1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised, Welcome to 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: a very special episode of Noble Blood. I am so 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: thrilled to be talking today with Carla Kaplan, the historian, writer, professor, 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: author of the incredible new nonfiction book Troublemaker, The Fierce 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: Unruly Life of Jessica Mitford. If you are someone who, 7 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: like me, has been fascinated with the Midford Sisters, this 8 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: is absolutely going to be a book you're going to 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: want to read. I feel like I learned so much. 10 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: I had been circling, you know, information about the Midford 11 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: Sisters because they're just fascinating. And this book is just 12 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: so brilliantly comprehensively done, even though it focuses really on 13 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: Jessica or Decca Mitford. Thank you so much for joining me, Thank. 14 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 2: You so much for having me. What a pleasure to 15 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 2: be here today. 16 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: So just to start for audience members who maybe aren't 17 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: familiar with who the Midford Says are, who are they? 18 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: Why do so many people write and talk about them? 19 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 2: And why has it been going on for literally one 20 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: hundred years now? So it has been sometimes called Mitford Mania. 21 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 2: Jessica Mitford, the sister about whom I write, called it, 22 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 2: somewhat derisively, the Mitford industry. And there have been waves 23 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 2: of Midfordiana, and we are in one. So there is 24 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 2: my book. There is Peter Sussman's incredible book of Jessica 25 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 2: Mitford's letters. There is Mimi Ponds Do Admit, which is 26 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 2: a graphic group biography of all the sisters. There is 27 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 2: in Great Britain now a biography of their mother, just 28 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 2: appropriately simply called Love. There was just a play in 29 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 2: England which I unfortunately didn't get to see, called Party Girls. 30 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 2: And of course, as some of your listeners may very 31 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,559 Speaker 2: well know, there was the britt Box series called Outrageous Yes, 32 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: which was based on Mayor Lovel's group biography and covered 33 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 2: all the sisters. And if any of your listeners happened 34 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: to see Outrageous, they get a picture not only of 35 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 2: what beautiful, engaging, charming, brilliant, creative, often snarky, rebellious women 36 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 2: the six Sisters were, but they also get a sense 37 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: of a kind of split screen reality that these sisters 38 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:31,639 Speaker 2: were born into the British aristocracy, into a very eccentric 39 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 2: and a very isolated family, which in classic aristocratic tradition 40 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 2: was very land rich and somewhat cash poor, and the 41 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 2: parents were really old school. In fact, they were so 42 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: old school that Jessicamitt for the sister about whom I write, 43 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 2: called them Edwardians, you know, which is quite a bit 44 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 2: earlier than they were. But they were very old school 45 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 2: when it came to genders. They did not believe in 46 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 2: any education. For these six amazing young women who were 47 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 2: brilliant and creative and full of energy and full of ambition, 48 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 2: and denied formal education really of any kind. So what 49 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 2: did they do? So these six beautiful girls essentially reach 50 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 2: up into the air and they pull imaginary futures out 51 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 2: of thin air. And part of why I think we're 52 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: so fascinated with them is almost all of them achieve 53 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: exactly the imaginary future they pulled down from nowhere. So 54 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 2: we have Nancy, who wanted to be a great writer 55 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 2: became a famous novelist. Pamela, who lived most quietly of 56 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 2: them all, the country woman known as women who stayed 57 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 2: in the country and stayed out of the press, left 58 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 2: a very wealthy marriage for a German woman that could 59 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 2: have been part of why she stayed out of the press. 60 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: Then we have the notorious. 61 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: Diana, the beauty of the family. 62 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: Although they're all beautiful, I mean, every one of them 63 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 2: is sort of drive your car into the curb and 64 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 2: gape at them beautiful, you know. But Diana was extraordinary, 65 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 2: and she looked like a statue and she actually was 66 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 2: that way all her life. Just stunningly beautiful and one 67 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 2: of the most brilliant of them all, and one of 68 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 2: the two who made some of the absolute worst choices. 