1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. My guest today is a journalist, author, 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: and news anchor, widely recognized for his sharp political interviews 4 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: and moderating recent US presidential debates. Jake Tapper is currently 5 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: the Washington anchor for CNN and weekday host of the 6 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: Lead with Jake Tapper. He is also co host of 7 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: the Sunday morning political roundtable State of the Union. Tapper's 8 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: work as a broadcast journalist has earned him two Emmy Awards. 9 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: He is also a recipient of the prestigious Edward R. 10 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: Murrow Award for Outstanding Achievements in Broadcast and Digital Journalism. 11 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: In addition to his work as a reporter, Jake Tapper 12 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: is also a best selling author of political thrillers and nonfiction, 13 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: known for his directness and tough critique. Curious how Jake 14 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: Tapper would critique himself? 15 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, brutally. There's no one that I'm tougher on than me, 16 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 2: is the truth. I'm a flagellator, a self flagellator, Like 17 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 2: as if it's one of those scenes that you see 18 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 2: in Iran every now and then where Shia are flagellating themselves. 19 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: It is. 20 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 2: It is a daily event. No one is tougher on 21 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 2: me than me. 22 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 1: Your career is so vast, all the writing and the 23 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: work you did before you landed it to ABC first 24 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: we were on camera first with ABC or somebody else. 25 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 2: Full time ABC? Yeah, I mean there was there's little 26 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 2: things here and there, but full time job, yes, ABC News. 27 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: Do you go back to look at your work and 28 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 1: evaluate yourself to try to fix it? 29 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 2: Well, I'm lucky enough that I have a daily show 30 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 2: so that every possible mistake I could make is pointed 31 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 2: out to me in real time. 32 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:55,639 Speaker 1: By do they really give you a direction? 33 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 2: By the no, by I'm talking about like the masses on. 34 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 2: So I tend to think that my flaws as a 35 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 2: broadcaster are more in holding back than in going in 36 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 2: too much. There there are times that I think I 37 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 2: went too far, but generally speaking, there is the imperative 38 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 2: in broadcasting that you know and you know this, but like, okay, 39 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 2: we got to take a commercial break, Okay, we got 40 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: on to the next. Like it's almost as if you 41 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 2: as soon as you have a guest, even if it's 42 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: a huge guest, there's almost like an excitement for it 43 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 2: to be over. That's just like cable news. So sometimes 44 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 2: I get too wrapped up in what I'm being told 45 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 2: and not focused enough on what I'm experiencing and what 46 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 2: the interviewee is saying. And there are times that I 47 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 2: wish that I had plunged in more. The mistakes I 48 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 2: make tend to be one of three or four that 49 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 2: I make over and over and over again. 50 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: So when you're doing the lead your show, your signature 51 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: show with CNN, are there producers or who work with 52 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: you they shaped the program or is the content of 53 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: the program essentially your call. 54 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: It's a combination of both, but it's I mean, it's 55 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 2: without question, it's a huge team effort, like right now. 56 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 2: So I had my first call at eight thirty in 57 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 2: the morning with my two top producers, my executive producer 58 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 2: and my senior broadcast producer, and then we talk about 59 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 2: what we want to be in the show, and we 60 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 2: discuss things that we think need to be in the 61 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: show today. Obviously, as we're in the midst of this 62 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 2: presidential decision about whether or not to drop a massive 63 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 2: bomb on a mountain or a facility in Iran, and 64 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 2: so it's a little different than the average day, and 65 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 2: we talk about the guests that we already have lined up, 66 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 2: and we talk about what we want to ask them 67 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 2: or what I want to ask them, and then it 68 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 2: gets assigned to producers. And we have a producing team 69 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 2: of about twenty or so, and each person gets their 70 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 2: own assignment or two for a block or two, and 71 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 2: then we go over it all at roughly two hours 72 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: before the show, so three o'clock for a five o'clock show. 73 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 2: And sometimes I'm weighing in the whole time, and sometimes 74 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 2: I'm talking to people about what I want in there. 75 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 2: And obviously we adjust as the day goes on because 76 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 2: of news developing, such as a Supreme Court decision or whatever. 77 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 2: It's my show. But like with a team of smart 78 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 2: people who push back on me, who offer their ideas, 79 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: and in that conflict and tens, I think we get 80 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 2: to a good place. 81 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: Obviously, the show and your staff, your producers, and people 82 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: who do the show with you, they have bosses as well. 83 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: Do they leave you alone? When do you? I mean 84 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: you see what happened to Terry Moran? Are you left 85 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: alone by the powers that be? At Wanner Discovery? 86 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: Pretty much every now and David Zaslov would be the 87 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 2: big cheese sure, and then we have a new one 88 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 2: for the split that doing Gunner, but I don't talk 89 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 2: to them on a regular basis. It's more it would 90 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 2: be more Sir Mark Thompson, who's the head of CNN, 91 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 2: but even he is pretty hands off. And then there's 92 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 2: a layer of executives there too. It's more, here is 93 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 2: what we have, Here is what we have been putting 94 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 2: together with our reporters, and here's where we have reporters 95 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 2: on the scene, and this is what we think. But 96 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 2: you guys do your own shows, and that people might 97 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 2: suggest something like if I were leading today with a 98 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 2: story about the New York Mets or something, I'm sure 99 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 2: if people would say, what what are you doing? But 100 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 2: as a general rule, they leave us pretty much alone. 