Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's me Josh and for this week's select
Speaker 1: and an honor of Black History Month, I've chosen our
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen episode on the Negro Leagues. It's a story
Speaker 1: that follows an arc a lot like another episode we
Speaker 1: did on the Harlem Globetrotters, where we have a group
Speaker 1: of people who were discriminated against, so they went off
Speaker 1: and formed their own league, their own thing, showed their greatness,
Speaker 1: and then were eventually co opted, which left some of
Speaker 1: the people who'd help build what they had out in
Speaker 1: the cold. And it's also a story though, of great
Speaker 1: feats of athleticism and social heroics as well. And even
Speaker 1: if you're not into baseball, I guarantee you like this episode,
Speaker 1: so enjoy.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with
Speaker 1: Charles W Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry and there's the.
Speaker 2: Stuff you should No Sportsy addition.
Speaker 1: Sportsy, I think really we should err on just the
Speaker 1: side of history.
Speaker 2: Well. I even put a note in here if you
Speaker 2: don't like sports, listen to this one anyway. Yeah, because
Speaker 2: this is about much more than baseball. Yeah, this is
Speaker 2: about history and about.
Speaker 1: Overcoming adversity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like it's a very interesting story because and we'll
Speaker 2: get into this, but I think people tend to think
Speaker 2: of the negro leagues, and that's what this is about,
Speaker 2: the baseball negro leagues, which is what they were called.
Speaker 2: We don't use that word anymore, no, but you call
Speaker 2: this that because that's what it was, right. You tend
Speaker 2: to think of it in a certain way, which is
Speaker 2: only Yeah, well baseball was segregated and they couldn't play
Speaker 2: in the white leagues, and that's awful, which it is
Speaker 2: and was, But there's another side to it too.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point where.
Speaker 2: These men and these business owners were empowered and the
Speaker 2: players and yeah, and it's yeah, that's just a tease.
Speaker 2: I just wanted to whet their appetite word in my appetite.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here, like, keep going.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I think we should start with a little bit
Speaker 1: of history, right, So just a brief primer of American history.
Speaker 1: We'll start with slavery.
Speaker 2: It's a good place to start.
Speaker 1: The transit Atlantic slave trade. Yeah, built this country. And frankly,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna come out and say, I think some
Speaker 1: of the major issues that the United States faces today
Speaker 1: comes from a lack of accountability for slavery. Really, it's
Speaker 1: contributing to a lot of the inequality and a lot
Speaker 1: of the strife that we still face today and have
Speaker 1: faced over the decades. So you've got slavery, and then
Speaker 1: you had the end of slavery. You had the Emancipation Proclamation,
Speaker 1: which a lot of people say, oh, well, that was great.
Speaker 1: Abraham Lincoln spoke some magic words and freed the slaves
Speaker 1: and everything was great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just perfectly equal after that.
Speaker 1: Right, No, no, So it took the Union to win
Speaker 1: the Civil War to begin to enforce the Emancipation Proclamation
Speaker 1: in the South and in Texas. Apparently Texas were among
Speaker 1: the last holdouts, and there was slavery going on in
Speaker 1: Texas like years after the Civil War was over.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: They were just like, we're just not going to pay
Speaker 1: attention to that. Sure, So the Civil Wars fought. The
Speaker 1: part of the Union victory of the Civil War was
Speaker 1: coming into the South and saying like, all you Confederates,
Speaker 1: you guys are out of power. And as a matter
Speaker 1: of fact, this power vacuum is perfectly willing to be
Speaker 1: filled by freed blacks. So go ahead, run for office,
Speaker 1: become judges, like, become part of the reconstruction power. And
Speaker 1: that lasted for a very very short time. The white
Speaker 1: Southern former power base who were leading the Confederacy, and
Speaker 1: even once who weren't necessarily part of the actual Confederate
Speaker 1: government or even the Confederate army, but just the people
Speaker 1: like in your town who used to own the sawmill
Speaker 1: or whatever. That guy came back in power within a
Speaker 1: couple of years, and the white Southerners who'd been supplanted,
Speaker 1: when they came back into power, they remembered the black
Speaker 1: people who had tried to take their positions, and so
Speaker 1: it got ugly. Yeah, and so rather than having actual
Speaker 1: legal slavery, it came in other different, horrible, pernicious forms
Speaker 1: which came to be called post reconstruction the Jim Crow South.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and boy, we need to do one. I've had
Speaker 2: it on my list for a while, on Jim Crow period.
Speaker 2: How about this? First of all, where'd you get this
Speaker 2: other good, really good article.
Speaker 1: It's on the Major League Baseball website.
Speaker 2: It in the prehistory section of that one. And this
Speaker 2: is just to show you the tone of things in
Speaker 2: eighteen fifty seven. That was a Supreme Court chief justice. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Roger Tanny, Who it's funny that the way this writer
Speaker 2: put it, he said he's campaigning hard for a spot
Speaker 2: in the American Scum Hall of Fame. Like that's pretty funny. Yeah.
Speaker 2: In his official writing, this is the Chief Justice of
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court said negroes were so far inferior to
Speaker 2: whites that they had no rights which a white man
Speaker 2: was bound to respect. This is the Chief Justice of
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think I need to say that like four more times. Yeah,
Speaker 2: before it sinks in.
Speaker 1: That was two or three.
Speaker 2: This is what was going on despite the Emancipation Proclamation,
Speaker 2: despite the Fourteenth Amendment.
Speaker 1: Well that was actually before it was before that was
Speaker 1: during the slavey, the time of slavery. Yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: just to excuse that guy.
Speaker 2: But after after that, despite the amendments to the Constitution,
Speaker 2: despite all of that, it took to the nineteen sixties
Speaker 2: to even begin the slightest bit of real progress.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2: Not quite true, because the history is littered with people
Speaker 2: who've made advancements. They I don't want to knock.
Speaker 1: That, but in a systemic manner. Yeah, totally, you're right,
Speaker 1: It wasn't until the sixties.
Speaker 2: But part of the problem too was and this is
Speaker 2: a valid point other courts had said, like those is justice.
Speaker 2: Henry Billings Brown said legislation is powerless to eradicate racial
Speaker 2: instincts or to abolish distinctions based upon physical differences. Basically,
Speaker 2: what he's saying is like, we can create laws, but
Speaker 2: you're not going to change public's mind by creating laws,
Speaker 2: and you can't like abolish present prejudice.
Speaker 1: Right, And so if white people think that black people
Speaker 1: are inferior to them, who are we the government to
Speaker 1: say otherwise?
Speaker 2: Yeah, to try maybe and legislate our way out of it, even.
Speaker 1: Right, So, in I think eighteen ninety six, there was
Speaker 1: a court case called Plusy versus Ferguson. Yeah, And in
Speaker 1: Plusy versus Ferguson, the Supreme Court upheld and legitimized and
Speaker 1: actually made real the segregation that had already been going
Speaker 1: on ever since reconstruction, or ever since the end of reconstruction,
Speaker 1: the beginning of Jim Crow laws. Right, So, the United
Speaker 1: States was officially segregated in eighteen ninety six, but baseball
Speaker 1: had actually segregated years before that, but not as far
Speaker 1: back as people think, And a lot of people think
Speaker 1: that baseball had always been segregated up until nineteen forty six. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier.
