WEBVTT - Trump Attacks FBI Raid on Michael Cohen's Law Office 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:07.560 Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:10.440 day we bring you insight and analysis into the most 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:13.440 important legal news of the day. You can find more 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.040 episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:22.640 and on Bloomberg dot com, Slash Podcasts, and FBI rate 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:25.640 on his personal lawyer's office. Cut close to home for 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:29.200 Donald Trump, prompting an angry reaction from the President at 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:34.240 the White House last night at a meeting with military officials. 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:37.559 Why don't I just fire mother? Well, I think it's 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.159 a disgrace what's going on. We'll see what happens, but 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:42.920 I think it's really a sad situation when you look 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:45.600 at what happened that many people have said you should 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:49.120 fire him. Joining me is Jimmy Garoula, a professor at 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:53.040 Notre Dame Law School. Jimmy, how big an escalation was 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:57.840 this raid for the Justice Department? Well, it's significant, there, 0:00:57.840 --> 0:00:59.960 there's no question about it. And first of all, it's 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:04.280 very rare. It's quite unusual for the Department of Justice 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:08.400 to authorize the search warrant of an attorney who is 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:13.000 the legal representative of someone who is under investigation by 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:16.399 the Department of Justice. So again it's it's very rare. 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:19.320 It's rare, but this was done from what we know 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:23.800 by the book. Absolutely, there's no question about it. You know, first, 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:27.520 I think it speaks well of UH Special Counsel Mueller 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:32.839 because he apparently came across evidence of of a potential 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:36.120 crime and he believed that that and for that evidence 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:39.240 was outside of the scope of his mandate with respect 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:43.120 to investigating the Russia meddling in the two thousand and 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:46.880 sixteen election, and rather than investigating it himself, he brought 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:50.160 it to the attention of the Deputy Attorney General, Rod Rosenstein, 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:52.960 and it was Rod Rosenstein that referred the matter to 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.640 the U. S. Attorney's Office in in in Manhattan. So 0:01:56.680 --> 0:02:00.120 it was actually the the federal prosecutors in Manhattan that 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:06.040 conducted the search warrant. Does this say anything about Mueller 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:10.840 making strategic moves to help preserve his investigation even if 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:14.240 Trump removes him. Might the U. S. Attorney in Manhattan 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:17.720 be involved? Now? Well, I think he's certainly very cognizant 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:22.359 of his credibility and preserving his credibility, and that whatever 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:26.079 he ultimately concludes, whether he decides that crimes have been 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:29.959 committed or crimes have not been committed. The public is 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:31.600 going to have to buy in on this, and that's 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.080 gonna turn in large part on whether or not he 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:38.400 has credibility with respect to the way that he's conducted 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:41.560 his his investigation. And I think this actually weighs in 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:45.040 favor of Mueller because it shows again that he's adhering 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:49.200 very closely to to his mandate, the formal authority that 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:52.800 he's been given, and he's not exceeding exceeding the bounds 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:57.119 of that authority. What does it tell you that Rod Rosenstein, 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:00.720 who has been under so much pressure for so long 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:04.040 from President Trump, and it seems as if, you know, 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:06.520 we talk about Mueller being dismissed, and in that we 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:09.560 always talk about Rod Rosenstein being dismissed. What does it 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:12.040 tell you that he said, Okay, we're gonna take this 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:15.400 and we're gonna send this to the Southern District. Well, 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:18.359 what it tells me is that is that he's a prosecutor, 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:20.800 that's that's adhering to the rule of law, and that 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:26.680 he's not he's not capitulating to political pressure. So, despite 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:31.880 the harsh criticisms by President Trump of Rosenstein, in in 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:36.200 in in the public forum, uh air publicly. Uh. He's 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:38.840 doing his job. And so if he believes that there's 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:42.840 evidence of a crime, then then he's investigating uh, that evidence, 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:47.040 rather than than cow towing to political pressure by the president, 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:50.080 and he shouldn't do that. So it seems as if, 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.920 as from everything we've said and learned, that this is 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:59.200 a separate investigation. But could there be information that is 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:03.880 found in the attorney's office that helps Moller. There's there's 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:06.600 no question about it. And so I think that President 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:10.280 Trump is vulnerable in two important ways. I mean, first 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:14.640 