1 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 2 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: I'm Joe wisn't thal Unfortunately my normal co host, Tracy 3 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: Alloway isn't here today, so it'll just be me. But 4 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: if she were here today, I would call back to 5 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: mind several weeks ago when we were talking about Game Stop, 6 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: and I complained in some of those episodes about the 7 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: Game Stop story, and I complained that throughout the Game 8 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 1: Stop story that numerous people were offering up their uninformed 9 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: takes on the subject. Everybody seemed to have something they 10 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: wanted to say about it, something about class warfare or 11 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: something about the structure of the market. And by and large, 12 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: most of those were not particularly interesting or informed, and 13 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: Tracy got mad at me for take policing, so to speak. 14 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: But there was one, um, one thing I read that 15 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: definitely caught my attention and UH sort of surprised me 16 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: when I saw it, and that was a piece in 17 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: UH the UK magazine The Spectator titled corruption for Everybody. 18 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: And the author of that piece is the well known 19 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: philosopher Slavoy Jack. He's at the University of London and 20 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: the University of Lubeleana Slovenian professor Offer, author of numerous books. 21 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 1: Filmmaker created the documentary widely viewed titled The Perverts Guide 22 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 1: to Ideology and a sort of well known leftist Marxist 23 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: psychoanalyst philosopher talking about game stop realier treating me, and 24 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: so I thought, why don't we get him on the 25 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: show and talk about stocks and the market and the 26 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: economy in the world today and anything else that's on 27 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: his mind. And so he's here today and I'm so 28 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: very excited to bring in uh Slavoya Jack. Thank you 29 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: so much for joining us. What made you write about 30 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: the story? You don't normally like write something about a 31 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: stock or the stock market. What was it about this 32 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: that suddenly like captured everyone's attention and you wrote this 33 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: essay the corruption for everybody? It was the memory of 34 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: as I said in the text of Chroad Elections a 35 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: year ago, this really happened. It's not my imagination, although 36 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: I love imaginary examples. I invented that a guy there 37 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: an extra I learned he was well known ector in 38 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: Croat national theater, made presidential campaign who had said the 39 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: problem now is that corruption is limited to those who 40 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 1: are inside. But I promise corruption for everybody I love, 41 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 1: that everybody will be able to be corrupted, and so on. 42 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: We'll get pas short their piece of the pipe in 43 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: the corruption. And I thought, isn't something similar at work 44 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: in wolstred Bets againstock stuff and graven and travel. Now, 45 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: I don't want to be accused of bluffing too much, 46 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: so let me just make a very brief two points 47 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: of self presentation. First, I don't think I know I 48 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: try to reach stuff and shown, but that I know 49 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: too much about all the technical details about economy, you know. 50 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: So what I'm saying is that what fascinated me in 51 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: a Gainstock story is a certain logic that I saw 52 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: in it, which is, on the one hand, I know 53 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: there is a very interesting vision in it, vision of 54 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: a truly popular or populist capital vision every one of 55 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: us can do it. On the other hand, what in 56 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: tres me more? And that's they in my domain ideology 57 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: even more interesting. So it's not the version of everybody 58 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: can do it. If you have a permanent drop in 59 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: the morning, you work, or you work from all whatever, 60 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: and g I was in the evening, anybody can do 61 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: it and so on and so on. What interested to 62 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: me is again two crucial features. The first one is 63 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 1: that it's the counterpoint of experts, and that's why they succeeded. 64 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: What do you mean by this? You know there was 65 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: a certain tendency among others. I don't trust him in 66 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: a mask proposed this and didn't two guys, a lady 67 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: and the men already you must know this better than me, 68 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: already a year a year and a half ago, didn't 69 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: they propose an algorithm, a program which enables you to 70 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 1: play the stock market. And it got certain pennic on 71 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:07,679 Speaker 1: Wall Street because the rumor was that the algorithm which 72 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: the texts the market, proposes investments that's on average. On average, 73 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: there are always exceptions, and we stay slightly better job 74 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 1: than your stock market representatives. So