1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, we have some exciting news to share. ABC 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: News Studios has turned Caroline Bregas story from Betrayal season 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: four into a docuseriies. You'll get to meet the people involved, 4 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: you'll hear from people who have never spoken before, and 5 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: you get to see where this story took place. We 6 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: are so proud and excited to share it with you all. 7 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: Stream Betrayal Dirty Secrets now on Hulu or Hulu for 8 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: Disney Plus. Hey, guys, before we dive into the episode, 9 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: we have exciting news. Betrayal is coming to substack, which 10 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: is an online community. We're calling our substack Beyond Betrayal, 11 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: a place where we dive deeper into the stories you 12 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: hear on this show. Please consider joining our community to 13 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: gain access to exclusive content, engage with me and subjects, 14 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: as well as connect with others who have experienced betrayal. 15 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: Just head to Betrayal dot substack that's sub stack, or 16 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: just go to substack dot com, search by on Betrayal 17 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: and hit subscribe. I want to go back to where 18 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: we started with the Kerr family, back to early in 19 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: the series, when we learned that Caroline's husband Joel had 20 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: been caught having sex in his police car the day 21 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: Joel was put on disciplinary leave pending termination. He could 22 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: no longer keep his secret life a secret, so he 23 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: finally came clean, and after an emotional family meeting, Joel 24 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: awkwardly pulled at his wedding ring, trying to pry it 25 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: off his hand. 26 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: He never removed his wedding ring. He always kept an on, 27 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: so he struggled for a long time, but finally gets 28 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 2: his ring off. Inside of it, I had engraved Forever 29 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 2: and Ever, and Joel sets it down on the fireplace 30 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 2: and just walked out the door. 31 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: It was April eleventh of twenty twenty two, day the 32 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: world no longer made sense to Caroline. She was at 33 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: home with Nicole, just reeling and she needed her people. 34 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: One of those people was a woman. We're going to 35 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: call Suzanne. We have disguised her voice to protect her privacy. 36 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 3: I remember exactly where we were. There was about seven 37 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 3: or eight of us in the car going up to 38 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 3: the Journey concert up in Denver. A friend was the 39 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 3: one who received the phone call, and I was sitting 40 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 3: right behind her, and her reaction was, oh my god, 41 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 3: is he okay? And I'm like, oh my god. 42 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: Suzanne's first fear was that Joel had been injured in 43 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:39,519 Speaker 1: the line of duty. 44 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 3: And then this other person told me that Joel was 45 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,839 Speaker 3: having an affair and that Caroline said that her life 46 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 3: is about to fall apart. 47 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: I said, you know, let's go home. 48 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 3: So we literally pulled off the highway and pulled into 49 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 3: US seven to eleven. 50 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: They jumped out of that car and got a ride 51 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: to Caroline's house. There were no words that could make 52 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: it better, so Suzanne didn't try. She just listened and 53 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:08,799 Speaker 1: cried with Caroline. 54 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 3: And we literally must have sat at the table with 55 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 3: wine and food from about seven o'clock so about eleven 56 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 3: thirty that night. While we're there, Caroline said that Joel 57 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 3: was having an affair. He was having an affair with 58 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 3: multiple people. 59 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: Suzanne's chest tightened as she watched Caroline unravel. Her heart 60 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: was broken for her friend. That night would be the 61 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: first of many they'd spend together a Caroline's kitchen table. 62 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: What Suzanne could have never imagined was that she would 63 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: soon need Caroline to return the favor. I'm Andrea Gunning 64 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: and this is Trail Season four, episode nine, three Little Birds. 65 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: Over the past several episodes, we've pulled back the curtain 66 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: on Caroline's family and the unraveling of her marriage to 67 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: Joel Kern. Through conversations with relatives, close friends, and former 68 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: officers from the Colorado Springs Police Department, we've worked a 69 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: piece together, a complex and often painful story. Before we 70 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: wrapped up this season, we decided to make another trip 71 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: out to Colorado Springs. It looked a lot different on 72 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: our last visit. The streets were blanketed in snow, and 73 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:46,119 Speaker 1: we carefully navigated the mountain town, taking in its winter beauty. 74 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: This time, spring was in the air, and along with 75 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 1: the change of seasons, there were changes in the lives 76 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: of Caroline and her friends. 