WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: The Glasgow Effect 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.720 Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by Jerk pork Sausage. 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:07.960 Instead is supported by the generous contributions of people like you, 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:12.360 our listeners on Patreon. Visit patreon dot com slash thinking 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:23.000 sideways to learn more Thinking Sideways. I'm you never know 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:30.440 stories of things we simply don't know the answer too. 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:35.800 Hey there everybody, and welcome again to another episode of 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:41.000 Thinking Sideways. As the cat runs through the road, I 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:44.800 am I am Steve, as always, I am joined by 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:49.000 O and Devin. He was pointing at me, was it? 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:50.920 It was sort of pointing in between us. So I 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:56.080 just as always, we have another mystery for you. Uh, 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:58.760 this is a listener suggestion before I get too far in, 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:01.240 because we seem to be trying to forget mentioning that 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:04.400 their listeners suggestions. Lately, there's just too many suggestions. Sometimes 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.479 you just formissed that it's a suggestion. Yeah, well then 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:13.520 you suggestion by Joel. So Joel suggested the topic today, 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:16.640 which is the Glasgow effect, or you may see it 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:20.640 referred to as the Scottish effect. But it's more Glasgow 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:25.119 than anywhere else, right it is, and we're we're saying that, right, 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:33.360 I'm Glasgow. It's not Glasgow or like Glasgow. Listen, do 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:36.560 we have to go and start angry emails in the 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:41.280 first two minutes? You too? Yes, damn it. Well, this 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:44.080 mystery is a little bit different than normal. It's not 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:48.560 a murder mystery. There's there's a lot of death. It's 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:53.840 it's more of an unknown health situation, socioeconomic mystery. Maybe 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:57.320 I don't know how to classify it. Steve Special, it's 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:00.559 Steve Special. Actually, there we go. That to really appeared 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:03.520 to be all that socioeconomic. I think it's to do 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:07.680 with spoilers. Spoilers as we'll find out. All right, Well, 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:11.200 let's start by explaining the Glasgow Effect. Starting somewhere in 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:14.520 the your early two thousand's, a bunch of studies started 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:19.840 cropping up that we're talking about the unexplained poor health 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:25.840 uh and blow average life expectancy of the residents of Glasgow, Scotland. 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:29.799 The Glasgow effect is and I quote, a term used 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:33.640 to describe the higher levels of mortality and poor health 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:38.440 experienced in Scotland over and above the that explained by 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:43.880 socio economic circumstances. Evidence of this excess being concentrated in 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:48.120 West central Scotland has led to discussion of the more 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:54.560 specific Glasgow effect. Unquote, if anybody driving home hoping for 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:58.680 you know, something to keep them awake, this might not 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:04.239 be it. It's definitely more academic. If you're living in Glasgow, 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:06.000 is probably going to scare the crap out of you, 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:08.840 or you're already dead, one of the two. But you 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:10.760 know this is this is definitely much more of an 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:14.280 academic mystery than than our normal fair So it's a 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:16.760 good one for the people who listen and run at night. Yes, 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:21.240 the that quote before I interrupted you Sorry, yeah, well 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:23.320 I was just gonna say no, is that the quote 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:25.480 doesn't really do a good job of explaining it. So 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:27.200 let me try and break this down a little more 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:33.680 of Layman's term situation UM. Glasgow's mortality rates are considered 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:37.840 easily the highest in Britain, and they're among the highest 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:42.840 in Europe. Whether it's death from things like siro cirosis, 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:49.840 drug abuse, a cancer, murder, suicide, life expectancy at birth 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:55.440 in Glasgow is lower than average, and for men that 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:58.360 means that the men will live to be an average 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:02.800 of seventy one point six years, whereas everywhere else in 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:06.280 the UK they would normally live to an average of 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:10.160 seventy eight point two years, basically six year difference. And 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:14.600 also it's it's concentrated in certain areas of Glasgow too. 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.440 There's areas of Glasgow where a white male life expectancy 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:22.440 is fifty four, yeah, and other areas where the life 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:26.080 expectancy is actually like eighty three. Correct, So it's all 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:27.479 over the map. But that's you know, that's the thing 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:30.000 about statistics that you've got to average the whole thing. 