who needs Wall Street 75 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: when algorithm can do it better? What interested me here 76 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: is dead on Street Best and then game Stop. It's 77 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: not this, but it's in some way a counterpoint because 78 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: what I find so immensely attractive I was tended to 79 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: play it with game Stock best is that let's say 80 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: you are a perfect scientist, at least if I doubt it. 81 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: Stock market games are science. You know all the tendencies 82 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: to players, You know the influence of whether and someone like, okay, 83 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: you can play this game professionally, But isn't the big 84 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 1: revolution of game stock that they consciously didn't want at 85 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: a certain trend and to know too much. Their strongest 86 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: card was, we don't know it. We're going to introduce scares. 87 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: Let's pick up on GameStop or whatever, and nobody will 88 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,119 Speaker 1: know why did we pick up this one. This will 89 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: then introduce fantasy scales and so on. Stocks will go 90 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: up down and so on. And the idea is we 91 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: basically I simplify it a little bit, I know, but 92 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: the basic idea is we don't care what really goes on. 93 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: This game stock has a certain new product or whatever. 94 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: We just want to shock the market. What big things are. 95 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: Success is not the reality of production, but the enigmatic 96 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 1: character of our act People will immed day it is, 97 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: then it will go down. And you know google short 98 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: term speculators. When things go up and down quickly, if 99 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: you're intelligent here you can run quite a lot. So 100 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: this is what interests me, and especially again this reaction 101 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: to the idea of expert knowledge, and that's what they find. 102 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: It's a regel yer. Things always fascinate me when a 103 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: certain tendency, as it were, falls apart into its opposites. 104 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: For example, we thought trapically goes with democracy. Yes, but 105 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: we have today China. And it's not only China where 106 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: I will be very brief what shocked me so much 107 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: today in China. Let's not exaggerate the success of China, 108 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: because when Chinese are now proud, you see we did it, 109 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: Covide with ominated it. Yeah, but I always like to 110 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: annoy my Chinese friends by telling them, waiter minute, there 111 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: is a country which you want to swallow, but they 112 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: don't want to be swallowed by you, which did even better. 113 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: It's Iwan, Taiwan. It is the true miracle in COVID. 114 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: China combines what seems incredible for us, the wildest capitalism 115 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: speculations blah blah, and strong authoritarian power. It is as 116 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 1: if we and something similar second to me here. So 117 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: I'm here very realistic. I'm not playing an old Marxist 118 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: to cortual decadence. There is something strangely very liberating in this. 119 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 1: I think that on the one time, you have what 120 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 1: I call ironically a communist tendency on the on the 121 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: wall street in stock exchange, because you know, if you 122 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 1: really can trust algorithms, then why do we need to 123 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,079 Speaker 1: stop exchanges at all. On the other hand, one of 124 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 1: my sevant anecdotes from Stalinism. I read it Insiders Memoirs, 125 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: and people noticed that, you know, Stalin got many evenings 126 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 1: one thousand names of everybody who will be condemned to death, liquidated, 127 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: And of course Staling didn't have time to study all 128 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: the cases, but like every fifty yes name something like 129 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: that got a part of and they asked him, but 130 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: why do you decide for that guy? You know what 131 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: Stalin said? He said, I don't know. It just adds 132 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,839 Speaker 1: the enigma. People will think that I was thinking that 133 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: I have some mysterious reasons, and so on and so on. 134 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: That's so fascinating for me. The very gesture of arbitrarily 135 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: deciding something racist the mystery and soon makes the game run. 136 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: So to just to define myself to shop your public, 137 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: I think COVID and pandemics, other pandemics and the global 138 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: warming and so on will demand from us. I use 139 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: this term to provoke people some kind of communition. Don't 140 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: be afraid by this. I mean God forsake us, no China. 