Speaker 2: I think ninety nine percent of people think that Jackie
Speaker 2: Robinson was the first black American to play.
Speaker 1: Baseball, including me until yesterday when we started researching. Oh
Speaker 1: did you know this already?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I'm a big baseball fan and a
Speaker 2: bit of a student of its history, so I knew. Okay,
Speaker 2: So tell him, Chuck, Well, who the guys were specifically?
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, so in eighteen sixty seven, I think two
Speaker 1: years after the Civil War, there was already Remember Abner
Speaker 1: double Day created baseball in what eighteen thirty nine? Oh,
Speaker 1: in like thirteen hundred and that's but that's a legitimate story, right,
Speaker 1: that's not like he really did. He was the inventor
Speaker 1: of the baseball, and it did happen in Cooperstown, New
Speaker 1: York and all.
Speaker 2: That, right, Yeah, Okay, I don't know, but was he
Speaker 2: in Cooperstown?
Speaker 1: I believe?
Speaker 2: So, Okay, well that makes sense.
Speaker 1: So within just a couple of decades, there was the
Speaker 1: National Association of Baseball Players.
Speaker 2: They were the league, right, yeah, I mean not within
Speaker 2: a couple of decades, a couple of years. Oh really, yeah,
Speaker 2: like literally two years after the end of the Civil War.
Speaker 2: That was an African American team called I actually don't
Speaker 2: know what their name was, but they were out of
Speaker 2: Philadelphia and they said, we want to join your league,
Speaker 2: which was the National Association of Baseball Players at the time.
Speaker 2: And they were rejected as a team of course at
Speaker 2: the time. And but that didn't mean that there were
Speaker 2: not players individually.
Speaker 1: Right, that's a huge caveat.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a little bit later in eighteen eighty
Speaker 2: six five, and not for too long. We had two brothers,
Speaker 2: Moses fleetwood Walker and well day Walker and most did
Speaker 2: they play for the Toledo Bluestock That's.
Speaker 1: Right, baby, my hometown integrated baseball team in the eighteen eighties.
Speaker 2: You were totally right. Moses was he was older. He
Speaker 2: played forty two games for the team. Well, they only
Speaker 2: came along and played in six games. Moses hit to
Speaker 2: sixty three that season. And they were the son of
Speaker 2: a physician, like the first black physician in Toledo, nice
Speaker 2: and went to college played baseball at Oberlin in Michigan,
Speaker 2: so I know the Wolverines. I didn't know Oberlin even
Speaker 2: had sports.
Speaker 1: Well, this is the nineteenth century. I think they phased
Speaker 1: him out in.
Speaker 2: Favor of debate, acoustic guitars and debate. I know a
Speaker 2: lot of people that went to Oberlin. Weirdly, really, my
Speaker 2: good friend Robert Shahati from Boston that you met that
Speaker 2: came to our show. Lucy Wainwright went to Oberlin.
Speaker 1: Didn't know that.
Speaker 2: David Reese really went to Oberlin. And I feel like
Speaker 2: a couple of other people. Yeah, it's got a nice reputation. Yeah,
Speaker 2: great name too, Oberlin Oberlin. It sounds ivy league.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Oberlin, the.
Speaker 2: Sound equality Oberlin sounds ivy leaguash right, that's on their
Speaker 2: t shirts. Although we do need to give a shout out.
Speaker 2: There was one guy in eighteen seventy nine, William Edward White,
Speaker 2: who substituted and played one game. Oh yeah, who was
Speaker 2: officially and this is a little murky history wise, because
Speaker 2: we don't know much about him or how it happened,
Speaker 2: but supposedly he played one game as a professional baseball
Speaker 2: player as a black man.
Speaker 1: Is that right?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And this is when eighteen seventy nine.
Speaker 1: Okay, so the Walker brothers are playing for Toledo in
Speaker 1: eighteen eighty six, right, correct, And actually this article on
Speaker 1: how Stuff Works gets it wrong, says that they just
Speaker 1: played for the team for one year before the team
Speaker 1: went under. That's not the case. As a matter of fact,
Speaker 1: Moses Walker, they may have only played together on the
Speaker 1: team for that one year. Moses Walker had played for
Speaker 1: years before them. Yeah, And actually Moses Walker and there
Speaker 1: were several other players at the time in eighteen eighty
Speaker 1: six and eighty seven, there were at least four black
Speaker 1: players and the miners, but the Walker brothers were playing
Speaker 1: for Toledo, which was a major league team. Right, But
Speaker 1: the presence of Moses Walker actually brought to the four
Speaker 1: this kind of simmering resentment and kind of the big
Speaker 1: elephant in the room. There's a black guy on your team.
Speaker 1: What are you guys doing? And so Toledo actually went
Speaker 1: to go play the White Sox in Chicago, and the
Speaker 1: White Sox had this like their great player of that
Speaker 1: season I think in eighteen eighty four, who was cap Anson.
Speaker 2: Great nicknames back then son.
Speaker 1: And said he said some horrible things and ultimately was
Speaker 1: like I'm not playing if that man's on the field,
Speaker 1: And Moses Walker was actually injured and still was like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I'm definitely going on the field today anyway. So he
Speaker 1: dressed out and I'm not sure if he actually played
Speaker 1: in the game, but he was like part of the team,
Speaker 1: and cap Anson was not indulged. Toledo was like, we're
Speaker 1: not taking our guy out. He's one of our players.
Speaker 1: So cap Anson can go suck an egg, and camp
Speaker 1: Anton went and sucked an egg. He was really mad.
Speaker 1: But the issue that day, that dispute at Camiski Field
Speaker 1: brought to the four that the concept of integration and
Speaker 1: ultimately segregation among Major League Baseball teams, and it actually
Speaker 1: increased the pressure among owners and managers to get rid
Speaker 1: of the black players, not just in the majors, but
Speaker 1: in the minors.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was another player too. I read another story
Speaker 2: about and we'll get to Roy Campanella. He was he
Speaker 2: was better than Jackie Robinson at the time, a catcher
Speaker 2: who was just amazing Hall of Famer, and there was
Speaker 2: a white pitcher. It was like, you know, he was
Speaker 2: a great catcher, but I didn't want to play with him,
Speaker 2: so I would when I pitched to him, I would
Speaker 2: just ignore his signs and through whatever I want, like,
Speaker 2: to his own detriment and to the team's detriment. He
Speaker 2: he just wouldn't take the signs. What are putts, I know,
Speaker 2: career sabotage essentially. Yeah. I don't think he lasted long either.
Speaker 2: And Campanella's in the Hall of Fame, so he.
Speaker 1: Can do it right. The other guy who knows.
Speaker 2: I want to give these names all out though, the
Speaker 2: four black Men and the miners in eighteen sixty six.
Speaker 2: Besides Moses Walker, we had Bud Fowler, Frank Grant, and
Speaker 2: George Stovey, And as far as I'm concerned, all these
Speaker 2: dudes are American heroes. So all of a sudden they
Speaker 2: succumbed to pressure in eighteen ninety, after hate mail and
Speaker 2: death threats to the coaches and managers and umpires and
Speaker 2: you know, basically everybody, the players themselves, and they said,
Speaker 2: you know what, We're going to shut it down officially
Speaker 2: in eighteen ninety, we can no longer have any black
Speaker 2: men in our league.
