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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim

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Speaker 1: Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio. On the ball.

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Speaker 2: Or you're hearing we're already getting fron Oh, we're having fun.

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Speaker 2: We are having fun. We're at the US Open. And

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Speaker 2: I have to say, last year I got to watch

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Speaker 2: the amazing devil's matchup between Serena and Venus, and then

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Speaker 2: watching Serena's last match, and I just think about the

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Speaker 2: role that those two individuals have had on the game

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Speaker 2: of tennis and really at the world at large.

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Speaker 1: I got to see Venus play on Tuesday night.

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Speaker 2: You did get to see Venus playing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what's amazing about Venus is she's literally playing

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Speaker 1: against people who grew up seeing her win Grand Slams.

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Speaker 1: It's remarkable.

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Speaker 2: It is pretty remarkable. Who's also in market playing for

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Speaker 2: a long time is the woman who's sitting next to

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Speaker 2: us again, Katrina Adams, former President, chairman and CEO of

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Speaker 2: the US Tennis Association, chair of the US Open as

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Speaker 2: well as the chair of the International Tennis Federation Cup

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Speaker 2: and Gender Equality and Tennis Committee, former Pro tennis pro

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Speaker 2: double specialist. And I could go on and on and on.

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Speaker 2: You're amazing thank you, Thank you for coming back and

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Speaker 2: finding time.

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Speaker 3: You're busy, always excited to be here with you guys.

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Speaker 2: Well, tell us about what you're excited about this year

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Speaker 2: at the Open.

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, it's the US Open.

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Speaker 4: It's spectacular, right, I mean everything that's happening here.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, obviously you just mentioned Venus Williams.

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Speaker 4: Just to see her back on the court again, you know,

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Speaker 4: since nineteen ninety four. I was sitting in her box

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Speaker 4: in nineteen ninety seven when she played her first final

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Speaker 4: and lost to or Tina Hingis. I was here when

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Speaker 4: she played the final against Serena Serena, her sister. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: when Serena won in ninety nine. But you know, when

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Speaker 4: you look at the emergence of Coco goa Off and

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Speaker 4: Francis Tifo and Jess Pagoula, and and you know, Michael

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Speaker 4: Mole look what he did today taking out John Isner

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Speaker 4: and so many young players.

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Speaker 3: Ben Shelton.

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Speaker 4: It's exciting for the American players, Tommy Paul, There's so many.

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Speaker 3: I can't even name them all right now.

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Speaker 4: And you know there was a time I I can

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Speaker 4: name them all on one hand.

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Speaker 1: Does it feel like we're sort of in a you know,

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Speaker 1: Andrea agascy Pete Sampress, Jim Curry or Michael Chang sort

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Speaker 1: of era where we have these Americans.

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Speaker 3: Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let's let's let's yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think that we have the ability to get there,

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Speaker 4: because when you talk about Taylor Fritz and tfone in

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Speaker 4: the top ten, and Paul Tommy Paul and knocking on

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Speaker 4: the door and Ben Shelton, those guys are are knocking

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Speaker 4: on the door. Yes, we'll get there, but until they

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Speaker 4: start winning majors like Pete Samprass and Andrea Agassi and

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Speaker 4: Jim Curry and Michael Chang, then it's it's a different

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Speaker 4: it's a different story.

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Speaker 1: But it's a long time That's good.

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Speaker 4: But it's a long time coming to be able to

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Speaker 4: talk about these guys being in these majors, get into

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Speaker 4: the second weaves consistently, and then having some new names

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Speaker 4: to join that on the men's side.

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Speaker 3: We've always been.

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Speaker 4: There on women's side, but to be able to talk

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Speaker 4: about these these men is really exciting.

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Speaker 2: Katrina. What is it that kind of keeps the younger

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Speaker 2: generation coming back to tennis?

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Speaker 4: I think being a to see players like we just

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Speaker 4: mentioned on the court week in and week out, you know,

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Speaker 4: and at these majors going deep to motivate the young

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Speaker 4: kids to want to get into the sport. So when

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Speaker 4: you talk about Fritz and TFO and Paul, you know

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Speaker 4: who were they watching when they were young kids who

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Speaker 4: motivated them to get into the sport. And for them,

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Speaker 4: I think when they came up through the USC Player

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Speaker 4: Development program, they really got to travel together, train together,

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Speaker 4: motivate one another, push one another. They're still doing that,

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Speaker 4: and they were looking up to the John Isners of

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Speaker 4: the world, the Jack Socks of the world, both.

