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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us for session four thirty eight of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after word from our sponsors. As we head into

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Speaker 1: the holidays, many of us will encounter old memories and

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Speaker 1: create new ones. You may spend time recounting stories from

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Speaker 1: your childhood, learning a new line dance, or even taking

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Speaker 1: orders in the kitchen on how to make a family recipe.

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Speaker 1: Memory keeping has long been a practice for humans across

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Speaker 1: the globe, but for Black people, though, traditions look different,

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Speaker 1: and in the age of technology, the way memories are created, stored,

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Speaker 1: and used introduce a new set of questions around who

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Speaker 1: gets to call them their own. Today, I'm excited to

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Speaker 1: be joined by doctor Tanya Sutherland, currently a professor and

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Speaker 1: dean at UCLA. She has dedicated her research to unpacking

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Speaker 1: the uniqueness of black memory work, and in her book

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Speaker 1: Resurrecting the Black Body Race and the Digital Afterlife, she

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Speaker 1: digs into how technology, history and data longevity affect how

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Speaker 1: we practice arkavism and how those practices impact our digital afterlives.

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Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please

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Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG

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Speaker 1: in session, or join us over in our patreons to

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Speaker 1: talk more about the episode. You can join us at

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Speaker 1: community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today, doctor Sutherland.

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Speaker 2: It is an absolute pleasure to be here, and it's Tanya. Please.

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Speaker 1: Oh, Tanya, got it? Got it? So I wonder if

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Speaker 1: you can start by just giving us a definition of

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Speaker 1: your work. So what do you mean when you talk

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Speaker 1: about black memory work in black digital afterlives? Wow?

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Speaker 2: Thank you? What an important question and a perfect place

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Speaker 2: to begin when we talk about digital afterlives. We're really

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Speaker 2: talking about the data that's collected by us for us

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Speaker 2: about us. That includes anything from our social media, to

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Speaker 2: our email, to our communications such as text messages, instant messages, right,

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Speaker 2: all of this content that we're producing in our own

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Speaker 2: personal lives, and then actual data bits and bytes. When

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Speaker 2: you take a photograph, the metadata from that gets collected

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Speaker 2: on your phone, So if you have an iPhone, right,

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Speaker 2: that information then goes to Apple. They're collecting that data

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Speaker 2: and that metadata. They're collecting the time of the photograph,

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Speaker 2: the location of the photograph, some information, some other information

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Speaker 2: about the image itself, and increasingly with the use of AI,

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Speaker 2: that includes some maybe sort of description about what might

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Speaker 2: appear in the image. This is sort of a new

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Speaker 2: added layer of what is being collected and noted. And

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Speaker 2: then when you pass away, the question becomes what is

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Speaker 2: done with all of this data? And so in many

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Speaker 2: ways we have what I have termed digital afterlife, where

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Speaker 2: all of this data and our digital detritis lives on

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Speaker 2: after we do, and we have very little say in

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Speaker 2: terms of what is done with that data, how it's used,

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Speaker 2: how it might be manipulated. There are, as we know

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Speaker 2: now digital resurrection, and other kinds of digital immortality practices.

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Speaker 2: All of these things get tied up in what we

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Speaker 2: mean when we say a digital afterlife. When I talk

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Speaker 2: about Black Memory Work, I'm looking at all of the

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Speaker 2: potential harms that can be served up by a digital afterlife,

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Speaker 2: and I'm looking to Black memory work, which really describes

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Speaker 2: a long history, robust history of practices within black communities,

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Speaker 2: diasporic communities across the globe that are about preserved memory

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Speaker 2: in ways that make sense to us, and in some ways,

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Speaker 2: I think about Black Memory Work as a corrective or

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Speaker 2: as an alternative path to a digital after life, something

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Speaker 2: more intentional, right, something that we craft for ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk about like what inspired you and like

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Speaker 1: what interested you in this work and how it inspired

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Speaker 1: the writing of your book.

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Speaker 2: I had been thinking about this in some way, shape

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Speaker 2: or form since my childhood. I was distressed as a

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Speaker 2: child to see the Save the Children campaign. Do you

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Speaker 2: remember this? On television commercials for Evening TV. There would

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Speaker 2: be pictures of ostensibly starving children, and they would show

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Speaker 2: it was always black children. They always had very distended bellies.

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Speaker 2: What we would now probably refer to colloquially as poverty, porn. Right,

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Speaker 2: we were looking at black babies in distress, and as

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Speaker 2: a child, I remember being struck by how it only

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Speaker 2: ever was kids who looked like me, and it didn't

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Speaker 2: make sense to me. As a child, I didn't have

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Speaker 2: a language or reference points really to understand what I

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Speaker 2: was seeing, or to make sense of it, or even

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Speaker 2: to sort of contend with it. And then when Hurricane

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Speaker 2: Katrina happened, I was immediately taken back to those pictures,

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Speaker 2: to those commercials, to those ads, to that entire ad campaign,

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Speaker 2: and I thought, we are seeing dead people who look

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Speaker 2: like me on television once again, now on the internet

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Speaker 2: as well, in the overflowing waters of Lake pontchitran Right,

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Speaker 2: we are once again looking at images of black people's

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Speaker 2: bodies and distress, deceased, and it's being presented to us

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Speaker 2: as something that we should taken again any real context.

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Speaker 2: We aren't given tools with which to process what we're seeing.

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Speaker 2: And I thought, there's got to be a reason that

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Speaker 2: it's always people who look like me, and that reason

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Speaker 2: can't just be racism. What else is at play here?

