Speaker 1: Also media, Hello and welcome to the podcast. It's me
Speaker 1: James today and I'm very lucky to be joined by
Speaker 1: a couple of people who I'm about to introduce to
Speaker 1: discuss the very important topic of does Tyler and old
Speaker 1: give your baby autism? I think we probably already know
Speaker 1: the answer, but nonetheless we have half an hour to
Speaker 1: talk about it. So you were here, doctor Carve Hoder laughing,
Speaker 1: that's uh, that's cave.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Many of you will know him, but he's a medical
Speaker 1: doctor and host of the House of Pod podcast. And
Speaker 1: I'm also joined by Tyler Black, who's a psychologist in
Speaker 1: British Columbia. Welcome Tyler, chiatrist, psychiatrist. Fucked it up?
Speaker 2: Them fighting words, James them fighting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I know, yeah, this is yes. Like when
Speaker 1: people call me a sociologists, I understand, or even worse,
Speaker 1: an anthropologist.
Speaker 3: It's a pleasure to be here and no worries.
Speaker 2: Tyler is Canadian, so to see him correct somebody on
Speaker 2: something and makes me happy.
Speaker 3: I'm very sorry.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's why we get him on.
Speaker 2: He's very sorry, he's very sorry about that. I love
Speaker 2: Tyler very much. He comes on my show not infrequently
Speaker 2: and one really pleasant thing that's happened. One little bright
Speaker 2: spot in the last I don't know, five years of
Speaker 2: terror that have been happening medically is seeing Tyler gradually
Speaker 2: over time become grumpier and I'm more willing to fight.
Speaker 2: That's the only bright spot I've had. Thank you Tyler
Speaker 2: for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I imagine that's the side effect of your consumption
Speaker 1: of a seat of metaphana.
Speaker 3: Maybe send me to you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got a cut back, bro got cut back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right. For those not familiar, why are we
Speaker 1: talking about Tyler and All? Might be the name you're
Speaker 1: familiar if you, especially of your American people, like to
Speaker 1: use brand names a little more. I still find that
Speaker 1: very confusing, and I've lived here for a better part
Speaker 1: of two decades. But why are we talking about time
Speaker 1: and all?
Speaker 2: Tyler? Do you want to introduce this concept?
Speaker 3: Sure so, Yeah, tilan all goes by Parascenamol in UK
Speaker 3: and other places in the world. It's a seed of
Speaker 3: minifin here. So it really is not talking about talent,
Speaker 3: although the shorthand that the political people who've been talking
Speaker 3: about it have specifically called out the brand Talentol, which
Speaker 3: is bizarre. But this stems from both a mission that
Speaker 3: RFK Junior when he took over as the HHS sort
Speaker 3: of had, which was to find the cause of autism,
Speaker 3: which is his political quest to find some environmental cause.
Speaker 3: I mean, he started as an environmental lawyer. I don't
Speaker 3: think he's doing this disingenuously. I think he truly believes
Speaker 3: there was an environmental cause to autism. But of course
Speaker 3: RFK wheeled science probably driven by the brainworm, and so
Speaker 3: he has this way of having a conclusion and finding
Speaker 3: the science to support it. And it was very clear
Speaker 3: that he was going to point towards vaccine vaccine schedule,
Speaker 3: and at some point this is definitely coming. I think
Speaker 3: this might be a roundabout way to do it through
Speaker 3: fevers and talinol. But the talental link is something that
Speaker 3: has been a question mark. So a really quick aside
Speaker 3: will be that when drugs are regulated, the drug companies
Speaker 3: have very little natural interest to study it in pregnant people.
Speaker 3: It only brings them risk. There's no reason to do it.
Speaker 3: You are required to submit what studies you have on
Speaker 3: animal toxicity in utero and these types of things, but
Speaker 3: not really that much for humans, and so the drug
Speaker 3: companies usually put their hands up and go talk to
Speaker 3: your doctor about using this, and then the rest of
Speaker 3: us in medicine have to take that information that's been
Speaker 3: generated about this medication and try and interpret it on
Speaker 3: pregnant people. And it creates this system where we create
Speaker 3: the evidence over the next twenty years in what we
Speaker 3: call pharmacal vigilids or post marketing studies, where we basically,
Speaker 3: has there been a problem, did we find any birth effects?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 3: And we kind of do it backwards. It's kind of
Speaker 3: makes sense because you couldn't really do an RCAT on
Speaker 3: pregnant women to star with if you didn't know any
Speaker 3: reason for the drugs. So it's one of those sort
Speaker 3: of loopholes. And so this natural conversation has resulted in
Speaker 3: science that points in a number of directions. Does the
Speaker 3: cedamnifite cause autism? Can't be answered by the current science
Speaker 3: because it's all cohort data, it's looking backwards, it's looking
Speaker 3: at populations. It's confounded. However, the best study was published
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty four, which makes the timing of this
Speaker 3: announcement really awkward. There was two point five million people.
Speaker 3: It was a believe it's a Danish study Swedish study. Okay,
Speaker 3: and in that study there was a small link found,
Speaker 3: but because they had two point five million people, they
Speaker 3: could check that link by looking at sibling pairs within
Speaker 3: that two point five million. So in that group they
Speaker 3: had sixteen thousand sibling pairs both exposed to and not
Speaker 3: exposed to acetaminifin, and lo and behold they found that
Speaker 3: there was no relationship there. So this really is one
Speaker 3: of the more definitive correlational studies that says pretty much,
Speaker 3: any effect we're seeing is probably confounded. It probably isn't
Speaker 3: due to a cinemenifin. Though there are some animal studies
Speaker 3: that might hint at it, it appears to be minor
Speaker 3: and k I see are about to say something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, First of all, that's exactly right. I think that
Speaker 2: there are a lot of things that Maha and RFK
Speaker 2: Junior talk about that are just insane, and you can
Speaker 2: dismiss out of hand. This is a topic that is
Speaker 2: not complete rubbish. It is something that has a little
Speaker 2: bit of nuance and we can talk about as Tyler
Speaker 2: was just mentioning, there is some evidence that there might
Speaker 2: be a small relationship, but the real key is determining
Speaker 2: if it's a causal relationship or just correlative. Are they
Speaker 2: just related for some reason or another, or are they
Speaker 2: caused by each other? And that study that he talked about,
Speaker 2: that Swedish study looked at about one hundred and eighty
Speaker 2: thousand infants that had parents that were exposed to a cinemenafin.