69 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 2: So Mary's very very young. Mary's Brian guinnis heir to 70 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 2: the Guinness fortune, leaves him for a man named Oswald Mosley, 71 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 2: head of the British Fascist Party. When she leaves Guinness 72 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 2: for Mosley, Mosley is married, he is carrying on an 73 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 2: affair with two of his wife's sisters. He's really something else, 74 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 2: and it's an incredibly scandalous thing for a young woman 75 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 2: of the aristocracy with two children to do. But she 76 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,799 Speaker 2: lives all her life with Oswald Mosley as a fascist, 77 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: never apologizes for her fascism, completely unrepentant. Diana goes to 78 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 2: her grave blaming the Holocaust on the Jews. And then 79 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 2: let's see, there is Unity, Decca's very, very favorite sister, 80 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: who went even further than Diana. So Unity falls from 81 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 2: a distance. She's completely enamored of Adolf Hitler. She goes 82 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 2: to Germany, she stalks him for months until he finally 83 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 2: notices her. Now she's pretty hard not to notice. She's 84 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 2: six feet tall, she's gorgeous, and she's staring at him NonStop. 85 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: And I mean she's also a member of the aristocracy. 86 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: Their father is a baron. I imagine that gave them some 87 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: access exactly. 88 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 2: Well. It also made her very interesting to Hitler because 89 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 2: in his mind he's thinking, Okay, she's the daughter of 90 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 2: a baron. I'm going to get some inside information, you know. 91 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 2: Fortunately for England, Unity didn't have much in gie information. 92 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 2: What she did have was total dedication to Hitler. And 93 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 2: when Germany and England declared war, she went into a park, 94 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 2: took a tiny pistol out of her handbag, put it 95 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 2: up to her temple, and pulled the trigger. And she 96 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 2: didn't die. The bullet lodged in the back of her 97 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 2: brain and at the back of her skull, and she 98 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 2: lived for many years with diminished capacities. The youngest sister 99 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 2: became the Duchess of Devonshire, the Chatelaine of Chatsworth Estate. 100 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 2: If anybody listening is going to England, do not miss 101 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 2: the chance to see the hundred plus rooms at Chatsworth. 102 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 2: It's an extraordinary place in one of the great, great 103 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 2: old aristocratic noble houses of England. And that's Debo's life. 104 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 2: So here comes Jessica Mitford, my subject, who doesn't share 105 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 2: any of her sister's politics. All her sisters leaned to 106 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 2: the right. She leans as far to the left as 107 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 2: she can get, and she doesn't really share their values 108 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 2: or their protocols like them. She is beautiful, she's quite gorgeous, 109 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 2: like them. She could have been a society beauty and 110 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: spent her life in that way, but she wasn't interested, 111 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 2: and so she ran away from home at nineteen with 112 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 2: her second cousin, with whom she quickly fell in love 113 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: and got married. They fought in the Spanish Civil War. 114 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 2: They made their way to the United States. He died 115 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 2: in the war Second World War. She became an activist 116 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 2: and then a famous, famous American muckraking writer who proved 117 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: that she could carry all the wordplay of her childhood 118 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,679 Speaker 2: right into muckraking so she takes a form of writing, 119 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 2: of journalism. It's almost dead when she touches it. Nobody's 120 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 2: doing muckraking in the nineteen fifties, and she takes it. 121 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: She fills it full of the Midford tease, the Midford humor, 122 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden it's a brand new form. 123 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: And she's a blockbuster success in nineteen sixty three and 124 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 2: has a kind of third life as a writer. So 125 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 2: she has life as an aristocrat, she has a life 126 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 2: as an American communist and a civil rights activist, and 127 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 2: then she has a life as a famous writer. And 128 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 2: if you were putting this in a novel, your editor 129 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 2: would say it's too much. Now. 130 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: What I find so fascinating about Decca Midford, and I 131 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: think listeners might find interesting, is the thought of this 132 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: beautiful young aristocrat becoming a communist. But she didn't really 133 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: dismiss or make excuses for her childhood or her personality. 134 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: She sort of used her privilege for the benefit of 135 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 1: her causes. Can you speak to that sort of interesting contradiction. 