with respect to the the the now ongoing investigation out 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:19.320 of the Manhattan Prosecutor's office regarding Michael Cohen. Certainly, during 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:23.520 that investigation, they could uncover evidence that implicates that is 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:27.560 incriminating of the president. And that's not far fetched considering 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:31.680 the fact that that Cohen portrays himself, he's very proud 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:34.440 of the fact that he's the so called fixer for 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.800 the president in terms of fixing any problems that that 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:41.400 confront President Trump. And so certainly there could be information 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:44.880 discovered during that investigation that implicates the president. But perhaps 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:48.679 even more more dangerous in terms of exposing the president 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:53.240 even graver legal jeopardy. And that is the president's reaction 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:56.080 to all of this, because if he overreacts and he 0:04:56.160 --> 0:05:00.040 fires Rosenstein, if he overreacts and he fires Mueller, and 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:03.320 then we've got the Saturday Night massacre situation being replayed 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:08.919 UH today and that could result potentially in impeachment efforts 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:12.760 against the president. Let's just discuss briefly a Saturday Night 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:16.480 masker situation. How many people would he have to fire? 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:21.000 Would you also have to fire the head of the FBI? Well, 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:25.320 he would start if he wants to get rid of Mueller. Again, 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:30.560 the Special Council Statute authorizes the Deputy Attorney General to 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:36.120 fire the Special Council forecause, and so that would be Rosenstein, 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:38.760 that would They would have that that authority. So if 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:42.559 Rosenstein refuses to do that, and then the president could 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:46.080 fire Rosenstein and then he would have to replace him. 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:49.000 And so the question would be who who would Rosenstein 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:52.240 be replaced? Rosenstein be replaced with and then he would 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:54.479 order the president would order that person to fire Mueller. 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.080 What if that person refuses to do so, and then 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:00.760 it could continue down the chain of command and in 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:04.680 that fashion, or maybe the other option would be for 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:08.159 the President to fire Sessions and then place uh, try 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:10.320 to get a new attorney general in place that wouldn't 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:14.279 be refused from the Russia investigation. But the problem with 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:16.159 that is is that it's going to be very difficult 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:19.560 I think if that occurs, if Sessions is fired, to 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.680 get a new to get the Senate to confirm a 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:28.640 new attorney general. And he did criticize Sessions yesterday as well, 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:32.640 and this his his feelings about Sessions seemed to seesaw 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:34.800 back and forth. But we're out of time. Jimmy, I 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:37.760 thank you so much for being on. That's Jimmy Garoule, 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:44.960 a professor at Notre Dame Law School. Buyer is inching 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:49.120 closer to completing a sixty six billion dollar acquisition of Monsanto. 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:53.400 The last major hurdle is approval from US anti trust regulators, 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:55.839 and Buyer is close to getting that. According to a 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:58.640 person familiar with the matter, Buyer has the green light 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:01.440 from almost two thirds of the jurisdictions it needs to 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.280 sign off on the biggest transaction yet and the seeds 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:08.040 and crop chemicals industry joining me. Is Bloomberg Intelligence, Your 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:11.960 litigation analyst Jennifer Read jen. This deal has been about 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:15.240 two years in the making. What have the Justice Department's 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.680 concerns been to slow it down? You know, first of all, 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:20.960 a lot of that time is just in the investigation 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.080 of these deals, because this is a really complex industry, 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:26.280 and they entered into this deal at a time when 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:28.360 there was a lot of consolidation. If you remember now 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:30.360 and do Pomp we're emerging in KEMP China and cent 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:32.960 Genta were emerging. So it really takes a lot of 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:36.600 time to weed through the issues. And these companies, in particular, 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:41.480 one Buyer is stronger in chemicals, agricultural chemicals, and Monsanto 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:44.160 stronger in agricultural seeds, and there are ways in which 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.840 these products work together and can be actually even tied 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:50.280 together in certain ways that I think that the Department 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:53.240 of Justice needed to ensure that whatever they did here 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.440 and whatever the remedy might be, would would fix any 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.960 issues that might allow these companies to sort of unlaw 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:03.920 off league tie these products together. So the Wall Street 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:08.960 Journal first reported on the possibility or the likelihood of 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:13.240 approval from the US antitrust regulators. What are some of 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:15.720 the agreements that seemed to be in place to move 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:19.040 the antitrust regulators to approve it. You know, there's a 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:22.520 lot happening here because the European regulators had already required 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:25.880 almost all of buyer's seed business to be divested, so 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:28.880 you know, pretty much practically eliminating that overlap. And I 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:32.040 believe there was also um some of their chemicals had 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:34.960 to get chemical agricultural chemicals needed to be divested too. 