Speaker 2: What's really elegant about that is that it looked at
Speaker 2: the siblings. That's why it's such an important study. And
Speaker 2: that's what I say, it closes the door on the matter.
Speaker 2: I agree with Tyler. I think the preponderance of evidence
Speaker 2: now is that there is no connection between town law
Speaker 2: and autism. But I don't know if this study totally
Speaker 2: closes the door. It is really well done though. So
Speaker 2: they showed that if you look at siblings, if you
Speaker 2: look at a family, there's no connection. You take out
Speaker 2: some of the variables, you take out some of the
Speaker 2: confounders there that can obfuscate or confuse an issue. You
Speaker 2: take those out of the picture, and you see that
Speaker 2: there's no relationship between town lam menaphin. What's interesting in
Speaker 2: that same study that sweet To study, if they then
Speaker 2: put those back in, if they didn't account for the siblings,
Speaker 2: then Yeah, showed that there is a little bit of
Speaker 2: evidence a small basic relationship between you know, senomenaphin and
Speaker 2: developing autism. But once you start accounting for some of
Speaker 2: these these really tough to account for variables, then you
Speaker 2: start to see that that falls apart, and that implies
Speaker 2: that most of these other studies are not causal but
Speaker 2: correlative relationships.
Speaker 3: The sort of twenty twenty five update is and I
Speaker 3: think this might have I think as that we learn
Speaker 3: more about it, this might have been something that was
Speaker 3: either solicited or developed in tandem with RFK and his goals.
Speaker 3: But there was a publication in twenty twenty five by
Speaker 3: I think the Harvard Dean of Medicine, who has been
Speaker 3: a plaintiff's witness for attorneys battling talentol in developing autism.
Speaker 3: So there is a bit of a financial conflict of
Speaker 3: interest there, right, Yeah. Baccarelli, Yeah, doctor Baccarelli, who published
Speaker 3: a study called a Navigation Review, and it's basically a
Speaker 3: science y version of let me tell a story, and
Speaker 3: here's the evidence that supports it. Basically, what they did
Speaker 3: is they took the number of studies, they counted the
Speaker 3: number that pointed towards talinol as a factor, and they
Speaker 3: counted against it, and they found about twenty something in total.
Speaker 3: The majority of them found a link to talent al
Speaker 3: and autism, and then a minority found no link. But
Speaker 3: of course that's not really how we do science. In
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, if we had two studies and you
Speaker 3: can actually look at his studies, and some of these
Speaker 3: studies are two hundred people, three hundred people, five hundred people,
Speaker 3: and then you have this other study that's two point
Speaker 3: five million people. You know, in the real world that
Speaker 3: larger study would dwarf the significance of the other ones.
Speaker 3: But in the way that this navigation study was set up,
Speaker 3: they're all kind of equal. In fact, he treats the
Speaker 3: non confounded sample that Cave was mentioning as its own study,
Speaker 3: and then he treats the controlled sample with siblings as
Speaker 3: its own studies. So the same study from Sweden was
Speaker 3: cited twice, one four and one against. You can see
Speaker 3: how you could shape a narrative, which is what a
Speaker 3: narrative review is. It's when you shape a narrative. It's
Speaker 3: not a very sciencey way to do things. We like
Speaker 3: to do systematic reviews, and this did provide a bit
Speaker 3: of cover because now everyone in AHHS can point to words.
Speaker 3: This study by the Harvard Deed of Medicine, published in
Speaker 3: BMC Environmental Study is peer reviewed showing that a navigational
Speaker 3: study shows that there could be a link. But it
Speaker 3: really if you read the study, any scientists reading it like, yeah,
Speaker 3: there could be a link, but the largest study in
Speaker 3: that group suggests there is no link.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, in terms of someone's playing games with evidence
Speaker 1: when they've already decided what they completly would it be. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's talk about this fascination with autism that exists in
Speaker 1: the MAHA. Right, make America healthy again. For those who
Speaker 1: are not familiar what's happening here, people are probably diagnosed
Speaker 1: with autism at a higher rate now than they were
Speaker 1: when these people were young. Right, that is not however, well,
Speaker 1: I will let you guys explain that. Explain how that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that we're giving children autism If that is
Speaker 1: my understanding is.
Speaker 3: Correct, sure, I mean I'll jump in first. So there's
Speaker 3: a number of ways to test whether or not the
Speaker 3: rate is truly increasing. So the first thing to say is,
Speaker 3: over the world, I've seen a gradual increase in the
Speaker 3: global population that has autism from about zero point eight
Speaker 3: percent of the population to about two percent of the population.
Speaker 3: That's what's happened over the past twenty five years of
Speaker 3: studies across the world. Now, that's not exactly the exponential
Speaker 3: rise that you often hear about in the United States.
Speaker 3: The United States has a lot of unique features though.