136 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 2: I think it's a great question, and it's one of 137 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 2: the most interesting things about her. It's one of the 138 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 2: reasons actually, I think She's so useful today because here 139 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 2: is someone who, on the face of it, goes about 140 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 2: as far from her background and her family of origin 141 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 2: as you could go. She goes from a our house 142 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 2: in the Cotswolds to a middle class home in Oakland, California. 143 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 2: It's pretty hard to go much further than that. And 144 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 2: on the face of it, it looks like she leaves 145 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 2: everything behind. She certainly leaves behind her rank and her 146 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 2: privilege and all of the comforts of the aristocracy. She 147 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: pays a very high price for the trajectory she chose. 148 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 2: But as you say, one of the things that makes 149 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 2: her so interesting is even though she throws it all away. 150 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 2: She says, I don't want any titles, I don't want 151 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 2: that money, I don't want that land, I don't want 152 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 2: those aristocratic protocols. I'm setting all of that aside. She 153 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 2: takes aristocratic mannerisms and certain aristocratic privileges of risk taking, 154 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 2: and she takes them right into her work as an 155 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 2: American communist and write into her work as a muckbreaker. 156 00:09:55,640 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 2: So she is the aristocratic communist. It's almost a addiction 157 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 2: in terms, and she knows it. And she knows that 158 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 2: by being so many different things at once. She becomes 159 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 2: even more noticeable than she would have been otherwise. So, 160 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 2: as you say, she never attempts to hide that she 161 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,719 Speaker 2: is of a very different background than the people she's organizing. 162 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 2: In fact, one of the things I discovered in my 163 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 2: research over the ten long years it took me to 164 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 2: write this book was that every year that she was 165 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 2: an American working as an activist, working as a writer, 166 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: being such an American, that English uppercrest accent it got 167 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 2: deeper every year. Fascinating right where most people work to 168 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 2: lose it. She didn't. She increased it and she used it. 169 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 2: So here she is this former British aristocrat. She's organizing 170 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: in Black Oakland, California. She's working on labor issues, she's 171 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 2: working on housing issues, and she's very much dedicated to 172 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 2: working on police brutality issues. So she's interviewing Black Oaklanders 173 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 2: who've been beat up by the Oakland police, and she 174 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 2: comes into their homes with her English black handbag, with 175 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 2: her a line skirt, with the pumps, you know, with 176 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 2: the whole thing right and the accent, and they're not 177 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 2: put off for the most part, they're actually quite taken 178 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: to her because what she understands, and it really is 179 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 2: useful today, I think is that authenticity works. That if 180 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: you're not selling a story, if you just are who 181 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 2: you are, people will accept your differences, people will accept 182 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 2: And she understood that in a really profound way. But 183 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 2: she also enjoyed tweaking everybody around her. She never lost 184 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: the Miss Richford tease. So these girls were notorious teases, 185 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 2: all six of them. Decca never gave that up. So 186 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 2: she would tease her comrades and the Communist Party. She 187 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 2: would tease the very people she was organizing. She would 188 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 2: tease her guests at fundraisers, and part of her tease 189 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 2: was being a British aristocrat in a room full of comies. 190 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 2: And she knew right, She knew that that was a funny, 191 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 2: odd thing, and she loved to play it up. It 192 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 2: was part of who she was. She couldn't resist a joke. 193 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 2: If there was a joke to be had, including at 194 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 2: her own expense, she always made the joke. 195 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: One thing that I also love about Decca, and that 196 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: I found so striking in your book is just the 197 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: visual knowing that if we zoom back to her childhood, 198 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 1: she was sharing a bedroom with unity, the sister who 199 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: then grew up to be the most fascist. What was 200 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: their relationship like when they were growing up? 201 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 2: Unity was her favorite sister by far, and as far 202 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 2: as we can tell, Unity never walked away from adare 203 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 2: never walked away from a challenge. I think of all 204 00:12:55,320 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 2: the six as bold and as brave as Deco was, 205 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 2: and she was incredibly brave. Unity may have been even bolder. 206 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 2: She didn't get to live out her life, so we 207 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 2: don't know what would have happened to her, but she 208 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 2: took everything to extreme. Unity was the one who everybody 209 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 2: had an idea, and Unity was always the first to 210 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:21,319 Speaker 2: actualize it. Unity was apparently a complete card, a total crackup, 211 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 2: very very rebellious like Decca, absolutely incapable of bending the 212 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 2: knee to anybody or anything. And they were incredibly close 213 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 2: in childhood, so that when Unity did what she did, 214 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 2: when she not just allied herself or aligned herself with Hitler, 215 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 2: but became his intimate and was totally devoted to him, 216 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 2: this was heartbreaking for Decca. This was somebody she loved deeply. 217 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 2: And when Unity came back from Germany through Switzerland with 218 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 2: a bullet lodged in her brain, with the capacities sort 219 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 2: of an eight year old child, but sometimes of a 220 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 2: two year old child. She had terrible temper, tan terms, 221 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 2: She didn't always know where she was. Sometimes she was herself. 222 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 2: Sometimes she drove a car, so they actually let her drive, 223 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 2: which is kind of amazing to think about. We wouldn't 224 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 2: do that today. But Decca kept in touch with her, 225 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 2: so unlike her sister Diana, who Decca completely renounced and 226 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 2: blamed for her first husband's death, she kept in touch 227 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: with Unity. In fact, they wrote each other very loving letters, 228 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 2: and I think part of what she did was keep 229 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:37,119 Speaker 2: Unity alive. By remaining a prankster. Decca kind of remained 230 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 2: loyal to the games she and her sister had played 231 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 2: with one another. Now she took them into a different world. 232 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 2: She took them out of the nursery and into places 233 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 2: like the East Bay Communist Party, not where you expect 234 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: to find them, but some of her pranks, like the 235 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 2: kinds of fundraising parties she would have where you paid 236 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 2: a dollar to get in, but then fifty cents for 237 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 2: your drink, but then twenty five cents to get rid 238 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 2: of your empty glass, and going to the bathroom you 239 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 2: had to pay another ten cents for toilet paper, and 240 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 2: another five cents to come out of the bathroom, and 241 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 2: another fifty cents if you wanted to leave the party. 242 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 2: So that kind of pranking, that is something kind of 243 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 2: thing she and Unity would do. And I think she 244 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 2: kept her sister alive in her own mind and in 245 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 2: her heart by keeping alive a certain playfulness and insisting 246 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 2: on it. They couldn't have been closer and Unity even 247 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 2: when she was most brain damaged. The person she wanted 248 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 2: to talk to most was not Hitler, although she did 249 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 2: phone him. They did have phone conversations after the attempted suicide. 250 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 2: There's not a record of them that anybody knows about. 251 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 2: There's a lot of fake records of them, I'm sure. 252 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 2: But the person she wanted most was her sister Decca. 253 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 2: So you know here she was a devoted Nazi. Decca 254 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 2: was a devoted communist and an anti fascist, and couldn't 255 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 2: have been a strong her anti Nazi. But they longed 256 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 2: for one another and that longing never abated. And even 257 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 2: after Unity died, Decca was very tender about her memory. 258 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: That's very heartbreaking in a way. You know, she sort 259 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: of lost her sister three times almost. 260 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 2: Exactly well, in fact, she lost them all. I mean, 261 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 2: she kept trying to connect to them, not by pretending 262 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 2: to be other than whom she was. She didn't try 263 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 2: to connect to them by imitating them or pretending that 264 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 2: she was still pursuing the life they were pursuing. But 265 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 2: she went back to England every year, at great expense 266 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 2: and great trouble. She wrote them constantly. She tried to 267 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 2: keep them apprized of her life, and they never accepted her. 268 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 2: They pretended to sometimes, sometimes they didn't pretend to it all. 269 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 2: Sometimes they're quite mean to her directly. They were almost 270 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 2: always mean about her behind her back, and she kept 271 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 2: trying to still have them as her sisters. And for me, 272 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 2: that piece of the story was actually the most heartbreaking, 273 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 2: the way in which she kept trying to connect to 274 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 2: her sisters, in the way in which intimate, playful, brilliant, 275 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 2: word loving, story loving sisterhood marked the rest of her life. 276 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: Well, fast forwarding a bit after Decca came to America, 277 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit about the fact 278 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 1: that she was summoned to testify in front of the 279 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: House on American Activities Committee, which is a pretty exciting 280 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,360 Speaker 1: incident in her life. Can you talk a little bit 281 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: about why she was called and then what she did 282 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: or rather didn't do when she was there? 283 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 2: Well put, it was definitely a didn't do. So. Decca 284 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 2: and her husband, Robert Truhaft, Jewish American progressive left wing lawyer, 285 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 2: were both members of the Communist Party. They were deeply 286 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 2: involved in the East Bay Communist Party. I don't think Decca, 287 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 2: by the way, would have survived in the New or 288 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: Communist Party or Chicago or Minnesota. The East Bake Communist 289 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 2: Party was not as rule bound as others, and it 290 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 2: was more playful, and there was more creativity, and it 291 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 2: was much less tied to central leadership or the Soviet Union. 292 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 2: So she was able to flourish there. And in the 293 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 2: East Bake Communist Party she discovered some of her skills. 294 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 2: She discovered there as well as in the Office of 295 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 2: Price Administration for the US government. What an incredible investigator 296 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 2: she was. She was indefatigable. You sent Jessica Midford on 297 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,360 Speaker 2: a mission, and she is going to get the answers 298 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,719 Speaker 2: by hook or crook, or any means necessary. If she 299 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 2: has to hide in bathrooms, if she has to steal files, 300 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 2: if she has to pretend to be somebody she's not. 301 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 2: She carries all of that, by the way, into her 302 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 2: muck raking. It's part of why she succeeds as such 303 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 2: a great muck raker. But in the Communist Party she 304 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 2: discovers that she's a great investigator, that she has journalistic skill, 305 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 2: and that she's a really, really good organizer. And she 306 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 2: is mooted over and over and over again in the 307 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 2: Communist Party. Now, for someone like her who never had 308 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 2: a responsible position and no education, those promotions are enormously meaningful, 309 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 2: These positions of great responsibility. So she is the acting 310 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 2: executive Secretary of the East Bay Communist Party. This is 311 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 2: a highly important job. She has a lot of responsibility, 312 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 2: and it is her job to have all the files 313 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 2: and records of the local organization. So of course she 314 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 2: is called before the House on American Activities Committee. She 315 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 2: expects to be She's fully prepared for it. All of 316 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 2: their friends have been called up, some of their friends 317 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 2: have flown the country. They're living in Mexico, they're living 318 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 2: in South America. Some of their friends unfortunately killed themselves. 319 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 2: This is a piece of the Red Scare that sometimes 320 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 2: people forget that the terror of having their lives ruined 321 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 2: and losing their jobs and their families and being called 322 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 2: up drove people to suicide. So she and Bob were ready. 323 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 2: She gets called up and most of what they want 324 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 2: her to do is name names. They want her as 325 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 2: the secretary of the party. She knows everything to come 326 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 2: in with all her files and name names. Now they 327 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 2: don't know Jessica Midford. There is just no way that 328 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 2: Jessica Mitford is going to name a single name. This 329 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 2: is never going to happen. So she shows up at 330 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 2: the huec hearing with no files at all, not a 331 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:27,959 Speaker 2: file to be seen. She'd been subpoened. And she is 332 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 2: in her absolute best outfit and that entails her best dress, 333 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 2: bought with her sister Nancy, probably in Paris because Nancy 334 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 2: had the taste. And she's her finest hat, and her 335 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 2: finest hat is from her mother in law, Aaron Ka Trueheft, 336 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 2: who is a milliner, a very famous, very very high 337 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 2: society milliner in New York City. This is Bob's mother. 338 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 2: So she's dressed to the nine. She's got her pearls on, 339 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 2: she's got her best handbag, I mean, the whole thing, 340 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 2: and she gets into the committee room and they're asking 341 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 2: her a million questions and she refuses to answer any 342 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 2: of them, I'm sure, and they're getting more and more 343 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 2: and more angry at her. And there's quite an audience 344 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 2: there to see all of this, because she's a well 345 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 2: known celebrity locally by the time. And they finally, infrustration, 346 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 2: ask her, well, are you a member of the East 347 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 2: Bay Tennis Club? And they meet ronically because the tennis 348 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 2: club is very right wing and they know that maybe 349 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 2: she'll say no to that. Well, she doesn't hear them correctly. 350 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 2: He thinks they've just asked her if she's a member 351 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 2: of the tenants club like your's association. So she refuses 352 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 2: to answer that too, So the whole room erupts in 353 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 2: hysterical laughter because she even refuses to answer that. Now 354 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 2: everybody's laughing at the committee chairman, and they're ridiculous questions. 355 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,400 Speaker 2: She has the whole room cracking up, and they're very 356 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 2: frustrated with her, and they throw her out of the 357 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 2: room and they forget to ask her for her files. 358 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 2: So she uves as quickly as she can. She knows 359 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 2: what just happened. She goes into four days of because 360 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 2: she knows that when they realize they haven't asked her 361 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 2: for the files, they're going to call her back in. 362 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 2: She sort of escaped the entire HUAC thing and going 363 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 2: to jail, she was prepared. She had no files, she 364 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 2: was supered for the files. She could have been jailed 365 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 2: for up to twenty five years. She goes to that 366 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 2: curing room expecting that she's going to spend the next 367 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 2: few years in prison. I mean, she's ready to do that, 368 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 2: but because she's so funny, she escapes it. So her 369 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 2: humor all her life got her into trouble and occasionally 370 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 2: her humor got her out of trouble. 371 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 1: And I think there's also a remarkable power that she 372 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 1: had in being able to dress herself that way. I 373 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: think it was very disarming to people. It was using 374 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: her privilege to protect herself and her organization. 375 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 2: Yes, she made sure that she looked like an aristocrat 376 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 2: from the Cotswolds, not a comedy from Oakland. She was 377 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 2: very warm when she won wanted to be. She brought 378 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 2: people right in when she wanted to be. But she 379 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 2: also knew how to make people uncomfortable and put them 380 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 2: on edge and make them not sure of themselves, and 381 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 2: she used that very effectively. 382 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: There was also another incident I found fascinating which involves 383 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: a riot led by the KKK and a Martin Luther 384 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: King rally. Would you mind explaining how Decka Mitford found 385 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: herself in that situation. 386 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 2: Jessica Mitford was very close to Virginia and Clifford Drr. 387 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 2: And Virginia and Clifford Dur came from the South, spent 388 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,719 Speaker 2: years and years and years in the Washington, DC area, 389 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 2: and they were amazing civil rights workers. In fact, Virginia 390 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 2: Der was the person who was really single handedly finally 391 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 2: responsible for getting rid of the poll tax, which kept 392 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 2: poor and people of color from voting. I don't know 393 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 2: if you've been following this, but we're looking at new 394 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 2: versions of the poll tax coming back around in the 395 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 2: attacks on voting rights right now. So Virginia Wolf must 396 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 2: be absolutely rolling in her grave in disbelief because she 397 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 2: finally got rid of the pull tax, and here it 398 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 2: is coming again. And Jessica Mitford lived with the Durs 399 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 2: for a couple of years and would go back south 400 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 2: to visit them. After she moved off to Oakland, she 401 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 2: would go often to visit and she was visiting in Montgomery, Alabama, 402 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 2: during the period of the incredible famous bus boycotts and 403 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 2: during the period of the Freedom Rides. So this is 404 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 2: the Snick Freedom Rides which follow the bus boycotts, and 405 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 2: one of the bloodiest incidents in the history of the 406 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 2: Freedom Rides and of the Snick Freedom Riders, who were 407 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 2: trying to make a case for integration by riding the 408 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 2: buses together throughout the South, black and white young people, 409 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 2: mostly who had left college to do this work in 410 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 2: the South. The Freedom Riders were coming into Montgomery, Alabama, 411 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 2: and by the KKK and other racist groups, the buses 412 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 2: were attacked. This was one of the periods where John 413 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 2: Lewis was almost killed. This is one of the periods 414 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 2: where famously John Lewis was beaten over the head to 415 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 2: unconsciousness and others. There was actually a white woman activist 416 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 2: who was killed in Montgomery at this demonstration. And there 417 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 2: was a just a horrible race riot, a horrible not 418 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 2: a race ride, but a white attack, a horrible mom 419 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 2: attack on black people, just a terrible racist, not race riot, 420 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 2: but racist riot. And Jessicamick sort of threw herself into 421 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 2: the middle of it. She was right there she was 422 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 2: in it. And it was followed that evening by an 423 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 2: evening service and meeting at the church, and Martin Luther 424 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 2: King was there, and all of the Freedom Riders were there, 425 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 2: and it was a very important gathering to assess this 426 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 2: attack and this riot. And as the community of protesters 427 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 2: gathered in the church, a white mob assembled all around it. 428 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 2: And the white mob tried to kill everybody in the church. 429 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 2: They threw in pipe bombs, they threw in smoke bombs, 430 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 2: they threatened they were armed. They took a car and 431 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 2: they turned it upside down and they set it on 432 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 2: fire in an attempted church on fire. Turned out that 433 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 2: car was the car Jessica Mitford had been driving. And 434 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 2: over three hundred people was trapped in this church overnight, 435 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,880 Speaker 2: including Jessica Mitford and Martin Luther King. They kept calling 436 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 2: Bobby Kennedy and they kept saying, please, You've got to 437 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 2: send the National Guard. And it wasn't until dawn that 438 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 2: they were finally rescued by a cadre of National Guards 439 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 2: people who pushed the white mob the rioters away and 440 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 2: got them out, and Jessica Mitford wrote an essay about it. 441 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 2: It ended up never being published, it was not one 442 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 2: of her most successful Everybody always wanted her to be funny, 443 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 2: and it was not an evening she wanted to be 444 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 2: funny about. Wasn't much funny about that night. So she 445 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 2: had a hard time placing that essay. But like her 446 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 2: time in Spain, where she saw people volunteer from all 447 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: around the world and put their lives on the line 448 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 2: for democracy and to fight fascism, I think that night 449 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 2: you're talking about left an indelible mark on her. I 450 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 2: think what she looked at, the risk people were taking 451 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 2: just to be able to vote, just for the right 452 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,640 Speaker 2: to have their voices heard in this country. That left 453 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 2: her real mark on her, and it influenced the work 454 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 2: she later did. 455 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: Before I let you Go, there's one more, like you said, 456 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: three different lives she lived when she was a muckbreaking journalist. 457 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: Her most I would say, maybe her most famous and 458 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: influential story was an expose on the funeral industry. Would 459 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: you mind telling us a little bit how she got 460 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: into that topic and then what she discovered? 461 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 2: And you're absolutely right. The book was a blockbuster. It 462 00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 2: was the It was the top of the best seller 463 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 2: Life for nearly a year. It was called The American 464 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 2: Way of Death. She published it in nineteen sixty three. 465 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 2: It's never gone out of print. It's still taught in 466 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 2: university classrooms across the country. What's remarkable about it It's 467 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 2: an hysterically funny, laugh out loud book about death and 468 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 2: dying and funerals. So she manages to do two things. 469 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 2: She manages to expose the exploitation of the funeral industry. 470 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 2: It was preying on poor people who would lose all 471 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 2: their death benefits to fancy funerals they didn't need, but 472 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 2: which they were talked into. And at the same time 473 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 2: it managed to expose them by just mocking them using 474 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 2: the midfor tees. The book is sometimes quite gruesome. It 475 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 2: was co written with her husband, Robert Truhaft, and it 476 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 2: came to her through him. He was the lawyer for 477 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 2: the Bay Area Memorial Society, a co op designed to 478 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 2: help people do essentially diy funerals and escape all that exploitation. 479 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 2: And he would come home with the stories, and for 480 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 2: months she would dismiss them, until one day he came 481 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 2: home with a story she couldn't dismiss. He came home 482 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 2: with a story about a client, a grieving widow wanted 483 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 2: a cheaper coffin. She was being talked into a coffin 484 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 2: she could not afford, you know, one of these fancy 485 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 2: caskets with the silk and the gilded and the all 486 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 2: of the stuff. And she said, no, I want that 487 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 2: simple wooden one. And the undertaker said to this grieving 488 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 2: woman who had just lost her husband, well, lady, I 489 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 2: can give you that wooden one, but I'll have to 490 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 2: chop his feet off. And when Jessica mcford heard that story, 491 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 2: she said, that's it. We have to write a book 492 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 2: about these guys. We have to write a book about 493 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 2: what they're doing. And it was really her leaping to 494 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 2: the defense of grieving widows. And she wrote that book 495 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 2: with her husband, and it started her career as a muckraker, 496 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 2: and for the rest of her career she went after 497 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,239 Speaker 2: people who were exploiting and taking advantage of others, and 498 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 2: she did it often with humor. She was remarkably effective, 499 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 2: and of. 500 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: Course, her first husband had died, she could be very empathetic. 501 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 2: And she had lost two children, so something she almost 502 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 2: never talked about. It's hardly in her books at all, 503 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 2: but she had lost an infant daughter and then a 504 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 2: son who wasn't even a teenager yet. And she knew 505 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 2: a great deal about loss, and she knew a great 506 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 2: deal about what felt to her like both the dignity 507 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 2: of dying and the dignity of living. That you know, 508 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 2: she thought it shouldn't be something that people made a 509 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 2: profit out of. 510 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: Very well said, before I let you go, one last question, 511 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: what was her funeral like? 512 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 2: Well, she made a joke about her funeral. She always 513 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 2: used to joke about it. And the joke was, I 514 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 2: want the whole cortege, I want you know, six horsemen, 515 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 2: and I want the glass hearse, and I want the 516 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 2: whole thing. And it was a joke. Well after she died, 517 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 2: when she left very explicit instructions that she wanted the 518 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 2: cheapest cremation possible, her friends thought, oh, we can't resist 519 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 2: one last joke. We have to have one last piece 520 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 2: of fun with Decca. So they did a kind of 521 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 2: mock version of the fancy fancy funeral, including with a 522 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 2: New Orleans style band and you know, the glass hers, 523 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 2: just the whole thing. Unfortunately, some of the American press 524 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 2: didn't realize it was a joke, and so some of 525 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 2: the American press after her death said, well, we don't 526 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 2: really understand it. She was against fancy funerals, but then 527 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: she left instructions to have one. It was a joke, 528 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 2: but she did have a sort of mock version of 529 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 2: the fancy funeral. Two enormous memorials. She was a deeply 530 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 2: beloved figure and her death was very devastating people. But 531 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 2: she also had the deaths she chose. She refused a 532 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 2: lot of interventions. She wanted to be able to write 533 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 2: and think and joke and laugh and sing up until 534 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 2: the end. And she died with her friends all around 535 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 2: her bed singing her favorite songs. 536 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: That's beautiful. Carla Kaplan, author of Troublemaker, The Fierce Unruly 537 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: Life of Jessica Mitford, truly deca Mitford a character larger 538 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: than life. Thank you so much for joining me today. 539 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. 540 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: Noble Blood is a production of iHeart Radio and Grim 541 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Noble Blood is hosted by 542 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: me Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and research by Hannah Johnston, Hannahswick, 543 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: Courtney Sender, Amy Hit and Julia Milaney. The show is 544 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: edited and produced by Jesse Funk, with supervising producer rima 545 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: Il Kaali and executive producers Aaron Manke, Trevor Young, and 546 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 547 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 548 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 2: M