77 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 2: I'm like, this just must be for you, because this 78 00:04:58,120 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 2: is not a. 79 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: The first time we visited Colorado Springs to meet Caroline, 80 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 1: we were warmly welcomed into her Sunday supper club at home, 81 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 1: surrounded by her close friends. We shared a meal, some wine, 82 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: and plenty of laughter, and gave us a glimpse into 83 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: her support system, the people who had stood by her 84 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: through the discovery of Joel's betrayal. Suzanne was often at 85 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: these dinners, but not that night. She was working training 86 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: for a new job. Her husband was there though, and 87 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: spoke about his wife with great affection. When we returned recently, 88 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: we joined Caroline and Suzanne on a walk. It was 89 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 1: a windy one around a nearby lake. On a typical 90 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,119 Speaker 1: Colorado day. It was sunny with a view of Pike's Peak, 91 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: but that quickly changed to cloud's rolling in around us. 92 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: Caroline recalled the unconditional support she had received from Suzanne 93 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: and her husband in her time of need. 94 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 2: He and Suzanne had had been at my house when 95 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 2: my life blew up. 96 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 1: Witnessing Caroline's distress, Suzanne and her husband held each other 97 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: a little closer, seeing firsthand how quickly a relationship can 98 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: be decimated as an unsettling effect. 99 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 2: They were the people who said, Uh, you got to 100 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 2: get up so that we can go to Nicole's lacrosse game. 101 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 2: We're going to sit with you in the stands. We're 102 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 2: going to be next to Hey, this awards things going 103 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 2: on tonight. You don't need to go to that alone. 104 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 2: We're going to go with you. 105 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: They were those friends. They showed up, and they were 106 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: one of those couples who truly enjoyed life together, running 107 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: marathon side by side, always up for an adventure. They 108 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: had met years earlier in another part of the country 109 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: and moved to Colorado Springs, but something beside the weather 110 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: had shifted since we were last in Colorado, something in 111 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: Suzanne's marriage. A few months ago, Caroline was a visiting 112 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: her daughter Nicole at college when she received a surprising 113 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: text from Suzanne. 114 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: The message said, Okay, I just want to let you 115 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: know I appreciate you and I value what you have 116 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 2: gone through. I've been thinking about you a lot, and 117 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 2: I said, I really appreciate that. And then I got 118 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 2: another text saying, Hey, when you get home, let's sit 119 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 2: down and chat. 120 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: The words of support weren't unusual, but it wasn't like 121 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: Suzanne to wait to chat in person. Normally, she'd just call. 122 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 3: Knowing what she had been through and knowing what she 123 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 3: was going through, I did not want to Ruin a weekend. 124 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: While Caroline was away, Suzanne stumbled upon something in her 125 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: own home that changed her entire life. Eighteen years into 126 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: their marriage, Suzanne discovered a series of emails that crossed 127 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: the line. Messages her husband had been exchanging with women online, 128 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: and he had a fetish she knew nothing about. That's 129 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: all we can say legally about it. As she kept reading, 130 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: it became clear this had been going on for a 131 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: long time. 132 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 3: After seeing the emails that I had seen, and I 133 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 3: just needed to run. 134 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: When Caroline returned home, Suzanne shared the whole story. 135 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 3: The biggest hurt for me is that he would do 136 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 3: this and not be open enough in our marriage after 137 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 3: all that we've gone through, But that after hearing Caroline's 138 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 3: story and going through everything for the last couple of years, 139 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 3: you didn't think about sitting me down and saying, I 140 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 3: got to tell you something like you don't think like 141 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 3: what kind of secret keeping? 142 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 4: Is that? 143 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: Many women would have walked away if their husband confessed 144 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: to this behavior. Suzanne was the type of person that 145 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: would have been open to rebuilding if he had told 146 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: her the truth and if he was committed to addressing 147 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: the behavior. 148 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 3: And then in the end to find out that this 149 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 3: biggest secret that you had, you've kept for so many years. 