaker 1: He was the man moving it. Really, he was moving

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Speaker 1: it from the early you know, the earliest moments of

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Speaker 1: this pontificate and the Vatican finances with which he bears

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Speaker 1: some culpability. Talk to me about that. A story just

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Speaker 1: emerged that his signature showed up on that London real

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Speaker 1: estate deal that went belly up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, these are two things that I think are probably

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Speaker 2: already limiting the number of people who are willing to

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Speaker 2: support him, because we know from people like our friend

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Speaker 2: Cardinal Zen, who has been a very courageous, clear voice

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Speaker 2: for the Catholics and others just human rights defense in

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Speaker 2: that awful communist Chinese regime. We know that he's that

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Speaker 2: this agreement is basically abandoned Chinese Catholics. Just during this interregnum,

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Speaker 2: we have seen that these Chinese have appointed two bishops.

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Speaker 2: They are in theory, we don't know what the accord was,

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Speaker 2: but in theory they're supposed to propose some candidates and

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Speaker 2: Rome is either supposed to say yes or no. There's

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Speaker 2: no one in Rome right now to approve or disapprove,

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Speaker 2: and they just appointed two bishops, knowing full well that

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Speaker 2: there's no partner that they're in conversation with. So I

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Speaker 2: think anybody who's paying attention knows that Cardinal Potterlin has

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Speaker 2: just blown it with the Chinese. The Church is under

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Speaker 2: the thumb of a totalitarian regime and there doesn't seem

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Speaker 2: to be any way to roll this back.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: Similarly, the thing that you just mentioned on Sloan Street

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Speaker 2: in London where the church lost probably just short of

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Speaker 2: two hundred million euros, maybe even more of We don't

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Speaker 2: really know how that shaked out in the end, and

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Speaker 2: he was closely responsible for that. Now, you know, you

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Speaker 2: try to track these money matters down in the Vatican

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Speaker 2: etiquets extremely complicated. People are pointing fingers at one another.

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Speaker 2: The Pope signed off on this. He signed off. But

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Speaker 2: however you want to want to ultimately decide about this,

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Speaker 2: Cardinal Paroline is responsible for losing more money than probably

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Speaker 2: the entire Vatican has as his budget for a given year.

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Speaker 2: So that too, at a time when we know that

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Speaker 2: there's a tremendous deficit for the Vatican employees in their

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Speaker 2: retirement funds. The yearly operations of the Vatican are very

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Speaker 2: very poor shape. They're selling off assets to kind of

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Speaker 2: meet their expenses here after year. These are two tough things,

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Speaker 2: and I think people who are looking for a kind

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Speaker 2: of reformer who is going to take a slightly different

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Speaker 2: direction are going.

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Speaker 3: To have some doubts about capowerline.

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Speaker 1: Father. Before we leave this topic, there was a health

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Speaker 1: scare Cardinal Parolini, it was reported, had a panic attack.

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Speaker 1: They brought medical personnel in that attended to them for

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Speaker 1: an hour. The Vatican then came out and denied that story.

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Speaker 1: But I've spoken to a couple of cardinals who claimed

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Speaker 1: they were there and saw it. How would that impact

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Speaker 1: his candidacy.

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Speaker 4: Do you think, yes, well, you know, a healthscare based

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Speaker 4: on some incident involving fluctuating blood pressure well, that could

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Speaker 4: indicate that the cardinal has a problem that needs to

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Speaker 4: be attended to. There certainly wouldn't give confidence that you know,

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Speaker 4: he's going to be a candidate who will not encounter

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Speaker 4: some medical difficulties. Hard to read without further knowledge, but yeah,

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Speaker 4: I mean the fact that Vatican denies that other people

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Speaker 4: say it happened, their right witnesses, etc. A little bit

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Speaker 4: of intrigue that I'm sure Cardinal Paralley would prefer not

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Speaker 4: to have.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about Cardinal Lewis Antonio Toadgley sixty seven

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Speaker 1: years old, the kind of a brilliant Asian cardinal from

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Speaker 1: the Philippines, warm experior known as the Asian Francis. He

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Speaker 1: was close to that Polonia school and continues to be

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Speaker 1: a proponent starting with Bob, what is that Bob? And

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Speaker 1: what do you make of Togli as a candidate?

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Speaker 2: Well, in a nutshell, the Bologna school put this a

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Speaker 2: little bit simply is a proponent of what is called

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Speaker 2: a hermineutic of rupture, in other words, an understanding of

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Speaker 2: Vatican two that claims that Vatican who broke with the

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Speaker 2: previous Church. Now contrary to that, of course, we had

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Speaker 2: Pope Benedict who talked about a hermautic of continuity, because

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Speaker 2: in Catholicism there really can't be a radical contradiction between

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Speaker 2: one period of the Church and another. I mean, we

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Speaker 2: are always throughout history we're in the same church as

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Speaker 2: Jesus Christ established.

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Speaker 3: But Toadley was very.

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Speaker 2: Close to that so called school of Bologna. I mean

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Speaker 2: for something like fifteen years he was involved with their

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Speaker 2: conferences and whatnot, and they've been a very powerful voice

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Speaker 2: here in Italy for promoting that idea of rupture. And

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Speaker 2: other's changed. There's always change when you have a conference

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Speaker 2: or a senate or whatever, but rupture is something quite different,

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Speaker 2: and for him to have been that deeply into it,

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Speaker 2: for me, it raises some profound and even kind of

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Speaker 2: fundamental questions about who he is. The other thing about

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Speaker 2: him is I don't think of him as a mature

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Speaker 2: and stable candidate, if I can put that way. You know,

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Speaker 2: he's outgoing and he said bulliant, but I think we

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Speaker 2: want to Pupe with a little bit of gravitas this time.

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Speaker 1: Father Toddley was brought to Rome by Pope Francis after

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Speaker 1: Dnity made march Bishop of Manila in twenty nineteen, he

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Speaker 1: was prefected the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples. Then

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Speaker 1: they restructured it he became pro prefect. He was also

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Speaker 1: president of Caratas International, which is a huge international charity.

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Speaker 1: The Pope fired him and the entire leadership team in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. Will that affect his chances here?

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Speaker 4: Well, it'll certainly cause questions among people. Is he a

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Speaker 4: competent manager? What was the reason the Pope fired him?

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Speaker 4: We never got a full explanation on it, but yeah,

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Speaker 4: I mean, as with any management position, if your immediate

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Speaker 4: superior loses confidence in you, you're either a victim or

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Speaker 4: somebody who failed, and I would say he could be

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Speaker 4: a combination of both.

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Speaker 1: He also has a spotty sex abuse record, according to

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Speaker 1: some of the reportage, and by that there was I

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Speaker 1: mean there was a convicted pedophile whom he allowed to

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Speaker 1: stay on the job at Caratas, which could be an

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Speaker 1: explanation for why he and the leadership team were cleaned out.

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Speaker 1: But I want to move on. Cardinal Anders Arborelis of

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Speaker 1: Sweden seventy five year old. He was Pope Francis's pick.

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Speaker 1: This is interesting. He was Pope Francis's pick as his

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Speaker 1: own successor. He entered the Carmelite monastery was elevated by

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Speaker 1: John Paul the Second. He said, I didn't really understand

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Speaker 1: that I had to decide things. I was not used

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Speaker 1: to it. I had never held an eleading position in

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Speaker 1: a monastery either, and rather withdrawn by nature. Father. He

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Speaker 1: has a great devotion to the Euchrist, the Virgin Mary.

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Speaker 1: He's opposed to the German sonon a way. Your thoughts

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Speaker 1: on his candidacy.

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Speaker 4: Now, I think he's an excellent Candiday. He is a

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Speaker 4: convert to the faith. He's the first native Swiss, native

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Speaker 4: Swedish bishop since the Reformation, and he's done an outstanding job.

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Speaker 3: In my opinion.

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Speaker 4: The Nordic Bishop's conference is one of the best in

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Speaker 4: the world. They have some excellent bishops in the Scandinavian countries.

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Speaker 4: The man is very educated, a linguist, so I think

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Speaker 4: he would be a very good candidate for the papacy

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Speaker 4: and someone that will get a serious consideration during the voting.

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Speaker 1: Bob Wire progressives advancing that candidacy, do you think.

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Speaker 2: Well, there are certain issues in which he follows along

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Speaker 2: with Francis. I think he's a strong proponent of further immigration.

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Speaker 2: I don't see why, because Sweden is actually very disturbed

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Speaker 2: because of kind of unremulated Muslim immigration. It seems that

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Speaker 2: some of the immigration has added to the numbers of

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Speaker 2: Catholics up in Sweden. So maybe there's a kind of

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Speaker 2: a nuance that he has about what that is. Father

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Speaker 2: mentioned that he's a linguist. I looked into the because

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Speaker 2: I studied multiple languages when I was younger, and I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure he speaks Italian.

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Speaker 3: This would be quite interesting.

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Speaker 2: If he doesn't, how is he going to conduct his

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Speaker 2: babacy in English? Or he may be a quick study

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Speaker 2: and maybe he'll learn learn Italian. And also I think

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Speaker 2: this would be an interesting twist. He started life as

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Speaker 2: a Lutheran, so we would probably be getting a Lutheran

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Speaker 2: Protestant in the back door to come in as a pope.

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Speaker 2: But he seems to be a very fine man, a

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Speaker 2: very serious, thoughtful, spiritual man. I also hope that he's

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Speaker 2: a good administrator, because the next pound is going to

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Speaker 2: have to be one.

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Speaker 1: We're hearing a lot of chatter also about Cardinal Jean

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Speaker 1: Marc Aveline. He's sixty six years old, Archbishop of Marseille

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Speaker 1: doctorate in theology, an intimate friend of Pope Francis. Every

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Speaker 1: time he was here, they'd enjoy time together and spend

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Speaker 1: time together. He's claims that all the reporters claims that

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Speaker 1: he reflects Francis's love for immigrants, religious dialogue without an

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Speaker 1: emphasis on conversion. Father, your reaction to this candidacy, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he just shares many traits that Pot Francis brought forth

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Speaker 1: during his twelve years of the pontificate. He is a

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Speaker 1: French cardinal and an important diasis in Marseille. But you know,

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Speaker 1: it's something the cardinals will think about him.

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Speaker 4: I'll say that much if they want a continuity, in

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Speaker 4: other words, continue Francis's different emphasis, you know, economic, political, social,

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Speaker 4: and doctrinal. I think Abilene would fit the bill, Bob.

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Speaker 1: He's a big advocate for decentralizing the church and the

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Speaker 1: Sonatyl model, which he is a big advocate of. Is

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Speaker 1: that what these electors are looking for? Is that what

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Speaker 1: you're hearing here?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think that he raises a question,

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Speaker 2: because we've talked about this before in other context, that

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Speaker 2: do you put your emphasis mostly on going along to

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Speaker 2: get along with people around you?

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Speaker 3: Or do you are you a.

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Speaker 2: More forceful evangelizer? And he was born in Algeria when

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Speaker 2: Algeria was still a department of France, so it was

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Speaker 2: technically part of France, and so he's a little bit

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Speaker 2: sympathetic for the North Africans who were moving into Europe.