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:38.520 Now what the US said is look perhaps and down DuPont. 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.520 What European regulators required was also good enough for US 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:43.920 because this tends to be a global market. But in 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:46.439 this case, the competitive dynamic is a little different in 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:49.920 the US because we do allow genetically modified seeds, whereas 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:52.280 in a lot of countries in Europe these are not allowed. 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:55.040 So you've got a different dynamic there. And they needed 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:58.160 to ensure that they had everything covered. And it looks 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:01.600 like they are requiring the companies to sell more seed 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:05.720 and chemical assets, as well as possibly either sell or 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:12.000 licensed digital farming assets. The Justice Department, we know, as 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:14.559 we've talked about, the Justice Department is challenging the A 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:17.040 T and T time Warner merger and there's currently a 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.400 trial before a judge in d C. Can you tell 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:24.840 about the Trump administration's approach to antitrust From looking at 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:27.720 these two deals, you know, we're beginning to a little 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:29.520 bit and I think it's still early. But the thing 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:33.599 that's really interesting is that when UM President Trump was 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:35.840 elected and started thinking about who he might put in 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:38.640 place the Department of Justice, and the guy he put in, 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:41.280 Makondel Rahim to head up anti trust, was kind of 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:44.360 considered a Republican and a traditional Republican, and I think 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:46.599 a lot of people thought it might bring back a 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:48.320 time when it was a little bit more like what 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:51.360 enforcement was from mergers under George Bush, a little easier, 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.320 letting some of these deals go through UM where where 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:57.040 maybe the Democrats might not have And what we're seeing 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:59.320 is that that's not really the case. We're seeing tough 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:02.360 enforcement year with the obviously with respect to A T 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:04.840 and T they're suing to block, and with respect to 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:08.400 Buyern Monsanto, they're looking for some really major remedies here. 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:11.680 So what does that tell you about other mergers that 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:16.560 are currently pending. You mentioned Sinclair Tribune, Etna, CVS, Signa, 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:19.600 Express Scripts, Disney Fox. Well, I think that they're all 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:21.560 going to need to expect the same that they're not 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.000 just going to escape through um, you know on this 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:27.080 sort of uh you know less a fair attitude. That's 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.760 not going to be that. They're going to get scrutinized carefully. 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:31.400 They're going to have to and they're going to have 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:35.040 to remedy any possible harms and and it's not necessarily 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:38.839 going to be easy and it's not going to be behavioral. Well, 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:41.200 that's what it seems like now if they're in front 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:43.560 of the Department of Justice, it seems fairly clear the 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:46.079 behavioral remedies aren't going to be accepted. This was one 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:48.360 of the problems in the A T and T deal 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:52.400 and what they'll require something structural. However, that's not necessarily 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:55.160 the case, at least we don't know yet. Before the FTC, 0:10:55.800 --> 0:11:01.160 the FTC has always preferred a structural remedy over behavioral remedy, 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:04.000 but they have accepted purely behavioral remedies in the past. 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:06.439 Now we're going to soon have an entirely new crop 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:10.320 of FTC commissioners coming in five actually that will come 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:12.720 in and the existing two will leave, and we'll see 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:14.520 what they have to say about this and what they'll 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.439 do going forward. You know, as you mentioned there's been 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:22.080 this wave of consolidation in seed and crop chemical firms 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:26.239 in the past three years. So why and farmers are concerned, 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:31.160 they've expressed concern. Why allow even more consolidation. Well, you know, 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:33.640 the thing is, that's what the remedy is meant to do. 