150 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 3: Instead of getting help, he was. 151 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: Someone who was helping and supporting Caroline, knowing full well 152 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,479 Speaker 1: the entire time that he was engaging in betrayal himself. 153 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: Caroline was shaken, stunned. Really, Suzanne's husband was part of 154 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: her inner circle. 155 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 2: He was an ally. He saw the pain the kids 156 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 2: and I went through like he witnessed the tears first hand. 157 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: Suzanne was devastated. She had always believed her husband was 158 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 1: the most loyal man in the world. He was her person, 159 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: so she told him to leave. They separated, and Suzanne 160 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: was left feeling lonely, distraught, and trying to make sense 161 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: of the life she thought she knew. Caroline was furious. 162 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 2: My anger toward him. I couldn't even hide it when 163 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 2: she disclosed to me what happened. I had just this 164 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 2: utmost hurt for her because of knowing what your chapter 165 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 2: of life has been and how long you've been with someone, 166 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 2: and then to think now I have to start over 167 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 2: and figure life out by myself, Like how do you 168 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 2: recover from that? And knowing the array of emotions that 169 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: were about ready to come was so heartbreaking to watch. 170 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: Caroline had firsthand knowledge of what lay ahead. She knew 171 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: the grief that accompanies betrayal and how it shakes you 172 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: to your core. It doesn't just break your heart, it 173 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: takes a toll on your whole body. 174 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 3: I've called her a couple of times, especially where I'm like, 175 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 3: I just can't breathe. She's like, Okay, stop, what happened. 176 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 5: Nothing happened. I just can't breathe. 177 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 3: I've had panic attacks, anxiety attacks, emotional attacks. 178 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: The weight of the separation really hit Suzanne after a 179 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: trip to visit her family. 180 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 3: Coming home from visiting family is another rough day, ironically, 181 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 3: because you come back to a life that is not 182 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 3: what you used to come back to. I don't have 183 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 3: that confidant and that person at my house to lean 184 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 3: on for Caroline. 185 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: That's a familiar feeling. It's one she remembers well from 186 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: those first days of being an empty nester. 187 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 2: Shortly after it was just me. Nicole had loved for 188 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 2: school and it was just me lost in silence at 189 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: the house. 190 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: So instead of being alone, Caroline would spend time with 191 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: people like Suzanne, friends who felt like family. Suzanne is 192 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: still in those early days. 193 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 3: I'm new at it right now, and I don't have 194 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 3: three years in I'm starting to think of it like 195 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 3: a death. You know, it never goes away. You compartmentalize 196 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 3: to be part of who you are now and it 197 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 3: makes you who you are in the future. But I 198 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 3: don't think it ever goes away. 199 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: I wondered how long it takes for this trauma and 200 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: loss to no longer be the first thing you remember 201 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: when you open your eyes in the morning. 202 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 2: I actually just had a conversation with Nicole about this today. 203 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 2: She her brother, and myself. We've confessed to each other 204 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 2: that a day does not start without remembering what he did. 205 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: Suzanne shares the same experience. 206 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 3: I can have a good time going out with friends 207 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 3: and doing things, and then as soon as I turn 208 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 3: the corner to my house, bam, it all hits me again. 209 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,719 Speaker 3: I wake up in the morning and I realize that 210 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 3: my house is empty. 211 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: Having a close friend who knows that. 212 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 3: Feeling, I wouldn't trade her for anybody in the world 213 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 3: right now, because she does get it and she can 214 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 3: answer those questions. The fact that you can have a 215 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 3: friend that has these conversations with you is far and 216 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 3: few between. 217 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 2: I would never, ever, ever, ever wish this on anyone ever. 218 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 2: I would never want anyone to have the shock in 219 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 2: awe and have to sit and relive and then rethink 220 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 2: your entire life and question if your family and marriage 221 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 2: was a fraud. I never want anyone to ever experience 222 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 2: that ever. And I think there's this piece of me 223 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: that feels attached to Susanna. As a result of this. 224 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 5: I've learned a lot from her. 225 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 3: She has taught me to be more open and honest 226 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 3: in my feelings about stuff. We're still being incredibly brutally honest, 227 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 3: where other times in friendships you don't have that opportunity 228 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 3: to be. 229 00:13:53,960 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 5: I love you, I love you too. 230 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: As we were getting closer to wrapping up Caroline's story, 231 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: I asked her to join me to talk about what 232 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: it has been like making this podcast. We've also seen 233 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: a lot of listener feedback this season and received emails 234 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: from people associated with the CSPD, and some of it 235 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: is pretty shocking. Here are some of our conversation Caroline. 