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Speaker 2: And of course Marseille is a very mixed city, and

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Speaker 2: you have to be able to manage the situations that

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Speaker 2: you're in. But you know, here comes the question do

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Speaker 2: we really want to have well, Europeans really want to

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Speaker 2: see more Muslim immigration. The Muslims who already exist in

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Speaker 2: most of the large European countries are going to have

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Speaker 2: to be managed in some fashion. They can't be quite integrated.

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Speaker 2: They seem to be resistance to integration. Is the church

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Speaker 2: that he would lead going to be one that consistently

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Speaker 2: emphasizes listening and welcoming rather than evangelizing. It seems to

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Speaker 2: me that that's a question not only about him, but

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Speaker 2: it's going to be for others that you of course,

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Speaker 2: you want to have peace in the world, to try

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Speaker 2: to have to reduce conflict, but the church is in

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Speaker 2: business to evangelize. Christ told us to go out and

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Speaker 2: preach the Gospel to all nations.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I want to move to the more traditional candidates. First,

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Speaker 1: Cardinal Peter Erdo, seventy two year old Archbishop of Budapest

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Speaker 1: in Hungary. Degrees in theology, in canon law. In fact,

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Speaker 1: he was a professor to our confre Father Murray. He's

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Speaker 1: regarded as a holy man devoted to the liturgy. But

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Speaker 1: you even hear it this week in discussions, a timid man,

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Speaker 1: even a shy man. What do we know of Father Murray?

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Speaker 1: A very accurate description.

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Speaker 4: Brilliant scholar, a long time of Archbishop of Budapest. He

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Speaker 4: has force of conviction. He's definitely someone who knows the

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Speaker 4: difference between.

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Speaker 3: Right and wrong.

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Speaker 4: He's able to analyze the Sonadel Way, for instance. He's

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Speaker 4: able to analyze Marris Lititzi and the whole question of

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Speaker 4: what do we do regarding community for divorce and remarried.

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Speaker 4: He is soft spoken, but he also speaks I think

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Speaker 4: five languages, so he speaks Italian.

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Speaker 3: He would have perfect ease at that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he represents, in my opinion, someone who's eminently qualified

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Speaker 4: to continue the heritage of John Paul the second in

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Speaker 4: Pope Benedict, and then to modify those elements of Pope Francis,

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Speaker 4: this pontificate, which, in my opinion, the opinion I think

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Speaker 4: of many cardinals need to be revised because they were,

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Speaker 4: you know, in conflict with what was taught previously.

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Speaker 1: Bob, Cardinal George pell a friend of ours here of

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Speaker 1: happy memory, he thought Erdol would be the perfect successor

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Speaker 1: to Pope Francis, because I remember him saying he could

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Speaker 1: restore the rule of law to the Holy see your thoughts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, when I hear this talk about him

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Speaker 2: being timid, I was actually in the room. I think

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Speaker 2: Father Murray was as well. In the first Senate on

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Speaker 2: the Family, there was an interim report that came out

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Speaker 2: and in the Sala Stampa it was noted in the

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Speaker 2: summary that there was a paragraph asking people to value

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Speaker 2: what was good in homosexual relationship. And you know, people

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Speaker 2: were utterly stunned that this was coming in a Vatican document.

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Speaker 2: It was the first time that it had happened. And

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Speaker 2: Airdu was the chairman of that session when they were

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Speaker 2: presenting the intermediate report, and he pointed to Archbishop Bruno

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Speaker 2: Forte and he said to yes, people wanted to know,

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Speaker 2: how is this there, what does this mean? And he

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Speaker 2: pointed out him and he said, look, you wrote that paragraft.

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Speaker 2: Why don't you explain it to the people.

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Speaker 3: So he may be quiet, he may.

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Speaker 2: Be soft spoken, but he's also willing to put somebody

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Speaker 2: on the spot when there's a reason to do that,

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Speaker 2: for a reason of doctrinal clarity. I think also because

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Speaker 2: he's a European, and a European not from one of

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Speaker 2: the major European countries but a little bit outside I

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Speaker 2: like Hungary and Slovakian and Portugal, some of these sort

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Speaker 2: of marginal European I think.

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Speaker 3: He brings a.

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Speaker 2: More steadying European influence to a europe that is in

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Speaker 2: a lot of turmoil in France, in Italy and England, Germany,

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Speaker 2: of course, and it would be very interesting to see

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Speaker 2: what kind of influence he would have.

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Speaker 1: I want to now talk about Cardinal Robert Sarah, someone

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Speaker 1: who we've encountered in different ways. The seventy nine year

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Speaker 1: old former head of the Discipline of the Sacraments, clashed

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Speaker 1: with Pope Francis on the direction of the liturgy and

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Speaker 1: other matters. An Orthodox man son of converts from Animism

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Speaker 1: in Guinea, and he resisted a Marxist dictatorship as a

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Speaker 1: thirty four year old bishop, earning him the title Baby Bishop.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about his Orthodoxy father, particularly his love of

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Speaker 1: sacred worship as the head of the Vatican Liturgy Office

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Speaker 1: until Pope Francis removed him.

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Speaker 4: Yes, Cardinal Sayah is a remarkable man. He's written a

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Speaker 4: number of books, question and answer books in which he

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Speaker 4: reveals his life history, his convictions, his analysis of the

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Speaker 4: situation of the church. Now, he has been very forceful.

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Speaker 4: He wrote a book called God or Nothing, and he said,

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Speaker 4: that's the question all mankind faces today. Do we follow

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Speaker 4: God or do we opt for the nothingness, which is

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Speaker 4: what humanity without God is. He's seventy nine years old

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Speaker 4: to turn eighty in the month of June. He's still

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Speaker 4: in good health. He's a vigorous man of prayer, very

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Speaker 4: serious about spiritual life as being the center of his life.

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Speaker 4: So this is one of my favorite cardinals, let alone

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Speaker 4: human beings on the planet. So I hope and pray

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Speaker 4: that he will get consideration.

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Speaker 1: Bob. He's a very fearless and faithful man. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he spoke out against the suppression of the Latin Liturgy,

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Speaker 1: the dangers of the Sonatal way and the synod on Cinnadale.

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Speaker 1: And tell me about the book he released with Pope

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Speaker 1: Benedict quickly on celibacy that caused an enormous stir and

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Speaker 1: will that hurt his chances? Do you think or lift them?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I think that although that book was kind of a

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Speaker 2: scandal at the time, and because of the relationships of

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Speaker 2: Benedict with a Pope Francis, it might be really it

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Speaker 2: might be overinterpreted now for us to think look back

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Speaker 2: and think that that might harm it. Look, he's a

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Speaker 2: terrific man. There's no question that if we want a

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Speaker 2: pope that's going to radiate holiness and radiate what Jesus

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Speaker 2: Christ is in his church, there could be no better

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Speaker 2: candidate than him. Now, as a somewhat historian of the church,

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Speaker 2: I have to point out that Celestian the fifth, it

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Speaker 2: was very saintly in his way to think it was

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Speaker 2: the previous pope who resigned, previous Ratzinger to bene at

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Speaker 2: the sixteen was a monk and came in because there

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Speaker 2: was a two year hiatus in the papacy and the

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Speaker 2: electors were told, you know, you got to make a decision.

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Speaker 2: They brought him in and he was a disaster. So

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Speaker 2: we know that a saintly man may not be the

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Speaker 2: best leader of the church. But if it's clear that

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Speaker 2: he comes in as the leader but gets around him

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Speaker 2: a team of administrators and people who are familiar with

434
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 2: the way that the internal machinations of the church play out,

435
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 2: I think he.

436
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 3: Could be a formidable pope.

437
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:04,919
Speaker 2: And it's not the case that the pope has to

438
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 2: run everything he could. If he's wise, and he certainly is,

439
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 2: he will find people who will help him.

440
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 1: Father Jerry, are you hearing him talked about in town?

441
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: People they love him, they think he was a great

442
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 1: is a great man, and a great witness to the faith.

443
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 1: But I haven't heard him talked about as a candidate. No.

444
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 4: And he's an internet phenomenon because he's so well known.

445
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 4: But he is seventy nine years old, and yeah, that's

446
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 4: taken into consideration.

447
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's move on to Cardinal William Ike.

448
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 1: He's the Archbishop of Utrech in the Netherlands, seventy one

449
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: year old medical doctor with a moral theology and philosophy

450
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 1: degree from the Angelicum here in Rome. Bob, He's fought

451
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: the secularism in the Netherlands. He's regarded as fiercely pro life.

452
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: Orthodox talk about his defensive marriage and the opposition to

453
00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 1: same sex blessings. Whoever wants to.

454
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 2: Take that, Yeah, well, I mean you put your finger

455
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 2: on the important thing about him. I mean, he's a

456
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 2: man who is a doctor before he had got his

457
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 2: religious vocation, and he's not going to be hoodwinked by

458
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 2: a lot of things that are said in public that

459
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 2: seem to be progressive but in fact are very anti live,

460
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 2: anti human.

461
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 3: Even the way that I would put it.

462
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 2: And to come out of the country that he does

463
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 2: in New attracting and to be a strong advocate for

464
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 2: marriage and the family. I think this is something that

465
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 2: Europe really really needs to hear, because it's not only

466
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 2: that Europe has this immigration problem the way we do

467
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 2: to a certain extent in North America. It also is

468
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 2: falling off the demographic cliff and if there aren't children

469
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 2: born in Europe, Europe will simply will It'll disappear, It'll

470
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 2: float away. So he's a guy that will come at

471
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,479
Speaker 2: this with both the credibility of knowing some science, probably

472
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 2: knowing some social science, but also having a very very

473
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 2: moral and theological formation father.

474
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,400
Speaker 1: There was a quote I read of his and he said,

475
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: the first secret about Hell. It made me think of you.

476
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: He said, the first secret about Hell. Well, I think

477
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: it's really a secret that remains highly relevant for our time.

478
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 1: That's our duty to make sure that we are in

479
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 1: charge of announcing the Catholic faith, that people don't end

480
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: up in Hell, and to warn them about it. And

481
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: he goes on and on. He also did a total

482
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: financial overhaul in his troubled diocese when he came in.

483
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,959
Speaker 1: Does that help his candidacy? Father? Though he did have

484
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: to close two thirds of the churches there. I mean

485
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 1: there was low attendance and no priests.

486
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,439
Speaker 4: Well, well help his candidacy if people know about it.

487
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 4: And this is one of the big issues. You know,

488
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 4: how each cardinal has run their own diocese is largely unknown,

489
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 4: I think to many of the cardinals because they don't meet,

490
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 4: they don't talk. And then you have newcomers from small

491
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 4: dioceses in far away places that you know, probably never

492
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 4: heard of the Diocese of Uhtrek to the extent of

493
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 4: knowing what's going on there.

494
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 1: They know it's a city and an.

495
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 4: Important historical place. But this is part of what's going

496
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 4: on right now? All these meetings get to know, and

497
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 4: then you have to trust cardinals who do know. So

498
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 4: it's sort of like, you know, the new students come

499
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 4: into the university and the professor takes him under the

500
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 4: wings and says, okay, you know, this is what you

501
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 4: need to know to be a successful student.

502
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 3: Here.