101 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 2: In terms of the Terry Moran thing, I don't get 102 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 2: a lot of feedback on my social media. I tend 103 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 2: to not opine as much. I tend to think that 104 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 2: if I have some thought, that it's better that I 105 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 2: do it on TV than if I do it on 106 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 2: social media. And that is a I think it's a 107 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: healthy way to do it, because A it means that 108 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 2: you can do it with the whole context and proving 109 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 2: the point you want with clips and with evidence. And 110 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 2: also it means that other people can have their eyeballs 111 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 2: on it and it can be the best presentation. And 112 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 2: I happen to think a good like four or five 113 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 2: minute piece that you might do or a tell or 114 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 2: like we're preparing one today for the decision that President 115 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 2: Trump has in front of him right now. And I 116 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 2: think that that would be better. I think that will 117 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 2: be better than if I just kind of just shared 118 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 2: my random thoughts on my own and put it on 119 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 2: social media. 120 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: Right right, Well, I mean, of course, people would go 121 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 1: to CNN for the news, yeah, and they wouldn't want 122 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: to watch breaking news, and they would watch MSNBC. If 123 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: you're of a certain leaning, you'd watch MSNBC for the commentary, right, 124 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: And people seem to pivot between the two. Do you 125 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: feel that that's still the case though, Do you feel 126 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: that people are coming to CNN largely for breaking news 127 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: and going to MSNBC for opinion or you don't think 128 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: that's any longer the case. 129 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 2: We do have overlap with Fox and ms I think so. 130 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 2: I also think that there is a degree to which 131 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 2: sometimes people don't want to hear certain news, and so 132 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 2: they might go to a channel that preaches to the choir. Look, 133 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 2: the preaching to the choir business model or opinion slash 134 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 2: analysis business model is a lucrative one. I think that 135 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 2: I hope that there's always going to be room for 136 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 2: a news a case, news network. In these days we're broadcast. 137 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 2: News is not what it was ten years ago or 138 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 2: twenty years ago in terms of foreign coverage, in terms 139 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: of that sort of thing. I mean, I worked under 140 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 2: Peter Jennings at World News tonight and that was yeah, 141 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 2: and a very different show than what they put on now. 142 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 2: I hope that there is always going to be a 143 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 2: market for it. I don't know that there will be, 144 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 2: but I think and hope that there will be. But 145 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 2: we'll have to see. I mean, the world is evolving 146 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 2: in such crazy ways when it comes to the consumption 147 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 2: of all media. It's affecting your world as much as 148 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: it's affecting my world. It's affecting publishing. I've written seven books, 149 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: and the way that publishers look at ebooks and audiobooks 150 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 2: today is significantly different than five years ago. Now there 151 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 2: is this real recognition that people are not reading hardcover 152 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: books as much as they used to. That people are 153 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 2: listening to books and reading them on their phones is 154 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: just as much. 155 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: Now you are on the air during the week and 156 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: everybody I know watches your show. They're all fans of 157 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: the lead with you and CNN, and then you're on 158 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: on the weekend as well. Correct. 159 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Dana Bash and I split State of 160 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: the Union on Sunday, So sometimes it's her, sometimes it's May. 161 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: But yeah, different demographic for those shows, different producers. 162 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 2: Yes, completely different team. I mean there's overlap in terms 163 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 2: of sometimes somebody will leave the lead and go work 164 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 2: with State of the Union or vice versa. But yes, 165 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 2: and different hours and a completely different task. A Sunday 166 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 2: show is one that is not necessarily as driven by 167 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 2: what is going on today. It's driven maybe more like 168 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 2: what's the conversation of the week. So for instance, Dana, 169 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 2: it's State of the Union earlier this week, and you know, 170 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 2: the story of that day was Iran. But she covered 171 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 2: other things too that had gone including you know, legislation 172 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 2: and stuff on the hill. So it's a little bit 173 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,119 Speaker 2: different that you also have more time to breathe. An 174 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: eight or nine minute interview on Sunday is fine. An 175 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 2: eight or nine minute interview on the lead during the 176 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 2: week is long. 177 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, well you're doing this job now on the air. 178 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: You were with ABC on the air for how many. 179 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 2: Years from two thousand and two to twenty thirteen or 180 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 2: something like. 181 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: That, right, and then even with ce an incense, Yes, 182 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: when you moved over. 183 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 2: Directly, I wanted to anchor. That's what I wanted to do. 184 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 2: And you you've anchored, so you know the joy and 185 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 2: the challenges of anchoring. 186 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: But is it is it is played an anchor. No, 187 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: I'm kidding. 188 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, well you know, but you anchored a show and 189 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 2: it was interesting. But you know what I mean, Like, 190 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 2: you want to anchor a show as opposed to report 191 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 2: for a show. And one of the reasons I wanted 192 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 2: to do it is so the reported pieces I do 193 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 2: could be as long as I wanted them to, as 194 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 2: opposed to well, as long as an anchor wanted them 195 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: to be. 196 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: But when I did the show one I did for MSNBC, 197 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: I just wanted to do a straight interview show. My 198 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,199 Speaker 1: model and I say this was no facetiousness. Was Tom Snyder. 199 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: Snider was a great interviewer. Yeah, well, I want to 200 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: have a nice hour long conversation with somebody who's worth 201 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: that investment of time, and not get anybody like you. 202 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: Tell me who you are, You tell me what people 203 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: aren't saying about You, tell me all about your work 204 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: and your view of it. This is a chance for 205 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: people to say whatever they wanted to say. 206 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 2: I don't know why that's gone. I agree with you 207 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 2: that Tom Snyder model, the Charlie Rose model, Tim Russer. 