Speaker 1: So here's the thing. They never officially did that. They
Speaker 1: had the minor league banned black players. Yeah, that way
Speaker 1: into the Major suro the miners.
Speaker 2: Well, and it was never on the rule books either.
Speaker 2: It was it was an unofficial, non gentlemen's agreement because
Speaker 2: which actually when it was broken, it wasn't like a
Speaker 2: rule was broken. It was just an unwritten rule.
Speaker 1: Right exactly, which paved the way for branch Ricky to
Speaker 1: break that unbroken rule without actually breaking a rule. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: good point, Chuck, you want to take a break, Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's do it. Stoftly jaws definitely, childs of each ski
Speaker 1: all right, man, So eighteen ninety, it's now there are
Speaker 1: there are no.
Speaker 2: Black players resegregated.
Speaker 1: In Major League baseball or minor league baseball in America, right,
Speaker 1: that's right. That actually paved the way for one of
Speaker 1: the great unsung chapters in baseball history, which was the
Speaker 1: creation of the Negro leagues.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And in a true show of American spirit and
Speaker 2: determination and just love of the game. Uh, these these
Speaker 2: men got together, they formed their own teams, and they
Speaker 2: did what's called barnstorming.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just pretty awesome.
Speaker 2: And they would load up in cars on a bus
Speaker 2: and they would go from town to town and take
Speaker 2: their show on the road, and they would get a
Speaker 2: game up wherever they could and wherever people would pay
Speaker 2: a couple of pennies to come watch a baseball game.
Speaker 2: They were playing white players in these barnstorming games, yeah,
Speaker 2: or black players or Latino players.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, because that's a definite overlook segment of the
Speaker 1: early baseball history. Or Latino players, Oh totally. And one
Speaker 1: of the cool things about the Negro leagues is they
Speaker 1: were integrated. They had Latino teams like the Cuban Kings
Speaker 1: out of New York I believe.
Speaker 2: Yep, and one white guy. All right, So barnstorming's going on.
Speaker 2: Like I said, they would roll into town, they would
Speaker 2: play whatever teams they could play, and it started to
Speaker 2: gain some momentum, Like people started to follow these players. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and they actually got fans. And there was a former
Speaker 2: player named Andrew Rube Foster who owned one of those teams,
Speaker 2: and he said, you know what, I think we need
Speaker 2: our own league. Yeah, they won't let us in their league.
Speaker 2: Let's start our own because besides the fact that people
Speaker 2: want it, there's money to be made here.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And as a matter of fact, so this barnstorming thing,
Speaker 1: I want to talk a little more about that, right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: one of the reasons barnstorming came about was to make
Speaker 1: ends meet, but it was also because these teams had
Speaker 1: to figure out a way to put on games as
Speaker 1: cheaply as possible. All of the stadiums at the time
Speaker 1: were owned by whites, and the whites apparently were not
Speaker 1: very friendly to the idea of black teams playing in
Speaker 1: their fields. So if it were just like black teams
Speaker 1: playing one another, the white owners of the fields would
Speaker 1: just charge an exorbitant amount. So these guys were going
Speaker 1: basically anywhere they could find a place that would stand
Speaker 1: still long enough for them to play a baseball game on.
Speaker 1: That's what they would play. And they played like three
Speaker 1: games a day every day, and they all traveled together
Speaker 1: and hung out with one another and spent a lot
Speaker 1: of time together. So like that, the Negro leagues came
Speaker 1: out of this kind of camaraderie of barnstorming together, which
Speaker 1: is pretty awesome.
Speaker 2: It's very cool.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, this guy, Rube Foster, he owned the Chicago
Speaker 1: American Giants, and confusingly, there was also another Negro team
Speaker 1: called the Chicago Giants.
Speaker 2: Into Saint Louis Giants.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but versus Chicago. Yeah, but if it was
Speaker 1: Chicago versus Chicago. Well, which one of the Giants? Well,
Speaker 1: which one the American Giants? Okay, now I understand not
Speaker 1: just the Giants, but Rube Foster was like this, this
Speaker 1: booster of boundless enthusiasm. This guy literally put together the
Speaker 1: first real Negro league. Yeah, and when he was basically
Speaker 1: removed from it, the whole thing fell apart. That's how
Speaker 1: much of a driver this guy was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's in the Hall of Fame too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was a catcher, I think.
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't even think he was in as a player,
Speaker 2: but he was really Yeah, I think just for his achievement,
Speaker 2: I gotcha, although it may have been both, I don't know.
Speaker 2: But in nineteen twenty he said, all right, here's what
Speaker 2: we'll do. Let me get these seven team owners of
Speaker 2: the Midwestern League that are doing these you know, bar
Speaker 2: and storming traveling shows. Basically, let's get together in Kansas
Speaker 2: City seven all black teams. In addition to those two
Speaker 2: Chicago Giants, we have the Cuban Stars, the Dayton Marcos,
Speaker 2: the Indianapolis Abcs, and the very famous Kansas City Monarchs
Speaker 2: and Saint Louis Giants all and this is the really
Speaker 2: like great thing about the story, All of these teams
Speaker 2: except for the Monarchs, were black owned teams.
Speaker 1: Right, So, not only do you have black players careers developing, yeah,
Speaker 1: you have like black enterprise developing in a time when
Speaker 1: there were very few avenues of opportunity for black people
Speaker 1: to advance in business. Yeah, and in a sense where
Speaker 1: they own the business. This is a really good way
Speaker 1: to do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And not only that, like the Major League Baseball
Speaker 2: site points out, like this was like it should be
Speaker 2: embraced in some ways because this at a time was
Speaker 2: the only one of the only ways that minorities could
Speaker 2: fully excel to their fullest potential.
Speaker 1: Right you know. Yeah, And that was a point of
Speaker 1: that article that I thought was pretty cool, is that
Speaker 1: one of the things they lamented about the segregation of
Speaker 1: baseball during this time is that we'll never know how
Speaker 1: Babe Ruth would have stood up against Satchel Page pitching
Speaker 1: to them because they never got to play each other.
Speaker 1: So the truly great players are truly great at during
Speaker 1: this time within their own skin color. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: you can't say they were the greatest in baseball because
Speaker 1: they were too legitimate parallel leagues going on at the time.
Speaker 1: And yeah, they played each other sometimes, but if you
Speaker 1: wanted to sit down and put stats against stats, you'd
Speaker 1: be very hard pressed to do.
Speaker 2: That, right, Sure, Taychab, Babe Ruth Christy Mathison, Like we
Speaker 2: know they were good, Like we're not knocking their talent,
Speaker 2: but who knows what it would have been like in
Speaker 2: a truly integrated league.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And actually it's funny you bring up Ty Cobb
Speaker 1: because I was like, oh, yeah, type Cobb was a
Speaker 1: huge racist. I wonder what he thought about the Negro leagues.