503
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to move on to a cardinal, Malcolm

504
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: Ranjith of Sri Lanka. I've been hearing his name whispered

505
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 1: here and there. He's a seventy seven year old studied

506
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: in Rome and Jerusalem. Served as Secretary of the Congregation

507
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: for the Evangelization of Peoples under John Paul the second

508
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: that he was a papal nuncio, a diplomat. He was

509
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: secretary at the Congregation for Divine Worship. I was kind

510
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: of impressed by the breadth of his experience. It's kind

511
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: of remarkable, you know, because then he went back, you know,

512
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: he goes back to his neighbor, Sri Lanka. He also

513
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: speaks ten languages. Father, could Ranja be a surprise candidate?

514
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 4: He certainly could. He's a very qualified manners you've just

515
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 4: laid out, and he's served both in the Roman Curia,

516
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 4: and as a diocesan bishop, he's had experience dealing with

517
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 4: the government there. As you may remember, it's a terrorist

518
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 4: attack at Easter time about six years ago, killed people

519
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 4: at different places and churches. So yeah, I know my

520
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 4: friends of mine are very impressed with him. I've never

521
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 4: had the pleasure of meeting him, but I certainly from

522
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 4: what I know, he's a good man and he would

523
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 4: make a good pope.

524
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: Bob. He has said the Eucharist makes the church. He

525
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: brought back altar rails just last year, he forbid altar

526
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: girls in his in the parishes of his diocese. He

527
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: is all in on the reform of the reform. Does

528
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: that endear him to this college or alienate him?

529
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 2: Well, I think we'll see in the voting Raymond, where

530
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: you know, we're all kind of trying to predict their

531
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 2: future here. One of the things that struck me about him,

532
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 2: and I've been hearing this from different people, is that

533
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: we've been saying that Paroline is the one who has

534
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 2: most been in contact with the various cardinals around the world,

535
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 2: And of course that's true, but if there is a

536
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 2: second figure who's had a lot of contact for the

537
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 2: reasons that father just mentioned that he's occupied so many

538
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 2: different offices, He's done so many different things. He speaks

539
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: ten different languages, including Hebrew, which I think is an

540
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 2: amazing thing, and then of course several a couple at

541
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: least a couple of East Asian languages as well. If

542
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 2: you're looking for a global pope, for somebody who can

543
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 2: really reach out to the peripheries, I think he fits

544
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 2: the bill much better even than Parolin. He embodies it

545
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 2: and at the same time he seems to embody a

546
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: deep Orthodoxy in his understanding of the faith.

547
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about Cardinal Pierre Baptista Pizza Bala,

548
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem. He's just sixty years old,

549
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: which could hurt his candidacy. Twelve years he was the

550
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: custus of the Holy Land, that's the Franciscans who sort

551
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: of have custody of all of those shrines the Holy Site.

552
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: He offered his life recently for the Israeli hostages take

553
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: and prisoner by Hamas. How he has very close relations,

554
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: which is a tough order, with both the Israelis and

555
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: the Palestinians. Born in northern Italy, however, and he's a

556
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: biblical scholar. He's got He's very fastidious. I know this

557
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: personally about catechists actually practicing and believing the faith that

558
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: they're passing on to the young people in his diocese.

559
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: What are his chances, especially as an Italian cardinal and

560
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: offering his life for those hostages.

561
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 4: Father, I think he's an excellent chance of being elected.

562
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 4: I think he's an attractive candidate for the reasons that

563
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 4: you said.

564
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 3: The fact is that we would.

565
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 4: His first name is Pierre, which is an abbreviation of

566
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 4: Pietro so Peter Peter baptisto John the Baptist Peter Peter

567
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 4: from Jerusalem becoming the successor Peter in Rome. It has

568
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 4: a good ring to it, and no, I think he's

569
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 4: got it. He carries himself with the dignity and the uh,

570
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 4: you know, self assertiveness that's required hired to be a

571
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 4: Catholic bishop and a very troubled region. So I think

572
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 4: he would be a good match for the challenges that

573
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 4: the Roman Curia faces.

574
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: I mean the running out of money.

575
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 4: They've had, you know, kind of a reorganization which has

576
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 4: really caused some disorganizations. So there are a lot of

577
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 4: things needing to be done. I think he'd be a

578
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 4: man at age sixty with the energy and the knowledge

579
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 4: to do it.

580
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,959
Speaker 1: Now. I heard his name being whispered about by different

581
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: groups of people, not only you know, traditional cardinals, but

582
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: those who are new to this game and just arrived. Bob,

583
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: I see Pitzebola as a compromise candidate. I mean, he's

584
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: dealt with eighteen different religious congregations in the Holy Land

585
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: who are very vocal. But the most interesting thing that

586
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: I don't think gets enough attention. And I know that

587
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: he and I served on a board for twenty five

588
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: years together, so I've known him a long time. He

589
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: brought financial solvency to a university in the Holy Land

590
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: that had been bleeding money, and he's been in the

591
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: Holy Land for thirty five years. I'm also told the

592
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: Gaza experience changed him a great deal deep into his faith.

593
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: But he's very rooted in the Gospel and a man

594
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: of prayer.

595
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 2: Your thoughts, You know, I just wrote a book about

596
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 2: the twenty first century martyrs, and I have a couple

597
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 2: of stories about him in that book.

598
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 3: One of the.

599
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 2: Things that he said when he first got to the

600
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,479
Speaker 2: Holy Land, and I think when he took over as

601
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 2: custos for the Franciscans. He was told by the Israelis

602
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 2: that people would spit on him if he wore a

603
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 2: cassock as he walked around Jerusalem, and instead of saying, oh, okay,

604
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 2: I won't wear a Kazakh, he said, no, you know,

605
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 2: we're not going to accept that. And when sort of

606
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 2: extreme Zionists have actually attacked Catholic monasteries and whatnot in

607
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: the Holy Land, he's been forceful in protecting our people

608
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 2: as much as he's been an advocate for the Palestinians

609
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 2: in Gaza. So look, he's a It would be a

610
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: surprise candidacy for an Italian coming from Jerusalem to kind

611
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 2: of catch fire. But at this moment, when we don't

612
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: really have I think we can say that, especially if

613
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 2: things go beyond the first day or two in the voting,

614
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 2: I think that all bets are off, and he's come

615
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 2: off so beautifully in that situation in the Middle East,

616
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 2: in Israel and Palestine. I think everyone globally looks at

617
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 2: him as a man of courage who offered his own

618
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 2: body to for those children who were being.

619
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 3: Held by Hamas.

620
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 2: You don't often hear of a thing like that. Happening,

621
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 2: and I think that's made him a global figure.

622
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: He also has a reverence for Pope Urban, who established

623
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: the feast of Corpus CHRISTI and Father Jerry and I

624
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: were with Father Roger Landry, and he reminded us the

625
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: last patriarch of Jerusalem who was made pope in twelve

626
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: sixty one was Pope Urban the fourth. So it's very

627
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: interesting that you know this that connection, So we'll see.

628
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: He also he offers the Mass in Hebrew, and I'm

629
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: told by some of the friars there are Jewish rabbis

630
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: who come and sit in the back and listen to

631
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: him because his Hebrew is so great. So we'll see

632
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: if that has any linkage. He believes Jerusalem is the

633
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: same the Church. It would be interesting if he sat

634
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: at the center of the church in Rome as well.

635
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: What about an American As we wrap up, we keep

636
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: hearing rumblings of Dolan. Robert Prevost, who's a sixty nine

637
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: year old Chicago native, served as an Augustinian in Peru

638
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: and then Chicago and back again. In twenty twenty two,

639
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: there was a case of two priest molesting girls there

640
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: in Peru. Critics say he failed to properly investigate those cases,

641
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 1: and the diocese paid the girls off. Follow your thoughts

642
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: on his candidacy, Robert Prevost.

643
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's now the prefect of the Dicastery for naming Bishops,

644
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 4: so he hasn't give an important role by Pope Francis. Obviously,

645
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 4: Poe Francis had a lot of confidence in him. I

646
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 4: think he would represent a continuity candidate with Pope Francis,

647
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 4: so it's possible. But I'm as even though I love

648
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 4: my own country in the United States, citizen and American

649
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 4: one hundred percent, I'm doubtful that in our day and age,

650
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 4: an American who good elected pope.

651
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 3: You know, I just don't think.

652
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 4: People are ready for us to be the top of

653
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 4: the list on the church, Bob.

654
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: He also appointed a lot of that dicaster of bishops

655
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 1: he was in charge of, appointed a lot of progressive

656
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,359
Speaker 1: bishops and promoted them over the last few years.

657
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 2: Does that hurt him, Well, it will hurt him a

658
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 2: lot with people who didn't like that sort of thing,

659
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: of course. But the wild card in this is that

660
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 2: in the position that he was as the head of

661
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 2: that Dicastria for naming Bishops, he has a lot of

662
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 2: contact with people who are naming future leaders in the church.

663
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 2: So how that will play out, I don't know, But

664
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 2: he doesn't seem to me to be.

665
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 3: A strong candidate.

666
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 2: And that scandal that you talked about, it's about the

667
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 2: only thing that I think people generally have heard about him,

668
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 2: and for me, I think that that will probably sink him.

669
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: Father, Jerry, the most surprising thing you've heard today? And

670
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 1: then I'll go to Bob.

671
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 4: Well, I guess you know, I've heard more good things

672
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 4: about Carl Pitzavalla that I didn't know, and that's really

673
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,439
Speaker 4: inspiring because I kind of think he might walk out

674
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 4: on that loajo as our new pope.

675
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: Bob, the most surprising thing you've heard over the last

676
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: few days.

677
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 2: Well, you know, we've talked a lot about how the

678
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: cardinals don't know one another.

679
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 3: But the more and.

680
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 2: More we dig into these people, they're remarkable. Many of

681
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 2: them have had amazing achievements. It's a church spread all

682
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:31,240
Speaker 2: over the world, and maybe it isn't quite the cardinal

683
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 2: the college of Cardinals that we've had in the past.

684
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 3: But I'm impressed by these guys.

685
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 2: And so there are a number of different people, some

686
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 2: obviously I prefer over others, but we could get a

687
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 2: very very interesting new pope out of this group.

688
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, let us pray. Are you looking for financial management

689
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 1: that reflects your deepest values? Taylor for Gone Capital Management

690
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:57,760
Speaker 1: actively manages portfolios designed for those who prioritize faith, family,

691
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: and long term stewardship through out their mutual fund, separately

692
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 1: managed accounts, or family office accounts. Taylor for Gone Capital

693
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: values driven investing to support your faith, family and finances.

694
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 1: There at Taylorfogne dot com. As the cardinals set about

695
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: the business of selecting the new pope, where is the

696
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: church now? Every pope leaves unfinished business. Let's talk for

697
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 1: a moment, Jens, I mean John Paul was an apostle

698
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: who traveled the whole world. He wasn't much of an administrator.

699
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 1: How will Francis's papacy, his record shape the man we're

700
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 1: about to watch be elected Pope? Bob will start with you.

701
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 2: Well, I hope it would, at least at the beginning,

702
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,879
Speaker 2: cause the cardinals who are about to elect this man

703
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 2: to reflect very carefully about their most recent choice. Because

704
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 2: we obviously, with the Pope Benedict, we got a theologian,

705
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 2: I mean a world class theologian.

706
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 3: Who will be read for centuries.