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Speaker 3: Who are retiring. Here.

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Speaker 4: John isn't played this last singles match here and he

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Speaker 4: and Jack are playing doubles later today. It's just Jack's

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Speaker 4: last tournament where he'll be retiring. So I think it's generational.

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Speaker 4: You know, Mike and Bob they retired last year, two

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Speaker 4: years ago now, Mike and Bob Ryan and so I think,

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Speaker 4: you know, each generation inspires the next generation. And it's

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Speaker 4: fun to watch these brotherhoods and sisterhood its form and development.

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Speaker 1: I still have this question about access. You know, Tennis,

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Speaker 1: for a lot of people looked at as like a

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Speaker 1: country club sport still it's very expensive to get courts

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Speaker 1: and cities, especially during the winter if you live somewhere

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Speaker 1: where it snows, I mean Tiapo for example. Let's look

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Speaker 1: at his story. Would he be a pro tennis player

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Speaker 1: if his dad didn't work at a tennis center. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if he answered that he.

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Speaker 3: Could because he grew up in an NJTL program.

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Speaker 4: So the program itself was accessible, The program itself was free.

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Speaker 4: The program itself, you know, provided opportunity. I run a

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Speaker 4: program like that here in Harlan, the Harlem Junior and

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Speaker 4: Tennis an education program which provides access and opportunity for

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Speaker 4: inner city youth. There are over two hundred those types

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Speaker 4: of chapters in JTAIL chapters around the country, in addition

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Speaker 4: to after school program, so access is available. It's not

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Speaker 4: about having access. It's not about learning the sport. It's

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Speaker 4: about once you develop to be a player and you

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Speaker 4: become competitive, that's where the cost comes.

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Speaker 1: Okay, here's my concern. Every tennis court I see is

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Speaker 1: being turned into a pickleball court.

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Speaker 3: Not every tennis court. Let's not. Let's not put that

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Speaker 3: out there now.

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Speaker 1: Is driving me crazy? Thank you. I know. This is

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Speaker 1: when you when you speak to a serious tennis player

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Speaker 1: and you ask them about pickleball, that's the answer.

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Speaker 3: So I puts the challenge.

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Speaker 4: So I think the challenge where you're looking at those

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Speaker 4: courts are probably at clubs because clubs are about making money.

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Speaker 4: So our club is looking at take in a court,

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Speaker 4: one tennis court and turn into four pickleball courts where

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Speaker 4: they can try. Now they've they've got sixteen players on

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Speaker 4: a court versus four, right, So they're looking at the

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Speaker 4: opportunity to be able to make more money. To you know,

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Speaker 4: it's about monetization. But I also think, listen, I have

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Speaker 4: nothing against pickleball. I think it's a great opportunity for

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Speaker 4: people to get out and and get exercise, to have fun,

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Speaker 4: to be social. I think it's fantastic. There's a great

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Speaker 4: buzz out there, but it's about longevity. Where where where

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Speaker 4: will it go? I think it's growing to think about it.

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Speaker 4: But I also well, I don't want to say it's

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Speaker 4: a fad because you want it. You want all the

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Speaker 4: racket sports to succeed. It's a racket sport. We are

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Speaker 4: a racket sport in tennis. But what I do want

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Speaker 4: is that it's done right in that people are staying healthy.

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Speaker 4: It's also a sport where the highest injuries are coming

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Speaker 4: because everybody thinks they can go out and play pickleball

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Speaker 4: and they're you know, they're running their knees and ankles

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Speaker 4: and they're falling and this and that, and so I

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Speaker 4: think there just has to be.

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Speaker 3: A little more structured to it.

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Speaker 4: You know, tennis is a skilled sport, and it's a

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Speaker 4: mechanical sport, so is pickleball. But people aren't realizing that

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Speaker 4: they're able to go out and learn and make you know,

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Speaker 4: hand eye coordination quickly without really understanding the mechanics of

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Speaker 4: it or the footwork of it, and that's where they're

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Speaker 4: starting to get injured.

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Speaker 2: What do you love that people talk about when it

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Speaker 2: comes to tennis generally? What do you hate that they

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Speaker 2: talk about?

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Speaker 4: What I love is that it's a it's an individual

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Speaker 4: sport where you can just go out and build your

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Speaker 4: own self esteem, your self confidence.

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Speaker 3: Right you're figuring it, Oh my gosh. Yes, I mean

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Speaker 3: I love to compete.