Speaker 1: And I looked it up and I found an article
Speaker 1: from a guy who argues that Ty Cobb was not
Speaker 1: the horrible racist that he's made out to be these days.
Speaker 2: Written by Jimmy Cobb.
Speaker 1: There he found, well, he actually did cite his son,
Speaker 1: and I think his son's name.
Speaker 2: Might be jim Really yeah, oh wow.
Speaker 1: But the guy found an article from maybe the fifties
Speaker 1: or something, nineteen fifty two where Ty Cobb is quoted
Speaker 1: at length coming out in favor of integration in Aralia baseball, Yeah,
Speaker 1: saying like, of course these guys should play as long
Speaker 1: as you know, they conduct themselves like professional baseball players,
Speaker 1: Like why would they not be able to play. I'm
Speaker 1: totally in favor of it.
Speaker 2: Interesting, like, did Ty Cobb say this? I think that
Speaker 2: bears more research. Yeah, you know, because he was supposedly
Speaker 2: very racist.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not what this guy says. All right, well
Speaker 1: I'm going to look into That's not what it is,
Speaker 1: so says.
Speaker 2: I'm not doubting you, of course, I just wanted.
Speaker 1: Sure know I'm with you. I understand.
Speaker 2: So we talked about the integration of the Negro leagues,
Speaker 2: which is awesome. Pretty soon other leagues form, not just teams. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there was one right here in the South, the Negro
Speaker 2: Southern League, with teams from right here in Atlanta.
Speaker 1: Dude, do you know the Atlanta team played directly.
Speaker 2: Across the street ponstan Lyon Park.
Speaker 1: Yeah, where there's now a Staples and a home depot
Speaker 1: in a pet Smart.
Speaker 2: At a Whole Foods.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: How like funny is that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you walk into Whole Foods and listen, you
Speaker 1: can hear the ghost of a back cracking on a ball.
Speaker 2: Yeah. This. I don't think this was the first team
Speaker 2: in Atlanta that played in the Negro Southern League because
Speaker 2: they folded that same year. But the Atlanta Black Crackers
Speaker 2: we also had the Atlanta Crackers, which was the white team.
Speaker 2: We had the Atlanta Black Crackers. And it sounds funny
Speaker 2: that we say Ponce de Leon not pontste Lyon, but
Speaker 2: that's how we say it here. It's the street that
Speaker 2: fronts our office building.
Speaker 1: Ponce de Leon himself with a punch you in the
Speaker 1: stomach if you heard you say his name like that though.
Speaker 2: But that's the street in Atlanta that fronts our office
Speaker 2: And if you go and look on the internet, you
Speaker 2: can see these awesome pictures of this cool little baseball
Speaker 2: stadium right there, hundreds of feet from where we sit. Yeah,
Speaker 2: really neat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but now you.
Speaker 2: Have Whole Foods.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now you can just have to listen close.
Speaker 2: Seven dollars for artists and mayonnaise.
Speaker 1: If you're lucky. Seven dollars.
Speaker 2: Oh that's just for the the just for one smear, Yeah,
Speaker 2: just one smear.
Speaker 1: Did you hear? Whole Foods got caught like with uncalibrated
Speaker 1: scales for their hot bar stuff.
Speaker 2: Like it's not already expensive night, Yeah, that's that crazy.
Speaker 1: I expect a lot more from them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, never get anything with bones at one
Speaker 2: of those oh never?
Speaker 1: Or liquid?
Speaker 2: What a waste. Yeah, you throw half of that chicken
Speaker 2: leg away? Yeah you paid for it? Sure, or just
Speaker 2: you know, grind that chicken bone up and eat it
Speaker 2: and get your money's.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like peel off with your teeth, spit the meat
Speaker 1: into your little basket, and throw the bone back into
Speaker 1: the hot bar.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh I didn't think about that. Sure, that's great idea.
Speaker 1: Then you can say I'm no chump.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just go around screaming not paying for that bone.
Speaker 2: All right, So where are we? Where the Negro Southern
Speaker 2: League folded? The Eastern Colored League opened in nineteen twenty three,
Speaker 2: and then finally in nineteen twenty eight, the American Negro
Speaker 2: League formed, And that was, uh, that was when things
Speaker 2: like they called eventually the American Negro League and the
Speaker 2: American I'm sorry, the National Negro League, the majors of
Speaker 2: the Negro leagues. Right like that was where the krim
Speaker 2: Dela crime played.
Speaker 1: And everything's going pretty smoothly except two things happen. Right
Speaker 1: there was even like a Negro League World Series. It
Speaker 1: has a best of nine. The Kansas City was really Yeah,
Speaker 1: the Kansas the City Monarchs narrowly beat the Hilldale team
Speaker 1: they're from Darby, Pennsylvania, which I guess is near Philadelphia,
Speaker 1: in the first one in nineteen twenty four, So there's
Speaker 1: like there's a there's these leagues have established themselves by
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty four, they have their own world series going, right,
Speaker 1: But just within a few years there are a couple
Speaker 1: of hits to the league that ultimately led to the
Speaker 1: Negro Majors disbanding. One is that Rube Foster suffered a
Speaker 1: gas poisoning in a hotel room. Yeah, in a hotel
Speaker 1: room in Indianapolis. He was found unconscious. And there's some
Speaker 1: theory that like everyone believed in ghosts and spirits and
Speaker 1: mediums in the nineteenth century because they were all being
Speaker 1: poisoned by the natural gas that was like leaking into
Speaker 1: their kitchens and homes all the time. Right, Well, this
Speaker 1: guy had like an acute poisoning and was found unconscious.
Speaker 1: And after that, when he regained consciousness and his nurse
Speaker 1: back to health, he lost his mind and he just
Speaker 1: kept getting worse and worse. And by nineteen twenty five,
Speaker 1: I think has happened in nineteen twenty four, nineteen twenty five,
Speaker 1: he was institutionalized. Yeah, and by nineteen thirty he died
Speaker 1: of a heart attack at age fifty one. And again,
Speaker 1: his guidance was so integral in this first incarnation of
Speaker 1: the Negro leagues that you know, when he was institutionalized,
Speaker 1: obviously they weren't like, well, what does the league do next? Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was in an institution, and the league started to
Speaker 1: falter and fall apart, and eventually that coupled with the
Speaker 1: depression and the on side of the depression, Yeah, really
Speaker 1: kind of led to the unraveling of the first Negro League.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this the Major League Baseball site. You know,
Speaker 2: these were they profited on certain days of the week.
Speaker 2: Sundays were big days because they were played double headers.
Speaker 2: But the fact is Black Americans didn't have a lot
Speaker 2: of expendable money to throw at going to baseball, even
Speaker 2: though they're you know, pretty cheap. That was commiserate with
Speaker 2: what people made at the time.
Speaker 1: Unless you were one of the Walker brothers whose dad
Speaker 1: was a physician.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they probably a little money.
Speaker 1: Sure, they were playing, so I'm sure their parents got
Speaker 1: him for free. Probably, So so it's all just a
Speaker 1: moot point.
Speaker 2: I wonder if they did get free family tickets back then,
Speaker 2: I would hope.
Speaker 1: So that's got to be as old as tickets, right,
Speaker 1: probably we got to do an episode on tickets guess lists.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they were making a little money on Sundays.