Speaker 3: You have a ton of people working in this area,
Speaker 3: you have a ton of researchers, lots of people have
Speaker 3: access to healthcare. There's many reasons why global numbers might
Speaker 3: not look like American numbers, but the general idea behind
Speaker 3: this increase rate of autism. Most of that increase is
Speaker 3: due to our change in diagnostics in the way that
Speaker 3: we label things. So when RFK was a kid, there
Speaker 3: were kids that were excluded from school because they were
Speaker 3: literally called retarded. They were not allowed to come to school.
Speaker 3: They were known as spass and goofs, and they were
Speaker 3: the ones that were made fun of and they struggled
Speaker 3: throughout life. Now that were they called autistic, No, did
Speaker 3: they have the same symptoms that the kids today that
Speaker 3: are being diagnosed with autism have And the way that
Speaker 3: we can control for that or there's some really elegant studies.
Speaker 3: One is we take diagnostic criteria from children and then
Speaker 3: we ask adults currently living today to go through a
Speaker 3: structured interview looking for those things. And yes, what we
Speaker 3: find the same rate in adults that we see in kids.
Speaker 3: This idea that it's an exponential rate. Now, I think
Speaker 3: the rate is also increasing, but I think it's increasing gradually,
Speaker 3: and this is because the extreme of ages are having
Speaker 3: kids more often, especially at the older end. And we
Speaker 3: do know that older age is related to autism, especially
Speaker 3: older age of the father. And we also know that
Speaker 3: premature babies and babies with significant developmental disabilities are surviving
Speaker 3: their post natal period as soon as they're born. Instead
Speaker 3: of instantly dying or dying during childbirth or not being
Speaker 3: able to be resuscitated, they're kept alive and survive and
Speaker 3: this is good. But this does mean that there's more
Speaker 3: neurodiversity in the world because of course these children have
Speaker 3: encountered significant harm.
Speaker 2: And I agree with that. I do think that the
Speaker 2: diagnostic criteria has expanded and that's part of why we
Speaker 2: see more. But yeah, I think the two things we
Speaker 2: know that are related are some genetic predisposition. If there's
Speaker 2: people in the family that have it, and the older
Speaker 2: age of patients, and as we get older. I'm an
Speaker 2: older father myself. You know, you see more with older patients,
Speaker 2: and that's more common now than it's ever been before.
Speaker 2: So these are all a part of it. And once
Speaker 2: you take a look, for example, going back to that
Speaker 2: Swedish study in twenty twenty four that was so good,
Speaker 2: that sibling study, looks at the genetics of it, And
Speaker 2: once you count for the genetics of it, you start
Speaker 2: to be able to say, Okay, maybe that's other stuff
Speaker 2: like tile mall isn't important? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, is there a gender element to this as well? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I may have misfremenbed here. My understanding is that women
Speaker 1: FEN people tended to be diagnosed at a lower rate
Speaker 1: until relatively recently.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So not only is there a gender component, but
Speaker 3: I do think that the bio logical sex of the
Speaker 3: child has an impact on the genetic expression, because it
Speaker 3: seems like the transmission to males is higher than the
Speaker 3: transmission to females. So there might be something buffering about
Speaker 3: that extra X chromosome. You know, we have this shrimpy
Speaker 3: little Y chromosome that makes us all degenerates. You only
Speaker 3: have one Y chromosome, Sorry, are you a super male?
Speaker 4: I have two wys caves y Why you know, Harry,
Speaker 4: My ears are so there are a number of disorders
Speaker 4: that the extra X chromosome is protective for, and I
Speaker 4: do wonder if that's the case for autism.
Speaker 3: But what's also true is we have stereotypes about what
Speaker 3: girls should be and what boys should be, and that
Speaker 3: leads to boys being diagnosed with autism more frequently than girls.
Speaker 3: So the girl that's quiet and awkward and anxious is
Speaker 3: labeled as an anxious kid a lot more quickly than
Speaker 3: when you see that in a boy that the parents
Speaker 3: think autism or the clinician thinks autism. So there could
Speaker 3: be some social reasons for that discrepancy as well. And
Speaker 3: then the last thing I really wanted to say is
Speaker 3: that the really tragic thing about all of this is
Speaker 3: profound autism, which autism is the spectrum. Profound autism is
Speaker 3: extremely disabling for people around the person. Generally, autistic people
Speaker 3: enjoy their lives, especially if the world is set up
Speaker 3: in a way so that they can live safely and
Speaker 3: without impediment. Autistic people are perfectly content to be autistic,
Speaker 3: and this whole idea of autism being this travesty, this epidemic,
Speaker 3: this blight on society, is really doing a disservice to
Speaker 3: the wide variety of people that we're now calling autistic,
Speaker 3: because when our criteria expanded, we created a whole space
Speaker 3: of autistic people who are very what we would call
Speaker 3: non profound autism. These are people that have difficulties in
Speaker 3: social communication or do the same thing over and over
Speaker 3: despite it being at an abnormal level, but it's what
Speaker 3: they need to soothe themselves, you know, that will be
Speaker 3: called autism.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: Now, would a parent want a child who's in a
Speaker 3: home constant rocking back and forth and just soothing themselves
Speaker 3: by licking their fingers or whatever, you know, some very
Speaker 3: severe autistic behavior. No, that probably wouldn't be the parents ideal.
Speaker 3: But I've worked with so much autism in my life.
Speaker 3: I'm a child anadists and psychiatrist. They've seen so many
Speaker 3: artistic kids. They can live happy, happy, happy lives autistic,
Speaker 3: So I'm not a fan of the blight sort of
Speaker 3: messaging of it either.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really glad you mentioned that, because that's one
Speaker 1: of the worst things about in a sense, one of
Speaker 1: the most damaging things about is where people who are
Speaker 1: living happy, healthy and fulfilled lives are being like slandered
Speaker 1: or pathologized to rided by the government of this country.