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Speaker 2: And so that sort of became the center of the

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Speaker 2: inquiry for my book Resurrecting Black Body, which is about

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Speaker 2: race and the digital afterlife and really explores these questions

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Speaker 2: in depth.

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Speaker 1: And what are some of the most common practices of

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Speaker 1: black memory work that we may not even realize that

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Speaker 1: we're practicing.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I love this question. So we are

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Speaker 2: very creative when I say we right now, I'm talking

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Speaker 2: about the Black Memory Collective, which is a small community

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Speaker 2: based organization that I'm the founder and director of. And

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Speaker 2: when we talk about black memory work, the kinds of

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Speaker 2: practices that we first started talking about and seeing, we're

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Speaker 2: things like quilts, right it was we understand memory to

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Speaker 2: be braid in someone's hair as a root to freedom.

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Speaker 2: We understand black memory work to be quilting. We understand

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Speaker 2: black memory work in a way that other people might

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Speaker 2: not recognize it. Other people might call someone a hoarder,

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Speaker 2: for example. And that's not to say that there aren't

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Speaker 2: issues around hoarding, but it is to say that when

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Speaker 2: you have been dispossessed of your physical belongings repeatedly over generations,

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Speaker 2: there's something to that holding on to things. Right, that

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Speaker 2: is about a memory process, a memory ritual, a memory practice. Right,

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Speaker 2: If you're not out here hoarding or braiding hair or quilting.

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Speaker 2: Don't think you're not doing black memory work. Certainly for

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Speaker 2: our photographs and the things that we might find in

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Speaker 2: the boxes under our beds, that's black memory work. And

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Speaker 2: then in an even more expansive way, we are finding

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Speaker 2: that the way that folks show up for one another

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Speaker 2: in community is also about a memory practice or a

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Speaker 2: memory ritual. It's about building memory and that memory then

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Speaker 2: gets held in community. And I think that's a lot

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Speaker 2: of it right, just the ways that we are showing

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Speaker 2: up in community and asking one another to hold things

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Speaker 2: for ourselves, for our communities, all of that, all of

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Speaker 2: that counts as block memory.

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Speaker 1: You know, as you're talking to me, I'm thinking about

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Speaker 1: this large black leather purse that my grandmother had that

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Speaker 1: had all of these photos, and every time I would

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Speaker 1: go home for like holidays, like I'm going straight to

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Speaker 1: this purse to like ask my aunts and uncles like

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Speaker 1: tell me about this picture? Who was this? And really

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Speaker 1: wanting to like understand like why there were these collection

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Speaker 1: of photos. It also makes me think about how important

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Speaker 1: it was to my grandmother that anytime she went to

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Speaker 1: a funeral, she had to have a program, right. And

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Speaker 1: then would come back from the funeral and like put

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Speaker 1: it in the back of her bible. Right, And so

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Speaker 1: it feels like as a culture, like as a community,

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Speaker 1: it feels like we have been doing this black memory

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Speaker 1: where even if we weren't calling it it.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right, that's exactly right. It's in our art.

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Speaker 2: It's literally woven into the fabrics of our culture. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So what are some of the I love it. I

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Speaker 2: just yeah, like you have to go on a big

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Speaker 2: black bag full of black memory.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I need to figure out where that person is

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Speaker 1: so that that doesn't get like displaced, and like you know,

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Speaker 1: we always kind of have an eye on where that

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Speaker 1: is and who has ownership with it.

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Speaker 2: So what are some of.

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Speaker 1: The differences between black memory practices and maybe more widespread

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Speaker 1: like western archival practices.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for asking us question. So, in

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Speaker 2: a brick and mortar archives, what you will find is

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Speaker 2: that there are papers, and those papers go in boxes,

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Speaker 2: and those boxes go on shelves, and there are processes

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Speaker 2: through which things may cross the arkable threshold or enter

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Speaker 2: the archives. There are high level descriptive practices, high level

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Speaker 2: discovery practices, high level access practices that really are about

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Speaker 2: ensuring the longevity of those materials and the condition of

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Speaker 2: them in that very specific way. And for the most part,

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Speaker 2: the brick and mortar archives that exist in the United

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Speaker 2: States were created to document the dominant culture. Right the

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Speaker 2: ways that we tend to show up in those archives

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Speaker 2: is in newspapers, in databases of runaway slave ads. The

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Speaker 2: institutions that hold those archives have not traditionally made it

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Speaker 2: their agenda, their goal, or their policy to document black life.

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Speaker 2: And if they do, what they're documenting is the same

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Speaker 2: the children campaign and the bodies in like Pontitrain, they're

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Speaker 2: documenting trauma, death, and disposition. Black memory worked the exact

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Speaker 2: opposite of that. It starts with us, It starts from

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Speaker 2: the bottom. It holds us. It is generative, It shifts,

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Speaker 2: It doesn't have to stay static. There's no demand that

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Speaker 2: it be accessible broadly, widely accessible. In so many ways,

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Speaker 2: they are side by side practices that almost have nothing

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Speaker 2: to do with one another. Right because the goals aren't

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Speaker 2: the same, the practices and the policies aren't the same,

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Speaker 2: they can speak to one another, they could influence one another, certainly.