Speaker 2: They weren't hugely profitable overall, even though they were known
Speaker 2: as somewhat successful.
Speaker 1: Like, no, a lot of these guys were still barnstorming
Speaker 1: on their off days.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And these are the players, you know, trying to
Speaker 2: make ends meet, like the owners themselves were struggling here
Speaker 2: and there. White people came to see games sometimes, especially
Speaker 2: when they were exhibition games against white teams, right, because
Speaker 2: they love to go out there and see the see
Speaker 2: something they had never seen before. Yeah, which many times
Speaker 2: was the black team mopping the floor with the white team.
Speaker 2: Although it seemed pretty evenly matched, like from what I gathered,
Speaker 2: it wasn't like lopsided one way or the other. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like they were good competitive games.
Speaker 1: Yeah. There are plenty of white players who are better
Speaker 1: than the black players, and there are plenty of black
Speaker 1: players who are better than white players. Yeah. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: would say evenly match is a good way to put
Speaker 1: so if you had an integrated league, you would get
Speaker 1: the best of both.
Speaker 2: Right, which is eventually what we got.
Speaker 1: Plus also in some of these cities, Chuck, These there
Speaker 1: were not just baseball was segregated, but just within the
Speaker 1: city you had a white team and you had a
Speaker 1: black team.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: And that's that's evidence in the names of some of
Speaker 1: the black teams, like the Black Crackers, the Black Yankees.
Speaker 1: There were the Yankees and then there were the Crackers.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So if you were a white player or a white person,
Speaker 1: you're probably a fan of the white team and you
Speaker 1: weren't going and watching the black teams play.
Speaker 2: Right. So they list out four things here on the site.
Speaker 2: They say the two leagues, the American and National Negro
Speaker 2: Leagues were northern and basically city dwelling teams. Couple that
Speaker 2: with there weren't a lot of black people living in
Speaker 2: northern cities at the time. The South was, you know,
Speaker 2: was way more well I want to say integrated, but
Speaker 2: it wasn't integrated. Way more black people living in the
Speaker 2: South at the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is I wonder why the Southern Negro League
Speaker 1: didn't take off like a rocket then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean probably for the other reasons, like you
Speaker 2: couldn't afford to go to the games and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2: Black people that were in the North didn't have a
Speaker 2: whole lot of money, and so basically all that adds
Speaker 2: up to not a lot of audience buying tickets, and
Speaker 2: the only way to keep a league afloat is to
Speaker 2: sell tickets and to sell concessions, same as it is today.
Speaker 2: So all those things couple with Rube Foster and the depression,
Speaker 2: their greatest champion and probably sharpest mind sadly succumbing to
Speaker 2: mental illness and then the depression, and that was the
Speaker 2: end of the beginning of the negro leagues, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was the end of the first one. Yes,
Speaker 1: and there were more to come, and we'll talk about
Speaker 1: it right after this stoff, We Josh shop definitely should
Speaker 1: drop large holds of each other. Y s k.
Speaker 2: All right, So, uh it didn't take long. Uh the
Speaker 2: old saying you can't keep a good man down. People
Speaker 2: wanted to play baseball, they were good at it. They
Speaker 2: thought there was more money to be made in leagues.
Speaker 2: And so what happens is these numbers guys get involved,
Speaker 2: and a numbers man is the numbers game was basically
Speaker 2: like an illegal, unsanctioned street lottery, right, So numbers guys
Speaker 2: had a lot of money and some of them said,
Speaker 2: you know what, let's put money into starting baseballs and leagues.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And one guy in particular in Pittsburgh, Gus Greenley, great name.
Speaker 2: He was a bar owner in Pittsburgh. He bought the
Speaker 2: Pittsburgh Crawfords in nineteen thirty one. He said, all got
Speaker 2: a team, but I don't have a league. So two
Speaker 2: years later he formed the second Negro National League, and
Speaker 2: other numbers guys bought in, and all of a sudden
Speaker 2: they had another league going.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this basically kicked off what's known as the
Speaker 1: Golden Age of the Negro leagues. Yeah, starting about nineteen
Speaker 1: thirty one, thirty two, thirty three, when these other teams
Speaker 1: came about, and Greenley's team himself, was it his? No,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it would have been right across the river,
Speaker 1: the Homestead Grays.
Speaker 2: Yeah. They eventually migrated back to Pittsburgh. Over to Pittsburgh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they were the same team that went from
Speaker 1: one town to another. They weren't rivals.
Speaker 2: No, I think there was still the other Pittsburgh team,
Speaker 2: But from what I understand, the Homestead Grays eventually became
Speaker 2: part of Pittsburgh. Okay, or maybe there was another team
Speaker 2: I'm not sure, but I do know they eventually went to.
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh because you know Homestead, We've been there. We did
Speaker 1: a show there. Yeah yeah, okay, and I was like.
Speaker 2: Are we going to the right place when the car
Speaker 2: was taking me.
Speaker 1: So Homestead used to have not just a team, they
Speaker 1: used to have the best Negro League team possibly ever.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, wait easy.
Speaker 1: For nine consecutive years they won the Pennant, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, nine years in a row. Josh gibbson Cool, Papa Bell,
Speaker 2: and Buck Leonard some of their stars.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just some of them. In nineteen thirty five, they
Speaker 1: had no less than five future Hall of famers on
Speaker 1: it on the team. Five.
Speaker 2: That's amazing.
Speaker 1: Point to a team that has five future Hall of
Speaker 1: famers on it now or ever?
Speaker 2: Did well? So some of the Yankees teams did over
Speaker 2: the years. But like, I don't think anything right now.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, now, like even the best team right now
Speaker 2: doesn't have five future Hall of Famers.
Speaker 1: Certainly not the Braves, we don't have one.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I could see Freddy Freeman hitting the Hall of Fame
Speaker 1: one day. Oh really, I haven't been watching the last
Speaker 1: couple of seasons.
Speaker 2: I mean, he's our best player, but because Fred the
Speaker 2: best player on the worst team in baseball, not very
Speaker 2: good casey at the bat. All right, So we did
Speaker 2: mention that there were exhibition games going on, and things
Speaker 2: really picked up with the exhibition games now because they
Speaker 2: were a little well funded, and this is when white
Speaker 2: players would come and see the teams playing. I mean,
Speaker 2: it was basically more popular than ever in both communities.
Speaker 1: Yes, and we said that they had the Negro League
Speaker 1: World Series going on, right, Yeah, there was actually another
Speaker 1: game that came out of this. I think it was
Speaker 1: it might have been Gus Greenley, I think it was
Speaker 1: who came up with this is the East versus West
Speaker 1: All Stars game. Yeah, and that became bigger than the
Speaker 1: World Series and whatever was in the Negro League.
Speaker 2: It was huge.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that became kind of like the de facto
Speaker 1: big game of the year rather than the World Series
Speaker 1: for Yeah, and they played it every year I think
Speaker 1: in Kamiski Field. Oh really, yeah, in Chicago, because you
Speaker 1: know East East West in Chicago. That's right, that's what
Speaker 1: it says on the T shirts.