707
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 2: With Francis, what the cardinals thought they were getting was

708
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 2: a reformer. That was the term that was often used

709
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 2: about it, and in fact, the first biography by Austin

710
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 2: Ivory was called The Great Reformer. Yeah, well, we still

711
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 2: have with us a lot of unfinished business and financial matters,

712
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,720
Speaker 2: the matters of sexual abuse and order within the church.

713
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 2: So if you think about what the next leader of

714
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 2: the church ought to be, of course he ought to

715
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 2: be a spiritual man, a follower, a close follower of

716
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, but somebody who can carry out those other

717
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 2: functions that are sort of governing functions. They're not just

718
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 2: theological and spiritual matters. The church is badly in need

719
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 2: of a rudder right now, and it needs one that

720
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 2: is conceptual, but I think it's one that's also practical.

721
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: Father Bob touched on it. I remember those years ago

722
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: when twelve years ago, when Pope Francis was elected, and

723
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 1: even Cardinal George pell and others said, this is going

724
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: to be a financial reformer. He'll bring an end to

725
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: the sexual abuse in the church, to reform the couria,

726
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 1: the bureaucracy of the government. Here has he achieved those things?

727
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: Let's start there.

728
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 4: He did some things to effect change, but in the

729
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 4: end nothing really happened in terms of change and improvement.

730
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 4: He appointed Cardinal Pell to be in charge of the

731
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 4: Secretariat of the Economy as it's called. It's a new

732
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 4: department in the Vatican, and they on earthed and found

733
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 4: many assets money that was being held by individual departments

734
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 4: in the Vatican, which is the way they used to

735
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 4: do it. Cardinal Pell wanted to centralize everything. He wanted

736
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 4: to centralize investments so that they could make money on this.

737
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 4: He also wanted to reform how Vatican assets such as

738
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 4: rental properties were dealt with, and stepped on a lot

739
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 4: of toes and the Pope didn't back Pell, so that

740
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 4: all went to the wayside. Sex abuse. The Pope said

741
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 4: zero tolerance, but then notoriously tolerated Bishops Anketta, who was

742
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 4: convicted by an Argentine court of abusing seminary. He's protected

743
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 4: Father Rupnik, who was thrown out of the Jesuits, and

744
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 4: he's been accused by many many nuns of having committed

745
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 4: sex abuse in his capacity as their spiritual director. So

746
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 4: there are lots of contradictions. He did issue a reform

747
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 4: of the Roman curia, but in my opinion, made it

748
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 4: more bureaucratic and less gospel or reflective. So I think

749
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 4: it's an unfinished agenda, but it remains very much an

750
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 4: agenda needing to be done.

751
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: One of the things that again this episode sort of

752
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: focused on the factors that will shape the choice of

753
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,919
Speaker 1: the next pope. How much of that do you think

754
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,720
Speaker 1: will factor in the finances, the sex abuse, and the bureaucracy.

755
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 1: That is really well, our colleague get pent and told

756
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 1: us today he ran into somebody's Vatican employee. He said,

757
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: how do you feel with Pope France has gone? And

758
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 1: the man told him free, I feel free. That tells

759
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:57,879
Speaker 1: us a lot, Bob. How much will all that play

760
00:40:57,880 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: in the minds of these electors.

761
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,280
Speaker 2: Well, we could hope that it will play a lot

762
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,320
Speaker 2: in their minds, But as we've said in other places

763
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 2: during the course of covering this papacy, it's not clear

764
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 2: that the cardinals who are going to have to make

765
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 2: the decision or as aware of the challenges facing the

766
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 2: church as say people like us are follow it on

767
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 2: a regular basis. Now, they can't help but be aware

768
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 2: of the financial problem because that's been announced that you know,

769
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 2: it has a huge, huge deficit in terms of the

770
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 2: retirement funds for the Vatican employees. The Peters pencils is

771
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 2: very much down. You can see that they're trying to

772
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:40,399
Speaker 2: use every possibility during this jubilee year of collecting six

773
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 2: zeros here, seven euros there, because it's just the operating

774
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 2: fund is also very far down.

775
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 1: And they were all briefed on this the other day

776
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 1: in their private meeting. We should tell people.

777
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 2: Now, you know, I think that you know, a reasonably

778
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 2: responsible human being is going to take that very seriously.

779
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 2: Because that the Vatican is not able to operate, all

780
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 2: the other things start to be put in jeopardy.

781
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 3: The business with the cleaning.

782
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 2: Up of the sexual matters.

783
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 3: I don't know how much they know about that.

784
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 2: Maybe they think that the documents themselves have resolved this,

785
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 2: but there's a lot to be done on a practical nature.

786
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 2: As I said earlier, that the next pope is really

787
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 2: going to have to implement a zero tolerance. We heard

788
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 2: a lot about zero tolerance, but in fact there are

789
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 2: special deals. There's kind of what people call in the

790
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 2: secular world two tiered policing. People at the lower level

791
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 2: are slapped with fines and with penalties, and then people

792
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 2: like Rupnik, who's a famous artist, Father Marco Rupnik goes

793
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 2: on as merry way. So look, there's much to be

794
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 2: done here, and let's hope that these people look very

795
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 2: very closely at those questions.

796
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: Father, your thoughts on this? How large will these issues

797
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 1: loom in the minds of these cardinals? What we're hearing

798
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,959
Speaker 1: this week? You know, we spoke to cardinal, we spoke

799
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: to others. There seems to be a sentimentality almost in

800
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 1: these in these meetings where they keep harkening back to

801
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 1: some imagined, synotal fantasy land that Pope Frances envisioned or

802
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 1: was about to implement. Speak to all of that.

803
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I think the Bob is right. These things

804
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 4: are important, and they would seem to indicate we need

805
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 4: a pope who has some managerial experience, but even more

806
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 4: than that, who has a backbone and is able to

807
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 4: make decisions. We know, I know a lot of smart

808
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 4: people who can analyze a problem, but if you told

809
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 4: them time to solve it, they would you run out

810
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 4: of the room and they say, that's not my job.

811
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 4: I'm here just to observe. Now we need somebody who's

812
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 4: not an observer on what's happening in the Vatican. In

813
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 4: the Church and the other hand, the job description of

814
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 4: the pope is not primarily management. It's primarily preaching the

815
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 4: Gospel and guiding the flock. So you know, guiding the

816
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 4: flock means governing. It means using the pastoral staff to

817
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,320
Speaker 4: guide the flock to go to this pasture and avoid

818
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 4: that rocky ground. So that means teaching the truth and

819
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,919
Speaker 4: enforcing the doctrinal limitations in the church. You know, part

820
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 4: of the problem and this pontificate is that people who

821
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 4: contradicted the teaching of the Church were put forward. The

822
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 4: way you destroy, for instance, a naval ship has not

823
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 4: simply just put an exo set missile through the side

824
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 4: of it. It's to have the crew abandon ship by

825
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 4: not knowing what their jobs are, not wanting to do them.

826
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 4: And I think the same thing applies in the church.

827
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 4: We have to reinstall confidence in the Church's mission.

828
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: Well look in the coming days. And part of the

829
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 1: reason I wanted to do this series is because I

830
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: want people to have a realistic vision of what's actually

831
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 1: happening here in Rome and many people think, well, it's

832
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: the conclave, that's when everything happens. They go into the

833
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: Cystine Chapel, they're locked away, and there'll be time for that.

834
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 1: But we know the real business of this conclave choosing

835
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: a pope, has already begun, and that's during these general

836
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: Congregation meetings, when these cardinals come together one hundred and

837
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 1: thirty three the electors gathered here. Bob speak to how

838
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 1: well these men know each other, and how their ignorance

839
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: of one another, as well as their ignorance of the

840
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: dioceses that these men have control over or dominion over,

841
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: how that will influence the ultimate selection here.

842
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 2: You know a lot of people are worried that because

843
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 2: Pope Francis appointed so many of the electors, that it's

844
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 2: going to be following directly in his line. And of

845
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 2: course some other people that he appointed are very very

846
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 2: close to what he tried to do with his papacy.

847
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 2: The other is the ones that we talk about coming

848
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,280
Speaker 2: from the peripheries. They're much more of a wild card.

849
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 2: If you're from you're a cardinal in Mongolia, where there

850
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 2: are five thousand Catholics, and you just got appointed because

851
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 2: the Holy Father happened to see you last week and

852
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 2: he liked here, or you're from Tongar, you're from one

853
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 2: of these other small countries. That really changes things in

854
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 2: the way that you don't really know the other people.

855
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 2: You haven't been involved in working at the level with

856
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 2: other cardinals on stuff within the church or maybe international

857
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 2: affairs or political matters. So they've got to get to

858
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 2: know one another in these basically seven days, ten days,

859
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 2: twig whatever it is between now and the time they

860
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,240
Speaker 2: have to start voting. And that's really not the best

861
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 2: circumstances in which to get to know somebody, because everybody

862
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 2: is sort of eyeing one another. It's like a pressure cooker.

863
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 2: I mean, the spirit involves itself in these decisions, but

864
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: you really very quickly have to kind of get a

865
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 2: sense of who it is around me, who looks popular,

866
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 2: and you know what kind of things are they pushing?

867
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 2: You know, can I rely on them to deliver on

868
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 2: the things that they're saying that they're going to do.

869
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 2: To do this in just a matter of a few

870
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 2: days or even a week or so, it's not the

871
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 2: best circumstances, but let's just hope that the process goes

872
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 2: as well as it possibly can, given what it's been

873
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 2: built up to over the last dozen years.

874
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: And father, I'll ask you to expand on that. And

875
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: over the last few years, really decades, we've seen these conclicts.

876
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 1: The business really happens in small dinners, gatherings in all

877
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,879
Speaker 1: the little borgos around the Vatican and all over Rome,

878
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 1: where these cardinals meet each other around the table or

879
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,399
Speaker 1: in an intimate setting, and we're talking five or six

880
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 1: of them, and that's where you really get an exchange

881
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 1: of ideas and alliances start to shift. Speak to that.

882
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, everybody in life knows work is important,

883
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,839
Speaker 4: but socializing is very important, you know what I mean?

884
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 4: And noother it's one thing that's going to the boss's

885
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,240
Speaker 4: office and the boss that here your task, go away,

886
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 4: and then go to the lunch room or the water

887
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 4: cool and say, well, how does this place operate? And

888
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 4: what am I supposed to do? And I think a

889
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 4: lot of the college of cardinals, you know, Number one,

890
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 4: they saw the Pope rarely because they were rarely called

891
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 4: to Rome. And then secondly they then don't know each

892
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,720
Speaker 4: other because the Pope did not like having these general

893
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 4: meetings of cardinals. And why not, Well, the reason was

894
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 4: that they had one at the beginning of the pontific

895
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 4: and in which some of the cardinals told the Pope

896
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 4: they didn't agree with the pope so like is so

897
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 4: you know it really the Pope had the idea. Is

898
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 4: sad to say that. You know, it's like meeting the

899
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 4: Queen of England. You're there to listen, not to talk

900
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 4: unless the queen asked you to talk. And I think

901
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 4: with the Pope he wanted to kind of go in

902
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 4: a direction. The issue back then was communion for divorce

903
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 4: and remarried, and there were contradictions by other cardinals, which

904
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 4: I think is healthy and good. And you know, by

905
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 4: the way Benedict and johnpoll the second had a much

906
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 4: more open style of these cardinal meetings, but no Bob.