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:32.800 But let's get back to this. So now if we 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:38.880 talk about women, they the average for women is four 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:44.080 years below the national average. So in Glasgow women will 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:47.919 are expected to average seventy eight years compared to in 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:51.279 the UK the average of eighty two point three. And 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:55.080 these are just to help frame it. That's these are significant, right, 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:57.320 it's not I mean there and they must be. They 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.800 must be significant enough that there's there's a total effects 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:02.920 named after it. But you know, when when you talk 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:05.400 about the difference of four years life expectancy, that doesn't 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:09.000 sound that outrageous. Okay, well let me know, so let 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:11.320 me try to break this down and so it makes 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:14.440 a little more sense than all right, you've got a 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:17.839 city that on its own people. And this is you know, 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:20.760 in the developed world, we've got a city where people 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:25.000 in general aren't living as long. Now. The easy thing, 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:27.480 and this is something that will come up in the theories, 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:32.240 is people say, oh, well, it's the impoverished, it's the poor. 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:35.520 They don't live a good lifestyle, they don't eat right, 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:39.720 so no wonder they die early. Well, it turns out 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:44.279 that the upper ten percent of the of Glasgow, the 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:46.240 people who are in that upper ten percent of the 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:54.200 economic bracket, they also die younger than their cohorts that significantly, yeah, 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.599 in in other cities. So it's not as if it's 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:01.280 this one demographic that's holding all the numbers down. And 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:03.760 that's what's got everybody kind of scratching their head is 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:07.560 wait a minute, So it's all across the board. It's 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:12.479 all walks of life. It's not just one group. They 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:17.119 should do some research on this they I bet they have. 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:22.960 I'm pretty sure I read some of it. Actually, um yeah, 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:24.599 well no, actually, you know, that's a good point to 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:27.280 bring up. There is a bunch of research on it. 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.080 And one of the places that I will cite because 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:34.480 they put out so much great information is the Glasgow 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:38.320 Center for population health. They have study after study after 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:41.680 study after study. If you want some good nighttime reading, 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:46.040 I have a couple of reports that are pages long 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:52.600 that are they are just they will deriveting. So the 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:54.880 people that are maintaining this side, are they all still alive? 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:59.440 I think, I guess won't that much longer, right, Yeah, No, 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.400 it's it's gonna be up for a while. Now that 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:05.159 we've kind of explained the mystery, there's a there's some 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:08.080 details we should probably give some people. Uh, first of which, 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:12.200 for folks who don't know Glasgow is in Scotland and 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:16.040 Scotland is part of the UK, it's what would you say, 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:19.760 it's about the upper third of the island. It's ballpark 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:22.320 that But with some people, you know, the geography isn't 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:24.600 there their gigs. So I just always try to point 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:27.080 that out to the island you're talking about. It's not 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:31.120 the UK though, right Britain. Yeah okay, oh yeah, no, 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:33.520 you're right. It would be Britain. Detail that's going to 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:35.880 point that out. Yes, you're absolutely right, you're right. I 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:38.480 would have I would have got us on that one. Uh. 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:42.000 For some there's I pulled census data because I figured 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:44.920 this would probably be important. It didn't turn out in 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:46.960 the long run to be as much as I wanted. 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:50.080 But there's something to keep in mind, which is Glasgow 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:54.080 is a really big city. Uh. The city itself is 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.480 sixty eight square miles, which is a d seventy five 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:03.280 square kilometers, but there is also the Greater Glasgow Urban 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:06.360 Area that means just all the area around the city 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:09.520 of Glasgow what we call the metro area, called the 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:13.200 metropolitan area, and that's a hundred forty two square miles 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:18.240 or three sixty square kilometers. Not nothing, No, it's it's 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:21.040 a big, big place. And according to the last census 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:25.200 in Glasgow, which when I pulled it was from there's 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:28.680 six hundred thousand people in the city. Now I census 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:31.760 that I pulled for the urban area was from two 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.000 thousand one, but at that point it was one point 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:37.440 two million people. So it's a big city. It's not 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:41.120 the biggest city in the world in terms of population density. 