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Speaker 4: I'm a natural, boring competitor. So for me, it was

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Speaker 4: about competing not just against you, but against myself and

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Speaker 4: getting better, pushing myself to hit one extra ball pushing

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Speaker 4: myself to go one more rally, pushing myself to do

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Speaker 4: one more drill, and pushing myself to get better. Every

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Speaker 4: single day I went on the court, learning a new shot,

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Speaker 4: learning a new spend. And I think that's the thrill

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Speaker 4: that I had that hopefully everybody else is having. You know,

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Speaker 4: even I speak to a lot of older women that

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Speaker 4: may not be started until they're forty, and they're going

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Speaker 4: out and they're learning at forty fifty and they're becoming

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Speaker 4: these three point zero level players and having so much fun,

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Speaker 4: and just a thrill that excites me, the fact that

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Speaker 4: you could start so late and have so much fun.

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Speaker 4: It's not going out there being you know, playing here

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Speaker 4: at the US Open for everybody, but just to go

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Speaker 4: out and have fun and build a camaraderie with people

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Speaker 4: and still have a competitive drive and natural competitive drive

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Speaker 4: in yourself. So there's nothing that I hate about the sport.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So then what I want to ask you is,

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about Michelle Obama, who at the beginning of

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Speaker 2: the week was talking about just equality and pay, and

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Speaker 2: here we are, and you know, Tim knows we talk

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Speaker 2: about this all the time, that we continue to have

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Speaker 2: these conversations, and it's the same thing with women in

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Speaker 2: you know, the CEO role. How do you feel about it?

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Speaker 2: Why does it take so long for their baby parody

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Speaker 2: with pay?

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Speaker 4: I think it's it's life, right, it's parody. There's no

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Speaker 4: parody in plant pay anything that we have. So fifty

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Speaker 4: years of equal pay here at the US Open, I

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Speaker 4: mean that says a lot. Yeah, we finally have parody

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Speaker 4: in pay at all of the Grand Slam events at

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Speaker 4: the Open. Well, definitely have it at the US Open. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it was the first one. Yeah, fifty years here, we

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Speaker 4: have it at all of the Grand Slams in Australian

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Speaker 4: Roland girls and Wimbledon. Wimbledon was the last one two

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Speaker 4: thousand and two, but or twelve. But when we look

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Speaker 4: at the tours and we have our joint events and mint,

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Speaker 4: the ATP event is still getting paid more than the

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Speaker 4: women at the same event.

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Speaker 2: The same week, significant location.

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Speaker 3: That's where it's challenging.

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Speaker 4: It's getting better, but it's about sponsorship, you know, why

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Speaker 4: are we not getting the same level of sponsorship for

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Speaker 4: the WTA or for the women events that the men

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Speaker 4: are And so you know, thank God for villaging Kings.

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Speaker 4: Fifty years ago to go out and find a sponsor

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Speaker 4: to throw in the pot to make the prize money

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Speaker 4: equal here at the US Open. That's because of her

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Speaker 4: and Bristol Myers, who added fifty five thousand dollars to

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Speaker 4: the women's prize money to make it equal to the men.

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Speaker 3: And then they never look back.

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Speaker 4: They realized how much of a great thing it was,

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Speaker 4: and we were fortunate enough to be able to do

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Speaker 4: that going forward.

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Speaker 1: What's wild to me is that it's fifty years of

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Speaker 1: equal pay here at the US Open. But there are

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Speaker 1: so many other sports today where there's there's not even

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Speaker 1: close to parody.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, I mean when you look at the women's

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Speaker 3: soccer U.

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Speaker 2: S W.

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Speaker 1: Women's national team, women's women's.

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Speaker 4: National soccer team, it's it's it's crazy that that just happened,

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Speaker 4: you know, and they fought for years when they were

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Speaker 4: the better team with their better results at World Cup

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Speaker 4: right exactly, And now you know, now we have a

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Speaker 4: professional women's hockey team, it's we're constantly fighting. And you

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Speaker 4: look at the women's NBA, the w n b A

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Speaker 4: not yet do they have parody, even though it's a

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Speaker 4: shorter season. But just look at when you look at

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Speaker 4: the amenities. They don't even have their own private jets.

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Speaker 4: Yet it's crazy to travel from from game to game.

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Speaker 2: And it says something about whether people say, oh, we

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Speaker 2: still think you're valuable. No, it says something about your

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Speaker 2: value and your worth.