Speaker 1: And that's fucked yeah, and I'm sure will have an
Speaker 1: impact on those people because it would have an impact
Speaker 1: on anyone to see this condition that, as you said, right, like,
Speaker 1: maybe difficult for people who are not familiar with it
Speaker 1: to navigate, but it doesn't mean that you can't have
Speaker 1: a fulfilling and happy and very pleasant life. Suddenly suggested
Speaker 1: it some kind of massively disabling and terror travesty and
Speaker 1: that the person who gave birth to you is to
Speaker 1: blame for this, right.
Speaker 2: Right, That's what really bothers me, is like we're always
Speaker 2: trying to find ways to blame mothers. This is this
Speaker 2: is this is a mantle and I apologize for that. Listener,
Speaker 2: please don't at me for that. But part of what
Speaker 2: this is is like control over women. And you know,
Speaker 2: while that Swedish study of mention may not completely close
Speaker 2: the issue, I think it's pretty clear that the evidence
Speaker 2: pretty strong against there being a connection between taal Mual
Speaker 2: and to make a whole sale governmental recommendation that as
Speaker 2: a country, for us to move this way, to make
Speaker 2: such strong claims, to have a president come out and
Speaker 2: just say grit your teeth and bear it. To women
Speaker 2: in regards to the one medicine that we've told them
Speaker 2: they can use during a pregnancy is insane to me.
Speaker 2: So there's the autism issue and the insult essentially to
Speaker 2: that community, but also to women in general. It's insane
Speaker 2: to me that this is happening right now. Again, there
Speaker 2: is a bit of nuance to this issue. As I mentioned,
Speaker 2: it's not like totally insane to ask about and question it,
Speaker 2: but to make a wholesale directional change in how we
Speaker 2: recommend managing patients with our pregnant is is nuts. It's
Speaker 2: just nuts.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And to piggyback on that, you know, like it's
Speaker 3: really normal. It was normal advice in twenty twenty four
Speaker 3: for us to say, yeah, you can use talan all,
Speaker 3: but try to use it sparingly. We're not really sure
Speaker 3: use it when you need it though, because we do
Speaker 3: know that pain and fever and these types of things
Speaker 3: are bad for the baby, right, you know, So this
Speaker 3: kind of way in which it's now been massaged, So
Speaker 3: I saw a letter from doctor Marty Mackeriy, who's another
Speaker 3: grifter who's now in the American political system. There has
Speaker 3: written a letter basically saying at the bottom, use it judiciously,
Speaker 3: and it is the only one that's proved so. But
Speaker 3: that's exactly where we were before. There was no need
Speaker 3: for a past conference every doctor saying, use talanol sparingly,
Speaker 3: but you can use it.
Speaker 2: James, Can I tell you what's driving me crazy about this? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Please?
Speaker 2: This administration has done something. Trump in general has done
Speaker 2: something that has blown my mind, which is somehow, time
Speaker 2: and time again, I find myself defending people and things
Speaker 2: that I would never want to defend. Like, first of
Speaker 2: on watching Jimmy Kimmel, I don't know how that happened. Yes,
Speaker 2: I blame Trump for that. Second, like tylanol is a
Speaker 2: dangerous medication. I'm a liver doc. Yes, ideal, Like tylanol
Speaker 2: overdose is causing acute liver injury and acute liver failure
Speaker 2: is a massive, real issue across the world, and it is.
Speaker 2: It's it's a real thing. So there are reasons that
Speaker 2: we should be watchful of tailanol, but this is not
Speaker 2: one of them. Right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, personally, I'm a champion of all tailanol should be
Speaker 3: like the UK, it should be in individually wrapped pieces
Speaker 3: because there is evidence that that reduces the rate of
Speaker 3: intentional overdose and even icy overdoses that cause liver failure.
Speaker 3: So yeah, take away freedoms.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, this is the medical freedom crowd. It's amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we should take an advertising break and then come back.
Speaker 2: So we'll do that. Oh god, that would be fantastic
Speaker 2: if I could take an advertise. I could use an
Speaker 2: ad right now.
Speaker 1: So badyup. It's going to be for fucking lemon pepper water,
Speaker 1: which is the only pain treatment you should be taking.
Speaker 2: Bark to put between your teeth.
Speaker 1: Sure, yea, go get some leaves and fucking eat them.
Speaker 1: What can get wrong? All right, we're back. Thank you
Speaker 1: for that message from Leaf Pain Relief.
Speaker 2: Get the spot, it's good.
Speaker 1: Don't eat leaves. I saw someone posing with a they
Speaker 1: were taking their graduation pitch. Is very nice setting. I'm
Speaker 1: not going to say the flour, I guess just in case.
Speaker 1: You know, you can call it quite remarkable hallucinations and
Speaker 1: it is not a good idea to be like.
Speaker 2: Half in it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a nice looking flower. You didn't know you
Speaker 1: might have.
Speaker 2: Well, now I want to know what the hell you're
Speaker 2: talking about. You're gonna tell me later. I'm assuming you
Speaker 2: lived in California your whole life. How do you not
Speaker 2: know this? Yeah?
Speaker 1: It text you afterwards?
Speaker 2: Them dandelions? Is it dandelions?
Speaker 1: I've been told not to roses.
Speaker 3: It reminds me though there was a TikTok video of
Speaker 3: there's been a few of women proudly being pregnant and
Speaker 3: ingesting talanol. And to be clear, that's an insane response
Speaker 3: to this problem, Like, please don't take talanol as a point,
Speaker 3: as k was saying before the break, right, Helenol does
Speaker 3: deplete the glutathion in your body, and it is toxic
Speaker 3: to your liver. If you're a deliver, doesn't have the
Speaker 3: glue to thion necessary, it directly injures the liver. And
Speaker 3: this is what happens when you take an overdose, is
Speaker 3: it overwhelms the amount of gluteothion that your liver has
Speaker 3: and it causes liver damage.
