1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: Hey guys. Before we dive into the episode, we have 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: exciting news. Betrayal is coming to substack, which is an 3 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: online community. We're calling our substack Beyond Betrayal, a place 4 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: where we dive deeper into the stories you hear on 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: this show. Please consider joining our community to gain access 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: to exclusive content, engage with me and subjects, as well 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: as connect with others who have experienced betrayal. Just head 8 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: to Betrayal dot substack that's sub stack, or just go 9 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:38,559 Speaker 1: to substack dot com, search beyond Betrayal and hit subscribe. 10 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: I want to go back to where we started with 11 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,919 Speaker 1: the current family, back to early in the series, when 12 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: we learned that Caroline's husband Joel, had been caught having 13 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: sex in his police car. The day Joel was put 14 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: on disciplinary leave pending termination. He could no longer keep 15 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: his secret life a secret, so he finally came clean, 16 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: and after an emotional family meeting, Joel awkwardly pulled at 17 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: his wedding ring, trying to pry it off his hand. 18 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 2: He never removed his wedding ring, he always kept an on, 19 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 2: so he struggled for a long time, but finally gets 20 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 2: his ring off. Inside of it, I had engraved forever 21 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 2: and ever, and Joel sets it down on the fireplace 22 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 2: and just walked out the door. 23 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: It was April eleventh of twenty twenty two, the day 24 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: the world no longer made sense to Caroline. She was 25 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: at home with Nicole, just reeling and she needed her people. 26 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: One of those people was a woman. We're going to 27 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: call Suzanne. We've disguised her voice to protect her privacy. 28 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 3: I remember exactly where we were. There was about seven 29 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 3: or eight of us in the car going up to 30 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 3: the Journey concert up in Denver. A friend was the 31 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 3: one who received the phone call, and I was sitting 32 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 3: right behind her, and her reaction was, oh my god, 33 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:08,959 Speaker 3: is he okay? 34 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh my god. Suzanne's first fear was 35 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: that Joel had been injured in the line of duty. 36 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 3: And then this other person told me that Joel was 37 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 3: having an affair and that Caroline said that her life 38 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,239 Speaker 3: is about to fall apart. 39 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: I said, you know, let's go home. 40 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 3: So we literally pulled off the highway and pulled into 41 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 3: US seven eleven. 42 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: They jumped out of that car and got her ride 43 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: to Caroline's house. There were no words that could make 44 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: it better, so Suzanne didn't try. She just listened and 45 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: cried with Caroline. 46 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,399 Speaker 3: And we literally must have sat at the table with 47 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 3: you know, wine and food from about seven o'clock till 48 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 3: about eleven thirty that night. While we're there, Caroline said 49 00:02:58,440 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 3: that Joel was having an affair, was. 50 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: Having an affair with multiple people. Suzanne's chest tightened as she 51 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: watched Caroline unravel. Her heart was broken for her friend. 52 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: That night would be the first of many they'd spend 53 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: together at Caroline's kitchen table. What Suzanne could have never 54 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: imagined was that she would soon need Caroline to return 55 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: the favor. I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, Season four, 56 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: Episode nine, three Little Birds. Over the past several episodes, 57 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: we've pulled back the curtain on Caroline's family and the 58 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:53,839 Speaker 1: unraveling of her marriage to Joel Kern. Through conversations with relatives, 59 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: close friends, and former officers from the Colorado Springs Police Department, 60 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: we've worked a peace together a complex and often painful story. 61 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: Before we wrapped up this season, we decided to make 62 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: another trip out to Colorado Springs. It looked a lot 63 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: different on our last visit. The streets were blanketed in snow, 64 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: and we carefully navigated the mountain town, taking in its 65 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: winter beauty. This time, spring was in the air, and 66 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: along with the change of seasons, there were changes in 67 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: the lives of Caroline and her friends. 68 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 2: I'm like, this just must be for you, because this 69 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 2: is not. 70 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: The first time we visited Colorado Springs to meet Caroline. 