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Speaker 2: Black memory workers who call themselves such often are trained

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Speaker 2: as archivists. So they come with the knowledge of how

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Speaker 2: to preserve materials. What they're doing with that knowledge isn't

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Speaker 2: just preserving materials putting them in a box on a

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Speaker 2: shelf and saying, hey, come and visit my brick and

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Speaker 2: mortar archives, to visit your stuff. They're saying, I know

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Speaker 2: how to preserve this. Let me show you, let me

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Speaker 2: teach you, let me help you. And so it's also

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Speaker 2: a knowledge practice in a way, and a generational one

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Speaker 2: in a different way than institutional brick and mortar archives

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Speaker 2: like the National Archives or even the Library of Congress,

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Speaker 2: or I mean even your local repository or university archives

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Speaker 2: may hold. They are set about to do sort of

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Speaker 2: different things.

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Speaker 1: And what do you feel like is the goal of

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Speaker 1: a black memory work? Then it's a different goal, like

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Speaker 1: you said, than archiving.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think what I've observed, what I've heard people say,

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Speaker 2: is that we need to preserve our memory. No one

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Speaker 2: else is doing that for us, and we're going to

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Speaker 2: do it in a way that is intentionally black, and

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Speaker 2: so that shows up differently, right, We show up differently

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Speaker 2: in intentionally black spaces. The work is done differently in

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Speaker 2: intentionally black spaces, and I want to be really clear

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Speaker 2: that not everyone who is a black memory worker, right, yea,

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Speaker 2: and your grandmother is a black memory worker, that bag

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Speaker 2: that's black memory work. So it doesn't matter that she

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Speaker 2: didn't have a master's degree in library and information studies

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Speaker 2: or science, right. I assume she did bond anyway, though

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Speaker 2: neither of my grandmothers did either, and I would absolutely

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Speaker 2: call both of them black memory workers. I think the

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Speaker 2: purpose and the goal for us is about preservation of memory.

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Speaker 2: It's also about preservation of cultural heritage, and there's a

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Speaker 2: certain protective layer I want to say for future generations

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Speaker 2: that's very intentional. There too.

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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break And so is it, Tanya,

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Speaker 1: a more personal kind of like, Okay, it is for

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Speaker 1: my family to preserve the history of our family, not

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Speaker 1: necessarily for me to learn about your family, because that's

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Speaker 1: kind of what it feels like. It's like, oh, with archiving,

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Speaker 1: like you can go visit like a library, a museum

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Speaker 1: and like learn more. This feels like it is a

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Speaker 1: more personal thing maybe for your community. Well definitely your

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Speaker 1: direct family, but maybe also your community that is still

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Speaker 1: like close to the family.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I would say that's true. And I would also

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Speaker 2: say that in terms of concentric circles or community and

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Speaker 2: how we build and how we live and work with

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Speaker 2: one another, there are many sort of points of possible

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Speaker 2: or potential interaction with other people's historical memories. Right. I

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Speaker 2: know that ancestry has become a very popular site. I

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Speaker 2: have my own issues with it, but part of what

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Speaker 2: it's done is to help people who otherwise couldn't even

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Speaker 2: make those family connections be able to make those family connections.

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Speaker 2: So I think Black memory work serves a similar function

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Speaker 2: as well, inasmuch as you know, you're telling a story

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Speaker 2: and you mentioned a name, and the next thing you know,

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Speaker 2: it's oh, I have a picture of him, and it's

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Speaker 2: through its storytelling is also a really key element of

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Speaker 2: Black memory work. As we are telling each other one

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Speaker 2: another's stories, as we're telling our own family stories, as

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Speaker 2: we all of those things that we hold in collective,

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Speaker 2: I think makes it more communal, more community based and

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Speaker 2: community oriented. And also, if there is a desire to

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Speaker 2: do long term preservation work that requires resources, and it's

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Speaker 2: generally going to be easier to do that in community. Right, So, if,

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Speaker 2: for example, one of the things that the Black memory

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Speaker 2: collective in Los Angeles is talking about doing is building

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Speaker 2: a repository of sorts, perhaps a digital repository to hold photographs,

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Speaker 2: to hold recipes. We're still talking with the broader community

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Speaker 2: about who would want to participate, who should hold and

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Speaker 2: steward it, what an ingest process would look like. And

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Speaker 2: then it starts to really feel like we're having the

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Speaker 2: conversation about a brick and mortar archives. Right it shifts.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't stop being black memory work, but it takes

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Speaker 2: on sort of the patna of traditional artical space.

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Speaker 1: So in your work you also talk about Black memory

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Speaker 1: work being restorative and healing. Can you talk about what ways, like,

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Speaker 1: what does that look like for black memory work to

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Speaker 1: actually heal.

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Speaker 2: There's a member of our collective who is very interested

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Speaker 2: in birth stories and part of the so when I

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Speaker 2: said storytelling, narrative is a really important part of Black

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Speaker 2: memory work because it isn't in part about telling our stories,

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Speaker 2: preserving those stories for the future and for our children,

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Speaker 2: our grandchildren, our descendants are communities more broadly, and so Dominique,

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Speaker 2: I don't think she would mind me naming her is

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Speaker 2: doing really beautiful work around talking with people who have

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Speaker 2: difficult birth stories and recording those stories for that person

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Speaker 2: so that they can have something to hold. Right So

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Speaker 2: in some instances, they may not have a child to hold,

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Speaker 2: but they now have a story that they can hold

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Speaker 2: that has been told to someone who is holding it

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Speaker 2: in care and in community with them. And I think

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Speaker 2: there's something very healing and restorative about that kind of practice.

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Speaker 2: And we think about all of that as Black Memory work.