Speaker 2: So in most pregnant women who want to keep the
Speaker 2: baby are very judicious to begin with, not just like
Speaker 2: downing shit. Willy nilly, you know what I mean? Like
Speaker 2: they're like, oh god, this is really bad. I bear
Speaker 2: take something and talent all, by the way, sucks, you know,
Speaker 2: as a pain medicine. You know it's not gonna It's
Speaker 2: like the thing you take when they won't give you
Speaker 2: anything else that's not a great one. So to take
Speaker 2: it from them without a good reason, without a proposed mechanism.
Speaker 2: If you're gonna make extraordinary claims, you have to have,
Speaker 2: if not extraordinary evidence por ponderance of it. So this
Speaker 2: is really bothering me, as you can tell, because it
Speaker 2: does not exist.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think something you mentioned earlier, like when like
Speaker 1: you said, you're back to to a corner where you're
Speaker 1: defending like a big farmer and tynel specifically, is the
Speaker 1: one thing that they've tried to do is like inhabit
Speaker 1: nuance and then disingenuously use it absolutely.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, that's the entire anti vaccines.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right, and then it leads to people responding
Speaker 1: in a way that it raises nuance entirely. I understand
Speaker 1: where we get that response, but like it's not the
Speaker 1: correct response, right, Yeah. People want you to be like
Speaker 1: this is one hundred percent safe, right. They want you
Speaker 1: to say this is actually the perfect medication and it's
Speaker 1: fine and you should have it for breakfast.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And the AHHS tweeted out statement that Talanol did
Speaker 3: in twenty seventeen basically saying, we don't recommend talent all
Speaker 3: and pregnancy. But no drug maker recommends any medication. They
Speaker 3: all say, specifically, talk to your doctor about this medication.
Speaker 3: They're not allowed to recommend the medication. Only doctors can't.
Speaker 3: So when they're using that language and then HHS tweets
Speaker 3: it out, HHS is tweeting it out specifically to give
Speaker 3: the illusion that we don't want pregnant people to be
Speaker 3: taking this medication. They specifically said we don't recommend it,
Speaker 3: and that's a nuance and that's how they use it.
Speaker 3: And it just sucks.
Speaker 2: Right, that's exactly right, and title mall the makers of it.
Speaker 2: By the way, I am curious about the fact that
Speaker 2: Johnson Johnson spun Off can view. I wonder if they
Speaker 2: knew this was coming and that's why they did it
Speaker 2: the same way that DuPont spun Off.
Speaker 3: It was only three years ago that they did that,
Speaker 3: you know, more.
Speaker 2: Like DuPont spun Off, the company in charge of all
Speaker 2: their pfasts they're forever chemicals because they knew shit was
Speaker 2: coming down the pipeline. I wonder if that was the
Speaker 2: same reason here Title Law did this.
Speaker 3: They put band aid and nutrigena in the same group,
Speaker 3: so I think it was more just to consolidate home stuff.
Speaker 2: Interesting. Yeah, got a.
Speaker 1: Press conference coming next week about band aid.
Speaker 2: It's can sick cause anxiety. Anyways, It's very interesting to
Speaker 2: me that this is happening at all. Really. I mean,
Speaker 2: what I thought was interesting about the press conference, and
Speaker 2: I wonder if you guys picked up on this too,
Speaker 2: was you know, I was wondering, why is this pivot happening?
Speaker 2: How can RFK Junior be happy about this? He can't
Speaker 2: be happy about leaving his crusade against vaccine. The Mohawk
Speaker 2: community behind him clearly doesn't love that aspect, and I
Speaker 2: wonder why they were pivoting to that, And I wonder
Speaker 2: what you guys think about that. I did feel that
Speaker 2: during that press conference, Trump really went out of his
Speaker 2: way to sort of give lip service we should we
Speaker 2: should talk about this too, about vaccines. He talked about
Speaker 2: vaccines a lot, even though there's no new evidence about
Speaker 2: vaccines causing problems, and Trump gave this terrible advice about
Speaker 2: breaking up the vaccines, which we know is a terrible
Speaker 2: idea because that's going to lead to decrease uptake overall,
Speaker 2: the more visits you have to go back to, the
Speaker 2: less likely you're going to do it, so the more
Speaker 2: likely you're not going to be vaccinated. But it made
Speaker 2: me wonder why this is happening now, why they decided
Speaker 2: to make this pivot, and I wonder what you both
Speaker 2: think about that.
Speaker 3: My theory is the link with fevers. If I'm being
Speaker 3: really conspiratorial, I would say that they're going to try
Speaker 3: and link vaccine induced fever to autism, and they're going
Speaker 3: to say, oh, we thought it was the tile and all,
Speaker 3: but it turns out to be the vaccines.
Speaker 2: It's the fever, and the fever is caused by the
Speaker 2: vaccine gines. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, My theory is gender. I think that telling pregnant
Speaker 1: people to suck it up is then you've got you know,
Speaker 1: you're dude still standing on the podium there, right, You're
Speaker 1: pregnant people are going to be women. It's something that
Speaker 1: men have been doing to women for millennia. Like it's
Speaker 1: a safer bet than yeah, your kid might die, but
Speaker 1: you know, you never know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which actually is you know. That brings up
Speaker 2: another thing that I think we should talk about, which
Speaker 2: is what Trump kept saying. Trump kept saying, don't take it,
Speaker 2: but he was like, what's the worst that happens? Nothing
Speaker 2: bad will come of it. So it invokes this precautionary principle,
Speaker 2: which is like, you know, why not avoid the talent all,
Speaker 2: what's the worst that can happen? And that doesn't work here. No,
Speaker 2: because we know that people are taking this for a fever.