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:44.160 There's what did I figure it out here, There's like 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.520 hundred people per square mile or something like that, but 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:54.160 it is of Scotland's population lives in that city, so 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:59.920 it's it's kind of the major city. Yeah, A lot. Now, 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.760 I pointed out that there's the city of Glasgow and 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:07.120 then there's the Glasgow greater urban area. That's kind of 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:10.960 important to know because if you do ever go dig 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:15.280 into the studies, you'll see some studies refer to just 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:18.360 the city of Glasgow and some of them that pull 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:22.600 from the greater urban area. UM. Now, that's important because 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:25.600 it are they using the smaller pool of people or 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.800 the larger pool of people to to get their data 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:35.360 and to get their results. I've seen some conflicting reports, 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:37.000 but most of them, even when they pull it from 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:40.640 the greater urban area, the effects still seems to be present. 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:42.840 But it's something to be aware of. If you do 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:46.120 the reading statistics, you gotta love them if you can 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.960 work them. However, you need to the other bit of 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:52.280 technical information that you need to know here. If you 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:55.120 do go in any of the reporting, you're gonna see 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:57.480 a phrase which I believe it or not, took people 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:01.360 all the figure out, and that is excess deaths. I 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:03.160 didn't understand that. I was like, it wasn't every one 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:06.360 of them just neccess And yeah, now it turns out 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.559 that is the number above and beyond what the expected 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:13.640 average is gonna be. So we're gonna get into some 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:17.280 more sexy numbers here. I can see the look on 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:25.640 Devon's face. She is excited about percentages. Alrighty, So what 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:29.240 I'm gonna give you here is the percent of excess 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:32.959 deaths in the Glasgow area above and beyond what the 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:35.440 national average is. And this is going to be for 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:39.760 all age groups, so from zero to one hundred or 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:44.040 I guess it's one, but yeah, well I guess it 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:47.760 could be. Yeah, Well you get the point. So we 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:52.079 have above the average death of cancer is twenty three 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:58.720 the sorry, so it's uh that much above average? Right? 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:01.720 So average is zero in this case. Let's say the 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:06.160 average was a thousand. Okay, so there's an the average 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:10.120 of a thousand deaths a year from cancer is expected normal. 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.120 Then it would be two d and thirty two because 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:17.319 that's more more right. So yeah, I guess I was 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:19.679 saying that, like, you put average at zero, so the 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:25.000 is above average? Correct, got it? All? Right? So then 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:28.880 we have deaths from circulatory issues, which I would take 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:33.200 to mean things anywhere from heart attacks to strokes. But 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:38.479 that is five. I never actually got a good explanation 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:42.000 of what they meant by that, and then alcohol related 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.720 that is higher than expected, so that'd be alcoholism and 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:49.760 sorrosism and stuff like that. Any deaths related to alcohol, yes, 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:53.120 exactly does that? I'm sorry, does that include like car crashes? 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:56.160 To be quite honest, that is one of the things. 0:11:56.240 --> 0:12:00.400 So there's a bunch of phrases used that are never 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:03.360 the same from one report to the next. So sometimes 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:06.640 it's a little difficult to know if you're comparing apples 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:10.400 to apples or apples to oranges. So I can't answer 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:13.920 exactly what it is. But if we do, if we 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:16.840 look at the numbers, and we were then to remove 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.679 anybody who is sixty five and over, as our British 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:23.880 friends like to say, the pensioners, you take them out, 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:28.480 and we have people who die from alcohol related issues, 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:32.840 only it's higher. So it seems like the younger generation 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:36.400 maybe is is boozing it up more. Um. And then 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:39.319 the other thing that's notable for that group is drug 