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Speaker 1: You know, telling you you started off by given some

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Speaker 1: very powerfil examples of like things in your personal experience

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Speaker 1: that have shaped your interest in doing this work. So

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Speaker 1: you talked about the State of the Children campaign as

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Speaker 1: well as Hurricane Katrina, And I'm wondering, you know, you're

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Speaker 1: talking about that as like as told to us, right

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Speaker 1: like these messages and stories that we saw, But what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about with Black Memory work is us owning

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Speaker 1: this process. I wonder what does it look like for

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Speaker 1: something like Hurricane Katrina, or even I'm thinking about the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: right like, how traumatic that was for so many of us,

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Speaker 1: and how many of us lost loved ones and lost

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Speaker 1: experiences and all kinds of things. What does it look

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Speaker 1: like in Black Memory works a whole space for both

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Speaker 1: the joy of black life, but also the more people

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Speaker 1: parts of it.

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Speaker 2: That's something that I think about a lot. I taught

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Speaker 2: a course in the fall of twenty twenty four, yes,

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Speaker 2: in the fall of twenty twenty four on black memory work,

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Speaker 2: and there's not much written about it in the professional literature,

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Speaker 2: certainly not in information studies, and so I'm casting about

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Speaker 2: a little bit looking for materials for my students to read,

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Speaker 2: and about halfway through the quarter they came to me

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Speaker 2: and they said, Professor Sutherland, this is beautiful and we're

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Speaker 2: really enjoying this class. But if we had one note

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Speaker 2: for you, more joy, Please more joy, because it was

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Speaker 2: a lot easier to find representations or examples of how

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Speaker 2: we are actually holding space for one another in tragedy

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Speaker 2: and in trauma than it was to find things written

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Speaker 2: about how we are holding one another in joy. So

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Speaker 2: I'm really glad that you asked that question, because with

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Speaker 2: COVID so much loss, there are a lot of community based,

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Speaker 2: grassroots level projects to document people's experiences with COVID. I

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Speaker 2: can't say the same thing was true with Katrina in

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Speaker 2: the same way, but it certainly is true now with COVID.

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Speaker 2: There are oral history projects all kinds of things that

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Speaker 2: are sort of attuned to that kind of pain. I

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Speaker 2: think where we are maybe not doing as good a

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Speaker 2: job is and finding those moments of celebration and lifting

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Speaker 2: those up. Part of black memory work is teaching the

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Speaker 2: kids how to play spades, right, Like, we got to

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Speaker 2: know how to play dominoes. If we don't know, then

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Speaker 2: we're only bringing the bad stuff with us through the generations.

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Speaker 2: So I know y'all want a gate keep, but teach

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Speaker 2: the kids, keep them maybies how to play spades and dominoes.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So what I do you're seeing, Tanya, is that

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Speaker 1: I got to break out my hula hoop and teach

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Speaker 1: the babies how to do the hula hoop.

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Speaker 2: Need double dutch? Yeah, I want to see there waiting, Okay,

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Speaker 2: you want to see that's right? Yeah. You know, many

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Speaker 2: years ago, there was a project in Trinidad that was

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Speaker 2: now I'm not going to remember exactly what it was called,

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Speaker 2: but it was something. It was a cultural memory project,

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Speaker 2: and the idea was sort of sort of this living museum.

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Speaker 2: What a beautiful notion. They had a storyteller who was

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Speaker 2: there to tell the stories of Afro Trinidadians and the Caribbean,

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Speaker 2: there was hopscotch and they would teach anybody who didn't

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Speaker 2: know how to play how to play. And I thought that,

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Speaker 2: right this, we need more of this, We need more

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Speaker 2: living museums, so to speak, more of that energy anyway,

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Speaker 2: if not formulation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love it. So I

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Speaker 1: think lots of people who are enjoying our conversation, will

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Speaker 1: you know hear this and like feel like it's beautiful

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Speaker 1: and be very inspired and then feel like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: where do I start? Right? Like what does it look

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Speaker 1: like for me to have my own personal family kind

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Speaker 1: of black memory work? So what would you suggest to

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Speaker 1: them for how to get started?

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Speaker 2: I would say, look to your people, right, what are

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Speaker 2: you collecting? Because we're all collecting something, even if we're

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Speaker 2: not really aware of it. So stop and take a

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Speaker 2: beat and are what is it your collect Is it shoes? Honey,

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Speaker 2: I'm not mad at you. Just ask yourself what is it? Right?

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Speaker 2: Because the shoes are important. All God's children need traveling shoes. Right,

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Speaker 2: ask yourself what you're collecting, and then look and see

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Speaker 2: talk to your people what are they collecting. My mother

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Speaker 2: is a tremendously hard working person. And a really brilliant cook.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that she would tell you that she

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Speaker 2: is a collector of recipes or that she is the

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Speaker 2: keeper of our family culinary traditions. I don't know that

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Speaker 2: she would see that in herself, but I see it

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Speaker 2: very clearly something I want to make sure gets preserved, respected, held, Right,

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Speaker 2: those are the kinds of things I would practice. My dad,

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Speaker 2: for example, is a lover of music and has a

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Speaker 2: tremendous record and other music collection. I don't think if

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Speaker 2: you asked my dad you know what he collects, that

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Speaker 2: he would say music. And he probably wouldn't even consider

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Speaker 2: himself the music officionado. He just likes music. But those

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Speaker 2: are the family stories, right. He comes from a line

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Speaker 2: of musicians, and he's probably not thinking about the history

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Speaker 2: of his own family as being important to his love

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Speaker 2: of music, right. I think we start there. We really

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Speaker 2: start by looking inward and looking outward and having conversations

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Speaker 2: with the people closest to us, and then we go

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Speaker 2: a little bit further out talk to my cousins, I

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Speaker 2: talk to my aunties, and then at the same time, right,

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Speaker 2: once you feel like you have the capacity for it,

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Speaker 2: start talking to other people in your community, start talking

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Speaker 2: to people at church, or you know, trying to think

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Speaker 2: of where else people gather. These days, we've become so dispersed.