Speaker 2: Tal Law is not good for inflammation, doesn't work on
Speaker 2: inflammation the way advilbbiprofene does it. But it can work
Speaker 2: on a fever. And we know that fever can have
Speaker 2: some risk at least as much, if not more than
Speaker 2: tilentol in harm to the baby, in harm to the pregnancy.
Speaker 2: So to me, the precautionary principle just doesn't apply here.
Speaker 2: And to hear the president, I never heard a president
Speaker 2: give medical advice before like that. It blew my mind.
Speaker 2: I felt like I was disassociating while I was watching this.
Speaker 2: I'm like, this cannot be realized. He said it so unequivocally,
Speaker 2: don't take talentol.
Speaker 3: Just it up. And I tweeted something that I read
Speaker 3: from doctor Glockenplocken, who's one of my favorite medical comedians.
Speaker 3: But he said this will kill people, and I do agree.
Speaker 3: I think people were very incredulous when I when I
Speaker 3: said this will kill people, and they were like, what
Speaker 3: do you mean people dying of a fever. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 3: kind of like fevers can be really bad for you.
Speaker 3: And if you're not going to hospital and the only
Speaker 3: thing you have is talentol, it's a really good idea
Speaker 3: to take the talent ol. And there's some people that
Speaker 3: don't go to hospital for lots of reasons, and fevers
Speaker 3: can kill you. They just can.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I disapprove of the Canadian and englishmen referring to
Speaker 2: the hospital as hospital. They need you guys to refer
Speaker 2: to it as of the hospital.
Speaker 1: Forgotten about that? Yeah, always for the definite article.
Speaker 3: Yeah, taking it to a hospital, Thank you guys.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think you're right like that. There is
Speaker 1: no like no harm option here, right, like that is
Speaker 1: a damage is done when people don't take this, right.
Speaker 3: I just imagine this this poor mom you know at home,
Speaker 3: you know doesn't have great healthcare, but does have a
Speaker 3: bottle of talentol and is battling a sorry, I'll americanize
Speaker 3: this like one hundred and four degree fever.
Speaker 2: Thank you don't make me do mad?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're to make me do mad, you know. And
Speaker 3: and you know, it's it's around that one hundred and
Speaker 3: three hundred and four mark where we actually get really
Speaker 3: worried about the person's brain. We get really worried about
Speaker 3: their health and what's going to happen, and what would
Speaker 3: happen to that person in hospital? They would absolutely get
Speaker 3: talent al right away, prescribed by a doctor right that moment.
Speaker 3: And so I worry about this. I worry about this
Speaker 3: mom presenting a hospital with her fever. She's pregnant, and
Speaker 3: the doctors say, okay, we're going to give you talinol,
Speaker 3: and she says, no, you're right, what because I don't
Speaker 3: want I don't want my child to have autism? Because
Speaker 3: people are listening to this guy. First of all, again
Speaker 3: the hospital. Second, they're going to listen to this guy.
Speaker 2: It's insane.
Speaker 3: People are really going to take this advice. And I
Speaker 3: could see, you know, especially the more Trump following people
Speaker 3: saying you will never give me talentol, not in this hospital, right,
Speaker 3: And so it does sound silly that not taking talentol
Speaker 3: could kill you. But if you're so scared of talentol
Speaker 3: because it causes autism that you don't take it when
Speaker 3: it's recommended to you by a doctor, where it's prescribed
Speaker 3: to you by doctor, you could die. And I won't
Speaker 3: be surprised when there are more fever induced deaths in
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five and twenty twenty six in the United States.
Speaker 3: I already have the CDC Wonder Data search ready to
Speaker 3: go because I study mortality all the time, and I
Speaker 3: am absolutely sure we're going to see a few more
Speaker 3: fever induced deaths than we would have previously.
Speaker 1: Geez, yeah, maybe like we can finish up by explaining
Speaker 1: to people like, you know, if you're talking to someone
Speaker 1: in your family, right, someone who maybe isn't a listener
Speaker 1: to either of our podcasts. I know this isn't directly
Speaker 1: the area either of you specializing, but from what I understand,
Speaker 1: pregnant people like the way that drugs are categorized, as
Speaker 1: we spoke about earlier on. There's not like, yeah, go
Speaker 1: ahead and take all of these, right, there's like probably
Speaker 1: fine if you have to, probably a bad idea unless
Speaker 1: you really need to, and like maybe some straight up don't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: can you explain that for people?
Speaker 3: Sure, So there's a classification system and it's technical, but
Speaker 3: it's exactly like that. There are very few medications that
Speaker 3: are like totally fine. These are medications that are given
Speaker 3: during pregnancy that have been well studied in pregnancy. But
Speaker 3: for the most part, pretty much everything else in my
Speaker 3: world of psychiatry, you know, SSRIs and antipsychotics and benzodiazepines
Speaker 3: and whatnot, they all have the same classification, which is
Speaker 3: basically contraindicated, don't take it unless your doctor persudes it
Speaker 3: for you. Now, we still get pregnant people with depression
Speaker 3: and psychosis and who need all these medications, and so
Speaker 3: we do have to interpret it based off of the
Speaker 3: data that we have, and the data that we have
Speaker 3: always comes late, so if we find a problem, it's
Speaker 3: found too late, and generally it's precautionary. So typically I
Speaker 3: don't know cave if there's a similar thing in GI work,
Speaker 3: But like for me, I'll get a call all the time. Well,
Speaker 3: we have this woman, she's thirty two, she's really worried.