236 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: I am so grateful that you shared your story with 237 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: us this season, and I'm curious about your experience. Would 238 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: you say it's been therapeutic. 239 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 2: For you doing this was very helpful? I mean it 240 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 2: wasn't just helpful to be able to finally say my truth, 241 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 2: finally tell my side, but I will also tell you 242 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 2: what was something that was also very helpful and very 243 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 2: therapeutic and very cathartic. What a lot of people don't 244 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 2: know about this podcast is everything I say is vetted. 245 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 2: There is nothing that I can recount or big moments 246 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 2: that is not fact checked, is not looked through by 247 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 2: or coroborated by two, three, four other parties. Being able 248 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 2: to have someone validate that this occurred, it was extremely important. 249 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I imagine that can be really powerful because it's 250 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: validating your lived experience. 251 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 252 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: I want to move on to some comments from listeners, 253 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: and one thing I can say is people were really 254 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: invested in your story. Are you down to hear some 255 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: of them? I love to, Okay, The first one I'm 256 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: going to share is from a former CSPD officer. He writes, 257 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: Dear Betrayal podcast host and team, I've been listening to 258 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: Betrayal season four, and I feel the need to share 259 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: how deeply the story affected me. I was one class 260 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: behind Juel Kern. Hearing what he did the multiple affairs, 261 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: lying to internal affairs and his family was shocking. What 262 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: devastated me even more was hearing how the department supported him. Meanwhile, 263 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: I served with honor for nearly fifteen years. I continuously 264 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: put my life on the line for this city. I 265 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: suffered a mental breakdown on the job and was later 266 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: diagnosed with PTSD and a traumatic brain injury, both directly 267 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: tied to my service. I never disgraced the badge. All 268 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: I did was ask for help, and I was denied 269 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: again and again. The department psychologist said he didn't actually 270 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: provide mental health care. I lost my job, I lost 271 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: my identity. My family and I have built our entire 272 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: life around my police career. Suddenly it was gone. I 273 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: spiraled into nearly a decade of depression. I drank heavily. 274 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: I was suicidal. At first. Listening to this podcast made 275 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: me sick. Then I felt ashamed, ashamed that I had 276 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: ever worn the same badge. But as I kept listening, 277 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: I became angry because I remember the culture and unethical 278 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: behavior among command staff. My betrayal didn't come from a spouse. 279 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: It came from the department. I loved, the one I 280 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: believed would stand behind me the way I stood behind 281 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: the public. It didn't thank you for telling hard stories. 282 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: They matter. They remind the world that some of us 283 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: were thrown away, not because we failed, but because we 284 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: were no longer convenient. I won't share the name of 285 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 1: the email, but I think I think you know this individual. 286 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 2: I know who this person is and what their role 287 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 2: was in the department and their role was what you 288 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: think of a police officer doing. I mean, you think 289 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 2: of this person as engaging in heroic acts and very 290 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:16,360 Speaker 2: dangerous situations and circumstances. And knowing what this person did 291 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 2: and what his assignment was, this email fills me with 292 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 2: so much emotion. It just makes me feel nauseated to 293 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 2: know that someone like him was cast aside and not 294 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 2: provided the assistance and help that truly could have saved 295 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 2: his career, truly could have saved him as an individual. 296 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 2: It's just incredibly disheartening to me. It is disheartening. I mean, 297 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 2: I guess all I can say is I'm grateful for 298 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 2: this person's service and grateful that they felt safe enough 299 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 2: to write in and share their story with us. And 300 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,679 Speaker 2: I hope this person feels hurt and appreciated. He's very 301 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 2: much appreciated. 