907
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 4: Back to Bob's point, this is where things are going

908
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,319
Speaker 4: to happen, where people are going to listen to each

909
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 4: other for the first time and kind of judge a man.

910
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 4: The old system had had a lot of virtues. The

911
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 4: people who became cardinals the old system, with those who

912
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 4: worked in the Roman curia for a long time, or

913
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 4: those who rose to become archbishops of big diocese, you

914
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,439
Speaker 4: occasionally had nun CEOs and ambassadors, but they were also

915
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 4: kind of Roman hands. So he had the people whose

916
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 4: talents were visible because they were the archery of New York, Paris,

917
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,919
Speaker 4: La Berlin, Madrid and Lisbon. And then you had people

918
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 4: who knew how the Vatican work. Now, the Vatican basically

919
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 4: has been kind of like in a stutter step motion,

920
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 4: you know, go here one day, go there the next.

921
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 4: The Archbishop of Paris won't be here because he's not

922
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 4: a cardinal, the Archbision of Los Angeles won't be here

923
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 4: because he's not a card and same with Baltimore. So

924
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 4: we deal with the people that we have, and there

925
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 4: are good men there, but you know, getting to know

926
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 4: them is going.

927
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 3: To be tough.

928
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 4: I hope there's a lot of that socializing time.

929
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's lean into that for a minute, Bob.

930
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 1: Do you think Cardinal Paroline, the Secretary of State, has

931
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 1: emerged as one of the candidates. You saw him almost

932
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: pushing his own candidacy the other day. He gave a homily.

933
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 1: He wore Pup Francis's miter that he had worn at

934
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: a youth gathering and then tried to you know, inspire

935
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: and I think connect with the young people. It didn't

936
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 1: go so well. But is that a strike against him

937
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: that he worked in the Vatican so long or do

938
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 1: you think these men from the peripheries, from the outer banks,

939
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,320
Speaker 1: if you will, of the church, they're looking for somebody

940
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 1: who knows the score and can run things here in Rome.

941
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 2: Well, I've been living in Washington, d C. For the

942
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 2: last thirty years, so if I may use a Washington term,

943
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 2: some may fear a swamp creature. There's the problem of

944
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 2: people who have gone native and they're really part of

945
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:31,840
Speaker 2: a bureaucracy rather than an evangelizing church that looks outside.

946
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:36,359
Speaker 2: And I think sometimes that's overplayed, although there certainly are

947
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,879
Speaker 2: some monseignori who swam around.

948
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 3: Here in.

949
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 1: Rome.

950
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 2: Look, it goes both ways, I suppose, as we were

951
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 2: saying earlier, basically the role of a bishop or of

952
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 2: a pope is to teach number one.

953
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:54,839
Speaker 3: To sanctify and to cover.

954
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 2: And you know, we're all looking for that strange unicorn

955
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 2: figure who's going to have all those capabilities in excess.

956
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: By Cardinal Dolan saying we want John Pohl, we want

957
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 1: Benedict's rigor, and we want Pope Francis's heart, Well, those

958
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 1: are three different people. It's kind of a hard mix.

959
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 2: Just before he died, Cardinal pell and I were having

960
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 2: lunch and I said to him, you know, you've been

961
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 2: very close to the Holy Father. Is he just being

962
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 2: deceived on some of these matters by the people around him?

963
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 2: And he said to me, oh, Robert, he said, he

964
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 2: has been a bishop and an archbishop and now a

965
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 2: cardinal and a pope for many years, and so he

966
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:37,439
Speaker 2: ought to be aware that people around him may try

967
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 2: to do certain things.

968
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:39,399
Speaker 3: Maybe they do, and.

969
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 2: They fool him sometimes, but that's certainly that kind of

970
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 2: experience is something you can't entirely dispense with. A person

971
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 2: who's had to run a large organization, could be a

972
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:54,320
Speaker 2: religious order, it might be some a monastery or something.

973
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 3: But I think that that's.

974
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 2: An important feature that I myself am going to be

975
00:51:59,280 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 2: looking out.

976
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:04,440
Speaker 1: For a people person so who and that doesn't mean

977
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 1: going out to the strangers, but working with people in

978
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: an organization in harmony. That is a big and important

979
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 1: task for any pope because you drop into this bureaucracy

980
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 1: here and you almost have to turn it to your

981
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 1: own designs. The first rule of thumb, and we should

982
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 1: I say this for everybody watching. The first rule of

983
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 1: thumb of interpreting these conclaves and the lead up to them.

984
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 1: This is a battle of narratives. Right now, you heard

985
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 1: Cardinal Giovanni Battista Ray at the funeral of the Pope

986
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: try to urge for the continuation of Francis's agenda. The

987
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,240
Speaker 1: previous pope always has a great influence, is a major

988
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 1: factor on whoever the next man will be, usually because

989
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: the cardinals want to change course from what was, or

990
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 1: adjust or refine, but inevitably what the pope prior shapes

991
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 1: the pope to come. And the media has depicted Francis

992
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,800
Speaker 1: as the people's Pope. It reminds me of Cardinal Walter

993
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:04,360
Speaker 1: Asper who described Francis's theology as the people's theology. So

994
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 1: the problem is at times that theology ignored Catholic theology. Father,

995
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 1: tell me about the elements of doctrine, How doctrine and

996
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: style will shape the cardinal's decisions here and how Francis's

997
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:24,320
Speaker 1: example influences their votes.

998
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, doctrine is the basis of unity in the church,

999
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 4: because doctrine means teaching. Teaching leads to belief. So what

1000
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 4: do we believe in in common. Not every Catholic Maths

1001
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 4: and Sunday you preach, everybody prays out loud the creed,

1002
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,239
Speaker 4: they say it all together. The reason is that's what

1003
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:45,439
Speaker 4: unites us in faith. The content of doctrine is what

1004
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 4: things do we accept as true and what things do

1005
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 4: we reject as false? Though that's very important because if

1006
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 4: an organization doesn't have a clear notion of what it

1007
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:58,799
Speaker 4: believes in, then it's a drift and sad to say.

1008
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 4: In the last Pontificate, things that we took for granted

1009
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 4: that had been taught directly by Jump all the Second

1010
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 4: and Benedict were contradicted and ignored and even overturned. And

1011
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 4: they were sexuality issues and the death penalty or all

1012
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 4: religions sent to us by God. These questions had been answered,

1013
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 4: but they were reopened and the new answer wasn't good.

1014
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 4: So we have to have a pope was willing to

1015
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 4: say the unity of faith is not the kumbay. Everybody's

1016
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 4: in the room smiling at each other, you know, one

1017
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 4: of the tropes of the pontagic. Let's all walk together.

1018
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 4: So the big question is, well, where are we going

1019
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 4: and what are we supposed to talk about on.

1020
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 1: The way you know, and the Apostles.

1021
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then also who gets in line, who's able

1022
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 4: to walk, and who's pushed aside and said no, you're

1023
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,800
Speaker 4: not on the path with us. And the real image

1024
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 4: of the church is Jesus on the mount giving the

1025
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 4: beatitude sermon. You know, everybody was listening. Jesus was the center,

1026
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 4: and we took it in and then tried to apply it.

1027
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 4: I think the next pope is going to hopefully embrace

1028
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 4: that role and say before I say I want everybody

1029
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 4: to love each other, I have to say I want

1030
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,359
Speaker 4: everybody to believe that they have to love each other,

1031
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 4: and that love is not auto created by men men,

1032
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 4: it's given to what the rules come from God. In

1033
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 4: other words, what does love really mean living God's law?

1034
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:21,839
Speaker 1: Well, for those non Catholics looking, and we'll get into

1035
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:25,879
Speaker 1: more of this and subsequent episodes, but the papacy, the

1036
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:30,879
Speaker 1: pope is nothing more than the successor of Saint Peter,

1037
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 1: that first Apostle. So it's an amazing thing to watch

1038
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:39,360
Speaker 1: happen because like the Apostles chose someone to fill Judas's

1039
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 1: spot among the twelve, so through time they've come together

1040
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 1: and chosen someone to fill Peter spot and that continuous,

1041
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: unbroken chain of two thousand plus years. I mean, Bob,

1042
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 1: you know, we get into the weeds so deep on

1043
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 1: this we sometimes forget the grandeur of an importance of

1044
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:00,840
Speaker 1: what this is. This is the vicar of Christ, the

1045
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:04,439
Speaker 1: first Apostle and his successor. I mean, that's what he's

1046
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 1: charged with. Now, there have been spectacular flameouts, Borgier popes

1047
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 1: and horrible nightmares, but they didn't change doctrine. Pope Francis

1048
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 1: attempted to shift the doctrine around a bit, or at

1049
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 1: least the practice of it. I'll let you have the floor.

1050
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1051
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 2: At the same time, though, I would encourage people who

1052
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 2: are watching or listening not to get to apocalyptic about this.

1053
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 2: I never tire of quoting a line from the American

1054
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:36,239
Speaker 2: modernist poet Ezra Pound, who said that any institution that

1055
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 2: could survive the picturesqueness of the Borges has a certain

1056
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 2: native resilience. And our Lord and our Lord told us

1057
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:47,320
Speaker 2: that the gates of Hell.

1058
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 3: Shall not prevail against the Church.

1059
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 2: So look, you know, I've got children and grandchildren, so

1060
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:56,919
Speaker 2: I'm immediately concerned about the next two or three generations,

1061
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 2: and I pray to God that they don't have to

1062
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,879
Speaker 2: live with the church that's weekend or has lost its way,

1063
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 2: or I mean, we all need the church to be

1064
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:06,800
Speaker 2: the church. But at the same time, I think we

1065
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:11,360
Speaker 2: help a great deal if we maintain that confidence in

1066
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 2: ourselves that ultimately the Lord is in charge. We men

1067
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 2: try to mess up everything, including the Church, but he's

1068
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 2: in charge, and he knows that he tried to redeem

1069
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 2: us on the cross, and he has put in motions

1070
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 2: something that you rightly say has lasted over two thousand years,

1071
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 2: which in human terms is almost a miracle in itself.

1072
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 2: So we also worry over the next few days, next

1073
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 2: few weeks, perhaps as this election goes forward, but with

1074
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 2: a certain confidence in the Lord.

1075
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, Pope Benedict said famously I posted it

1076
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 1: on social media recently, Father that the Holy Spirit doesn't

1077
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 1: select the pope. The Holy Spirit guides and inspires. The

1078
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 1: Holy Spirit's presence is a confidence in the fact that

1079
00:57:56,360 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 1: they can't mess it up. That's what basically he's said,

1080
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 1: And I think there's a lot of wisdom there. People

1081
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 1: think the Holy Spirit comes down like a double on

1082
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 1: the heads of these one hundred and thirty plus men,

1083
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 1: and that their little machines that vote like the Holy

1084
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 1: Spirit not necessarily.