Speaker 3: She normally takes antidepressants, but she's thinking about stopping them
Speaker 3: because she's really worried about passing into her baby or whatever.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, how bad is the depression. Well, it
Speaker 3: was really bad. She was hospitalized three times and nearly died.
Speaker 3: I was like, probably want to keep antidepressant treatment going
Speaker 3: and just let her know that there could be some
Speaker 3: harm to the fetus. But depression is way worse. And
Speaker 3: if we just go with God, you know, do your best.
Speaker 2: There are certain medications where we are going to say
Speaker 2: you absolute should take these during pregnancy. Yeah, and you
Speaker 2: should discuss that with your obstrician, to talk that over
Speaker 2: with yourcologist and your your primary care doctor. You should
Speaker 2: talk it over with your medical team. That's great, But
Speaker 2: every medication has some small amount of risk, some larger
Speaker 2: than others. But it's really about the risk versus the benefit.
Speaker 2: And this has been well studied by the experts, and
Speaker 2: what you've heard, what those people have heard from Trump
Speaker 2: and RFK Junior is well outside of the normal recommendations
Speaker 2: from the experts like the ACOG, the American College of Obstetricians,
Speaker 2: and kindecologists, the people who have been keeping our pregnant
Speaker 2: patients alive and relatively well for many many years. This
Speaker 2: is well outside of those recommendations. And while it's an
Speaker 2: interesting topic and I think, maybe, you know, sure, i'd
Speaker 2: like to see more studies on it, I'm never going
Speaker 2: to say don't study this more. I would say that
Speaker 2: the preponderance of evidence and scientific belief and medical belief
Speaker 2: in this one goes against what they're saying. And I
Speaker 2: would say, least talk it over with your doctor. If
Speaker 2: you have a question, talk it over with your doctor.
Speaker 2: And that's you mentioned it before. Town law has sort
Speaker 2: of like, you know, try to hedge its bets by saying,
Speaker 2: talk it over with your doctor. But the reason they
Speaker 2: do that is they know most doctors are going to
Speaker 2: be reasonable about this and follow the scientific evidence that's there.
Speaker 2: So I would say if they really have a question,
Speaker 2: they should talk about with their doctor. Because Trump, whether
Speaker 2: or not they love him or not, this is well
Speaker 2: out of his range of understanding, and he is getting
Speaker 2: It's like a game of telephone. He's getting a version
Speaker 2: of the medical information transmit to him by RFK Junior,
Speaker 2: who is getting a weird version of it from his
Speaker 2: belief system, and it's being supported by people who are
Speaker 2: there solely just just there to do the beck and
Speaker 2: call of Trump at this point, and that's super dangerous.
Speaker 2: And so if they can keep an open mind about it,
Speaker 2: talk it over with their doctor, continues to do what
Speaker 2: their parents did, I think they're going to be okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, real quick, because like for reasons that are life
Speaker 1: you related to the way that we do healthcare in
Speaker 1: the United States, people sometimes are retident to talk to
Speaker 1: their doctor, unable to talk to a doctor. Reliable sources
Speaker 1: of medical information versus the shit that you find on Google.
Speaker 1: Give us like a five minute primer.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So you know, in almost every jurisdiction there is an
Speaker 3: official health agency that you can go to their website
Speaker 3: and get good health data. So in BC, we have
Speaker 3: Health Length BC and there's a number that you can
Speaker 3: call to speak to a nurse. In America, you have
Speaker 3: great I would say it used to be great. Like
Speaker 3: Cleveland Clinic used to be really great, but they got
Speaker 3: a little hokey. I would still say, you know, there
Speaker 3: are some really good American places that you can go.
Speaker 3: Male Clinic has a lot of public facing information that
Speaker 3: has pretty good general descriptions, but just make sure it's
Speaker 3: from a place that is official because there is a
Speaker 3: whole space now that's going to be opened up because
Speaker 3: the second part of this present that RFK gave was
Speaker 3: about a generic medication that might help some people with
Speaker 3: a very specific form of autism. And I promise you
Speaker 3: the amount of huckstering that's going to happen based on that.
Speaker 3: The alternatives. You know, we made a joke about lemon
Speaker 3: water before the ad break, but there are going to
Speaker 3: be people who are going to be selling the alternative
Speaker 3: titalinol that is autism free, and that's really worrisome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, be wary of anyone that has something in their Instagram,
Speaker 2: their talk, their wellness post that uses the words detox.
Speaker 2: Be wary about ancient remedies. Be wary about anyone that
Speaker 2: is selling something like doctor Oz, who, by the way,
Speaker 2: sells a version of the full linic acid or the
Speaker 2: leucovorin that they're talking about here, So be wary about that.
Speaker 2: We don't sell shit. Be wary about people like doctor Baccarelli,
Speaker 2: the dean of Harvard Epidemiology, who, by the way, I've
Speaker 2: heard is a doctor from the friends I have in Harvard,
Speaker 2: they say he's not a bad guy. But be worry
Speaker 2: about the fact anytime you see someone's making one hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty thousand dollars off of court trial to sue
Speaker 2: tail and all and has a vested interest in these things,
Speaker 2: so you should be worry about those things. That's definitely
Speaker 2: something to look for in if you're looking for trusted source.
Speaker 2: Speaking of hucksters, you could listen to my podcast The
Speaker 2: House of Pod anywhere you find podcasts where we're going
Speaker 2: to talk about medical stuff just like this, and I
Speaker 2: will bring you trusted sources.
Speaker 1: Beautiful. That's that was all a long play to get
Speaker 1: to listen to Kave's podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm in it for the long con. I'm in it
Speaker 2: for the long con, buddy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for helping us clear that up a bit.