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Speaker 2: Ask people when you're playing cards, ask people at wherever

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Speaker 2: it is at the cookout. The cookout is actually the

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Speaker 2: perfect place to have this conversation, to start this conversation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as we are kind of moving quickly into the

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Speaker 1: holiday season, it feels like a good time to think

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Speaker 1: about you know, so for example, and the things you've shared, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: would it be an opportunity maybe for you to record

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Speaker 1: your dad talking about a couple of his favorite albums,

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Speaker 1: or to record mom as she's preparing for the holiday

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Speaker 1: dishes as a way of kind of getting started with

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Speaker 1: some of these conversations.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely get your phone out. Don't just record mom

402
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Speaker 2: doing what she's doing, but learn it with your hands too. Right,

403
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Speaker 2: There's something really important and important aspect of black memory

404
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Speaker 2: work is the cultural transmission. And cultural transmission is fancy

405
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Speaker 2: speak for handed down from generation to generation, and by

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Speaker 2: that we mean like physically it's a practice that has

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Speaker 2: been transmitted from one generation to the next. So I

408
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Speaker 2: learned how to roll out a roty dough from my

409
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Speaker 2: anti intrinidad. I now have that memory in my muscle.

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Speaker 2: I have muscle memory of how to do that. I

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Speaker 2: can teach my son how to roll out a rote.

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Speaker 2: So if I had just had a video of Anti

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Speaker 2: doing it, Anti and Iurene doing it, maybe maybe I

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Speaker 2: could still teach my son. Maybe. But having that muscle

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Speaker 2: memory is really important, which is why I'm saying I

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Speaker 2: want to see the kids with their hands in there

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Speaker 2: waiting to jump it for double dutch. Right, the recordings.

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Speaker 2: We can take all of the preservation practices to heart

419
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Speaker 2: and utilize them, and digital things vanish. Sometimes those things

420
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Speaker 2: get lost. It's a lot harder to lose something if

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Speaker 2: you know it in your body.

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Speaker 1: So this feels like a perfect intersection of where we

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Speaker 1: started in talking about black memory work and then digital afterlife, right,

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Speaker 1: because when we're talking about is these videos that kind

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Speaker 1: of live beyond us. And I'm sure as we know

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Speaker 1: that there are all kinds of like ethical considerations around,

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Speaker 1: like digital archives and who has a permission to share?

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Speaker 1: Can you talk about like some of the ethical considerations,

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Speaker 1: especially when we're thinking about digital afterlives.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I start from a place of concern and care

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Speaker 2: when it comes to any kind of digital recording. I

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Speaker 2: don't often allow myself to be recorded in fact, because

433
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 2: if there is no digital video of me, then there

434
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 2: can't be an aid fake of me saying some stuff

435
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 2: I would never say, doing some stuff I would never do,

436
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 2: and then having that be one hundred years from now

437
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 2: what my descendants are looking back on and thinking, Oh,

438
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 2: that was Tanya. So that's what we don't want. That's

439
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 2: sort of the core of the ethical concern is that

440
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: our images and likenesses, which we already know are typically

441
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 2: taken in moments of trauma and despair. Those are the

442
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 2: images that are then held kept. That's the about us

443
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 2: and sort of on our behalves, not bias and for

444
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 2: us approach. And there are ethical concerns that one can

445
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 2: raise and think through in terms of access and sharing,

446
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 2: and I have a lot of thoughts about that. I

447
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 2: think we should be thinking about what is appropriate access,

448
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 2: but who determines what is appropriate right? I think that

449
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: should be done at the community level, whoever the community

450
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 2: is that's being affected or influenced or included in whatever

451
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: the digital project is. Also, I'm thinking about Frederick Douglass.

452
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 2: Frederick Douglas was big on the photograph and the potential

453
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 2: what it could do for us. He did not think

454
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 2: that this was a technology, that photography was a technology

455
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 2: that should be to convince white people that black folks

456
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 2: had value. He didn't think the photograph should be necessary,

457
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 2: that any kind of technology could in fact demonstrate the

458
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 2: value of a black life to somebody who didn't want

459
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 2: to see it. So imagine in the year twenty twenty two,

460
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, somewhere in there, when I got on

461
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 2: Beyonce's Internet and I saw a photograph of Frederick Douglass

462
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 2: that had been reanimated through Ancestry or one of those companies,

463
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 2: and he's shaking his head back and forth, back and forth,

464
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: and I thought, everything I know about this man from

465
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 2: the words that came out of his mouth, he would

466
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 2: hate this and would not stand behind it at all.

467
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: And for me, that's where the ethical issues start. If

468
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 2: we have no agency and no ability to say what

469
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 2: is going to be done with those materials, and we

470
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 2: know that there is a long history of using our

471
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 2: images in nefarious ways that end up harming us, doing

472
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 2: further harm, then that's for me, the first ethical flag.

473
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: That's where we have to start. We have to start

474
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: with people having a certain amount of agency and being

475
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 2: able to say yes I want to do that or

476
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 2: no I don't. It's got to be a consent based model, absolutely,

477
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 2: is the first thing I think. And then I think

478
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 2: we have to be really careful. You know, I said

479
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 2: the thing about gatekeeping earlier in kind of a joking way,

480
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 2: but there are real needs for gatekeeping, and it's because

481
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 2: we are collecting materials for beautiful reasons and not nefarious ones,

482
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 2: and we don't want to open ourselves up to further attack.