1085
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 4: No, the Catholic churche never taught that the Holy Spirit

1086
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 4: directly inspired the people who voted for the man who

1087
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 4: ends up being the next pope. What we say is

1088
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 4: that the cardinals elect the pope, and then you only

1089
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 4: become pope when you say I accept this election. So

1090
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 4: it's a free choice matter on both sides, the ones

1091
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 4: picking and the one accepting, so free choices. You know,

1092
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 4: God loves us so much he gave us free choice

1093
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:41,400
Speaker 4: and free will. Now, of course, the quality of the

1094
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 4: candidates depends on who's in the College of Cardinals. They're

1095
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:48,680
Speaker 4: all chosen by the pope. The quality of their deliberations

1096
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:51,480
Speaker 4: is how much attention do they pay to what their

1097
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 4: job the job description of the pope is, And if

1098
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:56,360
Speaker 4: they disagree on what the job description is, then you

1099
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 4: can have some problems. But you know, the secret role

1100
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 4: people praying for others comes forward in this type of activity.

1101
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 4: We need to pray for those cardinals.

1102
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 1: I want to talk about something it's kind of hard

1103
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 1: to talk about because I've just run into some people

1104
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 1: in recent days who reminded me of this, including a

1105
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:18,600
Speaker 1: bishop who was recently script of his title, forced to

1106
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:22,320
Speaker 1: resign frankly just days before the Pope went to the hospital.

1107
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 1: And this was a bishop who had done nothing wrong

1108
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 1: except he had huge numbers of seminarians. I'll just say

1109
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:31,959
Speaker 1: it is Bishop Ray of France. He had huge number

1110
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:34,920
Speaker 1: of seminarians, but they were traditionally minded, and he was

1111
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 1: a traditional bishop, and that attracted young men to the priesthood.

1112
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:41,960
Speaker 1: And he was sort of punished for that, sidelined for it,

1113
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 1: and driven out of his post. There was an authoritarian

1114
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 1: streak in Pope Francis that he recognized when he was

1115
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 1: running the Jesuits. He said, you know, coming out of

1116
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 1: that experience, after crushing a lot of toasts, he said,

1117
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 1: I have an authoritarian you know, default that I have

1118
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: to be rid of. Well, it's apparent he never really

1119
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:05,080
Speaker 1: got rid of it. Talk to me about that, Bob,

1120
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:08,800
Speaker 1: and how that could be a sleeper factor here, because

1121
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 1: many of those men in the Roman Couria, even if

1122
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 1: they loved Pope Francis and agreed with him ideologically, they

1123
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 1: did suffer the whims his whimsical nature where he would

1124
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,560
Speaker 1: flip on a dime and say no to something he

1125
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 1: just said yes to, and they were subjected to that

1126
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 1: sort of thing regularly.

1127
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I remember very early on, I'm sure both

1128
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 2: of you do too, that it wasn't only a matter

1129
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 2: of people feeling if they were precarious because the kid

1130
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 2: get fired and many were for getting.

1131
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:40,440
Speaker 3: Crosswires with the Pope.

1132
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:42,640
Speaker 2: They also felt that they didn't know what they were

1133
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 2: supposed to do. And you know, that's one of the

1134
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:50,520
Speaker 2: other consequences of unclear teaching or unclear governance, that if

1135
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 2: you step out too far in one direction, now you

1136
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 2: find out that the boss has actually changed what he

1137
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 2: hopes is going to happen.

1138
01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:57,680
Speaker 3: Now you look like you're opposing him.

1139
01:00:57,720 --> 01:01:01,440
Speaker 2: And these changes happened very very quickly, you know, And

1140
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:04,160
Speaker 2: we can even look back toward the beginning. A lot

1141
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 2: of this has sort of become ancient history because of

1142
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 2: the image that the Holy Father had of being this

1143
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:12,920
Speaker 2: sort of gentle grandfather type. You remember when the Sire

1144
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:16,480
Speaker 2: Book came out the dictator Pope very early on in

1145
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 2: the pontificate, and that was sparked by the way that

1146
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:21,560
Speaker 2: he man handled and I think that's not so too

1147
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:25,959
Speaker 2: strong a term. The Knights of Malta, where Cardinal Burke

1148
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 2: was bounced out of there. Some other people came and

1149
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:33,600
Speaker 2: left very quickly, and Malta was like an independently recognized

1150
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:37,520
Speaker 2: almost nation. And that was that was an early sign

1151
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:40,880
Speaker 2: and when we saw it develop that. On the one hand, yes,

1152
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:45,800
Speaker 2: he had he presented this very gentle, caring, merciful character

1153
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 2: and a lot of people who attested to that. But

1154
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 2: he also had the iron fist and the velvet glove

1155
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:53,440
Speaker 2: whenever it came to something you really wanted to get done.

1156
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 2: I won't speak to Canon long because we got the

1157
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 2: Canon lawyer here, but obviously a lot, a lot of

1158
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:00,520
Speaker 2: that stuff just broke the bounds of what might be

1159
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:02,600
Speaker 2: called legal within the caste.

1160
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:06,440
Speaker 1: Father speak to that. I mean, not only the knights

1161
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 1: of Malta. Opus Day was opened up and rediscovered. He

1162
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:16,480
Speaker 1: shut down conservative traditional Latin Rite communities because they were

1163
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:19,880
Speaker 1: too devotional, an old school which he didn't care for.

1164
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 1: Cardinal Pell, who was only doing his bidding. Cardinal Pell

1165
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 1: was charged with finding all the hidden bank accounts and

1166
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 1: fixing the finances of the Vatican. When he did it

1167
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 1: and brought an accounting firm in, the Pope was convinced

1168
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 1: to fire that firm, and soon fire Pell. I mean

1169
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 1: it boggles the mind in many ways.

1170
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, during the pontific If, Pope France has showed that

1171
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 4: he didn't consider canon law to be a very important

1172
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:50,479
Speaker 4: part of his responsibility as pope, even though the church

1173
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 4: teaching is that pope is the lawgiver, so not only

1174
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:55,440
Speaker 4: does he give the law, he also enforces it. And

1175
01:02:55,480 --> 01:03:00,200
Speaker 4: then you know this was not done. For instance, a

1176
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,720
Speaker 4: couple of bishops were removed, one in Puerto Rico Daniel Fernandez,

1177
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:06,320
Speaker 4: we had Bishop Strickland in the United States. They were

1178
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 4: removed without proper canonical process, and decrees enunciating why they

1179
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:16,320
Speaker 4: were removed were never issued. Because in canon law, if

1180
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 4: you're accused of committing an offense that would merit some

1181
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 4: form of punishment, you have a right to self defense.

1182
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:26,520
Speaker 4: So the right to self defense includes you're informed of

1183
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 4: the charge, you're giving the evidence behind the charge, and

1184
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 4: then you were able to respond to that evidence, produce

1185
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:34,920
Speaker 4: your own evidence, and then there's a hearing so that

1186
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 4: the independent judgment can be rendered. And none of that happened.

1187
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 4: You know, Bishop Strickland was called in Nuncio's office and

1188
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:45,440
Speaker 4: get told these are the reasons why you can't be

1189
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:49,600
Speaker 4: bishop anymore, and he never heard anything more.

1190
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 1: You know, he just was out. But how cognizant do

1191
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 1: you think the cardinal's gathering just a few blocks from

1192
01:03:55,600 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 1: where we are, How cognizant are they of this? Why widespread,

1193
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 1: if you will, cleansing and firing of people that the

1194
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:08,560
Speaker 1: Pope just disagreed with. But they've done nothing wrong. They

1195
01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 1: were good men otherwise.

1196
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there's general knowledge that sutly affected Cardinal Burke.

1197
01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 4: You know, he was denied his salary and his subsidized apartment,

1198
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:19,480
Speaker 4: which are given to all cardinals because they work for

1199
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:22,320
Speaker 4: the Church and the Roman Curia and the Holy See.

1200
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 4: They're aware of it. I think they were uncomfortable with it.

1201
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:29,760
Speaker 4: So I hope and pray that in their deliberations they

1202
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:33,120
Speaker 4: identified whatever man is a chosen and accepts the election

1203
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:37,400
Speaker 4: cannot continue to act arbitrarily and ignore canon law because

1204
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:39,920
Speaker 4: people think canon law just a bunch of rules to

1205
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:43,400
Speaker 4: make people unhappy and restrict their freedom. No, a lot

1206
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:46,040
Speaker 4: of other things that make people unhappy and restrict their freedom,

1207
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:49,040
Speaker 4: you know, how about sin and vice. But law, it

1208
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:52,440
Speaker 4: properly appride, allows everyone to have their rights respected. And

1209
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 4: if there's anything we need in the modern world to

1210
01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:56,800
Speaker 4: say people have rights. You can't say you have a

1211
01:04:56,880 --> 01:04:59,120
Speaker 4: right if it's not respected by the people in charge.

1212
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 1: Bob, what's another factor that you think we are unaware

1213
01:05:03,360 --> 01:05:06,400
Speaker 1: of or the public is unaware of, that will determine

1214
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:09,560
Speaker 1: the outcome of this papal election. Is there anything else

1215
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:11,320
Speaker 1: that you see?

1216
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:13,880
Speaker 2: Well, we are warned in the Old Testament not to

1217
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:18,760
Speaker 2: go after soothsayers and predictors in the future.

1218
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 3: Certainly be very careful of.

1219
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:22,560
Speaker 1: I'm not asking you to do that factors.

1220
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:26,480
Speaker 2: I'm not candidates, but you know, I think I've been

1221
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:28,360
Speaker 2: saying this now for a couple of years, but I

1222
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 2: really do think that the cardinals from the peripheries could

1223
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 2: be a surprise. You know, we pretty much know what

1224
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:37,640
Speaker 2: our American delegation is like. It's very much in the

1225
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 2: mccarack line and close to Pope France's. We know what

1226
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 2: the Africans are. Europeans are a little bit more of

1227
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:46,240
Speaker 2: a mixed bag. But some of the people that are

1228
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 2: farther out from the traditions with which we're familiar, they

1229
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:52,640
Speaker 2: might surprise us. I would have to think that if

1230
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:54,480
Speaker 2: there's a place that the Holy Spirit is going to

1231
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:56,760
Speaker 2: be working a little bit over time, it would have

1232
01:05:56,800 --> 01:05:58,320
Speaker 2: to be in one of that group of people because

1233
01:05:58,320 --> 01:05:59,760
Speaker 2: they're going to be learning. They're going to be our

1234
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:04,919
Speaker 2: very stiff, steep learning curve, and I think they will

1235
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:06,760
Speaker 2: want to play a role. They'll be looking at some

1236
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:09,320
Speaker 2: of the figures that they've looked up to in the

1237
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:11,880
Speaker 2: past as leaders. But I think they're going to begin

1238
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:14,880
Speaker 2: to make their own own judgments and I'm hoping that

1239
01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 2: the God of surprises is going to surprise us.

1240
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:17,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1241
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:20,960
Speaker 1: Well, you know, Pope Francis father used to always say,

1242
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:23,640
Speaker 1: well he told young people, and I think I would

1243
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:26,880
Speaker 1: argue it's the it's the key to unlock his papacy.

1244
01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:29,240
Speaker 1: He told young people, go out and make a mess.