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Speaker 3: It says a lot.

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Speaker 4: And so we still have a long way to go,

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Speaker 4: and it's something that we as professional athletes have been

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Speaker 4: fighting for for a very long time, longer than fifty years, and.

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Speaker 3: Hopefully we can get there.

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Speaker 1: Hey, Katrina, one thing I wanted to ask you. You

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Speaker 1: talked a little bit about earlier about what it took

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Speaker 1: to be a professional tennis player, all the practice you wanted,

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Speaker 1: having the desire to keep going. Tennis is a sport

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Speaker 1: that drives individuals completely insane. I mean, you watch some

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Speaker 1: of these players on the court and they're screaming at it,

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Speaker 1: at themselves. And if you were watching one of those,

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Speaker 1: so was I. If you're walking down the street and

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Speaker 1: you were to see this person in the context of

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Speaker 1: like the middle of the street, you would say that

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Speaker 1: person actually needs help. But you see them on a

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Speaker 1: tennis court and it's like totally normalized.

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Speaker 3: And you're like, I get that.

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Speaker 1: I get that. I'm wondering though, how you take that

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Speaker 1: after you retire and you use that energy in your

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Speaker 1: professional career, Like, does that keep going, that mental toughness

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Speaker 1: that you built up?

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Speaker 3: It does?

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Speaker 4: And I think you know we are. We build ourselves

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Speaker 4: to be perfect in everything that we do, and so

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Speaker 4: there is no room for failure quote unquote failure, but

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Speaker 4: only for improvement. So whatever we're doing and whatever profession

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Speaker 4: that is, we want to be the best. And I

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Speaker 4: know for a fact there are people that hire former

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Speaker 4: professional tennis players or athletes because they understand winning. They

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Speaker 4: know that they want to win, but they understand what

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Speaker 4: losing feels like. So they want to hire them because

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Speaker 4: they know that they're going to give it their all

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Speaker 4: because they don't like.

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Speaker 1: The feeling of losing.

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Speaker 4: So they know that they're going to make sure that

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Speaker 4: they're successful. And so I think that those our qualities

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Speaker 4: and the life skills that we have that make us

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Speaker 4: great in business, no matter what the business is. And

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Speaker 4: you learn how to work as a team. Even though

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Speaker 4: tennis is an individual sport, I still have a team.

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Speaker 4: I gotta work with my coach, I gotta work with

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Speaker 4: my physio, I got to work with whomever it is

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Speaker 4: I got to work with whoever my practice partner is

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Speaker 4: on the other side of the net, to make sure

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Speaker 4: that our drills are going properly right. So, yeah, it's

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Speaker 4: an individual sport when you're out there competing, but when

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Speaker 4: you're training, it is teamwork. And so when you go

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Speaker 4: into business, into the professional world outside of sport, or

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Speaker 4: it could be business in sport, it's still working with

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Speaker 4: a team and you're still driven to do and prepare.

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Speaker 4: It's all about preparation. So for me to be the

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Speaker 4: best on the court for my match, how well did

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Speaker 4: I prepare? For me to do a presentation for you know,

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Speaker 4: some job, or to get some deal, how well did

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Speaker 4: I prepare? And I think that's what people are hiring

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Speaker 4: or looking for in the qualities of individuals.

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Speaker 2: You only have about thirty seconds left here. Any predictions here?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, an American.

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Speaker 1: Let's go on the men's side and the women's side.

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Speaker 3: Let's go American. All right, go you think, so let's go.

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Speaker 1: So we're back. We are back to the nineties.

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Speaker 3: I go, do you still play? I do very little,

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Speaker 3: but I do double singles. I just hit. I don't

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Speaker 3: compete just well, I compete on the golf course.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's right.

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Speaker 1: Are you screaming yourself on the golf course.

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Speaker 2: You know what we really want to know is do you

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Speaker 2: throw clubs? But you're definitely hit though here.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much, good luck with everything.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Katrina Adams, former President, Chairman CEO of the

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Speaker 2: US Tennis Association, former pro so much more so inspiring

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Speaker 2: and so much fun. Thank you so much. You're listening

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Speaker 2: and watching Blueberg Business Week Carol Masser along with Tim

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Speaker 2: Stenovik live at the US Open here in Flushing Meadow.

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Speaker 2: Of course, we're just outside the Arthur Ashe Stadium. A

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Speaker 2: lot going on, a lot of people, a lot of

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Speaker 2: tournaments going on.