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:36.280 When there is a remedy of one of these deals, 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:39.040 it's meant to replace the competition that's been lost by 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:41.160 virtue of the deal. And when you think of it 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:44.880 that way, it's not really consolidation. And here what has 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:47.839 happened is that a company that wasn't in seeds before 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.600 but wasn't chemicals, that's b a SF is going to 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:53.080 be acquiring a lot of these assets, if not all 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:57.079 of them, and becomes a vertically integrated large seed and 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:00.560 chemical company akin to Dow DuPont and by mon Santo. 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:03.000 So so in a way, what they have done with 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:05.680 this remedy is preserved the competition that is lost by 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:11.079 virtue of the deal. In most cases, is EU approval 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:15.640 stricter than US approval or vice versa. You know, I 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:18.439 think it's merger dependent, but in general, sort of in 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.400 a macro sense, I think the European regulators are thought 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:24.520 of as more stringent and more difficult and more demanding 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.200 than the U S regulators um. But it remains to 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:30.120 be seen because we are seeing, you know, a tough 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.640 regulator right now in the Department of Justice with at 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:34.440 least a T and T in with this deal. So 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:37.240 we'll see what happens going forward. Now, will they be 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:41.200 able to close after they get US approval. They're still 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:43.520 waiting for some other approvals, but I think those will 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:46.320 fall in line. I believe Russia and India, possibly a 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:49.600 few others, but those will likely fall in line once 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.559 this US approval comes through. What happens in the US 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:54.840 is the Department of Justice will have to put out 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:58.520 a package for public comment for sixty days explaining what 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:00.760 their concerns were here and why, what the remedy is 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.800 and why it'll alleviate these concerns. After sixty days, a 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:06.560 judge has to sign off on this, and then it 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:10.400 becomes final. Let's jump over to the A, T and 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:14.240 T time Warner Merger for a moment. That trial is 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.800 ongoing in d C and nless. I heard the judge 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:22.000 asked both sides to cut down their witness list. He 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:24.680 seems to be very interested in moving this along quick 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:27.760 more quickly, and it has been very slow, starting with 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:29.960 a snow delay in the very first week which sort 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:32.400 of put them behind. But he does realize that the 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:34.640 parties are running up against a deadline and that they 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.760 want to get his decision before June, and in order 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:39.400 to do that, he's got a lot to get through. 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:41.160 And he said thinks his opinion is going to be 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:46.120 two hundred pages. Oh, I'm not sure probably, but that's 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:48.880 what he says. So in about a minute, what's the 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:53.120 highlight of the testimony that you've heard there? You know? 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:55.719 I think to me they're two highlights here. One the 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.760 judge made a comment about this arbitration offer that, um, 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:01.600 a T and t's put on the table. It's similar 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:03.840 to something that Comcast an NBC you had to do 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.320 in order to get their deal through. And he was 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:09.280 asking the Department of Justice obviously thinks it's insufficient. And 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:12.720 he was asking a witness who express express some concerns 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:15.000 over that arbitration. Could it be changed? How could it 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:17.040 be approved that that you would accept it? So the 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:18.920 means he's thinking about that, and I think that's a 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:22.400 positive sign for a T and T. And what was 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:25.400 the second one. Well, the second one for me was 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:29.320 the fact that UM, the judge did allow some documents 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:33.320 of UM A, T and T Direct TV employees UM 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:38.520 in which they expressed concern about when the Comcast, NBCU 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:42.600 behavioral concessions were to expire, and they expressed concern about 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:46.040 what those companies might do, which basically support the Department 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:47.960 of Justices case. So that was a score for the 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:50.120 Department of Justice. Always great to have you here, jenn 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:54.160 that's Jennifer E, Senior Litigation Atlas for Bloomberg Intelligence. Thanks 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:57.440 for listening to the Bloomberg Law podcast. You can subscribe 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:00.600 and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, un cloud, 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:04.520 and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso. 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:12.160 This is Bloomberg m HM.