1245
01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: God wants you to go out and make a mess,

1246
01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:35,240
Speaker 1: meaning don't you know, don't don't follow the age or

1247
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:39,320
Speaker 1: the world, go do your own thing. But in fact

1248
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 1: and in his papacy, he too went out and made

1249
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 1: a mess. What impact will that have? Do you think

1250
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:50,080
Speaker 1: the incoherence at times, the back and forth, you know,

1251
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:52,160
Speaker 1: where he says we have to go out and bless

1252
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:55,080
Speaker 1: gay unions. I want every priest to do this. Then

1253
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:57,960
Speaker 1: the Africans come back. One of the voters here, Cardinal

1254
01:06:58,040 --> 01:07:01,880
Speaker 1: Abongo from Congo comes and says, we can't accept this

1255
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:04,160
Speaker 1: on the continent of Africa. This is illegal. We'll never

1256
01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 1: accept this. So he says, okay, fine, we'll give you

1257
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:09,440
Speaker 1: a carve out, and they basically did a moral carve

1258
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 1: out for Africa. Well, why is Africa different from you know,

1259
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:18,480
Speaker 1: Manhattan or Poughkeepsie. Speak to that and how that might

1260
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 1: shape these cardinals on the peripheric.

1261
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:24,280
Speaker 4: No, this is part of the incoherence that we experienced

1262
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:26,120
Speaker 4: and that we have to call a spade a space.

1263
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:30,920
Speaker 4: It is incoherent to say Catholic teaching is X. Everybody

1264
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:33,560
Speaker 4: has to follow X. Accept the people in Africa because

1265
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:36,000
Speaker 4: they have a different notion where Catholic teaching is No.

1266
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:39,920
Speaker 4: It was a political move designed not to cause problems,

1267
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:43,080
Speaker 4: and of course they didn't want to withdraw this permission

1268
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:47,760
Speaker 4: given now for blessing homosexual couples, so they said, okay, well,

1269
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:49,280
Speaker 4: where people get upset.

1270
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 3: They don't have to do it. Well.

1271
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 4: Look, the point here, I think for the overall conclave

1272
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:58,560
Speaker 4: discussion phase is do we want to admit we have

1273
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:01,320
Speaker 4: a problem and then do something about it, or do

1274
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 4: we want to pretend everything was fine and we need

1275
01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:06,520
Speaker 4: someone who's going to continue with that line, because, of

1276
01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:08,840
Speaker 4: course Poe Francis did not admit that there was a

1277
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:11,960
Speaker 4: problem with gay blessings or community for divorce and remarried.

1278
01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:14,200
Speaker 4: He thought the problem was the people who disagree with

1279
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:17,479
Speaker 4: him on that. So much as we love the pope,

1280
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:20,040
Speaker 4: that doesn't mean we agree with everything he does when

1281
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 4: it contradicts what his predecessors did. So the cardinals have

1282
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:27,280
Speaker 4: to make a courageous decision. Will they say yes to

1283
01:08:27,360 --> 01:08:31,120
Speaker 4: the church's constant tradition and teaching, or will they say no?

1284
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:34,560
Speaker 4: What got started in the Last Manivit has to continue.

1285
01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:37,080
Speaker 4: That's the really stark choice they face.

1286
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 1: That is it? That is really the choice right there.

1287
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:42,400
Speaker 1: And the question is, Bob, are they hearing that? I

1288
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:44,759
Speaker 1: know a number of cardinals have gone into these general

1289
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:47,519
Speaker 1: meetings this week and said, brothers, we have a problem.

1290
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:50,200
Speaker 1: There's a lack of clarity, that people are confused, that

1291
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:53,080
Speaker 1: they're abandoning us because of this. We are the s.

1292
01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:57,040
Speaker 1: We are the axis Mundi, as our friend Richard Nuhaus

1293
01:08:57,160 --> 01:08:59,439
Speaker 1: used to say, this is the axis mundi upon which

1294
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:02,120
Speaker 1: the whole world turns. When you throw that off balance,

1295
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:04,720
Speaker 1: every faith is thrown off balance. Do you think they're

1296
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 1: getting that message. I'm hearing mixed things.

1297
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:11,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm hearing that as well. I think that they

1298
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:16,240
Speaker 2: are not particularly well informed about these controversies and potential

1299
01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:20,320
Speaker 2: crises that exist in the church, potential divisions. Our friend

1300
01:09:20,320 --> 01:09:22,960
Speaker 2: Cardinal Mueller has talked about the possibility of sism if

1301
01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:25,320
Speaker 2: some of these things aren't remedied, and I agree with

1302
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:28,880
Speaker 2: that absolutely entirely. And then there's just a bigger question

1303
01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 2: what is the role of the church in the world

1304
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:31,439
Speaker 2: right now?

1305
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:31,680
Speaker 1: Now?

1306
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 2: We want the church to be going out and evangelizing,

1307
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:38,840
Speaker 2: but should it be evangelizing in a way that it

1308
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:42,040
Speaker 2: entangles it in some certain political issues.

1309
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:45,200
Speaker 3: Like immigration for example. We've talked about this before on.

1310
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:49,120
Speaker 2: The show, which make it almost look like to be

1311
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:51,120
Speaker 2: a Catholic in our time is to take a certain

1312
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:55,439
Speaker 2: political stance. I think that that's the wrong thing for

1313
01:09:55,479 --> 01:09:57,640
Speaker 2: a pope to do, and in fact, I think it's

1314
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:00,960
Speaker 2: been counterproductive, not only in North America but also in

1315
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:05,000
Speaker 2: Europe that the Pope Francis harped so much on the

1316
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:09,240
Speaker 2: immigration question when everyday people are finding their communities being

1317
01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:13,680
Speaker 2: destroyed and even the rule of law being violated in

1318
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:18,360
Speaker 2: certain areas because certain groups are given preference that there's

1319
01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:21,800
Speaker 2: two tiered policing, for example, in some places. So look,

1320
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:24,120
Speaker 2: there's a lot there, and there's a lot within the church,

1321
01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:27,120
Speaker 2: and there's a lot outside. I don't have a great

1322
01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:30,400
Speaker 2: deal of confidence that these people are hearing it. I

1323
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:32,040
Speaker 2: don't have to have a great deal of confidence that

1324
01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:35,559
Speaker 2: they knew it before they arrived here. So you know,

1325
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:37,040
Speaker 2: I mentioned the steep learning curve.

1326
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 3: Let's just hope.

1327
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:41,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all you can do at the end of

1328
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:45,000
Speaker 1: the day, hope and pray, which you know, Cardinal Burke

1329
01:10:45,920 --> 01:10:48,640
Speaker 1: has launched this novena, a crusade, if you will, a

1330
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:53,240
Speaker 1: prayer to invite the Holy Spirit to work a miracle

1331
01:10:53,280 --> 01:10:58,240
Speaker 1: here and break through the consciences of these cardinals fathers.

1332
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:01,719
Speaker 1: As we wrap up, the most surprising thing you heard

1333
01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 1: or came across in the last couple of days. One

1334
01:11:05,120 --> 01:11:07,799
Speaker 1: hears and sees things here that you don't see other places.

1335
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:10,400
Speaker 1: I mean, you just come across the entirety of the church.

1336
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:12,280
Speaker 1: It's sort of the crossroads for the world.

1337
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:18,400
Speaker 4: Well, that's a hard question. I guess the most surprising

1338
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:21,120
Speaker 4: thing is that hearing the notion that there's kind of

1339
01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:26,719
Speaker 4: a resistance to candor resistance to the appeals of people

1340
01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:29,840
Speaker 4: in the College of Cardins who are dissatisfied with what

1341
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:34,080
Speaker 4: we have, because if that's the case, then we're you know,

1342
01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:38,439
Speaker 4: amnesia becomes a requisite for getting the next pope elected.

1343
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:42,880
Speaker 4: I mean, how can you pretend, with the decline in

1344
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:46,400
Speaker 4: religious practice in Europe, for instance, that we don't have

1345
01:11:46,439 --> 01:11:49,240
Speaker 4: a five alarm fire going on in the church in Europe.

1346
01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:53,320
Speaker 4: I mean we have basically a political class hostile to

1347
01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:56,080
Speaker 4: the church. People aren't going there. The ones who like

1348
01:11:56,160 --> 01:11:59,720
Speaker 4: the Latin Mass and were going were being evicted, and

1349
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:02,880
Speaker 4: we have people resigning from the church in Germany, the

1350
01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 4: vocations picture the birth Dearth. You know, all of the

1351
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:09,960
Speaker 4: problems that we have in Europe and to say that

1352
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:12,479
Speaker 4: the mission of church is fine because we're instructing people

1353
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:16,760
Speaker 4: that immigrants should be allowed in Capitalism produces death, and

1354
01:12:16,960 --> 01:12:19,679
Speaker 4: you know, we have to do everything possible we can

1355
01:12:20,160 --> 01:12:22,800
Speaker 4: not to have an environmental crisis and say to well,

1356
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 4: wait a minute, I thought religions about getting to heaven

1357
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:28,479
Speaker 4: and how to live well on earth. So I think

1358
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:31,879
Speaker 4: if the cardinals don't confront that we have a problematic situation,

1359
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:34,760
Speaker 4: then they're amnesiacs. And you know, they're not going to

1360
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:36,680
Speaker 4: be putting the right man in place. I hope that

1361
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:37,400
Speaker 4: doesn't happen.

1362
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:40,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, the most surprising thing you've heard in the

1363
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:43,200
Speaker 1: last few days, or they changed your perception of something

1364
01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:44,920
Speaker 1: you had on your way here.

1365
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:48,439
Speaker 2: Well, I can give you a precise number a cardinal

1366
01:12:48,439 --> 01:12:51,519
Speaker 2: that who I trust very much. Yeah, says he thinks

1367
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:56,080
Speaker 2: that there are only ten cardinals among the voters who

1368
01:12:56,160 --> 01:12:57,760
Speaker 2: are actually theologians.

1369
01:12:58,439 --> 01:13:00,080
Speaker 1: Wow, out of one hundred and thirty three.

1370
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:01,679
Speaker 3: Out of one hundred and thirty three.

1371
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:04,080
Speaker 2: So I don't think he meant by that, you know,

1372
01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:06,800
Speaker 2: that they were academic theologians, or that they had some

1373
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:08,720
Speaker 2: kind of specialty. I think he was just saying that,

1374
01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:13,400
Speaker 2: you know, it's good solid understanding the faith, the enormous

1375
01:13:13,439 --> 01:13:14,599
Speaker 2: tradition that we have.

1376
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:16,040
Speaker 3: You know, there's been brought forward.

1377
01:13:16,080 --> 01:13:18,920
Speaker 2: I mean, you can talk about mercy all you like,

1378
01:13:20,600 --> 01:13:24,360
Speaker 2: but the Church is says that that idea of mercy

1379
01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:29,040
Speaker 2: is informed by two thousand years a very holy geniuses

1380
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:32,439
Speaker 2: who have contributed to a tradition that enables us to

1381
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:36,400
Speaker 2: understand human beings, our relationship to one another, and our

1382
01:13:36,439 --> 01:13:39,040
Speaker 2: relationship to God. And if we don't have a rich

1383
01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:42,519
Speaker 2: understanding of that a person that is, for example, is

1384
01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:45,480
Speaker 2: not well schooled in Saint Augustine or Saint Thomas aquoiments.

1385
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:50,360
Speaker 2: You know, we're just it says tired metaphor, but we're

1386
01:13:50,479 --> 01:13:52,960
Speaker 2: arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. We're not really

1387
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:55,800
Speaker 2: getting to the place we want to get by being

1388
01:13:55,880 --> 01:13:57,920
Speaker 2: on the ship of faith.