141 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:27,479 Speaker 1: What I mean is simply some kind of social control, 142 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 1: but not safe control in economy. Limit the market, not 143 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: abolished the market. I know the efficiency of the market, 144 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: but look at what Biden did now one trillion, nine 145 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,839 Speaker 1: hundred millions. Sorry, no way can you justify this with 146 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 1: capitalist logic. But at the same time, now comes the 147 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 1: beauty when people ask me, what what time of the 148 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: communist you are? As played? No joke, moderately conservative problemists first, 149 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: moderately we never master the game. We do something, the 150 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: effect could be the opposite. To Valence volen Svant, it's 151 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 1: always violent error. That's why I am fast. You know 152 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: who is at this point my favorite politician in the world, 153 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: maybe looks on our set the new after Morales and 154 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 1: Linera now the new trillion elected president of Bolivia. She 155 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: was the true master of moderate but nonetheless economic miracle 156 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 1: during the Morals years. And she was radical leftist but 157 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: very cautious, moderate conservative. And surprise, surprise, it was not 158 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: the traversant custom story. You know, it's not the usual story. 159 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: Radical Lef's this take it over and then in one 160 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 1: year they screw it up for ten years and they 161 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: did it. Let'stis who are aware that we are slowly 162 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: pushed towards more, but who are at the same time 163 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:09,599 Speaker 1: aware that police would be extremely What interests me the 164 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: morning costa life change for ordinary when the enthusiasm over 165 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,959 Speaker 1: really this year something. I want to go back to 166 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: this idea of the disconnect and just going back to 167 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: stocks for a second, even though the conversation is much 168 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: deeper than that, This disconnect between the thing, the company, 169 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: game stop, and then the stock itself completely divorced from 170 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 1: any sort of like underlying reality of production. And I 171 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: think we're in an age in which, at least in 172 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 1: the US, there is an extraordinary amount of speculation. Speculation 173 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: is in the air. People are buying everything stocks and 174 00:12:55,320 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: collectibles and uh commodities, and I'm curate crypto currencies, and 175 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 1: I'm sort of like curious your take on what it 176 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: says when we get this sort of like further for 177 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 1: the public for speculation in general taking over consuming so 178 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 1: many people's minds. First, I will say that, yes, strange 179 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: things are going on in the sense that you remember 180 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: this was a stock for many economies. They tried to 181 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: provide explanations. I read them. I don't think they were 182 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: good explanations. You remember in United Kingdom and the US 183 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: the same day when it was announced that we are 184 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: in the greatest crisis after the big one Late plenty, 185 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: early service com many new unemployed, production failed for thirty 186 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: percent and so on, stock market went up. How is 187 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 1: he the crisis in production and so on did not 188 00:13:53,720 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 1: reflect itself in stock market? Now. I think that there 189 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 1: are many explanations. One was that most of this upward 190 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: movement was just reflecting to make a big companies. I 191 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: think that something is happening here and it's not necessarily bad. 192 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: This shows that not only capitalism the way we knew 193 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: it were in some mediate way. Nonetheless, stock market variations 194 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: reflect what happens in so called real economy, but that 195 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: you can treat a little bit, but at the end 196 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: point reality strikes, bites back or the host. You know, 197 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: it's interesting that this obsession with find the settlement of accounts. 198 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: We can speculate, but it's all shocks term. But at 199 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: the end reality strikes that we will have to pay. 200 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: Do you know that this is what two big opponents, 201 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: liberals and orthodox Marxist share March's idea is at the end, 202 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: crisis will strike it back. Liberals I mean not political liberals, 203 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: But market liberals also claim you can feed only up 204 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: to some extent. At the end you have to pay 205 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: the price to this. My answer is still the wonderful 206 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: saying you must all as everybody knows it. By John 207 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: Minard Games, we said, don't mention in the long term 208 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: too much. In the long term we are all depical. 209 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: The magic of capitalism is precisely this eternal post coverment. Yes, 210 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: capitalism is beat or fictions, but these fictions can produce themselves, 211 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: and there is no natural limit. Well, okay, makes people 212 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: say ecology when nature is disintegrating too much? Is it 213 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: a certain limit? But not necessarily for capitalism. Listens, is 214 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: this incredible plasticity of reinventing itself just changing investment into 215 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: But what on saying is that this is for me 216 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: a strength of capitalism. A progressive society should also my 217 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: vision of what to provokee my friends, I called capitalism 218 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: communism should also should retain this element of incredible plasticity. 