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Speaker 1: It is like a perfect day attendance record yesterday.

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Speaker 2: I wonder what today. I bet it'll be pretty good

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Speaker 2: to you.

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Speaker 1: We'll find out the toward the end of the day.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it'll be another record, all right. Well.

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Speaker 2: One of the things, yeah, speaking of kind of getting

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Speaker 2: to miles Stones and a lot of it has to

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Speaker 2: do with equality when it comes to something like the

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Speaker 2: game of sports. If you think about racial integration in

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Speaker 2: professional sports overall, you'd often think about Jackie Robinson in tennis.

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Speaker 2: Althia Gibson really stands out She grew up in Harlem,

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Speaker 2: not far from where we are now. In nineteen fifty six,

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Speaker 2: she won what's now the French Open, becoming the first

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Speaker 2: African American to win a Grand Slam. She went on

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Speaker 2: to win Wimbledon and what's now the US Open.

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Speaker 1: She broke many barriers, and even though she was one

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Speaker 1: of the most famous women in the world, her success

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Speaker 1: on the court didn't translate to financial stability, especially later

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Speaker 1: in life. Ashley Brown is an assistant professor at the

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Speaker 1: University of Wisconsin, Madison. She's written about the trials and

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Speaker 1: triumphs of tennis champion Althia Gibson and her key role

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Speaker 1: when it comes to the integration of American sports and

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Speaker 1: for a time one of the most famous women in

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Speaker 1: the world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Ashley Brown book. Her book, Brown's Book, Excuse Me

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Speaker 2: is only Arena, getting ahead, making a difference and succeeding

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Speaker 2: as the only one out. In twenty twenty one, she

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Speaker 2: Ashley Brown that is joins us on Zoom from Madison.

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Speaker 1: Wisconsin, serving herself.

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Speaker 2: Oh did I say, Oh, that's okay.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about you know what? We got Katrina's book. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry that Katrina we got Serving herself.

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Speaker 2: The Life and Times of Outthia Gibson. I'm so sorry, Ashley.

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Speaker 2: It's funny because we wanted Katrina to stay it kind

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Speaker 2: of talk with you. And she said as she was leaving,

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Speaker 2: great book. And the reason that there's a statue about

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Speaker 2: THEA Gibson here is because of her when she was

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Speaker 2: head of the USTA. Anyway, welcome, welcome, welcome, and thank

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Speaker 2: you so much for joining us. Tell us about your book.

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Speaker 5: Thanks so much for having me. So the book is

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Speaker 5: serving herself, The Life and Times of Althia Gibson. It's

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Speaker 5: a comprehensive, full scale biography of Gibson. The first African

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Speaker 5: American to compete at what is now the US Open,

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Speaker 5: the first African American to win at the US Open,

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Speaker 5: the first African American to compete and also win titles

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Speaker 5: at Wimbledon. And Gibson was also the first African American

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Speaker 5: woman to play on the LPGA tour. So she definitely

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Speaker 5: broke through many barriers for many people and certainly for herself.

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Speaker 1: Actually, what was the moment that you realized you wanted

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Speaker 1: to write a book about this, this person, this person

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Speaker 1: who broke so many barriers.

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Speaker 5: Well, I grew up in South Carolina, so I was

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Speaker 5: well aware of Althia Gibson's success in tennis, but it

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Speaker 5: was many years later, actually in my early years as

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Speaker 5: an adult. I'm a golfer. In fact, I played eighteen

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Speaker 5: holes today, if you must know. And I remember deciding at.

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Speaker 1: That point I wanted to learn more for a Thursday.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I decided that I wanted to learn more about

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Speaker 5: the history of golf, and I wanted to learn more

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Speaker 5: about the history of African Americans in the game of golf.

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Speaker 5: And I learned that Gibson was again the first African

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Speaker 5: American woman to play on the LPGA Tour. And I thought,

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Speaker 5: this woman broke barriers in tennis, and then she did

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Speaker 5: so in golf. I really must learn more about Althea Gibson.

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Speaker 5: And thus began a ten year journey.

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Speaker 2: Wow, tell us about that journey and some of the

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Speaker 2: milestones in terms of learning more about her and the

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Speaker 2: significance of her because it wasn't all always a lot

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Speaker 2: of it wasn't easy to be fair.