Speaker 2: At least, so players are starting to make some like
Speaker 2: the top players are starting to make some pretty good
Speaker 2: money at the time. You can't go any further without
Speaker 2: talking about Satchel Page Leroy, Statchel Paige. Dude, he was
Speaker 2: a pitcher, very interesting dude.
Speaker 1: Maybe the greatest picture of all time in the sport
Speaker 1: of baseball.
Speaker 2: Maybe he was eccentric, he was an entertainer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was like the Usain Bolt of his day.
Speaker 1: People loved him. Oh okay, except he didn't like to run.
Speaker 1: That would makes it a little different.
Speaker 2: Even said he didn't like to run.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well was his quote. He said that training for
Speaker 1: me is rising gently from the bench.
Speaker 2: Back onto the bench.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: So he had have you ever seen video or I
Speaker 2: guess you know film of him pitching.
Speaker 1: Yeah, with those old timy baggy baseball pants.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the style. But his he had a
Speaker 2: weird wind up. He had this sort of double windmill
Speaker 2: that he would do with his pitching arm. And then
Speaker 2: when he was younger, he had a great fastball, and
Speaker 2: he had he was noted for his control like Greg Maddox,
Speaker 2: like in his pinpoint control. Yeah, like supposedly could just
Speaker 2: put a baseball within a half inch of where he
Speaker 2: wanted it to be, which is a big big deal
Speaker 2: for a pitcher. Sure, as he lost his fastball. Over
Speaker 2: the years, he learned basically every pitch under the sun. Like,
Speaker 2: he pitched until he was fifty nine years old.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he first signed in the majors, White majors at
Speaker 1: forty two.
Speaker 2: Yeah, forty two, forty two year old rookie.
Speaker 1: He was. He's the oldest rookie ever in the in
Speaker 1: Major League Baseball. And I think the oldest pitcher ever
Speaker 1: oh as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he was even older than Gaylord Perry.
Speaker 1: How old was he?
Speaker 2: He was in his forties. Oh, like Nolan Ryan, Gaylord
Speaker 2: Perry a few pres Nolan Ryan made it to fifty. No,
Speaker 2: not fifty, but he came close. Like pitchers notably have
Speaker 2: been a little older, which is crazy because like they're arms. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but they're not you know, they're not like running around
Speaker 2: and batting like other players. Yeah, but you're right, like
Speaker 2: Freddie Freeman, like the stress on the stress on the
Speaker 2: arm is amazing.
Speaker 1: So one thing that that was problematic or is problematic
Speaker 1: when you're going back and looking at the negro leagues
Speaker 1: is that a lot of teams were allowed to, depending
Speaker 1: on the league, were allowed to set their own schedules. Yeah,
Speaker 1: stats weren't kept quite as well. As they were in
Speaker 1: the white leagues.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't know Satchel Page's real lifetime stats, no,
Speaker 2: but in full.
Speaker 1: There are some estimates.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they are high. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1: So the one that I saw is that Satchel Page
Speaker 1: had I think it was in this article on MLB
Speaker 1: dot com, which eventually will say the author's name.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they said that he had three hundred career shutouts.
Speaker 1: Three hundred career shutouts, and this guy says in italics,
Speaker 1: not wins, Yeah, shutouts, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah. If you don't know baseball, shutout means you have
Speaker 2: pitched a game where no one scored a run. Right,
Speaker 2: And back then there were probably complete game shutouts, meaning
Speaker 2: he never came out and was relieved by another pitcher.
Speaker 1: Right, he would have pitched like all nine innings.
Speaker 2: Back at in the day. They used to do that
Speaker 2: way more than they do now.
Speaker 1: Okay, so he had three hundred career shutouts, fifteen hundred
Speaker 1: wins is the estimate that that's on MLB dot com.
Speaker 2: Yeah, to put that into perspective for non baseball fans, again,
Speaker 2: if you have three hundred wins wins, not shutouts, win,
Speaker 2: then you're a Hall of Famer. Yeah, And In fact,
Speaker 2: they don't think there will ever be another three hundred
Speaker 2: game winner again because of there are more pitchers in
Speaker 2: the rotation now. They usually have five guys instead of four.
Speaker 2: They don't pitches deep into games, they wrest them a
Speaker 2: lot more. So it's just we may not ever see
Speaker 2: that happen again, just because of the way it's built to.
Speaker 1: Also put in perspective, cy Young is regarded as one
Speaker 1: of the best pitchers ever in Major League Baseball, named
Speaker 1: the Top Award after him exactly. He had seventy six shutouts,
Speaker 1: which is amazing. He had the most wins ever still
Speaker 1: in Major League Baseball at five to eleven, So Satchel
Speaker 1: Page had conceivably three times more wins, yeah, than the
Speaker 1: highest win count ever in Major League.
Speaker 2: And that's counting his entire career, I assume, which again
Speaker 2: was very very long.
Speaker 1: Sure it was a very long career, but that just
Speaker 1: makes it all the more amazing, especially as he gets older.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like let's say that people don't say, don't count
Speaker 2: the negro leagues as being in the top league at
Speaker 2: the time, Like cut it in half, and he's still
Speaker 2: way ahead of everybody else. Yeah, if you subtract fifty
Speaker 2: percent of everything he did, and.
Speaker 1: The fact that he sat in a rocking chair in
Speaker 1: the dugout and I had like a huge personality. It's
Speaker 1: just awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So he learned all sorts of pitches. By the
Speaker 2: end of his career, he was pitching knuckleballs, and he
Speaker 2: was famous for the hesitation pitch, which he invented, which
Speaker 2: was when he got to the White major leagues, they
Speaker 2: were like, that's illegal. You can't do that. It's called
Speaker 2: the bulk yeah, and he was like, all right, well.
Speaker 1: No, He's like, no, it's called the hesitation pitch, don't
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: It was very sneaky. You know, it's like you act
Speaker 2: like you're pitching, then you stop. Because he was like,
Speaker 2: you know, I got guys up there that are starting
Speaker 2: to swing because I'm so fast, Like when they see
Speaker 2: me winding up, they're starting to swing. Yeah, So if
Speaker 2: I just put a little slight pause there, then they're
Speaker 2: swinging and then the ball comes. So it was a
Speaker 2: very very tricky little pitch. And he was making between
Speaker 2: thirty and fi forty grand a year and the Negro
Speaker 2: and this is also with appearances and stuff like that,
Speaker 2: but in the Negro leagues, which is about half a
Speaker 2: million dollars today. Yeah, amazing amount of money at the time.
Speaker 1: You know, and those appearances. If you were a team
Speaker 1: owner that had Satchel Page on your team, you might
Speaker 1: let him go make some scratch and probably take a
Speaker 1: cut yourself by lending him to another team whose attendance
Speaker 1: was struggling. Yeah, And all you had to do was
Speaker 1: advertise for a week that Satchel Paige was going to
Speaker 1: be pitching one day, and you would sell out so
Speaker 1: he would help other Negro League teams that were right
Speaker 1: that were struggling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it could to be a draw.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And here's one little cool thing about our own Atlanta
Speaker 2: Braves and nineteen sixty eight, Satchel Page was lacking one
Speaker 2: more season to get his Major League Baseball pension and
Speaker 2: was out of the league and retired, and the Atlanta
Speaker 2: Braves signed him as a player coach.