483
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, I guess that's

484
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: my next question, what you telling you? Because you've already

485
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: talked about like how dispersed we all are, right, Like,

486
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: you know, the cookout largely doesn't exist all the time,

487
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: maybe as it did kind of historically, And so many

488
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: of the ways that we are creating community and talking

489
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: with one another about these kinds of things is online.

490
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: And so what does it look like to gatekeep when

491
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: so many of these conversations in ways that we are

492
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: kind of practicing black memory work kind of happen in public.

493
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really really important point. And the thing

494
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 2: that immediately occurred to me as you were. As you

495
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 2: were speaking, is all of the times that I have

496
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: seen a mean pop up on the Internet and then

497
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of people, non malanated people rushing in

498
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 2: to be like, explain it to me, explain it to

499
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 2: me and get it, Like I don't get it. I

500
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 2: have seen gatekeeping happening there in a way that I'm like,

501
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 2: that's right, you know exactly what to do. You understood

502
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 2: the assignment. Your people are like, I'm not going to

503
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,719
Speaker 2: tell you that it's actually not your business, so it's

504
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 2: saus business. And I have been very impressed actually with

505
00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 2: our ability to find ourselves and commune online. Black Twitter,

506
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 2: while it was a thing, was a very it was open.

507
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 2: It's not like you couldn't follow some accounts and find

508
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 2: your way into black Twitter. But if you didn't have

509
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 2: a guide of some kind, if you didn't know where

510
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 2: to start, black Twitter might as well have been a

511
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 2: locked room in a castle somewhere, Like you could not

512
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 2: find us queens. We weren't available like that. And even

513
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 2: though we were right there saying the stuff that we

514
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 2: were saying in public on a very open public platform.

515
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: So I think that we've always found ways were very

516
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 2: creative wokes. And it's one of the things that's actually

517
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 2: impressed me most about studying the way that black people

518
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 2: kind of move on the internet is that somehow the

519
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 2: way that we are in real life, of course gets

520
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 2: echoed and we understand the assignment.

521
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know, you bringing up leg Twitter just

522
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: unlocked all of these memories for me, because you're right,

523
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: it was not like a place to go. You did

524
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: have to know kind of like who you needed to

525
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 1: follow and like the stories and like the things that

526
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: we would revisit year after year. Like it was very

527
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: much that if you know, you know kind of thing

528
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: and thinking about you know, I think how difficult it

529
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: was for people when ownership of Twitter changed, right, and

530
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: so then it very much felt like not a safe

531
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: place or as safe as it could be for black

532
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: folks to kind of congregate, and you know, just rise

533
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: in bots and trolling, and so it very much feels

534
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: like that was a place where there were so many,

535
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: i think rich cultural conversations about like just what it

536
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,959
Speaker 1: means to be black right now and now that doesn't

537
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: exist in the same way, and so you know, like

538
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: can you help me talk through like what does it

539
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: mean for us? To together in a place, like a

540
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: black Twitter that is not owned by us, right that

541
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: we have no control over and like became so meaningful

542
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: for so many people, and then for it to kind

543
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: of be disbanded, it would that means in terms of

544
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: like black memory.

545
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: Work, what a lesson to have learned, right that when

546
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 2: you don't control your own spaces, they can be taken

547
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 2: from you, even no matter how much time, energy, effort,

548
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 2: labor has been invested into that space. And seeing what

549
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: has become of Twitter, it's not even a place that

550
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 2: you want to hang out or be. So I'm watching

551
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 2: the development of Black Sky with great interest because I

552
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 2: think that a fair number of black Twitter users, at

553
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: least those in academic circles, migrated over to Blue Sky.

554
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 2: There's a Black Sky that has been very intentionally developed

555
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,959
Speaker 2: to kind of combat that very thing. What happens if

556
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 2: Blue Sky goes down. We don't want to lose our space.

557
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 2: So I'm watching the development of Black Sky with great interest.

558
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 2: So noticing that we are finding ourselves, you know, we

559
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 2: are finding community in similar ways on Instagram and TikTok.

560
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 2: But Instagram, you know, much like Facebook and Twitter is,

561
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: it's not what it once was right. You can't have

562
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 2: the same kind of community that you might have once

563
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 2: been able to build. And so we're seeing this actually

564
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 2: happen over and over and over again. And the lesson

565
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 2: is that we have to build it, right. We have

566
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 2: to build our own thing if we want to have

567
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 2: our own thing and have it remain And the remaining

568
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: part has to be really intentional. It just really has

569
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 2: to be. We can't build a black sky. And this

570
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 2: is no shade to the black sky creators. I don't

571
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 2: know what their intentions are, but we can't build a

572
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 2: black sky and then allow it to ask everybody to

573
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 2: come and be part of that and then be like, oh, yeah,

574
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 2: actually it's a firefest.

575
00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: Right.

576
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 2: We're not going to do that in our own communities

577
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 2: to each other because everybody else has is yeah.

578
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

579
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 2: So some amount of fortifying self fortifying, I think is

580
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 2: really important in digital spaces as well. So all of

581
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 2: the black creators, all of the black entrepreneurs, all of

582
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 2: the black tech folks out there, get yourselves together. Let's

583
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 2: be in conversation and make sure that we are building

584
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 2: things in a way that will allow them to last.