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Speaker 5: No, to use a phrase, her life was certainly not

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Speaker 5: all moonlight and magnolia. She had a hard time from

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Speaker 5: the very beginning. She was the daughter of sharecroppers. The

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Speaker 5: family joined the Great Migration. By the early nineteen thirties,

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Speaker 5: they were living in Harlem, which of course was a

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Speaker 5: mecca for a number of people of African descent from

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Speaker 5: around the world. The family was very poor. She was

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Speaker 5: the oldest of five kids, and a great deal was

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Speaker 5: expected of her. Gibson had a knack for coming to

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Speaker 5: the attention of the right people at the right time,

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Speaker 5: and in Harlem people began to notice what an exceptional

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Speaker 5: athlete she was. Pretty soon she came to the attention

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Speaker 5: of middle and upper class African Americans who loved the

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Speaker 5: game of tennis. She excelled there, but of course she

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Speaker 5: also had to learn the ropes. She also had a

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Speaker 5: number of difficulties when it came to class. So this

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Speaker 5: is someone who broke barriers and who challenged the status

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Speaker 5: quo when it came to gender, race, and class, and

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Speaker 5: we certainly see that in terms of her success in

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Speaker 5: tennis and golf. I'm fond of thinking of Gibson as

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Speaker 5: certainly a renaissance woman and someone who really refused to

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Speaker 5: be held down. You know, there were a lot of

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Speaker 5: people who said, no, you can't play tennis for this reason.

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Speaker 5: You can't play golf for this reason, but she ignored

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Speaker 5: those voices, and now she has such a rich legacy,

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Speaker 5: and of course the statue there on the grounds where

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Speaker 5: you are in New York.

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Speaker 1: She has a rich legacy. But to be fair, she's

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Speaker 1: not a household name. I think for many people, Ashley,

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Speaker 1: why do you think that is given all the barriers

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Speaker 1: she broke and all the first that she achieved.

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Speaker 5: It's a terrific point, tim, and it's one of the

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Speaker 5: reasons why I wrote this book. I certainly would name

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Speaker 5: Jackie Robinson as one of my I would say personal heroes,

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Speaker 5: but Gibson is up there too, and I want more

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Speaker 5: people to be aware of her. I think there are

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Speaker 5: a number of reasons. I think, first of all, it's

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Speaker 5: because she played tennis. For the longest time, has had

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Speaker 5: an image as a niche sport, a sport that's associated

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Speaker 5: with the well to do, the well off, even though

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Speaker 5: there are a number of tennis champions, of course, who

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Speaker 5: come from very humble backgrounds and beginnings, just like Gibson.

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Speaker 5: And I also think the fact that she was a

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Speaker 5: woman played into this. It's changing, but for most of

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Speaker 5: its history in America, sport has really been seen as

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Speaker 5: a male domain, a male preserve, and so when people

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Speaker 5: think about champions or what people have thought about champions,

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Speaker 5: they've mostly looked to male athletes. And so I think

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Speaker 5: gender was definitely in the way in terms of shrouding

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Speaker 5: Gibson from the awareness of a number of people. But fortunately,

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Speaker 5: thanks to the exploits of Gibson and a number of

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Speaker 5: successful sportswomen and they're out, more attention is being focused

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Speaker 5: on women in the history of sport, and it's really

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Speaker 5: a terrific time. Now.

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Speaker 2: There was something that struck me because I feel like

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Speaker 2: in the aftermath of Georgia Floyd, you know, we've had

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Speaker 2: a lot of heart to heart conversations, certainly with black

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Speaker 2: colleagues that we work with, and just you know, this

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Speaker 2: idea of being often a token in an event or

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Speaker 2: a conference room or a meeting or something, and the

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Speaker 2: burden that has put on their shoulders to kind of

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Speaker 2: be that one individual you know that's maybe speaking or

438
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 2: people are looking at them as speaking for their race overall.

439
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,199
Speaker 2: And in your book, you say Athia was frustrated by

440
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,639
Speaker 2: the ways in which race saddled her with labor unknown

441
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 2: to her white colleagues. On the tennis circuit, having to

442
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,240
Speaker 2: contend with crowds hostile to me because of my color,

443
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,239
Speaker 2: with newspapermen demanding twice as much of me as they

444
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,679
Speaker 2: did of anybody else, simply because my color made me

445
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 2: more newsworthy, And even with powerful government thinking to use

446
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,639
Speaker 2: me as an instrument of national policy because of my color,

447
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,399
Speaker 2: seemed to me to be more than anybody should have

448
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,400
Speaker 2: to bear. That's pretty powerful.