302 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: Okay, This next email interesting because it's not just from 303 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: a different state, it's a different country. She writes, thank 304 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 1: you for putting season four out. I was married to 305 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: a former police officer in Calgary who is almost the 306 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: same person as Joel Kern. The only difference is that 307 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: the Calgary Police Service swept it all under the rug. 308 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 1: My ex was able to resign in twenty twenty one 309 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: while under five investigations. Since he chose to resign before 310 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: he was fired, he has no record and can become 311 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: a police officer anywhere in Canada. Unfortunately, these psychopaths get 312 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: away with their crimes. Thank you for making these things known. 313 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: It is wild that someone in Canada has such a 314 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: similar experience to you. Is that surprising to you. 315 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 2: I don't think that my story is necessarily an anomaly 316 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 2: in the sense that I was married to a police officer. 317 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 2: I knew what I was getting when I was married 318 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 2: to a cop. I knew that he would have to 319 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 2: work nights. I knew that there would be weird hours. 320 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 2: I knew there would be times he would not be 321 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 2: able to be home for holidays or special events. These 322 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 2: are things that I accepted. What I did not sign 323 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 2: up for, and I did not accept, was for him 324 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 2: to deface his badge and was for him to defy 325 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 2: our marital vows. I did not sign up for that, right. 326 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: No, you didn't, and I think it's safe to say 327 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 1: that in your case, and I would argue in the 328 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: case of the person that wrote in that all the 329 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: allowances you guys made to help accommodate their job and 330 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 1: their work schedules were exploited. 331 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, one hundred percent. 332 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to talk about one more email, and 333 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 1: it was one that we recently received and it was 334 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: a shock to our team when we received it. We 335 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 1: said it to you. You've had some time to digest it. 336 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: I mean I should say it's a shock, but not 337 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 1: a complete surprise, because you know, having heard the number 338 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: of people Joel was having affairs with, it's tough. But 339 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: to your point earlier about validation, I think it's important 340 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 1: for us to discuss it. Okay, Okay, here we go 341 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 1: to the host of Betrayal podcast. I don't know if 342 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: my conscience will ever be clean, but writing you is 343 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: a first step. I am one of Joel Kerne's affairs. 344 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: Joel was my lieutenant and he held power. He also 345 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: made me believe we were in a relationship and had 346 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: a future. I remember seeing Caroline and talk to her 347 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: a few times. She'd show up to the substation with 348 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: dinner for him or cake and ice cream for everyone 349 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: for special occasions. She told our shift that everyone was 350 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: welcome to eat Thanksgiving dinner at their home if we 351 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: had nowhere to go. One year, she made Christmas dinner 352 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: for the entire shift and set up a photo booth. 353 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: I guess that's why it was flattering. When Joel started 354 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: complimenting me, he started flirting with me and sending messages. 355 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: When I was out, he asked what I look like 356 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: in regular clothes. Then he asked me to meet him 357 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: for dinner on shipt. Things started crossing the line and 358 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: getting romantic. I told him that I couldn't believe he 359 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: wanted someone like me when he had a pretty wife 360 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: and kids. He told me that Caroline was only good 361 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: to look at and said that she was sick with 362 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: arthritis and didn't pay attention to him. Joel said she 363 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: couldn't do anything or go anywhere. He said she was 364 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: always in bed and he couldn't divorce her since she 365 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: was so sick. I believed him. We had sex at 366 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 1: my house after work and a few times before. I 367 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: felt guilty when we had sex in his office because 368 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: of all the pictures of his wife and kids around. 369 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: He told me the pictures were for show. I started 370 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 1: to realize I wasn't the only one he was sleeping with. 371 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: I was embarrassed and ashamed. A friend showed his Facebook page. 372 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: I was so mad when I saw pictures of Joel 373 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: and Caroline after she ran a marathon. I confronted him 374 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: about her being sick. How did she run a marathon 375 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: if she was so sick. He laughed at me and 376 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 1: told me I didn't know what I was talking about. 