208 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 2: Tim Russer used to have a show like that on CNBC, 209 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 2: I think, and he would do extended interviews with people 210 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 2: who maybe didn't rise to the meet the press level, 211 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: like Donald Trump in the early aughts, and then you 212 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 2: could mind those interviews much later. And in fact, at 213 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 2: one point I was talking to Jeff Zuker when he 214 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 2: was my boss at CNN, about would I do a 215 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 2: show like that at HLN back when HLN still was 216 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 2: what HLN was, and just so there would be a 217 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 2: show where we could do extended hour long interviews. And 218 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 2: it was a really interesting idea and then it just 219 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 2: never happened. But I agree with you, I would watch 220 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 2: a show like that. I think those are basically podcasts now. 221 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 2: I guess broadcasting exact broadcasting doesn't do them anymore. I 222 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 2: don't know why. 223 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: And you could do the show, I said, put me 224 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 1: on a two in the morning, I don't care. Yeah, 225 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: and then we'll stream the audio as a podcast. 226 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 2: Or inside the actors Studio. Was that was that too? 227 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: Yeah? And they're they're very upset that that's gone. It 228 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: was really a. 229 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 2: Great It was a great show. And I don't know 230 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 2: why it doesn't exist anymore. 231 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: If Jim died, yeah he does, well, I. 232 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 2: Know Jim died, but but the the conceit of it 233 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 2: is still so smart. But why why doesn't it exist? 234 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 2: And I can only think I know that people have 235 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 2: looked into it and the conclusion is just it's just 236 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 2: too expensive for that. They just don't think it will rate. 237 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 2: The other thing, and I hate to say this, but 238 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 2: the people who make decisions like this don't think that 239 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 2: getting an actor over the age of sixty will draw 240 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 2: any viewers. And it's crazy to me because like I 241 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 2: could watch an interview with Gene Hackman or Morgan Freeman 242 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 2: or Alan Alda or whatever, But like, I guess that's 243 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 2: just the mindset these days. 244 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: Well, if you're when you're ready to host inside the actors, 245 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: studio or reboot. I'm going to call you. Okay, we'll 246 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: make a deal with CNN and you can call it. 247 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: We'll call you now. You've been in this, doing this 248 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 1: since you said two thousand and three. Thank god, what 249 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,959 Speaker 1: you've seen and the changes you've seen. Yeah, and it 250 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: must be so I don't know what the word is, 251 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: and not alarming, but maybe even exhausting. Almost every day 252 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: in the world we live in right now, and since 253 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: you know who I would imagine is it just feels 254 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: like the world is hanging on by its fingernails. 255 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 2: It feels like that President Trump has a way of 256 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 2: turning on a fire hose of activity that does make 257 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: it especially challenging to figure out what to cover, what 258 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 2: not to cover. Somebody asked me the other day about 259 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 2: a decision I made to not cover a social media 260 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 2: post of the president. So it was when he retruthed 261 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 2: that crazy post about Biden was assassinated and he's been 262 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 2: replaced by clones or something like that. I'm sure you saw. 263 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 2: And this person said, you know, any other in any 264 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 2: other situation that would be like the front page of 265 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 2: the New York Times that the president would put forward 266 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 2: such an unhinged theory, and I agree with it. But 267 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 2: also I think one of the lessons I learned from 268 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 2: the first Trump term is don't follow the tweets, follow 269 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 2: the activities the actions. The actions are more important than 270 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 2: the words. And right now, the actions and the words 271 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 2: are about whether or not he's going to authorize a 272 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 2: bombing of the Fodah plant in Iran. But also you 273 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 2: have all these deportations, you have this litigation having to 274 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 2: do with universities, you have this lawsuit against Paramount Slash 275 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 2: CBS News, and I just think that the actions are 276 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 2: more important than the words. But it does feel like 277 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 2: an especially crazy and perilous time. No question. 278 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: My wonder when I looked at that whole thing with 279 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: the Harvard and so forth, is there a corresponding attack 280 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: on conservative colleges? Does Liberty University get the same treatment 281 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: as Harvard? Have they been pursuing this blindly or are 282 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: they only focusing, as one might easily guess, on liberal universities. 283 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 2: They've only focused on Ivy League University, and I think 284 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 2: they're looking at the University of California system. I mean, 285 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 2: they're obviously picking their targets according to I mean, they 286 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 2: would argue that they're picking their targets according to where 287 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 2: has there been DEI, where has there not been enough 288 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 2: civil rights protections for Jewish students in the wake of 289 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:18,359 Speaker 2: the protests. But I think they're pretty cleverly picking avatars 290 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 2: for that which the MAGA world hates universities, especially Harvard. 291 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 2: I mean, there just is something about them going after 292 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 2: Harvard more than Yale that is particularly inciting of the 293 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 2: base that hates Harvard, even those who went to Harvard, 294 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: you know. 295 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: I mean, your dad went to Harvard Medical School. 296 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 2: My dad went to Harvard Medical School. 297 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: Is he still around? Your dad? 298 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 2: He is? He's eighty five years old. 299 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: My god, what does he think of all this? 300 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 2: Oh he's an old died in the wool lefty. He 301 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 2: has a nickname for Trump that I won't repeat. Yeah, 302 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 2: he's not a fan of this. You know. He came 303 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 2: of age and his skepticism about power really influenced me 304 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 2: growing up. And it wasn't partisan because he hated LBJ, 305 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 2: but his skepticism about the Vietnam War was very influential. 