1389
01:13:58,439 --> 01:14:03,160
Speaker 3: So that number of boy that was a surprising number

1390
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:03,320
Speaker 3: to me.

1391
01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:06,000
Speaker 1: That's troubling. And as father alluded to earlier, at a

1392
01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:09,360
Speaker 1: time when young people and we saw it over Easter

1393
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:13,519
Speaker 1: in France, in the United States, huge numbers coming to

1394
01:14:13,560 --> 01:14:16,040
Speaker 1: be baptized, and they're all young people, and a lot

1395
01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:18,040
Speaker 1: of them are guys. I've seen them. I saw them

1396
01:14:18,040 --> 01:14:21,320
Speaker 1: at old Saint Patrick's Church down in the village. You know,

1397
01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:24,000
Speaker 1: here are all these young guys coming to be baptized.

1398
01:14:24,320 --> 01:14:27,439
Speaker 1: What is driving that? And here's the real challenge for

1399
01:14:27,479 --> 01:14:31,599
Speaker 1: the cardinals. Are the young people that are coming. Are

1400
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:35,040
Speaker 1: they coming for the church you're giving them and the

1401
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:38,680
Speaker 1: church that is and was, or will they find some

1402
01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:42,240
Speaker 1: other church presented to them that they didn't sign up for.

1403
01:14:42,439 --> 01:14:45,040
Speaker 1: And that to me is the biggest concern. And if

1404
01:14:45,080 --> 01:14:47,160
Speaker 1: they were, if they're worried about the future, they should

1405
01:14:47,200 --> 01:14:48,080
Speaker 1: look to that Father.

1406
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:53,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, agreement, Raymond, exactly. You know, the enthusiasm in the

1407
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:57,960
Speaker 4: church is based on enthusiasm for the eternal truths, the

1408
01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:02,320
Speaker 4: permanent things, and then the mystic. You know, the mystery

1409
01:15:02,320 --> 01:15:05,360
Speaker 4: of life does not consist in fixing the plumbing. Plumbing

1410
01:15:05,439 --> 01:15:08,040
Speaker 4: is important, but that's not why we call a priest,

1411
01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:11,160
Speaker 4: you know. So you know, the pope's job is not

1412
01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:15,040
Speaker 4: to be chief advisor to human wellness project of the

1413
01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:16,000
Speaker 4: United Nations.

1414
01:15:16,040 --> 01:15:16,280
Speaker 3: You know.

1415
01:15:16,360 --> 01:15:19,479
Speaker 4: It has to be how do we get people to

1416
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:23,080
Speaker 4: recognize Jesus's Lord and then accept his teaching and then

1417
01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:26,479
Speaker 4: live in accordance with it. And Cardinal Sarah famously wrote

1418
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:28,599
Speaker 4: a book called God or Nothing, and I think that

1419
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:30,800
Speaker 4: really should be the motto of those going into the

1420
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:34,679
Speaker 4: Senate into the conflict. Rather, we're here to serve God.

1421
01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:36,599
Speaker 4: Otherwise nothing matters.

1422
01:15:37,040 --> 01:15:40,439
Speaker 1: Well. You also said something early on about candor and

1423
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:43,880
Speaker 1: Archbishop Charles ship Hew, formerly of Philadelphia. He wrote a

1424
01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:46,040
Speaker 1: great piece, very short piece, but he said, I have

1425
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:50,920
Speaker 1: lovely and warm memories of Pope Francis. But and interregnum,

1426
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:52,559
Speaker 1: the time between the death of the pope and the

1427
01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:56,080
Speaker 1: election of another, it's a time for candor. He said,

1428
01:15:56,520 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 1: it's a time to candidly say this is what we

1429
01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:01,800
Speaker 1: went through, and this is what we need, this is

1430
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:04,920
Speaker 1: what needs fixing. And unless the cardinals are willing to

1431
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:07,559
Speaker 1: do that, and all of us, everybody listening, and those

1432
01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:10,160
Speaker 1: of us here, unless we're willing to engage in that

1433
01:16:10,240 --> 01:16:13,639
Speaker 1: same candor I worry about the outcome here because then

1434
01:16:13,640 --> 01:16:18,000
Speaker 1: it collapses into nostalgia and you know, isn't it wonderful?

1435
01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:20,080
Speaker 1: And police pray for us all and you know, a

1436
01:16:20,160 --> 01:16:23,880
Speaker 1: sainted pope. It's just it's not reality. I'll give you

1437
01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:26,519
Speaker 1: all each the last word of what you're looking forward

1438
01:16:26,720 --> 01:16:28,960
Speaker 1: to in the week ahead. Bob will start with you.

1439
01:16:30,479 --> 01:16:31,639
Speaker 3: Well, I mentioned it earlier.

1440
01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:34,120
Speaker 2: I really hope that what we're going to see is

1441
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:37,960
Speaker 2: kind of an increasing diversity of yours.

1442
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:39,320
Speaker 3: I think is a way to look at it.

1443
01:16:39,360 --> 01:16:41,640
Speaker 2: That as people begin to know one another and they

1444
01:16:41,680 --> 01:16:44,479
Speaker 2: feel a little bit more comfortable with one another, they're

1445
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:48,639
Speaker 2: willing to venture out and raise some questions. Because we

1446
01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:50,880
Speaker 2: were all told, you know, we just mentioned these young people,

1447
01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:53,280
Speaker 2: that there was going to be a Francis effect that

1448
01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:55,639
Speaker 2: was going to draw people into the church, draw young.

1449
01:16:55,439 --> 01:16:56,879
Speaker 3: People into the church and whatnot.

1450
01:16:57,040 --> 01:17:00,760
Speaker 2: We haven't seen that and the church is emorrhaging people

1451
01:17:00,840 --> 01:17:03,639
Speaker 2: left and right, and in the United States, here in Europe,

1452
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:05,960
Speaker 2: and it seems to be strong in Africa and a

1453
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:09,000
Speaker 2: few other places. But if we want a global effect

1454
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:13,479
Speaker 2: of really bringing the Gospel of Jesus Christ to people

1455
01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:17,120
Speaker 2: so that they come to Christ themselves, I think we

1456
01:17:17,160 --> 01:17:19,400
Speaker 2: need to set off in a different direction. We had

1457
01:17:19,439 --> 01:17:23,439
Speaker 2: twelve years of mercy, mercy, mercy, and I think we

1458
01:17:23,479 --> 01:17:26,760
Speaker 2: need something else right now. And I think why is

1459
01:17:27,400 --> 01:17:29,880
Speaker 2: observers of the church and the world at this point

1460
01:17:30,080 --> 01:17:32,360
Speaker 2: we'll lash onto that and maybe we'll be surprised that

1461
01:17:32,479 --> 01:17:34,479
Speaker 2: some of the opinions we start to see a.

1462
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:38,840
Speaker 4: Peer Father Gerald Murray, Yeah, Raymond, I would say, I'm

1463
01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:43,439
Speaker 4: looking forward to hearing more public expressions of what's going

1464
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:46,040
Speaker 4: on in these general congregations. And I'm looking forward to

1465
01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:50,880
Speaker 4: hearing what I would say is basic Christianity being put

1466
01:17:50,920 --> 01:17:55,439
Speaker 4: forward as the most important criteria here. Yeah, when that

1467
01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:59,439
Speaker 4: cardinal or whoever gets up at a meeting and says X,

1468
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:02,400
Speaker 4: y Z, I hope we'll also get in front of

1469
01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:06,080
Speaker 4: the microphone and tell us because in the age of communications,

1470
01:18:06,600 --> 01:18:08,799
Speaker 4: it's not enough to tell people we know what we're doing.

1471
01:18:09,080 --> 01:18:11,360
Speaker 4: You know, trust us. We have to say, tell us

1472
01:18:11,360 --> 01:18:14,000
Speaker 4: what you want, well, support it if it sounds good.

1473
01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:17,160
Speaker 4: So that would be what I'd look forward to. More information,

1474
01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:21,000
Speaker 4: more sharing, and then to be quite honest, more cardinals, Sarah,

1475
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:22,439
Speaker 4: approach God or nothing.

1476
01:18:23,240 --> 01:18:26,640
Speaker 1: Okay, here's the hall. Cutting through all of this, I

1477
01:18:26,760 --> 01:18:33,480
Speaker 1: sometimes feel I'm covering disoriented journalists as they cover disoriented cardinalists.

1478
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:36,479
Speaker 1: There are more than four thousand journalists in Rome for

1479
01:18:36,560 --> 01:18:41,200
Speaker 1: this papal event, so many of them are asking me directions.

1480
01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:45,320
Speaker 1: They're not sure what a conclave is. They're mistaking bishops

1481
01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:48,360
Speaker 1: and monsignors for cardinals. So I get it. Poor guys

1482
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:50,280
Speaker 1: get dropped in the middle of a major news story.

1483
01:18:50,280 --> 01:18:52,200
Speaker 1: They're trying to figure it out. The problem is that

1484
01:18:52,240 --> 01:18:56,200
Speaker 1: he's very complex. The ritual's complex, the lead up is complex,

1485
01:18:56,240 --> 01:18:59,000
Speaker 1: and the payoff is even more complex. So there's a

1486
01:18:59,040 --> 01:19:02,879
Speaker 1: lot of unpredicted in this conclave. As we keep repeating,

1487
01:19:02,880 --> 01:19:05,759
Speaker 1: the cardinals don't know each other, and for ten years

1488
01:19:05,800 --> 01:19:09,480
Speaker 1: Pope France has forbade meetings of the College of Cardinals,

1489
01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:11,960
Speaker 1: so this is the first time they've all been together

1490
01:19:12,240 --> 01:19:15,479
Speaker 1: in a decade before many of them were even chosen.

1491
01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:20,040
Speaker 1: So the outcome is in God's hands. Stay tuned and

1492
01:19:20,080 --> 01:19:23,519
Speaker 1: stay with us for daily updates from the conclave. Crew

1493
01:19:23,640 --> 01:19:27,479
Speaker 1: will bring you those from Rome throughout this conclave and

1494
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:30,200
Speaker 1: then the election of the new Pope. Go subscribe to

1495
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:33,759
Speaker 1: a Royal Grande Show on YouTube at the Royal Grande

1496
01:19:33,880 --> 01:19:36,360
Speaker 1: Show or on the podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

1497
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:38,479
Speaker 1: And this series has been brought to you by our

1498
01:19:38,520 --> 01:19:43,000
Speaker 1: friends at Taylor Frigone Capital Management, Faith, Family and Finances.

1499
01:19:43,080 --> 01:19:47,400
Speaker 1: They're committed to all three. They're at Taylorfrigone dot com.

1500
01:19:47,520 --> 01:19:53,200
Speaker 1: We're also sponsored by Floriani Revitalizing Sacred Music Incredible Floriani

1501
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Speaker 1: dot org. Why live a dry trickle of a life

1502
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Speaker 1: when if you fill it with good things it can

1503
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Speaker 1: flow into a broad driving Arroyo Grande. I'm raiming a arroyo.

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Speaker 1: Make sure you subscribe and like this episode. Thank you

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Speaker 1: for diving in. See you next time. Choo. Arroyo Grande

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Speaker 1: is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and is available

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Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.