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:43.920 related issues, which is seventeen percent higher than expected. Yeah, 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:47.160 although you know, I've I've read that they've done studies 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:52.480 and the other other comparable like, um, British towns, there's 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.559 actually uh, there's no more drinking in Glasgow than in 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:59.199 other towns. No. Actually, it turns out in Glasgow they 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:03.480 actually drink inc They have less binge drinking and it 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:06.319 seems like there's less drinking there than the other towns 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:08.240 of the talent that you're talking about that are in 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:12.120 the reports in the research, that's going to be Liverpool 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:16.319 and Manchester. Yeah, to be the favorite. Yeah, because well 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:19.880 they seem to through the data somehow they seem to 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:22.720 match up in terms of I'm guessing something to do 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:26.720 with population size and then the spectrum in terms of 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:31.400 demographics from you know, way below the poverty line to 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:35.800 making x an amount or more a year, probably similar 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:41.600 you know, male female ratios, all those and all that stuff. Yeah, 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:43.760 I mean I've got to presume that's why they would 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:47.040 be selected. Otherwise it wouldn't make any sense to select them. 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:50.600 Um that right there, though, Believe it or not, that's 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.160 one of our shortest mysteries, because that is the mystery, 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:54.880 is that we've got all these people who are just 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:59.840 dying younger than they should and we don't know why. 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:02.160 I don't know if you mentioned this. This this whole 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:06.360 thing actually started in about nineteen fifty. We haven't got 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:08.679 to that, but you're absolutely right, Yeah, you gonna mention that, 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:10.320 like we can do it and we can talk about 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:12.160 now that's not a problem at all. You're right, Joe. 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:14.040 And one of the things that I'm kind of intrigued 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:17.640 by since we're heading into theories anyways, and probably somebody 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:19.640 has thought to check this, but what are there any 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:23.560 major population movements starting about nineteen the whole bunch of 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:25.440 people move away or a whole bunch of people move in. 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:30.400 So there have been migrations. Um, Glasgow itself, it's always 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:35.440 been or traditionally it was a large industrial city and 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.000 they were known for a couple of things, one of 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:41.160 which was shipbuilding. That's what brought a lot of people 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:44.360 to the city. Um, there was a huge migration push 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.560 in the eighteen hundreds. There a lot of people came in. 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:50.920 And when you're in that, um what is that? That 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:54.280 era called the Industrial Revolution? Thank you that we're just 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:56.200 skipped right out of my head as soon as I wanted. 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:59.040 When the Industrial Revolution hit, you know, it's it's kind 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:05.000 of that trip typical growing city situation. Everybody came in 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:09.320 and it was a dirty, jammed, gross place, but they 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:12.480 made a lot of stuff and then, but also one 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:14.840 can presume not much more. I mean, it wasn't more 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:18.720 dirty or jammed than many other major cities that we No, No, 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:21.960 it wasn't. It wasn't in any way that I can 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:26.760 tell in the research crazier or more dangerous or dirtier 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.040 or anything like that. And it was kind of average. 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:32.960 You're right until Joe was saying, is that in the fifties, 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:36.880 And at that point that's when they started to see 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:39.800 that people were dying younger there than they should have. 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:44.920 At the same time, there was migration out of the area, 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:48.600 but there's also been migration into the area, because, like 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.160 I said, it started with ship building, and then they 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:56.120 had chemical processing and then I can't remember. I want 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:57.880 to say, it's a textile. I've got it somewhere in 0:15:57.880 --> 0:15:59.320 my notes here. I'll find it in a bit. I 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:01.960 can't with the third industry was but there were three industries. 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:04.200 I thought it was like plutonium mining and handling or 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:07.840 something like that. It wasn't that, but that would just 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:11.080 be the answer. Then. But are clean industries, so it 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:15.080 makes sense that they're they're workers are likely to be sicker, 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:19.280 except that over time things clean up. But it's it's 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:22.400 no worse than any other industrial It shouldn't be any 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:26.480 worse than any other industrial towns. And that's that's again 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:32.280 the problem. Those industries started moving away. So as these 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:34.960 people who are now dying in their fifties and sixties, 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:38.880 they were probably born at a time when those industries 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:41.280 were just getting out of town. It doesn't necessarily mean 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:43.920 I mean something, so they should have been breathing or 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.520 anything that these nobody would spit out. The genetic donor 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:51.400 that created them, had something like that that caused their 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:53.880 you know, the DNA that they were given to reproduce 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:57.920 a way, that's something that they do know. But I mean, again, 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:00.440 this is like we're probably way into your theories at 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:02.480 this point. No, actually, no, this is this is actually 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:04.480 I'm glad Joe brought it up. I hadn't thought about 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:06.320 the fact that this is probably should be talked about 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:08.400 in the and the onset of this before we get 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:11.320 into theories. But yeah, you know, and and just so 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:15.720 people know, is that, yeah, people were coming in. The 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:20.800 cultural demographic of the area has changed over time. So 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:25.160 as with any any city, um, it's changed over time. 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:28.960 So it's a completely different gene pool now than it 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:34.000 was fifty and a hundred years at least statistically significant, Yes, 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:37.160 a significant, significant enough that I would I would say 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:41.320 it's notable. Um so that stuff has happened. And then yeah, no, 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.960 you know, the the economy has changed. All of the 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:47.800 big industries, most of the big industries. I think it's 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:51.760 sixties some percent of it started leaving as of I 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:54.960 think nineteen sixty or sixty one. They started leaving, and 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:59.120 it's you know, thirty some of what they originally had 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.359 is is industrial jobs. Is what's still there. They do 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:04.600 like to put those industries in places where the government's 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:10.840 care a little less about regulations. That's one reason. Um so, yeah, so, 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:12.720 I mean that's you know, that's had an effect on it, 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:17.080 which is why you see cultural migrations. Because if I 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:21.520 am a chip builder and there's no more ship building jobs, 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.120 I'm gonna go somewhere else where I can build ships, 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.800 make that money for building ships rather than flipping burgers 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:29.960 at a McDonald's or something. And then here's the deal, 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:34.399 is that the people that migrated out might have actually 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:38.640 been uh might have actually been a little smarter, little 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:40.119 more hard working. I don't want to I don't want 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:43.560 to offend anybody from Glasgow, but I don't think that 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:46.800 would have any effect on it. I don't know. You know, 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.600 actually would be a fascinating thing to study, but it 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.840 seems like it's mostly a health issue. Well you never know, 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:54.800 it might be a genetic issue, who knows. But it 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:56.760 would be interesting to track down all the people who 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:01.160 left Glasgow and see how long they lived. Leaving Glasgow 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:05.600 actually extend your lifespan. It seems like something that they 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.320 should have done and at some point. But I don't 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:10.280 know how easy that is though it would be tough 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.320 to track. What you need to do is you have to, 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:19.480 like on ancestry dot com that like, for fifty bucks 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:22.359 or whatever it is, we could figure this out. I 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:26.119 think I'm charging I'm charging to read the Wikipedia page 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:30.040 of you know, different cases right now. So, uh, I 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:32.960 think we'd charge more than fifty to solve this one. True. Yeah, 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:37.119 that sounds fair. Let's now that we've gone through that, 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:39.480 let's get into the theories, because I think that's that's 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:43.280 the next logical step for us. Um So we're going 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:46.720 to start with the first theory, which is poverty, because 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.080 as I said, that's the big one that you will 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:52.840 see people point at is that people who are in 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:56.760 a lower economic station in life, they don't have the money, 0:19:56.800 --> 0:19:59.280 so they're not going to eat as well, they're gonna 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:03.080 do things that aren't good for them. So I'm gonna 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:08.600 work in those shipyards or in the platonium platonium holding 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:12.560 in here. Yeah, yeah, I mean that's just I mean, 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:15.800 that is just a reality that we know. Yeah, yeahs 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:18.760 things have changed. Yeah, and also just the stuff of 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:21.600 you know, the different stresses and the incredible toll that 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:23.439 that can take on your lifespan. Is if you know 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:27.560 you're living paycheck to paycheck, or in unstable housing, or 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:30.480 or if you're if you're on the doll as they say, 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:34.480 Because here's something to keep in mind is that in Glasgow, 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:38.320 one out of five people are out of work and 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:43.280 one out of four are getting assistance. So that's that's 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:47.040 a lot of joblessness, and that means that's a lot 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:49.840 of people, as you said, we're kind of scraping by. Yeah. 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:52.040 And the and the added stress on that I know, 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:55.119 we've they've done so many studies all over the world 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:59.080 on all that stress significantly affects the health levels that 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:02.280 you'll see. Yeah, we've and generations down and even actually 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:05.000 interesting fund side fact, I think I heard this on 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:07.359 like NPR or something like that, so I may have 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:10.800 my facts wrong. I'm just recalling, so please don't tell 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:12.680 me that I'm lying or anything like that. But I'm 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:15.160 pretty sure that they've done studies on the stress levels 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:18.960 of pregnant mothers and how it affects the obesity rate 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:21.760 of their children, which is so interesting. I actually have 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:23.960 some of that at this point, So that's yeah, no, 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.480 you're but you're on track. It does, it does make 0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:30.760 a huge difference. Um, so let's talk about we talked 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:33.280 ahead and sorry, So I just mean that that's something 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:35.680 to keep in mind when you say, well, even if 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:38.280 you know the families are doing better and better, just 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:40.720 because that's the case, it doesn't mean that today doesn't 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:46.640 mean yea. Um, So if we take a look at 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:49.320 the history in Glasgow. You remember I told you there 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:52.120 was that big cultural migration in the eighteen hundreds. Well, 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:56.679 in the nineteen fifties there was this thought that we 0:21:56.760 --> 0:21:59.399 need to build the city, we need to change the city, 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:03.359 and so the government actually built a bunch of high 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:06.480 rise tenement housing, kind of like we did here in 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:08.280 the States. And we die. Yeah, Chicago is the one 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:10.639 that comes to mind for me, and it was a 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:15.439 situation where it was government owned and these people were 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:19.359 living in it, and conditions weren't always healthy, they weren't clean. 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:23.920 I'm not blaming anybody for this, it's just what happened sometimes, 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:27.200 as we've seen all over the globe with this kind 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:31.679 of housing situation. So just to be clear, the comparison 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:38.320 is that this kind of housing would be the projects essentially. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:43.399 it's it's it's it becomes a slum in a way. Um, 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.199 you know that they've gone. They've now come back. I 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:48.280 think in the last twenty or thirty years they started 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:52.920 tearing those buildings down. They're trying to fix things up. Unfortunately, 0:22:53.040 --> 0:22:57.480 it's left this poverty stricken area because if you can 0:22:57.600 --> 0:23:01.399 afford not to live in that building, you're you're gonna escape. 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:06.359 You know, people flee that people who can't can't. And 0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:09.720 so this is something that gets pointed out. It's more 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:12.400 of a you see it pointed out more than anywhere 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:15.440 else in the news reporting of this. When you get 0:23:15.480 --> 0:23:20.520 into the actual data, it's it's actually admirable the amount 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:24.359 of work that every researcher does to just kick the 0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:28.560 living crap out of this theory because they've taken they 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:31.399 if they take this what they it's referred to as 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:34.880 a socio economic factor. That means you're station in life, 0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:38.159 your income level against the poverty line. And when they 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:40.560 balance through that and they take it out of the equation, 0:23:41.480 --> 0:23:45.480 people in that area are still dying sooner than people 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:48.720 in similar cities with at the same time when they 0:23:48.720 --> 0:23:50.880 take it and they put it in an evil, uh 0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:53.439 even playing field. Yeah. That The thing about this, this 0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:57.600 particular mystery is is U policy advocates usually, you know, 0:23:58.280 --> 0:23:59.680 use it as an excuse to ride there on the 0:23:59.760 --> 0:24:03.240 law abby horse. So if you're a big anti poverty advocate, 0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:05.600