306 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 2: So I was born in nineteen sixty nine, so the 307 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 2: Vietnam War went on until seventy four. Seventy five, and 308 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 2: that and Watergate were hugely influential parts of my very 309 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 2: very early childhood, and how much he hated the Democratic 310 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 2: mayor of Philadelphia where I grew up, Frank Rizzo, who 311 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 2: was a former police chief, a police commissioner, and the like. 312 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: Did your parents divorce affect you in any way in 313 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: terms of your career? 314 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 2: I think, you know, funny, I think that I was 315 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 2: talking about this the other day. So we had a 316 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 2: president at CNN named Chris Licht who was rather short 317 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 2: lived after David Zaslov came in and Warner Brothers Discovery 318 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 2: took over CNN, and I was trying internally to help 319 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 2: make that work towards the end when it wasn't working 320 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 2: and before Chris left. I think that is part of 321 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 2: my being a child of divorce, that I was trying 322 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 2: to make this work even though very few people I think, 323 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 2: wanted to make it work anymore towards the end, and 324 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 2: obviously it didn't. But I mean, I think that trying 325 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 2: to make a relationship work even when it's over, I 326 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 2: think that's the root of it. But I have very 327 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 2: good relationship with both my parents, and they're both still alive. 328 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 2: My mom actually just moved down from Philadelphia to Washington, 329 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 2: d C. To a retirement home right near us, so 330 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 2: I see her at least once a week. And yeah, 331 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 2: they're still alive and kick and they're in their eighties. 332 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 2: Eighty two and eighty five. 333 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: Washington and Philadelphia, I mean, I would imagine an a 334 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: of fact I know from people that I know done. 335 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: I love Philadelphia. Yeah, I love Philly and I love Philly. 336 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: It's New York without the ego, but those societies and 337 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: that kind of realm. Yes, Washington's Washington, but it isn't 338 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: that much different, are they. Did you find it difficult 339 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: to adjust to living in Washington full time? 340 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 2: I didn't find it difficult, But they're very different. Philadelphia 341 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 2: is a city of neighborhoods and different ethnicities. You know, 342 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 2: there's a Vietnamese neighborhood, a Chinese neighborhood, a Jewish neighborhood, 343 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 2: of Polish, Italian, on and on, and you know, it's 344 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 2: a city of allegiances to Philadelphia. It's one of the 345 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 2: reasons why it's so fun to be a Philadelphia sports fan. 346 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:21,239 Speaker 2: Sometimes Philadelphia sports Sorry, I'm one of them. And if 347 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 2: I panned up my camera you'd see all the memorability 348 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 2: you want to see it. But Washington is very much 349 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 2: a company town. Washington reminds me more. I lived in 350 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 2: Los Angeles, very very briefly. After college. I went to 351 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 2: film school. I went to USC Film School for one semester, 352 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 2: and I found even though I know Los Angeles is 353 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 2: not Hollywood and I'm well aware of how huge Los 354 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 2: Angeles is and how it's not just the industry, but 355 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 2: I was at film school, so I was in the 356 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 2: industry world of it. And DC feels a lot like that. 357 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 2: To me. It's a it's a company town and it's tough, 358 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 2: and I think LA is the same way. 359 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: We went to see You lasted one semester. 360 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 2: Why one semester? But first of all I went into 361 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: I wanted to be a writer and maybe director. The 362 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 2: truth is, I didn't know what I wanted to do 363 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 2: after college. And all my friends were going to law school, 364 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,880 Speaker 2: and I had taken some film classes and I really 365 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 2: liked them, and I was interested in film. And this 366 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 2: was like the era of Spike Lee and John Singleton 367 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 2: and you know, the autor Quentin Tarantino, and there was 368 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 2: this kind of romance about it. And again, I didn't 369 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 2: know what I wanted to do. My dad maybe pay 370 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 2: for it. That's one of the reasons why it only 371 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 2: lasted one semester, because I was paying for it, so 372 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 2: it's like, okay, And then after a while I didn't. 373 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: Ever even became clear real quickly. 374 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 2: Well, I didn't know. First of all, I didn't even 375 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 2: know that that's what I wanted to do, and you know, 376 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 2: it just it just seemed questionable to me that I 377 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 2: should spend my money on that. Also, just the first 378 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 2: year out of college is for me at least, and 379 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 2: I think for a lot of people, it's just such 380 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 2: a miserable time. And I didn't know what I I 381 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 2: didn't become a full time journalist until I was like 382 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 2: twenty nine, so it took me a little while of 383 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 2: running around in the wilderness. 384 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 1: Journalist and author Jake Tapper. If you enjoy conversations with journalists, 385 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: check out my episode with the former executive editor of 386 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 1: The New York Times, Jill Abramson. 387 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 3: There's a traditional separation between the editorial department and the 388 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 3: editorial views of the paper. 