Speaker 1: I think it's it's a real rough time for healthcare
Speaker 1: in general, and especially people with autism, like like well
Speaker 1: nero divergent people. It really fucking sucks to see the
Speaker 1: entire federal government bad mouthing people. So, yeah, we are
Speaker 1: thinking of.
Speaker 3: You, very similar to the issue with trans kids. Like
Speaker 3: I'm a Canadian, you know, and we have right next
Speaker 3: door to my province, Alberta, which is very much taking
Speaker 3: the route of Florida and other things with respect to
Speaker 3: trans policies, and it's just got to suck to be
Speaker 3: a trans kid in Florida right now. It's got to
Speaker 3: suck to be a trans kid anywhere in America right now,
Speaker 3: knowing what's coming down the pipeline. And it'll be the
Speaker 3: same for people with autism and families with autistic kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep. I could conservatively complain about this for another
Speaker 2: three hours.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: We didn't even talk about hepatitis B. By the way,
Speaker 2: we even talk about hepatities. People can talk about this
Speaker 2: on the point. There's just so much. There's so much,
Speaker 2: and it's so terrible, and you're absolutely right, it's really
Speaker 2: like for that community right now.
Speaker 3: By the way, I wanted to debunk something because it's
Speaker 3: been said multiple times.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I get it.
Speaker 3: RFK and a whole bunch of people have said, I
Speaker 3: didn't know anybody autistic when I was you know, when
Speaker 3: I was a kid or whatever. I've never met someone
Speaker 3: autistic my age. Donald Triplett was the very first person
Speaker 3: diagnosed with autism in nineteen forty three, I believe nineteen
Speaker 3: forty three. He just died last year. I think he
Speaker 3: was something like eighty ninety years old. Okay, autistic people
Speaker 3: are old too. This idea that there aren't old autistic
Speaker 3: people is so asked backwards. It was just not diagnosed. Yes,
Speaker 3: And it's such a shame because when Donald Triplett passed,
Speaker 3: you know, like people in psychiatry notes, that's not the
Speaker 3: type of thing that people in the world noticed. But
Speaker 3: he was the very first autistic person. He lived a
Speaker 3: full life, he was an engineer. He had autism, it
Speaker 3: was diagnosed. He was the first ever case diagnosed, and
Speaker 3: he also lived a life. And so for rfk to
Speaker 3: just erase him completely and say I've never known an
Speaker 3: old person to have autism is just ridiculous.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you conduct yourself as Rskade does, but
Speaker 1: being a piece of shit to neurodivergent people, then even
Speaker 1: people who have been diagnosed, I'm just going to be like, hey,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I wanted to talk to you about more
Speaker 1: about life because you're being a turn to them and
Speaker 1: like you're being unkind, Yeah, like what do you expect?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, yeah, Tyler Brandon is like how old
Speaker 2: is she now? Like in her seventies. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: it's absurd to think that this is a totally new thing.
Speaker 2: I mean, it also tells me that he was probably
Speaker 2: a bit sheltered and it probably didn't mean enough people.
Speaker 3: Wow Kennedy sheltered?
Speaker 1: Well yeah, yeah, he's had a different experience of life
Speaker 1: than any of us. It's fair to say.
Speaker 3: I got through the whole podcast without making a toddler
Speaker 3: and all pun. I'm very proud of that. I usually
Speaker 3: do pretty much every time, and it kisses my wife
Speaker 3: off so much.
Speaker 2: I'm really proud of you.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 2: You showed a lot of growth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's great. I was gonna make one, but
Speaker 1: I didn't want to want to offend. Yeah, thank you
Speaker 1: very much. Where can people find both of you on
Speaker 1: the internet if they'd like to, oh, you know, in person?
Speaker 2: Don't find me? Yeah, I give that as You can
Speaker 2: listen to my podcast, The House of Pod. Anywhere you
Speaker 2: listen to podcasts, you'll hear people like James, you'll hear
Speaker 2: people like Tyler. Last time Tyler was on was actually
Speaker 2: for episode two eighty four. We did an episode on
Speaker 2: Adult ADHD with author Rex King. She's rad So that's
Speaker 2: a good episode to listen to. And you can find
Speaker 2: me on Blue Sky at CAVEMD. I still have a
Speaker 2: Twitter account and Instagram account, but I don't really use
Speaker 2: those that much. So find me on Blue Sky Blue Sky,
Speaker 2: by the way as a shout out, as a plug.
Speaker 2: I think it's good for science if you're interested in
Speaker 2: science based stuff. It may not be that much fun
Speaker 2: for everything else, but at least in terms of like
Speaker 2: if you want to follow doctors scientists, that's a good
Speaker 2: place to go. That's that's where a lot of us
Speaker 2: have gone. So I'll be there at Blue Sky.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm I am still on Twitter Tyler Black
Speaker 3: thirty two. I'm slugging it out. It is a lot
Speaker 3: of hate and a lot of death threats now, especially
Speaker 3: as I've I've been on a few trans podcasts, I've
Speaker 3: been on quite a few medical anti vacs and vaccine podcasts,
Speaker 3: So you know, I'll pop up from time to time
Speaker 3: on a podcast or something, but I'm not really have
Speaker 3: anything to plug anymore. I'm just really hoping that we
Speaker 3: can continue to fight this sort of It's a really
Speaker 3: disgusting reality in this decade that misinformation has won the
Speaker 3: day and literally misinformers are the political leaders now, and
Speaker 3: misinformation has just eroded science to the point where I
Speaker 3: don't know if America is ever going to get it back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if we do, this has set us back many years.
Speaker 2: This has set us back many many years. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: pretty bleak.
Speaker 3: Well that was fun.
Speaker 1: De's send on that hopeful note. Yeah, all right, it.
Speaker 5: Could happen Here is a production or Cool Zone Media.
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