Speaker 1: Like Terry Pendleton.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was never a player coach, was he?
Speaker 1: No? But here's a player and then a coach.
Speaker 2: Oh oh, yeah, Pete Rose was a player coach, was
Speaker 2: he really?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: He managed the Reds and played for them. I did
Speaker 2: not and bet on them. Yeah, but they signed him
Speaker 2: to a one year deal so he could get his
Speaker 2: major league Baseball pension. That is awesome, which is really cool.
Speaker 2: Clot What year was that, nineteen sixty eight, that's really cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, go brave.
Speaker 2: So if you see a picture. When I saw a
Speaker 2: picture of him in the Braves uniform, I was like,
Speaker 2: wait a minute, he never played for the Braves and
Speaker 2: he really didn't. It was it was sort of, you know,
Speaker 2: just a little sneaky way to get him in there.
Speaker 2: That's cool, which is great. All right, So Satchel Page
Speaker 2: is killing it. Other players are killing it. It would
Speaker 2: not be long before somebody in the white leagues, somebody
Speaker 2: said the talent is too good. Somebody has to be
Speaker 2: the first to make this move and break the color barrier.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, you know that was the thing like this.
Speaker 1: The Negro leagues were, ultimately, as we'll find out, victims
Speaker 1: of their own success. The players that they supported and
Speaker 1: brought into the game were of obvious major league caliber.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, in any major league. They were the best
Speaker 1: in the world. They were just playing on segregated teams.
Speaker 1: And so finally a group of people, but especially it
Speaker 1: usually comes in the form of one guy named branch Rickey. Yeah,
Speaker 1: did Tom Hanks play him. No, Harrison Ford.
Speaker 2: No, Maybe, well, I didn't see the most recent jacket
Speaker 2: Robinson was Arison Ford. Maybe I've seen him portrayed in
Speaker 2: other movies.
Speaker 1: I can't tell if it was him or not because
Speaker 1: the actor didn't have a diamond studded earring in, but
Speaker 1: Harrison Ford could have taken it out for the role.
Speaker 1: This guy named branch Ricky. It was an exact get
Speaker 1: ever a manager for the Dodgers.
Speaker 2: He was he was with he was an executive Dodgers
Speaker 2: and he said, and this was when they were in Brooklyn, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: he said, this is ridiculous.
Speaker 1: There we need to break this color barrier. There's plenty
Speaker 1: of great players out there that I want to sign.
Speaker 1: I'm going to break this unspoken rule. And he looked
Speaker 1: around to find a player who was not only good,
Speaker 1: but who he felt could withstand this horrendous reception that
Speaker 1: whoever the first black player would be would definitely receive
Speaker 1: and who did receive and he found it in the
Speaker 1: in the person of Jackie Robinson.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's a huge point because, like I said,
Speaker 2: Roy Campanella was probably better player at the time than
Speaker 2: Jackie Robinson. But if you see the Jackie Robinson story.
Speaker 2: I didn't see the recent one, like I said, but
Speaker 2: I just know a lot about his story. He was
Speaker 2: the right guy. He had the temperament, he had the leadership.
Speaker 1: Roy Campanello take your head off, Well yeah he did.
Speaker 2: He was a tough guy. But Jackie Robinson was the
Speaker 2: man in every way. And we should also shout out
Speaker 2: to the road being paved by people like Joe Louis
Speaker 2: and Jesse Owens before Jackie Robinson. Yeah, as far as
Speaker 2: just white America accepting mainstream black athletes into their lives.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't know if it was on this
Speaker 1: or on there's a site called Negro League Baseball dot
Speaker 1: com that has a really good article called the Negro
Speaker 1: League Baseball one oh one or something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's the basics. There's a definite story to the whole thing, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But they point out that probably more than anything that
Speaker 1: helped break the color barrier was blacks serving in World
Speaker 1: War Two, oh yeah, serving alongside white soldiers and stories
Speaker 1: coming back from the front of like, hey, these guys
Speaker 1: are killing Germans just as fast as any any white guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And.
Speaker 1: At the time America was like, well, we that people exactly.
Speaker 1: So when they returned, the black soldiers came home to
Speaker 1: a different America that they helped change by fighting in
Speaker 1: World War Two.
Speaker 2: That's pretty cool.
Speaker 1: And I mean that the timing of this apparently is
Speaker 1: not coincidental that Jackie Robinson was signed in nineteen forty six,
Speaker 1: a year after World War Two went for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, uh so, branch Ricky was. He was a very
Speaker 2: puritanical guy. He would often lecture players on sex and
Speaker 2: drinking and stuff, and he was he wasn't just some benevolent,
Speaker 2: benevolent champion of the black man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's a good point, man, because a lot
Speaker 1: of times stories like this end up being about the
Speaker 1: guy who took the giants and paved the way for
Speaker 1: the black player. But he did, he did, but he
Speaker 1: was an ideal emphasis. It's just too easy sometimes for
Speaker 1: the emphasis to go on to that where it's like, well,
Speaker 1: the black player like came. He was one of the
Speaker 1: greatest baseball players of all time.
Speaker 2: Exactly. Let's let's put it this way. If branch Rickey
Speaker 2: hadn't wanted to sell tickets by fielding a good team,
Speaker 2: he would have never signed Jackie Robinson. He was a businessman.
Speaker 2: The Dodgers sucked at the time, but he was an idealist.
Speaker 2: I mean he was very much like, no, like this
Speaker 2: is wrong and they should be allowed to play.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so okay, So he was a complex human being
Speaker 1: like all other human beings. Yeah, yeah, he can't just
Speaker 1: be shoehorned into an easy caricature. No, that's great. So
Speaker 1: branch Ricky complicated human being. He selected Jackie Robinson and
Speaker 1: it was a great selection.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Jackie Robinson played one year in the Miners, which
Speaker 2: was ridiculous. They should have just like he spent his
Speaker 2: entire life playing in the miners, they should have just
Speaker 2: promoted him right away. But I think they just wanted
Speaker 2: to ease that transition. He won the batting title in
Speaker 2: the Miners his only year there, and then one Rookie
Speaker 2: of the Year in his very first year with the
Speaker 2: Brooklyn Dodgers. Yeah, and that was April fifteenth, nineteen forty seven,
Speaker 2: was when he made his DAB, which was very, very
Speaker 2: historic day. Yeah, an amazing day that Major League Baseball
Speaker 2: is really like honored Jackie Robinson to the fullest.