389 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: And newsgathering and news. 390 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 3: Gathering, but you know, a lot of people don't know 391 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 3: that even a lot of political people in Washington didn't 392 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 3: know it. So in Washington it was actually it advantaged 393 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 3: me because in nineteen ninety four, for example, when Gingrich 394 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 3: took over the House, like there were Republicans who would 395 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 3: gladly talk to me. 396 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Jill Abramson, go 397 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: to Here's the Dot Org. After the break, Jake Tapper 398 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: talks about the genesis of his latest book, entitled Original Sin, 399 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: President Biden's decline, its cover up, and his disastrous choice 400 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: to run again. I'm Malec Baldwin and you're listening to 401 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing. Jake Tapper is currently CNN's lead Washington 402 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: anchor and chief correspondent. Tapper hosts both an evening show 403 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: during the week and co host State of the Union 404 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: on Sunday mornings. In addition to his relentless television schedule, 405 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: Tapper has written five novels and recently published a sixth 406 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: nonfiction book titled Original Sin. I was curious how Tapper 407 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: finds the time to write while staying on top of 408 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 1: America's political news. 409 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,199 Speaker 2: It's just a constant thing. I always have either my 410 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 2: laptop or something with me, a computer of some sort 411 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,959 Speaker 2: an iPad right now, because I'm working on an artistic book. 412 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,199 Speaker 1: Everyone in my office, my producers, I didn't know this. 413 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: They introduced me to the idea that you're quite the illustrator. 414 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know how good I am, but I try. 415 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 2: And I'm writing right now a graphic novel. Except it's 416 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 2: not a novel. It's nonfiction of about Klaus Barbie, the 417 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,360 Speaker 2: Nazi ah and the hunt for him and all that. 418 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 2: But in any case, no, it's just non stop writing. 419 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: What was his nickname? Me and the butcher of what? 420 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 2: The Butcher of Leon Leon? Yeah, the Butcher of Leon. 421 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 2: Good memory. It's really a fascinating story. But the writing 422 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 2: is just NonStop, whether it's Google docs or word I'm 423 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 2: just always working and I do a lot in the morning. Actually. 424 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: So when a book idea comes into your mind, and 425 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 1: I'm sure, like a lot of writers, there's multiple ideas 426 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 1: and some are rejecting and so forth, you do the 427 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: book about Biden original sin. What was the genesis of that? 428 00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 2: The genesis was that we all went through this crazy 429 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 2: the debate, which I happened to have a front row 430 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 2: seat two and it obviously shocked everybody how bad he was, 431 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 2: and I wanted to know, Okay, well, what really happened here? 432 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 2: How bad was it behind the scenes, because there's no 433 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 2: way this just happened that moment, and there had been 434 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 2: a little reporting about it, but not a ton. And 435 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 2: I said to my agent before the election, I think 436 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 2: Trump's going to win, and I think people are going 437 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 2: to be wanting to figure out why that happened, and 438 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 2: talking to Democrats, they think the original sin was that 439 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 2: Biden shouldn't have never run for reelection, and then he 440 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 2: should never have tried to hide his diminishment. And then 441 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 2: after the election I hooked up with Alex Thompson of 442 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 2: Axios and we got to work on it. But it 443 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: was really just one of these books were like I 444 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 2: wanted to know the answer. I would have been happy 445 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 2: to read about it, but because nobody else was writing it, 446 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 2: I decided to write it. 447 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 1: So usc you decide you have to pay for it, 448 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: that's the end, the vicious ending of your movie career. 449 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 2: Well, except I wrote a book about Afghanistan. They turned 450 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 2: into a movie and I was an executive producer on that, 451 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 2: so it's not the vicious end of it. It's just 452 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 2: the pause of my director's. 453 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: Chair tell us about that movie, that book in that movie. 454 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 2: So the book is The Outpost, and it was one 455 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 2: of these books that I wrote that I would have 456 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 2: gladly just read, but nobody was telling the story. It 457 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 2: was about an outpost that was overrun in Afghanistan in 458 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 2: October third, two thousand and nine. It was built at 459 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 2: the bottom of three steep mountains and it was the 460 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 2: deadliest day for America in Afghanistan that year, two thousand 461 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 2: and nine. And after I was in the hospital room 462 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 2: because my son had just been born the day before, 463 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 2: and I was watching news reports about this outpost and 464 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 2: nobody could explain why it was built at the bottom 465 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,959 Speaker 2: of three steep mountains in this treacherous corner of Afghanistan, 466 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 2: right near the Pakistan border. And I waited for somebody 467 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,880 Speaker 2: to explain it to me, and nobody ever did months 468 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 2: and months and months, and then I started asking questions 469 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 2: and making phone calls, and then it became this book 470 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 2: about the existence of this outpost. And then other people 471 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 2: started reaching out who had served the outpost, hearing that 472 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 2: I was writing this book because I was just going 473 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 2: to focus on the battle in two thousand and nine, 474 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 2: and they would say oh no, I you know, we 475 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 2: were in charge of building the outpost in two thousand 476 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 2: and six and let me ex tell you our story. 477 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 2: And then it just became this bigger book. It became 478 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 2: kind of a metaphor for the war and the existence 479 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 2: of this outpost and the good intentions behind it and 480 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 2: why it was obviously such a mistake in the end. 481 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 2: And they turned that into a film. Rod Luriy directed it. 482 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 2: It was a Caleb Landry Jones and Orlando Bloom and 483 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 2: Scott Eastwood. Clint Eastwood's son did a good castme yes, 484 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 2: Scott and Milo Gibson was in a two Mel Gibson's 485 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 2: son and. 486 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: It was good. 487 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 2: It was a good movie. He did a really good 488 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 2: job Rod, and it was very authentic and a lot 489 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 2: of people who served there and served at other places 490 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 2: find that movie really meaningful and well done. It was 491 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 2: supposed to debut at the south By Southwest Festival in 492 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 2: March twenty twenty, and then COVID shut it down. So 493 00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 2: now as many people know about the film, but it's 494 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,120 Speaker 2: out there stream. Last I saw it was on Netflix. 495 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 2: I think you'd like it. I mean, it's it's really 496 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 2: it's really well done. 497 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 1: Now do you have to kind of get off of 498 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: a train I'm assuming to write a book. I mean, 499 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: you just you just steal the moments. 