585
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,399
Speaker 2: Now that being said, I also want to say that

586
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 2: not everything is made to last forever, and that there

587
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 2: is real value in allowing a process of forgetting. There's

588
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 2: value in that process of letting go right, And so

589
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 2: I think we need to be really careful too, that

590
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: we're not trying to hold onto something just for the

591
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 2: sake of holding on to it.

592
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that feels important. So you mentioned one of the

593
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,439
Speaker 1: examples you use was like thinking, well, Okay, I don't

594
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 1: want myself to kind of be video because twenty years

595
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 1: from now, I don't want some random AI video of

596
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: me doing a thing that I never did to show up.

597
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: What does it look like for us to have agency

598
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: in this process? Because it feels like this stuff is

599
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: like growing exponentially, like much quicker than like legislation can

600
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: keep up with it, and you know, all of the things.

601
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: Not that legislation is ever you know, like the be

602
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: all in all for us anyway, but it very much

603
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 1: feels like there's very little regulation and we are not

604
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 1: keeping at pace with like the way AI is growing.

605
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: So what kinds of things can we do to like

606
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 1: protect ourselves and to be thinking about like how to

607
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 1: retain our agency and constant as technology continues to you know, expand.

608
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:42,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, You're absolutely right that the law can't keep up. Certainly,

609
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 2: the legislation is nowhere near the pace of technological development,

610
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 2: and the folks who are working in that space have

611
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 2: been sounding alarm bells for a long hot minute. I'm

612
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 2: thinking of people like olandro Nelson, Ruhap, Benjamin Sofia and Obole, myself,

613
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 2: Andre brockunding bells and sounding bells. And I think that

614
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 2: what's challenging is that everybody wants to play, right. Everybody

615
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 2: wants to play with the technology. Everybody wants to know

616
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 2: how chat GPT works. And I don't think there's enough

617
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 2: information that folks don't have enough information to know that

618
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 2: there are potential downline effects or concerns. Right, if you

619
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 2: aren't a person who's watching black Mirror, you see chat

620
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 2: GPT as something that can just help you do X,

621
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 2: Y or Z right. It can help you get a

622
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 2: recipe together. I'm wanting to trust it to do that,

623
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 2: but it can help you do all kinds of things. Right,

624
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 2: It's a product, it's being sold. What's not being told

625
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,280
Speaker 2: to people is that all of the back end data

626
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:51,760
Speaker 2: collection is doesn't make a large language model a responsible

627
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 2: tool for your health, your wellness your anything right, and

628
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 2: looking to these digital tools like that is in the

629
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 2: long run, going to be deleterious. These are the alarm

630
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,720
Speaker 2: bells that people keep trying to raise. So I would say,

631
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 2: I know it's really easy for me to say do

632
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 2: your homework. But when I say do your homework, I'm

633
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 2: not saying like, you need to read my book. Please

634
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 2: do read my book. I'm not saying that you need

635
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 2: to go out and read a bunch of academic books.

636
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that you need to go read a

637
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 2: bunch of academic articles. I'm not even saying that. And

638
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 2: I would encourage you to try to read the terms

639
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 2: of service, but they write them in such a way

640
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 2: they don't want you to read them. Right. When I

641
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,720
Speaker 2: say do your homework, talk to people again. Talk to people.

642
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 2: Talk to people about their experiences. Ask the person that

643
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 2: you know that is closest to these technologies or closest

644
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 2: to this as their life's work. Or do you know

645
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 2: someone who is in tech. Do you know someone who

646
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 2: knows a little thing or two about coding? Ask them, Hey,

647
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,240
Speaker 2: what do you think about this technology? Do you think

648
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 2: I should be taking any steps to protect myself if

649
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,919
Speaker 2: I'm using TikTok in particular, because every technology is going

650
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 2: to be different and have different concerns, right that come

651
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 2: with it. For me, it's not actually possible to craft

652
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 2: a life in which I'm never going to be recorded.

653
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean that I'm not making more intentional offline choices, right,

654
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 2: And so there's balance there too, Understanding that we are

655
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 2: not going to be able to keep up with the

656
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 2: pace of how the technology is developing. It's not going

657
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 2: to be legislated rapidly enough in a way that's going

658
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 2: to protect us. What steps can we take? Understand how

659
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 2: the technology works, Understand who owns the technology, Understand what

660
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 2: they are gaining by giving you something that looks free.

661
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 2: They are gathering your data, they're pack they're reselling it.

662
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 2: You are the product, right. TikTok isn't the product. YouTube

663
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 2: isn't the product. It is a little bit, but you

664
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 2: are the product, right. Your data is extraordinarily valuable. So

665
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 2: perhaps the first question is how much of myself do

666
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 2: I want to give up? It's a hard one, but

667
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:25,879
Speaker 2: it is a compromise, and it is one that you're

668
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 2: making every time you use these technologies. How much of

669
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 2: myself do I want to give up? How much information

670
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,760
Speaker 2: do I want to share? How much of my data

671
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 2: do I want them to have? Right? And yes, if

672
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 2: you know somebody that works in any of these industries,

673
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 2: ask them, ask them. Is there something I should be

674
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:45,439
Speaker 2: concerned about here?

675
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: I'm curious, Tanya, because you said you taught a class

676
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,879
Speaker 1: I think last year, what kinds of conversations are young

677
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 1: people having about consent in like all of these, right,

678
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: because I think you know, you'd often think about young

679
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: people as being very eager. It's a kind of be

680
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 1: on top of technolog advances, but I would imagine there's

681
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 1: also some pushback and thinking through like Okay, what do

682
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,359
Speaker 1: I want this to mean in twenty years from now?