71 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: We were warmly welcomed into her Sunday supper club at home, 72 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: surrounded by her close friends. We shared a meal, some wine, 73 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: and plenty of laughter, and gave us a glimpse into 74 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: her support system, the people who had stood by her 75 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: through the discovery of Joel's betrayal. Suzanne was often at 76 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: these dinners, but not that night. She was working training 77 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: for a new job. Her husband was there, though, and 78 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: spoke about his wife with great affection. When we returned recently, 79 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 1: we joined Caroline and Suzanne on a walk. It was 80 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: a windy one around a nearby lake on a typical 81 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 1: Colorado day. It was sunny with a view of Pike's Peak, 82 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 1: but that quickly changed to Cloud's rolling in around us. 83 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,799 Speaker 1: Caroline recalled the unconditional support she had received from Suzanne 84 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: and her husband in her time of need. 85 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 2: He and Suzanne had been at my house when my 86 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 2: life blew up. 87 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: Witnessing Caroline's distress, Suzanne and her husband held each other 88 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: a little closer. Seeing firsthand how quickly a relationship can 89 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: be decimated, has an unsettling effect. 90 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 2: They were the people who said, uh, you got to 91 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 2: get up so that we can go to Nicole's lacross game. 92 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 2: We're going to sit with you in the stands. We're 93 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 2: going to be next to Hey, this awards thing's going 94 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 2: on tonight. You don't need to go to that alone. 95 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 2: We're going to go with you. 96 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: They were those friends. They showed up and they were 97 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,679 Speaker 1: one of those couples who truly enjoyed life together, running 98 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: marathon side by side, always up for an adventure. They 99 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: had met years earlier in another part of the country 100 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: and moved to Colorado Springs. But something beside the weather 101 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: had shifted since we were last in Colorado, something in 102 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: Suzanne's marriage. A few months ago, Caroline was away visiting 103 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: her daughter Nicole at college when she received a surprising 104 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: text from Suzanne. The message said. 105 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 2: Okay, I just want to let you know I appreciate 106 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 2: you and I value what you have gone through. I've 107 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 2: been thinking about you a lot, and I said, I 108 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 2: really appreciate that. And then I got another text saying, Hey, 109 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 2: when you get home, let's sit down and chat. 110 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: The words of support weren't unusual, but it wasn't like 111 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 1: Suzanne to wait to chat in person. Normally, she'd just call. 112 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 3: Knowing what she had been through and knowing what she 113 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 3: was going through, I did not want to Ruin a weekend. 114 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: While Caroline was away, Suzanne stumbled upon something in her 115 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: own home that changed her entire life. Eighteen years into 116 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: their marriage, Suzanne discovered a series of emails that crossed 117 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: the line. Messages her husband had been exchanging with women 118 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: online and he had a fetish. She knew nothing about. 119 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: That's all we can say legally about it. As she 120 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: kept reading, it became clear this had been going on 121 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: for a long time. 122 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 3: After seeing the emails that I had seen, and I 123 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 3: just needed to run. 124 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: When Caroline returned home, Suzanne shared the whole story. 125 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 3: The biggest hurt for me is that he would do 126 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 3: this and not be open enough in our marriage after 127 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 3: all that we've gone through. But that after hearing Caroline's 128 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 3: story and going through everything for the last couple of years. 129 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: You didn't think about. 130 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 3: Sitting me down and saying, I got to tell you 131 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 3: something like you don't think like what kind of secret 132 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 3: keeping is. 133 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: That Many women would have walked away if their husband 134 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: confessed to this behavior. Suzanne was the type of person 135 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: that would have been open to rebuilding if he had 136 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: told her the truth, and if he was committed to 137 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: addressing the behavior. 138 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 3: And then in the end to find out that this 139 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 3: biggest secret that you had, you've kept for so many years. 140 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 3: Instead of getting help, he was. 141 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: Someone who was helping and supporting Caroline, knowing full well 142 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: the entire time that he was engaging in betrayal himself. 143 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: Caroline was shaken, stunned. Really, Suzanne's husband was part of 144 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: her inner circle. 145 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 2: He was an ally. He saw the pain the kids 146 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,839 Speaker 2: and I went through like he witnessed the tears first hand. 147 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: Suzanne was devastated. She had always believed her husband was 148 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: the most loyal man in the world. He was her person, 149 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: so she told him to leave. They separated, and Suzanne 150 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: was left feeling lonely, distraught, and trying to make sense 151 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 1: of the life she thought she knew. Caroline was furious. 152 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 2: My anger toward him. I couldn't even hide it. When 153 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 2: she disclosed to me what happened. I had just this 154 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 2: utmost hurt for her because of knowing what your chapter 155 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 2: of life has been and how long you've been with someone, 156 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 2: and then to think now I have to start over 157 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 2: and figure life out by myself, Like how do you 158 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 2: recover from that? And knowing the array of emotions that 159 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 2: were about ready to come was so heartbreaking to watch. 160 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: Caroline had first hand knowledge of what lay ahead. She 161 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: knew the grief that accompanies betrayal and how it shakes 162 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: you to your core. It doesn't just break your heart, 163 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: it takes a toll on your whole body. 164 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 3: I've called her a couple of times, especially where I'm 165 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 3: like I just can't breathe. 166 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 4: She's like, Okay, stop, what happened? 167 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 3: Nothing happened. 168 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 4: I just can't breathe. 169 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 3: I've had panic attacks, anxiety attacks, emotional attacks. 170 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 1: The weight of the separation really hit Suzanne after a 171 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:42,199 Speaker 1: trip to visit her family. 172 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 3: Coming home from visiting family is another rough day, ironically, 173 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:50,079 Speaker 3: because you come back to a life that is not 174 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 3: what you used to come back to. I don't have 175 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 3: that confidant and that person at my. 176 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 4: House to lean on. 177 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: For Caroline, that's a familiar feeling. It's one she remembers 178 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: well from those first days of being an empty nester. 179 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 2: Shortly after it was just me Nicole had left for 180 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 2: school and it was just me lost in silence at 181 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 2: the house. 182 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: So instead of being alone, Caroline would spend time with 183 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: people like Suzanne, friends who felt like family. Suzanne is 184 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: still in those early days. 185 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 3: I'm new at it right now, and I don't have 186 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 3: three years in I'm starting to think of it like 187 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 3: a death. You know, it never goes away. You compartmentalize, 188 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 3: it's always going to be part of who you are 189 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 3: now and it makes you who you are in the future. 190 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 3: But I don't think it ever goes away. 191 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: I wondered how long it takes for this trauma and 192 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: loss to no longer be the first thing you remember 193 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: when you open your eyes in the morning. 194 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 2: I actually just had a conversation with Nicole about this today. 195 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 2: She her brother, and myself. We've confessed to each other 196 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 2: that a day does not start without remembering what he did. 197 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: Suzanne shares the same experience. 198 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 3: I can have a good time going out with friends 199 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 3: and doing things, and then as soon as I turn 200 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 3: the corner to my house. Bam, it all hits me again. 201 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 3: I wake up in the morning and I realize that 202 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 3: my house is empty. 203 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: Having a close friend who knows that feeling. 204 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 3: I wouldn't trade her for anybody in the world right now, 205 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 3: because she does get it and she can answer those questions. 206 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 3: The fact that you can have a friend that has 207 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 3: these conversations with you is far and few between. 208 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 2: I would never ever, ever, ever wish this on anyone ever. 209 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 2: I would never want anyone to have the shock in 210 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 2: awe and have to sit and relive and then rethink 211 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 2: your entire life and question and if your family and 212 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 2: marriage was a fraud. I never want anyone to ever 213 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 2: experience that ever. And I think there's this piece of 214 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 2: me that feels attached to Susanna. 215 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 4: As a result of this, I've learned a lot from her. 216 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 3: She has taught me to be more open and honest 217 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 3: in my feelings about stuff. We're still being incredibly brutally honest, 218 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 3: where other times in friendships you don't have that opportunity 219 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 3: to be. 220 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 4: I love you, I love you too. 221 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: As we were getting closer to wrapping up Caroline's story, 222 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: I asked her to join me to talk about what 223 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: it has been like making this podcast. We've also seen 224 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: a lot of listener feedback this season and received emails 225 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: from people associated with the CSPD, and some of it 226 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: is pretty shocking. Here are some of our conversation. Caroline. 227 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: I am so grateful that you shared your story with 228 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: us this season, and I'm curious about your experience. Would 229 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: you say it's been therapeutic. 230 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 2: For you doing this podcast was very helpful. I mean 231 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 2: it wasn't just helpful to be able to finally say 232 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 2: my truth, finally tell my side, but I will also 233 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 2: tell you what was something that was also very helpful 234 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 2: and very therapeutic and very cathartic. What a lot of 235 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 2: people don't know about this podcast is everything I say 236 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 2: is vetted. There is nothing thing that I can recount 237 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 2: or big moments that is not fact checked, is not 238 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 2: looked through by or coroborated by two, three, four other parties. 239 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 2: Being able to have someone validate that this occurred it 240 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 2: was extremely important. 241 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I imagine that can be really powerful because it's 242 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: validating your lived experience. 243 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 244 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: I want to move on to some comments from listeners, 245 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: and one thing I can say is people were really 246 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: invested in your story? Are you down to hear some 247 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: of them? I'd love to, Okay. The first one I'm 248 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: going to share is from a former CSPD officer. He writes, 249 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: do your Betrayal podcast host and team. I've been listening 250 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: to Betrayal season four and I feel the need to 251 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: share how deeply the story affected me. I was one 252 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: class behind Joel Kern. Hearing what he did the multiple affairs, 253 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: lying to internal affairs and his family was shocking. What 254 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: devastated me even more was hearing how the department supported him. Meanwhile, 255 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: I served with honor for nearly fifteen years. I continuously 256 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: put my life on the line for this city. I 257 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: suffered a mental breakdown on the job and was later 258 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: diagnosed with PTSD and a traumatic brain injury, both directly 259 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: tied to my service. I never disgraced the badge. All 260 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: I did was ask for help, and I was denied 261 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: again and again. The department psychologist said he didn't actually 262 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: provide mental health care. I lost my job, I lost 263 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: my identity. My family and I had built our entire 264 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: life around my police career. Suddenly it was gone. I 265 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: spiraled into nearly a decade of depression. I drank heavily. 266 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: I was suicidal. At first, listening to this podcast made 267 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: me sick. Then I felt ashamed, ashamed that I had 268 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: ever worn the same badge. But as I kept listening, 269 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: became angry because I remember the culture and unethical behavior 270 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 1: among command staff. My betrayal didn't come from a spouse. 271 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 1: It came from the department. I loved the one I 272 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: believed would stand behind me the way I stood behind 273 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: the public. It didn't thank you for telling hard stories. 274 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: They matter. They remind the world that some of us 275 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: were thrown away, not because we failed, but because we 276 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: were no longer convenient. I won't share the name of 277 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: the email, but I think I think you know this individual. 278 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 2: I know who this person is and what their role 279 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 2: was in the department, and their role was what you 280 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 2: think of a police officer doing. I mean, you think 281 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,719 Speaker 2: of this person as engaging in heroic acts in very 282 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 2: dangerous situations and circumstances. And knowing what this person did 283 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 2: and what his assignment was, this email fills me with 284 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 2: so much emotion. It just makes me feel nauseated to 285 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 2: know that someone like him was cast aside and not 286 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 2: provided the assistance and help that truly could have saved 287 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 2: his career, truly could have saved him as an individual. 288 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 2: It's just incredibly disheartening to me. 289 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 1: It is disheartening. I mean, I guess all I can 290 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: say is I'm grateful for this person's service and grateful 291 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: that they felt safe enough to write in and share 292 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: their story with us. And I hope this person feels 293 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: hurt and appreciated. He's very much appreciated. Okay, This next 294 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 1: email is interesting because it's not just from a different state, 295 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: it's a different country. She writes, thank you for putting 296 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: season four out. I was married to a former police 297 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: officer in Calgary who is almost the same person as 298 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,199 Speaker 1: Joel Kern. The only difference is that the police service 299 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: swept it all under the rug. My ex was able 300 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: to resign in twenty twenty one while under five investigations. 301 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 1: Since he chose to resign before he was fired, he 302 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: has no record and can become a police officer anywhere 303 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: in Canada. Unfortunately, these psychopaths get away with their crimes. 304 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 1: Thank you for making these things known. It is wild 305 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: that someone in Canada has such a similar experience to you. 306 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: Is that surprising to you? 307 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 2: I don't think that my story is necessarily an anomaly 308 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 2: in the sense that I was married to a police officer. 309 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 2: I knew what I was getting when I was married 310 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 2: to a cop. I knew that he would have to 311 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 2: work nights. I knew that there would be weird hours. 312 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 2: I knew there would be times he would not be 313 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 2: able to be home for holidays or special events. These 314 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 2: are things that I accepted. What I did not sign 315 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 2: up for, and I did not accept, was for him 316 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 2: to deface his badge and was for him to defy 317 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 2: our marital vows. I did not sign up for that, right. 318 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: You didn't, And I think it's safe to say that 319 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: in your case, and I would argue in the case 320 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: of the person that wrote in that all the allowances 321 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: you guys made to help accommodate their job and their 322 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: work schedules were exploited. 323 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, one hundred percent. 324 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to talk about one more email, and 325 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: it was one that we recently received, and it was 326 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: a shock to our team when we received it. We 327 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: said it to you, you've had some time to digest it. 328 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: I mean I should say it's a shock, but not 329 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: a complete surprise, because you know, having heard the number 330 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: of people Joel was having affairs with. It's tough, But 331 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: to your point earlier about validation, I think it's important 332 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: for us to discuss it. Okay, okay, here we go 333 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: to the host of Betrayal podcast. I don't know if 334 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: my conscience will ever be clean, but writing you is 335 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: a first step. I am one of Joel Kern's affairs. 336 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: Was my lieutenant, and he held power. He also made 337 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: me believe we were in a relationship and had a future. 338 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: I remember seeing Caroline and talked to her a few times. 339 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: She'd show up to the substation with dinner for him 340 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: or cake and ice cream for everyone. For special occasions. 341 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: She told our shift that everyone was welcome to eat 342 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving dinner at their home if we had nowhere to go. 343 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,479 Speaker 1: One year, she made Christmas dinner for the entire shift 344 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,360 Speaker 1: and set up a photo booth. I guess that's why 345 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,719 Speaker 1: it was flattering. When Joel started complimenting me. He started 346 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: flirting with me and sending messages. When I was out, 347 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: he asked what I looked like in regular clothes. Then 348 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: he asked me to meet him for dinner on shift. 349 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 1: Things started crossing the line and getting romantic. I told 350 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: him that I couldn't believe he wanted someone like me 351 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: when he had a pretty wife and kids. He told 352 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: me that Caroline was only good to look at and 353 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: said that she was sick with arthritis and didn't pay 354 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: attention to him. Joel said she couldn't do anything or 355 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 1: go anywhere. He said she was always in bed and 356 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: he couldn't divorce her since she was so sick. I 357 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: believed him. We had sex at my house after work 358 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: and a few times before. I felt guilty when we 359 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: had sex in his office because of all the pictures 360 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: of his wife and kids around. He told me the 361 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: pictures were for show. I started to realize I wasn't 362 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: the only one he was sleeping with. I was embarrassed 363 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: and ashamed. A friend showed his Facebook page. I was 364 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: so mad when I saw pictures of Joel and Caroline 365 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: after she ran a marathon. I confronted him about her 366 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 1: being sick. How did she run a marathon if she 367 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: was so sick. He laughed at me and told me 368 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: I didn't know what I was talking about. I know 369 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: I'm not the only affair he had at CSPD, but 370 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: every day I wish I wasn't one of the people 371 