449
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:11,360
Speaker 5: Those are aptletely chosen words, Carol. Those words actually come

450
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 5: from ALTHEA. Gibson's first memoir, and she often found herself

451
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,439
Speaker 5: in the very difficult position of being expected to be

452
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 5: a role model, of being expected to be a spokesperson

453
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 5: for African Americans. This is a great opportunity to remind

454
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 5: viewers and listeners of the times when Gibson lived and

455
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,679
Speaker 5: when she carried out her career. She was born in

456
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 5: nineteen twenty seven, and she made her and for that matter,

457
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 5: African American's debut at what is now the US Open

458
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,919
Speaker 5: in nineteen fifty. She won the French Open in nineteen

459
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,679
Speaker 5: fifty six, Wimbledon and the US Open in fifty seven,

460
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 5: and repeated in fifty eight. Anyone who has any awareness

461
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 5: of history is aware that those were key moments in

462
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,479
Speaker 5: the build up toward and launching into the civil rights movement.

463
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 5: Nineteen sixty three, when she turns to professional golf, that

464
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 5: of course is the moment when we have the March

465
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 5: on Washington for Jobs and Freedom, and so many people

466
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 5: expected Althia Gibson to speak up and to stand up

467
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,920
Speaker 5: for all African Americans. That's quite a bit of pressure,

468
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 5: and it's also quite a bit of pressure when at

469
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,639
Speaker 5: the same time she was trying to make sure that

470
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 5: she had things for herself and that she could support

471
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 5: and help her own family at the same time that

472
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,679
Speaker 5: she's dealing with discrimination because of her race and because

473
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:42,120
Speaker 5: of her gender. So this history tells us so much

474
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 5: more about just the challenges African Americans across the country had,

475
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 5: but also more specifically the challenges that this particular African

476
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 5: American woman had in the games of golf and tennis,

477
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 5: but also when it came to getting endorsements and really

478
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 5: getting a flithold into commercial and the business aspects of America.

479
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 2: We're still talking with Ashley Brown. She's the sister professor

480
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 2: at the University of Wisconsin Madison. Her new book published

481
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 2: earlier this year, serving herself. The life and Times about

482
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 2: the Gibson So with us On Zuper from Madison, Wisconsin. Hey, Ashley,

483
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 2: one thing I'm curious about. We wanted to dig a

484
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 2: little bit more into the book. But after doing all

485
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 2: the research and work, did you like Auttha? Did you

486
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 2: have like a takeaway on her?

487
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 5: I did like her, and I would say that my

488
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 5: first among many takeaways was really the importance of perseverance.

489
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,679
Speaker 5: Althia Gibson never gave up and she gave all of

490
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 5: herself to everything that she did, every endeavor, even when

491
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 5: it seemed that the world was against her. She refused

492
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 5: to be denied, she refused to go away, and she

493
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 5: just kept pushing and going. And I think that's that's

494
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 5: the ultimate takeaway that I want readers to have when

495
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 5: they pick up and when they finish the book.

496
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: Ashley, Why did she not find commercial success, especially toward

497
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 1: the end of her life. I mean, this is a

498
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 1: woman who you write was at one point one of

499
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: the most famous people in the world. She was on

500
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 1: the cover of magazines. Look, you know, information didn't travel

501
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: as quickly as it does now in the nineteen fifties,

502
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: but she was winning Grand slams. What happened, He.

503
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 5: Won Grand Slams, and as you point out, she was

504
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,439
Speaker 5: on the covers of magazines all around the world, but

505
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 5: she also often seemed to be a step too late,

506
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 5: a step behind. So Gibson turned professional, turned to professional

507
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 5: tennis in nineteen fifty nine. It's only in nineteen sixty

508
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 5: eight that we get the Open Era in tennis, meaning

509
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 5: that amateurs and professionals could compete in the same tournaments,

510
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 5: including the Grand Slams, and this also meant that at

511
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 5: last people could be players could be paid and paid

512
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 5: well openly for what they did. This eluded Gibson in

513
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 5: her time, and though she did play in a few

514
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 5: professional events in the late nineteen sixties and early nineteen seventies,

515
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 5: by this time she's in her early forties. She's not

516
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,239
Speaker 5: at the peak of her game anymore, and so in

517
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 5: terms of her athleticism and being able to cash in,

518
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 5: that just never happened. And then also when we think

519
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,719
Speaker 5: about her professional golf career, certainly there was a tremendous

520
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 5: imbalance in terms of the purses in the men's tournaments

521
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 5: and the women's tournaments. The women always made less than

522
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 5: the men. In professional golf, Gibson was also hampered by

523
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 5: the fact that she came to golf much later than

524
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 5: most of the people who played on the LPGA Tour.