377 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: I know I'm not the only affair he had at CSPD, 378 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: but every day I wish I wasn't one of the 379 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: people on his roster. If Caroline gets these emails, then 380 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: I want her to know that I'm very sorry and 381 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,439 Speaker 1: hope she can move forward. This email is a great 382 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 1: example of you know, what we explored in this season 383 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: is you know, as you're trying to move forward and 384 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: just live your life, you know, you take three steps 385 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: and then bam, new information, a new affair you didn't 386 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: see coming, and it's just another blow. It's just another hit. 387 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 2: I'm desensitized to hearing about affairs like that. Part doesn't 388 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 2: hit my soul hearing this email. The part that just 389 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 2: as a gut punch to me is hearing the manipulation 390 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 2: tactics and the lies used to garner his sexual affairs. 391 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 2: Very few people know that I have rheumatoid arthritis. Very 392 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 2: few people know that about me. 393 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 5: It is not. 394 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 2: Something that debilitates me and puts me bedridden. But for 395 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 2: him to have used that and told someone that to 396 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 2: manipulate them to have sex with him, it just sickens me. 397 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: It honestly just feels like nothing was off limits in 398 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: his pursuit. I mean, it's fascinating and horrifying how much 399 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: Joel was manipulating everyone in his orbit. 400 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 2: So a new friend from my women's group said something 401 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 2: to me that had just really stuck with me. She said, 402 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 2: it's like we were living in the Truman Show. Joel 403 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 2: was the director and the rest of us were just 404 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 2: cast members, just going along with the script without even 405 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 2: knowing it. There was the life that he lived with us, 406 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 2: or the one that you know that he pretended to 407 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 2: live with us, and then there was this version he 408 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 2: showed to people at work. None of it was real, 409 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: All of it was a performance. 410 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 1: I think this is a good time to mention. We 411 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: did reach out to Joel to give him the opportunity 412 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 1: to share on the podcast, but he did decline our 413 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: request for an interview. However, he did send us a 414 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: written statement and I'm going to read that now. Thank 415 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: you for reaching out. I understand the nature of the 416 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: series and appreciate the opportunity to respond. However, I've decided 417 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: not to participate in the podcast. I do want to 418 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 1: acknowledge that I've made mistakes and that others have their 419 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 1: own stories to tell. While I will not be adding 420 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: to the conversation publicly, I continue to reflect and work 421 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: on becoming a better version of myself. I ask that 422 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: this message be taken as my only comment. Sincerely, Joel. 423 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: Think it's fair to say that we're probably never going 424 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,959 Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of why Joel did what 425 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: he did, why he did this to your family, why 426 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: he did this to you. 427 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 2: But here's what I do know. 428 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: There are so many people who've been betrayed by a 429 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: partner and it's isolating, and it's deeply lonely, and hearing 430 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: your story, your honesty, your strength, your vulnerability, it might 431 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: be the moment someone else realizes that they're not alone. 432 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 2: Thank you for giving me the platform to do it. 433 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: After months getting to know Caroline and her world, we 434 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 1: had one more trip that we wanted to take to 435 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: watch her son run the Boss to Marathon. It wasn't 436 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: his first time running, but this was the first time 437 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: Caroline and Nicole would get to see him cross the 438 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: finish line. We were excited to go along. Before race day, 439 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: we all sat down at dinner together. Nicole was grateful 440 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: not just to have the whole family in one place, 441 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,959 Speaker 1: but to finally share this experience and to talk together 442 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: for the podcast. By the way, you'll hear the sounds 443 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: of the restaurant in the background. 444 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 2: This is our first time talking, all three of us. 445 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: Now that I had them all at one table, I 446 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,120 Speaker 1: wanted to ask them about something I noticed. Caroline has 447 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: lots of images of birds around in her home and 448 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 1: even in a tattoo. I asked the family about it, 449 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 1: and no would probably be the best for that. 450 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 2: So life blows up and we would check in with 451 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,719 Speaker 2: each other every day and we started talking about, you know, 452 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 2: just different mantras and how we kept going. And one 453 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 2: day my son said, I keep hearing the Bob Marley 454 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 2: song and it just keeps chanting like everything's going to 455 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 2: be all right. I actually thought to myself, how fitting that. 456 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 2: Obviously the chorus is everything is going to be all right, 457 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 2: But the title of the song is three Little birds. 