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: on his roster. If Caroline gets these emails, then I 372 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: want her to know that I'm very sorry and hope 373 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: she can move forward. This email is a great example 374 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: of you know, what we explored in this season is 375 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: you know, as you're trying to move forward and just 376 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,959 Speaker 1: live your life, you know, you take three steps and 377 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,479 Speaker 1: then bam, new information, a new affair you didn't see coming, 378 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: and it's just another blow. It's just another hit. 379 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 2: I'm desensitized to hearing about affairs like that. Part doesn't 380 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 2: hit my soul hearing this email. The part that just 381 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 2: as a gut punch to me is hearing the manipulation 382 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 2: tactics and the lies used to garner his sexual affairs. 383 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 2: Very few people know that I have rheumatoid arthritis. Very 384 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 2: few people know that about me. It is not something 385 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 2: that debilitates me and puts me bedridden. But for him 386 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 2: to have used that and told someone that to manipulate 387 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 2: them to have sex with him, it just sickens me. 388 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 1: It honestly just feels like nothing was off limits in 389 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: his pursuit. I mean, it's it's fascinating and horrifying how 390 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: much Joel was manipulating everyone in his orbit. 391 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 2: So a new friend from my women's group said something 392 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 2: to me that had just really stuck with me. She said, 393 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 2: it's like we were living in the Truman Show. Joel 394 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 2: was the director and the rest of us were just 395 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 2: cast members, just going along with the script without even 396 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 2: knowing it. There was the life that he lived with us, 397 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 2: or the one you know that he pretended to live 398 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 2: with us, and then there was this version he showed 399 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 2: to people at work. None of it was real, all 400 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 2: of it was a performance. 401 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: I think this is a good time to mention. We 402 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: did reach out to Joel to give him the opportunity 403 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: to share on the podcast, but he did decline our 404 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: request for an interview. However, he did send us a 405 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: written statement, and I'm going to read that now. Thank 406 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: you for reaching out. I understand the nature of the 407 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: series and appreciate the opportunity to respond. However, I've decided 408 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 1: not to participate in the podcast. I do want to 409 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: acknowledge that I've made mistakes and that others have their 410 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: own stories to tell. While I will not be adding 411 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: to the conversation publicly, I continue to reflect and work 412 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: on becoming a better version of myself. I ask that 413 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: this message be taken as my only comment. Sincerely, Joel, 414 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say that we're probably never 415 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: going to get to the bottom of why Joel did 416 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: what he did, why he did this to your family, 417 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 1: why he did this to you. 418 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 2: But here's what I do know. 419 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: There are so many people who've been betrayed by a partner, 420 00:25:54,720 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: and it's isolating, and it's deeply lonely. In hearing your story, 421 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 1: your honesty, your strength, your vulnerability, it might be the 422 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 1: moment someone else realizes that they're not alone. 423 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 2: Thank you for giving me the platform to do it. 424 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: After months getting to know Caroline and her world, we 425 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: had one more trip that we wanted to take to 426 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: watch her son run the Boston Marathon. It wasn't his 427 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: first time running, but this was the first time Caroline 428 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: and Nicole would get to see him cross the finish line. 429 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: We were excited to go along. Before race day, we 430 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: all sat down at dinner together. Nicole was grateful not 431 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: just to have the whole family in one place, but 432 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: to finally share this experience and to talk together for 433 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: the podcast. By the way, you'll hear the sounds of 434 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: the restaurant in the background. This is our first time 435 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: talking all three of us. Now that I had them 436 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: all at one table, I wanted to ask them about 437 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: something I noticed. Caroline has lots of images of birds 438 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: around in her home and even in a tattoo. I 439 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: asked the family about it, and no, I would probably 440 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: be the best for that. 441 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 2: So life blows up and we would check in with 442 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 2: each other every day and we started talking about, you know, 443 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 2: just different mantras and how we kept going. And one 444 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 2: day my son said, I keep hearing the Bob Marley 445 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 2: song and it just keeps chanting like everything's going to 446 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 2: be all right. I actually thought to myself, how fitting that. 447 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 2: Obviously the chorus is Everything's going to be all right. 448 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,959 Speaker 2: But the title of the song is three Little birds. 449 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 2: And so we were a family of four, but we 450 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 2: really dwindled down to three and it just became three 451 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 2: little birds. And after that our mantra has been three 452 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 2: little birds, or we sign everything off on to each 453 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 2: other TL it just has become our thing. 454 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 1: The next morning, we were off to the Boston Marathon. 455 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 2: His freshman year, he had the goal of doing this 456 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 2: and it was a big deal for him to train 457 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 2: and cross the finish line, and he was scheduled to 458 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 2: do this in April of twenty twenty two, and so 459 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 2: just a week before that was our designated D day 460 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 2: when Joel blew up our lives and we didn't know 461 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 2: if he would follow through with it, and he said 462 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 2: that it was a big deal for him to do it, 463 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 2: that training and being a part of something bigger was 464 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 2: just kind of keeping him on a path to heal 465 00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 2: for himself since he was so far away, and to 466 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 2: keep his mind off of certain things. And so he 467 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 2: did it. 468 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: The first time he ran the marathon, Jewel's betrayal was 469 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: painfully fresh. 470 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 2: In the day that he did the race, Jewel called 471 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 2: in the middle of the conversation. We were sitting in 472 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 2: a car, and Nicole actually had to say, you do 473 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 2: know that today is a bigger day than you. My 474 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 2: brother's doing this marathon and you completely forgot about it. 475 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 2: There's so much more that's bigger than you. 476 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: Well, this is the first year that we have actually 477 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: gotten Intisim across the finish line. 478 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 2: It's just been a slow just to slow burn, a 479 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 2: slow achievement to try to keep going. And if I 480 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 2: were to tell you that I think the kids and 481 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 2: I will ever cross like a finish line from the 482 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 2: trauma that was caused. I just don't think that's realistic. 483 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 2: I think we can keep going, and I think we 484 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 2: can continue to figure out our way through it. But 485 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 2: I'm not sure that we'll really truly ever understand no 486 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 2: reasons why or. 487 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: Really get over anything. 488 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 2: But we will get through it. 489 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: But today was a good day. Standing on the streets 490 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: of Boston near the finish line, the sky was clear, 491 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: and we cheered runners as they crossed. I was holding 492 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: a sign that said free beer at finish line, and 493 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: we waited with anthicipation for Caroline soun. 494 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 2: A beer sounds been after line. The three of us 495 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 2: have been through something that no three other people will 496 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 2: ever have gone exactly through. And so to be able 497 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 2: to say that we're still here, still standing, still achieving, 498 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 2: and still together, I think that's incredible. 499 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: Pure joy, pure love. Maybe every little thing is imperfect, 500 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,239 Speaker 1: but these three little birds are doing all right, just 501 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: like the song said. 502 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 2: That might be my baby boy. 503 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Betrayal season four. If you 504 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email 505 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: us at Betrayal pod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal 506 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: Pod at gmail dot com. Also, please be sure to 507 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod and me Andrea H. 508 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: Gunning for all Betrayal content, news and updates. One way 509 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: to support the series is by subscribing to our show 510 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal five star 511 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: reviews help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal 512 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass 513 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is 514 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Betrayal is 515 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced 516 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate 517 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: producers are Caitlin Golden and Kristin Melcurie. Our iHeart team 518 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,479 Speaker 1: is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Story editing by Monique Leboard, 519 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,479 Speaker 1: audio editing by mattel Vecchio and Tanner Robbins and mixed 520 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: by mattal Vecchio and special thanks to Caroline and her family. 521 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided 522 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: by my Music and for more podcasts from iHeart visit 523 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.