525
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 5: Many of those women had played since they were in

526
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 5: their early teens or even younger. Gibson had dabbled in

527
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 5: golf before the Late nighttien ten fifties when she became

528
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 5: serious about it, but she was really behind the eight ball,

529
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 5: we might say, compared to the other women who were

530
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 5: on the circuit, So she was never able to really

531
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 5: make the money in either tennis or golf that she

532
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 5: would have hoped. And then finally, because she was behind,

533
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 5: she was also behind athletically in those sports in terms

534
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 5: of the pro ranks. But this also meant that corporate

535
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,239
Speaker 5: America was not really open to her because really at

536
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 5: this time, segregation and discrimination were rampant on the American

537
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 5: business sing in the nineteen fifties in the nineteen sixties,

538
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 5: and so a number of companies she felt, were reluctant

539
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 5: to hire her to endorse their products, and so she

540
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 5: wasn't able to make the kind of money of let's say,

541
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 5: Arthur Ash as you point out, or Reggie Jackson in

542
00:27:55,520 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 5: the nineteen seventies, and certainly nothing compared to the amounts

543
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 5: of money that athletes today are able to make, not

544
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 5: only on their teams and in their individual sports, but

545
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 5: also commercially.

546
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 2: Well, you talk about in the book this was I

547
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 2: think in the nineteen seventy or at nineteen seventy taking

548
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 2: Gibson taking a long, hard look at her finances and

549
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 2: face a sobering reality long in the making. She recounted

550
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 2: the realization years later, quote, you got to eat, you

551
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: got to pay the rent, you got to pay bills,

552
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 2: car insurance and things like that. I wasn't making enough

553
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 2: money to do that. There's several sections in your book

554
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 2: where you talk about financial concerns. Tim and I we've

555
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 2: just got about a couple of minutes left. We're curious

556
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 2: about your process of putting this together. And you know,

557
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 2: before I cracked open the book, Tim was like, you

558
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 2: got to go to also the pictures that are in there,

559
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 2: because it really, in a strong way, tells so much

560
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 2: of her story as so, but talk to us a

561
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 2: little bit about the process.

562
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 5: Long process, ten years in the making, also a very

563
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 5: personal process. Certainly I enjoy Manis and I'll be paying

564
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 5: attention to the open and what Coco Goff and Caroline

565
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 5: Wisniyaki are doing, but also writing the sections about her

566
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 5: golf career, I wanted to make sure that that received

567
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 5: the attention that it deserved, because I felt that that

568
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 5: was a part of her life and her legacy that

569
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 5: really had not received adequate attention. But this was also

570
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 5: about searching through archives, looking at all kinds of correspondents,

571
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 5: federal records, and government records at the state and other levels.

572
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 5: Her fame was really useful because this meant that Gibson

573
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 5: was someone who from a very early age traveled across

574
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 5: the country and around the world, So going through hundreds

575
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 5: of newspapers and magazines and reading through thousands of articles

576
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 5: to get a sense of where she went and what

577
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 5: she did, what she said, and also what people thought

578
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 5: of her. And so this is why the book is

579
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 5: as long as it is, and it's also why the

580
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 5: story and the narrative why they are as deep and

581
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 5: as engaging as they are.

582
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: Just in the last twenty seconds we have do you

583
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: students get to take a class on her from you?

584
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 5: They don't get to take a class that is specifically

585
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 5: about ALTHEA Gibson, But I certainly talk about her in

586
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 5: my large lecture course History one point thirty six Sport

587
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 5: Recreation in Society, and also in another lectured course that

588
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 5: I teach that is also very very popular called African

589
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 5: Americans and Sports. And we'll certainly talk about Gibson this

590
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 5: fall in my seminar, which is about women in United

591
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 5: States sports history.

592
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 2: Well, we said to you, Trina, Anam's former president of

593
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 2: the USTA. She said, great book, incredible book. Ashley, thank you,

594
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 2: say thank you so much. Assistant professor at the University

595
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 2: of Wisconsin Madison, her new book, Serving Herself, The Life

596
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 2: and Times of ALTHEA. Gibson. It is out. She called

597
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 2: it long. I call it comprehensive, and it mean to

598
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 2: learn something. This is Bloomberg