458 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 2: And so we were a family of four, but we 459 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 2: really dwindled down to three and it just became three 460 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 2: little birds. And after that our mantra has been three 461 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 2: little birds or we sign everything off on to each 462 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 2: other TLB. It just has become our thing. 463 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: The next morning, we were off to the Boston Marathon. 464 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 2: His freshman year, he had the goal of doing this 465 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 2: and it was a big deal for him to train 466 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 2: and cross the finish line, and he was scheduled to 467 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 2: do this in April of twenty twenty two, and so 468 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 2: just a week before that was our designated d day 469 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 2: when Joel blew up our lives and we didn't know 470 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 2: if he would follow through with it, and he said 471 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 2: that it was a big deal for him to do it, 472 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 2: that training and being a part of something bigger was 473 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 2: just kind of keeping him on a path to heal 474 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 2: for himself since he was so far away, and to 475 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 2: keep his mind off of certain things. And so he 476 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 2: did it. 477 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: The first time he ran the marathon, Jeel's betrayal was 478 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: painfully fresh. 479 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 2: In the day that he did the race, Jewel called 480 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,239 Speaker 2: in the middle of the conversation. We were sitting in 481 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 2: a car, and Nicole actually had to say, you do 482 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 2: know that today is a bigger day than you. My 483 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 2: brother's doing this marathon and you completely forgot about it. 484 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 2: There's so much more that's bigger than you. Well, this 485 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 2: is the first year that we have actually gotten into 486 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 2: zim finish line. It's just been a slow just to 487 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 2: slow refurn, a slow achievement to try to keep going. 488 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 2: And if I were to tell you that I think 489 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 2: the kids and I will ever cross like a finish 490 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 2: line from the trauma that was caused, I just don't 491 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 2: think that's realistic. I think we can keep going, and 492 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 2: I think we can continue to figure out our way 493 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 2: through it. But I'm not sure that we'll really truly 494 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 2: ever understand no reasons why or really get over anything. 495 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 2: But we will get through it. 496 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: But today was a good day. Standing on the streets 497 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: of Boston near the finish line. The sky was clear, 498 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: and we cheered runners as they crossed. I was holding 499 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,719 Speaker 1: a sign that said free beer at finish line, and 500 00:30:54,760 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: we waited with anticipation for Caroline Son, be yourself enough. 501 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 2: The three of us have been through something that no 502 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 2: three other people will ever have gone exactly through, and 503 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 2: so to be able to say that we're still here 504 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 2: still standing, still achieving, and still together. I think that's incredible. 505 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: Pure joy, pure love. Maybe every little thing is imperfect, 506 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: but these three little birds are doing all right. Just 507 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: like the song said, that might. 508 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 4: Be my baby boy. 509 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season four. If you 510 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email 511 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: us at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal 512 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: Pod at gmail dot com. Also, please be sure to 513 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod and me Andrea H. 514 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: Gunning for all Betrayal content, news and updates. One way 515 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: to support the series is by subscribing to our show 516 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal five star reviews. 517 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: Help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is 518 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, 519 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced 520 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Betrayal is hosted and 521 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Kerrie Hartman, 522 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producers are Caitlin 523 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: Golden and Kristin Melcuri. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry 524 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: and Jessica Crincheck. Story editing by Monique Leboard, audio editing 525 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: by mattal Vecchio and Tanner Robbins and mixed by mattal 526 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: Vecchio and special thanks to Caroline and her family. Betrayal's 527 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by 528 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: mid Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the 529 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts