1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, Sophia Bush here, Welcome to Work in Progress, 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: where I talked to people who inspire me about how 3 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: they got to where they are and where they think 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: they're still going. Pria Parker is a master facilitator, strategic advisor, 5 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: and author of the Art of Gathering, How We Meet 6 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: and Why It Matters. Priya and I met on the 7 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: Together Tour years ago, and I just fell in love 8 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: with the person that she is and I'm so excited 9 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: to introduce her to all of you today. I was 10 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: so excited to talk to her on Work in Progress 11 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: about how her childhood helped her learn to navigate between 12 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 1: different groups, the importance of FaceTime, the biggest mistakes people 13 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: make when planning a gathering, and more. She is brilliant, 14 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: you guys, and I'm sure you're gonna learn so much 15 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 1: from her Hipria. I'm so happy here. I'm so happy 16 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: to be here. We just we started gathering and I 17 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: was like, wait, stop, stop, weregid record. I'll take good. 18 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: You just you have such a beautiful sensibility in the 19 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: way that you look at things and talk about things, 20 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: and you even just hit the nail on the head 21 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 1: about why podcasts are special in a way I've never 22 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: heard anybody say it. You said that this is one 23 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: of the few mediums in media practicing enoughness. I was 24 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: struck because I saw a tweet that announced that it 25 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 1: was the that the Pulitzer Prize Committee is expanding its 26 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: categories to include audio. And that's a big deal, right, 27 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: because it's basically saying that this is something that has mastery, 28 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: This is a this is a modality that we should 29 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: be paying attention to. This is a way of connecting 30 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: with citizens in a way that is considered to be 31 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: worthy and perfectable. And one of the reasons I think 32 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: podcasts are so beautiful and and and also are kind 33 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: of taking off is because in this day of an 34 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: age of distractions and um, you can kind of be 35 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: anywhere at any time or be where you are and 36 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: totally check out the idea that it's not visual. You 37 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:23,679 Speaker 1: don't have to watch a lot of things, you don't 38 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: have to look at a screen. It's just you and 39 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: the person in your ear. It's enough. I love that. 40 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: I love that. Gosh, Okay, I'm going to take everybody 41 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: back a minute. So you and I met. It was 42 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: the third year, which would have been last year. So 43 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: the fall of the third year of the Together Live Tour, 44 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: traveling around with me and you and Glenn and Doyle 45 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: and Happy wam Back and so many other just incredible women, 46 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: And you spoke about your first book, The Art of Gathering. 47 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: It's it's a subject that you've studied at m I T. 48 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: It's about human design. It's a subject on which you 49 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: gave a TED talk, which I'm obsessed with. So listeners, 50 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: you should definitely watch it, and it will be in 51 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: our stories for this episode. You can you can hit 52 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: the link and enjoy. Just to step back a little bit, 53 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: my background is in conflict resolution, so I'm a group 54 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: conflict resolution facilitator and I'm by racial, I'm by religious. 55 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: I grew up in a lot of different cities and countries, 56 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: and I was very frustrated again and again and again 57 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: by the gatherings that I went to, whether they're conferences 58 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,839 Speaker 1: or birthday and parties or meetings, in part because as 59 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: a facilitator, you're trained to understand group dynamics, how to 60 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: shift a situation, how to help people meaningfully connect quickly. 61 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: But going to gathering after gathering where people spent so 62 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: much time and focus on kind of the stuff, the 63 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: things like how to perfect the you know, the table 64 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: setting or make sure you have ramps the season and 65 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: your food or the lighting or the power point presentation. 66 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: And we've been told kind of for decades that if 67 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: you get the stuff right, everything else will kind of 68 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: take care of itself. And I knew as a conflict 69 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: resolution facilitator that that's just not true. That the way 70 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: you actually create meaningful connections between people as you focus 71 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: on the interaction and the meaning between people, not on 72 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: the stuff. And so I UM, I set out to 73 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: on this journey to look at how people in extreme 74 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: contexts create group experiences for others that are transformative, that 75 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: are meaningful. So I spend time with a god optional rabbi, 76 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: with a dominatrix, with a photographer that has seven minutes 77 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 1: with a head of state and has to figure out 78 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: how to get exactly the right shot. But the head 79 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: of state doesn't want to give, and all the bodyguards 80 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: in the room also don't want him to give, and 81 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: the photographer figures out how to switch the dynamic in 82 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: the room. And UM and a circus ll like choreographer, 83 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: a World Cup hockey coach who has to figure out 84 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: in a week, how to get twenty three players from 85 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: different countries to become one and ask them like when 86 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: it works, why does it work? And the art of 87 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: gathering is really an exploration to look at how do 88 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: you actually create meaningful gatherings anytime you gather in your 89 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: personal life with your friends, with your family, and your 90 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: workplace in the public square. And it's a belief that 91 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 1: anybody can do this. You don't need a fancy house, 92 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: you don't need a lot of education, you don't need 93 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: the right fish knives, but you need to pay attention 94 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: to what people actually need, what you need in front 95 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: of you, And how do you actually create meaning between 96 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: people in the simplest of ways. I love that so much, 97 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: so we I want to get into all of it, 98 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: the book, the research, the science, the dominatrix, the god option, 99 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: so any questions about all of them. I love it. 100 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: I love to learn about all of these sort of 101 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: specific arenas that people exist in. But you mentioned your childhood, 102 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: and I do always love to start with ball. Were 103 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 1: you like this as a kid? You know, were you 104 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: a conflict resolution expert because you grew up between two 105 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: households even in childhood. I am deeply conflict averse. And 106 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 1: when my parents divorced, I was shocked. Everybody was shocked. 107 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: How old were you? Um? They were I was nine 108 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: when they separated and probably eleven when they divorced. And 109 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: the reason I was shocked was because they never fought. 110 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: We were a household of unhealthy peace. And my mother, 111 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: who's Indian, came she's the she's the middle child of five. 112 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: And my father, whose white American, grew up in Waterloo, Iowa, 113 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: and for very different reasons and in very different cultural contexts, 114 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: they both basically were taught not to make a fuss 115 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: quote unquote, and they were They met at Iowa State. 116 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: They were both adventurers. My mother's an anthropologist and my 117 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: father's a hydrologist. And they for the first ten twelve 118 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: years of their lives, they they lived in fishing villages. 119 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: They would go in a vr van across Central America 120 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 1: and drive to Costa Rica and interview farmers. They lived 121 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: in Botswana, they lived in the Maldives. I was born 122 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: in Zimbabwe because the closest good hospital that would accept 123 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: a biracial couple at the time in a racial couple 124 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: was in in Zimbabwe. And and they eventually moved back 125 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: to the US and moved to Virginia, and then within 126 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: a year they separated, and within two years they divorced, 127 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: and within three years they had each remarried other people, 128 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: and I was their only child, and they had joint custody. 129 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: And every two weeks I would go back and forth 130 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: between these two households. And I say this in the 131 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: Ted talk, but it's still true. I my mother and 132 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: stepfather was this. I would leave this home that UM 133 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: was Indian and British Buddhist, agnostic, atheist, vegetarian. On Sundays 134 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: we would meditate and there'd be incense filled everywhere. UM 135 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: world banky, global internationalists, progressive Democrat. And I would travel 136 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: one point four miles this is in Vienna, Virginia, and 137 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: I would enter my father and stepmother's home. And it 138 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: was and still is a white evangelical Christian, conservative, Republican 139 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: two or three times a week church going meat, eating, 140 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: you know, dogs, dog household, Republican, conservative, climate skeptic family. 141 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: And they were both my families, and I was part 142 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: of both of them, but I was also apart from 143 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: both of them. And so my entire life growing up, 144 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: particularly between the age of kind of ten to nineteen 145 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 1: was an experiment in figuring out how to belong to 146 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: two families that were trying to figure out who they were. 147 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: And I would go back and forth between these two households, 148 00:08:54,640 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: and I remember I would um, I would pack two enormous, 149 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,839 Speaker 1: like humongous Duffel bags. There were so big they're almost 150 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: like body bags. And both parents, both sets of parents 151 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: and my step swiblings would be like, why don't you 152 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: just leave one set of clothes at one house and 153 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: one set of clothes at the other. And I felt like, no, 154 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: no, no no, no, I don't understand, like I have. I 155 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: want to have something that is consistent. I was like 156 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: a little turtle with like carrying my shell on my back, 157 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: going back and forth with these with these clothes because 158 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: I didn't want to have the I wanted something besides me. 159 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 1: I didn't have a sibling, so I wanted something besides 160 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: me to kind of like have a through line between 161 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: these two households. And I didn't realize that until years later. 162 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: But a huge part of my life has been trying 163 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: to figure out as a conflict revolution facilitator. Later on, 164 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: questions like how do we become who we are when 165 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: our relationships no longer serve us. How do we exit? 166 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: What of those relationships do we take with us? How 167 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: do we decide who we can become without betraying where 168 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: we come from? And how do we do that with 169 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: other people? And to me, every gathering is an opportunity 170 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: to explore those questions. We're always exploring them. They're just 171 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: usually implicit. And what I'm interested in is bringing making 172 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: the implus it a little bit more explicit and creating 173 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 1: context in which we're all kind of figuring out together, 174 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: like who are we? What do we believe in? What 175 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: do we share in common? And how are we different? 176 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: And how do we make meaning together even if we 177 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: don't believe the same thing? And what do you think? 178 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: I mean? It's just wow, yes to all of it. 179 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: And that image of you as a little girl with 180 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: her little turtle show just kills me. How do you 181 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: think moving between those spaces? How do you think you 182 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: learn to navigate between those two worlds? How did you 183 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: learn to as you say, you were a part of 184 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: both families yet apart from them. So I'll give an example, 185 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: And I think I think I'm an extreme version of 186 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: all of us. Right, we each walk into a space, 187 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: whether it's a religious space or an a religious space, 188 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: whether it's a place where people have strong beliefs about 189 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: food or couldn't care less, And all of the time, 190 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: implicitly are basically asking do I belong here? Do I 191 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: want to belong here? Am I a part of this? 192 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: Or am I apart from it? Right? And my childhood 193 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: was just a more extreme articulation of those questions. So 194 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: I remember I would be part of the church youth 195 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: group when I was at my father's house. And interestingly, 196 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,079 Speaker 1: even though the church youth group would continue meet every week, 197 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: I would only go when I was at my father's house, 198 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 1: so I would also actually be missing half the time. 199 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: And I at one of our youth group visits, we 200 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: went to a rally in Baltimore. I'll never forget it, 201 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: and it was like it was I think it's called 202 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: Light the Fire, and it was in this massive like 203 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: basketball stadium, and it was like it was like a rave, 204 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: but it was like a Christian rave, but full of 205 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: teenagers and like any kind of I would say, good gathering. 206 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: There's an emotional arc, but the what they were focusing 207 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: on were things like I mean, at one point, I 208 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: remember the crowds of young people were literally passing around 209 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: a coffin, and the preacher on the stage was saying like, 210 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: throw your sin into the coffin, throw your secular world 211 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: into the coffin. And I remember the coffin was approaching 212 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: me and I was like, what is that mean? What 213 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: is in this coffin? And I looked over and there 214 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: were Metallica CDs, you know, I mean, it didn't even 215 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,079 Speaker 1: necessarily make sense, but this these kind of rituals of belonging, 216 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,839 Speaker 1: of like what are my possessions, what are my earthly possessions? 217 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: What are the possessions I want to give away? And 218 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: then at one point in this rally, on stage, there 219 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: was this infomercial and I looked up and I'm I'm 220 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 1: half Indian and half white American. And I looked up 221 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: and on the infomercial there were these two Indian gods, 222 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: like these two little plastic or wooden Hindu deities. And 223 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: I was like, that's interesting. Why is that here? And 224 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, they were blowing them up and 225 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: I thought, oh, my god, that's my family, Like that's 226 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: my grandfather, that's my what are they doing? And then 227 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: right after that moment, they called for everybody to give 228 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 1: their life to Christ and walk on stage. And you know, 229 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: I don't know how you were raised or your listeners, 230 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: and there this this, this is ah. These are traditions 231 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: and rituals in different Christian communities around the country, and 232 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: they come in different manifestations. For me, in that moment 233 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: was all of the people I loved in my youth 234 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 1: group kind of got up and we're kind of following 235 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: the the spirit, if you will, but following at least 236 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: the emotional arc. You the script if you were following 237 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: it was to stand up and walk to stage. And 238 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: in that moment, I thought, and I remember I was shaking, 239 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: and I said, I love God, but I can't walk 240 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: up on that stage. This is not who I am, 241 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: and this is not what I believe. And in that moment, 242 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: this it was this radical act. And I can look 243 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: back then and see like, Okay, you know, I don't 244 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: think that's that's wrong, but it was this radical act 245 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: to stay seated, and everybody in my youth group felt 246 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: sorry for me. And there were moments where in any 247 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: community that's that's monolithic, that's trying to develop an identity 248 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: that in part is based on who they're not right 249 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: there blowing up the Indian gods. And part of that 250 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: is also and this is sociology, it's also then reafying 251 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: your own identity. Right, we are not that, we are this. 252 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: I could see in that moment that that line being 253 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: drawn was not a line I could be a part of. 254 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: And then in when I would be with my mother, 255 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: we would go to like landmark form conferences. We would 256 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: go to the Theosophical Society in in Chennai in in 257 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: Madras in India, where my grandparents lived, and believe that 258 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: all religions are equal, and the ways they would open 259 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: their rituals would be seven leaders of different faiths coming 260 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: and praying in different ways. And that's how we would open. 261 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: And so a big part of how I learned to 262 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: navigate was first seeing that there are many ways to 263 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: be in many ways to gather, and also to see 264 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: that well, I would say, at an earlier age, a 265 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: big part of it was just I was a chameleon 266 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: and whatever I was, wherever I was, I was trying 267 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: to figure out the codes and the language and the 268 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: belief systems. You know, when I was at my my 269 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: husband point out years later when I'm at my mother's 270 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: house and somebody sneezes, I say bless you. And then 271 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: when I'm at my father's house and somebody's sneezes, I 272 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: say God bless you, and I code switch. And it 273 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: wasn't until my twenties that I started really really asking 274 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: who am I, not only when I'm in a context 275 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: of these two polarizing families. But I think that's true 276 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: for many of us. Yeah, And I guess what strikes 277 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: me just as so odd is that human beings feel 278 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: the need to define who they are by either perpetuating 279 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: or showcasing harm to other humans. You know, identity is um. 280 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: I studied political and social thought in college and and 281 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: was really interested in identity and race and immigration. And 282 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: part of identity formulation is figuring out both who you are, 283 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: but by definition, also figuring out who you are not. 284 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: And um I was recently speaking with a um a 285 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: social psychologist who's an expert on authoritarianism. Her name is 286 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: Karen Stenner, and um she was She's written a number 287 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: of pieces on the rise of the kind of authoritarian 288 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: trait in population, so not authoritarian leaders, but she has 289 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: this thesis backed by by her research with Jonathan Hight. 290 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: That basically says that in any population, there's a small 291 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: percentage up to that of people who have kind of 292 00:16:55,840 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: an authority, are are predisposed to authoritarianism, and there are 293 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: certain conditions that can trigger that. Then wanting to you know, 294 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: that be be activated. And one of the things that 295 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: she said was so we asked her, so, in in 296 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: this moment of our political nightmare, how would you advise 297 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: the country to come back together? And she said, part 298 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: of the irony is that for people to rally together, 299 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: at least with the for a certain percentage of the 300 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 1: population to rally together, you need an other. You need 301 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 1: a common enemy. And she's and and and she said, 302 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: I'm only half joking here, but that common enemy, if 303 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 1: you really wanted to unite humanity, you'd say those aliens 304 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:44,719 Speaker 1: are gonna get us. Let's fight the aliens. And I 305 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: thought that was a really interesting provocation because she wasn't 306 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: trying to say, like change psychology, if only we weren't 307 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: this way. She was and she wasn't saying can't we 308 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: just all get along? She was saying, find a common 309 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: enemy that you can all agree upon. And perhaps it's 310 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: not in this galaxy. Wouldn't it be nice if climate 311 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: change could be our common enemy? Absolutely? And I think 312 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: I think there's an opportunity to do that. I think 313 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: climate change is a massive brand problem. I think part 314 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: of the psychology is like climate change needs to actually 315 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: fighting climate change, needs to be patriotic, needs to be exciting, 316 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: it needs to be something that's transgressive. Well, and it 317 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: is all of those things. But I would say that 318 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: the problem with climate change being accurately represented as our 319 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: common enemy is that there is a portion of people 320 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 1: who also tend towards the authoritarian in this country and 321 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: in the world, who make a lot of money by 322 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: sustaining climate disaster, and and so they have branded fighting 323 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: climate change as partisan rather than as patriotic, which is 324 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: of detriment to us. All. I mean, I remember a 325 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: few years ago I read a piece that was about 326 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: a small local group in North Carolina of of a 327 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 1: Christian activists who identified on the right side, like right 328 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: meaning politically right side of the spectrum, and they were 329 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: deeply concerned about climate change, and they're deeply concerned about 330 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: the environment, and the movement that they started was basically 331 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 1: reframing climate change as a Christian duty and as protecting 332 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,199 Speaker 1: the you know, God's creation. And to me this was 333 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: like this brilliant invitation to reframe what has become a 334 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:24,959 Speaker 1: polarizing issue within the values of a specific population. And 335 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 1: you don't have to have necessarily the same values to 336 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 1: fight a common cause. But I think in this country 337 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: right now and around the world, it's we are so polarized. 338 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: That's something that seems like such common sense, as protecting 339 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: our air and our water and what gives us life, um, 340 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: has become you know, disputable, has become controversial, and has 341 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: become something that frankly is dangerous to all of us. 342 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 1: You mentioned and sorry to be jumping around, but I'm 343 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: just so fascinated by so many things. And you mentioned, 344 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: you know, what you were studying in college, But I 345 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 1: am curious about the in between time still when you're 346 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: in school, junior high, high school, perhaps because of your 347 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: learning to navigate and you being so beautifully observational, or 348 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: about what's going on around you. What were you really 349 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: drawn to as a young woman as a student, What 350 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: were you reading, what were you interested in? Were their 351 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: activities you participated in in school? Um, It's such a 352 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: great question to me, as I look back, the activities 353 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: that most deeply shaped me were um team sports and 354 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: choreographed dancing and actually and and uh, perhaps I'm making 355 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: a little news here because I've never admitted this publicly. 356 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,959 Speaker 1: Marching band. Hey girl, what did you play in the marching? 357 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 1: Flute and piccolo? Okay? I played flute for one year 358 00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: in the sixth grade, and I was not good at it. 359 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: This is why you're a movie star. And I am 360 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: not to listen. I wish I could play an instrument. 361 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: So when I look back at it, so when I 362 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: was a child, the way like the my happy place 363 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: again and again and again was choreograph dancing with my friends. 364 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: And it wasn't particularly good. It wasn't particularly like, you know, 365 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: well executed. But my father and we didn't have a 366 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,120 Speaker 1: lot of money, he realized that I loved doing this, 367 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: and he went to he found um, this rug store 368 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: in our town, and he noticed that in the back 369 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: there was a dumpster and they would throw out basically 370 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: like carpets and the foam underneath the carpets, and he 371 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: would he went and he picked he got them, and 372 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: he put them in our basement and he created basically 373 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: six layers of foam from this, like the scarted foam 374 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: from this carpet store. And so my basement became kind 375 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: of like the dance slash gymnastics area, and my friends 376 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: and I would choreograph dance to Paul ab Duel and 377 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: you know, Madonna and I always even then, and I 378 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: didn't think of it in that way until now, but 379 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 1: even then this idea of kind of physical choreography that 380 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 1: is that is collective, that is that is synchronized in 381 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: a way, but is based on creativity. That's that you 382 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: once you master a specific dance move and you're all 383 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: in line, that's actually when you can start doing it 384 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 1: a flick and you know in your own way. I 385 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 1: played softball very seriously as a middle school in high school, 386 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: and a huge part of it, I often say softball 387 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: gave me my voice. And softball is an interesting sport 388 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,239 Speaker 1: because it's one of the only sports that I know 389 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: of where basically you the player and the cheerleader basically 390 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: is the same person. So when you're on the field, 391 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: you're playing right your I was a picture, I was 392 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,919 Speaker 1: a catcher. It's it's extremely physical. You have, like, you know, 393 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: really fastballs thrown at your head and you, you know, 394 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: it's a serious sport, and then when you go into 395 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: the dugout in softball, there's this tradition, there's this ritual 396 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: of cheering and the cheering and the jeering as of all, 397 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 1: it's like, it's very vocal, it's jeering, it's aggressive, it's 398 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: um actually literally allowing twelve and thirteen and fourteen year 399 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: old girls to practice voice, to practice not being nice, 400 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: to practice not being pretty, to practice not sounding quote 401 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: unquote perfect. And it was also this this other world 402 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: where it was okay to be antagonistic, it was okay 403 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: to be aggressive, and I played it seriously and I 404 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 1: ended up leading. I would lead a lot of chance, 405 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: I mean, along with my other fellow players. And I 406 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: think it gave me this opportunity to practice having voice 407 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: and practice another form of being a girl that didn't 408 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: follow the scripts that were around us. And so sports 409 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: to me was a huge place where I could I 410 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: could practice and be comfortable in my body. I could 411 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: be physical, I could be with other women and practice 412 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: mastery you were physically strong. There were all of these 413 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,959 Speaker 1: different ways where there were rules that anyone could understand. 414 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: End I mean, one of the things I argue for 415 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: and analyze in UM in the gathering research is why 416 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: rules are powerful and diverse societies. And they're powerful because 417 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,919 Speaker 1: anyone can understand them. Anyone can play softball or soccer, 418 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 1: or basketball or football because you're literally like, these are 419 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: the rules. That's a goal post. You know, three strikes 420 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: and you're out four balls. This anyone can learn them. 421 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: And in more impenetrable societies, a lot of these codes 422 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: and rules aren't learnable. You have to belong to a 423 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 1: place for forty years to understand how to actually navigate it. 424 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 1: Um And So I think I've always been attracted in 425 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: part because I've lived in different places to places where 426 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 1: rules are explicit, under understandable, and masterable because they are democratic. 427 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 1: So what does that mean? What's an example of a 428 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: place with masterable democratic rules that you've encountered? So one, 429 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's kind of a funny one. There's 430 00:24:54,200 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 1: a global phenomenon called dinner and Blanc. It's literally a 431 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: massive flash mob of a dinner party where everybody dresses 432 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: in white and there's these very strict rules. I mean, 433 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 1: it's in sixty or seventy countries cities around the world. 434 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,719 Speaker 1: It's in Kigali, it's in Haiti, it's in It started 435 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 1: in Paris, it's in Tokyo, it's in New York, it's 436 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: in Philadelphia. And waiting list for these dinners are literally 437 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,400 Speaker 1: like twenty six thousand people long. The dinners and many 438 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: of these cities are five thousand, ten thousand, fifteen thousand people. 439 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: And it started twenty five years ago. And I analyze 440 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: it in the book in part because it's this very 441 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 1: polarizing dinner because people either love it or hate it. 442 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: Like you can go online and there are like these 443 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: blogs that just basically like hate this dinner. Why would 444 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: you you know, why would you spend money to buy 445 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: a specific table? That's why do you have to have 446 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: white socks? Why do you have to? And the rules 447 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: are spelled out. There's like twenty four rules. You need 448 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 1: to wear white, no, no beer cans, you have to 449 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: pick up your own trash, uh, no plastic, bring your 450 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: own homemade food. Ideally, like there's all of these explicit 451 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: rules and what seems like something that's very elitist is 452 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 1: actually deeply democratic because it's explicit and anyone can follow 453 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 1: it or choose not to. And so in New York, 454 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: where I'm based when you go to these, if you 455 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: go to a dinner and Blanc, one of the things 456 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: you'll notice is it's extraordinarily diverse racially. It's one of 457 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: the most diverse public or private dinners in the city, 458 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: in part because the rules are masterable, and many of 459 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,880 Speaker 1: our circles, many of our private clubs, many of our 460 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 1: not even formal groups, but many of the groups that 461 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: you kind of have to earn earn access to, are 462 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: defined by unspoken rules, unspoken etiquette that if you don't 463 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 1: have the right degree, or you don't have the right training, 464 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: or you haven't been you know, brought up in the 465 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: right way, it's impossible to penetrate. And so I think 466 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: part I'm very interested also, and how do we meaningfully 467 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: gather as citizens? How do we gather in creative and 468 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: public ways that are still specific where there's a there there? 469 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 1: And I think in modern diverse societies, making temporary rules 470 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 1: explicit and understandable or is a way to make meaning 471 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 1: without all having to be the same forever, just for 472 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: about three hours. That is so cool. That's so cool. Also, 473 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: I want to go to one of those dares immediately, 474 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: and and it's a lot of work, like you literally 475 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: have to get at a table first. You have to apply, 476 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: and I think there's really a really long waiting list 477 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: in most cities, but you have to get a table 478 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: that's exactly the right amount long because they're actually trying 479 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: to build a line of you know, five thousand people 480 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: in a row. For a while, they only allowed men 481 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: and women. You bring a partner, and for a while 482 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 1: as only men and women, and then people protested and 483 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: they've changed that rule. But you have to struggle. You 484 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: it's a you show up at a specific time in 485 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: a specific city. The location changes every year. It's not 486 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: announced rain or shine, and it's a lot of work 487 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 1: to get to. But when you look at the people 488 00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 1: who you know love it, and not everybody does, but 489 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: who love it, they they basically say, part of the 490 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 1: struggle is the beauty of it. I want to be 491 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 1: here with a beautiful night where we can all kind 492 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: of be here together in this world of our making 493 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: that will disappear in three hours. Yeah, it's magical. It's magical. 494 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: And show up and you created, and you leave and 495 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: there's no trace. There's no trace, but there's a memory. 496 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: And and part of the memory is like gatherings are 497 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: powerful because they create a temporary alternative world for a 498 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: moment in time. They will not last forever, but creates 499 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: an imprint on you and a memory of if it 500 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: was possible, there where else could this be possible? One 501 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: of the people I sat down with for my book research, 502 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: so I interviewed hosts and gatherers who create these kind 503 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: of remarkable experiences. But I also interviewed a lot of guests, 504 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: so like get and I used that word kind of broadly, 505 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: like guests of Burning Man, guests of the Million Man March, 506 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: guests of the Woman's March, and um. One of the 507 00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: one of the men I sat down with as an 508 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: African America guy who lives in Harlem, and he told 509 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: me that, you know, almost twenty years later, one of 510 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: the most important experiences of his life was attending as 511 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: a young man the Million Man March. And I said, 512 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: why tell me, and he said, well, the memory of 513 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: it is, he said, I remember driving down from New York. 514 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: I remember honking on the on the highways with all 515 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: of with all of these different strangers, all going down 516 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: to the same place. I remember stopping at the gas 517 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: stations and filling up each other's gas. I remember like 518 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: practicing this different way of being. I remember walking up 519 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: to that, you know, to the National Monument, and I 520 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: looked and I just saw a sea of black faces. 521 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: And in that moment, I thought, Wow, this is what 522 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: dawn looks like. And he said, and then for a second, 523 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: I felt fear. And then I felt shame because I thought, 524 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: how can I a black man feel fear? What has 525 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: been trained and incult hated in me to feel fear? 526 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: And what a relief it is to stand here in 527 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: the crowd and not think that I am the problem, 528 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: but that I am the solution. And as I spoke 529 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: to him and listen, I said, but you know a lot, 530 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: and what do you think about that memory today, right 531 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: in a moment of increased police brutality, in a moment 532 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: of increased maternal mortality rates among African American mothers. And 533 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: he says, I know all of that. I'm aware of 534 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: all of that. And and and there are some of 535 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: my peers and some of my friends who say, what 536 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: was Who cares? That was another time? Look what's happened? 537 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: Things have gotten worse? But what why that gathering matters 538 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: to me is because I have a memory of what 539 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: dawn looked like, and I know it was possible because 540 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: I was there. And to me, gatherings that they're most 541 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: powerful are opportunities to kind of flick or wink at 542 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: another way of being for a temporary piece, a temporary moment, 543 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: to say, we were like this at one point, could 544 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: we be like this again? Yes? Wow? And that idea 545 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: that something can happen in a space where a community 546 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: comes together with an intention that makes you feel like 547 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: the course of history could be altered, and that in 548 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: fact does often alter it. Correct. And I think that 549 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: part of our problem in in my estimation and observation, 550 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: part of our problem is humans is that when things 551 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: like the million Man March happen, or when after World 552 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: War Two, we as a collective humanity say we could 553 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: never let that happen again. We think, because it's happened, 554 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: that it's fixed, because we've made a decision that we're 555 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: going to be better to each other, that that the 556 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: decision will magically appear as reality and society. But often 557 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: the things that give us the most inspiration, I think, 558 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: then make us rest a little too much, and and 559 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: then we don't pay attention when the powers that be 560 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: that want to maintain you know, when we talk about 561 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: the oil industry, for example, not wanting us to understand 562 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: that climate change is in fact bipartisan and and and 563 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: the plight of every person on the globe. I think 564 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: there are people who have been in such power that 565 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: they really take advantage of humans feeling like they've done 566 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: something to to actually steer us away from the progress 567 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: of those big events. You know, you look at look 568 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: at the first Women's March. We had the Women's March, 569 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: and then we saw the greatest sweeping anti abortion and 570 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: women and children and family restrictive legislation sweep America that 571 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: we've ever seen. We elected over a hundred women to Congress, 572 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: and then they essentially tried to keep everyone barefoot and pregnant. 573 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: And the thing is, I think babies are great. I 574 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 1: think pregnancy is great. If you're ready, if you have 575 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: the means, if you're financially able. I think it's your 576 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: decision and your family and your household with you and 577 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: your doctor and no one else. And the irony that 578 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: our supposed party of small government wants to literally be 579 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: up inside people's bodies is not lost on me. That's 580 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: that's very big government right there. And so it's it's 581 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: interesting to me how any time there's a win, there's 582 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: often a backlash by that sort of you know, dying 583 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: powerful historical thing. And I wonder you know you mentioned 584 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: earlier you studied political and social thought at the University 585 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: of Virginia and you also have dual master's degrees. I 586 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: mean casual, but I'm curious with your expertise what you 587 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: think of that sort of pendulum shift. You know that 588 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: every action has an equal and opposite reaction, and we 589 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: see it. We we elected Barack Obama and then the 590 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: world lost its mind and elected Donald Trump, and it's 591 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: like it's frightening. Thet of people who like authoritarianism sort 592 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: of rose up as we became more progressive aniston democratic 593 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: in America. So what do you what do you think 594 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: as an expert in these sort of social sciences, what 595 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: do you think that's about? And how do you think 596 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: we begin to reframe for each other? Are our gathering 597 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: space in our country. So you said something really interesting 598 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: at the outset um, which is we are at these 599 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: gatherings and we experience this this collective way of expressing 600 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: our values, and then we feel like, oh, we've did it, 601 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 1: it's done. And then and then you go back out 602 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:34,879 Speaker 1: into the world and it's not done. If in fact 603 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: it might be undone. It's like, look, we proved it, 604 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: we proved we all care, right, right, let's go back 605 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,359 Speaker 1: to our exactly, let's go And the way I think 606 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 1: about it is we it is a false notion that 607 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: we live in one world. We are simultaneously creating multiple 608 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: worlds all at the same time that we're stepping in 609 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 1: and out of that are competing against each other for 610 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: notions of the truth, for notions of what is this 611 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: world really, for notions of what is the right way 612 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: to be, for notions of what is the right role 613 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: of women in society. And so you have the Women's March, 614 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: where you know, millions of women came out and demonstrated 615 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,399 Speaker 1: and practiced what it was like to actually physically walk 616 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 1: together and practice a different way of being. And then 617 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: you have all of these, you know, anti abortion legislations 618 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: across the country in Georgia and um across the South. 619 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: And part of what in that context I believe we 620 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: are up against is underneath it. There is this question 621 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: of to me, what the battle underneath all of this 622 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: is what is what is the proper quote unquote what 623 00:35:55,280 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: is the role of a woman in society? There was 624 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: this article by Thomas ed Soelf maybe six or eight 625 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 1: months ago, and he said, why has this issue? There's 626 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,879 Speaker 1: been a number of issues that over the last thirty 627 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: years started as very controversial within the culture wars, and 628 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: two of the three of them have basically become less controversial. 629 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 1: And it was interracial marriage, it was gay marriage, and 630 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: it was abortion. And he says two of those three 631 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,280 Speaker 1: have basically sorted themselves out. But abortion is the sticky 632 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: wedge issue that keeps coming back again and again and again. 633 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: Why And he says it has become it is a 634 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: false notion that these are two competing value sets between 635 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: the life of a child and the woman's choice. That's 636 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 1: a distraction. He said, underneath all of this, what this actually, 637 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,440 Speaker 1: this deep, deep, deep argument about, is what is the 638 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: what is the proper role of a woman in society? 639 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: That is the battle. And so when you have these 640 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 1: competing gatherings where some people are experiencing that to be 641 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,399 Speaker 1: a woman can be many things. To be a woman 642 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: can be having, can be being a mother or not 643 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 1: being a mother, can being being a worker or not 644 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: being a worker can be, you know, having all types 645 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: of power um and then you have other gatherings that 646 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: are replicating a very different notion of what it means 647 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,360 Speaker 1: to be a woman. These are competing gatherings where different 648 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: people are experiencing a different way of being in a 649 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,799 Speaker 1: different world that that group is promising to create. Like 650 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: if you analyze it, Trump rally one of the reasons 651 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: they were so powerful. I remember watching the circus during 652 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 1: the campaign, during the two thousand sixteen campaign, and they 653 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,760 Speaker 1: would go and follow different candidates, and I remember watching 654 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:38,839 Speaker 1: one of the ones where they followed that they went 655 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: into a Trump rally and there was an African I 656 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,320 Speaker 1: think it's in South Carolina, but don't quote me on that, 657 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,399 Speaker 1: and it was an African American guy walking in and 658 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 1: they were like, why are you going into this Trump rally? 659 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: And he was like, I'm curious, And he walked in 660 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,320 Speaker 1: and they interviewed people all on the way out, and everybody, 661 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: including that guy, was like completely electrified. And I remember 662 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,120 Speaker 1: I watched that moment. I thought, oh, my goodness, we 663 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 1: are in trouble. And if you analyze and I'm not 664 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: the only one to say this, George Packer has written 665 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: about this as well, and a number of people have. 666 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: If you analyze what's actually happening at a Trump rally, 667 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: it is a ritual. It is a collective ritual of identity. 668 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 1: It is a collective ritual of practicing a world that 669 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 1: they want to create. Right the hats, the even like 670 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,799 Speaker 1: the press, the line, you know, the press Barrian making 671 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: them the enemy of the people, and having this other 672 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 1: the way that they're basically talking and practicing a physical 673 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,879 Speaker 1: embodiment of who they are and who they are not. 674 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: And it's this lived experience where you can all of 675 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 1: a sudden experience like, oh my gosh, in this moment, 676 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: I am seeing my grievances are talked about. It's okay 677 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: to say the things that I never actually thought I 678 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: should be saying and shouldn't be saying. But there there 679 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,360 Speaker 1: are these these lived, embodied practices of ritual, tribe building 680 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: and on the left, which are your and my values. 681 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: One of the opportunities and one of the actices for 682 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: this next generation is to figure out how do we 683 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: gather in the public square, how do we actually create 684 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: alternative worlds that embody the America that we know as possible. 685 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 1: How do we do that at a massive level, at 686 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:17,760 Speaker 1: a massive at at a massive countrywide, national local level, 687 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,839 Speaker 1: where we are practicing the world we know exists, if 688 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 1: we can just stay there long enough. And part of 689 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 1: the opportunity on the left is to create gatherings that 690 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: are as emotionally, psychologically, intellectually powerful, that are not where 691 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 1: everybody is the same, that's practicing embodying the America that 692 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 1: we are striving for, but showing that it's possible, not 693 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 1: just in the future but right now. And the only element, 694 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things about a Trump rally 695 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 1: is this this it's an it's this enormous release of emotion. 696 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: And on the left, the opportunity is to have a 697 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 1: counter balance, not of ideas, not of intellectual talking points, 698 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 1: but account to balance a release of emotion, but around 699 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 1: the opposite competing values of the America that we know 700 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 1: is possible because we have lived in small places, in 701 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 1: our families and our homes and our in our town halls, 702 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: but actually on a massive global stage that says no, no, no, no, 703 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 1: this is America. And there should be an opportunity for 704 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: us to do that, an opportunity for love and community 705 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: and connection rather than hate and grievance, to be the 706 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 1: center of what we believe in absolutely, and that that 707 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,920 Speaker 1: is a unifying cry, that is a rallying cry. And 708 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 1: if we go back to our earlier conversation that so, 709 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 1: then what are you against? To be for everybody actually 710 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: does mean to be against people who are not for everybody. 711 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 1: And part of the paradox of the left is this 712 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:56,400 Speaker 1: moral conviction to not line draw but in not line drawing, 713 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,080 Speaker 1: one is not actually able to say what one is for. 714 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,279 Speaker 1: That's so interesting. So one of the things, and you know, 715 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 1: my lens on all of this is gatherings. And one 716 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 1: of the things that I found again and again and 717 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 1: again is the gatherings that are transformative and meaningful, have 718 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: a specific, disputable purpose. They know they're gathering, and they're 719 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 1: okay if not everybody agrees. It's specific, it's for specific people, 720 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 1: it's not for everybody. They're comfortable excluding. They're not excluding 721 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,240 Speaker 1: based on race or class, they're excluding based on purpose. 722 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: But basically, and Barack Obama said this in his Dreams 723 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 1: of My Father, that his an aunt of this said 724 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 1: to him, she was talking about his his father to 725 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:38,919 Speaker 1: him when he went and visit Kenyan, and he said, 726 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: you know, the problem with your father was he believed 727 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,840 Speaker 1: that if everybody is family, nobody's family. And what he 728 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,919 Speaker 1: was arguing for is that you know too, in order 729 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 1: to create a community, a line has to be drawn. 730 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 1: And one of the most interesting questions I believe on 731 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 1: the left and of what I want for in the 732 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 1: future of America is what is the line? What does 733 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,319 Speaker 1: it mean to be a mary Arican? American is not 734 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:05,320 Speaker 1: actually everything. It is a very specific set of ideas 735 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 1: that have been rhyming and rolling around for the last 736 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 1: four years that have been a joke in certain quarters 737 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:14,799 Speaker 1: if you read Baldwin like one of the reasons James 738 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 1: Baldwin is so powerful is because he's saying, I am 739 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 1: arguing for the fulfillment of the American dream, right, not 740 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: for the abdication of it, and right now. Part of 741 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:30,440 Speaker 1: the what gatherings and political movements and visions are powerful 742 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 1: when they're specific, when they're disputable, and when they exclude 743 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 1: but not based on identity, based on belief and value systems. 744 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,080 Speaker 1: And again even that is complicated that that that doesn't 745 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,759 Speaker 1: mean religion, right, but it means not meaning needing to 746 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:47,799 Speaker 1: know who you're not as much as needing to know 747 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 1: who you are. But I like that idea where you 748 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,839 Speaker 1: said you will exclude based on purpose, because for me, 749 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,239 Speaker 1: you know, much much like the way that you grew up. 750 00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,200 Speaker 1: I grew up in a family that is multi faith 751 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,880 Speaker 1: and also gnostic, and I mean it led me to 752 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 1: study so many other religions, to want to learn about 753 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: so many other cultures. I'm really grateful that my parents 754 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,360 Speaker 1: were so open to me doing that, um and that 755 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,759 Speaker 1: I went to a school that had so much diversity 756 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 1: and so much respect for diversity in it. You know, 757 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,839 Speaker 1: I'm aware that I have the privilege of exposure uh 758 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,960 Speaker 1: and and and kind exposure to so many other types 759 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:29,000 Speaker 1: of people. I have for so long had that feeling 760 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 1: of everyone as family. There's no such thing as other 761 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,360 Speaker 1: people's children. Your your plight is my plight, Our liberty 762 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: is absolutely bound together. But what I've had to get 763 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,960 Speaker 1: really solid on in the last couple of years, and 764 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,680 Speaker 1: especially when you know you you cast a wide net 765 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:48,960 Speaker 1: as far as an audience, in the way that because 766 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 1: of my career I have now people will really come 767 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 1: for me in ways that are sometimes very frightening and 768 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:01,080 Speaker 1: often very aggressive. And you know you really aunt please everybody. 769 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,400 Speaker 1: And I finally a while back, said, you know what, 770 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,440 Speaker 1: I'm here for everyone. But if you think that my 771 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 1: friends don't deserve what you deserve because they look different 772 00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,680 Speaker 1: than you, I'm not here for you. Actually, I will 773 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 1: have a conversation with you. If I were to be 774 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:21,320 Speaker 1: invited to your dinner table for a for a purposeful gathering, 775 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,359 Speaker 1: maybe I would sit if I could guarantee, if you 776 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,320 Speaker 1: could guarantee to me that you would at least respect 777 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,480 Speaker 1: me enough to have a dialogue and not an argument. 778 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:33,279 Speaker 1: I will dialogue with anyone, virtually anyone. But when I 779 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,000 Speaker 1: am out doing my work in the world and when 780 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,319 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about who I welcome into my spaces, I 781 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:42,040 Speaker 1: absolutely draw a line based on what we believe purpose 782 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,080 Speaker 1: to be. I think this is one of the most 783 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,640 Speaker 1: interesting arguments we're having as a country right now. Our 784 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,759 Speaker 1: mutual friend Glennon, right before Thanksgiving posted this thing on 785 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: Instagram and I won't quote it exactly, but it was 786 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: a repost from somebody, but it was like ways to 787 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 1: not have an anxiety field Thanksgiving this year, And it 788 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,719 Speaker 1: was like a five pointless and it was like, don't 789 00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 1: invite your racist relatives and um. Simultaneously, there was a 790 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:13,040 Speaker 1: there was a I'm not forgetting. I think it was 791 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: the author of How to Be Anti Rate and Anti Racist, 792 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,799 Speaker 1: arguing about like how and why At this moment, more 793 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:24,319 Speaker 1: than ever, it's important to actually engage and what is 794 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 1: this dispute about? At some level, right, it's the culture, 795 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,440 Speaker 1: It's it's happening in all of our contexts. It's basically saying, 796 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: so conflict resolution, which is my field. In any type 797 00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 1: of dialogue, the preparation happens before anyone arrives. And part 798 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,400 Speaker 1: of what happens is there are preconditions of what are 799 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:45,880 Speaker 1: the terms around which I'm willing to engage? And there's 800 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,160 Speaker 1: a line in any of these thanksgiving meals, and I 801 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,680 Speaker 1: you know, I struggle with this myself, which is when 802 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,960 Speaker 1: when is it okay to come together with people who 803 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 1: share different beliefs than you and and versus where is 804 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:03,160 Speaker 1: the line that one needs to actually self protect? And 805 00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,359 Speaker 1: I think that part, I think the verdict is out 806 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,680 Speaker 1: at some level, particularly within our families, because if you 807 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:14,800 Speaker 1: if we exclude all of the people who my husband 808 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,799 Speaker 1: us has this kind of phrase, he talks, He talks 809 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,080 Speaker 1: about the woke and the still waking, and he says, 810 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,920 Speaker 1: if you if we exclude the people who are still waking, 811 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:28,040 Speaker 1: we can't actually expand the circle of the woke. But 812 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:32,360 Speaker 1: on the other hand, it's a uh. One needs to 813 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 1: feel safe. And so I think you know, in any 814 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,279 Speaker 1: type of and And the reason I think gatherings are 815 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,280 Speaker 1: helpful is because we can talk kind of vaguely about 816 00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,840 Speaker 1: hypothetical experiences or community. But I think and every time 817 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 1: you are a host or a guest, but particularly anytime 818 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,440 Speaker 1: you want to bring people together. One of the reasons 819 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:49,800 Speaker 1: are gatherings are kind of vague and diluted is because 820 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,799 Speaker 1: we have focused more on form than first asking why 821 00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,600 Speaker 1: am I doing this? So a birthday party, you think like, well, 822 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:58,480 Speaker 1: I'm here to celebrate my birthday, and you and we 823 00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 1: kind of like assume like candles on birthday cake and 824 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:02,880 Speaker 1: don't necessarily think about all of the thousands of ways 825 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,920 Speaker 1: one could celebrate a birthday party or a wedding, and 826 00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:07,919 Speaker 1: of a sudden you think about the form rather than 827 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,520 Speaker 1: the ritual or the dress or the colors. Like the 828 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,359 Speaker 1: question like what are your colors to me? Is like 829 00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,160 Speaker 1: the leading indicator that we are having the wrong conversation 830 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 1: about how to have weddings right versus like, how are 831 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 1: you thinking about organizing the ritual? How are you thinking 832 00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:28,160 Speaker 1: about combining your belief systems? How what parts of yourselves 833 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:29,880 Speaker 1: are you going to show for your to your community 834 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:31,960 Speaker 1: and what parts are you going to keep hidden? What 835 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 1: is just for your partnership and what is actually important 836 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,200 Speaker 1: for the community? Come together? Why are you actually having 837 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,480 Speaker 1: a wedding versus going to city hall? Is it to 838 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,520 Speaker 1: bring together and unite your tribe that will never again 839 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:44,480 Speaker 1: be in the same room and when the going gets tough, 840 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:46,920 Speaker 1: they're gonna have a stake in the fight of your marriage. 841 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,680 Speaker 1: Or is it to have little sub family reunions where 842 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:51,640 Speaker 1: your college buddies are at one table and your family 843 00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,120 Speaker 1: your cousins are at another and everybody gets to kind 844 00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,040 Speaker 1: of on your on your bill, have a nice dinner. 845 00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,560 Speaker 1: And a huge part of any gathering is to first 846 00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:03,680 Speaker 1: ask what is the need and why am I doing this? 847 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:05,799 Speaker 1: Who is this for? First and to allow it be 848 00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,960 Speaker 1: specific and disputable. I'll say on weddings for a second, 849 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:13,320 Speaker 1: just because it's kind of like this like deeply universal example, 850 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,920 Speaker 1: So so a wedding, you know many of the fights 851 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:21,800 Speaker 1: that happened during weddings are proxy wars about purpose. So 852 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,360 Speaker 1: a mother wants to invite their her college, her her colleague, 853 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,359 Speaker 1: and you want to invite your old college roommate, and 854 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,239 Speaker 1: there's one seat left. At some level, that's not actually 855 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:37,319 Speaker 1: a question around around who's who's closer. It's actually this 856 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,759 Speaker 1: deeper question of who is this wedding for. First, at 857 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,040 Speaker 1: the end of the day, is this first and foremost 858 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,239 Speaker 1: to honor one's parents? And in some cultures that's sort 859 00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:48,560 Speaker 1: of like this is actually the final right of parents, 860 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,239 Speaker 1: where they in India, you know, this is certainly true. 861 00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:53,520 Speaker 1: You've kind of like done your duties once you've gotten 862 00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:58,000 Speaker 1: your children married, um or the parents are part of it, 863 00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,360 Speaker 1: but this is actually an opportunity to center the couple. 864 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:02,880 Speaker 1: And those are two different visions of a wedding and 865 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:07,800 Speaker 1: there either is fined but but choose. And similarly in 866 00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,520 Speaker 1: in whether it's our dinner parties or our board meetings 867 00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,120 Speaker 1: or our birthday parties, to just say, hey, I want 868 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,920 Speaker 1: to bring my friends together. It's fine, but many of 869 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,480 Speaker 1: our gatherings are kind of blah. So you know, we 870 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,799 Speaker 1: are at a moment where we're suffering from from isolation 871 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,160 Speaker 1: were lonelier than ever. And when we get together, it's frankly, 872 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:27,960 Speaker 1: it's not even necessarily enough to get together, right if 873 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:29,840 Speaker 1: everyone's on their phones or you're not particularly having a 874 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,840 Speaker 1: meaningful conversation, you're talking about the weather, you're I don't know, 875 00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,040 Speaker 1: you're exchanging business cards and feeling like you're people are 876 00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:38,160 Speaker 1: peering over your shoulders, like you can actually go to 877 00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,719 Speaker 1: a gathering and feel deeply isolated. And so part of 878 00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,960 Speaker 1: what I'm arguing for is to say, if we are 879 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,280 Speaker 1: at a moment where we are going through a crisis 880 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,640 Speaker 1: of meaning and of community and of connection, how do 881 00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:54,719 Speaker 1: we actually take this as a sacred responsibility to when 882 00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,840 Speaker 1: you decide to bring people together, you make it worthy 883 00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:01,400 Speaker 1: of their time. Um, And is that the kind of 884 00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:07,399 Speaker 1: thing that you begin learning about studying organizational design? Yeah, 885 00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:10,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I think part part of what my you know, 886 00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,000 Speaker 1: when I studied organizational design, one of the things that 887 00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:17,000 Speaker 1: most taught me was about power and group dynamics. How 888 00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:19,360 Speaker 1: so so one of the one of the fathers of 889 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,279 Speaker 1: organizational design design is a man named Edgar Shine, and 890 00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,280 Speaker 1: in the seventies he and his colleagues studied these groups 891 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,839 Speaker 1: as phenomenon called t groups, and they were groups of 892 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,840 Speaker 1: people who agreed to sign up to spend a week together, 893 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:38,000 Speaker 1: like twelve hours a day, without a facilitator, without any norms, 894 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,360 Speaker 1: without any rules. They basically had to come together in 895 00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:42,520 Speaker 1: a room and figure out what to do and committed 896 00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:44,680 Speaker 1: to doing it for seven days in a row. And 897 00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,680 Speaker 1: he'd watched these group experiences unfold and in the beginning 898 00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,600 Speaker 1: and different groups, you're kind of polite or you're you know, 899 00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:53,960 Speaker 1: seating to one another, and after a while you just thinking, Okay, 900 00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:55,680 Speaker 1: what are we gonna actually do with this time? And 901 00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,400 Speaker 1: the group? He basically says, every group for it to 902 00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,720 Speaker 1: find equilibert M has to contend with these two parts, 903 00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:07,279 Speaker 1: their relationship to authority or power and their relationship to intimacy. 904 00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,080 Speaker 1: Who's in charge here? And how safe is it to 905 00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:16,920 Speaker 1: show myself? And that core insight was deeply helpful to 906 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:20,600 Speaker 1: me to understand how groups actually work, but also how 907 00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,640 Speaker 1: gatherings work. So simple example, you know, you're in a 908 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,920 Speaker 1: family family context, you're deciding to go out for dinner, 909 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,640 Speaker 1: and in a microcosm, who decides is that the young 910 00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:33,759 Speaker 1: sister who always gets her way? Is that the dad 911 00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:35,799 Speaker 1: who always decides? I want Mexican, I want Chinese, I 912 00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,279 Speaker 1: want Italian? Who decides and how do you actually make 913 00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:41,160 Speaker 1: that decision? So if you think about authority just simply 914 00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,120 Speaker 1: as decision making, how do decision making happen in a group. 915 00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:46,359 Speaker 1: You're at a dinner party and and there's not enough 916 00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,440 Speaker 1: structure or context, or the host isn't actually saying like welcome, 917 00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,120 Speaker 1: this is who you each are. Like I'm I'm in 918 00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:53,960 Speaker 1: a moment where I'm really thinking about what is home. 919 00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,640 Speaker 1: I'm an immigrant and at a moment where i feel 920 00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:58,360 Speaker 1: like I'm not sure if I'm wanted in this country. 921 00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,279 Speaker 1: Something on my mind is home? What is home to you? 922 00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,360 Speaker 1: Like they're what they're doing is they're actually orienting the 923 00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,680 Speaker 1: group to have a meaningful conversation. They're making a decision 924 00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:09,200 Speaker 1: for the group to say, I gathered you. Then this 925 00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:10,880 Speaker 1: is a moment of focus. This is how we can 926 00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:14,279 Speaker 1: meaningfully connect. They're actually coordinating the group. Whereas if you 927 00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:16,080 Speaker 1: sit in a dinner party, and this is true in 928 00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,200 Speaker 1: any context, a group has to kind of figure out 929 00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,439 Speaker 1: how it's going to work together, and that work could 930 00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:24,879 Speaker 1: be dancing, that work could be talking, That work could 931 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,640 Speaker 1: be making decisions about the future of the oil industry, 932 00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,440 Speaker 1: but at some level, every gathering is a group of 933 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,440 Speaker 1: people three or more. So I define a gathering as 934 00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:34,520 Speaker 1: anytime three or more people come together for a purpose, 935 00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:37,040 Speaker 1: just to figure out what are we going to talk about? 936 00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:39,160 Speaker 1: What's safe here? How much am I going to show 937 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,560 Speaker 1: of myself who's in charge? And if it goes off 938 00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,640 Speaker 1: the rails, am I going to be safe? And so 939 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:49,080 Speaker 1: organizational design, but particularly that idea of power but also 940 00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:52,600 Speaker 1: of intimacy, deeply helped me give language and a lens 941 00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,520 Speaker 1: to what I instinctively kind of new and understood from 942 00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,000 Speaker 1: my own life, but made sense of it in a 943 00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:01,760 Speaker 1: way that I realized, Oh, the role of the host 944 00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:06,080 Speaker 1: is to actually use their power, his or her power 945 00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:08,560 Speaker 1: ahead of time to say this is why we're gathering, 946 00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,239 Speaker 1: this is what I want from you, this is what 947 00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,560 Speaker 1: it means to be a successful guest here, and then 948 00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,000 Speaker 1: in the moment to connect their guests to each other, 949 00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:20,000 Speaker 1: to protect them, to equalize them. Um, I'll I think 950 00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:21,799 Speaker 1: I may have shared this when we're together live, but 951 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:23,640 Speaker 1: I'll share the story because I think it illustrates this 952 00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,319 Speaker 1: point in a really simple way. A woman approached me, 953 00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,040 Speaker 1: a woman named Jency Dunn, when the Art of Gathering 954 00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:31,640 Speaker 1: came out last year, wrote me and said, I have 955 00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:34,640 Speaker 1: to write an article for Real Simple magazine about how 956 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:39,040 Speaker 1: to art of gathering a five a dinner party, and um, 957 00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:40,640 Speaker 1: and I think she thought I was going to say, like, 958 00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:43,440 Speaker 1: put the fish knife here, put the wine here, you know, 959 00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:47,040 Speaker 1: serve this. And I asked her the same question that 960 00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:48,719 Speaker 1: I ask everybody, which is, what is a need in 961 00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,400 Speaker 1: your life that by bringing a specific group of people 962 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:53,719 Speaker 1: you might be able to address? She thought, and she 963 00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:56,080 Speaker 1: was like for a dinner party. I said, yeah, just 964 00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:59,439 Speaker 1: like for a dinner party. And she said, well, I'm 965 00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:01,600 Speaker 1: a worn out mom. I was at a friend's house 966 00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:03,120 Speaker 1: the other day and she cut me a peanut butter 967 00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,720 Speaker 1: and jelly sandwich into triangles and give me baby carrot sticks. 968 00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,759 Speaker 1: And I burst into tear And I said, why did 969 00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:10,680 Speaker 1: you burst into tears? And she said, because I'm a 970 00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:12,879 Speaker 1: worn out mom. And I realized it is the first 971 00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:14,799 Speaker 1: time in a long time that I felt taken care of, 972 00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:17,480 Speaker 1: and I said, and she said, what if I hosted 973 00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:20,279 Speaker 1: a dinner party from my other worn out moms? And 974 00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,000 Speaker 1: I said, great, give it a name, and she called 975 00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:26,200 Speaker 1: it the worn Out Mom's Hooting nanny, and I said, 976 00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,600 Speaker 1: give it a rule, going back to our conversation, my rules, 977 00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,600 Speaker 1: and she said, if you talk about your kids, you 978 00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:36,000 Speaker 1: have to take a shot. And she's like, okay, now 979 00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:37,600 Speaker 1: do I send it out on paper less post or evin? 980 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:38,880 Speaker 1: And I said, just put it in an email. You're 981 00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:41,200 Speaker 1: worn out, like make it embodied, make it simple, putting 982 00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,600 Speaker 1: the subject line worn out, Mom's hooting, nanny, say what 983 00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:45,719 Speaker 1: the rule is, and and send it out. And she 984 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:48,040 Speaker 1: sent it to six friends with six women friends, six 985 00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:50,560 Speaker 1: mom friends and they all wrote rs VP back yes 986 00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:52,520 Speaker 1: within forty five minutes. She like texted me later and 987 00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,440 Speaker 1: I was like, oh my gosh, they're so excited. So 988 00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:57,440 Speaker 1: and then they did it and why Like all of 989 00:54:57,520 --> 00:54:59,520 Speaker 1: a sudden, she took something that she thought she was 990 00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:01,719 Speaker 1: trying to affect the form a dinner party, right, you 991 00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,120 Speaker 1: kind of imagine it's like stiff back, like chopping your 992 00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:06,560 Speaker 1: fish in the right way and having the wineglass on 993 00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:08,640 Speaker 1: the table. And she shifted the lens of what she 994 00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,960 Speaker 1: was trying to perfect. She wasn't trying to perfect the form. 995 00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:15,840 Speaker 1: She was trying to actually perfect or inquire, what is 996 00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,520 Speaker 1: the need that I have? Who else shares that? And 997 00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:22,680 Speaker 1: how might we address it together, and it was a 998 00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:25,920 Speaker 1: purpose that was specific. It was disputable. Our dad's invited, 999 00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:28,200 Speaker 1: not tonight. You know what, if I don't want to 1000 00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,040 Speaker 1: take a shot on a Tuesday night, too bad, don't 1001 00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:32,880 Speaker 1: come this time. But because it was specific and disputable, 1002 00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,680 Speaker 1: it was suitable right. People got excited about it. There 1003 00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,360 Speaker 1: was a there there. And the reason I love this 1004 00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:40,919 Speaker 1: example is because going back to our earlier conversation about 1005 00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,400 Speaker 1: the role of women in society, it was this interestingly 1006 00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:49,200 Speaker 1: radical act as well. Why because she was basically saying, 1007 00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:52,880 Speaker 1: just because we are mothers doesn't mean that when we 1008 00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:56,040 Speaker 1: come together we have to talk about our children. Just 1009 00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:59,200 Speaker 1: because we share this identity as women, doesn't mean that 1010 00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:01,360 Speaker 1: that's the only way we can talk about anything in 1011 00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,160 Speaker 1: the world. We are going to take this conversation off 1012 00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:06,239 Speaker 1: the table and we're going to talk about all of 1013 00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,160 Speaker 1: the other parts of ourselves that are also within this 1014 00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:12,080 Speaker 1: complex individual but so often get passed over for that 1015 00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:15,200 Speaker 1: first part of the conversation. Absolutely, and that goes to 1016 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,680 Speaker 1: this like quietly radical question of what is the woman's 1017 00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:21,560 Speaker 1: world and what is the woman's role in society? And 1018 00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:25,279 Speaker 1: can you be many things? And maybe people would be 1019 00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:28,200 Speaker 1: more comfortable with us being many things if we had 1020 00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:30,120 Speaker 1: the space to talk about the many things that we 1021 00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:33,799 Speaker 1: are absolutely and same with men, right, I think one 1022 00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,279 Speaker 1: of the goals of one of like, gatherings and conversations 1023 00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:38,759 Speaker 1: are powerful when you don't try to make the group 1024 00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:43,960 Speaker 1: the same. You try to complicate the individual m and 1025 00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,920 Speaker 1: then you give them permission to be complicated. Absolutely. You 1026 00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,000 Speaker 1: said something earlier that interests me when we talk about 1027 00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:53,640 Speaker 1: the specificity of gathering in examples like this, you said 1028 00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:56,240 Speaker 1: that a gathering doesn't count if everyone's on their phones. 1029 00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:00,200 Speaker 1: What do you as a as a researcher, what do 1030 00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:03,799 Speaker 1: you see as the shift? Because it seemed that gatherings 1031 00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:05,960 Speaker 1: were more natural, whether or not they actually had a 1032 00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:10,600 Speaker 1: direction prior to technology, prior to the ability to just 1033 00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:14,080 Speaker 1: scroll on our phones. So what do you see the 1034 00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:17,720 Speaker 1: impact of technology being on on the art of gathering. 1035 00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:21,640 Speaker 1: I don't know if gatherings were more natural or not, 1036 00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,680 Speaker 1: but they were definitely more present. And part of that 1037 00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:30,200 Speaker 1: is because we couldn't escape even if we wanted to. Right. 1038 00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:32,720 Speaker 1: It's not saying they were better, but there was nowhere 1039 00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,080 Speaker 1: else to go except literally like leave, right, you can 1040 00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:37,520 Speaker 1: go to the bathroom, you could leave. And part of 1041 00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:39,640 Speaker 1: the danger of gatherings right now is even when we're 1042 00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:42,000 Speaker 1: in person, even when we're physically in front of one another, 1043 00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:45,120 Speaker 1: we can still escape into the most interesting other worlds 1044 00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:47,760 Speaker 1: in a flick of a in the swipe of a thumb. 1045 00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:52,600 Speaker 1: And because and Tristan Harris talks about this, because there 1046 00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:55,080 Speaker 1: are thousands of engineers working to make us more and 1047 00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:58,240 Speaker 1: more addicted to these phones. Etiquette isn't strong enough to 1048 00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:00,200 Speaker 1: prevent us from what looking at our phones, right we're 1049 00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:03,480 Speaker 1: actually addicted. And so part of the um you know, 1050 00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,200 Speaker 1: I had a um, a Colombian woman say to me 1051 00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:09,560 Speaker 1: the other day. She said, I was so moved I 1052 00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:12,160 Speaker 1: went she she she went to a birthday party where 1053 00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:13,720 Speaker 1: there was a rule that there was no phone, so 1054 00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,120 Speaker 1: you couldn't you couldn't be on your phone. And she said, 1055 00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:19,480 Speaker 1: I was so moved. It was so amazing to have 1056 00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:22,080 Speaker 1: everybody like talking to each other and looking up at 1057 00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:25,120 Speaker 1: each other and just engaged. I have not experienced that 1058 00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:26,919 Speaker 1: in a very long time. And this is a woman 1059 00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:30,800 Speaker 1: who's in her fifties, is Colombian, she's an immigrant, and 1060 00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:34,600 Speaker 1: she comes from these collective cultures where, at least in 1061 00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:39,120 Speaker 1: my mind gatherings are like these deeply communal present functions. 1062 00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:41,680 Speaker 1: And I said to her, what do you mean. I 1063 00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,120 Speaker 1: I like, I take inspiration from how you gather And 1064 00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:46,960 Speaker 1: she says, not anymore. All of our gatherings, even when 1065 00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:51,640 Speaker 1: they're multigenerational, everybody is on their phone. So this has spread. 1066 00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:55,240 Speaker 1: This is ubiquitous, this is intergenerational, this is universal, and 1067 00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:58,160 Speaker 1: this is deeply dangerous, and so part I mean, and 1068 00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:00,400 Speaker 1: there's people who are trying to you know, there's rules, 1069 00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:02,200 Speaker 1: going back to the rules. As a phone stack rule, 1070 00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:03,520 Speaker 1: you put your phone in the middle of the table. 1071 00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:06,040 Speaker 1: If you're a restaurant with friends or colleagues, the first 1072 00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:09,120 Speaker 1: person who looks at their phone has to foot the bill, right, 1073 00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:11,880 Speaker 1: It's a tumbler rule. There's a bread company that now 1074 00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:13,960 Speaker 1: has a box that they put on a table and 1075 00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:17,360 Speaker 1: and it blocks cell phone signal, so anyone who comes 1076 00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,280 Speaker 1: within seven feet of it, your phone doesn't work. And 1077 00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:22,760 Speaker 1: part of this is like when are when we actually 1078 00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:25,880 Speaker 1: are addicted to our phones, you need something stronger than 1079 00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:28,800 Speaker 1: etiquette or norms to not actually look at it. But 1080 00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:31,640 Speaker 1: also you need to be pretty pretty interesting. You need 1081 00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:34,440 Speaker 1: to find the relevant conversation. You know, if all of 1082 00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:36,919 Speaker 1: a sudden, you're if no one is actually talking about 1083 00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:38,880 Speaker 1: anything interesting, it is actually much more fun to go 1084 00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:40,520 Speaker 1: on Instagram or go in the New York Times or 1085 00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:43,680 Speaker 1: going whatever you read. But if somebody's talking about their 1086 00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:47,200 Speaker 1: relationship to money, and what the what the early stories 1087 00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:49,640 Speaker 1: that their parents told them informed them about whether or 1088 00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:51,720 Speaker 1: not we were people who were frugal or we were 1089 00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:54,320 Speaker 1: people who were had You know, our money is evil 1090 00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:56,280 Speaker 1: or money is power, or money is whatever the things 1091 00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:58,240 Speaker 1: you think about money, All of a sudden, you're gonna 1092 00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:00,400 Speaker 1: put your phone away and look up and think, huh, 1093 01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:03,840 Speaker 1: what are the stories implicitly or explicitly that I grew up. 1094 01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:06,160 Speaker 1: That's something I'm trying to figure out that's worthy of 1095 01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:09,120 Speaker 1: my attention. So this is also like the stakes are 1096 01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:13,000 Speaker 1: high to find conversation that's meaningful and relevant, not like 1097 01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:15,160 Speaker 1: so that we can all say that we had a 1098 01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:17,280 Speaker 1: nice night, but because we're all trying to figure out 1099 01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:20,720 Speaker 1: how to live and we're looking to each other to 1100 01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:23,560 Speaker 1: answer some of those questions. And if we're not doing 1101 01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:26,160 Speaker 1: that at our gatherings, what are we doing? So how 1102 01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:30,720 Speaker 1: do you define a meaningful connection? Um, that's a great question. 1103 01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:35,800 Speaker 1: I think it's it's an ability to to allow yourself 1104 01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:40,480 Speaker 1: to be seen and to see m hm. And you 1105 01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:42,640 Speaker 1: know there's this old saying, you know, parties are to 1106 01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:45,480 Speaker 1: see and be seen, right, but it but it actually 1107 01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:48,439 Speaker 1: means like who was there? What are you wearing? Like? 1108 01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:50,920 Speaker 1: You know, everyone showed their face. Well, it's one thing 1109 01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:54,280 Speaker 1: to be observed correct, another thing to be seen correct. 1110 01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:58,240 Speaker 1: And we are so hungry to be seen. But in 1111 01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:00,680 Speaker 1: most of our gatherings that stays on that surface level, 1112 01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:03,560 Speaker 1: and in an Instagram mage it stays on that even 1113 01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:07,160 Speaker 1: more because it's a visual medium and what you're rewarded 1114 01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:09,560 Speaker 1: for is actually just the visual. How if you have 1115 01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:12,040 Speaker 1: a meaningful conversation, how do you capture that on Instagram? 1116 01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:15,440 Speaker 1: Frankly you probably shouldn't captured on Instagram? Right, It's it's 1117 01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:18,480 Speaker 1: actually that's what intimacy is. Um. But I think a 1118 01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:21,360 Speaker 1: meaningful connection is is any any time. And this can 1119 01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:25,200 Speaker 1: also be in a work context when people are actually 1120 01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:30,840 Speaker 1: talking about first something that's relevant, something that affects them, 1121 01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:33,360 Speaker 1: and something in which you can see the other for 1122 01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:35,439 Speaker 1: who they are trying to be or there are many 1123 01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:38,120 Speaker 1: sides and selves and something in in in a moment 1124 01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:40,680 Speaker 1: in which you are also being willing to be seen 1125 01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:43,560 Speaker 1: for your many selves, but also for the parts of 1126 01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:47,200 Speaker 1: us that are still being baked, right, Like we are 1127 01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:50,080 Speaker 1: each works in progress. And so part of the reason 1128 01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:52,440 Speaker 1: this doesn't happen anymore because everyone's on their phones, but 1129 01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:55,240 Speaker 1: on airplanes or train rides, you know, years ago, you 1130 01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:59,920 Speaker 1: would I would have these long, epic conversation with strangers 1131 01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:01,840 Speaker 1: where you kind of tell them your life story. You 1132 01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:03,400 Speaker 1: you know, you just you share all of these things 1133 01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:05,680 Speaker 1: that you would never tell somebody in your own world. 1134 01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:10,160 Speaker 1: Why because with a stranger, you can practice different sides 1135 01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:13,800 Speaker 1: of yourselves. You can be complicated, you can practice different 1136 01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,840 Speaker 1: avatars um you can, you can you can try things out, 1137 01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:20,000 Speaker 1: and they don't have a stake in the fight of 1138 01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:23,200 Speaker 1: your identity. There's no gravity when you share with a stranger. 1139 01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:26,120 Speaker 1: There's no gravity when you why in part because our 1140 01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:30,280 Speaker 1: identities are communal, Right, There's this African phrase ubuntu I 1141 01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:32,120 Speaker 1: am who I am because you are who you are, 1142 01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:37,200 Speaker 1: and that's a it's a statement of interdependence, but it's 1143 01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:41,280 Speaker 1: also a statement of imprisonment. Right. So like when you're 1144 01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:43,480 Speaker 1: embedded in a community and all of a sudden, if 1145 01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:47,480 Speaker 1: I've always played a specific role and I'm the I'm 1146 01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:50,320 Speaker 1: the good daughter, and so my brother can be I'm 1147 01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:52,480 Speaker 1: making this up, my brother can be the rebellious child. 1148 01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:54,680 Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, if I'm done being the 1149 01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:58,080 Speaker 1: good child, and not only shifts, it shifts everybody else's 1150 01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:00,720 Speaker 1: identity if I start rebelling. But because then they have 1151 01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:02,160 Speaker 1: to figure out what are they going to be in 1152 01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:05,840 Speaker 1: this system? And so part our identities are also collective 1153 01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:09,960 Speaker 1: and they're intertwined with each other, which is why gatherings 1154 01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:15,720 Speaker 1: are opportunities for collective identity formation. But gatherings, I always 1155 01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:19,080 Speaker 1: say this, gatherings are not just a practice in the WI. Right, 1156 01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:22,240 Speaker 1: if you're just practicing the WII. If gatherings are all 1157 01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:24,960 Speaker 1: we that is a cult. Right, You're you're everybody is 1158 01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:27,560 Speaker 1: exactly the same, and there's no opportunity to be anything different. 1159 01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:30,840 Speaker 1: But if you're only an eye, you're a federation. And 1160 01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:33,520 Speaker 1: so the balance of all group life and gatherings is 1161 01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:36,960 Speaker 1: how do you have both space for the eye and 1162 01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:40,520 Speaker 1: space for the wei. There's a teacher and a philosopher 1163 01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:43,160 Speaker 1: named Thomas Hubill who talks about these twin polarities in 1164 01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:45,720 Speaker 1: group life, called these two forces. In any type of 1165 01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:48,360 Speaker 1: group which is the desire to belong and the desire 1166 01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:51,080 Speaker 1: to become. How do I be in a group and 1167 01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:53,960 Speaker 1: belong to it? But also where is there a space 1168 01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:57,000 Speaker 1: for me to become what I'm supposed to be? And 1169 01:03:57,040 --> 01:04:00,720 Speaker 1: what is the dance between those two things. Paul Tillich, 1170 01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:04,560 Speaker 1: who's a Christian theologian from the fifties, talked about the 1171 01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,160 Speaker 1: same sense of two ideas and and he says, all 1172 01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:09,600 Speaker 1: group life is defined by these two forces, these two 1173 01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:12,960 Speaker 1: twin forces, power and love. And he says, power is 1174 01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,640 Speaker 1: the desire to self actualized. It's the eye, it's the 1175 01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:20,080 Speaker 1: It's that at the extreme, Hitler was practicing self actualization. 1176 01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:22,760 Speaker 1: It's totally evil, but it was. It was its power. 1177 01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:26,800 Speaker 1: Power is the is the eye no matter what. And 1178 01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:30,400 Speaker 1: love is the desire for the separated to be in union, 1179 01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:33,600 Speaker 1: the separated to be whole. And he says all group 1180 01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:36,920 Speaker 1: life is basically these two twin forces. And but power 1181 01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:41,520 Speaker 1: without love is abusive, and love without power is anemic. 1182 01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:46,080 Speaker 1: It's without life. And we tend to swing in our 1183 01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:51,280 Speaker 1: organizations and our family systems between anemia and abuse. Right, 1184 01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:54,320 Speaker 1: I just talked earlier about healthy unhealthy peace. We also 1185 01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:56,840 Speaker 1: we swing between unhealthy peace, which is like I don't 1186 01:04:56,840 --> 01:04:59,360 Speaker 1: feel safe saying what I actually want to say because 1187 01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:03,480 Speaker 1: I and to belong to this place, or unhealthy conflict 1188 01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:05,880 Speaker 1: or exiting right, I can't actually be who I am here, 1189 01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:08,280 Speaker 1: so I'm going to leave. And part of what we're 1190 01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:11,600 Speaker 1: arguing for and fighting for and grappling with in our democracy, 1191 01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:14,120 Speaker 1: in our republic is this dance between the eye and 1192 01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:16,920 Speaker 1: the wei and America and my mind is so unique 1193 01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:21,320 Speaker 1: because it's it's it's the most radical historical experiment to 1194 01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:23,960 Speaker 1: say that the we doesn't have to be a monolith. 1195 01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:29,320 Speaker 1: The common element of our we is that we actually 1196 01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:32,680 Speaker 1: are a lot of eyes, but that we believe in 1197 01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:35,760 Speaker 1: that we fight for our abilities to each be an eye, 1198 01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:38,440 Speaker 1: and that is what makes us a we that's different 1199 01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:42,640 Speaker 1: than any other country in the world. That's incredible. I'm 1200 01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:47,040 Speaker 1: curious because that's a that's a big, big thought, and 1201 01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:50,680 Speaker 1: I think that you've phrased it perfectly, and for some reason, 1202 01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:52,920 Speaker 1: I still have the image of two strangers talking on 1203 01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:57,200 Speaker 1: a train, maybe because it's such a an enormous idea 1204 01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:59,400 Speaker 1: that you're talking about. And then and then I think 1205 01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:02,360 Speaker 1: about the little eyes and I think about the truth 1206 01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:05,400 Speaker 1: of how easy it can be to share deeply with 1207 01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:08,560 Speaker 1: someone who maybe you'll never speak to again, and maybe 1208 01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:12,040 Speaker 1: sometimes easier than in the conflict within your own house 1209 01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:17,320 Speaker 1: or family or friendships. Why do you think that face time, 1210 01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:23,120 Speaker 1: sitting face to face with someone is so special? Why 1211 01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:27,120 Speaker 1: is that so transformative? Why is that so necessary for us? 1212 01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:29,520 Speaker 1: Because we're all on these things on our phones all 1213 01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:32,640 Speaker 1: the time, but they don't make us feel any closer 1214 01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:35,320 Speaker 1: to people. So what is it about being face to face? 1215 01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:40,560 Speaker 1: I mean, being face to face is complicated in part 1216 01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:43,640 Speaker 1: because it's generative. You say something to me, and I 1217 01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:45,320 Speaker 1: have to figure out right now what I want to 1218 01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:47,640 Speaker 1: say back. You say something to me, and I have 1219 01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:49,320 Speaker 1: to think about what my answer is. And if I 1220 01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:52,480 Speaker 1: pause on like a text message, unlike an email, when 1221 01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:54,520 Speaker 1: I want to think about like my best comeback or 1222 01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:56,840 Speaker 1: the proper way to say something. If I pause, you 1223 01:06:56,840 --> 01:06:59,080 Speaker 1: can actually watch and read my expressions and see what 1224 01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:02,360 Speaker 1: I'm actually feeling. Being in person is actually deeply vulnerable, 1225 01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:07,600 Speaker 1: and we are losing the practice of that vulnerability by 1226 01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:11,280 Speaker 1: being able to do so much of our communication asynchronistic 1227 01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:13,440 Speaker 1: Lee meaning at a different time you text me, I 1228 01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:15,880 Speaker 1: can decide when I want to respond you Instagram me, 1229 01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:17,880 Speaker 1: I can decide when I want to respond, if I 1230 01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:19,480 Speaker 1: want to acknowledge if I can see it or not 1231 01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:20,920 Speaker 1: if I've seen it, But you don't know if I've 1232 01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:24,040 Speaker 1: seen it. Right, there's all these gradations that these engineers 1233 01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:27,160 Speaker 1: have basically baked into the user design and being face 1234 01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:29,920 Speaker 1: to face. Yet the reason why it's so powerful in 1235 01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:34,040 Speaker 1: particularly in terms of intimacy is because but also in 1236 01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:36,880 Speaker 1: terms of in terms of power, is like we can 1237 01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:41,320 Speaker 1: create something together through our conversation, through our ideas, through 1238 01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:45,360 Speaker 1: what we're talking about that is actually almost impossible to 1239 01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:48,360 Speaker 1: do in other mediums. So if you do it inversely, 1240 01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:50,400 Speaker 1: like I work with a lot of companies and organizations 1241 01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:52,160 Speaker 1: and they always say like, oh my gosh, we meet 1242 01:07:52,160 --> 01:07:53,960 Speaker 1: all the time. You want us to gather more, and 1243 01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:55,480 Speaker 1: I say no, no, no, no no, I want you 1244 01:07:55,520 --> 01:07:59,000 Speaker 1: to gather better. And gathering better usually means gathering less, 1245 01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:02,560 Speaker 1: and it means increasing the stakes for what is worthy 1246 01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:04,920 Speaker 1: for an in person meeting. And you know what's worthy 1247 01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:08,960 Speaker 1: for an in person meeting either a doing something that's generative, 1248 01:08:09,080 --> 01:08:11,760 Speaker 1: meaning you can't do it over email. It's too complicated 1249 01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:14,800 Speaker 1: to talk about over email over text message, like we 1250 01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:17,240 Speaker 1: actually need to build and sort through a complicated thing 1251 01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:20,200 Speaker 1: together that requires us to be in person or you're 1252 01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:23,800 Speaker 1: making a decision and otherwise you shouldn't meet put it 1253 01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:27,639 Speaker 1: in an email. In person time is sacred, and we've 1254 01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:33,080 Speaker 1: made it banal. So when online gatherings, online interaction is 1255 01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:35,799 Speaker 1: so interesting. Right at this, at this, I can swipe 1256 01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:37,920 Speaker 1: through and I feel like I'm in Christy Teagan's living room. 1257 01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:39,559 Speaker 1: Right I can swipe through, and I can see what 1258 01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:42,040 Speaker 1: Donald Trump is thinking. I can swipe through, and literally 1259 01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:44,160 Speaker 1: anybody in the world, I can all I can. I'm 1260 01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:49,599 Speaker 1: literally in their bathroom. It actually deeply increases the stakes 1261 01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:51,880 Speaker 1: that when I'm in person, not how do you be 1262 01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:54,439 Speaker 1: more interesting or how do you be more provocative? But 1263 01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:58,559 Speaker 1: how do I actually not just be an avatar or 1264 01:08:58,640 --> 01:09:00,920 Speaker 1: a version of myself that trying to show to you, 1265 01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:04,080 Speaker 1: but what's actually going on here? Do you think maybe 1266 01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:08,040 Speaker 1: that's why we've seen such a booming increase in conference culture, 1267 01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:14,080 Speaker 1: because conferences. When I started going to conferences, there were like, yeah, 1268 01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:16,720 Speaker 1: they want a thing. They weren't a thing. People thought 1269 01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:20,879 Speaker 1: it was weird. And now every weekend there's a conference somewhere. 1270 01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:24,880 Speaker 1: Do you think that it's because we're craving in person 1271 01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:30,920 Speaker 1: experience and learning and thought provoking chatter. Absolutely, I mean 1272 01:09:30,920 --> 01:09:33,160 Speaker 1: I think it's it's it's a number of different things. 1273 01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:35,120 Speaker 1: I think we are longing to be with each other 1274 01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:38,040 Speaker 1: in more meaningful ways. Um. I think that there are 1275 01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:41,559 Speaker 1: groups of our generation who's who's taking that to a 1276 01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:43,840 Speaker 1: different level. Like the dinner party is a group of 1277 01:09:44,120 --> 01:09:46,680 Speaker 1: twenty and thirty somethings who have figured out that there 1278 01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:48,439 Speaker 1: aren't a lot of places where you can actually talk 1279 01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:51,320 Speaker 1: about grief and loss, and so there's these these communities 1280 01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:53,719 Speaker 1: and gatherings we can actually talk about very specific things. 1281 01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:56,400 Speaker 1: But I also think conferences on the rise and part 1282 01:09:56,439 --> 01:09:59,840 Speaker 1: because unfortunately, I think people read less, right, Like you 1283 01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:02,439 Speaker 1: used to learn about stuff by reading a book, and 1284 01:10:02,479 --> 01:10:04,320 Speaker 1: now you want to go and sit to a panel 1285 01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:06,000 Speaker 1: and just tell people, you know, hear what people have 1286 01:10:06,080 --> 01:10:14,320 Speaker 1: to say. Ideas, conferences are are lazy man's way of reading, right, Like, 1287 01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:16,800 Speaker 1: on one hand, it's a way to come together and 1288 01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:18,920 Speaker 1: be together, but on the other hand, it's also because 1289 01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:22,400 Speaker 1: in an age where we're actually reading less because we're busier, 1290 01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:26,520 Speaker 1: our work cultures is extremely dominating, we're also more distracted 1291 01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:29,599 Speaker 1: coming together and actually take putting our phones away and 1292 01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:32,160 Speaker 1: being in person together is also a way of actually 1293 01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:35,080 Speaker 1: focusing for on something for more than five minutes. But 1294 01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:38,479 Speaker 1: you know, in brands and companies are doing this, people 1295 01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:44,120 Speaker 1: realize they're also creating craving relationship and experience, and to 1296 01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:49,880 Speaker 1: do that in person can be powerful. That's really interesting. 1297 01:10:50,360 --> 01:10:54,439 Speaker 1: Do you have advice if if people listening are planning 1298 01:10:54,439 --> 01:10:58,599 Speaker 1: to go to a conference, if they want to experience that, 1299 01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:01,240 Speaker 1: is there something they should be looking for maybe a 1300 01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:03,960 Speaker 1: little deeper than just who speaking? What? What should they 1301 01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:05,679 Speaker 1: really be looking at when they look at a line 1302 01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:09,800 Speaker 1: up and figuring out where to invest their very valuable time. 1303 01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:13,320 Speaker 1: I mean, at the deepest level. I think the question 1304 01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:16,479 Speaker 1: beyond like how do I navigate a conference? Like the 1305 01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:20,240 Speaker 1: question behind that is like how do I spend my time? Right? 1306 01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:23,519 Speaker 1: A conference is just one version of that. And I 1307 01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:25,400 Speaker 1: think one of the most powerful questions to answer that 1308 01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:28,920 Speaker 1: is what is the biggest need in the world that 1309 01:11:29,040 --> 01:11:33,120 Speaker 1: you might have the passion and capacity to address? What 1310 01:11:33,320 --> 01:11:36,040 Speaker 1: is what do you see in the world that angers you, 1311 01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:39,280 Speaker 1: that that that makes you interested. When you read a newspaper, 1312 01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:41,559 Speaker 1: what are the articles that you read actually all the 1313 01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:43,080 Speaker 1: way to the end and what like make your eyes 1314 01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:45,840 Speaker 1: glaze over, like pay attention to that. What are the 1315 01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:48,600 Speaker 1: and then and then on the flip side of that, internally, 1316 01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:51,400 Speaker 1: what are what are you passionate about? And what makes 1317 01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:53,439 Speaker 1: you angry? What do you have a capacity? What do 1318 01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:55,640 Speaker 1: you have energy to do? What are your skills? And 1319 01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:58,000 Speaker 1: to navigate between those two things, what's a real need 1320 01:11:58,040 --> 01:11:59,880 Speaker 1: in the world. So you're not just naval gazing and 1321 01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:01,920 Speaker 1: thinking like, oh, I'm interested in all these things, but 1322 01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:04,320 Speaker 1: not actually going out and colliding with the world, But 1323 01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:06,439 Speaker 1: also how do I actually do this in a way 1324 01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:08,439 Speaker 1: that is that I'm interacting with things that make me 1325 01:12:08,520 --> 01:12:11,200 Speaker 1: come alive. When you're looking at a conference schedule, to 1326 01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:13,160 Speaker 1: look at it and look over it and say like, 1327 01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:16,719 Speaker 1: which of these um which of these topics either address 1328 01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:19,400 Speaker 1: and need in the world that is interesting to me 1329 01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:21,600 Speaker 1: or that I would like to actually address or be 1330 01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:25,160 Speaker 1: part of the solution, or which of these addressed to 1331 01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:28,439 Speaker 1: either one of my passions or my capacity that I 1332 01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:31,599 Speaker 1: would like to actually improve or experience. But I think 1333 01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:34,000 Speaker 1: the other thing is conferences. You know the host is 1334 01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:36,400 Speaker 1: going to program whatever they're going to program, but you 1335 01:12:36,439 --> 01:12:38,519 Speaker 1: have an opportunity of what is the question you ask 1336 01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:40,320 Speaker 1: people when you're in the hallway, what is a question 1337 01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:41,840 Speaker 1: that when you're up at the coffee table, or you're 1338 01:12:41,880 --> 01:12:44,040 Speaker 1: sitting at a lunch group, or you're you know, finding 1339 01:12:44,040 --> 01:12:46,439 Speaker 1: a random group at dinner, like, how do you actually 1340 01:12:46,479 --> 01:12:49,600 Speaker 1: have meaningful conversation? Um? How do you in a you know, 1341 01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:52,120 Speaker 1: a group of eight people go together? Conferences do this 1342 01:12:52,160 --> 01:12:53,720 Speaker 1: all the time. You go out to go out to 1343 01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:56,160 Speaker 1: a local restaurant and find a group of eight And 1344 01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:58,320 Speaker 1: it goes back to this authority and intimacy thing. If 1345 01:12:58,320 --> 01:13:01,200 Speaker 1: there's not instruction at some level around how do you 1346 01:13:01,240 --> 01:13:04,400 Speaker 1: actually want to host this conversation? A group has to 1347 01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:07,519 Speaker 1: figure it out, and too many groups basically you know 1348 01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:09,400 Speaker 1: your you come together for a conference, you have a 1349 01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:11,840 Speaker 1: share and interest group of eight and everybody just sits 1350 01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:14,559 Speaker 1: and talks to the person next to them. Right, what 1351 01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:16,519 Speaker 1: if it? And it takes a risk, It takes some 1352 01:13:16,600 --> 01:13:19,120 Speaker 1: guts in the courage to say, Hey, why I what 1353 01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:21,280 Speaker 1: what if we all talk about like the moment that 1354 01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:23,559 Speaker 1: we find ourselves in or what if I'd love to 1355 01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:26,320 Speaker 1: hear like what I'd love to hear? Like what does 1356 01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:28,320 Speaker 1: the fear you have at this moment of your career? 1357 01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:31,240 Speaker 1: Or I'd love to hear about like what's a transition 1358 01:13:31,280 --> 01:13:34,200 Speaker 1: that you're at, or and again like saying something that's 1359 01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:36,519 Speaker 1: vulnerable oneself, like I'm at a moment of transition and 1360 01:13:36,520 --> 01:13:38,200 Speaker 1: when I'm really trying to figure out like what do 1361 01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:41,200 Speaker 1: I like what are my core values? Or I lost 1362 01:13:41,200 --> 01:13:43,080 Speaker 1: my job and I'm realizing, like what is it that 1363 01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:45,080 Speaker 1: I actual what is my identity apart from my job? 1364 01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:47,960 Speaker 1: You know, what would you all say? So finding a 1365 01:13:48,040 --> 01:13:50,040 Speaker 1: question that's relevant to you and having the courage to 1366 01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:53,000 Speaker 1: ask a group, to focus the group on having a 1367 01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:56,000 Speaker 1: meaningful conversation and guests, you know, this is called the 1368 01:13:56,040 --> 01:13:57,879 Speaker 1: art of gathering. It's not called the art of hosting, 1369 01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:01,160 Speaker 1: because I believe guests have a lot of power. You 1370 01:14:01,200 --> 01:14:03,120 Speaker 1: have a lot of power to shape a conversation. You 1371 01:14:03,160 --> 01:14:05,080 Speaker 1: have a lot of power to ding your glass and say, hey, 1372 01:14:05,120 --> 01:14:07,080 Speaker 1: how would you guys, Hey what do you think about 1373 01:14:07,120 --> 01:14:11,000 Speaker 1: if we talk about this? But it's it takes interruption, 1374 01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:13,559 Speaker 1: it takes a moment of courage. But then afterwards people 1375 01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:16,360 Speaker 1: are so grateful to actually have had a meaningful conversation. 1376 01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:21,759 Speaker 1: That's so cool. So you sort of answering my next question, 1377 01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:26,400 Speaker 1: which was what are ways that everyone listening at home 1378 01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:29,800 Speaker 1: can start making some changes big or small in the 1379 01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:32,599 Speaker 1: gatherings that they have, whether it's around their dinner table 1380 01:14:32,640 --> 01:14:37,599 Speaker 1: with their family or the next group meal or hang 1381 01:14:37,720 --> 01:14:41,040 Speaker 1: that they're attending. I'm I'm curious, is it planning a 1382 01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:43,759 Speaker 1: dinner or planning a work lench? Where do you suggest 1383 01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:48,280 Speaker 1: people start? So first start by asking every single time, 1384 01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:52,120 Speaker 1: why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? 1385 01:14:52,240 --> 01:14:54,080 Speaker 1: What is the purpose of this gathering? What is the 1386 01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:57,719 Speaker 1: purpose of this dinner party? What is the purpose of brunch? 1387 01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:03,639 Speaker 1: Because then asks like who am I inviting? So is there? 1388 01:15:03,680 --> 01:15:05,880 Speaker 1: I had a friend who wanted to quit her job, 1389 01:15:06,120 --> 01:15:08,000 Speaker 1: and she was at a job where most of her 1390 01:15:08,040 --> 01:15:10,760 Speaker 1: peers because it was a really intense job, were from 1391 01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:12,640 Speaker 1: her office, and there's a lot there's a culture to 1392 01:15:12,680 --> 01:15:14,639 Speaker 1: not leave. And every time you're about to leave, they 1393 01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:16,320 Speaker 1: threw more money at you. They threw more you know 1394 01:15:16,400 --> 01:15:18,360 Speaker 1: that you get a raise like they are, they're experts 1395 01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:21,360 Speaker 1: at having you stay in this system. Most law firms 1396 01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:23,519 Speaker 1: are like this, Most consulting firms are like this. And 1397 01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:26,360 Speaker 1: she decided that for that year she would host a gathering. 1398 01:15:26,479 --> 01:15:27,479 Speaker 1: Was towards the end of the year, and it was 1399 01:15:27,520 --> 01:15:29,920 Speaker 1: kind of like her holiday party as she thought about it, 1400 01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:31,719 Speaker 1: but she said, the biggest need I have right now 1401 01:15:32,040 --> 01:15:33,720 Speaker 1: is to find the people in my life who make 1402 01:15:33,760 --> 01:15:37,120 Speaker 1: courageous decisions and surround myself with them so that they 1403 01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:40,040 Speaker 1: hold me an account to leaving this damn job. And 1404 01:15:40,120 --> 01:15:44,040 Speaker 1: so she she her need was an injection of courage. 1405 01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:47,200 Speaker 1: And so that year she didn't say, like what do 1406 01:15:47,200 --> 01:15:49,160 Speaker 1: I want to start with the questions what are I 1407 01:15:49,200 --> 01:15:50,639 Speaker 1: want to serve or who do I want to invite? 1408 01:15:50,680 --> 01:15:52,280 Speaker 1: She started with a question, what is the purpose of 1409 01:15:52,280 --> 01:15:54,479 Speaker 1: this thing? What is the need in my life right now? 1410 01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:57,559 Speaker 1: And so she invited eight friends, eight people in her life. 1411 01:15:57,560 --> 01:15:59,439 Speaker 1: They didn't all know each other, and the invitation we 1412 01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:01,479 Speaker 1: all got. The how I knew about it was your 1413 01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:06,240 Speaker 1: people who have always made courageous decisions, despite what people 1414 01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:09,000 Speaker 1: around you said. I admire the way you make decisions. 1415 01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:11,040 Speaker 1: And I'm struggling with the decision I'm trying to make. 1416 01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:12,639 Speaker 1: I really want to quit my job and I feel 1417 01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:14,840 Speaker 1: so addicted to it, and I'm scared to leave, and 1418 01:16:14,880 --> 01:16:17,000 Speaker 1: I want you to hold me to account. Could you 1419 01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:19,400 Speaker 1: come to my house this year, from my from my 1420 01:16:19,479 --> 01:16:23,560 Speaker 1: party and bring one piece of inspirational and piece of wisdom, 1421 01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:26,760 Speaker 1: so that within six months I leave this job. And 1422 01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:29,320 Speaker 1: that was a beautiful way, like she created, meaning she 1423 01:16:29,400 --> 01:16:31,479 Speaker 1: honored all of us. But she's also winking and she's 1424 01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:35,880 Speaker 1: saying like courage is contagious, but also fear is contagious. 1425 01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:38,080 Speaker 1: She did not invite the people in her life. Is saying, 1426 01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:39,599 Speaker 1: are you sure you didn't want to lose that leave 1427 01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:41,960 Speaker 1: that job? Are you sure you just want to you know, 1428 01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:45,320 Speaker 1: you just stay one more year? And and part of 1429 01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:48,519 Speaker 1: part of like, so for any gathering, ask first what 1430 01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:50,880 Speaker 1: is the purpose? What is the need? And then ask 1431 01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:54,960 Speaker 1: like is that purpose specific enough? Is that purpose disputable enough? 1432 01:16:54,960 --> 01:16:57,160 Speaker 1: You're having a pool party. It's a pool party have 1433 01:16:57,200 --> 01:16:59,320 Speaker 1: every year, and say like, okay, why are we having 1434 01:16:59,320 --> 01:17:01,000 Speaker 1: this pool party? It's like, I don't know, just because 1435 01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:02,880 Speaker 1: like the supple party is fun. It's like okay, but 1436 01:17:02,880 --> 01:17:05,280 Speaker 1: we're really dig a little deeper. Why do you have it? Well? 1437 01:17:05,640 --> 01:17:07,519 Speaker 1: I guess it's to sort of like mark the coming 1438 01:17:07,560 --> 01:17:09,639 Speaker 1: of summer. Well, why do you always invite your neighbors 1439 01:17:09,640 --> 01:17:11,160 Speaker 1: every year? And I was like, you really dig metal. 1440 01:17:11,320 --> 01:17:13,879 Speaker 1: I guess it's because I want to show my children 1441 01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:17,080 Speaker 1: that strangers aren't scary. I want to create a neighborhood 1442 01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:20,679 Speaker 1: that like mimics what I grew up in. Like, that's 1443 01:17:20,680 --> 01:17:23,240 Speaker 1: an interesting reason. The rest of the Gavin can look 1444 01:17:23,280 --> 01:17:25,400 Speaker 1: exactly the same. But all of a sudden, underneath you 1445 01:17:25,439 --> 01:17:28,160 Speaker 1: say that in an invitation, and people feel you've you 1446 01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:31,200 Speaker 1: haven't changed the activity, but you've changed the meaning of it, 1447 01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:34,080 Speaker 1: and you've invited every person in the neighborhood to come 1448 01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:37,880 Speaker 1: to say, are you also up for for for for 1449 01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:40,000 Speaker 1: creating a neighborhood in which we show our children and 1450 01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:45,120 Speaker 1: each other that strangers aren't scary. So it's not rocket science, 1451 01:17:45,160 --> 01:17:48,320 Speaker 1: and it's not ice luges and fireworks. It's basically like 1452 01:17:48,439 --> 01:17:52,639 Speaker 1: meeting comes from an actual, authentic need that you invite 1453 01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:55,160 Speaker 1: others to either share with you or help you solve. 1454 01:17:55,760 --> 01:17:57,800 Speaker 1: I love that, And you really just have to sit 1455 01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:00,920 Speaker 1: with yourself for a moment and ask yourself the underneath, 1456 01:18:01,040 --> 01:18:06,200 Speaker 1: correct the instinct, correct that is exactly right. So it's 1457 01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:10,120 Speaker 1: not saying spend more time. It's often as a practice, 1458 01:18:10,360 --> 01:18:13,519 Speaker 1: once you become conscious about it's actually less time because 1459 01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:16,639 Speaker 1: you spend less time worrying about the logistics. Right, So 1460 01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:19,800 Speaker 1: you know, there's this Martha Stewart party planning guide that's 1461 01:18:19,800 --> 01:18:22,200 Speaker 1: like twenty seven steps to practice the perfect party, and 1462 01:18:22,240 --> 01:18:24,680 Speaker 1: twenty four of the seven of them is about the 1463 01:18:24,680 --> 01:18:28,439 Speaker 1: preparation of stuff, like prepare the crew detais prepared three 1464 01:18:28,520 --> 01:18:30,840 Speaker 1: days before, two days before. You chop the credatas and 1465 01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:32,840 Speaker 1: put them in the put them in the like the 1466 01:18:33,479 --> 01:18:35,519 Speaker 1: fresher and the fridge so that they say crisp and 1467 01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:39,040 Speaker 1: take them out, like all of these old archetypal ways 1468 01:18:39,040 --> 01:18:43,120 Speaker 1: of hosting. Was this was this assumption that to care 1469 01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:45,840 Speaker 1: for people, spend a lot of time on the preparation 1470 01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:50,040 Speaker 1: of things, the mastery of the shaping of things. And 1471 01:18:50,200 --> 01:18:54,000 Speaker 1: in this new generation where first of all, women are 1472 01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:57,160 Speaker 1: playing roles out in the working world, people are don't 1473 01:18:57,160 --> 01:18:58,920 Speaker 1: have time to do stuff like this, but still want 1474 01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:02,960 Speaker 1: meaningful connection and newful gathering. It's actually saying, still spend 1475 01:19:03,000 --> 01:19:05,320 Speaker 1: time and care. But the deepest way to actually spend 1476 01:19:05,320 --> 01:19:07,840 Speaker 1: time and care so just first ask what is the 1477 01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:11,000 Speaker 1: need in my life that by bringing together another group 1478 01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:13,800 Speaker 1: of specific people for a specific moment in time, we 1479 01:19:13,800 --> 01:19:17,120 Speaker 1: could actually address. And part of meaningful connection is to 1480 01:19:17,120 --> 01:19:19,400 Speaker 1: actually say, hey, this is actually a real need in 1481 01:19:19,400 --> 01:19:22,080 Speaker 1: my life. Maybe you share it too. We live in 1482 01:19:22,120 --> 01:19:24,679 Speaker 1: a time also because one of the things I found 1483 01:19:24,680 --> 01:19:27,240 Speaker 1: in a lot of my research was that rituals are 1484 01:19:27,240 --> 01:19:30,920 Speaker 1: powerful when they're when they're specific. But powerful rituals come 1485 01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:36,320 Speaker 1: from specific sub communities. So like Javanese tooth filing ceremonies 1486 01:19:36,479 --> 01:19:40,599 Speaker 1: or two million Raminical red thread time tying ceremonies, where 1487 01:19:40,600 --> 01:19:42,599 Speaker 1: there's like a very specific ritual you like literally like 1488 01:19:42,640 --> 01:19:44,559 Speaker 1: file a tooth as like a rite of passage, you 1489 01:19:44,600 --> 01:19:46,960 Speaker 1: get red thread tied around your wrist. Why did that 1490 01:19:47,040 --> 01:19:49,479 Speaker 1: work Because everybody in the room believe the same thing, 1491 01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:52,040 Speaker 1: understood what the red thread meant, believe in the same god, 1492 01:19:52,080 --> 01:19:54,360 Speaker 1: ain't the same thing, avoided the same meat, and so 1493 01:19:54,439 --> 01:19:57,519 Speaker 1: it worked as a ritual because you were a monolithic group. 1494 01:19:58,280 --> 01:20:00,400 Speaker 1: As we're becoming more diverse a good thing. As we're 1495 01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:02,680 Speaker 1: becoming as we have different roles to play a good thing, 1496 01:20:03,240 --> 01:20:05,320 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, trying not to offend each other, 1497 01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:10,040 Speaker 1: our gatherings have become deluded. We've lost our rituals because 1498 01:20:10,080 --> 01:20:14,360 Speaker 1: specific rituals come from specific subcultures. And so the opportunity 1499 01:20:14,439 --> 01:20:16,519 Speaker 1: that we now have in our modern world is to 1500 01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:20,240 Speaker 1: invent modern rituals where people don't have to be the 1501 01:20:20,280 --> 01:20:22,960 Speaker 1: same or believe the same things, but can come together 1502 01:20:23,040 --> 01:20:28,439 Speaker 1: for specific, specific moment in time and meaningfully connect around 1503 01:20:28,520 --> 01:20:31,240 Speaker 1: new ways of being. Yes, there was a summer and 1504 01:20:31,280 --> 01:20:33,200 Speaker 1: I'm trying to get back to doing it. But there 1505 01:20:33,320 --> 01:20:35,479 Speaker 1: was a summer where I managed to be home for 1506 01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:38,680 Speaker 1: two and a half straight months, which hasn't happened to 1507 01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:42,760 Speaker 1: me in years. And every Friday we would host a 1508 01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:46,760 Speaker 1: Shabat dinner at my house. But the whole point, because 1509 01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:48,880 Speaker 1: I grew up in a multi faith family and so 1510 01:20:48,920 --> 01:20:51,479 Speaker 1: many people who I noted, was that it was a 1511 01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:56,760 Speaker 1: nondenominational Shabbat. So every Friday someone I would always ask 1512 01:20:56,840 --> 01:20:59,920 Speaker 1: someone to speak, and whether it was a friend act 1513 01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:02,160 Speaker 1: actually reading from the Terra, or a friend who's a 1514 01:21:02,160 --> 01:21:05,840 Speaker 1: meditation coach leading everyone through a breath exercise, my friend 1515 01:21:06,200 --> 01:21:08,760 Speaker 1: you know who is an incredible Syrian academic reading from 1516 01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:12,479 Speaker 1: the Koran. Whatever anyone wanted to show up with. It 1517 01:21:12,479 --> 01:21:16,160 Speaker 1: could be a poem, it could be scripture. Show up 1518 01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:19,960 Speaker 1: an offer something that feels sacred to you to this 1519 01:21:20,120 --> 01:21:22,800 Speaker 1: group and that gives you the jumping off point for 1520 01:21:22,840 --> 01:21:25,680 Speaker 1: this experience. On a Friday night, and same thing, it 1521 01:21:25,720 --> 01:21:28,479 Speaker 1: was like, everybody put your phones away, we're hanging out 1522 01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:30,920 Speaker 1: and and it wasn't really about the stuff it was 1523 01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:33,840 Speaker 1: it was always a potluck because that way, if ten 1524 01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:36,040 Speaker 1: people are thirty people showed up, we'd have enough food. 1525 01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:40,920 Speaker 1: And it was really special. And it's something that I 1526 01:21:41,040 --> 01:21:45,880 Speaker 1: miss and that I'm working on reinstituting in in my life. 1527 01:21:45,920 --> 01:21:48,879 Speaker 1: And it to your point, it's a way for everyone 1528 01:21:48,960 --> 01:21:53,519 Speaker 1: to belong in a system, in an old system, in 1529 01:21:53,560 --> 01:21:56,240 Speaker 1: a new way. And I love the question that you ask, 1530 01:21:56,400 --> 01:21:58,559 Speaker 1: and I think if you're listeners, you don't need to 1531 01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:02,639 Speaker 1: know a Syrian academic to to do this. The question 1532 01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:05,280 Speaker 1: you ask is bring something that is sacred to you 1533 01:22:05,920 --> 01:22:08,759 Speaker 1: to me. That's a deeply modern question. It's a brilliant 1534 01:22:08,840 --> 01:22:14,439 Speaker 1: question because you're actually sharing and allowing people to have 1535 01:22:14,479 --> 01:22:18,000 Speaker 1: different definitions of the sacred. But the line that you're 1536 01:22:18,080 --> 01:22:21,960 Speaker 1: drawing is that an assumption that something is sacred to you. 1537 01:22:23,160 --> 01:22:27,280 Speaker 1: That's a beautiful example of reimagining questions that allow us 1538 01:22:27,280 --> 01:22:31,320 Speaker 1: to gather meaningfully without having to be the same Yes. Yeah, 1539 01:22:31,360 --> 01:22:33,680 Speaker 1: and then no nihilistic person who thinks the world is 1540 01:22:33,720 --> 01:22:36,640 Speaker 1: garbage is coming to that dinner. So again there is 1541 01:22:36,680 --> 01:22:40,040 Speaker 1: exclusion based on purpose. There is one thing that I 1542 01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:41,680 Speaker 1: really want to touch on because I just think that 1543 01:22:41,720 --> 01:22:47,719 Speaker 1: it's amazing you helped with this sustained dialogue campus network 1544 01:22:48,320 --> 01:22:50,559 Speaker 1: and I just think you're doing research. Yeah, I just 1545 01:22:50,600 --> 01:22:53,960 Speaker 1: think it's such a cool thing. And before we wrap up, 1546 01:22:54,000 --> 01:22:56,400 Speaker 1: I I want to talk about it because I think 1547 01:22:56,400 --> 01:22:59,639 Speaker 1: that it's something that college students who are listening would 1548 01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:02,920 Speaker 1: love to know about. So can you walk us through that? Um, 1549 01:23:03,040 --> 01:23:06,400 Speaker 1: So you know, I'm I'm by racial I almost twenty 1550 01:23:06,479 --> 01:23:08,960 Speaker 1: years ago I went to the University of Virginia and 1551 01:23:09,040 --> 01:23:11,800 Speaker 1: the first question that I would be asked was what 1552 01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:15,599 Speaker 1: are you? And I actually literally didn't understand the question 1553 01:23:15,600 --> 01:23:18,200 Speaker 1: I meant. I was the first year I you know, 1554 01:23:18,200 --> 01:23:20,120 Speaker 1: people didn't say, like what are you studying? What dormy 1555 01:23:20,160 --> 01:23:22,400 Speaker 1: living like? I was often a first question, and what 1556 01:23:22,439 --> 01:23:24,800 Speaker 1: it meant was like what race are you? And I 1557 01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:27,640 Speaker 1: found out a very bizarre question. I found it an 1558 01:23:27,680 --> 01:23:30,320 Speaker 1: upsetting question, but I also realized that this was a 1559 01:23:30,400 --> 01:23:33,080 Speaker 1: kind of question like any in any context. You go 1560 01:23:33,120 --> 01:23:35,760 Speaker 1: in the first question of the second question people ask 1561 01:23:35,840 --> 01:23:39,240 Speaker 1: you is a signal to what matters there. Could be 1562 01:23:39,439 --> 01:23:41,960 Speaker 1: you could be completely disagree with what matters there, but 1563 01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:44,280 Speaker 1: it's a signal of what matters there. Right, So you 1564 01:23:44,320 --> 01:23:47,120 Speaker 1: asked one of the often European friends or colleagues will say, like, 1565 01:23:47,160 --> 01:23:49,799 Speaker 1: I think it's so ghost that the first question Americans 1566 01:23:49,840 --> 01:23:52,040 Speaker 1: ask you is like what do you do right? And 1567 01:23:52,200 --> 01:23:54,320 Speaker 1: it's just like it's a cultural tick that signals what 1568 01:23:54,400 --> 01:23:57,439 Speaker 1: matters here, in part because what we do is actually 1569 01:23:57,479 --> 01:24:01,120 Speaker 1: often decided based on what interests are right. It's also 1570 01:24:01,160 --> 01:24:03,439 Speaker 1: a different conception of work. It doesn't actually mean how 1571 01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:05,320 Speaker 1: much money do you make, which is actually what it 1572 01:24:05,360 --> 01:24:09,280 Speaker 1: often means in more traditional societies. But anyway, I digress. 1573 01:24:09,600 --> 01:24:11,720 Speaker 1: So at u v A, I was frustrated by this 1574 01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:15,679 Speaker 1: question and I was interested in it, and I started 1575 01:24:15,720 --> 01:24:18,959 Speaker 1: taking classes on race. I started I got a fellowship 1576 01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:21,400 Speaker 1: to study the history of race and gender at UVA, 1577 01:24:22,200 --> 01:24:25,439 Speaker 1: and I ran into two students chantel Phoebig and um 1578 01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:28,040 Speaker 1: Neil and Parker, who were older, and they said to me, Pa, 1579 01:24:28,120 --> 01:24:31,000 Speaker 1: if you have a problem UVA is about student self governance, 1580 01:24:31,200 --> 01:24:34,960 Speaker 1: do something about it. And I thought, I'm a, I'm 1581 01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:36,760 Speaker 1: a first year, Like I can't do something about I 1582 01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:38,680 Speaker 1: don't even understand this place. And they're like no, no no, no, 1583 01:24:38,680 --> 01:24:42,240 Speaker 1: no no, Like fresh eyes are actually really really important 1584 01:24:42,280 --> 01:24:44,559 Speaker 1: because you haven't yet drunk the kool a do something 1585 01:24:44,600 --> 01:24:48,120 Speaker 1: about it, and so I I studied what had been 1586 01:24:48,160 --> 01:24:51,080 Speaker 1: done before, and different initiative students had taken and there 1587 01:24:51,160 --> 01:24:54,360 Speaker 1: was this organization called Grounds for Discussion, and I interviewed 1588 01:24:54,360 --> 01:24:56,200 Speaker 1: some of the um some of the students who worked 1589 01:24:56,240 --> 01:24:59,600 Speaker 1: and then they said, we had these amazing dialogues for 1590 01:24:59,640 --> 01:25:02,080 Speaker 1: a night, would open up all these questions and finally 1591 01:25:02,120 --> 01:25:05,480 Speaker 1: really starting talking about race, which has this really problematic 1592 01:25:05,640 --> 01:25:08,960 Speaker 1: history at UV, but it's still really presently problematic. And 1593 01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:11,720 Speaker 1: then everyone would go home and it wouldn't last. And 1594 01:25:11,760 --> 01:25:14,519 Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, that's an interesting insight. And I 1595 01:25:14,720 --> 01:25:17,000 Speaker 1: research and research, and actually through my mother, learned about 1596 01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:20,240 Speaker 1: this process called sustained dialogue, and it was a process 1597 01:25:20,320 --> 01:25:22,880 Speaker 1: that was developed by a man named hel Saunders. He 1598 01:25:22,960 --> 01:25:26,040 Speaker 1: was Kissinger's assistant secretary of State. He he drafted the 1599 01:25:26,080 --> 01:25:29,400 Speaker 1: Camp the Camp David Peace Accords. He literally was part 1600 01:25:29,439 --> 01:25:33,600 Speaker 1: of the team that brokered peace, and he served multiple presidents, 1601 01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:38,559 Speaker 1: multiple presidential administrations, and then at the end of his 1602 01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:43,080 Speaker 1: service he realized that even while he brokered peace between governments, 1603 01:25:43,320 --> 01:25:47,720 Speaker 1: that relationships between citizens didn't necessarily change, like the mistrust 1604 01:25:47,800 --> 01:25:50,960 Speaker 1: was still there, the relationships were still problematic, and so 1605 01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:54,280 Speaker 1: he spent the second half of his professional life basically 1606 01:25:54,320 --> 01:25:56,840 Speaker 1: looking at how do you actually begin to change relationships 1607 01:25:56,920 --> 01:26:00,600 Speaker 1: between citizens on the ground, and he were He co 1608 01:26:00,760 --> 01:26:04,439 Speaker 1: chaired the longest bilateral citizens dialogue during the Cold War 1609 01:26:04,600 --> 01:26:08,080 Speaker 1: between Soviets and Americans. He co chaired it with Eugenie Primacough, 1610 01:26:08,080 --> 01:26:11,920 Speaker 1: who ended up becoming the first Russian Premier. And he 1611 01:26:12,040 --> 01:26:14,680 Speaker 1: basically realized that when groups of people come together and 1612 01:26:14,720 --> 01:26:18,160 Speaker 1: are committed to changing their relationships, not the topics, not 1613 01:26:18,320 --> 01:26:23,040 Speaker 1: discussing the issues, not brokering peace, but actually the underlying relationships, 1614 01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:27,040 Speaker 1: they developed the capacity to then actually imagine new solutions 1615 01:26:27,040 --> 01:26:30,600 Speaker 1: for the country. And he happened to be an alumni. 1616 01:26:31,160 --> 01:26:32,760 Speaker 1: He happened to be on the board of trustees at 1617 01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:37,760 Speaker 1: Princeton University, and he too students approached him, Teddy them 1618 01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:39,760 Speaker 1: Off and David Tuki, and they said, we want to 1619 01:26:40,520 --> 01:26:45,759 Speaker 1: could we try sustain dialogue here? Can we try at Princeton? 1620 01:26:46,120 --> 01:26:48,040 Speaker 1: Is there it? Could we use this process that you've 1621 01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:52,160 Speaker 1: used literally in like Tajikistan and with Soviet citizens like 1622 01:26:52,320 --> 01:26:55,720 Speaker 1: at Princeton, And he said, let's try it. And they 1623 01:26:55,800 --> 01:26:58,960 Speaker 1: ended up writing a like a pamphlet called Diving in 1624 01:26:59,080 --> 01:27:02,559 Speaker 1: about how do you actually create these dialogue groups to 1625 01:27:02,600 --> 01:27:05,759 Speaker 1: see if people could actually have the conversations across difference 1626 01:27:05,800 --> 01:27:09,160 Speaker 1: that usually happened behind closed doors, not with groups, you know, 1627 01:27:09,240 --> 01:27:11,559 Speaker 1: not like black students talk about it and you know 1628 01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:13,880 Speaker 1: one side, White students talk about another, Latinos talking about another. 1629 01:27:13,960 --> 01:27:17,559 Speaker 1: Could we come together consciously and have conversations around race um? 1630 01:27:17,640 --> 01:27:20,919 Speaker 1: And I learned about that process and met House Saunders 1631 01:27:20,920 --> 01:27:22,320 Speaker 1: and said will you bring will you help us bring 1632 01:27:22,360 --> 01:27:25,760 Speaker 1: us to u v A. And a friend of mine, 1633 01:27:25,840 --> 01:27:29,880 Speaker 1: Jacquelin Switzer, and I launched its September two thousand one, 1634 01:27:31,520 --> 01:27:33,439 Speaker 1: and then nine eleven happened the next day. So it's 1635 01:27:33,520 --> 01:27:36,120 Speaker 1: kind of like the right place at the right time. 1636 01:27:36,200 --> 01:27:39,200 Speaker 1: Where again the power of a gathering like launched literally 1637 01:27:39,200 --> 01:27:41,599 Speaker 1: meant we sent a letter out to the community saying, 1638 01:27:42,160 --> 01:27:45,880 Speaker 1: sustained dialogue is happening here right. It was an invitation 1639 01:27:45,960 --> 01:27:48,760 Speaker 1: is this opening salvo was a psychological promise that the 1640 01:27:48,800 --> 01:27:53,680 Speaker 1: space exists? And so because the psychological space existed, it 1641 01:27:53,760 --> 01:27:57,960 Speaker 1: was filled and and and it became this training grounds 1642 01:27:58,000 --> 01:28:00,000 Speaker 1: for me and for many of us to figure out 1643 01:28:00,240 --> 01:28:03,400 Speaker 1: how do you actually create a meaningful safe space across difference? 1644 01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:06,360 Speaker 1: How do you host conversations that allow people to be seen. 1645 01:28:06,720 --> 01:28:09,200 Speaker 1: How much how much facts and data need to be 1646 01:28:09,200 --> 01:28:11,040 Speaker 1: come into a room so it's not biased by just 1647 01:28:11,120 --> 01:28:13,800 Speaker 1: the people's stories in the room. How do you transfer 1648 01:28:13,880 --> 01:28:16,960 Speaker 1: relationships without in a racial context, putting too much weight 1649 01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:19,719 Speaker 1: on the people of color. How do you allow white 1650 01:28:19,720 --> 01:28:22,840 Speaker 1: people to go through a racial journey without having people 1651 01:28:22,840 --> 01:28:24,720 Speaker 1: of color having to be the ones that educate them? 1652 01:28:24,960 --> 01:28:26,840 Speaker 1: But how do you also have people of color be 1653 01:28:26,920 --> 01:28:28,600 Speaker 1: in the room so that they can have empathy and 1654 01:28:28,640 --> 01:28:30,599 Speaker 1: begin to learn what it might be like to actually 1655 01:28:30,640 --> 01:28:32,479 Speaker 1: have grown up in a white house where you actually 1656 01:28:32,520 --> 01:28:34,800 Speaker 1: never told any of the things that actually happened in 1657 01:28:34,800 --> 01:28:37,520 Speaker 1: this country. How do you begin to have the conversations 1658 01:28:37,560 --> 01:28:41,120 Speaker 1: that we usually don't have together across difference and commit 1659 01:28:41,320 --> 01:28:44,400 Speaker 1: to coming together again and again and again. It sustain 1660 01:28:44,439 --> 01:28:47,120 Speaker 1: dialogue on college campuses at least then you meet, you 1661 01:28:47,160 --> 01:28:50,080 Speaker 1: commit to being part of a group two out two 1662 01:28:50,080 --> 01:28:52,120 Speaker 1: to three hours every two weeks for the course of 1663 01:28:52,120 --> 01:28:55,520 Speaker 1: the year with the same group. And it was transformative 1664 01:28:55,560 --> 01:28:57,200 Speaker 1: for me. And it was transformative for me in part 1665 01:28:57,240 --> 01:29:01,599 Speaker 1: because I learned how to actually I'm a facilitator. One 1666 01:29:01,640 --> 01:29:04,120 Speaker 1: of the things we found going back to specific and disputable. 1667 01:29:04,320 --> 01:29:07,040 Speaker 1: Was was the best groups were the ones that actually 1668 01:29:07,120 --> 01:29:10,360 Speaker 1: brought together specific groups. So like the Jewish Arab dialogue 1669 01:29:10,400 --> 01:29:12,679 Speaker 1: at uv A was like a very very powerful one 1670 01:29:12,960 --> 01:29:15,519 Speaker 1: because they had a focus. There was another group that 1671 01:29:15,560 --> 01:29:19,800 Speaker 1: was facilitated between black fraternity life and white fraternity life. 1672 01:29:19,800 --> 01:29:21,840 Speaker 1: It was a very powerful group because there was heat, 1673 01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:24,400 Speaker 1: there there was a there's a there's focus. Some of 1674 01:29:24,439 --> 01:29:26,280 Speaker 1: these dialogue groups would get a little bit vague because 1675 01:29:26,280 --> 01:29:27,960 Speaker 1: as soon as you go into the like the black 1676 01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:31,200 Speaker 1: white line, then like the Latinos of the Indians of 1677 01:29:31,240 --> 01:29:34,040 Speaker 1: the South, Asians be like, oh, there's also us, don't 1678 01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:36,599 Speaker 1: forget us. So so it was this, it was this 1679 01:29:36,680 --> 01:29:38,840 Speaker 1: palette and that if you know, college students are listening. 1680 01:29:38,840 --> 01:29:41,280 Speaker 1: I think whether you do something like sustained dialogue or 1681 01:29:41,280 --> 01:29:44,640 Speaker 1: anything else, college is this wonderful place to ask the 1682 01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:47,840 Speaker 1: question again, what is a need in the world that 1683 01:29:47,960 --> 01:29:49,839 Speaker 1: you might be interested, that you might have the passion 1684 01:29:49,840 --> 01:29:52,720 Speaker 1: and capacity to address and to practice that. Like I 1685 01:29:52,800 --> 01:29:57,920 Speaker 1: became a confort resolution facilitator because I practiced facilitation with 1686 01:29:57,960 --> 01:30:00,400 Speaker 1: my own community on college campus. I didn't need a 1687 01:30:00,479 --> 01:30:02,200 Speaker 1: job to do it. I didn't need to, you know, 1688 01:30:02,320 --> 01:30:03,840 Speaker 1: be a diplomat to do it. I was just I 1689 01:30:03,840 --> 01:30:05,519 Speaker 1: saw a need in my community, and I tried to 1690 01:30:05,560 --> 01:30:08,040 Speaker 1: figure out how can we address this? And college or 1691 01:30:08,080 --> 01:30:09,800 Speaker 1: graduate school or any time where you don't have to 1692 01:30:09,800 --> 01:30:12,000 Speaker 1: figure out how to make money in that moment is 1693 01:30:12,040 --> 01:30:15,360 Speaker 1: a wonderful time to practice being a citizen with those 1694 01:30:15,360 --> 01:30:19,120 Speaker 1: around you. And do you think that it was that 1695 01:30:19,200 --> 01:30:24,120 Speaker 1: sustained dialogue work that helped obviously with the degrees and 1696 01:30:24,200 --> 01:30:27,920 Speaker 1: your master's, But did that help when you went to 1697 01:30:27,960 --> 01:30:31,760 Speaker 1: work on peace processes in India, South Africa, Zambia, the 1698 01:30:31,800 --> 01:30:33,920 Speaker 1: Middle East, and I mean the list obviously goes on. 1699 01:30:34,320 --> 01:30:37,760 Speaker 1: That was all sustained dialogue. So when I graduated, I 1700 01:30:37,800 --> 01:30:40,120 Speaker 1: worked with Houslanders, so he kind of took me as 1701 01:30:40,200 --> 01:30:43,679 Speaker 1: a as a mentor, as a mentee, and when he 1702 01:30:43,720 --> 01:30:48,759 Speaker 1: was facilitating Arab American European dialogues pre Arab Spring with leaders, 1703 01:30:48,800 --> 01:30:50,640 Speaker 1: I was the Rappert tour in the room, right, So 1704 01:30:50,720 --> 01:30:53,280 Speaker 1: I learned for three days, eight hours a day, I 1705 01:30:53,320 --> 01:30:56,160 Speaker 1: would sit and type verbatim notes between Arabic and English 1706 01:30:56,240 --> 01:30:59,120 Speaker 1: translators and I learned to listen. Right. It's like the 1707 01:30:59,160 --> 01:31:01,800 Speaker 1: practice of like following a dialogue over the course of 1708 01:31:01,840 --> 01:31:05,519 Speaker 1: eight hours and transcribing it like I've developed a craft 1709 01:31:05,560 --> 01:31:07,560 Speaker 1: and a mastery of being able to follow language and 1710 01:31:07,640 --> 01:31:10,519 Speaker 1: understand the arc of a conversation. When I lived in 1711 01:31:10,520 --> 01:31:12,760 Speaker 1: India and worked with the Diala Lamas Peace Foundation and 1712 01:31:12,960 --> 01:31:16,400 Speaker 1: worked with college students there who are having regional conflict 1713 01:31:16,439 --> 01:31:20,240 Speaker 1: within dorm life from different parts of India. I worked 1714 01:31:20,240 --> 01:31:22,920 Speaker 1: in Good dropt looking after the riots, looking at could 1715 01:31:23,000 --> 01:31:28,040 Speaker 1: sustain dialogue be a solution after the Muslim pogroms and 1716 01:31:27,120 --> 01:31:30,599 Speaker 1: good and um and learned the limits of dialogue. So 1717 01:31:30,720 --> 01:31:33,919 Speaker 1: when power is deeply imbalanced and the government is actually 1718 01:31:34,160 --> 01:31:37,000 Speaker 1: is returning funds to the central to the central government 1719 01:31:37,000 --> 01:31:40,599 Speaker 1: saying we have no problem here, dialogue is not the answer, right, 1720 01:31:40,680 --> 01:31:44,800 Speaker 1: you actually need power and structural shifts. So but I 1721 01:31:44,840 --> 01:31:47,599 Speaker 1: mean the art of gathering that the DNA underneath it 1722 01:31:47,680 --> 01:31:50,600 Speaker 1: is sustained dialogue and so cool. I can't wait to 1723 01:31:50,640 --> 01:31:54,680 Speaker 1: hear audience feedback because I just know that after this 1724 01:31:54,760 --> 01:31:58,120 Speaker 1: conversation everyone's going to read it. Um. I'll just say 1725 01:31:58,120 --> 01:32:01,719 Speaker 1: one more thing about sustained dialogue was that it took 1726 01:32:01,800 --> 01:32:04,400 Speaker 1: the field of dialogue. Like I say, I'm a conflict 1727 01:32:04,439 --> 01:32:07,400 Speaker 1: resolution facilitator, but I'm actually in the field of group 1728 01:32:07,439 --> 01:32:13,479 Speaker 1: dialogue and and dialogue is a sacred practice and it's 1729 01:32:13,520 --> 01:32:16,439 Speaker 1: something that we can learn to get better at. Like 1730 01:32:16,479 --> 01:32:18,360 Speaker 1: the one of the fathers of the field is a 1731 01:32:18,360 --> 01:32:21,520 Speaker 1: man named Martin Bouber, and he talked about the relationship 1732 01:32:21,560 --> 01:32:25,799 Speaker 1: between I and thou and that human beings have meaningful 1733 01:32:25,840 --> 01:32:28,320 Speaker 1: and powerful connections when we treat ourselves and the other 1734 01:32:28,400 --> 01:32:31,280 Speaker 1: is sacred and and they become banal, and they become 1735 01:32:31,360 --> 01:32:34,120 Speaker 1: dangerous when they move from an eye vowel relationship to 1736 01:32:34,160 --> 01:32:39,120 Speaker 1: an eye it relationship. And so anybody who who practices 1737 01:32:39,200 --> 01:32:41,320 Speaker 1: or goes into sustain dialogue or of these fields of 1738 01:32:41,439 --> 01:32:46,280 Speaker 1: of practicing dialogue and understanding it starts to be to start, like, 1739 01:32:46,320 --> 01:32:48,040 Speaker 1: the reason I wrote this book is because I started 1740 01:32:48,080 --> 01:32:51,679 Speaker 1: becoming agitated by what the rest of our culture tells 1741 01:32:51,760 --> 01:32:56,240 Speaker 1: us about what creates meaningful gatherings. And when we obsess 1742 01:32:56,320 --> 01:32:59,240 Speaker 1: about you know, when we outsource our expertise about gatherings 1743 01:32:59,240 --> 01:33:02,520 Speaker 1: to chefs or to etiquette experts or the lighting experts. 1744 01:33:02,560 --> 01:33:05,760 Speaker 1: Nothing against any of those industries. Those are all masterful 1745 01:33:05,800 --> 01:33:09,120 Speaker 1: crafts in and of themselves, but when they become associated 1746 01:33:09,160 --> 01:33:13,599 Speaker 1: with meaningful gatherings, it becomes deeply dangerous. The meaningful gathering 1747 01:33:13,640 --> 01:33:16,120 Speaker 1: should be one thing, and then the artful setting in 1748 01:33:16,160 --> 01:33:19,799 Speaker 1: which you host it should be an additive other. Correct. 1749 01:33:20,120 --> 01:33:23,200 Speaker 1: It shouldn't be a replacement exactly because I want to 1750 01:33:23,240 --> 01:33:26,040 Speaker 1: have a meaningful gathering in a beautifully light room. Yes, 1751 01:33:26,080 --> 01:33:30,440 Speaker 1: but the lighting doesn't make up for the subject matter exactly, 1752 01:33:30,520 --> 01:33:34,240 Speaker 1: it doesn't. It's not the source of meaning. It's an enabler. 1753 01:33:35,080 --> 01:33:37,400 Speaker 1: And we've we have become a culture that believes that 1754 01:33:37,400 --> 01:33:40,760 Speaker 1: that's the source of meaning. And part of what I'm 1755 01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:43,040 Speaker 1: saying is, don't it's not saying that your place should 1756 01:33:43,040 --> 01:33:44,559 Speaker 1: be ugly. It's not. You know, there's all of those 1757 01:33:44,600 --> 01:33:48,559 Speaker 1: research that's does like aesthetics deeply matter, right, the aesthetics 1758 01:33:48,560 --> 01:33:50,800 Speaker 1: of joy right, Like there's all of these bodies of 1759 01:33:50,800 --> 01:33:53,360 Speaker 1: work now that are saying that the visual matters. And 1760 01:33:53,439 --> 01:33:56,000 Speaker 1: in the book, I talk about density around a table 1761 01:33:56,120 --> 01:33:58,680 Speaker 1: and lighting like almost always turn the lights down, Like 1762 01:33:58,720 --> 01:34:00,439 Speaker 1: if you're trying to have a meaningful conver station, turn 1763 01:34:00,479 --> 01:34:02,280 Speaker 1: the lights down. Like there's certain things that you can do, 1764 01:34:02,680 --> 01:34:05,800 Speaker 1: but that that is actually it's all context setting. Don't 1765 01:34:05,880 --> 01:34:09,240 Speaker 1: stop there. And a lot of our gathering wisdom has 1766 01:34:09,240 --> 01:34:14,600 Speaker 1: basically been shorthand for saying the meaning is the dish. 1767 01:34:14,720 --> 01:34:16,880 Speaker 1: It's like no, no, no, no no. The dish is a 1768 01:34:16,920 --> 01:34:20,000 Speaker 1: way of nurturing and nourishing. But we shouldn't just stop there. 1769 01:34:20,400 --> 01:34:22,679 Speaker 1: And part of this is actually a shift in power 1770 01:34:22,760 --> 01:34:25,280 Speaker 1: and the shift of the role of the woman in society, 1771 01:34:25,320 --> 01:34:28,479 Speaker 1: because fifty to a hundred years ago, the role and 1772 01:34:28,520 --> 01:34:31,320 Speaker 1: the source of power in society for a woman was 1773 01:34:31,360 --> 01:34:34,640 Speaker 1: broadly in the home, and so the way that you 1774 01:34:34,760 --> 01:34:37,679 Speaker 1: actually manifested power in the home was through the shaping 1775 01:34:37,680 --> 01:34:40,519 Speaker 1: of the social life. But the shaping of the social 1776 01:34:40,560 --> 01:34:43,200 Speaker 1: life was also through the shaping of things. And so 1777 01:34:43,280 --> 01:34:46,120 Speaker 1: as our as we are unlearning and undoing the role 1778 01:34:46,160 --> 01:34:48,040 Speaker 1: of the woman, all of a sudden, what I'm trying 1779 01:34:48,120 --> 01:34:51,719 Speaker 1: to do is extract this archetype of like the host 1780 01:34:51,800 --> 01:34:54,360 Speaker 1: with the apron in the kitchen, to actually saying no, no no, no. 1781 01:34:54,560 --> 01:34:57,920 Speaker 1: Hosting is something that's deeply sacred, and it's about creating 1782 01:34:57,960 --> 01:35:01,120 Speaker 1: meaning between people. Whether you're a great cook, wonderful I 1783 01:35:01,160 --> 01:35:03,519 Speaker 1: love great food, I love you know. A lot of 1784 01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:05,240 Speaker 1: my friends are chefs. Like this is not a hate 1785 01:35:05,280 --> 01:35:08,200 Speaker 1: against chefs or ran against chefs. It's saying that that 1786 01:35:08,439 --> 01:35:11,760 Speaker 1: is one way of shaping a context. But any of 1787 01:35:11,840 --> 01:35:13,880 Speaker 1: us can gather meaningfully. And you don't need to be 1788 01:35:13,880 --> 01:35:16,120 Speaker 1: a great cook. You don't need to have a fancy house. 1789 01:35:16,360 --> 01:35:18,000 Speaker 1: You can have it be a pot luck. You don't 1790 01:35:18,000 --> 01:35:20,519 Speaker 1: even necessarily need to have food, but food helps. But 1791 01:35:20,680 --> 01:35:28,040 Speaker 1: to become competitive about meaning making, not competitive about table setting. 1792 01:35:28,560 --> 01:35:32,680 Speaker 1: I love that. It's a really important perspective shift, and 1793 01:35:32,720 --> 01:35:35,400 Speaker 1: it's possible. So something I ask everyone who comes on, 1794 01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:38,200 Speaker 1: I'm curious when you think about the name of the 1795 01:35:38,479 --> 01:35:42,000 Speaker 1: of the podcast, work in progress, what comes to mind 1796 01:35:42,360 --> 01:35:46,160 Speaker 1: for you? Firstly, as a work in progress in your life? 1797 01:35:46,360 --> 01:35:48,519 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, there's so many parts of my I mean, 1798 01:35:48,560 --> 01:35:51,240 Speaker 1: my whole life as a work in progress, that that 1799 01:35:51,360 --> 01:35:54,400 Speaker 1: idea of becoming is is like, we're all works in progress. 1800 01:35:54,880 --> 01:35:57,880 Speaker 1: I think, particularly right now, a work in progress is 1801 01:35:57,880 --> 01:36:00,800 Speaker 1: figuring out how to be a mother and how to 1802 01:36:00,880 --> 01:36:03,559 Speaker 1: be a mother with a partner who is a father, 1803 01:36:03,960 --> 01:36:05,920 Speaker 1: and how do we both be out in the world 1804 01:36:06,000 --> 01:36:09,080 Speaker 1: in the public square, but also as deeply committed to 1805 01:36:09,400 --> 01:36:13,599 Speaker 1: being um present parents at home. I think a work 1806 01:36:13,640 --> 01:36:16,759 Speaker 1: in progress for me has always been how do I 1807 01:36:16,880 --> 01:36:19,599 Speaker 1: You know, as a facilitator, you're taught to deeply hear 1808 01:36:19,680 --> 01:36:22,800 Speaker 1: other people's opinions and values and summarize them and play 1809 01:36:22,840 --> 01:36:24,880 Speaker 1: them back to each other. But it's easier to hide, 1810 01:36:25,360 --> 01:36:27,519 Speaker 1: and so work in progress for me is to actually 1811 01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:32,160 Speaker 1: start articulating what my specific disputable beliefs are. I often now, 1812 01:36:32,200 --> 01:36:34,680 Speaker 1: I am still a facilitator, and I work with a 1813 01:36:34,720 --> 01:36:38,320 Speaker 1: lot of clients and organizations, particularly the political world, and 1814 01:36:38,360 --> 01:36:41,240 Speaker 1: I often say now like, I am a facilitator, but 1815 01:36:41,280 --> 01:36:44,160 Speaker 1: I will tell you what I think. I'm a facilitator, 1816 01:36:44,320 --> 01:36:46,760 Speaker 1: but I will tell you what my opinions and what 1817 01:36:46,880 --> 01:36:50,880 Speaker 1: my advice is. Um. I am not neutral, and that 1818 01:36:51,080 --> 01:36:53,599 Speaker 1: has been a huge work in progress, you know, not 1819 01:36:53,680 --> 01:36:55,240 Speaker 1: unlike what you shared. One of the things I most 1820 01:36:55,280 --> 01:36:57,639 Speaker 1: loved during our time together together live as when you said, 1821 01:36:57,960 --> 01:37:03,320 Speaker 1: I'm not Tequila. I can't please everybody. UM. I think 1822 01:37:03,640 --> 01:37:09,240 Speaker 1: moving from being a pleaser to being an informed woman 1823 01:37:09,960 --> 01:37:15,040 Speaker 1: with opinions and beliefs and standing up for them is 1824 01:37:15,479 --> 01:37:17,400 Speaker 1: and has always been a work in progress for me. 1825 01:37:18,160 --> 01:37:23,479 Speaker 1: Very cool. Thank you so much. You're just so brilliant 1826 01:37:23,640 --> 01:37:27,040 Speaker 1: and and you every time I get to hear you speak, 1827 01:37:27,080 --> 01:37:29,839 Speaker 1: it's like the best kind of earthquake. I feel totally 1828 01:37:29,960 --> 01:37:34,200 Speaker 1: rattled and repositioned, and I'm just really grateful that you 1829 01:37:34,240 --> 01:37:36,040 Speaker 1: made time for us today. Thank you so much for 1830 01:37:36,080 --> 01:37:38,160 Speaker 1: having me and for all of the work that you do, 1831 01:37:38,320 --> 01:37:41,879 Speaker 1: and for your willingness to continue to use your platform 1832 01:37:41,960 --> 01:37:45,479 Speaker 1: to stand up for specific, disputable things that make our 1833 01:37:45,840 --> 01:37:51,120 Speaker 1: societies better and more inclusive. I deeply admire it. Thank 1834 01:37:51,160 --> 01:37:58,640 Speaker 1: you so much. You the best. This show is executive 1835 01:37:58,640 --> 01:38:02,240 Speaker 1: produced by Me, Sophie you Bush, and sim Sarna. Our 1836 01:38:02,280 --> 01:38:06,839 Speaker 1: supervising producer is Alison Bresnick. Our associate producer is Kate Linley. 1837 01:38:07,479 --> 01:38:10,639 Speaker 1: Our editor is Josh Wendish, and our music was written 1838 01:38:10,640 --> 01:38:13,840 Speaker 1: by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. This show 1839 01:38:13,920 --> 01:38:16,160 Speaker 1: is brought to you by Crilliant Anatomy