Speaker 1: Now, yeah, they should great, but Jackie Robinson definitely threw
Speaker 1: up in the floodgates within four months of Jackie Robinson
Speaker 1: being signed or no, I guess actually being called up
Speaker 1: to the majors. Yeah, two other guys were signed, both
Speaker 1: in July, and I think that year there were a
Speaker 1: number of other black players suddenly playing for white Major
Speaker 1: League Baseball, which is suddenly not now just major League Baseball,
Speaker 1: not white major League Baseball, that's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Larry Dobie, Cleveland Indians, Willard Brown, the Saint Louis Browns,
Speaker 2: Henry Hank Thompson, the Saint Louis Browns, Dan Bankhead, Leroy
Speaker 2: Satchel Page made it finally, and of course Rore Campanella,
Speaker 2: among others. These were the first African Americans in Major
Speaker 2: League baseball, and by nineteen fifty two, just a few
Speaker 2: years later, there were one hundred and fifty black players,
Speaker 2: and by nineteen fifty four, all but four major league
Speaker 2: teams had black players. There were a few holdouts.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Boston Red Sox notably were the last. They
Speaker 1: waited until nineteen fifty nine, thirteen years after Jackie Robinson's
Speaker 1: debut season. Yeah, in the miners.
Speaker 2: So with the signing of Jackie Robinson and all the
Speaker 2: players to follow like you hinted at earlier, and like
Speaker 2: this article plainly says, it was a very bittersweet end.
Speaker 2: And one way, it was great. The color barrier was smashed,
Speaker 2: the league was being integrated, and they were getting their due,
Speaker 2: although it was a struggle. But in another way, it
Speaker 2: was also sad that this league that had so much
Speaker 2: gumption and such a great like we'll do it ourselves
Speaker 2: then attitude and empower these men to play in, these
Speaker 2: people to own these teams and start their own leagues.
Speaker 2: So it was definitely like a weird time in history.
Speaker 2: It is, like I think nowadays there's much more of
Speaker 2: a reverence and a bit of mourning for the disappearance
Speaker 2: of that league. But you know, in another way, like
Speaker 2: I said, it was smashing, the color barrier was way
Speaker 2: more sure, way more better. I just went into hulk speak.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it would have been a much more satisfying
Speaker 1: end of the whole thing if the Negro leagues had
Speaker 1: poached the best players in the White Major League Baseball.
Speaker 2: Oh. Actually, you know what the best possible thing could
Speaker 2: have been was if the White major leagues absorbed those
Speaker 2: teams and owners and ownership. It's part of one big league.
Speaker 2: Nice but they're like, no, we're just going to take
Speaker 2: your players.
Speaker 1: Yeah, give them to us.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So that is Negro League Baseball, the history of it.
Speaker 2: YEP officially disbanded in nineteen forty eight, and article says
Speaker 2: into the nineteen fifties there were still a few teams
Speaker 2: playing here and there, and in the early nineteen sixties
Speaker 2: even that was like one final team or I guess
Speaker 2: one final pair of teams. I guess they had to
Speaker 2: play somebody still playing.
Speaker 1: Or they could scrimmage themselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It says the Negro American League was the last
Speaker 2: to throw in the town in the early sixties.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So yeah, more than one team.
Speaker 1: And this article makes a point today, or at least
Speaker 1: in twenty twelve, major League Baseball was forty percent non white,
Speaker 1: which I was like, what I would have guessed It
Speaker 1: was the opposite of that that I would have guessed.
Speaker 1: Six percent of Major League Baseball players are white.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, there's a big push I think,
Speaker 2: like the one of the least represented demographics now in
Speaker 2: pro baseball or African Americans really, Yeah, partially because of
Speaker 2: the rise of Latino players and then partially because they
Speaker 2: there's not a big a push to play baseball these
Speaker 2: days as kids in America, and so there's a lot
Speaker 2: of concerted efforts to try and get baseball going again
Speaker 2: in black communities, which is awesome.
Speaker 1: Sure you know, yeah, I know. I was pushed by
Speaker 1: Dad's like get out there and get hitting the head
Speaker 1: with the ball.
Speaker 2: See, I wouldn't allowed. I had to play church softball,
Speaker 2: so lamb.
Speaker 1: So then the color bearers broken. And now the last
Speaker 1: vestige of any sort of color issue is the Native
Speaker 1: American slurs that are rampant in all sports as far
Speaker 1: as teams go.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Atlanta brave.
Speaker 1: Once we get past that, maybe it'll be finally totally legitimate.
Speaker 1: If you want to know more about the Negro Leagues,
Speaker 1: you can type those words in the search bar at
Speaker 1: HowStuffWorks dot com. You can also go check out this
Speaker 1: amazing article called Negro Leagues a Kaleidoscopic Review. It's on
Speaker 1: MLB dot and check out negro League Baseball dot com.
Speaker 1: They have like all sorts of great profiles on the
Speaker 1: players and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: Oh we never said the nicknames. Oh yeah, so we
Speaker 2: rattle off a few of those. Sure, all right, boy,
Speaker 2: these are some good nicknames. How about Jelly Gardner or Spoony.
Speaker 1: Palm, Turkey Sterns.
Speaker 2: Turkey Sterns, he's the Hall of Famer Coppernie Thompson or
Speaker 2: steel Arm Davis.
Speaker 1: I think you mentioned cool Papa Bell.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Cool Papa Bell.
Speaker 1: That is the greatest name ever.
Speaker 2: Uh, Possum Polls, Ace Adams, King, Tutt, Smoky Joe Williams,
Speaker 2: Bullet Joe Rogan, not yeah Joe Rogan. Did you know
Speaker 2: that Rats Henderson boy Turkey Sterns. That might be the best.
Speaker 2: That might be my new hotel pseudonym, Cool Papa Joe. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but no one to buy that at the hotel registry.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, if you go up and Tray Sterns, they definitely.
Speaker 2: Go for Those are great nicknames, all right?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, So now that we said Turkey Stearns,
Speaker 1: it's time for listener mail.
Speaker 2: This one I'm gonna call short and sweet. What do
Speaker 2: you call it when you remember something with a pneumatic device?
Speaker 1: Uh? No, mnemonic. Pneumatic is when you remember it while
Speaker 1: you're pumping air up and down?
Speaker 2: Was it nomadic? You remember it while you're wandering around? Mnemonic?
Speaker 2: Of course? I feel like a dummy. Howdy Josh and Chuck.
Speaker 2: Friend recommended your show to me recently, and I love it.
Speaker 2: You satisfy all my nerdy entertainment requirements. While I'm at work.
Speaker 2: You seem to have a bit of trouble recalling the
Speaker 2: order of h taxonomic taxonomic categories. Boy, I'm gonna have
Speaker 2: trouble in this next show during Wooly Mammos, not wooly Mammas,
Speaker 2: as our typo originally said.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was my fault.
Speaker 2: That's right, you just forgot to know, Wally. Here's an
Speaker 2: easy memory trick we learned in high school biology. Kings
Speaker 2: play chess on fine green silk. Kingdom phylum, class, order, family,
Speaker 2: genus species. I love that stuff because I will never
Speaker 2: forget it.
Speaker 1: Now. That's not an mnemonic device, is it.
Speaker 2: It's pneumatic. I have no idea why this is still
Speaker 2: in my head over ten years later. Well that's exactly why. Sure, Katie,
Speaker 2: So hope that helps. And that is Katie from West Texas.
Speaker 1: Thanks a lot, Katie from West Texas. We appreciate that
Speaker 1: Kings play chess on green.
Speaker 2: Silk, fine green silk.
Speaker 1: I'll never remember the fine party. If you want to
Speaker 1: get in touch with us, you can send us an email.
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Speaker 1: Know dot com.
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