683
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: So I'm just curious, like, what kinds of insights thechae.

684
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 2: Maybe as a part of the clay is, Yeah, that's

685
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 2: a great question. Teach an undergraduate class called Information and

686
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 2: Power where we really go into a lot of these questions.

687
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 2: And then I taught that black Memory work class. And

688
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,439
Speaker 2: it's interesting because they kind of sit at opposite ends

689
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 2: of an intellectual spectrum. Right again, where the information and

690
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 2: power is content more like the digital afterlife conversation that

691
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 2: we're having, where we talk about things like consent, we

692
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:45,760
Speaker 2: talk about data collection, we talk about surveillance, and every time,

693
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 2: without fail, these students are learning something which that's not

694
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 2: just a credit to me as a professor. I'm not

695
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 2: patting myself on the back. What I'm saying is that

696
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 2: they didn't know. They didn't know which they to be

697
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 2: worried about or concerned about, and the class gives them

698
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 2: an opportunity to think about how they want to engage.

699
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 2: And I always assign in this Information and Power class

700
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 2: a forty eight hour offline assignment where they have to

701
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 2: go for forty eight hours and they're not allowed to

702
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 2: use their student ID. They're not allowed to use their phones,

703
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 2: no digital technologies. You can use electricity, listen to your recirl,

704
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 2: put your records on. Okay, I love it. But what

705
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 2: you can't do is call an uber or a lift.

706
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 2: You can't use your ID to your student ID to

707
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 2: get into your dorm or into the dining hall. And

708
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 2: it doesn't take more than forty eight hours for people

709
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 2: to realize how much of their lives is absolutely controlled

710
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 2: and determined by outside forces that are run by technology

711
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 2: companies like I couldn't do this. I couldn't do that.

712
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 2: I couldn't do this. I couldn't do that. I basically

713
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 2: had to sit at home for forty eight hours have

714
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 2: people like have my roommate bring me food. I just

715
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 2: didn't realize. I just didn't see it. And I think

716
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 2: once you see it, it's hard to unsee it.

717
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: Sounds like a powerful little example and a real uh

718
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 1: ipposunity for many of us to practice, like what would

719
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 1: even be like for it twenty four hours to like

720
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: not engage with any of your devices like.

721
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: That, Yes, that's right, and to really observe, well, what

722
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 2: can I do and what can't I do? Right? Where

723
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 2: can I go? Can I get on the subway? Can

724
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 2: I take the bus? Do I have to have my

725
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 2: phone to pay my bills?

726
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:43,720
Speaker 1: Yeah?

727
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 2: It's a lot of things that are touched by technologies

728
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:52,919
Speaker 2: in ways that we can't opt out right, And so

729
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 2: I think what tends to happen is this is the

730
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 2: moment for people and everyone who's listening. I would encourage

731
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 2: you to take this moment for yourself and just say

732
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 2: how much how much again? How much of myself do

733
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 2: I want to give up? How much of my time?

734
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: You know?

735
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 2: Understanding that I can't completely opt out. I can't say no,

736
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 2: I don't I don't want to have to use my

737
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 2: phone ever, it's not really practical in our modern society.

738
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean that you have to be posting

739
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 2: every single thought that you have or a Brazilian selfies, right, like,

740
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,879
Speaker 2: maybe there's room in there for moderation, for thoughtfulness, for consideration,

741
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 2: for taking a bit of a step back and reevaluating.

742
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 1: It has been so wonderful to learn so much more

743
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 1: about your works, Tanya. I really appreciate you spending the

744
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 1: same time with us today. Please let us know where

745
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 1: we can stay connected with you and learn more about

746
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 1: the work that you're doing. Do you have a website

747
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: as well as any social media handles you'd like to share?

748
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 2: Thank you, doctor Joy, Thank you so much. This has

749
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:59,760
Speaker 2: been a delight. My website is at Tanyasutherland dot com.

750
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 2: You can find links to my socials there, but you

751
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 2: can pretty much find me either at Tanya Sutherland or

752
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 2: at Tanya dot Sutherland depending on the platform.

753
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: And the name of the book and where can we

754
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: find it.

755
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 2: The name of the book is Resurrecting the Black Body

756
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 2: Race and the Digital Afterlife, and you can find it

757
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 2: anywhere that books are sold. You can order it directly

758
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 2: through the University of California Press website. You can get

759
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 2: it on Amazon, or please try your local bookshop.

760
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: Beautiful. We'll be sure to include all of that in

761
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:30,879
Speaker 1: our show notes. Thank you so.

762
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 2: Much, Thank you so much, what a pleasure.

763
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 1: Absolutely thank you, Tanya. I'm so glad doctor Sutherland was

764
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: able to join us for today's conversation. To learn more

765
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: about her and her work, be sure to visit the

766
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 1: show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com plash Session

767
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: four thirty eight, and don't forget to text two of

768
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: your girls right now and tell them to check out

769
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 1: the episode. Did you know that you could leave us

770
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 1: a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast.

771
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 1: If you have movies or books you'd like us to review,

772
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: drop us a message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy

773
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 1: for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.

774
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're

775
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist

776
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't

777
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: forget to follow us over on Instagram at Therapy for

778
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 1: Black Girls and come on over and join us in

779
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: our Patreon for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content, and

780
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: much more. You can join us at community dot therapy

781
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 1: for blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Aleise

782
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 1: Ellis Indichubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford.

783
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 1: Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.

784
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 1: I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all

785
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,359
Speaker 1: real soon. Take good care,