500 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 2: I steal the moments. And for me, I don't know 501 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 2: how you wrote yours, but for me, structure is the 502 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 2: most important part of writing a book, whether it's fiction 503 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,959 Speaker 2: or nonfiction. And I've written the three novels too, although 504 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 2: I find I'm going to talk. 505 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: To about that. 506 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 2: I find non fiction much easier. Of course it's what 507 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 2: I do day in, day out, but it's but fiction 508 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 2: I find much more difficult. 509 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 1: Do you enjoy it fiction? 510 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 2: I do? 511 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 1: Do you wish I had more time for it? 512 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 2: No? 513 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: I don't. 514 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 2: I don't. 515 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: But you wrote a series of about about a couple. 516 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 2: I wrote a series of murder mysteries. 517 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 518 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 2: I wrote a series Charlie and Margaret Martyr. The first 519 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 2: one is The hell Fire Club, takes place during the 520 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 2: Joe McCarthy years. The second one is The Devil May Dance, 521 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 2: takes place during the rat Pack years. And the third 522 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 2: one is All the Demons Are Here. It takes place 523 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 2: in in nineteen seventy seven. And actually right now I'm 524 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 2: talking to I've I'm working with some folks out in 525 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 2: Hollywood about turning the second one, the rat Pack one, 526 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 2: into a possible streamer. 527 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 1: Was there a period there where You're saying to your wife, no, honey, 528 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: I gotta go to Vegas. It's research for my book. 529 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:17,479 Speaker 1: I got it. 530 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 2: There's only I don't think actually we have that many 531 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 2: scenes in Vegas. It's mostly palm springs in la But 532 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 2: you know, I wrote that actually during COVID, and that 533 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 2: was fun to write because you know, I'd be dealing 534 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 2: with COVID. This is back when I was broadcasting from 535 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 2: my garage, you know, above the garage during COVID, when 536 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 2: like studios were shut down, like from March twenty twenty 537 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,959 Speaker 2: to August twenty twenty, I was broadcasting from home and 538 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 2: during that period where I had free time because there 539 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 2: was no commute and you know, our kids were being 540 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 2: educated at home educated quote unquote, I would write a 541 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 2: scene and then I would come back to reality. And 542 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 2: it was very enjoyable because it was just like I'd 543 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 2: just spent two hours eating Italian food with the rat 544 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 2: Pack and that was a great rescue and respite from 545 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 2: the horror of that era. 546 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: I did this gambling movie called The Cooler, and I 547 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: got nominated for an Oscar for Best Supporting Actor. And 548 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: I go to dinner at this famous joint. 549 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 2: It's a great movie. That's William H. 550 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: Macy right, yeah, Bill Macy Yeah. And the guy that 551 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: directed it was a great guy who I just loved him, 552 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 1: Wayne Kramer. I'm going into this restaurant after the Oscars 553 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: to have dinner and there's Tina Sinatra. Oh wow, not Nancy. 554 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: There's Tina Sonata with a bevy of people at the table, 555 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 1: and she goes, somebody get this kid a script. Kid. 556 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: I was like, you know what the ninth This is 557 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 1: two thousand and three. I was in my forties, So 558 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: you go, somebody get this kid a script. He should 559 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: play pop in a movie. You should play my pop 560 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: in a movie. I'm going, oh my god. 561 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 2: I met her too. I met Tina too. She came 562 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 2: up to me. I was in La and she came 563 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: up to me. I was like waiting outside a restaurant, 564 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 2: and I told her, you know, I'm like, hey, I 565 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 2: wrote this book and your dad's a character in it. 566 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 2: And I sent her a copy of her of the book, 567 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 2: and she sent me a copy of hers. My portrayal 568 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 2: of him was not as a bad guy, but certainly 569 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 2: he was. He was a dark figure with suicide attempts 570 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 2: and all sorts of did he really Oh yeah, you 571 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 2: know what I learned about him when researching my book 572 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,479 Speaker 2: is really interesting. Ava Gardner really broke his heart and 573 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 2: he tried god suicide. But you know, one of the 574 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 2: things about Sinatra that people don't realize is the degree 575 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 2: to what he and JFK broke up. And in fact, 576 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 2: in that famous birthday party for President Kennedy at Madison 577 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 2: Square Garden and she sings when Rolyn Monroe sings, and 578 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 2: she's drunk and pilled out and just a complete mess. 579 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 2: And if you watch the whole thing, not just like 580 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 2: the sexy clip, if you watch the whole thing, you'll 581 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 2: say she's a complete and utter disaster. And she dies 582 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 2: a few months later. But Sinatra's not there. Frank Sinatra 583 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 2: is not there, and it's because they had this breakup. 584 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 2: And this is kind of like what inspired me to 585 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 2: write this book. JFK is going out to California, He's 586 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 2: going out to la This is a true story, and 587 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 2: Sinatra wants him to stay at his Rancho mirage right 588 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 2: near pul Springs estate and he builds a helipad, and 589 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 2: he has additional rooms added and he has phone lines 590 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 2: put in for the press, and people at the FBI 591 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: tell Robert Kennedy, the Attorney General, you can't be waging 592 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 2: war against the mob. And then your brother goes to 593 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,479 Speaker 2: Sinatra's house like Sinatra's he has mob ties. You know, 594 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 2: he's legitimately got mob tized, which he did. Sam Gankanna 595 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 2: and others were friends of his. And at that point, 596 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 2: Sinatra's connection to the Kennedy family is over because the 597 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 2: father had the stroke in December nineteen sixty two. That 598 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 2: was his real that was his close connection to the family. 599 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 2: And Bobby, who Sinatra hated, and who hated Sinatra. He 600 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 2: Kai bashes the visit. So Kennedy stays with like bing 601 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 2: cross be like the ultimate insult and exactly and the 602 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 2: guy who can really see and Sinatra when he gets 603 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 2: the news, he loses his shit and he takes a 604 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: sledgehammer to the helipad. And when I heard this story, 605 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 2: and it's a true story, when I heard it, I 606 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 2: was like, oh my god, I have to set my 607 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 2: next novel in this, and so I did. That's what 608 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 2: The devil My Dance is about. But in any case, 609 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 2: Like I just couldn't even that's a movie. I know, 610 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 2: I couldn't even believe it. And it's just like but 611 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,479 Speaker 2: but people don't realize the degree to which they like 612 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 2: they ended on bad terms that when Kennedy got assassinated, 613 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 2: he and Sinatra we're not friends anymore. 614 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: I have a theory about him, a funny theory. And 615 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: I'm ashamed to admit this or embarrassed, but not really. 616 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: And I thought, here's a guy I could have been 617 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: best friends with him. I could have been best friend. 618 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: Want to know what, because I would have told him 619 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 1: the truth. Yeah, I would have said, don't do that, 620 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: don't say this, don't you You're You're a person who 621 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: is you are a god in the music industry. 622 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 2: Now, like a lot a lot of guys get so 623 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 2: big in their career, they don't want that. 624 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: Right. 625 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 2: We all need it. We all need it. I need it, 626 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 2: You need it. We all need somebody. And if you're 627 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 2: lucky enough, that person might be your spouse, even I 628 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 2: mean that's my case, and also my staff. My staff 629 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 2: will tell me also. But I think that's one of 630 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 2: the problems Trump has. I think that's one of the 631 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 2: problems Biden had I think, you know, I think a 632 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 2: lot of times you need people like that to say no, 633 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 2: don't do that bad idea. And you know those guardrails 634 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 2: are necessary. But I'm sure you and that's not just 635 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 2: take away your dream. I mean, you know, when you 636 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 2: when you go to bed, if you want to have 637 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 2: a dream about being in the rap pack, I think 638 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 2: you'd be a good one. 639 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: Journalist and author Jake Tapper, If you're enjoying this conversation, 640 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the 641 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify, or wherever you'll get 642 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: your podcasts when we come back. Jake Tapper takes us 643 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: behind the scenes of his first presidential debate in twenty fifteen. 644 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 645 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: Jake Tapper has moderated several high profile presidential debates for CNN. 646 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: He first moderated the twenty fifteen GOP primary debate, which 647 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: drew a record number of viewers. In twenty nineteen and 648 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, Tapper co moderated key Democratic debates, as well 649 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: as the infamous and only Biden Trump general election debate 650 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four, alongside Dana Bash. Praised for his 651 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: thorough preparation, Tapper nonetheless faced criticism for not fact checking Live. 652 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: I was curious if Tapper relished the opportunity to earn 653 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: such a high profile assignment. 654 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 2: Oh no, I was terrified, right, terrified. I had done 655 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 2: debates before, primary debates, never a presidential It's one of 656 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 2: those things you know you have to do. I don't know, 657 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 2: is it maybe like when you were cast in Streetcar. 658 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 2: I don't know, Like, you know you have to do it, 659 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 2: and you know you hope you're going to rise to it. 660 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 2: But god, it was nerve wracking. 661 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: I have to block out the intrusive thoughts when I'm 662 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: doing street Car. Yeah, that was tough. And then I 663 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: met him. I had lunch with him at his house 664 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: in La and I said, I said, I know, I 665 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: did street Car. He goes, yeah, I heard about that 666 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: from my friends. They said they saw you and then 667 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: you were very very good. You were very good. Oh yeah, 668 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: And he goes, I know. My friends told me you 669 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: tried to make it funny, and I wish I had 670 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: done that because it's a very funny part. There's a 671 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: lot of humor in that part and I wish I'd 672 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: done that. And there's a long pause, and I go, 673 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: but you're happy with the way it worked out, correct, 674 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: I mean, it all worked out for you, you know 675 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: the way you did. You chose to do it. And 676 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: he's like, now, the one thing I'm always into is 677 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: you did a lot of reporting about Enron. 678 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 2: I did back in the day. 679 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: When you reported that story. Do you think that that's 680 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: business as usual now everyone's doing the same thing. 681 00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 2: It's so funny you say that, because I do this 682 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 2: show called You United States of Scandal. It's a just 683 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 2: like a six episode show that we do like once 684 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 2: every year or two. And in the second season we 685 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 2: did Enron. And I went back and looked at the 686 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 2: stuff I did covering Enron in I guess that was 687 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 2: two thousand and one, two thousand and two, and I had, 688 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 2: you know, some really good sources, and so I was 689 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 2: able to break some good stories there. People went to 690 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 2: prison in Enron, and I think that people don't go 691 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 2: to prison for that kind of thing anymore. It feels 692 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 2: that way, doesn't it, Like, I mean, nobody or very 693 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 2: few people. I mean, it depends on how you do 694 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 2: the math. But like the housing crisis in two thousand 695 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:40,399 Speaker 2: and eight and all the slimy chicanery that went on there. 696 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 2: I don't think anybody major went to prison despite the 697 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 2: fact that they were making millions, hundreds of millions of 698 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 2: dollars off of the despair of the American people. 