219 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by all these magnesses of the market. You 220 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: know what this my big opponent today, It's this conservative reaction, 221 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: like that things are getting too wild. We need to 222 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: return to some socials. I call it six more natural, 223 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: stable way of life, either traditional patriarchal or exist more 224 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: stable society or smaller organic communities, and shawon and shawon. No, 225 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think that capitalism, let's be 226 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: frank retained, it's great revolutionary strength. What is going on today? Now? 227 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: I'm in the mood of ironically, of course, phraising capitalism, 228 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: me to LGBT plus and so on. I spoke with 229 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: some global historians, people who still exist but not empty speculators, 230 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:31,959 Speaker 1: who look at the entire history of Tumanity, and they 231 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: told me, no, no, look in a bombastic marchis very 232 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: very realistically and they told me March made one mistake 233 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: when he simply talked about primitive three class societies. No, 234 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: the first big break is there, as many people know, Neolithic, 235 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: that is to say, pass it from no much school 236 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: settlements with agricultural buildings and so on and so on. 237 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 1: This is before classes emerged at that point with neolytics, 238 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: before class society. This almost eternal for us. Patriarchal order 239 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: with traditional roles of men women emerges. The capitalism is 240 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: ruining this today with me to everybody class and so on. 241 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: Exchange not only the vision which was in all class societies, 242 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: but even earlier from neolithic That's how radical it is 243 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: what's going on today in capitalism. We still should build 244 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: on this destructive, creative power of capitalism. There is no 245 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 1: progress without going through capitalism. Also capitalism in its craziest, 246 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: the craziest speculations, plasticity of human relations, and so on 247 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: and so on. The temptation is so strong today, especially 248 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: with glowing economic crisis, and want to say, no, we 249 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: meant too far into someone modest organic ray or life. No, 250 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: we should go to the end. You know, it's interesting 251 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: you mentioned the Biden stimulus and one point nine trillion dollars. 252 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 1: I'm curious if you think there's what sort of divergence 253 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: you're seeing between what's going on in the US versus 254 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: what's going on in Europe, where we don't see that 255 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: level of ambition, where despite the sort of praise for 256 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: off of the public health system, the vaccine rollout does 257 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: not seem to be going as well as it is 258 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: in the United States. Is this a turning point between 259 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: sort of the trajectories for what, uh, you're the American 260 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 1: politics and economics versus versus Europe. I must admit that 261 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 1: I am unabatied le eurocentric in the sense that nonetheless 262 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: European community with all its limitations. I told to some 263 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: of my leftist friends who shouted to shout at me, 264 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: I was sold, was beaten. But I told them, whatever 265 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: you can say critical about Western Europe, but can you 266 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: imagine now, I will be pathetic, bombastic any period in 267 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: the history of humanity where so many people lived such 268 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: a relatively reach welfare, safe and free life as they 269 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: did till recent crisis in Europe. But the tragedy is 270 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: that now and not because of some external reasons, Europe 271 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: is slowly falling apart. First, there is not enough unity 272 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: parts of Europe, especially banks to which I belong, which 273 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: made me say it that year in my own country. 274 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 1: In some circles I repeatedly used for this new populist 275 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: right ring exis of Europe. It is Poland, Hungary, Slovenia. 276 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 1: Use the term I love it. That this is the 277 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: true excess of it. This is ruining Europe from within. 278 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:30,120 Speaker 1: But it's not just blaming us. Europe itself is becoming 279 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 1: more and more keen operative. You remember three years ago 280 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: to when the crisis in Catalumbia. Europe was unable best 281 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: homogeneous politics to reactively with refugee crisis a couple of 282 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: years ago. It was the same. Now with vaccinations. It's 283 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: the same. And I find this very said because today 284 00:21:55,160 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: something that would resemble Europe a larger than nations state 285 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: community with all its hipocrisy, keating and so on. But nonetheless, 286 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: the values are the values with which should be universal 287 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: values today, like when Europe said no, everybody should get 288 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: vaccine proportionally, no state should be privileged, and so on 289 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: and so on and so on. But you know what 290 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 1: I don't worry about. In Europe and especially in the 291 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: United States, people say, oh my god, but this is crazy. 292 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: The moment of reckoning will come like one brillion, nine 293 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: hundred billions, who when we'll pay this No money is virtual, 294 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: you can manipulate. I don't believe in this protection. Then 295 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: a deal would come from whom I always state a 296 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: very simplified example, I hope you agree World worth two 297 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 1: My dog who's was doing this like crazy, unproductively spending 298 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: money and there was no sentiment of account. After the war, 299 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: the greatest period of welfare came back. So I don't 300 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: believe in this basic liberal in the market sense, conservative 301 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: liberal instinct that you cannot spend money just like that. 302 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: You can't. You must do it in an intelligence pretty goods, 303 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: but you can't remember world work. Do how much United 304 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: States were spending? You can't do it. I think we 305 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: shouldn't be afraid of this. I would if you ask 306 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: me much more worthy. It is some idealist but noeltheless 307 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: about the possible collective, ideological and psychological impact of the 308 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 1: COVID christis race of violence, disintegration of the social community, 309 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: you know in the United States. On the one hand, 310 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 1: you can say, and let's be frank, I'm afraid it's 311 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: true that attacks from all bad things. The pandemic. Did 312 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: you got to read of Trump because of the pandemic? 313 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: I doubt if he would lost the elections without the pandemic. 314 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: But at the same time, don't underestimate I hope Trump 315 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: people will slowly lose ground, But nonetheless, don't underestimate the 316 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: state of an ideological civil war you are in. And 317 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: this is now emerging all around. And I don't agree 318 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 1: with people who say some Republicans who were critical of Trump, 319 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: do you remember they say, but they should be excluded 320 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: we should find a larger unity. No, sorry, you cannot. 321 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: There are certain limits. For example, a propos Hitler in 322 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 1: nty one. You shouldn't say, oh, but maybe we are 323 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: too exclusive. Everybody makes mistake. No, there are points in 324 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: politics where the only way to nied it is true 325 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: an even more radical division. You said the lady, No, sorry, guys, 326 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: not with you and a dow leader dust this. Then 327 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: you built a new unity. I just doubt if Biden 328 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: will be able to do it. What about you know? 329 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: Like one of the questions that arose in the last 330 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: couple of years is whether there can be some sort 331 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: of like actual I guess I would say class based 332 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: politics of the U S or class based realignment, or 333 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: some sort of reinvigoration of the US labor movement in 334 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:39,360 Speaker 1: some way or another. Is that plausible in some sense? Yes, 335 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 1: it's necessary, And that's what Berney Sanders. Although his success 336 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: was limited deep at some level, he was very wise. Here, 337 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: you know, I really good relas ago a speech by 338 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: him where he wore a Democratic party against these just 339 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: focusing undecided me the classes. You know, we shouldn't go 340 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: too much that. No, when he said how true targets 341 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 1: should be those who are white, and not only white 342 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: people who would have otherwise voted for Trump. Don't focus 343 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: too much, although don't neglect then on traditional matches and 344 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: probably matches idea of a working class. You know, you know, 345 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: it would be very interesting too to analyze the model, 346 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: the image which determined our reception of what real working 347 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: class is. At some point it was still workers or 348 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: miners or whatever. Today I claimed, it's crucial to think 349 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: in broader terms. If the pandemic make something clear, it 350 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: is that not only the role of precarious workers, not 351 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 1: only the role of those who work in the service 352 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: like workers and soon and so on, but also new 353 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: forms of colonization. It's no longer the classical exploit exploitation. 354 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: For example, like a friend in Ecuador who told me, 355 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,479 Speaker 1: don't talk only about working class. You have many native 356 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 1: communities in Ecuador who are not employed by western beach companies. 357 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 1: They are not formally exploited that like I'm a capitalist, 358 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: classical formula, I pay you away to what I keep 359 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: the extra profit. No, they are in some sense ecological proletarians. 360 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: The way international companies also their own equatorians are ruining 361 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,719 Speaker 1: in the plenishing the country of its natural resources. They 362 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: are ruining the environment. They are exploited in this sense. 363 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: They are also complain. You must remember in Canada that 364 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: with frecking oil and so Native Americans communal life was ruined. 365 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: So we sa these We have the whole problem of 366 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: unpaid labor. All this should be brought together. Why I 367 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: hope you will agree of this. This is what I 368 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: always find. I've written about it a lot, what I 369 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: always found crucial. Some Italian left this your editions trying 370 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: to conceptualize this. You know, Marxist classical scheme of development 371 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: was from rent to profit. In early capitalism, you were 372 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: weaving at your end. The capitalists give you the rule 373 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: and just took the rent. You are not formally employed paid, 374 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: But isn't it now with this new mostly digital big 375 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: companies Microsoft, Amazon, How did they get as rich as 376 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: they are? First? The people employed by being grades are 377 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: probably as far as I not so not so badly paid. 378 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: You cannot say they are exploited or what I'm think. 379 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: It's what I call in marchis terms, a new period 380 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: of the privatization of commons. Now that we talk on 381 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: the way, we have to use as our comments the 382 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: common space within which communicate. We have to use Microsoft 383 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: mostly now. If you want to buy a book, you 384 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: have to rely on Amazon. If you want to have 385 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: personal chet communications, Facebook and so on and so on. 386 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: So this guy, I think, get the rent from controlling 387 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: our comments. This is something new. You cannot cover it 388 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: with the traditional form of exploitation. Things have to be 389 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: a rittle. It's not simply some lefty stream. Let's return 390 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: to old trade union class politics. I will give you 391 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: probably the not typical but nonetheless important example from my 392 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: own as your beloved ex President Trumpet have said, shitch 393 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: hold of a country, Slovenia. You know that here when 394 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: the strike I'm mostly skeptical. Why because, if I may 395 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: use this old lendin Is term, those who can afford 396 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: to strike in Slovenia today are mostly what Lendin called 397 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: workers aristocracy, privileged workers mostly in state administration and state 398 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: apparatus institutions. Doctors, policemen, grudges up to appoint teachers universities. 399 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: They bickmail us like doctors say we don't want to 400 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: strike and if you don't raise our salaries whatever. It's 401 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: the same with policemen with grudgis and so on. You 402 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: see my point. To be able to go on strike 403 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: today means an incredibly pretty leached position in privately owned factors, 404 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: and nobody dares to go to strike because they mostly 405 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: tell you how, guys, I lose the factory, I moved 406 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: to to China. You know, so again thinks served to 407 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: be resought. I don't believe in this return to the 408 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: old nostalgic notion of working. Plus, I wanna go back 409 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: to something you said, um very early on, and I 410 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: thought it was interesting, so I didn't want to forget it. 411 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: You talked about the implications of algorithms, and this idea 412 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: is like, Okay, if you can have an algorithm and 413 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: many people work on them, you could beat the market. 414 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: And I know that, like, and you know that people 415 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: talk about this and older, older sort of communist society 416 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: is like, well, why can't we just have And you 417 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: mentioned it a computer or an algorithm established the superior 418 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: division of resources, the sort of ultimate, the ultimate distribution. 419 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: And I'm curious, like where you see that going? And 420 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: do you think that that does open the door for 421 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: more state level or corporate level superior distribution of resources. No, 422 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: it doesn't. I think it would mean Unfortunately, I don't 423 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: like this term. It's too pathetic for me, alienation. But 424 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: nonetheless the situation would get out of control because okay, 425 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: you can say society controls it rationality, but always thinking 426 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: realistic term, what does it mean society control list some 427 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: state organism, which interests are behind it, and so on. 428 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: I don't believe in me. Also, let me conclude in 429 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: a slightly more or less this way. You know who 430 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: was a very interesting guy an early lestis from the 431 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: period of French Revolution, an englishman quote I think Earl 432 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: or Lord of Lauderdale. He was an English nobleman, but 433 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: went to France, joined the Jacobins, you know, and he 434 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,959 Speaker 1: gave a wonderful example against this logic which is behind 435 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: algorithms controlling the logic of universal commodification. You can go 436 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: in this direction to the end. Like I remember already 437 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: twenties thirty years ago, some feminists claimed that women doing 438 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: the homework and so on, it's simply the unpaid labor, 439 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: so let's treat it as a source of value. Women 440 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: should get a certain salary for doing this. The idea 441 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: was even absolute communification of nature itself, like there was 442 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: an absurd proposal to measure all the fresh what us 443 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: in a state and then put a price on it, 444 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 1: you know, But it's Lauderdale demonstrates in this chance you 445 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: get false wealth emotions. He gives a wonderful example at 446 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: that time. But example is today for actual than ever 447 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 1: emerging a small town where they have nice strings, nice river, 448 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 1: enough water, nobody worries about water. Water is like it's there. 449 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: Then imagine he imagines a factory with uh, that's some 450 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: technical chemical staff for you to the river. So what 451 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: happens is that some people introduce some machines to clean 452 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: the water and are selling water. Now from the standpoint 453 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: of value, if you measure wealth by value, although for 454 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: the majority of people things got poor. They have to 455 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 1: pay for water. But free water before didn't count as 456 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 1: value because it didn't exist as a market entity. So 457 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: now formally society is much richard because you know, more 458 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,399 Speaker 1: capital terms around, more things around the market. And it's 459 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,919 Speaker 1: the same today we maybe even with air it will 460 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: become the same. In China, they're already on the edge 461 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 1: of it, you know, they saidest thing I learned now 462 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: to three days ago they had again a terrible sand storm. 463 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: The air was yellow in Beijin, you know, which is 464 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:41,279 Speaker 1: now the new driving local for poor people. Eurism there 465 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: one day trips and the only thing they promise you 466 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 1: we take you out of Beisin to a place where 467 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: you will be able to see the blue sky often. 468 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: So what I'm saying is that how much of our 469 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 1: wealth is this type of fake wealth, wealth which doesn't 470 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: make our lives rich. So I don't think the solution 471 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: is to modify everything in a more just rate. Women's 472 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: labor should be commodified, they should be paid for nature 473 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: and someone. No. I think that we should aim as 474 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: much as possible towards freely available things, not freely in 475 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: the sense they cost lating. They cost a lot, but 476 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: it can be done. If there is a lesson from 477 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 1: the pandemic is that I don't care if you also 478 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: use privac companies doctors, but somehow healthcare should be universal, 479 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: should be internationally cooperated and automatically available to all, or vaccine. 480 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: I suppark here those who claim okay, let the state. 481 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: The big companies like Size and Shone make billions, but 482 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: basically the formulas itself, the formula should be nationalized rendered three. 483 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: I don't think this will ruin capitalism. This will not 484 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: introduced some kind of communist there or but you know 485 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: we should. The lesson today from this crisis, global warning 486 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: and the warm and pandemic is that there are that. 487 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 1: It's not as people will only say, forget about your 488 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 1: pride but interest, don't be an egotist, think about the 489 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 1: common good. But today isn't it more and more to 490 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,320 Speaker 1: hear that as a good egotists you should think about 491 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 1: common good if you get about you about your own family. 492 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: That's why I was told there unfortunately a minority that. 493 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 1: For example, when before the governor of California, she convinced 494 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: many rich people that if you put the more into 495 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: police protection, protection, environment, men, schooling, you're even if you 496 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 1: are leach, your life will be better. You will be 497 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,320 Speaker 1: able to stroll around threely, your children playing without you 498 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:15,799 Speaker 1: will not be obliged to leave in guaranting exclusive societies 499 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: and shoon and savant. So for me, I never liked 500 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 1: moralist approach. No, we should refer to the utmost dirty 501 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 1: egotist moment aspects of people. It's in our egotist interest 502 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 1: to approach these problems collective. So final question and they 503 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: will go, I just want to drill down on that 504 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: one last thing. So it is a phenomenon. If you like, 505 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 1: listen to any business leader these days, especially with a 506 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 1: big company, they all certainly want to talk about something bigger. 507 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 1: They want to talk about the environment or education. Why 508 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: are we in this age where this is the preferred 509 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 1: mode of conversation, the preferred mode of expressing themselves. I 510 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: think I will provide you an extremely simple answer. That 511 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: we are dealing here with what I've written often about this, 512 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:19,320 Speaker 1: with what in psycho analysis is called fetishists denial. We 513 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:25,399 Speaker 1: know this, but we don't really believe it. For example, ecology, Yeah, 514 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: we all know it, global warming and so on. But 515 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:35,720 Speaker 1: did you notice how people media reportant It's always either 516 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: a little bit in future, if we don't do something 517 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: now intent twenty years it will happen, or it's another 518 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: place on north and south goal and so it's not 519 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 1: yet here in it's to an incredible level. We rationally 520 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 1: know it, but we don't believe it. That's why pandemic. 521 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: I will say something horrible. I like it because it's 522 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: just really chattened. You cannot say if we do nothing, pandemic, 523 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: no pandemic did cheat us. You know here I'm a pessimist, optimist, specimist, 524 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 1: optimists because pandemic may awaken us, a little bit pessimist 525 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: because obviously we will need much more things like pandemic 526 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 1: to really awaken us. And I think I wouldn't worry 527 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 1: that this will not come if you ask me. Look, 528 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: nobody knows what is happening. Just to conclude, did you 529 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: notice the strange temporality of the pandemic in the spring, 530 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: even your big fauci use, the favorite temporary limit was 531 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,840 Speaker 1: two weeks. You remember in March a year and it was, 532 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,800 Speaker 1: let's it will be back for two weeks, then it 533 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: will be getting better a little bit later in summer 534 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,360 Speaker 1: the preferred period of two months. For two months, it 535 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 1: will be tough, then better. In the fall it was 536 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 1: half a year now foud she said in two thousand 537 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 1: twenty two, masks will still be used, and so on 538 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:13,280 Speaker 1: and so on. What is so horrible is this disorientation. 539 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:18,800 Speaker 1: But maybe this will awaken us a little bit. I 540 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 1: hope that we are in a crisis. You know, people 541 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,360 Speaker 1: often talk about you know who said this is the 542 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: wonderful formula? George Orwell in some of his pretty wells 543 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: were too. He said let's many let's this talk all 544 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,399 Speaker 1: the time about the need for social change, but it's 545 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 1: again of superstitious activity to make it sure that nothing 546 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: really changed. We are still at that level. Mostly On 547 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,880 Speaker 1: that note, Uh, thank you so much for our joining us. 548 00:41:51,200 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 1: I'm grateful to you. Thanks very much. Thank you well. 549 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 1: I wish I wish Tracy were here so that I 550 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: could bounce some ideas back and forth from her. But honestly, 551 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,800 Speaker 1: here solo, I don't have um, you know, no obvious 552 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,120 Speaker 1: some may points other than that. I will be thinking 553 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,439 Speaker 1: about that discussion for a while, though, I did think, 554 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: you know, going back to that first question, how's interesting 555 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 1: is I remember, you know, during the GameStop stuff, all 556 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 1: these people telling about how it is kind of class 557 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 1: warfare or something radical, and he really seemed to take 558 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,959 Speaker 1: that even further than most of them, really talking about 559 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,239 Speaker 1: how radical it was, the arbitrary nous of it, the 560 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:51,279 Speaker 1: radical nous of arbitrary market moves, the radicalism of capitalism. 561 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:56,320 Speaker 1: Very provocative discussion. Really enjoyed it. But beyond that, not 562 00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,080 Speaker 1: much else obvious to say. So with uh that, with 563 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,600 Speaker 1: all that, this has been another episode of the Odd 564 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 1: Loves podcast. I'm Joe wasn't thought. You can follow me 565 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,360 Speaker 1: on Twitter at The Stalwart. My normal co host, Tracy Alloway, 566 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 1: you should follow her at Tracy Alloway. Follow our producer 567 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,399 Speaker 1: Laura Carlson at Laura M. Carlson. Follow the Bloomberg head 568 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 1: of podcast, Francesca Levie at Francesca Today, and check out 569 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,320 Speaker 1: all of our podcasts at Bloomberg under the handle at podcasts. 570 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:26,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.