699 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: The run thing always pushes me toward this idea that 700 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: and this is one of the most passionate things for me. 701 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 1: That I just drives me insane. And that is this 702 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: country and conservatives and think tanks and everybody who were 703 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: the framework, if you will, of the conservative pro business 704 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 1: movement or pro business consciousness. They are all the same 705 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: and this is one of their greatest successes. But if 706 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: I stand up and I advocate for no oil drilling, 707 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: and there's nothing in it for me, right, nothing in 708 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,280 Speaker 1: it for me, right. Yeah, that's why people dismiss you. 709 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: When the head of an oil company stands up and 710 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: testifies on behalf of legislation and wants to change legislation, 711 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: so he's going to get millions of dollars worth of 712 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 1: stock oppers when they come down the other end of 713 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: the pipeline. I'm like, that doesn't bother you. People who 714 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:30,720 Speaker 1: will motivate, But in America. It doesn't. 715 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 2: It doesn't, it doesn't. 716 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 1: You're right, look at those guys who are like, well, 717 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: ex officiow, that's his job. I mean, yes, job. 718 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 2: Well, it's also just why people. I mean, it polls 719 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 2: well to tax the wealthier individuals. But it's not the 720 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 2: slam dunk with every community that you think it might be. 721 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,359 Speaker 2: Because people think that they're going to be rich someday too. 722 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 2: That is part of the American. 723 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 1: Yes, although Gray Davis was a good guy. I liked 724 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: him his persona when he was in office. He was 725 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: a good guy. He is a good guy. I liked 726 00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: him a lot. 727 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 2: I mean that recall I went out to LA I 728 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 2: had just started at ABC News, and Diane Sawyer and 729 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,919 Speaker 2: the executive producer of Good Morning America, Shelly Ross, took 730 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:09,359 Speaker 2: a shine to me and they sent me out there 731 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 2: to cover the recall. And wow, what a goat fuck 732 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,919 Speaker 2: that was. Do you remember Arianna Huffington was running. Yes, 733 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,320 Speaker 2: here's a little lesson for anybody young listening. The reason 734 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 2: that Diane Sawyer and Shelley Ross took a shine to 735 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 2: me and this is I had just started at ABC. 736 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 2: I was staying in corporate housing in DC. They just 737 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 2: moved me back from New York, where I lived for 738 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 2: a year, and Arnold had announced on I think the 739 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 2: Tonight Show with Jay Leno that he was running for governor, 740 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 2: And so the email went out internally at ABC, and 741 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 2: I reached out to Diane and Shelley and said, oh, 742 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 2: I'd love it was like nine o'clock at night. I'd 743 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,880 Speaker 2: love to come in right now do a piece for 744 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 2: tomorrow morning about Arnold running. And I have all these 745 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 2: ideas for clips from movies that he did that we 746 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 2: can make fun for the viewer and blah blah blah. 747 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 2: And they liked it and like it was. Honestly, just 748 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 2: raising your hand and doing the work is and I'm 749 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 2: sure this has been the experience in your career as well, 750 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 2: just raising your hand and doing the work. 751 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: You know, people say, why do I do the podcast? 752 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,719 Speaker 1: I have a chance to do not a deep dive, 753 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,280 Speaker 1: but certainly a deep bird dive than what I see. 754 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 1: I'm reading this article in an older New Yorker now 755 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: where the guy is writing Menanda is writing a review 756 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: of the William F. 757 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 2: Buckley book. Oh yeah, I find Buckley so intriguing. You 758 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 2: should have Chris on Chris Buckley. I wonder what he 759 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 2: thinks about this biography. 760 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:28,839 Speaker 1: Interesting, that's a good cue, that's a good call. 761 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 2: He is so fascinated. Do you know the story about 762 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 2: when Buckley got a guy out of prison. It's this 763 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 2: fascinating story. William F. Buckley takes on the charge of 764 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 2: this guy who's in prison who insists he's innocent, and 765 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 2: Buckley lobbies for him. And the guy's very literate and 766 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 2: has self taught and is a writer. And then the 767 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 2: guy gets out and he tries to kill someone else. 768 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 2: He was guilty the whole time. 769 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: Jack Henry, Yeah, but is a guy that Mailer helped 770 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:56,439 Speaker 1: to get. 771 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 2: Sprung and he was guilty too. 772 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,080 Speaker 1: And then he went out, well he went out. I 773 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: think he tried to kill somebody else. 774 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,760 Speaker 2: So that's incredible that Buckley did it. So Buckley did it. 775 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:06,720 Speaker 2: It's incredible. One thing they have in common, the bucks 776 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 2: of Buckley. Buckley picks him up from prison, drives him 777 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 2: to the studio and they shoot two episodes of firing 778 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 2: Line in a row. And I mean, and by the way, 779 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 2: I'd like I have no doubt that Buckley was convinced 780 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 2: that the guy was innocent, and this was noble and 781 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 2: he was trying to do a good thing. And I'm 782 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 2: not making light of it at all, but it's just 783 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 2: a fascinating and horrifying story. 784 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,399 Speaker 1: That's a great doc to compare and contrast the two 785 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 1: of them advocating. 786 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:34,839 Speaker 2: I didn't know Malely did that. I need to look 787 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:35,320 Speaker 2: up mailer. 788 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: Let me just say, I'm a huge fan of yours. 789 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much. Ellen. 790 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 1: My news diet. But I come home and I'm down 791 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 1: on a couch. My kids are having their dinner, and 792 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: I don't bother having dinner with them anymore because they 793 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 1: just ignore me. And then and then we hang out afterward. 794 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: But I sit down in front of a TV and 795 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 1: watch the lead nearly every day. That's a big part 796 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: of my news feed. 797 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. That's very very kind of you. 798 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 1: My thanks to journalist and author Jake Tapper. This episode 799 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 1: was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City and 800 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 1: Monk Music in Easthampton, New York. We're produced by Kathleen Brusso, 801 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: Zach MacNeice, and Victoria de Martin. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. 802 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. 803 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: Here's the thing. Is brought to you by iHeart Radio